Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

We can’t confuse what’s necessary to win elections with the policies that we want to implement when we do.

Disappointing to see gov. newsom with his finger to the wind.

Since when do we limit our critiques to things we could do better ourselves?

The republican ‘Pastor’ of the House is an odious authoritarian little creep.

Michigan is a great lesson for Dems everywhere: when you have power…use it!

“Alexa, change the president.”

Stop using mental illness to avoid talking about armed white supremacy.

An almost top 10,000 blog!

Reality always gets a vote in the end.

They traffic in fear. it is their only currency. if we are fearful, they are winning.

Rupert, come get your orange boy, you petrified old dinosaur turd.

You don’t get rid of your umbrella while it’s still raining.

A snarling mass of vitriolic jackals

“woke” is the new caravan.

With all due respect and assumptions of good faith, please fuck off into the sun.

Nothing worth doing is easy.

Donald Trump found guilty as fuck – May 30, 2024!

America is going up in flames. The NYTimes fawns over MAGA celebrities. No longer a real newspaper.

Motto for the House: Flip 5 and lose none.

“In the future, this lab will be a museum. do not touch it.”

It’s pointless to bring up problems that can only be solved with a time machine.

Wow, I can’t imagine what it was like to comment in morse code.

I really should read my own blog.

Republicans: The threats are dire, but my tickets are non-refundable!

You are here: Home / TV & Movies / Movies / Open Thread: Tilda Swinton Defends Her Title…

Open Thread: Tilda Swinton Defends Her Title…

by | 233 Comments

This post is in: , ,

… as the A-list actor who will go wherever the story takes her.

Not 100% sure about Scruffy Cumberbatch — the quick glimpses here seem a little too Christian-Bale-Dark-Knight adjacent — but then, I’m not the target audience.

This EW slideshow is a pretty good summary, from my childhood memories of Steve Ditko’s Man of Mystery comic. Enthusiasts, feel free to tell me how wrong I am!

Reader Interactions

233Comments

  3. 3.

    Belafon

    Considering his story is “arrogant doctor loses it all when his partying destroys his ability and then gains it back by going mystic,” Strange owned the redemption arc long before Nolan’s Batman.

  6. 6.

    Gin & Tonic

    Great. I have no idea at all what any of this is about. I think I’ll go drink instead.

  8. 8.

    raven

    @Gin & Tonic: I know how you feel. I was in a conference session today about digital badges and gaming in online courses. The presenter said 80% of people with mobile devices have games on them. That would explain why we have post after post about that stuff about which I have not a clue. I don’t like comics either. Xin Loi.

  9. 9.

    debbie

    @raven:

    I googled to see if I could figure out which movie you were referring to. I can’t believe how many she’s been in!

  13. 13.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    I am happy to report that I will get to hear my favorite guitar player and his band, which includes his songrwriting partner in their more famous band with her name) at The Brown Theatre in Louisville tomorrow night. I’ve never heard them, so it’s exciting to me. And Mr. Q also, though he’d rather just hear the two of them because he thinks she’s the better songwriter – in spite of the fact that she’s stated they write all the songs together, as the credits indicate.

  17. 17.

    Kropadope

    Not too familiar with Dr. Strange, but that was a good little teaser. Plus, I’ve loved Tilda Swinton ever since the Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe, I’ll catch any flick she’s in.

  21. 21.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    Rachel Maddow show showing Pete King of NY over a chyron that says “Sen. King (I–ME)”

  29. 29.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @redshirt: Isn’t King (Angus) something of an institution in Maine? be funnier if he (ETA: LePage) primaried Collins

  30. 30.

    redshirt

    So many of you may not be aware, there’s some controversy about Swinton’s casting for this role since the comic book character is an old Tibetan man.

    Leaving aside the political reality that Marvel (and most studios) will never mention Tibet in a movie for fear of being blocked from the Chinese market, is it racist that a white woman was cast in a role for an old Asian man?

  34. 34.

    Kropadope

    @Belafon: Yeah, but I didn’t really know who she was when Constantine came out. It’s always fun seeing her in an older movie from before I knew her name and going “Oh, yeah….” The Beach was another such movie.

  35. 35.

    Adam L Silverman

    @redshirt: How many is so many of us? Is it just the commenters on this thread? All the people that read Balloon Juice? A major metropolitan metropolis?

  39. 39.

    Kropadope

    @redshirt:

    is it racist that a white woman was cast in a role for an old Asian man?

    Depends on whom you ask, but if you’re gonna make a movie about comic book characters, does everything need to be the same as the comic book, detail for detail? That would be pretty boring if so.

  41. 41.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    @satby: It’s not bad, and I’m with you, but I’m on the fence about the wine. Suggestions welcome Y/N.

  42. 42.

    Emma

    @redshirt: no, it’s money. Never attribute any complicated emotion to an action if greed can describe it better. Besides, little Oriental guides have been done to the point of parody.

  43. 43.

    Adam L Silverman

    @redshirt: I was teasing – oh never mind.

    More seriously: Apparently Swinton or Feige or someone involved with Marvel Studios announced several months ago that in the cinematic universe continuity Ancient One is a title passed down, not a set specific person. This was the justification for the casting. Marvel has a history of dealing poorly with Asian and Asian American characters.
    io9.gizmodo.com/it-actually-really-really-sucks-that-tv-s-iron-fist-is-1762435382
    fusion.net/story/182560/psylocke-race-origin/

    As for not wanting to upset the PRC folks and mess up revenue from the Chinese market, all they had to do was move the Himalayan setting to one of the other three mountain kingdoms: Nepal, Bhutan, or Ladakh. The last one, Ladakh, would work well because it includes the Kuen Lun range, which is, if I’m recalling correctly, where Danny Rand becomes Iron Fist.

  44. 44.

    redshirt

    @Kropadope: It’s an issue with some of these comic book movies because a lot of the original source material is racist/sexist to our modern standards.

    To date, Marvel has been pretty faithful to the original storylines, but they’ve made changes – The Mandarin is a big time villain of Iron Man and was cast as Ben Kingsley in Iron Man 3, to much fan wailing. But what’s worse – playing to the caricature of the “Evil Yellowman”? Or subverting it with a white person?

    This debate flared up for the casting of the upcoming Neflix show “Iron Fist” as well, which originally is about a rich white guy who learns mystical martial arts in the Orient and then fights bad guys. It’s the Kung Fu trope, essentially.

    Playing to the domestic Chinese market is a factor.

  45. 45.

    David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch

    Kasich (the sane one) condescendingly asks Jewish scholars if they’re illiterate

    John Kasich’s travels in New York brought him yesterday to a Jewish bookstore, where he met students of the Talmud. Having thus met people who spend their entire day scrutinizing religious texts, Kasich’s reaction was to ask them if they were aware of facts about those texts that they probably knew as very small children. “They sold [Joseph] into slavery, and that’s how the Jews got to Egypt. Right? Did you know that?” For those who never attended Sunday school, this is a bit like visiting MIT, wandering into a physics lab, and asking people if they ever heard of this guy named Isaac Newton.

  47. 47.

    Adam L Silverman

    @efgoldman: I’m pretty sure Senator Cruz’s campaign has come out against underwear perverts. If one of our attorneys in residence looks hard enough, there must be a case he argued as solicitor general of Texas defending Texas’s anti-underwear pervert law or something.

  48. 48.

    redshirt

    @efgoldman: If you only knew the truth of your answer. There’s like 2 dozen super hero/star wars movies in the production pipeline. It’s going to be super heroes till like 2030 at least.

  49. 49.

    Kropadope

    @redshirt:

    But what’s worse – playing to the caricature of the “Evil Yellowman”? Or subverting it with a white person?

    I can understand being upset about that,, particularly if you’re a big fan of the Mandarin as originally conceived. Though, honestly, I liked the story about putting a fake terrorist in the media spotlight to hide other misdeeds.

  51. 51.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    This video is pretty remarkable, Kaisch’s tone is so…. bizarre, the distant uncle or mom’s new boyfriend trying too hard to relate to the kid who says he likes topic X. Or Rand Paul speaking at an HBCU, without the sing-song tone.

    John Kasich’s travels in New York brought him yesterday to a Jewish bookstore, where he met students of the Talmud. Having thus met people who spend their entire day scrutinizing religious texts, Kasich’s reaction was to ask them if they were aware of facts about those texts that they probably knew as very small children. “They sold [Joseph] into slavery, and that’s how the Jews got to Egypt. Right? Did you know that?” For those who never attended Sunday school, this is a bit like visiting MIT, wandering into a physics lab, and asking people if they ever heard of this guy named Isaac Newton.

  52. 52.

    redshirt

    @Kropadope: I loved how they used the Mandarin. It was a fantastic twist and a great character. But the original character has a long history and his organization – The Ten Rings – is in the movies. So there’s some rumors that the real Mandarin is still out there.

  53. 53.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    @David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch: Kay and I (and others too numerous to list, some of whom refer to him as the governor we voted against) keep telling people that he’s a self righteous thin-skinned asshole, who will soon be discovered as such by people outside the lower midwest.

  54. 54.

    RSA

    @redshirt:

    It’s an issue with some of these comic book movies because a lot of the original source material is racist/sexist to our modern standards.

    Yeah, they’re kind of stuck. It’s tough to make a movie about a Westerner going to Asia to learn mystical and magical skills–but let’s make sure we avoid any stereotypes!

  58. 58.

    Kropadope

    @RSA:

    Yeah, they’re kind of stuck. It’s tough to make a movie about a Westerner going to Asia to learn mystical and magical skills–but let’s make sure we avoid any stereotypes!

    There are mystical cultures the world over to borrow from. Would it be racist if Dr. Strange learned from Druids?

  59. 59.

    TheMightyTrowel

    @Kropadope: actually you could do some great old school anti-irish/welsh/scots druidic stereotyping if you wanted to go in for classic racism!

    ETA: would be nice to see them just let go of some of the older origin stories though – why not skip yet another white dude learns shit and avenges story in favour of Kamala Khan, for example?

  64. 64.

    gene108

    @redshirt:

    Weird sort of issue, because in one sense the movie expands the role for women in comic book / big budget action flicks, on the other hand you white wash an important character.

    Maybe should’ve used Chinese or Tiebetan woman?

  65. 65.

    redshirt

    @TheMightyTrowel: I think they’re going to get there eventually. Our Lord Feige has only recently been granted ABSOLUTE POWER and the Doctor Strange movie is a direct result, but also the upcoming Spider-Man movie too. There’s a Captain Marvel movie scheduled for a couple of years from now, and then after that they’re going to have to reboot everything, or come up with more new stuff. I’m betting on the new stuff, and Kamala Khan fits that perfectly.

    If a Squirrel Girl movie ever is released, I might die on the spot.

  67. 67.

    different-church-lady

    When are we finally getting around to Plastic Man? Jim Carey could probably do it without CGI.

  68. 68.

    Sloegin

    I’m hoping Dr. Strange will do a better treatment of non-Western characters and story tropes than say, The Temple of Doom, The Shadow, or The Golden Child. (Though I don’t know if you can set the bar any lower).

  69. 69.

    Gin & Tonic

    @efgoldman: Come on, dude, it’s like the greatest movie since the invention of the kinemascope or something. Haven’t you read anything?

  70. 70.

    redshirt

    @gene108: Precisely, it’s difficult either way. For instance, since the beginning Doctor Strange has had a literal manservant – Wong. For the movie, they cast the actor Benedict Wong for the role. Which is brilliant. But is that racist too?

  71. 71.

    Kropadope

    @redshirt: Why reboot? Why keep rebooting Spider Man, for example? He graduated college in the comics during the 70s, but can never seem to get past high school or early college in the movies. They have decades of stories and want to keep retelling the first like 20 issues.

  73. 73.

    Eric S.

    @efgoldman: I caught the last 30 minutes of Fury Road after too long at the bar. I’m going to reserve judgement but my drunk self was unimpressed.

  74. 74.

    Jeffro

    Off-Tilda-topic: can you believe how matter-of-factly this matter of fact is delivered?

    From the NYT’s article on Megyn Kelly meeting with Drumpf:

    Fox News has defended Ms. Kelly, at one point accusing Mr. Trump of harboring an “extreme, sick obsession” with her. But the network will face a different environment in the general election, when many viewers may expect the channel’s personalities to show allegiance to the Republican nominee.

    1) “…the network will face a different environment…” – and therefore should do what, alter its reporting of the facts and events of the campaign???
    wait…I think I have an answer to my questions
    2) “…when many viewers may expect the channel’s personalities to show allegiance to the Republican nominee.”
    oh well there you go, then.

    That’s just about as prima as you can facie the evidence that Fox is not a news organization, but a GOP propaganda channel. Beat ’em over the head with it, Dems!

  75. 75.

    Kropadope

    @redshirt:

    For instance, since the beginning Doctor Strange has had a literal manservant – Wong. For the movie, they cast the actor Benedict Wong for the role. Which is brilliant. But is that racist too?

    Well, the servant has to be something. We could make him white to not be racist, but that would be whitewashing two roles, so racist no matter what.

  77. 77.

    redshirt

    @Kropadope: Spider-Man has been in the creative hands of Sony since the first movie and every one since. Sony recently negotiated a deal whereby Marvel gets to use the character and create movies with him, with Sony getting the distribution rights. So yeah, it’s yet another reboot (the 3rd in 13 years), but rumors are it will be a “soft” reboot. For example, Spider-Man will appear in the forthcoming Captain America movie.

    Hopefully Uncle Ben doesn’t have to die again. Though he must if he’s to keep up with the Waynes.

  78. 78.

    Jeffro

    @Kropadope:

    Why keep rebooting Spider Man, for example?

    Because that’s the only way that “Spider-Man” works well…as an angsty, harried, hardworking, behind-on-his-bills teen or early 20-something. When he gets older, respectable, pot-bellied, settled, confident (or completely defeated), we’re talking an entirely different character.

  80. 80.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    @p.a.: That was pretty weird that I was so coy instead of just saying the Dave Rawlings Machine, but honestly I wasn’t sure anyone other than raven know the name if I did. The Machine and Gillian Welch play more around Providence than here so I haz a jealous.

  82. 82.

    Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.)

    I don’t know if anybody saw this this morning, but we have our first Very Serious Person (the first I know of, at least) coming out for the Republicans drafting a general as their nominee in Cleveland! For realz! I wonder if these clowns know anything about politics. I mean, shit, these guys all live and work in Washington, D.C. You’t think they might have some damned clue that this shit wouldn’t go over too fucking well, and would, at least as far as I can tell, lead to riots, and maybe actual gunfights on the floor of the convention. These people are so fucking dumb, I don’t know how they hold their jobs.

  85. 85.

    Tissue Thin Pseudonym

    I’m trying to watch all of the Marvel Universe movies, but so far, I’m underwhelmed. I like Iron Man, and I loved The Avengers. I liked about half of the first Captain America, but the other half made no sense, including the key scene setting up Winter Soldier.* Iron Man 2 was unwatchable except for the scenes with both Robert Downey, Jr. and Gwymeth Paltrow.

    I watched Thor last night, and it wasn’t actively bad, just boring. The character development wasn’t so much weak as non-existent. The love story between Thor and Jane was based upon zero interesting action interaction, and seemingly was solely the result of each thinking the other is hot. Thor going from violent, unthinking jerk to worthy ruler of Asgard took 24 hours and was completely implausible. Even Tom Hiddleston’s Loki, who was awesome in The Avengers was flat. Heimdall and Erik Selvig was it for characters that were at all interesting.

    The problem with it is pretty obvious when you look at the credits at IMDB. There are five credited writers plus an uncredited “script doctor”. It has all of the hallmarks of a movie where the script was passed around to people with no unified vision and it was probably delayed past the point where all of the set pieces and big effects were already in the works, and so it worked ass-backwards: “These are the fight scenes, now write a story that incorporates all of them.”

    Just because it’s a comic book movie doesn’t mean that it has to insult my intelligence, but it appears that fans are perfectly okay with their intelligence being insulted so long as they get lots of action.

    **Bucky was carrying Cap’s shield when the shot hit him and knocked him out of the train, from which he then fell to his “death”. But the shot hit the shield, which is why it didn’t kill Bucky directly. You know, the shield made of vibranium that absorbs all impact. So there shouldn’t have been any knockback. There are a bunch of other places where it’s as stupid.

  86. 86.

    Kropadope

    @Jeffro: Not really to do with your post, but Megyn Kelly is on a cover of a magazine I’ve seen at stores lately and every time I see her, I come away thinking she’s make an awesome recast if, god forbid, something were to happen to Lena Heady in Game of Thrones.

  88. 88.

    p.a.

    @MomSense: I posit that the very existence of a Tilda Swinton thread indicates a slooowwwww news day, primary exhaustion, Trump laryngitis, and Cruz religious ecstacy coma. This is good news for John Kasich.

  90. 90.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    @MomSense: Don’t the fug girls just call her Swinton, as an honorific/term of admiration kind of thing?

    I just listened to Kasich and I’m offended, without being Jewish beyond an odd and persistent local reputation of unknown origin.

  93. 93.

    benw

    OT but the Warriors are going for win 73 and Kobe Bryant’s final game are both happening right now.

  96. 96.

    redshirt

    @Tissue Thin Pseudonym: Iron Man 2 is generally recognized as the worst of the MCU to date. There’s many parts I don’t like (Stark being an ass, mostly), but there’s lots of great parts – the introduction of Black Widow, for example. And War Machine.

    As for the shield issue, you got me. Cap also gets blown back while using the shield in The Winter Soldier. Maybe if the angle’s wrong you still get force through the shield?

  97. 97.

    redshirt

    @efgoldman: That’s pretty much all the movie is – a two hour chase. If you’re looking for something deeper based on the critical buzz, note that every single shot of the movie is center framed. Or that every vehicle was actually constructed and is real. Or even the smallest character had a back story.

    Also consider that Nux is the actual protagonist and he’s trying to kill himself the entire movie, and he finally succeeds. As a hero.

  98. 98.

    Emma

    @redshirt: I think at some point is all about intent, because, honestly, even the best meaning of us have put our foot in our mouths at some point. So I try not to attribute to racism what can be just “to hell with this, I’m up ending this trope.”

  99. 99.

    NotMax

    @Adam L. Silverman

    Have been holding this link back until saw you active in an open or pop culture thread. (Fingers crossed it’s new to you.)

    Long time comic readers will get more out of it but regardless it’s dang funny and impressively done.

  101. 101.

    Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.)

    @Omnes Omnibus: Yeah, there is that. And Petraeus also pled guilty to giving classified information to his mistress, whom he had chosen to write his biography. The judge gave him probation and fined him $100,000. But, hey, who gives a shit about that, right? Petraeus is a hero! Isn’t he? And, he himself is a Very Serious Person, so it makes it all O.K. that he committed a crime, right? Fuck, almighty. We need better people writing about our politics in this country. We need a wholesale firing of everybody in every “serious” news outlet in the U.S. I think we might keep a few of them, like Maddow and Chris Hayes and a few others. But most of these assholes have to go. No wonder the country keeps electing asswipes to run things when we have such a gutless, craven bunch of tools telling us what’s happening here.

  102. 102.

    gene108

    @Adam L Silverman:

    Ladakh is not a kingdom. It is part of India, which maybe an issue for China, as there are serious border disputes with India; i.e. China wants to claim large chunks of India for itself, such as the state of Arunachal Pradesh.

  104. 104.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    @debbie: The Machine has sort of a different range of songs – some of “hers” some of “his” some Old Crow Medicine Show covers. Dave seems to sing more lead in the Machine. My suspicion is that the Machine was created as a vehicle for some of the material they didn’t believe was good enough to release as Gillian Welch. So they’ll play a slightly different set. Does that even begin to answer the question?

    I saw a video of a show they did in London as GW and it was pretty terrific, so I’ve wanted to see them live since what seems like forever.This may be as close as I’ll get since they seem to play lots of festivals and I’m not 40 anymore.

  105. 105.

    Tissue Thin Pseudonym

    @redshirt:

    Maybe if the angle’s wrong you still get force through the shield?

    Maybe the writers were sloppy and didn’t bother thinking about what they were doing. Kind of like when they had both the Germans and the Americans casually violating Swiss neutrality without consequences, or having the infiltration team Cap was leading walk to Switzerland, which was hundreds of miles behind the front lines.

    As I said, so long as movie watchers don’t demand quality script writing, and come up with excuses to hand wave it, studios don’t have any incentive to put any effort into having good writing.

  109. 109.

    redshirt

    @Tissue Thin Pseudonym: I’ve successfully programmed parts of my brain to turn off for comic book movies and other fantasy, escapist fiction. It’s far more enjoyable.

    I mean, like an actual Iron Man suit could even work. Or a serum and “Vita Rays” could turn a 5’4 asthmatic into a 6’3 super solider. Or that there’s an actual God of Thunder.

    In for a penny, in for a pound.

  111. 111.

    p.a.

    @redshirt: My friend Kelly on why he wouldn’t see the original Christopher Reeve Superman movie: “I don’t care what you say. No man can fly.”
    *sigh*

  113. 113.

    Ken

    @p.a.:

    …without being Jewish beyond an odd and persistent local reputation of unknown origin.

    That sounds like a nice basis for a short story.

    Or a superhero origin story, to keep with the thread themes.

  115. 115.

    Adam L Silverman

    @gene108: Its not a kingdom now. Historically, traditionally, there were four mountain kingdoms: Tibet, Nepal, Bhutan, and Ladakh. I was using kingdom in that sense.

  118. 118.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Ken: So we calling her SuperJewess or Ninjewette? Maybe the Menacing Menorah? If its the last one, then her sidekicks would be called the Candeleers.

  123. 123.

    Ken

    @Adam L Silverman: Thanks for the reminder. I almost forgot that when minorities are superheroes, their identities must refer to their ethnicity, gender, and/or religion. See also Black Manta (modern version), Black Panther, Black Vulcan, …

    ETA: @p.a., unlike the name, it’s not mandatory that the superpowers match the ethnic sterotype.

  125. 125.

    Miss Bianca

    Nothing to do with comic books, Tilda Swindon, or any/all of the above, but I feel a need to kvell just a bit: first mead of the season bottled, and dayum…it’s good. Even the dregs of the carboy are good..

    OK, just to bring it back to comic books…anyone hereabouts know if there was ever a title called “Time Assassin”?

  128. 128.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Ken: Black Adam wasn’t black. The term came from the fact that he betrayed the Wizard Shazam and abused the power that he had been given. Shazam, when he banished him to the farthest star in the sky, changed his name from Teth Adam to Black Adam. In this case black was to denote a corrupted and evil soul. He was, as the character was written, Arab North African. Originally from Egypt and then, after several retcons, from Khandaq, which is sort of DC’s version of what is now the Arab northern Sudan.

  141. 141.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Miss Bianca: You’ve got characters named the Time Trapper and the Time Master. But I’ve never heard of the Time Assassin. Nor a book by that name. There is an Assassin’s Creed comic book based on the game.

  147. 147.

    redshirt

    @Mike J:

    He leaps, he doesn’t fly. Anything that shows him flying obviously can’t be canon

    Absolutely right. And everyone knows Superman’s main enemies are war profiteers.

  148. 148.

    Miss Bianca

    @Mike J: THAT’S IT, you bastid. Are you actually that funny, or is it the mead? Either way, LMAO.

    @Adam L Silverman: Excellent, my thanks, Adam-San. I love it when I can get others to do my work for me. ; )

  151. 151.

    Tissue Thin Pseudonym

    @redshirt:

    I mean, like an actual Iron Man suit could even work. Or a serum and “Vita Rays” could turn a 5’4 asthmatic into a 6’3 super solider. Or that there’s an actual God of Thunder.

    One of the important elements of writing good science fiction or fantasy is keeping your world as close to ours as is possible given the needs of your story, and making those elements you do change internally consistent. Gratuitously altering things just because you’re lazy and don’t want to go to the effort of providing a better explanation or action weakens the buy in from the consumer. Having Iron Man’s suit fly and shoot repulsor beams is integral to the story; having Tony Stark build a particle accelerator in his basement over a weekend is not, and relying on it is cheap and lazy. Having an organization like S.H.I.E.L.D. is integral to the MCU story, so we can ignore the fact that it’s hopelessly unrealistic; having a central element of arms fairs be Hollywood style musical numbers was dumb and made it hard to watch the movie.

    So much of what we get in blockbuster movies these days, especially action films, is derived from someone saying, “Wouldn’t it be cool if . . .” and not thinking about anything beyond the visual impression it makes. It’s why I pretty much don’t watch action movies anymore. There is so rarely anything original in them beyond some special effects.

  153. 153.

    Ken

    @p.a.:

    I apologize.

    Oh, not necessary. I wasn’t criticizing you or Adam Silverman (BTW, clearly a secret identity). I was just noting The Way Things Are in comics publishing.

    (Not that it has to be. One of my favorite Justice League Unlimited episodes is the one introducing the Ultimen, mostly because they gave them good names.)

  154. 154.

    NotMax

    @Miss Bianca

    Quick and dirty search engine fu yields these:

    #1 – #2

    It’s a good name though, unlike, say, actual Golden Age comic book heroes such as The Whizzer or Doctor Hormone.

  156. 156.

    Miss Bianca

    @Tissue Thin Pseudonym:

    “So much of what we get in blockbuster movies these days, especially action films, is derived from someone saying, “Wouldn’t it be cool if . . .” and not thinking about anything beyond the visual impression it makes.”

    Oddly – or not, perhaps – that’s a problem I had working as a dramaturg in most theater companies – they’d love to “update Shakespeare”, for example, and set plays in random times/settings because of “how cool” it was. I think you can definitely make a case for doing so, but you have to work out *how* things are going to work. For example, there’s one play where they consult the oracle – I think it might be “Winter’s Tale”? How’s that work if you’re setting it in the 19th Century? (well, you could get a telegram from the oracle, I suppose).

  157. 157.

    LAO

    @redshirt: yes. I’m contractually required to maintain that position.

    Good night all. It appears I missed an interesting discussion. I blame the NY Rangers.

  158. 158.

    Tissue Thin Pseudonym

    @redshirt:

    How does Superman fly, anyways?

    About the only way I can get superpowers to work in any logical fashion is to say that the powers are not, technically, the ability to fly or such. Rather, a superhero projects a localized field that alters the laws of physics in some fashion. Superman can fly because he has the ability to negate the force of gravity and Newton’s First Law of Motion from acting upon him in specific ways. From that negation, he can fly.

  159. 159.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    @debbie: Late to respond to you, but all the songwriting credits on GW records are both of them. I’m not sure he even gets enough credit for what he does with that 80 year old archtop.

  161. 161.

    redshirt

    @Tissue Thin Pseudonym: I agree with your overall point but disagree on a specific: If a fantasy story establishes rules that are outside the reality of our world (magic, super science, whatever), it’s cool as long as they are consistent within their own rules. As per your example, it’s fine to establish a material that completely absorbs all energy even though such a material is impossible in the real world. But then when you have a character getting bounced to his “death” using that material, you’ve broken the rules of your own fictional universe.

    I see that you’re applying your writer’s eye to the MCU. It’s constructive and self-defeating at the same time. Can you imagine how many writers found themselves in Hollywood, at first incensed that they are forced to give up whatever standards they had in order to meet a deadline/budget/profit goal?

  162. 162.

    Miss Bianca

    @NotMax: Oh, my goodness! Wow, well, if he’s an existing character somewhere, I will have to do some more research…Thanks!

  163. 163.

    NotMax

    @redshirt

    In reality, no, don’t keep a list of URLS in a file. Possess a fairly eidetic memory of things glimpsed on the internet, so finding them again is not particularly time consuming.

    Even so, memory ain’t what it was as the years flash by.

  172. 172.

    Miss Bianca

    @Omnes Omnibus: Ooh…that sounds awesome. I wish I could see it. Love the German Expressionists.

    ETA: Oh, and *all* Shakespeare productions get their history wrong. But then, to be scrupulously fair, so did Shakespeare.

    ETA2: well, once again, someone gets there before me.

  174. 174.

    Tissue Thin Pseudonym

    @redshirt: It’s one of the reasons I couldn’t do script writing. It’s also why, in some (though definitely not all) cases, I don’t argue that it’s the writer’s fault that the script sucks. It’s on the studios that prioritize things other than good scripts. In many cases, especially with something like the MCU, it’s that they’ve started the publicity for a movie and set a release date before they’ve even started working on a script. The writing is basically an afterthought, and it shows.

    For me, that just doesn’t work most of the time. For me, the fight scenes and the effects are, at most, secondary things that can enhance a movie, but that cannot be the basis for it. Plot and world building aren’t even that important to me; I might complain about them, but there are plenty of movies I love where they don’t really make sense. For me, it’s characters that must the center of all successful stories. Produce characters I become attached to and care about, positively or negatively, and I’ll put up with almost any other flaws. I just watched Interstellar, in which the science didn’t really make much sense and I had the plot figured out about 15 minutes into the movie, but the characters hooked me so deeply, especially the relationships between Cooper and both of his kids, that I loved it despite those flaws.

    That’s why I found Thor so boring. All of the principle characters were thoroughly unengaging. I’m supposed to buy a complete change in Thor’s personality without it being truly manifest in what we see. There were some cool effects. The plot wasn’t that bad, and Loki’s machinations were fairly interesting. But I didn’t care what happened to anyone in the movie, and that’s the death knell for my appreciation of a story.

  178. 178.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Miss Bianca: He’s not. I did a search using Time Assassin comic book and a second time assassins comic books and a third for time assassin. All you get is a piece of fan art for an character submission and some cosplayer with a made up character.

  180. 180.

    redshirt

    @Tissue Thin Pseudonym: Heh. It’s funny because Interstellar really bugged me because the science was so bad and I knew Kip Thorne worked on it. I mean, NASA has a secret rocket program behind their conference room wall? Habitable planets around black holes? Nonsense.

    Whereas I dug the entirety of Thor’s character journey in the first movie. He’s a prince, the anointed King-to-Be, and it’s all taken away from him as he’s sent into the exile of a Rom-Com. Only by learning that sacrifice is the key to ruling does he return to his former stature, after he performs the biggest sacrifice of all, death.

  181. 181.

    NotMax

    @Adam L. Silverman

    The cosplay apparently comes from a 90s video game called Chrono Trigger, wherein one character is sometimes referred to as the assassin of time.

    So far as comic books go, looks like an open field.

    Miss Bianca, these old eyes insist on misreading your nym as Miss Binaca. Which is a whole ‘nother thing.

  184. 184.

    redshirt

    @Tissue Thin Pseudonym: No, not really. Newton’s laws of gravity are essentially approximations. Very useful but not correct. Einstein’s theories have proven (for now) that gravity is not a force at all but rather a consequence of the geometry of Space-Time. How could Superman overcome geometry?

  187. 187.

    Miss Bianca

    @NotMax: smile. You know who “Miss Bianca” is, right? (there are two versions…I’ve never seen the movie version, the book version is the one who charmed me to my soul).

  191. 191.

    NotMax

    Broke down and watched the trailer at the top of the post.

    Stephen Strange most looks like a random homeless dude, reminiscent of Nick Nolte in Down and Out in Beverly Hills.

  194. 194.

    Tissue Thin Pseudonym

    @redshirt:

    Only by learning that sacrifice is the key to ruling does he return to his former stature, after he performs the biggest sacrifice of all, death.

    See, that’s a huge part of why it doesn’t work for me. Aside from the transformation happening too quickly to be believable, the willingness to sacrifice himself was clearly established as already being a part of Thor’s personality. He had to be talked out of doing it during their raid on Jotunheim. So being willing to do it in New Mexico doesn’t qualify as any sort of change in his character at all. It’s not even a particularly important element of being a ruler, and none of the character flaws that led him to defy Odin have changed it all.

  196. 196.

    redshirt

    @Tissue Thin Pseudonym: Except in Jotunheim he’s nigh invincible – and he puts his friends in danger because of this. On earth, he’s just a rugged dude, and saves his friends (and townspeople) before he commits an act of suicide.

    At the end he’s obviously been humbled. Being unable to pick up the hammer is the main example of this, but the entire second half of the film explores this. Humility/sacrifice/selfishness are key ingredients to a wise leader – something that by the end of the film differentiates him from Loki as well.

    It’s also implied the entire film is just a test designed by Odin.

  202. 202.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    @Miss Bianca: Welcome to my world about late to threads.

    Since you’re a musician, I know you’ll appreciate how much I admire what he does. Mr. Q, a pro with a MM just listened with his mouth open the first time I played a cd for him, something to the effect of

    that he can even make those harmonics possible, Jesus

    I think that was from Time (the revelator) which has a pretty distinctive, ah beginning and then when we watched the St Luke show video he added

    and then make it look easy

  203. 203.

    Tissue Thin Pseudonym

    @redshirt: He may have been nigh-invincible, but he was also prepared to die so that his friends could escape. The willingness to sacrifice himself was not a new impulse.

    FWIW, I’m watching Winter Soldier now, and an hour in, it’s really, really good.

  206. 206.

    redshirt

    @Tissue Thin Pseudonym: But he wasn’t prepared to die in Jotunheim. He knew he wouldn’t. Couldn’t. Thus his lust for combat.

    Winter Soldier is generally ranked as the best MCU movie to date (though I suspect Civil War will soon top it).

  214. 214.

    Anya

    @Adam L Silverman: that area is still black. People who live there are darker than Obama, to use an easy example. People seem to mistake original African Egyptians with European invaders. Original egyptians are closer to Somalis and Ethiopians than any other group.

  216. 216.

    redshirt

    @Miss Bianca: I once lived with two lab assistants who’s primary job seemed to be murdering mice and rats. And seemingly taking joy out of it. Their stories of rodent deaths were just casually cool and so even more disturbing.

    But like, for science, I’m sitting there listening interestedly. Morbidly.

  217. 217.

    Anne Laurie

    @Tissue Thin Pseudonym:

    About the only way I can get superpowers to work in any logical fashion is to say that the powers are not, technically, the ability to fly or such. Rather, a superhero projects a localized field that alters the laws of physics in some fashion. Superman can fly because he has the ability to negate the force of gravity and Newton’s First Law of Motion from acting upon him in specific ways. From that negation, he can fly.

    Back when I was a comix fan, my theory was that the Comic Book Universe was in a layer of probability where many weird things were physically possible… and this status had an unfortunate effect upon the evolution of human intelligence. Therefore, in CBU, a humanoid could fly; but even the smartest humanoids could be completely fooled by tricks (a pair of eyeglasses, a transparent lie) that would be transparent to even a young child in our layer.

  218. 218.

    mclaren

    @Kropadope:

    There are mystical cultures the world over to borrow from. Would it be racist if Dr. Strange learned from Druids?

    If Dr. Strange learned magic from the Celtic people, the magic would involve getting drunk, falling down, throwing up, and passing out.

  219. 219.

    redshirt

    @Anne Laurie:

    Back when I was a comix fan, my theory was that the Comic Book Universe was in a layer of probability where many weird things were physically possible… and this status had an unfortunate effect upon the evolution of human intelligence. Therefore, in CBU, a humanoid could fly; but even the smartest humanoids could be completely fooled by tricks (a pair of eyeglasses, a transparent lie) that would be transparent to even a young child in our layer.

    I like this theory. Perhaps the sheer shitshow of super powered people has scared most people into cowed silence. Like everyone knows Clark Kent is Superman but everyone’s too afraid to say anything.

  223. 223.

    Tissue Thin Pseudonym

    @redshirt: I liked it. My only significant problem with Winter Soldier is the afore-discussed inability to decide whether or not Cap’s shield absorbs all impact or not. I thought it was really clever to have him jump from a skyscraper and land shield first to kill the momentum of the fall; I have no idea if it was a clever idea for this movie, or a clever idea from some point in the comic book;s past that they used in the movie, but it was definitely clever thinking at some point.

    I thought the characterizations in this movie were fabulous. All of the principles felt fleshed out and natural. The changes they go through don’t feel forced or insubstantial, like they did in Thor. In part, that’s because they don’t try to change the characters radically in the space of a single movie. I particularly like the relationship between Steve Rogers and Natasha Romanova (though it would be nice if someone at Marvel had a clue as to how to make a Russian surname feminine); they don’t feel compelled to make it one of sexual tension. Hopefully, they can someday make a movie that doesn’t fail the Bechdel test, let alone one that passes it in spirit as well as the strict letter.

    Big thumbs up. And if you look at the writing credits, it’s two guys, not a committee.

  225. 225.

    Central Planning

    @Anne Laurie:

    but even the smartest humanoids could be completely fooled by tricks (a pair of eyeglasses, a transparent lie)

    I highly encourage everyone to watch Mystery Men:

    The Shoveler: Oh yeah, well, maybe if we had a billionaire benefactor like Lance Hunt, then we could afford some advertising.
    Mr. Furious: I think that’s because Lance Hunt is Captain Amazing.
    Blue Raja: Oh, here we go.
    Shoveler: Oh, don’t start that again! Lance Hunt wears glasses. Captain Amazing doesn’t wear glasses.
    Mr. Furious: [Long-suffering] He takes them off when he transforms.
    Shoveler: That doesn’t make any sense. He wouldn’t be able to see!

  227. 227.

    Matt McIrvin

    @Tissue Thin Pseudonym: Captain America: The Winter Soldier was the best Marvel Studios movie by a mile, and one of the best superhero movies ever made by anybody (though X-Men: Days of Future Past from the same summer gave it real competition).

    It did seem to me that Cap was powered up a bit relative to his portrayal in the preceding movie and in Avengers.

    It gave me high hopes for Civil War, but it sounds like it’s been subject to some of the same executive meddling that caused Joss Whedon to walk away after he finished Age of Ultron. The Russos really wanted to write Winter Soldier II, but all this ensemble and arc stuff and MCU!Spidey got smushed in. So it might be kind of a messed-up movie. I wonder if Marvel Studios can really do anything as good as Winter Soldier or even Guardians of the Galaxy again.

  228. 228.

    Matt McIrvin

    @TheMightyTrowel: Kamala Khan is one of the biggest things happening in comics these days. It kind of amazes me that Marvel Studios doesn’t seem to be even thinking about doing anything with her.

  230. 230.

    schrodinger's cat

    @redshirt: Newton’s laws of motion and Newton’s law of universal gravitation are two different things. They work very well for macroscopic objects and when v is much less than the speed of light c.

    For tiny and I mean atomic scale tiny you need quantum mechanics, You need to invoke special relativity when v approaches c.

    General theory of relativity comes into play when we have masses of stellar dimensions.

    So far everyday life, Newton’s laws work just fine.

Comments are closed.