Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

A thin legal pretext to veneer over their personal religious and political desires

“Everybody’s entitled to be an idiot.”

Usually wrong but never in doubt

They love authoritarianism, but only when they get to be the authoritarians.

It’s always darkest before the other shoe drops.

White supremacy is terrorism.

Good lord, these people are nuts.

Sitting here in limbo waiting for the dice to roll

This year has been the longest three days of putin’s life.

Battle won, war still ongoing.

When do the post office & the dmv weigh in on the wuhan virus?

I’ve spoken to my cat about this, but it doesn’t seem to do any good.

JFC, are there no editors left at that goddamn rag?

Our job is not to persuade republicans but to defeat them.

So it was an October Surprise A Day, like an Advent calendar but for crime.

It’s the corruption, stupid.

… riddled with inexplicable and elementary errors of law and fact

I’d hate to be the candidate who lost to this guy.

Fuck the extremist election deniers. What’s money for if not for keeping them out of office?

Fuck these fucking interesting times.

Pessimism assures that nothing of any importance will change.

Prediction: the GOP will rethink its strategy of boycotting future committees.

If senate republicans had any shame, they’d die of it.

New McCarthy, same old McCarthyism.

You are here: Home / Open Threads / Tony Awards Open Thread

Tony Awards Open Thread

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TonyAwards.com livestream here.

As a backup, looks like EW is doing a livestream, too.

The Guardian‘s live blog is here.

Per Variety:

… This year’s Tony Awards is expected to be dominated by Broadway phenom “Hamilton” and its record-breaking 16 nominations, including best musical and lead actor in a musical for creator Lin-Manuel Miranda.

Barbra Streisand is also expected to make her first Tony appearance in 46 years.

Reader Interactions

205Comments

  1. 1.

    gogol's wife

    The show is deeply moving so far. Corden’s opening number was great.

    And as I said on the thread below, LMM is a great man.

  3. 3.

    Darkrose

    Fuck you. CBS. Not only is it not being broadcast live on the West Coast, if you sign up for the CBS streaming service’s one week trial, you still can’t get the live stream if you have a West Coast IP address.

  4. 4.

    MomSense

    Ah Fiddler. I was 2 when I saw it for the first time. My mom was the actual fiddler in the put orchestra. I’ll always love Fiddler.

  5. 5.

    NobodySpecial

    Gee, wonder when the sound design award is being presented, I didn’t hear about it.

    Oh, wait….

  7. 7.

    lamh36

    I’ve never seen any of the classic musicals on Broadway but as a poor kid with PBS and the library, I watched alot on VHS
    #TonyAwards

  8. 8.

    lamh36

    For alot of folks, the Tony Awards may be one of the only time they can see these Broadway plays, outside of touring companies.

  10. 10.

    Mnemosyne

    I have the Twitter account open in another window to see the wins since I also am on the West Coast and am blocked from watching it until it starts here at 8 pm Pacific time. Fuck CBS.

    I am happy that my imaginary future ex-husband Daveed won, though I would have been equally happy if Christopher Jackson had won. I kind of want Leslie Odom to win over LMM, and, to his credit, I think LMM would be thrilled if that happened.

  12. 12.

    Mnemosyne

    @lamh36:

    Even LMM himself says that he only saw a couple of Broadway plays as a kid — even though he lived in NYC — because they were just so expensive. Ninety percent of what he learned was from listening to the cast albums over and over again.

    I’m really glad that all of the theaters with the touring companies have agreed to continue the #EduHam programs for high school students in the cities where the show will appear. Even if only a few of them are inspired to pursue the arts because of it, that’s a net benefit for all of us.

  18. 18.

    Mary

    @Mnemosyne: No kind of about it. I definitely want Odom to win. I love LMM, but his talents as a writer far outstrip his talents as a performer.

  19. 19.

    Culture of Truth

    BTW no you can’t get tix to Hamilton unless you win the daily lottery but a lot of these others are surprisingly affordable.

  20. 20.

    Mnemosyne

    @lamh36:

    I’m starting to get curious about the non-musical play that’s winning everything else, “The Humans.” I’ll have to look that up.

    Honestly, if another musical wins anything that “Hamilton” was up for, I think it’ll be a major upset. It’s the 800-pound gorilla tonight.

  22. 22.

    lamh36

    @observer 2m2 minutes ago
    Lin-Manuel seamlessly combined a sonnet for his wife with a tribute to #Orlando- the man really can do anything. #TonyAwards

    @MichaelaAngelaD 11s12 seconds ago
    “Love is Love is Love is Love is Love ” @Lin_Manuel #TonyAwards

  23. 23.

    Doug R

    @Darkrose: Sounds like they’re practicing their shenanigans for the new Star Trek show. I heard the first episode will be be broadcast free, then every other episode will only be on their paid streaming service.

  27. 27.

    Mnemosyne

    @Mary:

    Oh, I think LMM will be thrilled if Odom wins. He himself says that Burr has the best songs in the play. Hopefully the Tony voters agree that LMM will be going home with enough trophies that he doesn’t need that one, too.

    And I always like to see LMM dance because it reminds me that he is not, in fact, great at everything.
    ;-)

  28. 28.

    The Thin Black Duke

    If Hamilton and Barbara Streisand doesn’t bump the ratings for the Tony Awards this year, nothing will.

  29. 29.

    MomSense

    @Emma:

    He looks too much like my nephew. It feels creepy to notice.

    @Emma:

    It does. Classic shape with beautiful details.

  30. 30.

    debbie

    @lamh36:

    PBS used to film and show so many plays! Stuff I’d never see in Ohio and then couldn’t afford when I moved to NYC.

  33. 33.

    Mnemosyne

    For those of you getting to watch in real time, Twitter tells me that the cast of “The Color Purple” is performing next. That will be WELL worth watching.

  34. 34.

    Emma

    @Mnemosyne: I saw an interview where they asked him why he gave the best songs to Burr and he said something like “because they were needed to tell the story.” He’s a composer first and last.

  35. 35.

    lamh36

    If you follow Broadway Black, they’re posting tweets Tony Award history and POC

    ‏@BroadwayBlack 33s34 seconds ago
    Charlie Smalls won for Best Original Score for The Wiz in 1975 & he’s the only Black person to win this category since then. #TonysBlackOUT

  38. 38.

    Carl W

    @Mnemosyne: Off-topic: Thanks for the book recommendations. Read all 4. Liked all 4. (I thought the first one was the weakest, didn’t share your relative dislike for #3.)

    Not naming names because I don’t remember the names :)

  39. 39.

    Mnemosyne

    @Emma:

    You know that thing they say about how A people surround themselves with A+ people? That’s LMM. A big part of his genius is that he finds the right people to partner with, and he really wanted Leslie Odom Jr. for that role.

  41. 41.

    The Thin Black Duke

    South Bronx guy here. As a “troubled” high school student (I kept getting beat up for being a skinny kid with buck teeth and Clark Kent glasses), one of the best things that happened to me was when I was transferred to an alternate school with the other misfit toys. Because the arts curriculum wasn’t afraid to step outside the box, my class was taken to see off-Broadway plays like “To Be Young, Gifted and Black” and “Ain’t Supposed To Die A Natural Death”. It was an incredible opportunity for a poor young Negro student from “Fort Apache” back then. Sure, I enjoyed it immensely, but it wasn’t until years later that I realized how lucky I was.

  46. 46.

    lamh36

    Cynthia EriVo who plays Seelie in the Color Purple revival…is da truth ya’ll..

    The gods honest truth!

  47. 47.

    lamh36

    @BroadwayBlack 17s18 seconds ago
    James Earl Jones became the 1st Black Best Leading Actor
    for The Great White Hope. #TonysBlackOUT #TonyAwards

  48. 48.

    Mnemosyne

    @debbie:

    No idea. The one thing I heard is that it’s the London production, and they brought the London star, Cynthia Erivo, to NYC for the revival. Not sure if the book was re-worked or what.

  51. 51.

    Mnemosyne

    @lamh36:

    She’s yet another awesomely talented British Black actor. Not sure what they’re putting in the water in London, but dang we’re getting a lot of talented African immigrants’ children coming from there. (Including, of course, our two faves, Idris and Chiwetel.)

    Also, if you see “Finding Dory” when it comes out next week, Idris does the voice of one of the sea lions. It’s really funny to hear him doing the sea lion barks.

  52. 52.

    Mnemosyne

    Also, you guys, Angela Lansbury is 90 years old and STILL ACTING ON STAGE. She was just here a few months ago in “Blithe Spirit.”

  53. 53.

    Mnemosyne

    Guardian liveblog had the full text of LMM’s sonnet:

    My wife’s the reason anything gets done;
    She nudges me towards promise by degrees;
    She is a perfect symphony of one;
    Our son is her most beautiful reprise.
    We chase the melodies that seem to find us
    Until they’re finished songs and start to play
    When senseless acts of tragedy remind us
    That nothing here is promised, not one day.
    This show is proof that history remembers
    We lived through times when hate and fear seemed stronger;
    We rise and fall and light from dying embers, remembrances that hope and love last longer
    And love is love is love is love is love is love is love is love cannot be killed or swept aside.
    I sing Vanessa’s symphony, Eliza tells her story
    Now fill the world with music, love and pride.

  55. 55.

    Matt McIrvin

    @Mnemosyne: For a while Lansbury seemed like some kind of ageless creature, like Dick Clark. I think part of it was that she was playing older than her actual age when she was quite young, so it was as if she never changed.

  67. 67.

    Mnemosyne

    @debbie:

    If I may name-drop for a moment, I was lucky enough to hear Ava DuVernay (the director of Selma) speak last week, and she said something very similar to what John Doyle said in that article — when she does a film, she and her team develop a clear vision of what the heart of the story is and they cut away everything that isn’t relevant.

  68. 68.

    JPL

    I imagine that those nominated for a dramatic role, must be breathing a sigh of relief that’s there is no Hamilton on their side. I have to admit that I wouldn’t mind seeing The Humans or the Father. Of course, my first choice would be Hamilton.

  72. 72.

    Mnemosyne

    @debbie:

    Everyone says that Corden is actually driving. It’s just that he’s driving, like, five miles an hour.

    Since LMM has the same terrified expression on his face that he does when his dad is driving him around town, I actually believe Corden was driving.

  73. 73.

    The Thin Black Duke

    @Mnemosyne: Bottom line, if you don’t have a good story, you won’t have a good film, which is why I think the best writing is to be found in television these days. Working on an episode of “The Flash”, Kevin Smith said if he knew how respected television screenwriters were, he would have left movies years ago.

  74. 74.

    lamh36

    That speech by Frank Langella with his words to Orlando was great!

    Catch it if you missed it.

  75. 75.

    Betsy

    Okay, this is lame, but I’m trying to find an astute comment on another thread and I can’t and I’m wondering if anyone here saw it and knows where it is. The comment had to do with corporations inserting their new ready-made cultural norms into society, as traditional culture is lost because the new cultural norms are easier to control and market to

  76. 76.

    Mnemosyne

    @TaMara (HFG):

    He only puts pictures of his son on Twitter if his face is hidden, which is probably a good idea for a celebrity kid.

    Just because I still love it, here’s Lin-Manuel’s wedding surprise for Vanessa. You might recognize at least two of the groomsmen: Hamilton director Tommy Kail and Christopher “George Washington” Jackson. And, of course, LMM’s dad has become a Twitter celebrity in his own right.

  77. 77.

    JPL

    @Mnemosyne: If you look at the lines in the sidewalk during his skits, I’m not even sure it’s five miles a hour. There also appears to be escorts.

  81. 81.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @Mnemosyne:

    Not “National Velvet”?

    (Consulted teh Googles. Both were 1944 films; I guess “Gaslight” was released a bit before “NV.”)

  83. 83.

    Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism

    I want to hear LMM’s acceptance for Best Book. Waaah!

  102. 102.

    Schlemazel Khan

    @lamh36:
    I used to get to see one Broadway play a year while in High School because there would be one student performance of a touring company in town for a run.

    There have been several that have been trough town now I would love to see but the cheapest tickets I have found are $80 each (not including TicketMashers up charges) & that is the last row of the third balcony for a matinee performance. Decent seats start around $120 each. I just can’t bring myself to drop $300 for us to see a single performance of anything. I don’t know how people do it.

  103. 103.

    Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism

    The censor was a little bit off with the button, there.

    :D

  105. 105.

    gogol's wife

    But I was hoping they’d showcase Philippa Soo, because I think she’s not going to win. And it would have been nice to see more Odom too.

  109. 109.

    gogol's wife

    @Mnemosyne:

    I didn’t really like what I heard of Erivo tonight. I think Soo is a better singer. But I guess you have to consider the whole performance. Whatever.

  110. 110.

    Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism

    I got to see live theater in elementary school. We would buy a season pass to the Children’s Theatre, and the schools would take us to matinees four to six times a year.

    Most memorably, I saw productions of Ten Little Indians, 1984, and The Mikado.

  111. 111.

    Mnemosyne

    @gogol’s wife:

    Hercules Mulligan + censor button has got to be that number.

    I understand why they picked that one, because it probably showcases the majority of the cast (without needing turntables, anyway), but it would have been great to see “The Room Where It Happens.”

  113. 113.

    sigaba

    @Mnemosyne: CBS can’t simulcast the Tonys over the west coast because it would cut in on the ad revenues they split with the Broadway League.

  114. 114.

    Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism

    @Mnemosyne: Sans guns, starting partway through History Has Its Eyes on You.

    They announced they would be doing without the guns this afternoon.

  115. 115.

    Mnemosyne

    @sigaba:

    Is there a different way of doing ads for the Tonys than there is for the Emmys, Grammys, and Oscars? I can’t imagine that the Oscar ads are any cheaper now that it’s simulcast coast-to-coast instead of being in prime time.

  116. 116.

    normal liberal

    @Mnemosyne: They started with part of “History has its eyes on you,” so managed to include the “you have no control, who lives, who dies, who tells your story” passage.
    In most productions Yorktown would be the end of Act, but no, let’s continue to the next big ensemble piece.
    ETA and I see I was too slow.

  117. 117.

    sigaba

    @Mnemosyne: Emmys Grammys and Oscars are done on the west coast, and the simulcast doesn’t compete with prime time or dinner hour back East.

    Everything about the New York arts scene is exclusionary, right down to solar motion :)

  120. 120.

    Mnemosyne

    If you want tickets, act now:

    Jana Kasperkevic Jana Kasperkevic
    According to Playbill, there might some Hamilton tickets up for sale after tonight’s Tony awards:

    A new block of tickets for the Broadway smash Hamilton is scheduled to go on sale to the general public starting at 11:10 PM June 12, according to Ticketmaster. It was originally scheduled to go on sale at 8 PM, but was moved later so as not to conflict with the Tony Awards broadcast.

  121. 121.

    Libby's Person

    Wonderful to see that! I love the sound of “Yorktown”, but wow, the choreography makes it utterly amazing. Left me misty eyed.

  124. 124.

    lamh36

    @BroadwayBlack 3s3 seconds ago
    The current production of @BwayColorPurple is the first & only Black-led musical to be up for Best Revival of A Musical. #TonysBlackOUT

  128. 128.

    sigaba

    @Mnemosyne: Let’s face it, west coast interest in the Tonys this year is sortof a once-in-several-decades-level fluke. Nobody was begging for simulcast of the awards for “The Coast of Utopia” or the revival of “Company” or to see if “Light in the Piazza” was going to beat “Spamalot”.

    The fact that shows like “Spamalot” and “The Producers” routinely swept the Tonys in the last decade sorta undercuts their relevance and credibility IMHO.

  130. 130.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Mnemosyne: Do remember how often you talk about how you love the weather and the politics of California – how you happily escaped to it, etc. All that comes with some consequences.

  133. 133.

    lamh36

    @BroadwayBlack now3 seconds ago
    Best Performance by an Actor in a Leading Role in a Musical is @leslieodomjr!!! for @HamiltonMusical!!!!!!!! #TonyAwards #TonysBlackOUT

  136. 136.

    lamh36

    ‏@ScottFeinberg 5s5 seconds ago
    Leslie almost quit the business about 5 years ago — was down on his luck and applied for a hotel clerk job.

  139. 139.

    lamh36

    @EW 17s17 seconds ago
    Congratulations to @CynthiaEriVo on winning Leading Actress in a Musical! #TonyAwards

    And, OMG, my favorite song from this movie soundtrack!

    @BroadwayBlack 38s39 seconds ago
    Cynthia Erivo wrote “Fly Before You Fall,” featured on the Beyond The Lights
    Soundtrack! #TonysBlackOUT #TonyAwards

  140. 140.

    Mnemosyne

    @lamh36:

    There’s a great story in the Hamilton book about Odom giving up a TV series in Los Angeles and it having been a really hard decision because that’s how he was going to buy his mother a house. Ultimately, he made the right choice, because this show is going to open so many doors for him and the other actors in it.

  145. 145.

    lamh36

    @ScottFeinberg 50s50 seconds ago
    History: All four musical performance winners — Odom, Erivo, Diggs and Goldsberry — were people of color, notes my seatmate @ZeitchikLAT!/blockquote>

  146. 146.

    Mnemosyne

    The Tony Awards
    ‏@TheTonyAwards
    For the first time in #TonyAwards history, all four musical acting awards have gone to people of color.

    And that still would have been true if Philippa Soo had won.

    ETA: To be clear, that’s a comment on the fact that most of the favored nominees were people of color, not a slam on Cynthia EriVo.

  147. 147.

    MomSense

    Ha when Barbara came out I said she looked like a founding father. She thinks so too.

  154. 154.

    lamh36

    Good show and James Corden was a really good host!

    needed a bit of happy in the atermath and with the upcoming stupid MSM/political bull to come.

  155. 155.

    sigaba

    … AND ANDREW LLOYD WEBBER ON TAMBOURINE!

    (I’m glad he’s finally found a gig in theater he’s qualified for.)

  157. 157.

    Mnemosyne

    Oh, and if folks were worried that the Hamilton cast isn’t going to be able to find future work:

    And just recently [Onaodowan] was asked to play Kristoff in a lab version of the upcoming stage adaptation Disney’s “Frozen,” as sure a thing as possible on Broadway. It doesn’t ensure him the role in the musical, scheduled to hit Broadway in 2018, but it’s certainly a sign that Onaodowan has arrived after years as a struggling actor.

    Yep. The son of Nigerian immigrants may be playing a Norwegian hero in a Disney musical on Broadway. Because Broadway doesn’t give a fuck what you think.

  161. 161.

    Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism

    Eleven. Not quite record setting, but so very close.

  162. 162.

    sigaba

    @Mnemosyne: Broadway productions are blessed to not have upfronts with foreign sales agents, or anything resembling studio notes from Platinum Dunes’s army of CEs and co-producers (“I just want to make sure Michael Bay’s vision is protected…”).

  163. 163.

    Mnemosyne

    @sigaba:

    Have you seen the trailer for Queen of Katwe? It’s a Disney production, and I swear it’s a giant middle finger to the Academy to dare them not to nominate it.

    I appreciate it when studios at least attempt to use their powers for good.

  164. 164.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Mnemosyne:

    Oh, and if folks were worried that the Hamilton cast isn’t going to be able to find future work:

    Oddly, I was really most worried about how insanely talented people were going to leverage their insane talents given their current success. Kept me up at nights, it did.

  165. 165.

    gwangung

    @Omnes Omnibus: Well, when you’re actors of color, yes, it does keep folks up at night sometimes. Particularly when outside of theatre (no prize themselves), the decision makers are more hidebound their audiences….

    Immense talent is no guarantee of continued employment, let alone success…

  166. 166.

    Mnemosyne

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Yes, it’s not like actors of color have ever had a single success that they were unable to replicate because they were never able to get another role as good. Thanks for letting us know that racism in entertainment is dead.

  167. 167.

    sigaba

    @Mnemosyne: I hand’t seen that trailer. I’m neither a fan of Oscar-bait or trolling, though.

    Frankly I think the Oscars are tainted in their mission… I’m not sure they’re the sort of thing serious creative people should aspire to.

    (I mean, don’t turn one down or anything, and I’m still making my Academy application in the next five years, but…)

  168. 168.

    Mnemosyne

    @sigaba:

    Meh. If a major studio wants to use their powers to troll the Academy by making a film with an all-black cast and a director who is a woman of color, I have no problem with it. Better to produce a film to try and overcome the #OscarsSoWhite problem than pretend it doesn’t exist.

    ETA: As G always says, the Oscars are a trade show. Winning one is like winning the top award at the Detroit Auto Show, but with better dresses.

  169. 169.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @gwangung: @Mnemosyne: Points taken. This one seems so far beyond that I don’t expect the usual rules to apply. I may be wrong.

    @Mnemosyne:

    Thanks for letting us know that racism in entertainment is dead.

    I never said that.

  170. 170.

    Mnemosyne

    I read the text of LMM’s sonnet, but it still made me choke up watching it.

    Yes, I’m watching it live because I’m nervous that the DVR is going to cut out the end even though I extended the program by half an hour.

  171. 171.

    sigaba

    @Mnemosyne: I’m not as opposed to the idea of baiting them with an all-black cast pertaining mostly to those interests, as much as I am to the idea of the Formula Oscar Film, specifically the “Spelling Bee Movie.” It cheapens everything they might be trying to say about diversity. There’s making a great film, and then there’s pandering to the Producer’s and Actor’s Branch, and these two are not the same thing.

    There’s a reason that the Oscars in the 90s were a deluge of Kindertransport retreads, it would be a disservice to try to reverse #OscarsSoWhite by just making black versions of Fiddler and Schindler’s List. I’m working on something now for Lionsgate’s “Urban” production arm, “Code Black Films,” (seriously) and it’s basically Cape Fear with black people. Late last year I worked on a film that was basically The Hand that Rocks the Cradle with black people (I even worked on the Chicano version of Whiplash). I fear this is basically the strategy Disney and the Academy would use to defuse the tension, just make the same annoying “epic” films just with African-extracted people.

  172. 172.

    Mnemosyne

    @sigaba:

    I fear this is basically the strategy Disney and the Academy would use to defuse the tension, just make the same annoying “epic” films just with African-extracted people.

    That’s a deeper problem than just #OscarsSoWhite, though. Distribution and exhibition is a huge problem, and studios don’t see why they should do anything other than blockbusters and Oscar bait, because they’re not sure how they’re going to make their money back if it’s not a blockbuster.

    I don’t think we’ll see a major change in studio behavior until everything shakes out and they can figure out how to monetize streaming and downloads at similar levels to what theatrical exhibition and DVD sales used to be. The bottom has dropped out of DVDs and streaming/downloads isn’t replacing it.

    ETA: FWIW, those “urban” films are meant for black audiences and there will probably be little marketing effort to get them to cross over. At least Queen of Katwe is being aimed at the mainstream.

  174. 174.

    sigaba

    @Mnemosyne: Regarding the edit: The Detroit Auto Show is not telecast and if it were, could not charge Super Bowl-level ad rates for the female quadrants. Also cars aren’t art, and everything from The Holy Mountain to Joe Dirt 2 is still a form of expression, they still fundamentally exist to move us. Nobody’s going to say that the new Ford Focus insulted them, or scared them, or made them cry.

  175. 175.

    sigaba

    @Mnemosyne: To be fair you’re liable to see a 50% minority Oscar ceremony in the next 10 years. Just the minority in question will be Chinese :)

    “At least Queen of Katwe is being aimed at the mainstream.”

    What exactly makes you say that?

  176. 176.

    maurinsky

    @Mnemosyne: I’ve been on since 11:10 p.m. and it’s just spinning and spinning. I’m giving it 7 more minutes and then I’m going to bed. I didn’t have tix to Hamilton when I woke up this morning, so I guess it’s okay that I won’t have them when I got to bed tonight, either. Oh well.

  179. 179.

    rikyrah

    Hamilton is Peanut ‘s first musical. I get a smile everytime I hear her reciting the raps from it?
    She has the first half down pretty well. We go song to song. ?

  180. 180.

    sigaba

    @rikyrah: Poor Fun Home and Bright Star :)

    May I also say that the abridgment of all the technical award speeches is sorta sickening. #BTLLivesMatter

  181. 181.

    Mnemosyne

    @sigaba:

    What exactly makes you say that?

    Other than the fact that it’s being produced by Disney and widely marketed to white audiences?

    (Edited because the wording was confusing IMO)

  182. 182.

    sigaba

    @Mnemosyne: Yeah: expensive and white = “mainstream”. But the $5 million thriller that’s actually pretty good: doesn’t really count, it’s a “genre” film, it’s only marketed to one, ahem, demographic segment.

    I mean, wether it’s actually a good movie or not is sortof secondary, amirite? The marketing and budget and Oscar campaign are really the critical factors in wether the work is great or legitimate.

    Maybe the problem here is I still want the Oscars to actually try to recognize good work every now and then, and some people just want it to be a “trade show.”

  184. 184.

    Mnemosyne

    @sigaba:

    Yeah: expensive and white = “mainstream”.

    Sadly, yes. Am I supposed to deny reality?

    ETA: Is it better to only market black movies to black audiences, white movies to white audiences, Latino movies to Latino audiences? What better metric for “mainstream” do you have?

  185. 185.

    sigaba

    @Mnemosyne:

    Sadly, yes. Am I supposed to deny reality?

    I’ll be honest, at least as far as North American popular culture is concerned, I think this is false. I think people rejected the Oscars this year because they didn’t reflect “mainstream” culture.

    (Edit. Sure, maybe a majority of the market is white, though even this is not so true, but white audiences have proved themselves over the last hundred years to be hungry for diverse art. It’s when the diverse people start voting that whites get nervous, but politics is not culture.)

    I think, setting aside what a marketer has to do to sell a movie, if you’re an artist making one of these things, it has to be the “truth” to you, if that’s a white one or a black one or whatever, if it’s the truth, it won’t matter WHO watches it. You have to tend your garden, if you’re trying to chase some “mainstream” you’ll end up with mediocrity. Hamilton is mainstream, can you even begin to imagine how many atrocious historical rap numbers we’re going to have to endure in the next few years as hacks attempt to create “mainstream” entertainment in its wake?

  186. 186.

    Mnemosyne

    @sigaba:

    Really, you need to mark your comments when you decide to expand a one-line comment to multiple paragraphs.

    Maybe the problem here is I still want the Oscars to actually try to recognize good work every now and then, and some people just want it to be a “trade show.”

    The Oscars have always been a trade show. They were part of the 1920s attempt by the industry to avoid government regulation to prove that they were too making art and not just commercial product. They’re actually far less corrupt today than they were when Dr. Doolittle and Around the World in 80 Days got nominated just so the studios wouldn’t lose all their money.

    And the genre complaint is a related but different complaint that’s always existed as well. Hell, they created an entire feature animation category just so another Beauty and the Beast wouldn’t come along and dare to be nominated for Best Picture alongside the “real” films.

    I will paraphrase something really important that Ava DuVernay said in that same talk I saw — she said that while getting awards from her peers is nice, she’s always found it far more satisfying to show her films at small festivals where she can talk directly to audience members, because she’s making her films for them, not for the Academy. (With the caveat that she is now an Academy member.)

  187. 187.

    Mnemosyne

    @sigaba:

    I’ll be honest, at least as far as North American popular culture is concerned, I think this is false. I think people rejected the Oscars this year because they didn’t reflect “mainstream” culture.

    Are we talking about mainstream culture or mainstream marketing? I thought we were talking about marketing and how that signals to audiences whether a film is “small” or “mainstream.” Disney is signaling that Queen of Katwe is “mainstream” by where they’re marketing it and who they’re marketing it to.

    If we’re talking about the broader culture, then the word may be “crossover” rather than “mainstream” — a film or work of art that marketers assume would only appeal to a small segment but ends up busting through those expectations and appealing to a much broader audience. I would say that Hamilton is a crossover work of art because it appeals to multiple different groups for multiple different reasons. Any work of art that appeals to Dick Cheney, Barack Obama, and Jay-Z is busting through all kinds of marketing preconceptions.

  188. 188.

    sigaba

    @Mnemosyne:

    she said that while getting awards from her peers is nice, she’s always found it far more satisfying to show her films at small festivals where she can talk directly to audience members, because she’s making her films for them

    Ugh, she’s one of those. Festivals come in three categories: the small ones that are vanity projects of the organizers, the Cannes-level ones that are elitist celebrity grindhouses, and the Toronto-type ones that really are, literally and in exact purpose, trade shows. Those that can, do; those who can’t, send Vimeo links to festival programmers.

  191. 191.

    Mnemosyne

    And just a comment to myself, I really need to see the Deaf West production of “Spring Awakening” the next time it comes around. It looks really cool.

  193. 193.

    Mnemosyne

    @sigaba:

    Well, I was pointing out that the marketing for Queen of Katwe was designed to place it firmly in the mainstream and make it impossible for Oscar voters to ignore. The question of whether there should be such a thing as “Oscar bait” movies is a different one, IMO.

  194. 194.

    sigaba

    @Mnemosyne:

    Well, she directed Selma, so she seems to know what she wants.

    I know, this makes her endorsement of festival Q&As all the more bizarre.

  195. 195.

    Mnemosyne

    @sigaba:

    She was talking someone down from thinking that the only possible way to get validation as an artist is by winning an Oscar. Her point was that awards are a nice bonus, but if you spend your time chasing awards, you’re not going to be satisfied artistically. Chase the art, not the awards.

  196. 196.

    sigaba

    @Mnemosyne: Oh. But isn’t the “Oscar bait” question the only important one?

    Of what relevance is the marketing? Business is business, Disney just does whatever it does to turn a DCDM into munny. Marketing has no aesthetic or moral meaning.

  197. 197.

    Mnemosyne

    @sigaba:

    But isn’t the “Oscar bait” question the only important one?

    Of what relevance is the marketing?

    Really? You never realized that certain movies are deliberately marketed as Serious and Award-Worthy and others are not?

    Marketing has no aesthetic or moral meaning.

    I disagree. I think there are more and less moral ways to market a film.

    Hang on, the Hamilton number is starting.

  198. 198.

    sigaba

    @Mnemosyne:

    Really? You never realized that certain movies are deliberately marketed as Serious and Award-Worthy and others are not?

    No not really. I only wonder why some are deliberately made “Serious” and “Award-Worthy” (despite often being the opposite of both).

    I think there are more and less moral ways to market a film.

    Madness.

  199. 199.

    Mnemosyne

    @sigaba:

    You may not like it, but marketing can make or break a film. Marketing made Batman vs Superman a “hit” even though it was hated by critics and fans once they actually saw it, and marketing sunk The Princess and the Frog even though it had the first African-American Disney princess and was a pretty decent musical, to boot. If you don’t market your film, nobody’s going to be able to find it and see it.

    I admit, this is partly influenced by the fact that I spent the morning sitting with a group of romance novelists talking about how to best market their book to digital audiences. Because it’s all well and good to write a book, but if nobody reads it, why go to the expense of releasing it? If you want to just make art for yourself, then you have no need to think about marketing, but if you want other people to see it, you have to market it somehow. Quality ain’t enough.

  200. 200.

    sigaba

    @Mnemosyne:

    You may not like it, but marketing can make or break a film…

    Isn’t this just a restatement of the premise the twit at the festival posed to DuVernay, except instead of “The Oscar” providing validation, you’re saying making large amounts of money should provide the validation?

    Even if Batman v. made a lot of money I’m pretty sure it’s a net negative on the cultural impact scale, it’s pretty much in the open that WB’s had to abort their entire D.C. universe rollout and retool. If you asked me to prove that white Europeans still hold the high ground in American culture, the grosses of BvS would not be my first argument. Also I’m not sure they actually have profited.

    Also are you saying that Disney intentionally took a dive on Princess and the Frog‘s marketing? I dunno, I have heard of such things but only on small films the studio “didn’t get” — see the case of Jem and the Holograms.

  201. 201.

    Mnemosyne

    @sigaba:

    My point is that bad marketing can ensure that no one goes to see a good film, and good marketing can entice people to see a bad film. Who said or implied that Disney “intentionally took a dive”? They misunderstood the market and made some really dumb mistakes, which is why 90 percent of them got fired.

    And, yes, I was pointing out that the marketing of Queen of Katwe is very specifically taking a film that could be considered a “niche” story with an all-black cast and presenting it to all audiences as something they’ll want to see.

  202. 202.

    Mnemosyne

    Also, Philippa Soo really does seem to be as nice as she’s said to be — when Cynthia EriVo won, she jumped to her feet to applaud.

  203. 203.

    sigaba

    @Mnemosyne:

    My point is that bad marketing can ensure that no one goes to see a good film, and good marketing can entice people to see a bad film.

    I don’t know, I know my clients obviously hope that they’re movie’s going to kill and make a billion dollars, but sometimes you just have an unlucky break and everybody kinda accepts that and that it isn’t actually a judgment on the work itself, and good work has a way of getting noticed and having an impact. Bad marketing can keep a million people away, but it can’t keep one person away, if you take my meaning.

    I have seen bad marketing. I am not sure I have ever seen marketing that was… an injustice. These things are, in this sense, commercial products and they succeed or fail on those terms. You can be an amazing bread maker but you’re gonna have days when people just don’t want bread.

  204. 204.

    sigaba

    @Mnemosyne: Also, like, I’m not sure there’s such a thing as a “bad film.” It’s an important point to make that just because Transformers 2 made $600 mil domestic, that doesn’t actually mean that it was influential or important, or even that people really liked it. Tickets let you in the door, we make money getting people in the door, and that’s enough for a lot of people, God only knows why they actually want in — maybe they wanna watch a good movie, maybe they’re just on a date, maybe this is just part of their social life, who knows.

    We can’t use the business side of the business as a proxy for cultural authority. I can tell you with a straight face that 70s grindhouse movies have probably had more influence on our culture today than just about any profitable “prestige” picture of that era. The marketing didn’t matter a fig.

  205. 205.

    Mustang Bobby

    Would it have killed them to broadcast the acceptance speeches by the special Tony Award winners Sheldon Harnick and Marshall W. Mason? Apparently so.

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