• Menu
  • Skip to primary navigation
  • Skip to main content
  • Skip to primary sidebar

Before Header

  • About Us
  • Lexicon
  • Contact Us
  • Our Store
  • ↑
  • ↓
  • ←
  • →

Balloon Juice

Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Lick the third rail, it tastes like chocolate!

They love authoritarianism, but only when they get to be the authoritarians.

Seems like a complicated subject, have you tried yelling at it?

Not loving this new fraud based economy.

Proof that we need a blogger ethics panel.

Republicans do not trust women.

“Just close your eyes and kiss the girl and go where the tilt-a-whirl takes you.” ~OzarkHillbilly

Donald Trump found guilty as fuck – May 30, 2024!

Many life forms that would benefit from greater intelligence, sadly, do not have it.

If you thought you’d already seen people saying the stupidest things possible on the internet, prepare yourselves.

Reality always lies in wait for … Democrats.

Tide comes in. Tide goes out. You can’t explain that.

This fight is for everything.

Russian mouthpiece, go fuck yourself.

the 10% who apparently lack object permanence

This must be what justice looks like, not vengeful, just peaceful exuberance.

Good lord, these people are nuts.

Bark louder, little dog.

The words do not have to be perfect.

Jesus watching the most hateful people claiming to be his followers

The Giant Orange Man Baby is having a bad day.

Dumb motherfuckers cannot understand a consequence that most 4 year olds have fully sorted out.

New McCarthy, same old McCarthyism.

The fundamental promise of conservatism all over the world is a return to an idealized past that never existed.

Mobile Menu

  • Seattle Meet-up Post
  • 2025 Activism
  • Targeted Political Fundraising
  • Donate with Venmo, Zelle & PayPal
  • Site Feedback
  • War in Ukraine
  • Submit Photos to On the Road
  • Politics
  • On The Road
  • Open Threads
  • Topics
  • COVID-19
  • Authors
  • About Us
  • Contact Us
  • Lexicon
  • Our Store
  • Politics
  • Open Threads
  • 2025 Activism
  • Garden Chats
  • On The Road
  • Targeted Fundraising!
You are here: Home / Organizing & Resistance / Don't Mourn, Organize / Monday Morning Open Thread: Truth, Justice…

Monday Morning Open Thread: Truth, Justice…

by Anne Laurie|  November 21, 20165:48 am| 260 Comments

This post is in: Don't Mourn, Organize, Election 2016, Open Threads

FacebookTweetEmail

Over time, people adopt the reigning narratives of the moment, resist those that require effort & shame those that keep fighting.

— Heather Havrilesky (@hhavrilesky) November 20, 2016

Brace yourself for a lifetime of uncool. It's the only way to stand up for what's right.

— Heather Havrilesky (@hhavrilesky) November 20, 2016

What’s on the agenda (Thanksgiving-releated or not) as we gear up for the new week?

***********
Not sure where the following falls on the ‘non-cool but necessary’ to ‘pure political kabuki’ spectrum, but it seems worth mentioning. Op-ed, from USA Today — “Still time for an election audit“:

A Washington Post–ABC News poll found that 18% of voters — 33% of Clinton supporters and 1% of Trump supporters — think Trump was not the legitimate winner of the election. Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S.C., has called on Congress to investigate the Russian cyberattack on the Democratic National Committee and the election…

We know that the national results could be tipped by manipulating the vote count in a relatively small number of jurisdictions — a few dozen spread across a few key states. We know that the vast majority of local elections officials have limited resources to detect or defend against cyberattacks. And while pre-election polls have large uncertainties, they were consistently off. And various aspects of the preliminary results, such as a high rate of undervotes for president, have aroused suspicion…

A full manual recount of the paper records would be definitive, but that’s unnecessarily difficult, expensive and time-consuming if the results are actually right.

There’s an easier way: an audit that manually examines a random sample of the ballots in a way that has a large chance of detecting and correcting incorrect results. This is called a “risk-limiting” audit. If the reported winner of a contest really won, a risk-limiting audit generally needs to examine only a small fraction of the ballots. But if the reported winner actually lost, a risk-limiting audit has a large chance of indicating that a full hand count is needed to set the record straight.

Risk-limiting audits are a crucial check on election integrity and accuracy even when elections are not controversial and margins are wide. They have been endorsed by the Presidential Commission on Election Administration and many organizations concerned with election integrity…

Ron Rivest is Institute Professor at MIT and was a member of the U.S. Election Assistance Commission Technical Guidelines Development Committee. Philip Stark, associate dean of mathematical and physical sciences at the University of California, Berkeley,was appointed to the board of advisers of the U.S. Election Assistance Commission.

Demand An Audit Of The 2016 Presidential Election – Sign the Petition! https://t.co/blV25MFep8 via @Change

— Heather Havrilesky (@hhavrilesky) November 20, 2016

FacebookTweetEmail
Previous Post: « Late Night Musical Open Thread
Next Post: You be the referee »

Reader Interactions

260Comments

  1. 1.

    Cermet

    November 21, 2016 at 5:55 am

    Just try and avoid depression from the small handed dick head choosing such terrible people and the media eating it up like this is the ‘new’ normal -ugh …

    Oh, and “Good Morning, everyone.”

  2. 2.

    Yoda Dog

    November 21, 2016 at 5:58 am

    Being uncool has never been a problem for me.

    Morning, all.

  3. 3.

    rikyrah

    November 21, 2016 at 5:59 am

    Morning, Everyone ???

  4. 4.

    OzarkHillbilly

    November 21, 2016 at 5:59 am

    Woke up a little after midnight because the Woofmeister felt the need to lick all the little nicks and cuts on my arm. No sleeping after that. I have to last 2 more hours, then we’ll see how the day will go.

  5. 5.

    WereBear

    November 21, 2016 at 5:59 am

    @Cermet: Just try and avoid depression

    And that has its own exhaustion component for me.

  6. 6.

    tybee

    November 21, 2016 at 6:01 am

    i was uncool before being uncool was popular.

  7. 7.

    rikyrah

    November 21, 2016 at 6:01 am

    @Cermet:
    Because, we are just supposed to make nice with the Anti-Semite in the White House, and the proven racist as Attorney General.?????

  8. 8.

    JPL

    November 21, 2016 at 6:15 am

    @WereBear: A friend yesterday mentioned that she is falling asleep at seven on the sofa. I suggested that she might be fighting off depression. Last night’s sleep wasn’t filled with discussions of balance sheets and Trump, so that’s an improvement. I woke at five because I had a dream, that someone called and said did you hear?

  9. 9.

    raven

    November 21, 2016 at 6:17 am

    We’ll wait for the call for surgery. I had two weeks off so now I either do “projects” around the house or login and do some work and use the days at xmas.

    OzarkHillbilly
    When the floor guy put in the pine floor in the addition it was his opinion that we should do a light buffer sand on our hall floor and oil it. It has some really big gaps and I’ve read about using hemp rope pushed into the gaps. We do have some flooring in a closet that was built under the new stairway we out in and the planks are in a bit better shape there. Whatcha think?

  10. 10.

    JPL

    November 21, 2016 at 6:23 am

    Yesterday the President had a news conference in Peru. The entire q and a session is interesting, but he did hint that he would not follow tradition, to not criticize the President-elect. You can start listening about six minutes in.

    https://www.c-span.org/video/?418869-1/president-obama-news-conference-lima-peru&live&vod

    In dealing with Republicans he said, “I certainly don’t want them to do what Mitch McConnell did when I was elected,” “Meet the day of and say our sole objective is to not cooperate with him on anything even if the country is about to go into a depression so that we can gain seats in the mid-terms and defeat him.”

  11. 11.

    Schlemazel

    November 21, 2016 at 6:24 am

    @Yoda Dog: @tybee:
    I was born uncool you merely adopted it

  12. 12.

    Schlemazel

    November 21, 2016 at 6:29 am

    @WereBear:
    I was having a pretty bad episode before the election, it has not gotten better since. It is tiring.

  13. 13.

    Luthe

    November 21, 2016 at 6:34 am

    Better than a change.org petition: a phone call. The DoJ comment line number is 202-353-1555. Call and tell them you want an audit.

  14. 14.

    Baud

    November 21, 2016 at 6:37 am

    Heather is correct.

  15. 15.

    OzarkHillbilly

    November 21, 2016 at 6:39 am

    @raven: I like my floors tight as I prefer to sweep rather than vacuum. Hemp won’t fix that. Some friends of mine have the same situation in their kitchen. It doesn’t bother them but it sure does me every time I go over there. As to tearing out the old floor under the new stairs, flooring just does not like to come out. In my experience, most of it is unusable after that.

  16. 16.

    WereBear

    November 21, 2016 at 6:42 am

    @Schlemazel: @JPL: It would be astonishing if we weren’t all dealing with impending depression, because “the future” has been run through a wood chipper.

    Whether we have particular vulnerabilities, like Mr WereBear’s disability and Medicare, or just general ones, like rampant financial looting that ruins the economy, we don’t know what to expect. I had plans that are now shattered like a china plate thrown off the Empire State Building. My own physical health was just starting to come around, but my sleep has been screwed up since the election and I don’t have any reserves left.

    And I’m not in physical danger. Lots of us are. Any attempts to tell myself that I don’t have it so bad -yet- leads me right into worrying about people who have it worse.

  17. 17.

    Raven

    November 21, 2016 at 6:46 am

    @OzarkHillbilly: ah thanks, we’re determined to preserve the floor. When you say “hemp won’t fix that” I’m unclear what you mean?

  18. 18.

    Immanentize

    November 21, 2016 at 6:46 am

    Hello All. Toast (our cat) is again lying on my chest. It snowed here just a bit. Still not exactly functioning at 100%. Also too, as a superior polyp creator, I too must get a little surgery early next year. But the good news is that I will be able t lol tell people that in 2017 I Literally Will not be half the asshole I was in 2016!

    Also too, short term effort for long-term benefit: My 86 year old mother in Upstate New York was just accepted into a transitional living community. So she will be moving out of the four bedroom five floor split level I grew up in (where she has been Livinng alone for years). Busy is good. It will keep my mind off the sound of Jackboots.

  19. 19.

    p.a.

    November 21, 2016 at 6:51 am

    I’ll do it, but it has been correctly pointed out to me here that the tabulation machines aren not online. Does anyone expect ‘Email’ Comey or Repub Congress to say in effect: yes Russian intel influenced the election because our supporters are buffoons and the general population nitwits?

  20. 20.

    Central Planning

    November 21, 2016 at 6:52 am

    Snow day!

    Not that it really affects me, but the kids are happy. At least they will be able to shovel some of the driveway. Yeah, I’m dreaming…

  21. 21.

    joel hanes

    November 21, 2016 at 6:53 am

    It is impossible to audit votes that were never cast due to inadequate polling places (reduced by 800 after SCOTUS gutted VRA) and due to repressive voter ID requirements.

  22. 22.

    WereBear

    November 21, 2016 at 6:55 am

    It’s not depression if you have a good reason? What is it then?

    At least I am far from apathetic; if Medicare goes it will affect a lot of Trump voters, and just knowing that some of them are dealing with gnawing uncertainty (from the comments on the AARP article) doesn’t make me happy. But it does make me feel totally justified in the contempt I have for them.

    They were fine doing this to Others. Now their meanness is going to boomerang back on them? They really were so stupid that they assumed all this government snipping of the safety net would only happen to people they don’t like? Only at the coasts or what?

  23. 23.

    OzarkHillbilly

    November 21, 2016 at 6:56 am

    @Raven: Stuff likes to fall into the cracks. You can’t sweep it out. If you have hemp in the cracks stuff will still clog up there and you still won’t be able to sweep it out. I hate vacuuming because the machines hit my ears at a very painful pitch, ergo my wife does all the vacuuming in our house. This may be a problem unique to me.

  24. 24.

    joel hanes

    November 21, 2016 at 6:57 am

    @Central Planning:

    At least they will be able to shovel some of the driveway.

    Do it with them? Snowball fight? Snowman?
    Hot chocolate?
    With peppermint schnapps if they’re of age?

    Mine are big and live out of state and I see them twice a year.
    Do not miss opportunities to have memorable fun while yours are around.

  25. 25.

    BillinGlendaleCA

    November 21, 2016 at 6:57 am

    I think we’re getting the last bit of rain here, 1 1/3 inches is pretty good for one storm.

    I finally replaced the ice maker module in the fridge, it’s got water in it now so it may actually be working?. Nikki, the cocker spaniel, will be happy when it’s working(she loves ice).

  26. 26.

    joel hanes

    November 21, 2016 at 6:59 am

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    This may be a problem unique to me.

    Many dogs and cats and some small children certainly agree with you.

  27. 27.

    OzarkHillbilly

    November 21, 2016 at 7:00 am

    @Central Planning: If they don’t want to shovel the driveway for you, you don’t have to cook for them.

  28. 28.

    Lounger

    November 21, 2016 at 7:03 am

    “Darkness is good. Dick Cheney, Darth Vader, Satan, that’s power.” Steve Bannon to the Hollywood Reporter, 11/18/2016.

    I’m thinking that if someone in the Clinton or Obama camp had said that we’d have been hearing of nothing else all weekend? CNN and TPM covered the interview but somehow managed to bury the lede. Geez Democrats, get on the ball with the oppo research here.

  29. 29.

    Matt McIrvin

    November 21, 2016 at 7:05 am

    Be suspicious of a resurgent brand of cool that treats all earnest concerns for justice as hopeless and annoying.

    South Park syndrome.

  30. 30.

    bemused

    November 21, 2016 at 7:06 am

    I’ve had sleep issues for a long time but the stress of the last two years of wtf politics has made the problem so much more challenging. And then came the election. Nuff said. We decided to spend Christmas with two of our adult kids, daughter-in-law and 3 year old grandkid who live on the opposite end of the country from us. As soon as we booked the plane tickets, we instantly felt light as air.

    I think we, my spouse and I, need to make a point of spending more time with like-minded family and friends that we know are not Republican. We need to be with people we can feel relaxed in their company, not on guard and not spending the whole time discussing politics either but just having fun together.

  31. 31.

    Central Planning

    November 21, 2016 at 7:06 am

    @joel hanes: @OzarkHillbilly: To be clear, they will shovel the driveway because I have great kids. It will probably take them all day… an hour of playing in the snow, 5 minutes of shoveling, more playing in the snow, and so on…

  32. 32.

    OzarkHillbilly

    November 21, 2016 at 7:06 am

    @joel hanes: Yeah, the wife always wait until Woof and I go outside to vacuum and the cat runs as far away as she can. It didn’t used to bother me, but decades of screaming circular saws didn’t just dull my hearing.

  33. 33.

    BillinGlendaleCA

    November 21, 2016 at 7:12 am

    One of my roses in the rain.

  34. 34.

    debbie

    November 21, 2016 at 7:16 am

    @JPL:

    That was me last week too, but I’ve been dealing with hip pain. Go to work, come home, lie down, wake up, go to bed, wake up, rinse and repeat.

  35. 35.

    debbie

    November 21, 2016 at 7:17 am

    @BillinGlendaleCA:

    Nice! Is there such a thing as an ugly rose?

  36. 36.

    rikyrah

    November 21, 2016 at 7:18 am

    I have bought two pairs of new boots. On sale. I have a wide foot, so boots are always tricky. I guess I will stop avoiding the possibility that they don’t fit, and will try them on tonight when I get home. Sigh. Not looking forward to the winter.

  37. 37.

    Baud

    November 21, 2016 at 7:18 am

    @BillinGlendaleCA: Mapplethorpe would be proud.

  38. 38.

    rikyrah

    November 21, 2016 at 7:20 am

    Speaking of justice, the police have used water cannons on the pipeline protestors in North Dakota. ???

  39. 39.

    OzarkHillbilly

    November 21, 2016 at 7:21 am

    @Central Planning: Heh. Yeah, if you need a job done now, best get busy.

    Was camping with a large group of friends and told my sons to go get firewood as per usual while I set up camp. When camp was all set up, there was no firewood and no boys. Went out and got the firewood and preceded to make dinner. Eventually they came running into camp and said, “Hey Pop, what’s for dinner?” I said something along the lines of “Well, I’m having slaw, and beans and hamburgers. I don’t know what you’re having because you haven’t contributed anything to this meal.”

    Their eyes got as big as their empty dinner plates. Of course one of my friends “snuck” them some food as I knew she would, but them boys never forgot the lesson and every time there after when I said “Git wood.” they got wood. Became known as the “Gitwood Boys.” They still laugh about it.

  40. 40.

    OzarkHillbilly

    November 21, 2016 at 7:25 am

    @rikyrah: Gee I wonder what they would do if the protesters were a bunch of white men with guns. No, I don’t.

  41. 41.

    Lurking Canadian

    November 21, 2016 at 7:26 am

    Lindsay Graham is one of a small handful of humans who can actually do something to prevent the coming horror. If he wants to show he’s concerned about tye integrity of the election, he can announce that he’s going into opposition and plans to vote against the worst of Trump’s appointments and Ryan’s murderous budgets.

    Anything less is meaningless virtue signaling.

  42. 42.

    Iowa Old Lady

    November 21, 2016 at 7:30 am

    I got editorial comments on a manuscript yesterday, so today I have to start ripping apart my story and putting it back together again. I’m thinking I need to kill a character, which I always enjoy doing.

  43. 43.

    Baud

    November 21, 2016 at 7:31 am

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    Gee I wonder what they would do if the protesters patriots were a bunch of white men with guns.

    Translated into Newspeak.

  44. 44.

    JPL

    November 21, 2016 at 7:31 am

    @Lurking Canadian: hahahahahaha He will vote proudly to dismantle Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security. The wealthy demand tax cuts.

  45. 45.

    OzarkHillbilly

    November 21, 2016 at 7:32 am

    @BillinGlendaleCA: Nice.

  46. 46.

    Chris

    November 21, 2016 at 7:32 am

    @Matt McIrvin:

    Why I loathe South Park. Well, that and the self awareness fail of a bunch of self proclaimed libertarians punching hippies for things tthey’re equally guilty of.

  47. 47.

    JPL

    November 21, 2016 at 7:33 am

    @BillinGlendaleCA: Your photographs are amazing and I’m so pleased that you share them with us.

  48. 48.

    BillinGlendaleCA

    November 21, 2016 at 7:34 am

    @debbie:
    @Baud:
    @OzarkHillbilly:
    @JPL: You should see the ones in 3D!

    ETA: I think my ice maker is now working. Nikki will be a very happy pooch.

  49. 49.

    OzarkHillbilly

    November 21, 2016 at 7:35 am

    @Iowa Old Lady: Can it be Trump?

  50. 50.

    Baud

    November 21, 2016 at 7:35 am

    @Chris: We’ll find out just how (un)principled libertarians are over the next four years.

  51. 51.

    JMG

    November 21, 2016 at 7:36 am

    Gonna try and have as much of a politics-free week as possible and focus on my wife Alice. It will be the first Thanksgiving ever without at least one of our two children at home (both are out of country, one for work, one for pleasure travel) and her late sister, who died suddenly in April. Alice is the eldest of 11, but this was the only sibling who lived in Boston area. So my first priority is to try to make it a happy as possible holiday for her.

  52. 52.

    BillinGlendaleCA

    November 21, 2016 at 7:36 am

    @Iowa Old Lady: I hope this story isn’t based on Balloon Juice.

  53. 53.

    BillinGlendaleCA

    November 21, 2016 at 7:38 am

    @Baud:

    We’ll find out just how (un)principled libertarians are over the next four years.

    Very. Or as the kid says, they’re idiots.

  54. 54.

    Baud

    November 21, 2016 at 7:38 am

    @BillinGlendaleCA: The title is The Car in the Field. What do you think?

  55. 55.

    OzarkHillbilly

    November 21, 2016 at 7:38 am

    @Baud: Ahh, thank you, I keep forgetting that things are different now.

  56. 56.

    Baud

    November 21, 2016 at 7:40 am

    @BillinGlendaleCA: No way Sessions doesn’t come down hard on marijuana. That’ll be the tell.

  57. 57.

    Lurking Canadian

    November 21, 2016 at 7:40 am

    @JPL: Exactly. His “concerns” about Russian tampering aren’t likely to prevent him from acting like the Republicans just won a massive landslide and have a historic mandate for their whole agenda.

    Shorter me: Graham is full of shit.

  58. 58.

    BillinGlendaleCA

    November 21, 2016 at 7:41 am

    @Baud: Yup, it seems our vote to legalize was just a symbolic thing.

  59. 59.

    weaselone

    November 21, 2016 at 7:41 am

    @joel hanes:

    It is impossible to audit votes that were never cast due to inadequate polling places (reduced by 800 after SCOTUS gutted VRA) and due to repressive voter ID requirements.

    Yes. I have no doubt that Donald Trump actually won the states he did in the election. The reason he is illegitimate is because he would not have won these states if all the individuals who should have been eligible to vote and wanted to cast their vote could do so without waiting in lines for several hours or hiking a long distance to their polling places.

  60. 60.

    BillinGlendaleCA

    November 21, 2016 at 7:42 am

    @Baud: No. It’s The Car In The Field and The Missing Mustard.

  61. 61.

    gogol's wife

    November 21, 2016 at 7:44 am

    @JPL:

    I now fall asleep during whatever TCM movie I’m watching at 8:00. That never used to happen.

    Then I made the mistake of looking at the NYTimes public editor last night before bed. Still haven’t recovered.

  62. 62.

    Iowa Old Lady

    November 21, 2016 at 7:46 am

    @OzarkHillbilly: If he were a character in my book, he’d be too good a villain to kill off.

  63. 63.

    Baud

    November 21, 2016 at 7:47 am

    @BillinGlendaleCA:

    Maybe it’s a mystery series?

    The mystery of the car in the field.

    The mystery of the missing mustard.

    The mystery of the cat’s shaven ass.

    The mystery of the naked mopper.

  64. 64.

    Iowa Old Lady

    November 21, 2016 at 7:47 am

    @BillinGlendaleCA:
    I hope this story isn’t based on Balloon Juice.

    What a good idea!

    ETA: I seem to have quoted myself rather than BillinGlendaleCA. I should have some coffee before I do anything else.

  65. 65.

    weaselone

    November 21, 2016 at 7:47 am

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    I’m not sure whether in this case there would be significantly different treatment of white guys with guns. White asshats with guns occupying a wildlife sanctuary and intimidating a small town is one thing. There are people with money and power whose interests are being threatened by this protests. Firearms, penises and skin the color of newly fallen snow probably wouldn’t be enough to protect them.

  66. 66.

    OzarkHillbilly

    November 21, 2016 at 7:49 am

    @Iowa Old Lady: Not gonna say it, not gonna say it not gonna say it.

  67. 67.

    Raven

    November 21, 2016 at 7:50 am

    Yay, they had a cancellation and we got in first thing!!

  68. 68.

    Baud

    November 21, 2016 at 7:50 am

    @Raven: nice.

  69. 69.

    OzarkHillbilly

    November 21, 2016 at 7:54 am

    @Raven: Good news on a Monday morning?

  70. 70.

    Raven

    November 21, 2016 at 7:58 am

    @OzarkHillbilly: yea, we went to the walking yesterday and the PA put us on the”we can fit you in” list. They called at 7 and said come in. There is something to eat said for living within 2 miles of the medical facility.

  71. 71.

    Ella in New Mexico

    November 21, 2016 at 7:58 am

    @JPL:

    In dealing with Republicans he said, “I certainly don’t want them to do what Mitch McConnell did when I was elected,” “Meet the day of and say our sole objective is to not cooperate with him on anything even if the country is about to go into a depression so that we can gain seats in the mid-terms and defeat him.”

    How soon before the Kill Bernie team attacks our President for selfishly protecting his own interests by allying with the enemy? I mean, he did have the audacity to run against Hilary Clinton once. ;-)

  72. 72.

    Kay

    November 21, 2016 at 8:00 am

    Not to alarm anyone but Ivanka Trump is choosing the next Secretary of Education. She’s researching by visiting one NYC charter school. That’s enough, right? A 20 minute walk-through of one school in one city?

    It’s just so sad. She literally could not get a job running my school district, which serves about 3000 students. Our superintendents were and are MUCH more qualified. She’s now setting policy for 50 million.

    Sorry, but this is a joke. I refuse to lower my standards this much. None of the people in this family are qualified to do the work they’re doing and it’s fantasy to think it will all work out okay because some mysterious force of goodness will intervene. They may as well pluck random people off the street and pronounce them qualified. It’s a fucking travesty.

  73. 73.

    Baud

    November 21, 2016 at 8:02 am

    @Kay:

    Not to alarm anyone but Ivanka Trump is choosing the next Secretary of Education.

    Remember when Bill and Hillary were criticized for the co-president thing. Good times.

  74. 74.

    Shalimar

    November 21, 2016 at 8:02 am

    @rikyrah: Sessions is the perfect Attorney General for the current Republican party. He made his name prosecuting black voting rights activists for bullshit vote fraud 30 years ago. Registering people to vote is about to become as illegal as it was in the Jim Crow South, with the Civil Rights Division doing the enforcement. Defeating his nomination is more important than all the other terrible nominations and appointments.

  75. 75.

    Glidwrith

    November 21, 2016 at 8:06 am

    @Schlemazel: Hey, don’t horn in on my territory. If you try to be uncool then I won’t be uncool and everyone else will try to be uncool and I will have to find something else to be uncool about.

  76. 76.

    JPL

    November 21, 2016 at 8:07 am

    @Kay: The President-elect assured us that his family would not be involved in the government. They would run the business.

  77. 77.

    Kay

    November 21, 2016 at 8:07 am

    @Baud:

    Her resume wouldn’t get her an interview to run any school district in the country. She has no relevant experience or education. It’s actually quite competitive.

    She’d be out in the first round of reviews as an oddball who is applying for a job she’s not remotely qualified for and people would wonder why she bothered. That’s the truth and all the soothing words urging civility won’t change it.

  78. 78.

    D58826

    November 21, 2016 at 8:08 am

    After reading a couple of articles on the math challenged GOP budget plans I wish these folks had been my math teachers in school. I would have won a Nobel in Math by now.

    (hint – took years to figure out the 1+1 = 2 thing. Still working on 2 + 2 = something or other).

  79. 79.

    mai naem mobile

    November 21, 2016 at 8:09 am

    I am just going to use my second amendment rights and get a bunch of guns,get those big buckets of food, get a toto toilet and hide myself up in the mountains.I won’t get a teevee or cell signal so I won’t know what Putisconi Shitler is doing.

  80. 80.

    Another Scott

    November 21, 2016 at 8:09 am

    @Kay: I can’t help but think this – all the public floating of people who might be in the running for whatever position – is all window-dressing so that he and his team stays in the news. Cutting down on the free oxygen they get may weaken them, or at least slow their growth.

    Trump is going to have the final say based on whatever his SIL puts in front of him. It’s ultimately on Trump, not on Ivanka or Melania or Barron or whoever.

    We know he’s going to try to appoint horrible people and try to implement horrible policies. We aren’t normalizing their behavior by waiting to see whoever the pick is or whatever the policy proposal is before using up our outrage and ammunition. Save some for the battles ahead! :-)

    A few days ago there were stories about the lack of interest in the inauguration as shown by lack of hotel bookings. Is that still the case? Maybe we can push that meme for a while. “Trump is so unpopular that hardly anyone is coming to DC!”

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  81. 81.

    OzarkHillbilly

    November 21, 2016 at 8:09 am

    @Raven: Beats the hell out of waiting 4 days to see my surgeon for my shoulder and then another 2 weeks for the surgery. On the up side he did give me some good drugs.

  82. 82.

    D58826

    November 21, 2016 at 8:11 am

    @JPL: That’s easy to explain. They will sell the government to Trump Oink and then just run it into the ground like the rest of his businesses.

  83. 83.

    mai naem mobile

    November 21, 2016 at 8:14 am

    @Kay: Wrong – Ivanka is interviewing the Sec of Ed to see how Trump Inc. can profit from Dept of Ed.

  84. 84.

    rickstersherpa

    November 21, 2016 at 8:16 am

    @BillinGlendaleCA: There are not really that many principled “libertarians.” Further, drug laws really do not affect the rich and well off (except for a celebrity here or there who simply makes it impossible for the cops to ignore). They are a measure of social control for the poor and working classes, and once the national stop and frisk and shoe me your paper law is passed, there will be a lot enforcement aimed at the Brown and Black with the idea of, at a minimum, disenfranchising as many as possible with felony convictions. Further, there will have to distractions from the many failure and inherent contradictions of Trumps and the Republicans policies come 2018 and 2020.

    However, first there will be the boom so expect 2017 to be a year of Trump triumphant.
    http://www.calculatedriskblog.com/2016/11/some-earlythoughts-on-impact-of-trump.html

  85. 85.

    Phylllis

    November 21, 2016 at 8:20 am

    @Kay: We had a Title I meeting at one of the schools last week. I know for a fact the principal voted for you know who. I told them what I’m hearing from those in the know is that while the Every Student Succeeds Act is considered settled law and will stay in place, what will likely happen to the federal education funds attached to it is the same as the IRS & the Post Office. Leave the law/agency in place & starve the budget over the next several years to fund vouchers/school choice/charter schools that is clearly outlined as education policy on his website. She looked green around the gills.

  86. 86.

    Iowa Old Lady

    November 21, 2016 at 8:20 am

    @Kay: Plainly education is women’s business, so Ivanka gets to make the call. She’s a woman, after all. The men have more important things to do.

  87. 87.

    Keith G

    November 21, 2016 at 8:21 am

    What stage of Kubler-Ross is the complaining and the seemingly emotional prostration that I am seeing here? Jesus, as if the election in and of itself was not bad enough.

    Get a grip. Get busy.

    Find, or develop, networks of action. Everyday do at least one thing that sends a message or prepares you for taking action in the future. Me….Many medical appointments. At each one I tell whoever is working with me that I am only there and on the mend because of Obamacare and I need them to consider adding their voices to any professional organizations who will be pushing back against repeal. I get more positive feedback that I thought I might.

    I am sorry, but this “Oh I can’t sleep” or “Oh, I can’t get out of bed shit” is a dead end. There are actually folks who have yet to get proper medical care, who can’t afford to kvetch with the help of Comcast, who really need some of y’all to get over this and get your asses moving.

  88. 88.

    Kay

    November 21, 2016 at 8:22 am

    @JPL:

    The President-elect assured us that his family would not be involved in the government.

    That isn’t really what he said. He said they would run the business and he wouldn’t run the business, because of course he did- he thinks everyone is focused on his stupid business. He missed the point of the question entirely.

    Remember Khan? “You have sacrificed nothing”. That’s the Trumps in a nutshell.

    They’re not even moving to DC. Too inconvenient. Not where they choose to live. They’ll be running the banana republic out of Trump Tower.

  89. 89.

    Baud

    November 21, 2016 at 8:24 am

    @Keith G: Good on you. But chill. Not everyone is there yet.

  90. 90.

    satby

    November 21, 2016 at 8:28 am

    @Another Scott: I think that’s Drumpf’s Achilles heel: he needs to be admired and the center of attention like other living things need oxygen. And some of his voters are beginning to have buyers remorse even before he starts. And when he isn’t as easily manipulated as the Republican leadership expects it could get interesting. The bad part is We all have to live through that.

  91. 91.

    bemused

    November 21, 2016 at 8:29 am

    @Baud:

    I get it too but people with chronic insomnia are hard-pressed just to get their basic responsibilities done. Sleep deprivation is the pits.

  92. 92.

    OGLiberal

    November 21, 2016 at 8:35 am

    Audit the election? No, not worth it, not going to change anything, will look like sour grapes. Yes, I understand the arguments regarding voter suppression but those arguments are about making it hard for folks to vote, not not counting their votes. And I think even those concerns were overblown. Not something that should have been ignored and still shouldn’t but easily overcome by coming out in the numbers that this election should have merited.

    Their side came out like they always do. Presidential elections, mid-terms, etc – they came out. Because we had a woman – please note that this is a big difference, because it was – who was less than inspiring and, to some, kind of off putting (whatever that means) as a candidate, our side didn’t come out in the numbers it should have. Had it, this wouldn’t have even been a contest – even with new crappy voters laws and Russian rat fucking. We have the numbers to overcome that. Heck, we did in the popular vote. But in key states that matter, we didn’t show up. And yeah, the media didn’t help, but out voters are supposed to be smart enough, cynical enough, to see through that BS. This is our fault. Own it.

  93. 93.

    Patricia Kayden

    November 21, 2016 at 8:37 am

    @Keith G: People are moving in your direction but it’s still a shock that the new President is Trump. Give people time to process the election and good for you for taking concrete action. We’re getting there.

  94. 94.

    Matt

    November 21, 2016 at 8:37 am

    Worst part of the whole thing is the cluelessness of the mild Trumpkins. Just got off the phone from explaining to my very right-wing parents that I *won’t* be coming to Thanksgiving because I will lose it at the first person who brings up politics. They insisted “we never talk about that stuff” – apparently the constant refrain of talk-radio dreck they swim in is so ingrained in them they don’t even think parroting it at the dinner table counts as “politics”.

  95. 95.

    Keith G

    November 21, 2016 at 8:38 am

    @bemused: To be clear…Chronic insomnia (or even those like me who have had an anxiety/depression diagnoses, luckily very manageable) is not what I was speaking to.

  96. 96.

    Baud

    November 21, 2016 at 8:39 am

    @OGLiberal: Agree.

  97. 97.

    Kay

    November 21, 2016 at 8:39 am

    Donald Trump has current, live disputes that are before the National Labor Relations Board.

    Asking the people on the other side in those cases to accept that they will get a fair process when he’s President is too much to ask. They would have to live in an alternate reality to accept that as legitimate. They won’t and I won’t, because it’s a fantasy and makes a joke out of “process”.

    He’ll bring the whole thing down with these conflicts. Voluntary compliance with judicial orders or adjudications rests on legitimacy. It is WHY people don’t defy orders. If that goes they’ll have to use more and more enforcement mechanisms, because the thing is grounded in legitimacy. These aren’t just rules and norms for the sake of rules and norms. They rest on huge assumptions. If those assumptions are no longer valid voluntary compliance erodes.

  98. 98.

    Patricia Kayden

    November 21, 2016 at 8:40 am

    @OGLiberal: You are so right about voter apathy leading to Trump’s election. Sigh.

  99. 99.

    bemused

    November 21, 2016 at 8:41 am

    @Keith G:

    Good.

  100. 100.

    Keith G

    November 21, 2016 at 8:42 am

    @Patricia Kayden: I just to not want the power of, “Yes we can!” to be eroded by, “Oh my god! We are fucked!”

  101. 101.

    Baud

    November 21, 2016 at 8:42 am

    @Matt: I cancelled my Thanksgiving plans.

  102. 102.

    gvg

    November 21, 2016 at 8:43 am

    he needs attention. I think he is going to be shocked when attendance drops off at his planned rallies. People have things to do and attending after election rallies isn’t on workers calendars. What we do have time for all Presidents is complaining about. Even if he was competent there will be an endless kvetching from everyone, all sides. This is a drawback to electing a nonpolitician. He doesn’t know how to judge and ignore. He also has training as something else, a game show host, and has the wrong instincts for this job. As for hawking Trump hotels…you know even if he was honest, he has been selling his stuff for so long, I don’t think he knows how to stop. Its like breathing to him, he just does it. It never occurred to him, he would need to stop and I don’t think he can. I suspect he could have a stroke with memory loss but would still try sell his things. If he did set up a real blind trust (how I don’t know) he would still push his business, only then, people would probably be able to get away with just lying about it to him.
    in the past he has seemed to not care about bad versus good publicity, I wonder how thats going to work now.

  103. 103.

    Kay

    November 21, 2016 at 8:45 am

    When Donald Trump doesn’t pay federal income taxes again this year and 99% of us above a certain income do, what does that do to the credibility of the leader of the federal government? How can he run a government he refuses to pay for, and brags about not paying for?

  104. 104.

    WereBear

    November 21, 2016 at 8:48 am

    @rickstersherpa: Thanks, I am going to start following that to get a sense of what is happening.

    It reminds me of the way WSJ op-eds used to be full of cray-cray; but the news was in depth and accurate. Because that was about money. That they took seriously.

  105. 105.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    November 21, 2016 at 8:48 am

    Worth keeping in mind certain things are just futile with the close minded. When the other people are screaming about how wronged they because some coffee shop clerk wasn’t deferential enough their isn’t much one can say that will get threw to someone that thin skinned.

  106. 106.

    OzarkHillbilly

    November 21, 2016 at 8:49 am

    @Baud: I haven’t, but they might get cancelled for me.

  107. 107.

    Baud

    November 21, 2016 at 8:51 am

    @OzarkHillbilly: To each his own. People need to make these decisions for themselves.

  108. 108.

    WereBear

    November 21, 2016 at 8:51 am

    @Matt: the constant refrain of talk-radio dreck they swim in is so ingrained in them they don’t even think parroting it at the dinner table counts as “politics”

    Talk about normalizing the cray-cray.

  109. 109.

    Keith G

    November 21, 2016 at 8:51 am

    @Kay: Things like that are why I believe we need to prepare for momentum to be on our side sooner than one might think. But if there is a vacuum, the momentum will waft away.

    A wave is only a good surfing wave if there is a gal/guy on a board out there ready to go.

  110. 110.

    Kay

    November 21, 2016 at 8:56 am

    Blake Hounshell ‏@blakehounshell 2h2 hours ago
    Trump registered eight companies in Saudi Arabia during the presidential campaign

    People should prepare for systemic corruption at every level of the federal government. Media is giving you bad advice. They’re telling you it will be okay and they know nothing about this person or his family other than what was public record or he chose to release. The election was a shock. The consequences of the election shouldn’t also be a shock. The whistling in the dark is childish and weak. Normal, prudent grownups prepare for the worst and hope for the best. They don’t join hands and sing songs and wish it away.

  111. 111.

    cmorenc

    November 21, 2016 at 8:57 am

    @Shalimar:

    @rikyrah: Sessions is the perfect Attorney General for the current Republican party. He made his name prosecuting black voting rights activists for bullshit vote fraud 30 years ago. Registering people to vote is about to become as illegal as it was in the Jim Crow South, with the Civil Rights Division doing the enforcement. Defeating his nomination is more important than all the other terrible nominations and appointments.

    The dilemma is that suppose we succeed in defeating Sessions’ nomination. The most likely result will be that the incoming Trump administration will then do one of two things in selecting the next nominee for AG: 1) find a lower-profile “stealth” candidate with similar political/racial/ethnic views as Sessions, without such an easily targeted track record; OR 2) choose a different, but equally repugnant kind of awful person as AG (e.g. along the lines of Rudy Giuliani or Chris Christie, except maybe as in possibility #1 someone with less target-rich political baggage). Whatever we do, we’re not likely to get someone at AG with integrity, albeit of much more conservative political bent that we’d prefer.

  112. 112.

    JPL

    November 21, 2016 at 8:59 am

    @Kay: Trump won’t release his taxes, so will we ever really know?

  113. 113.

    satby

    November 21, 2016 at 9:01 am

    @Baud: Well, along with efg, I will remind people here that if anyone is in the vicinity of S.Bend and is a holiday refugee from right wing or politically apathetic family, my door is open. Stronger together people!

  114. 114.

    bemused

    November 21, 2016 at 9:03 am

    Katherine Cramer, prof at U of Wisc, Madison, has been talking with rural/small town Republican in Wisconsin for 10 years gathering their political, cultural views. She found the coffee klatches where they gather to talk in cafes, kwik stop places.

    What they believed and bitched about wasn’t really new to me but a few things did pop out. They don’t want to answer polls and surveys from media/educated elites who think they are racist, sexist ignorants. When they do answer, they say they often lie. Cramer said she heard the same thing from Republicans in areas 190 miles apart.
    She asked where they get their news and they said from each other.
    The coffee klatch people she talked to were predominately middle aged white males on their way to work and retired white males. No surprise there.

  115. 115.

    OzarkHillbilly

    November 21, 2016 at 9:04 am

    @Baud: Yep. I know I can go and not talk about politics, and my wife knows it too. What she also knows is that if I hear BS I will call the person on it. So if I get disinvited it will be because they don’t trust the other party and that’s OK with me, everybody has to make their own call. Besides, I don’t like holidays anyway.

    Plus my stepdaughter will send a # of huge platefuls of food home for me. :-)

  116. 116.

    Kay

    November 21, 2016 at 9:04 am

    @Keith G:

    Keith, I’m not sure an ordinary political and electioneering response is sufficient for this situation. I feel like all of this assumes a Trump Presidency will be “normal” and we long ago left the realm of normal. I recognize that people can disagree on this but I feel like I;m being asked to advise on wallpaper patterns when the house is burning down.

    Frankly, Obama is the only political leader who seems to get what I consider the gravity of the situation. The President is hugely concerned and Obama’s the calmest, most measured President in my memory.

  117. 117.

    bystander

    November 21, 2016 at 9:04 am

    @Baud:

    @BillinGlendaleCA: Mapplethorpe would be proud.

    Before I click, could someone tell me what Bill is using for a vase?

  118. 118.

    rikyrah

    November 21, 2016 at 9:05 am

    @Kay:

    Not to alarm anyone but Ivanka Trump is choosing the next Secretary of Education. She’s researching by visiting one NYC charter school. That’s enough, right? A 20 minute walk-through of one school in one city?

    ALARM AWAY, KAY.

  119. 119.

    mike in dc

    November 21, 2016 at 9:06 am

    @JPL:
    The minimum requirement for the media is to keep pressing on it until he admits he’s never ever going to release his taxes, audit or no, re-election run or no. Some of them won’t press on it, but some will.

  120. 120.

    Belafon

    November 21, 2016 at 9:08 am

    @cmorenc: We still have to fight. Our Congress people still have to fight.

  121. 121.

    Elizabelle

    November 21, 2016 at 9:11 am

    MSNBC/Mika was on in the hotel breakfast room. I kept my meal down. And fled as soon as possible. At least it wasn’t Fox.

    Happy Monday, all.

    ETA: I don’t even like her voice anymore. I know my worth. I am too valuable to be subjected to the likes of her.

  122. 122.

    Gin & Tonic

    November 21, 2016 at 9:13 am

    @bystander: This.

  123. 123.

    Kay

    November 21, 2016 at 9:14 am

    @Keith G:

    What’s the one common characteristic of catastrophically bad decisions? The assumption that what has happened in the past will continue to happen. We just saw this assumption at play in the election. It’s why the financial crisis happened. X more D voters in Milwaukee or calling Chuck Schumer’s office just doesn’t seem like realistically grappling with what’s happened. I don’t know what this is yet. I don’t believe the people who say they know what it is, for a REALLY good reason. They were all WRONG less than a month ago.

  124. 124.

    O. Felix Culpa

    November 21, 2016 at 9:15 am

    @Kay:

    Normal, prudent grownups prepare for the worst and hope for the best. They don’t join hands and sing songs and wish it away.

    I agree, Kay. In order to keep from puking my guts out, I’ve been making (almost daily) calls to my legislators, signing the online petitions for whatever effect they might have, sending money to Planned Parenthood, the ACLU, etc., and meeting with the local Dems to plan next steps. Have also made travel arrangements to D.C. for the Jan. 21st march. And post stuff on FB. :)

    Do you have suggestions for additional activities – that might have an actual impact?

  125. 125.

    OzarkHillbilly

    November 21, 2016 at 9:17 am

    @bystander: Ahhh go on, take a chance.

  126. 126.

    Patricia Kayden

    November 21, 2016 at 9:20 am

    @Elizabelle: YAY!! Giving up Morning Joe is a step in the right direction. I cannot watch MSNBC anymore. I’ll miss some of the hosts but I cannot be bothered with any cable news after how they coddled Trump. Also given up reading Dilbert. Scott Adams’ fake support for Secretary Clinton and derision of liberals was too much this election cycle. Can’t ignore it anymore.

    @Keith G: Well, both of those could be true. Yes we can but for the next four years, we may be beeped. We’ll just have to keep fighting and encouraging our leadership to do the same to minimize the beeping.

  127. 127.

    Kay

    November 21, 2016 at 9:22 am

    @Keith G:

    To me, the arc of this thing looks like this: we were told GOP leadership or one of the other candidates would stop Trump in the primary. They didn’t. Then we were told something or other might or might not happen at the convention. Nothing happened. Then we were told “wait until the general election! Then the real scrutiny begins!” Except all the scrutiny was directed to Hillary Clinton. Now we have the transition where Trump is putting in a far Right cabinet and violating every ethical norm there is, and we’re again being assured that all is well because Congress will step up any minute now.

    When will I believe someone will rein in Donald Trump? When someone DOES.

  128. 128.

    Gin & Tonic

    November 21, 2016 at 9:26 am

    @Kay: There was a thread last night or the night before, lot of comments by Suzanne, although others were participating, about the devaluing of education/credentials in the American polity these days. The seeming dismissal of the idea that someone who went to college and graduate school actually has obtained some knowledge that is worth something in the marketplace. The return to prominence of a strain of anti-intellectualism.

    I juxtapose this with a book I’ve started reading about Mao’s Great Leap Forward, which was largely premised on the fiction that the ignorant Chinese peasant could make (and was making) unprecedented breakthroughs in agronomy, such that the country would soon have so much food they wouldn’t know what to do with it. Actual scientifically-trained agronomists were shot or sent to “re-education.” Of course reality overtook the fiction, and 30-50 million people perished from the ensuing famine.

    Now, of course, a significant portion of the doctorates awarded in American universities in the sciences go to ethnic Chinese, while we celebrate yokelism. While I do not expect 10 % of the US population to starve, I do fully expect that my grandchildren will be working for the Chinese.

  129. 129.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    November 21, 2016 at 9:28 am

    @Kay:

    Not to alarm anyone but Ivanka Trump is choosing the next Secretary of Education.

    So that’s how Trump is going to do it – divide the cabinet up among his family as their fiefdoms? I was curious how someone as lazy and inattentive as Trump was going to do a 18 hour a day job like the president.

  130. 130.

    JPL

    November 21, 2016 at 9:30 am

    @Kay: Bill Clinton wanted a passport for an aide, so he could accompany him to North Korea to get the release of two journalists. Both sides!
    The Clinton Foundation also took money from Qatar and Saudi Arabia. Now look at Trump’s ties to foreign countries.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/a-scramble-to-assess-the-dangers-of-president-elects-global-business-empire/2016/11/20/1bbdc2a2-ad18-11e6-a31b-4b6397e625d0_story.html

  131. 131.

    WereBear

    November 21, 2016 at 9:31 am

    @bemused: I bought her book, have not read, it, regretted the purchase, but not soon enough to let me return it.

  132. 132.

    Keith G

    November 21, 2016 at 9:31 am

    @Kay: interesting. You’re several comments do tend to make me want to find a desk crawl under and curl up. I won’t. Want to say more but the bus is coming

  133. 133.

    Glidwrith

    November 21, 2016 at 9:32 am

    @O. Felix Culpa: @Kay: If I may ask you both, would you know how much the local Dem parties communicate with each other or with the ones farther up the food chain?

  134. 134.

    mk3872

    November 21, 2016 at 9:33 am

    Hey, look, the Alt-Right had a celebration for our new “non-racist” president-elect! http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/21/us/alt-right-salutes-donald-trump.html

    “But now his tone changed as he began to tell the audience of more than 200 people, mostly young men, what they had been waiting to hear. He railed against Jews and, with a smile, quoted Nazi propaganda in the original German. America, he said, belonged to white people, whom he called the “children of the sun,” a race of conquerors and creators who had been marginalized but now, in the era of President-elect Donald J. Trump, were “awakening to their own identity.”

  135. 135.

    Betty Cracker

    November 21, 2016 at 9:33 am

    @cmorenc: It’s still worth shooting down the Sessions nomination, or at least having as many Democrats as possible opposing it (and taking note of those who don’t). If nothing else, the people who realize Sessions is a decades-long leap back into a troubled past can take some heart from the opposition. Let the GOP have to look for a stealth bigot to install in that position instead. This ain’t Alabama; neo-Confederates and misogynists should have to hide their abhorrent views.

  136. 136.

    Kay

    November 21, 2016 at 9:37 am

    @O. Felix Culpa:

    If there’s going to be An Opposition then I would say the opposition should focus on one thing. But that assumes a level of cohesion and agreement that in my view doesn’t exist in the Democratic Party or the Left. It’s never existed. The joke about Democrats and liberals survived so long because it’s true – they’re a coalition and it’s fragile. There’s not even a connection between Congressional leaders and the base of the Party right now. Congressional leaders are talking about an infrastructure bill and the base is freaking out. It’s not in any way clicking- the pieces aren’t coming together in any way that even allows me to think about this in an orderly way. I feel like we’re flailing- frantic energy expended in 50 different directions while the Right marches in lockstep to line up behind Trump.

  137. 137.

    gogol's wife

    November 21, 2016 at 9:38 am

    Okay, I’m rejoining AARP because of a guy in the Connecticut office who reassured me. They will be vigilant about any proposals brought forward in Congress. I still like that other group, though. And I don’t understand why it took me 10 days and 50 phone calls to get this message.

  138. 138.

    D58826

    November 21, 2016 at 9:38 am

    @Kay: Funny how the Clinton tax returns showed them paying a big chuck of federal taxes. Now I just wonder if they had really been the crooks that ‘every one’ said they were why didn’t they structure all of the book deals/speakers fees/etc in such a way as to either avoid taxes completely or at least have them taxed as passive/investment type income at the 15% rate? I’m by no means a tax expert but I suspect there are a few loops holes they could have used to lower their tax bill.

  139. 139.

    WereBear

    November 21, 2016 at 9:39 am

    @Kay: When will I believe someone will rein in Donald Trump? When someone DOES.

    Yes. This.

    I feel the same way; like I got the Cassandra role in the disaster movie where I run around saying that sound like dinosaurs roaring really is dinosaurs roaring, and we should postpone that picnic.

  140. 140.

    JPL

    November 21, 2016 at 9:40 am

    I streamed MSNBC and listened to a conversation about whether or not the latest Trump tweets were just a diversion from his settlement of a fraud case, his meeting with businessmen from India, and the nomination of Sessions. Of course, the conversation continued talking about Hamilton.

  141. 141.

    Elizabelle

    November 21, 2016 at 9:41 am

    @Kay: Thank you for treating us like grownups. I always read your comments.

    Gonna hope there are a lot of decent people out there who will not let this become “the new normal.”

  142. 142.

    brettvk

    November 21, 2016 at 9:42 am

    Re auditing the election: I came across this yesterday and don’t know if it’s sound reasoning or conspiracy thinking-

    “As a political journalist, I hate empty conspiracy theories. I like to go where the bulk of the evidence is pointing. So even though I’m as shocked at Donald Trump’s victory over Hillary Clinton as anyone else, I have been unwilling to preemptively accuse the vote totals of having been rigged or altered. It’s taken me nine days of looking at the numbers and trends and patterns, but I’ve come to the conclusion that for once, the conspiracy theorists appear to have been right: this election looks rigged…

    “It is statistically suspicious that in every state where Donald Trump pulled off an upset, he won it by right around one percent, just what he needed to win it, no more and no less. Results don’t naturally play out that way. ..

    “In order to believe that the official vote tallies are legitimate, you have to accept that all of the above legitimately happened: African-Americans in the south went from turning out in droves for Hillary Clinton in the primary to not caring if she won the general election. Donald Trump got sixty-something percent of the same-day voting in Florida. The polling averages were wrong for the first time in modern history. Trump beat his poll numbers despite having spent the primary season tending to fall below them. Clinton fell below her poll numbers despite having spent the primary season tending to beat them. In every state where Trump pulled off a shocking upset victory, he just happened to do it with one percent of the vote. And in an election that everyone cared particularly deeply about, no one really turned out to vote at all. I can accept any one of the above things happening as an isolated fluke. I cannot accept all the above happening. And so for once in my evidence-driven career, I’m left to believe that the conspiracy theorists are right: the vote tallies are rigged.”

  143. 143.

    Elizabelle

    November 21, 2016 at 9:42 am

    @Betty Cracker:

    It’s still worth shooting down the Sessions nomination, or at least having as many Democrats as possible opposing it (and taking note of those who don’t).

    Yes!

  144. 144.

    O. Felix Culpa

    November 21, 2016 at 9:43 am

    @Glidwrith:

    would you know how much the local Dem parties communicate with each other or with the ones farther up the food chain?

    Unfortunately, I don’t know, not yet at least. I think there’s a lot of communication within the state between the county and state-level organizations, but I don’t know how it works further up the line. It’s also clear that a lot of work needs to be done at the precinct and ward levels. Many of those jobs go unfilled and, even when filled, are notoriously inactive. The old fraternal-type organizations that used to support activity at the local levels don’t exist anymore and nothing has appeared to replace them. I wonder if the party needs to figure out a new way to organize itself and bring active participants in. Wish I knew how.

  145. 145.

    JPL

    November 21, 2016 at 9:43 am

    @Elizabelle:
    https://twitter.com/jelani9/status/800701759958106112

    Those who warn about not normalizing Trump, are just like the birthers.

  146. 146.

    Belafon

    November 21, 2016 at 9:43 am

    @gogol’s wife: I suspect they wouldn’t like this title, but the AARP is a Union for old people. Yes, it calls itself a special interest group, but it’s no different than a union representing workers.

  147. 147.

    Elizabelle

    November 21, 2016 at 9:45 am

    @JPL: That was in reaction to something by Howard Kurtz.

    That man is a fountain of stupid.

  148. 148.

    Raven

    November 21, 2016 at 9:45 am

    Surgery went well and she’s in the recovery room!

  149. 149.

    JPL

    November 21, 2016 at 9:46 am

    @Raven: Good. Will she be able to go home today?

  150. 150.

    Matt McIrvin

    November 21, 2016 at 9:47 am

    @Kay: The problem is that in this case, “preparing for the worst” actually means going radio silent and giving up most public political activity, because if the worst is true, they will kill us and they will kill our children and families. One head, one bullet.

    We actually have to ignore that danger to some degree if anything positive is going to happen.

  151. 151.

    OzarkHillbilly

    November 21, 2016 at 9:47 am

    @Betty Cracker: Any time you get to line up against the KKK is a winner.

  152. 152.

    Raven

    November 21, 2016 at 9:48 am

    Athens For Everyone hosted the event called “What Now? Organize.” More than 500 people attended, leaving little room even to stand at the Cotton Press. Attendees sat around the edges of the room and most stayed the length of the two-hour event.

    Climate change, access to abortions, immigrant rights, sexual assault and anti-discrimination were some things expected to be at risk during the Trump administration.

  153. 153.

    Raven

    November 21, 2016 at 9:49 am

    @JPL: Oh yea, we just have to wait for her to wake up.

  154. 154.

    JMG

    November 21, 2016 at 9:49 am

    I agree with Josh Marshall that Medicare should be the focus of the first Congressional fight. It’s winnable, hard, but winnable. Trump’s nominations for office are all going to pass, so having Dem. Senators bear witness and make the record show the facts is about all they can do. Sometimes, all the opposition can do is say, “here are the bad things that are going to happen” so it is able to say “told you so” later.
    I would not be surprised that when the new Congress convenes, Obama, who’ll still be President, meets with the Dem caucuses on the first day to help bring some order to the picture.

  155. 155.

    Glidwrith

    November 21, 2016 at 9:49 am

    @O. Felix Culpa: Thanks. I have tried twice now with Dem clubs in the area. The one yesterday had guest speakers on Assisted Suicide. That isn’t exactly the sort of action I was looking for. I will keep trying to find a chapter that is actually doing something.

  156. 156.

    O. Felix Culpa

    November 21, 2016 at 9:50 am

    @Kay:

    I feel like we’re flailing- frantic energy expended in 50 different directions while the Right marches in lockstep to line up behind Trump.

    Yes. That’s how I feel personally, too, and I don’t like it. I want to have a defined focus and set of actionable goals. I’ve been talking and meeting with various activists and leaders and nothing coherent has emerged yet. I do NOT want us to go the way of Occupy, which dissolved into a million shards of pet hobbyhorses (to mix metaphors). I try to reassure myself that it’s early days, but I’d sure love it if Democratic leaders at the national level could provide, I don’t know, leadership.

  157. 157.

    cmorenc

    November 21, 2016 at 9:50 am

    @Betty Cracker:

    @cmorenc: It’s still worth shooting down the Sessions nomination, or at least having as many Democrats as possible opposing it (and taking note of those who don’t). If nothing else, the people who realize Sessions is a decades-long leap back into a troubled past can take some heart from the opposition. Let the GOP have to look for a stealth bigot to install in that position instead. This ain’t Alabama; neo-Confederates and misogynists should have to hide their abhorrent views.

    Don’t get me wrong – I agree that it’s worth the fight against Sessions’ nomination, as a good platform to spotlight just how regressive his racial views are – they represent the way “polite” southern society thought back in the 1960s hat good “nigras” should know their proper place in southern society and politics, i.e. pre-civil rights. BTW: the term “nigras” was the word the “polite” middle-to-upper classes of southern society used instead of the full-on N-clang! word, because use of the latter was considered the usage of the impolitely overt, disreputable lower-class white rabble. I kid you all not – I grew up in eastern North Carolina in the 1950s and 1960s, and remember how the upper-crust of small-town “country club” society talked, including my own relatives.

  158. 158.

    D58826

    November 21, 2016 at 9:51 am

    @brettvk: I think what adds credence to his comments is we know the Russians have been hacking into any number of systems that are related to the electoral process, i.e. Podesta’s e-mails, DNC, etc. There are a couple of suspected hacks into state election databases. So it isn’t surprising that in what every one said was going to be a close election that the Russians would have a contingency plan to tip the election just in case. Now if Hillary had been leading in PA/WI/MI by half a million to 3/4 of a million votes it would not have worked but with the vote close they had a chance to pull it off. The reasons that she was not leading by those margins may well fall into all of the other categories that we have been discussing.

  159. 159.

    Chris

    November 21, 2016 at 9:54 am

    @Kay:
    @Kay:

    For what it’s worth, I think you have by far the best take on this election result, Trust me, I wish it wasn’t the case.

  160. 160.

    cmorenc

    November 21, 2016 at 9:55 am

    I should also mention that in southern Alabama and the panhandle of Florida (demographically and culturally identical areas), the incidence of people flying confederate flags in their yards and on front-bumper license plates vastly exceeds that of even eastern South Carolina, having recently made a trip through both to visit relatives in each.

  161. 161.

    bemused

    November 21, 2016 at 9:56 am

    @WereBear:

    I don’t plan to buy the book, not after reading articles about her research at Vox and couple of other sites. She said people don’t want to listen to Trump voters anymore and that would be a mistake. I have no idea what new insight she thinks there is to be learned if we keep listening and listening to them.

  162. 162.

    D58826

    November 21, 2016 at 9:58 am

    @JMG: I agree. Protect the filibuster (can’t believe I’m saying that) first, medicare/soc. sec. second
    then obamacare and medicaid. With the filibuster still intact you can stop the worst ofthe SCOTUS nominees’

    Cut a few quiet deals with a few Senators like Hatch, Graham to keep the filibusterer
    Lay out the case against some of the worst nominees but don’t go to the mat over them. They are going to be confirmed anyway. No sense in wasting what little political capital you have on and already forgone result.

  163. 163.

    Major Major Major Major

    November 21, 2016 at 9:58 am

    @bemused: @bemused: This is basically a tale (at least) as old as America. The only thing that’s ever moved this country in the right direction is outnumbering these people.

  164. 164.

    rickstersherpa

    November 21, 2016 at 9:59 am

    @Kay: The Presidency as reality TV Show. Further, the usual band of talking heads and right-wing grifters on Fox, CNN, CNBC, and MSNBC will be out to boost the outrage and resentment machine by echoing every Trump tweet in response to criticism and not being “fair” to him. After all, as Steve M. at No More Mr. Nice Blog writes:

    …The advantage isn’t just white solidarity — it’s the fact that Republican media outlets relentlessly reinforce the sense of Republicanism (and conservatism) as a brand. Republican conservatism may not have a firm ideological foundation — I agree with Cleek’s Law (“Today’s conservatism is the opposite of what liberals want today, updated daily”) — but the GOP base eagerly tunes in to right-wing media to have its anger at Democrats and liberals reinforced on a daily basis….”
    http://nomoremister.blogspot.com/

    John Cole twitter a linked to an article on Wayne County, Tennessee where 85% of the people voted for Trump. Their lives basically suck, but they have been told for years that they suck because of Democrats and “those people.” When things go from bad to worse under Trump, they wil be told it is all Obama’s and the Democrats fault and that the “those people are still getting “non-deserved” goodies.”

  165. 165.

    OzarkHillbilly

    November 21, 2016 at 10:03 am

    @Raven: Cool.

  166. 166.

    bemused

    November 21, 2016 at 10:04 am

    @Major Major Major Major:

    Right, nothing new. Personally, I think they want to be constantly coddled, pampered and told how precious they are which would never be enough for them.

  167. 167.

    Betty Cracker

    November 21, 2016 at 10:05 am

    @Raven: Glad to hear that. Hopefully she’ll be back home and on the mend soon!

  168. 168.

    WereBear

    November 21, 2016 at 10:06 am

    @bemused: I will share my thoughts if and when I read the book; but I agree that there isn’t any point in listening to them.

    They got what they wanted from Trump. We know all about them now.

  169. 169.

    rikyrah

    November 21, 2016 at 10:08 am

    @Kay:

    Donald Trump has current, live disputes that are before the National Labor Relations Board.

    Kay,

    I posted last night about him being in hock to the Chinese to the tune of 500 million., and the repercussions for us pulling out of TPP. Did you see that?

  170. 170.

    ArchTeryx

    November 21, 2016 at 10:08 am

    I’ve never been cool. Part of why I’ve spent a good portion of my life unemployed, including the present 3 years: It turns out even scientists (the ones that make the hiring decisions, anyway) don’t like nerds.

    I have my friends and family, my personal Avengers, and most of the time, that’s enough for me.

  171. 171.

    Glidwrith

    November 21, 2016 at 10:09 am

    @O. Felix Culpa: Yes! That is my feeling too which is why I asked about communication between local parties and up. I think we/they need to coordinate with each other: pick a topic and have all of them unleash, just like the Wingnut Worlziter. Social Security? SHRIEK! Break families? SHRIEK! Birth control? SHRIEK!

    I don’t know what else might work since we aren’t dealing with anything rational.

  172. 172.

    OzarkHillbilly

    November 21, 2016 at 10:13 am

    @WereBear: Do we know how best to show them Trump is screwing them? That said, I could not possibly face reading the drivel that oozes out of their mouths.

  173. 173.

    D58826

    November 21, 2016 at 10:14 am

    @rickstersherpa: And, from the same article, something like 60% are on some form of government assistance, mostly medicaid.

  174. 174.

    Elizabelle

    November 21, 2016 at 10:14 am

    @Matt McIrvin: Oh for god’s sake. Your comment at 150.

    I have started thinking of you as Matt McUrine. Get a hold of yourself.

    Mind you, I find a lot of your comments thoughtful, even if pessimistic. But you verge on parody, a lot.

    Courage, dude. Step away from the hysteria.

  175. 175.

    Another Scott

    November 21, 2016 at 10:15 am

    @Baud: Do something good for yourself then (everyone else, too).

    We’re going to visit my parents. He’s been a fan of Rush for decades. She said off hand a few months ago that Trump was terrible “and we’ll probably end up with Hillary”. We don’t talk about politics much, especially since I’ve been with J. ;-)

    I’m not expecting politics to come up, but even if it does, this may be our last Thanksgiving together so I can gently push back and try not to lose it… He lost his right eye to ocular melanoma a few years ago and it moved into his liver this year. He’s doing Ok so far, but the prognosis is very bad if it moves beyond the eye….

    Hang in there, everyone. Do what you need to do to stay safe and sane. We all need to be here, pulling together, come January.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  176. 176.

    bemused

    November 21, 2016 at 10:16 am

    @WereBear:

    Yes, report in on the book when you do read it. I think Major is right. Gotta wait till demographics smother them.

  177. 177.

    Elizabelle

    November 21, 2016 at 10:17 am

    @Another Scott: Best to you, Scott. What a bittersweet Thanksgiving is in store for you.

  178. 178.

    Ben Cisco

    November 21, 2016 at 10:17 am

    I have made it home, and Dad continues to improve. He has an appointment w/neurologist tomorrow, and hopefully he’ll be released (at least temporarily) to spend Thanksgiving at the house. He’s walking, talking, has most of his movement back. It’s really quite remarkable to see given the shape he was in. I’m truly grateful.

  179. 179.

    Elizabelle

    November 21, 2016 at 10:19 am

    @Ben Cisco: Glad to hear of it!

    We have a much younger [than your dad] extended family member who has beat back the Big C this year. He’s got college-age kids. Total Rebel Yell Trump supporter. Gritting my teeth a bit, even while so glad he is restored to health.

  180. 180.

    WereBear

    November 21, 2016 at 10:22 am

    @rickstersherpa: I have a slightly different take on the pathetic Trump voters.

    I am not in great shape financially. I’m married to a man who had a promising career derailed through a chronic illness, having lost my first husband and had our small business vanish because we couldn’t afford health insurance. I sold the house and used the tiny equity I got to set myself up in a new area and finish a degree to a new career.

    But the tuition rates were rising so steeply I had to derail my plans for grad school and get a full time job where I am now. It is in a recession sensitive category. I’m in a tiny apartment and an economy car.

    My point is that I am also, like them, struggling.

    But unlike them, I try to rise above. I’m not refusing to move, seek education, or learn marketable skills. I am not willing to step on others to get more for myself. I am not whining about the “good old days” and expecting someone in authority to warp the space-time continuum and bring that back.

    And that is why I am not miserable. Merely constantly friggin’ challenged.

  181. 181.

    O. Felix Culpa

    November 21, 2016 at 10:24 am

    @Glidwrith:

    I don’t know what else might work since we aren’t dealing with anything rational.

    Sigh. Which is part of the problem. I want the Democratic leadership to understand that working with a bigoted, misogynistic, know-nothing, bullying narcissist is not like business as usual. Narcissists do not work within normal boundaries. They specialize in knocking rational people off-balance because they’re so freaking outrageous and untethered to recognized norms. This makes it all the more important to have a clear, steady message and strategy articulated beforehand for Democrats to adhere to.

  182. 182.

    Amanda in the South Bay

    November 21, 2016 at 10:25 am

    So Bernie explicitly said he wants to get rid of identity politics. I guess his goal is to get rid of his non white supporters.

  183. 183.

    Major Major Major Major

    November 21, 2016 at 10:26 am

    @Amanda in the South Bay: link? This should be fun.

  184. 184.

    WaterGirl

    November 21, 2016 at 10:26 am

    @gogol’s wife: AARP whose last line of their blurb on Medicare was something like “well, if you do cut medicare, please don’t cut it for current recipients and people who are close”. As far as I’m concerned, AARP is in the category as Komen.

  185. 185.

    WaterGirl

    November 21, 2016 at 10:28 am

    @Raven: Yay, raven, good news.

  186. 186.

    gogol's wife

    November 21, 2016 at 10:28 am

    @WaterGirl:

    What’s the alternative?

  187. 187.

    Amanda in the South Bay

    November 21, 2016 at 10:29 am

    @Major Major Major Major: http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/sanders-boston-speech-identity-class-politics?utm_content=buffer9ec05&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

  188. 188.

    GregB

    November 21, 2016 at 10:32 am

    The big point is to not get caught up in the reality show soap opera outrage of the moment.

    Shed light on negative policy actions and not character flaws and ginned up made for TV bread and circus.

  189. 189.

    Major Major Major Major

    November 21, 2016 at 10:32 am

    @Amanda in the South Bay: it really is amazing how every individual’s pet issue is the reason Trump won, isn’t it?

  190. 190.

    Elizabelle

    November 21, 2016 at 10:33 am

    @GregB: Thank you.

  191. 191.

    WereBear

    November 21, 2016 at 10:34 am

    @OzarkHillbilly: Do we know how best to show them Trump is screwing them?

    I don’t know if it is possible. These people have made Denial and Rationalization into art forms.

    They already think they are poor because black people are dining on T-bone steak; they are butt-hurt that education is valued yet go to doctors when when they get diabetes; they continue to vote Republican even though Democrats have been screaming for years that we are the ones who will protect Medicare and Social Security.

    They think they have the right to meddle in other people’s marriages, sex lives, and discretionary income, yet freak out if their coffee server is not sufficiently deferential. They think their religion makes them morally superior, yet their leaders blame climate change extreme weather on “sins” that are meaningless in any ethical sense.

    We’ve all argued with them. It is not possible for facts to make a dent in their thick skulls, because they have arranged their entire lives so that will never have to happen. The guards herding them into the organ reclamation chambers could all be wearing I LOVE TRUMP buttons and they will die thinking that those buttons are a liberal plot to make them feel stupid.

    Short version: I am deeply skeptical.

  192. 192.

    O. Felix Culpa

    November 21, 2016 at 10:35 am

    @gogol’s wife: There’s the National Committee to Protect Social Security & Medicare, although I don’t know how large or effective they are: http://www.ncpssm.org/.

    AARP is a marketing organization for health insurance and other products. Their current response to proposed Medicare privatization is tepid, at best.

  193. 193.

    Amanda in the South Bay

    November 21, 2016 at 10:36 am

    @Major Major Major Major: in such a razor thin election with several what ifs that could’ve made a difference, of course he’ll double down on the (socialist) white identity politics.

  194. 194.

    Major Major Major Major

    November 21, 2016 at 10:36 am

    @Amanda in the South Bay: oh, wow, and he’s still insulting Hillary. What a classy dude, that Bernie.

  195. 195.

    Chris

    November 21, 2016 at 10:36 am

    @WereBear:

    “Not willingto step on others” is key. It’s what separates you from them.

  196. 196.

    gogol's wife

    November 21, 2016 at 10:42 am

    @O. Felix Culpa:

    I joined that other organization too.

  197. 197.

    gogol's wife

    November 21, 2016 at 10:42 am

    @O. Felix Culpa:

    The guy on the phone claimed they couldn’t get aggressive until there’s an actual proposal put forth.

  198. 198.

    O. Felix Culpa

    November 21, 2016 at 10:45 am

    @gogol’s wife:

    The guy on the phone claimed they couldn’t get aggressive until there’s an actual proposal put forth.

    Was that an AARP representative? As Aunt Em said to Elmira Gulch, “I’d like to say what I think of you, but, being a Christian woman, I can’t.”

    ETA: Referring, of course, to the tool who made that statement, not you. :)

  199. 199.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    November 21, 2016 at 10:50 am

    I don’t like Jamie Dimon, but this made me chuckle

    Hallie Jackson ‏@ HallieJackson 24m24 minutes ago Washington, DC
    Top transition source says Jamie Dimon was “never under consideration” for an admin. position. Adds pres-elect “doesn’t respect” Dimon…
    Would note timing here: coming after reports Dimon spurned transition overtures.

  200. 200.

    SenyorDave

    November 21, 2016 at 10:52 am

    I have to say this once a day in some public forum. How can Barack Obama stand the sight of Trump, much less tutor him? He should get a Nobel Prize for his efforts. And I am one person who doesn’t believe for a second that it will make Trump any better. As long as Bannon is his chief adviser that will override any of Obama’s efforts.

    I think the country would be better if Obama spoke out publicly against bannon, screw protocol.

  201. 201.

    Glidwrith

    November 21, 2016 at 10:54 am

    @O. Felix Culpa:

    This makes it all the more important to have a clear, steady message and strategy articulated beforehand for Democrats to adhere to.

    OK, so can we work out amongst ourselves at least a clear steady message that we can pass on to every officeholder and citizen we run across? Polish it here then disseminate outwards?

    My try:

    We paid for Medicare and Social Security, we should get to keep it!

    We shouldn’t die because the insurance companies are too cheap to pay!

    We shouldn’t die because the Republicans want to give tax breaks to polluters!

    @gogol’s wife:

    The guy on the phone claimed they couldn’t get aggressive until there’s an actual proposal put forth.

    Which is horse hockey – they never put out anything constructive that we would want. Call bull pucky when they even breathe on whatever general subject they are going to legislate on because all they will do is destroy or hand tax break money off to the people that put them in office.

    I need to get moving on the day……..see y’all around.

  202. 202.

    Jeffro

    November 21, 2016 at 10:54 am

    Hey, finally a little spine, a bit of a look at all that Mercer cash that kept Donald afloat and guidance he’s getting from Rebekah Mercer now.

    We can just refer to her as Donald’s third puppet master, after Putin and Ryan. ;)

  203. 203.

    Major Major Major Major

    November 21, 2016 at 10:58 am

    @SenyorDave:

    He should get a Nobel Prize for his efforts.

    Fun fact…

  204. 204.

    O. Felix Culpa

    November 21, 2016 at 10:59 am

    @Glidwrith:

    I need to get moving on the day……..see y’all around.

    Me too. Have to prepare a lecture on alternative methods of inventory valuation for tonight. The good news is it might put me (and the class) into a coma. Wake me in 2020. Or perhaps better not.

  205. 205.

    Elizabelle

    November 21, 2016 at 11:00 am

    @O. Felix Culpa: Did you watch The Wizard of Oz last night? TBS?

    I did. It stands up well.

  206. 206.

    tobie

    November 21, 2016 at 11:01 am

    @OGLiberal:

    Audit the election? No, not worth it, not going to change anything, will look like sour grapes.

    I recognize that there are so many things to be outraged about these days, and so many conflicts of interest in the incoming administration, that we may not want to waste firepower on an audit. But count me in as someone who thinks auditing is “worth it” even if we don’t end up doing it. Trump won EVERY swing state and Clinton’s midwestern firewall states by the thinnest of margins. The victories do strike one as surgical in nature, and they do not jibe with data from other states that were not considered critical to an HRC victory. Dems made historic inroads in Georgia, Texas, and Arizona…and yet lost Florida? It’s possible but it’s odd. Same goes for PA.

  207. 207.

    O. Felix Culpa

    November 21, 2016 at 11:04 am

    @Elizabelle: Alas, I missed it. But love that movie…and agreed that it holds up well.

  208. 208.

    tobie

    November 21, 2016 at 11:06 am

    Just heard that Tulsi Gabbard met with Trump about a possible Cabinet position. Oh you Berners, you must be feelin’ it.

  209. 209.

    Patricia Kayden

    November 21, 2016 at 11:07 am

    @SenyorDave: In Peru, during a Q&A, President Obama stated that he will criticize Trump so I don’t see how he will “tutor” him and criticize him at the same time. I’m sure that tutor talk was just politeness. Republicans hate President Obama and wouldn’t want him to tutor their President anyways.

  210. 210.

    Patricia Kayden

    November 21, 2016 at 11:11 am

    @Amanda in the South Bay: In Vermont? I doubt there are many non-White supporters for Senator Sanders in the first place. That’s probably why he tends to be tone deaf on minority issues.

  211. 211.

    schrodinger's cat

    November 21, 2016 at 11:12 am

    @tobie: That means he is going to double down on the anti-Muslim hysteria.

  212. 212.

    Major Major Major Major

    November 21, 2016 at 11:14 am

    @Patricia Kayden: his particular brand of leftism is more than tone-deaf on minority issues, it actively says that they’re subordinate to, and caused by, class issues.

  213. 213.

    schrodinger's cat

    November 21, 2016 at 11:14 am

    @Patricia Kayden: I had a student from Vermont last semester. They love him out there. He has been a good senator to them and many of his constituents are on a first name basis with him.

  214. 214.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    November 21, 2016 at 11:15 am

    @Patricia Kayden: among the many things St Bernard is confused about is who, exactly, was practicing “identity politics” in the last campaign.

  215. 215.

    schrodinger's cat

    November 21, 2016 at 11:19 am

    @Major Major Major MajorClass struggle explains everything, that is the Marxist credo.

  216. 216.

    Major Major Major Major

    November 21, 2016 at 11:19 am

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: well, everybody knows that white and straight aren’t identities, silly.

  217. 217.

    tobie

    November 21, 2016 at 11:20 am

    @schrodinger’s cat: Is Tulsi Gabbard anti-Muslim? Honest question. I know she’s anti-TPP, pro-gun and thinks the US military needs more funding but I don’t know what her actual positions on immigration and foreign policy are.

  218. 218.

    Another Scott

    November 21, 2016 at 11:21 am

    Kurt Eichenwald doesn’t pull any punches in this piece at Newsweek (from 11/14). A good read.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  219. 219.

    Matt McIrvin

    November 21, 2016 at 11:21 am

    @Patricia Kayden: I thought Sanders actually did OK with non-white millennials.

    (There was one social-media guy I followed who was a mixed-race person from Vermont; he loved Bernie Sanders, said he was the epitome of everything he wanted in a politician, and kept saying that Hillary’s African-American support was a myth because all of the AA he personally knew preferred Sanders. Now, to his credit, from the moment Trump arrived on the scene he said he was certain Trump was going to become President and was bracing himself for it. But I finally had to stop following him because all of the daily memes pasting together Hillary’s face and Trump’s, alternating with Trump as the God-Emperor from Warhammer 40,000, started to do bad things to my mind.)

  220. 220.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    November 21, 2016 at 11:21 am

    @tobie: it’s almost as if Gabbard is not a bold and committed progressive, but rather a bold and committed Gabbardist. I, for one, am shocked.

  221. 221.

    Amanda in the South Bay

    November 21, 2016 at 11:23 am

    @Matt McIrvin: I think Bernies support with PoC/women was mostly younger skewing. Mid 30s ish seemed to be the cutoff point for that. Can’t imagine this will help things.

  222. 222.

    Major Major Major Major

    November 21, 2016 at 11:25 am

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: seems to be a recurring theme with that crew.

  223. 223.

    schrodinger's cat

    November 21, 2016 at 11:26 am

    @tobie: She is on record for many anti-Muslim stances, she calls herself a Hindu. Loved by Modi Bhakts.

  224. 224.

    tobie

    November 21, 2016 at 11:29 am

    @Major Major Major Major: Who speaks for the Dems right now? Obama’s abroad, HRC has been eliminated, Harry Reid’s retiring. This is the crisis. And self-aggrandizer-in-chief Mr. Sanders is sucking up all the oxygen in the room and the media loves it because he’s dividing the Democratic Party.

  225. 225.

    D58826

    November 21, 2016 at 11:31 am

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: given all of the really bad choices that Trump can make, Dimon might have been the best of a very bad lot

  226. 226.

    tobie

    November 21, 2016 at 11:32 am

    @schrodinger’s cat: But she also says she’s bisexual and rails against trade agreements, which is very much in India’s interest, so it’s hard for me to see BJPers in India get that excited about her.

  227. 227.

    Major Major Major Major

    November 21, 2016 at 11:32 am

    @tobie: yeah, fun times, innit?

  228. 228.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    November 21, 2016 at 11:37 am

    Jonathan Weisman ‏@ jonathanweisman 5h5 hours ago
    Hillary Clinton’s popular vote lead over Trump stands at 1,720,053 and still climbing. A strange history is being made here, very quietly.

    I wonder if this was mentioned at all on the Sunday shows?

  229. 229.

    Patricia Kayden

    November 21, 2016 at 11:37 am

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: I wonder what exactly Sanders means by the term “identity politics”. Which group has practiced and enforced identity politics in this country the most? Which group introduced identity politics to differentiate between racial groups in the first place? I trust that Sanders isn’t blaming minorities for the existence of so-called identity politics or claiming that minorities doing so played any role in Secretary Clinton’s loss.

  230. 230.

    Patricia Kayden

    November 21, 2016 at 11:39 am

    Here is Senator Sanders encouraging Democrats to move away from “identity politics”. Doesn’t sound promising to me since that is not why we lost.

  231. 231.

    ruemara

    November 21, 2016 at 11:44 am

    @Patricia Kayden: Sanders, to a lesser extent Warren and plethora of famous liberals, have been nothing but horrible post-election. Sanders should be under a rug instead of saying he’ll work with Trump and telling minorities to get out of the way so white people can get that boost up they’ve been missing for a hot millisecond. I will never trust anyone who promotes him, ever.

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Sanders himself practiced “identity politics” as in I’m pursuing the white people, because you minorities should be aware I’m the best for you. God, what a bigoted asshole.

  232. 232.

    Another Scott

    November 21, 2016 at 11:45 am

    @Patricia Kayden: There was a long piece on the BBC radio this morning on the “alt-right”. One person interviewed was some prof who argued that change has to be slow because conservatives rebel when change is too fast, and, apparently, that explains the rise of Trump and the “alt-right”. I didn’t hear the whole thing, but it would have been nice if someone had pointed out that Obama faced a wall of opposition before he even proposed anything, that Hillary has been demonized for 30 years, that when Democrats try to get input from the GOP they’re met with a wall of rejection, that it’s the GOP that tries to throw out norms like paying bills on time, not trashing the national good-faith-and-credit, etc.

    It really rubbed me the wrong way. The “alt-right” is just a new name for something that has been part of America for centuries. It’s not some new reaction to the ACA or marriage laws. Too many “conservatives” regard any non-Republican holding office as illegitimate. The only difference among those reactionaries is degree. That’s the bottom line.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  233. 233.

    Matt McIrvin

    November 21, 2016 at 11:49 am

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: So it sounds like those election-night estimates that she might lead Trump by 2 million votes could actually have been about right. I’d become skeptical.

  234. 234.

    dww44

    November 21, 2016 at 11:49 am

    @OGLiberal: I’ve been following the National Popular Vote Tracker spreadsheet and it’s now showing that total votes cast for 2016 has exceeded the total in 2012. Don’t know how that translates to a depressed Democratic turnout, unless the increase in votes were all cast for the GOP.. I know for a fact that the total votes cast in my state equals those cast in 2012 and that HRC was closer to Trump than was Obama to Romney in 2012.

    I’ve long believed that there should be periodic audits of our elections to insure their integrity. I’ve also long believed that there should be paper records of all votes, not just electronic ones. My state uses 14 year old Diebold Voting machines with no paper trail. I’ve asked at my polling place if there is a paper record of my vote and the poll workers have no idea what I’m talking about. Just as close elections trigger recounts, they should also trigger “risk-limiting audits” of some sort. What that vote tracker also shows is that Clinton won the total vote in non-swing states and lost in the 13 swing states. That can be explained by many factors, but it also can be explained by vote suppression/manipulation in just a few places.

  235. 235.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    November 21, 2016 at 11:54 am

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Hillary Clinton’s popular vote lead over Trump stands at 1,720,053 and still climbing. A strange history is being made here, very quietly.

    Alec MacGillis ‏@ AlecMacGillis 12h12 hours ago
    Nearly double Nixon’s popular-vote margin of victory in 1968.

    Silent majority indeed….

  236. 236.

    tobie

    November 21, 2016 at 11:56 am

    @dww44:

    What that vote tracker also shows is that Clinton won the total vote in non-swing states and lost in the 13 swing states. That can be explained by many factors, but it also can be explained by vote suppression/manipulation in just a few places.

    Thanks for making this point so clearly. The swing states behaved in a manner inconsistent with the rest of the nation. This is of course possible but it does raise questions.

  237. 237.

    Matt McIrvin

    November 21, 2016 at 12:00 pm

    @dww44: My impression based on current estimates is that total turnout was up from 2012 (contrary to early reports), but turnout as a fraction of eligible voters was still slightly down.

  238. 238.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    November 21, 2016 at 12:08 pm

    Crony capitalism….

    For a number of years, Trump and his Argentine partners have been trying to build a major office building in Buenos Aires. The project has been held up by a series of complications tied to financing, importation of building materials and various permitting requirements.
    According to a report out of Argentina, when Argentine President Mauricio Macri called President-Elect Trump to congratulate him on his election, Trump asked Macri to deal with the permitting issues that are currently holding up the project.

  239. 239.

    D58826

    November 21, 2016 at 12:09 pm

    @tobie: And as the article linked to above says it is very unusual for this type of odd behavior to occur all in the same direction. A saying something to the effect – once is luck, twice is co-incidence, three times is war

  240. 240.

    germy

    November 21, 2016 at 12:10 pm

    Former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton’s popular vote victory continued to grow Monday as millions of ballots remained uncounted, according to the latest ballot tally published by the Cook Political Report. The first female major-party nominee has secured nearly 2 million more votes than her opponent, billionaire Donald Trump, despite an Electoral College vote in his favor.

  241. 241.

    WereBear

    November 21, 2016 at 12:12 pm

    Wonkette: absolutely bringing it.

    Some Gentle Advice For The Brave Men And Women Of The GOP

  242. 242.

    Patricia Kayden

    November 21, 2016 at 12:15 pm

    @germy: But Glenn Greenwald and his ilk will shrug that off for some strange reason. This is great news for Secretary Clinton and Democrats although it means nothing in regard to which party controls Washington, D.C. for at least the next 2-4 years.

  243. 243.

    Major Major Major Major

    November 21, 2016 at 12:21 pm

    @D58826: it would be unusual if they weren’t all occurring for a connected reason, the most straightforward of those being that the exurban white folks who didn’t vote in 2012 and voted Trump this time (of which there were a considerable number) 1) are concentrated in certain states and 2) weren’t included much in likely voter models.

  244. 244.

    WereBear

    November 21, 2016 at 12:22 pm

    @Patricia Kayden: It means anyone who tries to tell me Trump has a “mandate” gets a Bronx cheer in the face.

  245. 245.

    Matt McIrvin

    November 21, 2016 at 12:23 pm

    @tobie: I don’t think it’s quite fair to say she lost every single swing state; it only looks like that in hindsight. Clinton won all of the Western swing states of Colorado, Nevada and New Mexico, plus Virginia (Bush 2004 states), and she eked out a win in New Hampshire (Bush 2000 state). You can argue that those aren’t swing states any more, they’re just blue states; but before Election Night, people often said the same thing about Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania.

    I think the pattern is a fairly easy-to-state geographic one: Clinton lost a lot of (relative) support in the Great Lakes region, which did not show up in polls, and she also didn’t manage to carry Florida or NC (which have been super-close for a long time). I think a combination of genuine weakness (especially in the Great Lakes states) and vote suppression (especially in FL, NC, WI) is sufficient to explain that.

    The pattern of gradual Democratic strengthening in the West seems to be continuing, though, and I think a lot of that really is demographic. I remember when people were saying that shifting demographics favored the Republicans because the population of red Sunbelt states kept increasing. Something’s happening but it’s sure not that. The Republican gains this time were in states whose share of the population is declining, for the most part (they are growing but more slowly than the country as a whole).

  246. 246.

    germy

    November 21, 2016 at 12:24 pm

    @Patricia Kayden:

    it means nothing in regard to which party controls Washington, D.C. for at least the next 2-4 years.

    It means I’ll get irritated every time some millionaire on TV talks about a Mandate or about the Will of the People.

  247. 247.

    catclub

    November 21, 2016 at 12:25 pm

    @Shalimar:

    Defeating his nomination is more important than all the other terrible nominations and appointments.

    Suppose Sessions is defeated. Do you think the next one in will be any different than Sessions on policy? Better or Worse?

  248. 248.

    germy

    November 21, 2016 at 12:26 pm

    @catclub:

    Suppose Sessions is defeated. Do you think the next one in will be any different than Sessions on policy? Better or Worse?

    It’ll be someone who was quieter about his beliefs.

  249. 249.

    OGLiberal

    November 21, 2016 at 12:29 pm

    @tobie: Exit polls – and yes, they are always suspect – show that we didn’t turn out like we did in 2012 and like we should have facing a candidate like Trump. For example, PA:

    http://www.politicspa.com/why-clinton-lost-pa-examining-the-exit-polls/80081/

    Dems stayed home, blacks stayed home, White women and post-grads swung but not enough to overcome the turnout issue. Men loved Trump – as expected. (man, I hate my gender) Too many people who would have never voted for Trump voted for Johnson or Stein. Again, these are exit polls which are generally not great but also based on people who actually voted…so they weren’t suppressed. If there was anything shady it would have been in the counting but that’s getting into deep tinfoil hat territory.

    If you identify as a Democrat, as I do, we own this. We lost. We didn’t come out. And given the threat of Trump, I’m sorry but phone banking voters who came out in 2012 shouldn’t have been necessary to push the dial 1.5% in PA, WI and MI. If you couldn’t be bothered to vote in these states then you own this. And if you voted for Johnson or Stein? Even worse.

  250. 250.

    schrodinger's cat

    November 21, 2016 at 12:31 pm

    @tobie: Haven’t you learned anything from this election. If you hate the right people everything is forgiven.

  251. 251.

    Matt McIrvin

    November 21, 2016 at 12:32 pm

    In general I am suspicious of stolen-election theories that require some kind of nationwide thing to be going on, because election systems are so dependent on state and even local governments. I would expect any blatant governmental election-stealing to happen in a patchwork of individual states where the Secretary of State is of a certain party.

    Obviously you can find common points of failure that could be hacked across a lot of states (tabulators of a common brand and election websites, say). But even there, you’d expect to find discrepancies showing up in places where there are hand recounts.

  252. 252.

    Patricia Kayden

    November 21, 2016 at 12:34 pm

    @Another Scott:

    The “alt-right” is just a new name for something that has been part of America for centuries.

    NYT tries to separate White Nationalists from White Supremacy. They all look the same to me.

  253. 253.

    schrodinger's cat

    November 21, 2016 at 12:39 pm

    @Patricia Kayden: NYT has been the Quisling of this election and this movement right from the very beginning. Do not read them.

  254. 254.

    Major Major Major Major

    November 21, 2016 at 12:47 pm

    @Matt McIrvin: I maintain that if anything was going to be hacked it would have been the Colorado SoS website.

  255. 255.

    D58826

    November 21, 2016 at 1:02 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Exactly what is the difference between that and asking for stacks of unmarked 100 dollar bills in brown paper bags?

  256. 256.

    Gretchen

    November 21, 2016 at 1:11 pm

    DOJ comment line is busy.
    I’m not saying that the voting machines were necessarily hacked by the Russians. I think that Republican-leaning machine manufacturers programmed them to undercount Democratic votes.

  257. 257.

    Gretchen

    November 21, 2016 at 1:17 pm

    @Matt McIrvin: A Kansas statistician has found discrepancies between precincts with physical tallies and those that are automated, in Wisconsin, Ohio and Kansas, always favoring Republicans. The skew is greater in larger precincts than in small. So far she has been unsuccessful in being allowed to audit: http://bethclarkson.com/?cat=4

  258. 258.

    D58826

    November 21, 2016 at 1:24 pm

    @Matt McIrvin: I think the point is that in an election that was supposed to be as close as this one and with the resources available to a state actor like Russia it would not be ‘hard’ to pick a few key states and come up with a plan to shave a few votes here and there. Obviously the key states would have to be still in play for this to happen. So if Hillary had won PA by half a million votes than the vote shaving contingency would simply go back on the shelf for the next time.

    I don’t think Putin got up Tue. morning and said lets hack the votes in PA/WI/MI to flip the election. But I would not be surprised if the KGB had a plan in pl;ace that if it was close they could hack the election. Enough strange things have happened in this election that it would not surprise me if that happened. Not saying it was likely to have happened but …….

    It’s kind of like an airliner crashing. It is always a chain of events. Take one item out of the chain and no crash. In this case the Russians were ready to add the last link to a chain that developed independently of what they were already doing

  259. 259.

    OGLiberal

    November 21, 2016 at 2:36 pm

    @dww44: Exit polls nationally show very little difference between 2012 and 2016 – Dems -1 and GOP +1. But in the states that mattered lack of Dem turnout was significant:

    PA

    2012 – D: 45%; R: 35%
    2016 – D: 42%; R: 39%

    WI

    2012 – D: 37%; R: 32%
    2016 – D: 35%; R: 34%

    MI

    2012 – D: 40%; R: 30%
    2016 – D: 40%; R: 31%

    Yes, MI shift was very small but if you look at the gap there, even that small shift would be enough. (and she could still win MI…won’t matter but she could)

    Dem turnout – lack of – was an issue. We can’t vote for rock stars every four years. Have to turn out even if they’re not rock stars, simply to stop the other side.

  260. 260.

    SWMBO

    November 21, 2016 at 4:35 pm

    In Florida there is a mandatory recount if there is less than .05% difference in the vote total. According to CNN the numbers for the election are Trump 4,605,515 Clinton 4,485,745 which is a difference of 119,770. The ratio is .0131. My question is did the other swing states that Trump won have a mandatory recount if the difference is less than 1%? How did he manage to win with just enough votes to not trigger a recount in contentious states?

    Nevermind. http://steveschale.com/ explains it.

Comments are closed.

Primary Sidebar

On The Road - PaulB - Olympic Peninsula: Salt Creek Recreation Area & Kalaloch Beach
Image by PaulB (5/10/25)

Recent Comments

  • Darkrose on Lest We Forget: Kilmar Abrego Garcia (May 16, 2025 @ 1:27am)
  • prostratedragon on Lest We Forget: Kilmar Abrego Garcia (May 16, 2025 @ 1:06am)
  • YY_Sima Qian on War for Ukraine Day 1,176: Happy Vyshyvanka Day! (May 16, 2025 @ 1:02am)
  • Jay on Political Wins Open Thread (May 16, 2025 @ 12:40am)
  • Timill on Lest We Forget: Kilmar Abrego Garcia (May 16, 2025 @ 12:38am)

PA Supreme Court At Risk

Donate

Balloon Juice Posts

View by Topic
View by Author
View by Month & Year
View by Past Author

Featuring

Medium Cool
Artists in Our Midst
Authors in Our Midst
War in Ukraine
Donate to Razom for Ukraine

🎈Keep Balloon Juice Ad Free

Become a Balloon Juice Patreon
Donate with Venmo, Zelle or PayPal

Meetups

Upcoming Ohio Meetup May 17
5/11 Post about the May 17 Ohio Meetup

Calling All Jackals

Site Feedback
Nominate a Rotating Tag
Submit Photos to On the Road
Balloon Juice Anniversary (All Links)
Balloon Juice Anniversary (All Posts)
Fix Nyms with Apostrophes

Hands Off! – Denver, San Diego & Austin

Social Media

Balloon Juice
WaterGirl
TaMara
John Cole
DougJ (aka NYT Pitchbot)
Betty Cracker
Tom Levenson
David Anderson
Major Major Major Major
DougJ NYT Pitchbot
mistermix

Keeping Track

Legal Challenges (Lawfare)
Republicans Fleeing Town Halls (TPM)
21 Letters (to Borrow or Steal)
Search Donations from a Brand

PA Supreme Court At Risk

Donate

Site Footer

Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

  • Facebook
  • RSS
  • Twitter
  • YouTube
  • Comment Policy
  • Our Authors
  • Blogroll
  • Our Artists
  • Privacy Policy

Copyright © 2025 Dev Balloon Juice · All Rights Reserved · Powered by BizBudding Inc

Share this ArticleLike this article? Email it to a friend!

Email sent!