Whenever the latest sexual harassment stories come out, a lot of people say “that’s terrible, this is so depressing”. I guess I have the opposite reaction. I already knew this kind of thing was going on and I’m glad the perps are being caught. I’ll admit to being slightly surprised by the depths of Harvey Weinstein’s depravity and a little sad about Louis CK, but nearly all of the rest sounds like standard delusional ugly older powerful guys abusing their power to get their rocks off by victimizing young women. I wish this wasn’t so common but it is. It’s great that the stories are finally getting out there. Maybe I’m getting carried away, and I know this particular moment won’t last forever, but I think we’re on the cusp of a massive positive change in workplace conditions for women.
I feel the same way about possible upcoming craziness with the Mueller probe. You and I and everyone here know what a corrupt, destructive, morally and intellectually bankrupt pile of trash the GOP is, but not everyone knows that. They should, and, on a positive note, the unpopularity of ACA repeal and the new tax bill shows that indeed that reality is being recognized more and more. I think Betty is right that:
[I]t’s fundamentally different to have a shamelessly sexist, openly bigoted, pathologically lying, anti-1A demagogue who is beholden to a foreign autocrat and a fellow traveler with white nationalist Eurotrash in the Oval. IMO. YMMV. Etc.
That’s why it would be fitting if the probe blew up in a way that badly hurt Trump and the Republican party. Being beholden to a foreign autocrat *is* something fairly new for Republicans, and I think as it comes to light, some proportion of the population that was ok with all the other awful stuff Republicans do will turn against Trump and the GOP. It only takes a few percent to move the next election from being almost-but-not-quite in the House to being a real wave.
One other thing: I know “constitutional crisis” sounds scary but we *already* live under a system where the sitting elected president lost the popular vote badly, probably won some states he would have lost if not for voter suppression, and where Democrats might win the overall House vote by 7% without getting a majority. I’d say we’re already in a major political crisis, and the more quickly people become aware of it, the better. And I’d much rather more people become aware of it because of something like presidential pardons than by 30 million people losing their health care.
TenguPhule
I am not that optimistic.
One of the worst human failings is the strong urge to never admit making a mistake.
Bobby Thomson
I hope you’re right, but it’s at least as likely that 40% will decide treason is no big deal.
gvg
It’s hard to understand why the rabid “patriots” aren’t more upset yet about the Russian puppet connections. Where is their sense of pride? To me this is just outrageous. Obviously, they don’t actually know what the word patriot means as well as several other words like Christian or freedom.
Doug!
@TenguPhule:
That’s why I think the effect is small. But look at how Trump’s popularity went down after firing Comey. It’s a small but distinct blip. We’re another small but distinct blip away from a wave election.
Doug!
@gvg:
They’re not patriots at all, they’re just racists.
Crashman
Been feeling pretty discouraged lately, so I like this take. I hope you’re right.
Neldob
Not patriots, not values voters, not pro-family or fiscally responsible. Not even conservatives. Just right-wing extremists.
TenguPhule
@gvg: They now admire Russia and its strong man.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@gvg: Russians are white Christians. They probably feel they have more in common with them than the rest of us. That and “fake news” and Trump can do no wrong because white guy like me.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@gvg:
I wonder how a member of the so-called “patriot” movement would react to being called an unAmerican fascist to their face? Also that liberals are the Real Americans.
TenguPhule
@Doug!: I think its going to require more pro-active measures.
Such as reducing the number of voting booths in Republican district. Getting a hold of Republican registrations and challenging all of them when they come to vote.
Ganders long overdue for basting.
Betty Cracker
Troof. I spend my time oscillating between hope and despair. Stuck on the latter today because Trump basically retweeted Storm Front with a charming accent, and millions did not rise up, descend on the White House and throw his bloated orange carcass into the reflecting pool. But tomorrow’s another day!
Felonius Monk
@gvg:
I don’t think it’s difficult to understand this. The rabid “patriots” are only interested in their gun toting 2nd Amendment rights. Anything else is meh. Patriotism to them is guns and whatever makes the libtards upset. Very simple.
MJS
@TenguPhule: “I am not that optimistic”, the leader in the clubhouse for Understatement of the Year”. With only one month to go, it’s doubtful anyone will seriously challenge for the title.
Ruckus
@gvg:
Part of this is that a lot of the right don’t believe it. As long as faux doesn’t say it is true, they won’t believe that it is.
TenguPhule
Trump is speaking about trade pacts.
/Facepalming hard
Trentrunner II - Pie Is Squared
Matt Lauer dropped his pants to expose his penis to at least one NBC employee.
He also had a button at his desk to remotely, discreetly lock his office door.
Also, the NBC higher-ups knew about Lauer’s behavior, protected him because of ratings.
Blow. it. all. up.
David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch
I just turned on the news to see what’s up and Twitler is stating one outrageous lie after another.
Says tax bill will target rich and cost him a fortune
Says tax bill will impose a tariff on Mexican imports which will prevent US factories from relocating to Mexico.
It’s gubmint by propaganda, disinformation, and lies.
Of course IOKIYAR so the media won’t expose the pack of ridiculous, bold face lies.
Frankensteinbeck
I feel this way about most of our political situation. Other than the sheer level of incompetence in the White House, we have been here, and what’s new is that liberals and moderates are finally being kicked into seeing that sixty million voting Americans vote based on racism. They’re not being tricked, they’re not economically anxious, and they’re not a fringe. They’ve been here for decades. They’ve been shrugging off or even mildly approving of child molestation and rape for decades.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
Also, the back lash regarding sexual harassment allegations is already starting. Wing nut relatives are already implying that women use sex to gain advantage and then scream sexual harassment. Poor put upon men! I am doing my best to stamp that crap out calmly but forcefully. However, I’m not Fox, so it will have limited effect.
Aleta
ABC news reporting Collins is a yes to advance the tax bill. Last night the message space was full at each of her offices in-state (never had that happen before), so we called the DC line. Just now, people are answering and listening at her local offices.
There’s been a huge ad blitz by the GOP-Kochs this week, telling people to call her office in support of “tax reform.” Not nearly as many ad buys against.
Getting this through is a much bigger deal for the wealthy than any investment windfall could be. Automatic 15% raise in income, no risk. Of course they’re going all out.
Imo it’s an attack on liberal education and need blind admission, too. Hurts some of the high endowment, smaller colleges. Will reduce the numbers of middle and lower class students (undergrads who receive scholarships out of endowment money too, as I understand it).
eta. Hard to overstate how much they hate equal opportunity in education, esp since discrimination in employment isn’t working as perfectly as they want.
Mary G
I used to be fairly politically inactive, but over the years Republicans and their nonsense have gotten me even more and more involved. Now I would describe myself as being in a white hot rage and I am not alone. It’s dawning on women that we are being pushed to go back into the kitchen and keep our pretty little mouths shut and we are not having it.
TenguPhule
@David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch: Its 1984 but with worse fashion.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Aleta:
It’s a real shame none of the Republicans at that baseball practice earlier in the year got shot to death.
That’s what I think now thanks to them. They’re evil and deserve to die.
lamh36
@Trentrunner II – Pie Is Squared: was reading bout that too.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@lamh36: I can’t find it now, but during the backlash to his disgraceful performance at the “national security forum” with Clinton and trump, someone leaked that he had been having an affair with the Today Show news reader whose name escapes me, and that his feud with Ann Curry started when she turned him down. Makes me wonder if Tamron Hall doesn’t have a story to tell, too.
MomSense
@lamh36:
The more terrifying problem is that the female employee wouldn’t be able to GET OUT!!!!!
ruemara
@gvg: White solidarity. I’m not kidding. White “christian” solidarity.
TenguPhule
@lamh36:
WTF.
Who allowed him to build that?
Its Bond Villain level crazy.
Aleta
Quiz: Which newspaper?
TenguPhule
@Aleta: FTFNYT.
Trentrunner II - Pie Is Squared
AP reports:
Moore is going to win Alabama.
TenguPhule
You lie, John Cole.
Ridnik Chrome
This is why the Republicans fought the Merrick Garland nomination so hard. A liberal working majority on the SCOTUS would have meant that a whole slew of right-wing chicanery, from gerrymandering to vote suppression to shady campaign financing, would have come to an abrupt halt. And that kind of chicanery is increasingly the only thing keeping the Republicans in power.
tobie
@Aleta: I still remember when Susan Collins insisted that all state aid be taken out of the 2009 stimulus bill since state spending was not in her view “stimulative.” These Republicans never have to pay for being glaringly wrong 99% of the time. Removing state aid, as the Dems did, didn’t get her vote in the end. But it sure weakened the stimulus package.
J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford
@Neldob: This. I was writing my friends about this just this morning. Republicans aren’t “conservative”, they’re radicals and have been since 9/11, though forces started to break through earlier in the 90s.
lamh36
“news is a flirty business…” DaFuq…Geraldo needs to shut it I’m sure the number of skeletons in his closet is more than in a graveyard
Aleta
@lamh36: In that case, lock him up and sue NBC bosses under the ground.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Trentrunner II – Pie Is Squared:
Forget it Jake, it’s Alabama. Moore was probably going to win anyway, I hate to say.
Conyers resigning wouldn’t change anything at this point. People willing to make excuses for their tribe would take this information of Dem impropriety and vote for Moore because “both sides”.
Kraux Pas
@tobie:
Thus ensuring dramatic loss in government employment in an already catastrophic jobs crisis. Obviously Collins got enough “moderate” street cred for this election cycle by voting against the overt attempts at ACA repeal, instead voting for this Trojan Horse masquerading as tax reform.
There are no real moderate Republicans, just Lucy with a football.
Hoodie
Color me pessimistic. I don’t think this will usher in any new era of sensitivity to women’s plight in the workplace, it will just motivate efforts to more explicitly shut them up a la “ag-gag” type legislation or other mechanisms. Trump will be able to deflect his own issues because his tribal base doesn’t care if he eats small children uncooked, and the revelations about media and dem pols will only feed their whataboutism. The thing to realize is that about 30% of the population are authoritarians and another 30% are sheep who are wired to reflexively follow perceived authority, which typically takes the form of an asshole dude. They’ll tut tut about Franken or Lauer, thinking they’ve met their moral obligations, and do nothing about Trump because they’re basically afraid of bullies. I’ve seen this movie at workplaces.
SenyorDave
The next time someone talks about how moderate or reasonable Susan Collins is, I think I’ll lose my lunch. She’s actually worse than most of the Republican senators, she knows better.
chris
@lamh36: Creepy and intimidating but normal-ish
Ridnik Chrome
@lamh36:
If Geraldo ends up joining the O’Reilly-Halperin-Rose-Lauer parade, I’m worried I might OD on schadenfreude.
Matt McIrvin
@chris: Uh… huh. Maybe that ought to be looked into?
lamh36
@lamh36: Here’s the thing…SOMEONE signed the work order for Lauer to have this installed in his office…no one thought it was weird as hell that he would need this installed in his office?
Bill Arnold
@TenguPhule:
That was a good spot by Aleta. Wonder how it got injected. Looking briefly at JIM TANKERSLEY’s articles, they’re generally not bad if read all the way through, and generally the headlines are OK, even a little edgy by FTFNYT standards. (I’d already read a few of them. Oh, and searched on byline name in the search at the top of the NYTimes site.)
Matt McIrvin
The morbid pessimist in me thinks this is the Republicans’ get-out-of-election-loss-free card, if war isn’t: about a kajillion politicians in both parties are in fact harassers of some sort, and because Democrats actually care, it’ll mostly hurt the Democrats but not the Republicans. And of course Roger Stone is pushing it hard. But it had to happen sometime, I suppose.
Schlemazel
Betty – to me some of this is VERY depressing. There are people on the list whose work I admire and that I held a good opinion of. I expected better of them. It does seem as if it is every man but I don’t want to believe that.
MJS
@Ridnik Chrome: Joining? Google “Bette Midler Geraldo Rivera”. He’s been in that club a looong time.
lamh36
@Trentrunner II – Pie Is Squared: Moore was ALWAYS even after these allegations gonna win in Alabama.
The Alabama Voter who would decide to still vote for Roy Moore even after the CREDIBLE allegations against him, is NOT gonna have come to that support cause of some “nigra” Dem Congressman or “liberal” Dem Senatore…and planned to continue to silently support him in the voter booth…
Anyone who has any moral character would STILL not vote for Moore no matter what Franken & Conyers did
Trentrunner II - Pie Is Squared
As CNN’s Jake Tapper interviews Gretchen Carlson about sexual harassment, CNN tweets out that Tapper’s producer has been fired because of sexual harassment.
Literally, simultaneous, two minutes ago.
This is an earthquake.
Matt McIrvin
…But it also has me flipping back from fretting about “should we really nominate another woman in 2020?” to thinking we MUST nominate another woman in 2020.
chris
@Matt McIrvin: I agree and find it odd to say the least.
Schlemazel
@Trentrunner II – Pie Is Squared:
hey dumbass, you do know how easy it is to add a nym to the pie filter, right?
lamh36
@Trentrunner II – Pie Is Squared: I’m just gonna repost what I said in a previous thread, and on twitter…
I’m wager, ALOT of guys (and gals) have done things that if they really thought back on it would be considered inappropriate.
There is a fine line with harmless flirting and what so many guys, esp those in powerful positions, have crossed that line on.
Back in the day, it was just accepted behaviour…I have older coworkers who talk about the things that happened among coworkers and I’ll admit, I just SMH…cause there is NO WAY that it would be acceptable behavior…
It’s why so many guys, are feeling the heat w/all these firings and allegations going around…cause they gotta be thinking…wait…have I done something like this before….
I agree with Doug on twitter, if nothing else comes of this climate, other than victims being believed when credible, and folks who were showcasing predatory behavior before, are brought up short by the fear of it…I’m all for it…even if folks I happen to like get caught up in the riptide
germy
@MJS: Jerry Rivers is next.
Trentrunner II - Pie Is Squared
@Schlemazel: lol
TenguPhule
@chris:
Guarantee you that each and every one of them put it to the use it was obviously intended for.
LurkerNoLonger
@Trentrunner II – Pie Is Squared: You got the VA governors race spot on, right Kreskin?
rp
@TenguPhule: Yeah, I wouldn’t call that info. exculpatory for Lauer.
oatler.
@TenguPhule: It’s like Rock Hudson’s “Student Testing” system in the movie Pretty Maids All In a Row, a movie which COULD NOT ever get made today
TenguPhule
@rp: Yeah “But we all had this little feature!” means the scope just widened.
TenguPhule
@oatler.:
Not true. It could still be made, but it would have to go full prono.
Millard Filmore
@TenguPhule:
How far up the management chain did knowledge of this apparatus and its purpose go? More heads will roll for this.
TenguPhule
@Millard Filmore:
Apparently to the point that this was a common feature among the executives at 30 rock.
Mike in NC
@TenguPhule: If Matt Lauer was so damn special that got to commute to work by helicopter (!), who knows what other little “perks” he insisted be in his contract?
Amaranthine RBG
If only. Recall the Shrub holding hands with the Saudis, home of most of the 9/11 hijackers and funder of a global network of madrasas that spread Wahabi fundamentalism. Not to mention the misogyny.
Most in Trump’s base pivoted to “Putin is a strong leader” mindset months ago.
Amaranthine RBG
@TenguPhule:
Our receptionist has a buzzer that locks/unlocks the glass doors between reception and the elevator bank.
Most of our management office have remote locks as well as remote openers/closers on the doors as well as cameras to see on the other side of the door. Makes sense if you get a sensitive phone call and don’t want your assistant to hear, you can just press a button at your desk as opposed to having to get up and walk over to the door.
This can’t be that unusual.
West of the Rockies (been a while)
Hey, I haven’t seen Hovercraft in a while here. Am I just missing her comments? Is she okay?
Brachiator
@Hoodie:
You might be right. I don’t know what may happen in the long term. But at least right now, some women (and some men) are finally being vindicated.
In addition to the terrible things that some of these people had done to them, there were a number who also had their careers destroyed, or who gave up trying to do what they wanted to do with their lives because of the men who preyed upon them.
Aleta
NBC was aware for months that Ramin Setoodeh and Elizabeth Wagmeister were reporting the Matt Lauer story. Aware much longer that Lauer was misogynist.
They waited to announce his firing today, on the eve of the tax bill vote.
And they allowed Lauer to question HRC and DT in a biased and sexist farce of an election prime time special.
Lauer got fired today, but if the tax crime bill goes through, he’ll get a 15% raise on whatever future income he makes out of the remains of that 28 million annual salary.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Amaranthine RBG: Having worked for a Fortune 500 company, locks on the entrance to the company premises(lobby entrance) is pretty common; locks to an individual’s office, that’s pretty rare(I think I’ve only seen one).
David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch
@tobie: actually it did get her vote. they needed 60 votes and only had 57 at the time (Franken was tied up in recount, Kennedy was on death bed, Spector was still a republican).
Amaranthine RBG
@?BillinGlendaleCA:
Next you’re going to tell me it’s unusual to conclude staff meetings by throwing someone out of a helicopter.
David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch
@Aleta: would it be The
New YorkNazi Times?Kathleen
@Frankensteinbeck: I hope you’re right that liberals and moderates are seeing the truth. I’m so old I remember in the early to mid 60’s where Nazis, Southern racists and John Birch Society were bad (one news reporter actually used term “right wing nuts”). Media had many of the problems it has today but at least I felt there was a sense of proportion and context. Reporters seemed a lot smarter. Or maybe I’m just indulging in nostalgia. I highly recommend the book Dallas 1963 for an excellent overview of the right wing in its early stages. On some level nothing much has really changed.
Kathleen
@ruemara: Yup. The demise of racist white culture cannot come soon enough for me.
Aleta
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Amaranthine RBG: How’s the pie? I hear is really good with ice cream.
Amaranthine RBG
@?BillinGlendaleCA:
@?BillinGlendaleCA:
Kathleen
@lamh36: What about you, Geraldo? Didn’t you engage in some sexting of his own when you turned 70? Trigger Warning!!!!
http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/gossip/geraldo-rivera-posts-nude-selfie-twitter-article-1.1404964
TenguPhule
@Aleta: Are you kidding me?!
Kathleen
@TenguPhule: The hits keep coming.
TenguPhule
@Kathleen: I don’t recognize this country anymore.
Roger Moore
@chris:
IOW, the sexual harassment problem started at the top and Lauer is just a sacrificial goat.
J R in WV
I can imagine a news person who covered crime and serious stories worrying that someone might come through his door with a weapon, and have a lock for that reason. Otherwise, no legitimate reason as far as I can see.
And when was the last time Matt Lauer was covering a Mob story, and fearing for his life? That’s what I thought… NEVER!!
mike in dc
Some thoughts on all the speculation/fear about Trump blowing up the investigation:
1. It might be too late already. Flynn is likely beginning to cooperate. Manafort is likely to face state charges, putting him outside of pardon territory and putting immense pressure on him to flip. Once they flip, if they have incriminating info on Trump, and the investigation is shut down–let me be clear…THAT INFORMATION WILL COME OUT IMMEDIATELY. There’s really no way to prevent that, short of executing every member of Mueller’s team and destroying all evidence.
2. Trump rarely does anything with perfect timing and expert precision. Which means he will likely make a poor showing on this as well. If you thought the handling of the Comey firing was haphazard…
3. Felony criminal indictments against multiple people are very hard to spin. Not all Republicans are tribalist fanatics impervious to facts, reason, logic and a sense of accountability. 2/3 of them may be, but we only need about 1/3 to support the rule of law. Who wants to wind up on the wrong side of history?
4. If Mueller’s investigation shows Trump to be hairline deep in a criminal conspiracy, while he may remain somewhat popular with the base, he will be radioactive with everyone else, and Republican pols, particularly purple state and light red state Senators need the votes of non-base voters. If they reject removal, they will be removed by the voters.
WaterGirl
@J R in WV: Unless the door was glass, the person with the gun would already be INSIDE your office before you could lock the door. That would just lock them in.
Citizen Alan
@Trentrunner II – Pie Is Squared:
The likelihood of Moore winning Alabama would be exactly the same whether Conyers and Franken quit or not, you sniveling Putin-loving stooge.
Chip Daniels
I read an essay connecting the pardon of Nixon as the beginning of the infantilization of the American public, when it was decided that we “couldn’t handle” an criminal trial of an ex president.
And like any true playground bully, grifters and criminals have pressed farther and farther in brazen open, testing our courage to stand up and take action.
I see a lot of that now, where open graft and corruption is winked at, and even liberal voices caution us to turn our eyes and keep on walking, to avoid the divisive and ugly consequences of impeachment and criminal trials.
We need to get over that.
J R in WV
@WaterGirl:
Certainly possible. I think I heard that he had a door closer and a camera in the hallway… which would at least shift the odds.
If I were in his office and heard the lock click behind me, I would look around for something heavy, like a trophy or a heavy lamp base, and use it on his head. Or at least threaten to. Even a side chair. Something to turn into a weapon. Take a letter opener with.
This guy is perhaps the most despicable skunk outside the official Republican party Committee.
WaterGirl
@J R in WV: Ugh. The more I hear, the worse it gets. But there’s no way he is the most despicable skunk outside the official GPF committee.
I want to see some serious consequences for higher-ups all over this country who looked the other way when they knew this stuff was happening.
Aleta
https://twitter.com/julianrouth/status/935994789606150154
the Conster
@Aleta:
I AM HERE FOR THIS!. MEN ARE TAKING THEMSELVES OUT TO THE TRASH LOL
Mike in Pasadena
@Mary G: And yet white women voted for Trump in a big way (as did a lot of white male a-holes).
Procopius
@gvg: “Rabid patriots.” I don’t think that’s me. I’m retired from the U.S. Army, but I was always aware, as some Generals and chicken hawks seem not to be, that there are domestic enemies of the constitution as well as foreign. What I am hoping is that the Muellar investigation either presents some evidence that there was really effective Russian interference in the election, OR ELSE comes out with something like, “We tried really, really hard to find proof that it happened, we even offered to drop prosecution if only people would testify , but we just weren’t able to find any credible evidence that what everybody knows is true actually happened.” Also, I am not persuaded that attempts to reduce tensions with a nuclear armed power is proof of subservience to them.
Procopius
@WaterGirl: Apparently he also had a video camera outside the door to show who was there. Sounds pretty paranoid/megalomaniacal to me, but it seems to have not been uncommon there.