Whoa if true:
I gotta say, Rey being Jar Jar Binks's daughter was a fucking curveball. Didn't see that shit coming. #TheLastJedi
— Chip Reiderson (@ChipReiderson) December 16, 2017
I’ve noticed a stealth phenomenon that may just exist in my imagination: You know how Trump keeps implying that he made it legal to say “Merry Christmas” again, as if people who accidentally uttered the words in a retail setting were dragged off to FEMA reeducation camps during the Obama administration? And now Trump supporters who aggressively wish strangers a “Merry Christmas” are actually saying “Fuck your feelings”?
Well, in Trump country, saying “Happy Holidays” feels like a mildly subversive act now, and I’ve returned that greeting in exchanges with retail clerks in deeply Republican locations with a knowing arch of the eyebrow and a half smile. Nolite te bastardes carborundorum.
Speaking of “Happy Holidays,” all my holiday shopping is done. I believe this is a personal record for me, finishing a week before Christmas, and I owe it all to online shopping. I used to be one of those miserable people who ransacked crowded malls on Christmas Eve. In the future, if I’m ever about to be murdered by a sentient robot, I’ll try to keep in mind that, in many ways, technology was worth it!
Open thread!
Corner Stone
If it’s by a sentient robot then it won’t be an act of murder but seen more as an inevitable outcome. It’s just being efficient.
Roger Moore
The part where the Porgs are actually the departed souls of generations of Jedi masters was also a great surprise.
ETA: Also, the United Federation of Planets showing up to save the Resistance at the last minute was totally unexpected.
The Moar You Know
The Brits always say “Happy Christmas”, so I do as well. It wraps the jackasses around the axle good and hard. They know you’re making fun of them but they’re not sure how.
Jerzy Russian
@Corner Stone: I am sure the robots will be “Three Laws” safe, so there will be nothing to worry about.
Silent no more
I’ve been saying “Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays” to everyone. It’s a mouthful, but seems appropriately cheerful to the season without upsetting anyone (or, perhaps, is equally upsetting to everyone).
Corner Stone
@Jerzy Russian: As my son sometimes tells me when we’re discussing some issue, “My logic is undeniable.”
jl
Happy Saturnalia, everybody!
rp
That’s funny. I’m Jewish, and I’ve never had a problem with people saying “merry christmas” to me or saying it back to others. But lately I’ve made a point of saying “happy holidays.”
Penn
I really liked the crossover where Rose called in the TARDIS at the last moment. I wonder what back-end deals had to be made for that.
Adam L Silverman
ALL HOLIDAYS MATTER!!!!
Bobby Thomson
For all the whining Hamill did before his lawyers reminded him he’s contractually obligated to promote, this is his best acting in the series (admittedly not the highest bar), and he has some incredibly thoughtful lines and great moments. There’s a lot of subversive stuff going on in this one and I like it very much.
jl
@Adam L Silverman: Obvious plug for Bobby Burns day. All the scotch and haggis a person can stomach, what’s not to like?
Annie
These people forget that if they say “*** your feelings” to us, we can say it right back at them, and act on it as well.
Major Major Major Major
Looks like it’s going to be a slow week at work, which is fine, because this is a slow week for most people. More writing time for me!
Just finished filling out my annual benefits form and realized payroll might have been under-deducting my transit passes a little. HR said shhhhh.
Cermet
Well, merry holidays to Jackals one and all here. And I heard that Rey is the incestuous product of Princess Leia and Luke – after they found out they were siblings.
Bobby Thomson
@Penn: the Pepsi product placement was a bit much. I thought we dumped that stuff with Lucas.
Roger Moore
@Adam L Silverman:
Except for Kwanzaa. Some people say they care about it, but we can all tell they’re faking.
TenguPhule
@Roger Moore: The Harry Potter crossover was horrifying.
realbtl
You got it Betty. I try to spread the holiday cheer here in NW MT. Anything to screw with their tiny little minds.
bystander
The last Star Wars movie was the most dismal mess I’ve ever seen. Harrison Ford phoned it in and Carrie Fisher was having an out of body experience. When Ford sees his son, human cypher Adam Driver, as he’s becoming the Anti-Christ and yells out, “Scott!” or whatever his Earth name is, I burst out laughing. What dreck. And I have the original, day of the opening May the Force Be withYou button.
Cacti
I’m not sure if Rey being Jar’s Jar’s daughter would have been worse than the “Leia Poppins” force float through space.
TenguPhule
@bystander: The new one is worse. Much worse.
TenguPhule
@Cacti: That was actually Hogwarts.
Amir Khalid
It makes you wonder, doesn’t it, if that’s what their Christmas cards say: on the outside “Merry Christmas”, and on the inside a hearty “Fuck your feelings!”
I remember reading that there was a time when po-faced devout Christians actually disapproved of celebrating Christmas, on the grounds that Christianity was really about the death and resurrection of Jesus. Or maybe it was reverse Schadenfreude: seeing others happy and cheerful gave them a sad.
Major Major Major Major
@TenguPhule: Thanks for validating my opinion that it’s good.
TenguPhule
@Major Major Major Major: You enjoy watching physicists cry, do you?
Ceci n est pas mon nym
@TenguPhule: Darth Vader has a horcrux?
@jl: For all that we Americans like to gross each other out by describing haggis, I had it in Scotland and enjoyed it. And the grossing out only works because as a culture we’re out of the habit of eating organ meats.
On the other hand, I have a problem with “black pudding”
Major Major Major Major
@TenguPhule: why would I care what physicists think about a fantasy space opera?
ETA are we talking about the movie or that one shot?
trollhattan
@Roger Moore:
That wasn’t the Federation, that was Littlefinger’s army. And who could have guessed Sansa is the last Jedi?
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
You know, it’s almost as if rightwing evangelicals are entitled or something when it comes to the cultural dominance of their religion. This “Merry Christmas” stuff is just a tantrum from those who resent having to share their country with non-christians.
Happy Holidays could just be a short way of saying Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.
TenguPhule
@Ceci n est pas mon nym:
Worse. Its clear that Disney saw the Harry Potter films and thought to themselves, “You know what, let’s take Star Wars and shit on all the stuff that happened in the old movies so that we can make this Harry Potter in Space, but with a woman instead so we can sucker those progressives into lauding it as progress instead of insipid bad fanfiction dreck.
TenguPhule
@Major Major Major Major: The movie. Recall the first ten minutes and then recall the really no excuse for this long chase scene.
Space does not work that way!
jl
@Ceci n est pas mon nym: That was just ribbing Adam over his Scots ancestry.
Fester Addams
I love the War on Christmas. Far and away my favorite war. Something that pits $$$-motivated businesses against befuddled christers is all good!
Major Major Major Major
@TenguPhule: the physics was abominable in the originals too. It’s fantasy in space.
Amir Khalid
Random question. Why is Feliz Navidad on the Christmas playlist of every shopping mall in Malaysia? Almost nobody here can habla.
TenguPhule
It is clear that the only way to redeem themselves for their crimes against humanity is for the Directors and writers of TFA and TLJ to commit public seppuku.
Mnemosyne
@TenguPhule:
Uh, you didn’t pay much attention to Jedi powers in the first three films, did you?
Lifting an x-wing fighter solely with the power of one’s mind was totally plausible, but what Leia did was totally impossible within the same universe with those same rules?
Major Major Major Major
@Mnemosyne: I mean laser guns go pew pew in a vacuum and are dodgeable ffs
Thursday
@TenguPhule: Right, and Space Wizards also don’t exist.
Ok, that’s a little unfair and flippant. I can understand that different people have different lines for their suspension of disbelief, but for me that was never even a question. I thought the setup worked great, and I was enthralled the entire way through.
TenguPhule
@Mnemosyne: The whole scene came completely out of nowhere with no hints, setup or explanations other then “it happened”.
I expect Jedi powers from Jedi.
Amir Khalid
@Major Major Major Major:
@TenguPhule:
Star Wars isn’t hard SF, and George never pretended it was. It’s space opera.
MattF
@Amir Khalid: Celebrating Christmas was illegal in the old Puritan New England commonwealths– they considered it a pagan holiday rebranded by the papists..
Nelle
The etymology of holiday is from the Old English, hāligdæg, meaning holy day. Seriously, why are people freaked out at essentially saying Happy Holy Day???
Meanwhile, we’re done with family Christmas (we hand the kids over to the inlaws, since the inlaws have a fit if they don’t get them exclusively) as we had our small and quiet celebration this weekend. The big event was taking the baby up for her first airplane ride (she slept for much of it). My husband is a pilot (as are three of her grandparents) so this seemed important to someone. We all gave each other books and some chocolates. That’s our sort of Christmas. My husband and I just turned our attention to what we will do on Christmas Day and find that we want to go to the beach, as we did when we lived in New Zealand. Alas, we are in Kansas. On to some other plan.
Corner Stone
@bystander: I’m still trying to figure out why Indiana Jones is in any of these darn films. And where is the Golden Monkey Head?
Ceci n est pas mon nym
@Amir Khalid: Do you also get the songs from our animated Christmas cartoons, “You’re a mean one Mr. Grinch” and everything from the Peanuts cartoon? Admittedly the jazzy instrumental signature tune is catchy. Just nothing to do with the season.
Those are on every playlist here. I’m listening to one now.
Thursday
@TenguPhule: Meanwhile, I found that scene thrilling. It’s not like that character had never shown any Force abilities before. This seemed to really be their “moment”, and I was glad they got it.
Major Major Major Major
@Nelle: it’s because you aren’t specifying that it’s your holy day and not theirs. You could be referring to pagans or atheists or even blacks!
Amir Khalid
@Ceci n est pas mon nym:
Congealed animal blood … eww. And pig’s blood, at that.
Cacti
@TenguPhule:
So, you’re saying you didn’t enjoy the completely pointless subplot of Finn and Rose?
Or the worthless characters of Laura Dern and Benicio del Toro?
Or that for some reason, the old rebellion built a stronghold that didn’t include a backdoor or escape hatch?
Or the “extra big ass AT-ATs”?
Or that Face-Timing is a new force power?
Or that Rey actually is a Mary Sue, who got her mad force and sabre skills because of reasons?
Or that there was zero exposition on where Snoke came from or how he rebuilt the Imperial war machine?
Or that every male character in the SW has become a ponytail guy and needs to have a cry every 10-minutes or so?
That’s just wrong, man. It was all teh awesome.
Mnemosyne
@Major Major Major Major:
And the bad guys continue to have the worst aim in the known universe.
TenguPhule
@Major Major Major Major: Even the originals at least had the decency not to utterly destroy any sense of disbelief, it was rule of cool. That chase scene, you can’t be telling me you didn’t cringe at it?
Major Major Major Major
“Hi, I’m Cacti and I’m a dick who spoils movies.“
“Hi Cacti.”
The first step is admitting you have a problem.
Ceci n est pas mon nym
@TenguPhule: I take it you’re considering something in the Lucas movies, in contrast, to be “good fiction”?
The Moar You Know
@bystander: Thank you, glad I wasn’t the only one. It’s not the worst Star Wars film ever made, which is really saying something about just how generally awful the franchise has been, but it still sucked.
Best one for me so far? Rouge One, by a mile.
TenguPhule
@Cacti: Or apparently that every single person in the new universe collectively grabs hold of the idiot ball and never lets go.
FFS, the bombers were Darwin Awards and whoever came up with their concept and design needs to be fed to a Sarlacc.
TenguPhule
@The Moar You Know:
Rogue One.
/Makeup Battles Commence!
Major Major Major Major
@TenguPhule: I thought the movie was great. Did it have flaws? Sure.
ruemara
@Major Major Major Major: Some people can’t just sit back & enjoy the ride. I’m not going to a science talk, I’m going to so I can be 5 again and enjoy a story. The new one is problematic. Luke … is a punk ass motherfarker. Sorry, but he is. I was pissed. And there’s some very cogent lessons including never listen to someone who says “both side” and Poe is an idiot, but he learns. This had to be the tensest Star Wars movie ever. Laura Dern was believable and can I point out how amazeballs that the Resistance has female MATURE leadership that are badasses without being action heroes? Fucking old ladies with ovaries of steel. Bless them all. I loved that. I loved the inclusion, the diversity in front of the lenses. I love the road going ever on, even as the original storytellers retire from the story. And that’s what this is about. It closes a story and opens a universe.
@The Moar You Know: Rouge One must be what’s applied to Fisher’s cheeks.
TenguPhule
@Ceci n est pas mon nym: TLJ makes Revenge of the Sith look like fucking Asimov.
Cacti
@Major Major Major Major:
Oops. I mentioned all of your favorite parts, didn’t I?
Mnemosyne
@Cacti:
I’m not answering your other spewings because SPOILERS, JACKASS!
So I guess the fanboys have forgotten all of their butthurt over the stupid “midichlorians” thing and have now decided that the Force can only be wielded by people named Skywalker. Oh, wait, you’re butthurt that Leia has Force powers, so I guess it’s only male Skywalkers who are allowed to wield the Force.
And we were supposed to care about that because … ?
Amir Khalid
@Ceci n est pas mon nym:
Not often, alas. We’re more likely to get Kenny G’s Christmas crap.
Major Major Major Major
@ruemara: Laura Dern was great. I’ve been wondering what would happen if [thing she did] since I was a kid.
I liked Luke’s arc but I can see why other people wouldn’t, that’s something where reasonable people can disagree IMO.
Mnemosyne
@TenguPhule:
“There is another.”
Who is the fuck did you think that “other” was, moron? Leia has Force powers. It’s been canon for at least a decade. Get over it.
TenguPhule
@Major Major Major Major: The whole fucking plot was built on bullshit and written by someone who either hated watching Star Wars as a Child or never watched it for themselves and went based off of what someone else told them about it. It’s that bad.
The whole thing falls apart if you stop to think even for a second “hey, this doesn’t make any sense”.
Its just one long excuse to kill people. Over and over again.
The entire movie is one big middle finger to the original trilogy.
Major Major Major Major
@Cacti: This is an incredibly stupid comment, even stupider than the previous one.
@TenguPhule:
OK, so the last one was a sloppy wet kiss to the original and you hated that, and this one refuted some portions of the original and you hated that too since it was ‘unfaithful’. Got it.
Mnemosyne
@ruemara:
Meh. Luke was never All That. Rian Johnson just took the character’s existing weaknesses and highlighted them. For me, it made his badassery at the end even more badass.
TenguPhule
@Mnemosyne:
Keep the fucks down. There was zero buildup, hints or explanations that she got trained. Original continuity had her too busy helping the galaxy put itself back together to ever complete hers. Even the ones she showed in ESB and RTOJ were that she had the empathatic Jedi abilities in strength, not a hint of the physical ones.
bystander
@The Moar You Know: Rouge One was not that bad.
And thanks to all who gave me an argument for not wasting money on this one.
Mnemosyne
This discussion of the film is spoileriffic, but I think Film Crit Hulk really gets why people either love or hate the film. Personally, I loved it, for all of the reasons he lays out.
Major Major Major Major
@TenguPhule:
Oh, that thing they announced they had ditched years ago?
Are you sure you’re mad at this movie?
TenguPhule
@Major Major Major Major:
No, I hate both of them for being terrible movies that shit on the originals. TFA was not a sloppy kiss homage, it was a fucking reset button that basically says “Hahaha, fuck you all” to the optimistic note they had ended on.
Mnemosyne
@TenguPhule:
Yes, it’s almost like maybe she got some training in the intervening 30+ years, yes? Maybe from her brother, the Last Jedi?
TenguPhule
@Major Major Major Major:
Yes, I am. This movie and TFA are garbage. Not even the actors can save this kind of bad writing.
Miss Bianca
@The Moar You Know: @TenguPhule: “Rouge One”? Is that the one where Tim Curry reprises his role as Dr. Frank N. Furter and leads the rebels in capturing the Death Star plans, all while giving them couture and make-up tips, just before the big final dance number?
Or am I thinking of something else?
Major Major Major Major
@TenguPhule: ok, you wish they’d never made any Star Wars movies after you were born, I get it
Mnemosyne
@TenguPhule:
And yet Film Crit Hulk, a guy who literally wrote a book called Screenwriting 101, loved the film and didn’t see the story problems you claim are there. ?
Ceci n est pas mon nym
@TenguPhule: Good.
I’m generally wary when other writers play in some well-known sci-fi author’s universe. But I always thought Lucas’ universe had lots of potential which Lucas himself was too terrible a writer to explore. So I’m glad these movies are happening.
BTW I haven’t seen it yet so I’m trying to avoid the spoilers. Do I take it from what I’ve read in this thread that CGI Carrie Fisher is back? Or did I misunderstand something?
Major Major Major Major
@Mnemosyne: to be fair I could write a book with that title and it wouldn’t make me an expert any more than Franken is a giant of the senate. I do like Hulk though.
Major Major Major Major
@Ceci n est pas mon nym: fisher died during post-production and they didn’t change her part, so it’s her role as intended.
TenguPhule
@Mnemosyne:
Again, not a hint, not a mention, comes completely out of nowhere. I don’t object to her having the potential to do so, I object that we’re supposed to accept it just like that without even one line prior to that explaining a little. Not even the fucking tie in novels give any clues.
The Moar You Know
@ruemara: Christ, I cannot stop fucking that one up. I’ve been told I need to focus on my spelling and communications more. My company offered to send me to this thing, it’s called a “Concentration Camp”, and boy, I could sure use some help in concentrating!
OK, awful humor, but seriously, rouge and rogue. I have a problem!
Major Major Major Major
@TenguPhule:
Why? It was clear. We know she’s force sensitive. We know it doesn’t necessarily have to be trained. Explaining it wasn’t necessary, so Rian Johnson didn’t, because he’s a good screenwriter.
Cacti
@Mnemosyne:
No numbnuts. I disliked the Leai Poppins scene because it looked really fucking stupid.
And other than MaRey Sue, could you name a single character in the history of the franchise that became an instant master of force powers and lightsaber combat versus taking months or years to become proficient? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?
As for Snoke, the total lack of explanation on how the first order came to be is just plain lazy story telling. In ANH, Obiwan gives Luke a Cliff’s Notes version of how the Empire came about and what happened to the Jedi. TLJ gives us “Who cares, it just is.”
Mnemosyne
@Major Major Major Major:
G had an interesting theory over the weekend. He thinks the fans hate this movie so much because, for the first time since Empire Strikes Back, there is no predetermined ending. People who came in during the prequels are used to knowing where the story is going and what the end point will be.
And now Rian Johnson just took a hard left turn into unknown territory, and people are pissed that he left them with nothing but uncertainty and fear … just like those of us who saw Empire Strikes Back were left in 1980 and had to wait 3 long years to find out where the story would end up.
If the fucking Ewoks come back at the end of this trilogy, I’ll be pissed.
TenguPhule
@Mnemosyne:
1. Space is not an atmosphere. There are no space sea currents that push against starships in motion.
2. Apparently the ability to dodge or take evasive action was forgotten in the last twenty years.
3. One exit.
4. Bombers apparently designed by ACME Corporation.
Cacti
@Ceci n est pas mon nym:
No, Leia from the uncanny valley isn’t in this one.
Ceci n est pas mon nym
@TenguPhule: That’s a good thing. There’s a rule of screen / playwriting: “show, don’t tell”. Exposition is a last resort to be avoided. As Bogart (I think) famously said, if you’re going to have exposition you better have camels humping in the background to keep the audience engaged.
30 years have passed. Characters have lived lives. People have been born. Other people have died. We accept that going in. I don’t need a flashback scene or five minutes of description of Leia giving birth to accept she has a grown son. For instance.
TenguPhule
@Major Major Major Major:
No, he’s a terrible and lazy screenwriter who isn’t fit to lick George Lucas’s bootheels.
And I know how bad Lucas’s original scripts were.
Major Major Major Major
@Mnemosyne:
Ooh, bad news, J.J. Abrams is in charge.
@TenguPhule: These are all stupid complaints and were also in the original trilogy.
@TenguPhule: Brick and Looper are fantastic. ETA it’s okay if you have bad taste, just don’t be an asshole about it
Lesbonnesfemmes
Cacti
@Major Major Major Major:
Stop lying. You thought Starkiller Base was genius.
TenguPhule
@Ceci n est pas mon nym:
But he’s explained as her son. Its not like she was single all along and then bam, instant son. We know she and Han got together and broke up.
Bobby Thomson
@Major Major Major Major</a the people : the people who complaint about acting and writing choices in the new movies have obviously never seen the original ones.
MisterForkbeard
@TenguPhule: Disagree. TFA was enjoyable but not ‘good’, to me. This one was more of a downer but much better, and I liked the way it subverted a lot of Star Wars expectations.
Basically, I liked TLJ more than TFA. For one thing, it made Kylo Ren an actual character rather than a super powered toddler in a mask.
TenguPhule
@Major Major Major Major: I liked looper. This, this is dreck. TLJ was pure lazy ass fanfiction level writing.
Mnemosyne
@Cacti:
Yep, can’t get over your butthurt that a lowly girl would have Force powers, can ya? She doesn’t have the lineage! It cannot be permitted! Someone check her midichlorian levels!
All that talk about how both the light and dark side of the Force have been getting stronger and stronger? Nah, let’s forget about all of that and insist that all of this came out of nowhere because you weren’t paying attention to the dialogue scenes.
Mnemosyne
@Bobby Thomson:
“You can write this shit, George, but you can’t say it!”
Bobby Thomson
@Mnemosyne: yep. I was there. I didn’t like Empire when it came out. It took years to appreciate just how good it was.
TenguPhule
@Mnemosyne:
Gee, I don’t know, because otherwise we’re left with a diablos ex machina for how the fucking Empire is back?
Get off your “Women power” high horse, we’re upset about the WRITING, not the characters.
Cacti
@Mnemosyne:
Is a poor attempt to deflect why Rey has all of the skills of Jedi with no training, because of reasons, while everyone else in the galaxy far, far away actually had to work at it.
debit
After reading the comments I guess I’m glad I don’t care about Star Wars one way or the other. I enjoyed the first movie a lot, the second less so, the third one even less and walked out 3/4 of the way through Episode 1 and never saw another.
Ceci n est pas mon nym
@TenguPhule: I wanted to add: it’s also possible that the explanatory dialogue you’re wishing for was actually there but got chopped in editing because somebody felt it was unnecessary or interrupted the flow.
Again, I haven’t seen it yet. I’m just discussing sci-fi and Star Wars in the abstract.
Major Major Major Major
@debit: If you disregard Cacti’s general assholery and TP being mad about something (highly recommended in every thread!), it’s mostly sensible discussion.
Betty Cracker
I cannot WAIT to see this movie!
stinger
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?:
For me it HAS been, for like the last 50 years. Even way back when I was a Christian. Why some people choose to consider it an insult, I’ll never understand.
I think, 100 years from now as our society grows less and less religious, the only greeting you’ll hear around the solstice is “Fuck your feelings”. The phrase will be printed on greeting cards and wrapping paper and baby bibs, and featured in holiday songs. And no one will remember why, or what their great-grandparents may have said to each other instead. It’s tailor-made for the Airing of Grievances.
Mnemosyne
@TenguPhule:
Take it up with George Lucas and all of the other filmmakers who have made space operas since 1977. Guardians of the Galaxy is not true to actual physics, either.
And stormtroopers still can’t hit the wall of a barn with a laser cannon.
Discussed in the film. And I’m not explaining the ultimate reveal since some people haven’t seen it yet.
Welcome to Star Wars. Who decided to send AT-AT walkers to an ice planet?
TenguPhule
@Mnemosyne:
No, its that “training” is the part being consistently ignored by the new trilogy. She’s supposedly graduating to Jedi Knight from trainee in less then a week? And we’re supposed to just accept that because “she’s a woman!”
Meanwhile, Luke spends months training under Yoda, then spends more time training while trying to rescue Solo and only gets his knighthood when Yoda confirms him.
And you wonder why there’s so much blowback?
So much for hard work. it hardly works.
TenguPhule
@Mnemosyne:
Which slaughtered their opponents for only 2 losses.
What point are you trying to make here?
Mnemosyne
@Cacti:
If you didn’t bother to listen to the words that came out of the characters’ mouths when they discussed that, then I can’t help you.
Bobby Thomson
@TenguPhule: evil is always with us. I mean, seriously, THAT you have a hard time accepting? Let’s have some trade federation exposition while the Jedi commute to work!
This is a much more grown up movie, with much more grown up takes on what pushes people to do evil things and what a hero is.
Cacti
@Ceci n est pas mon nym:
But that would confirm a badly written script.
In ANH, when Obiwan and Luke are getting acquainted for the first time in Obiwan’s hut, we find out in no more than a few minutes: who the Jedi were, what happened to them and the old republic, and that there was a prior conflict called the clone wars. Told a lot and didn’t require any protracted flashbacks. The first two new movies don’t give us even that much in almost 5-hours of film.
Brachiator
@Roger Moore:
I thought that was Star Lord from “Guardians of the Galaxy.”
@MisterForkbeard:
This was a tough one for me. I think the direction of the film was superior to the Abrams effort, but I think the screenplay needed at least one more pass.
HEADING DOWNTOWN TO STAR WARS SPOILER TOWN
Subverting expectations is fine if you then push the narrative in new, interesting directions. But the resulting psychological drama about a conflicted man-child and an embittered old man was not a lot of fun in the end, even though it was sprinkled throughout with fun space battles.
And I got the impression that director Rian Johnson really wanted to ditch all the characters created by Abrams and substitute his own cast. It made the film too crowded and unwieldy.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@Amir Khalid:
That was pretty much how it went until Prince Albert of Victoria and Albert quite smoothly BS’d the Protestants that what we think of Christmas was there all along.
TenguPhule
@Mnemosyne:
No, this is TLJ writers fuckup here. Lucas was smart enough to not make obvious mistakes like that which were not covered under rule of cool.
We accept sound in space because its cool, what happened in TLJ was bullshit.
Major Major Major Major
@Bobby Thomson:
I even thought Kylo (sort of) had a point when mumble mumble.
Cacti
@TenguPhule:
Goes perfectly with the deus ex machina of Rey’s mad Jedi skillz.
debit
@Major Major Major Major: I’ve enjoyed your sensible input. And also liked Looper!
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Mnemosyne:
To be fair, Star Trek was doing that “sound in space” thing before Star Wars.
MisterForkbeard
@Cacti: MAJOR SPOILER DISCUSSION – I wouldn’t normally do this, but since you’ve already spoiled this stuff I think we can talk about it. I think a few of these are valid complaints, but… most aren’t.
EDIT: Removed, because some people said they haven’t watched it yet.
Miss Bianca
@Betty Cracker: Yeah, I’m with you!/
Altho’ with all the fucking SPOILERS going on around here, I guess I won’t actually have to! Thanks, pals and gals!
ETA: I didn’t realize this was actually going to be a “new Star Wars movie major spoilers thread”. Harumph, harumph, harumph.
TenguPhule
@Bobby Thomson:
Blame the lead up to TFA.
The tie-in novels basically amount to a big Deus Ex Machina for the Empire.
And then we get the “powers super death star ultra laser with Suns” technology.
Bad Fanfiction. That’s what they produced.
MisterForkbeard
@Miss Bianca: Sorry! I removed all my spoilers after I noticed there were still quite a few people who said they hadn’t watched it yet (even after Cacti’s spoilers). Hope you didn’t see them when I was arguing with him.
That said, I really liked TLJ. It made Star Wars unpredictable and made Kylo Ren interesting, which I thought was near impossible.
@TenguPhule: “Bad Fanfiction” is precisely what I felt about TFA. But it also felt like TLJ avoided that entirely, which I really liked even if I disagree about the direction some of the characters ultimately took (Luke).
TenguPhule
@MisterForkbeard:
The bombers do.
Because finding something even more suicidal then a Y-wing bomber takes some impressive effort.
Aside from the obvious shortcoming.
Major Major Major Major
@MisterForkbeard:
I was shocked, yes.
Gravenstone
@TenguPhule: Aw, did someone get their widdle fanboi feelings hurt?
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@Cacti:
So Lieh finally hit Vader with a sexual harassment lawsuit. And we think The Donald is freaky.
I often why Hollywood has such trouble depicting positive, strong heterosexual male characters and then remind myself “Weinstein” and realize they likely never seen one.
catclub
@The Moar You Know:
When our child was small, rogue waves became ogre waves.
Miss Bianca
@MisterForkbeard: I actually skipped over your post, because you were kind enough to announce *your* spoilers! This cranky Old thanks you, anyway! ; )
TenguPhule
@Gravenstone: I am not fond of those who take a cherished childhood memory and turn it into a fucking Shaggy Dog story. So yes, I am rather upset.
MisterForkbeard
@TenguPhule: Both of those are address pretty simply:
1) New Bombers: Have about 90x the destructive capability of a Y-Wing. Note that the Y-Wings are actually assault starfighters: They’re fighter-bombers that at this point are about a 60 year old design.
2) They said it was an old rebel base. The rebels have very little resources, and built a base that was primarily supposed to be impenetrable but to stay hidden. And it’s spoilers to discuss the other points.
@TenguPhule: Wow, this comment sounds like it comes straight from /r/The_Donald. “It’s all awful because evil corporations want progressives to get onboard so it’s got a girl who does awesome stuff and this threatens my entire worldview.”
Chill.
Major Major Major Major
@Enhanced Voting Techniques:
I don’t even know what to do with this sentence.
Betty Cracker
@Miss Bianca: I’m seeing it tomorrow night! Yippeeee!
MisterForkbeard
@Major Major Major Major: Laugh at it?
Cacti
@Major Major Major Major:
Adjust your ponytail and have a good cry.
Brachiator
@Mnemosyne:
I listened. I don’t think the answer made much sense. However, this did not bother me a great deal. Also, to my mind, Rey had developed fighting prowess while being abandoned on the planet we first found her on.
Some folks want to make too much a deal about her. I think you could make a similar case that Kylo’s power levels are inconsistently shown. I just cannot work up a lot of angst over this.
Bottom line. There is a general trend in American pop movie culture that the hero is always just a natural bad ass, assisted by great instincts. Training, development, practice is for losers.
Ceci n est pas mon nym
@Cacti: (Again, I have not seen it, but…)
Oh come on, tell me there has never ever been a movie where a male hero turned out to be a natural who was instantly a master of the art with hardly any training.
Karate Kid comes to mind. A day of “wax on/wax off” and you’re ready to go up against the black belts.
Avatar is another.
I’m sure other BJ readers can think of many more examples.
Edit to add: In Steven King’s “Dark Tower” series, there was too long a gap between the books (I read them as they came out) for me to remember how much training they had, but it seemed to me that Roland somehow turned his companions into instant gunslingers. Which for Roland and everyone in his world, took a lifetime of training from childhood.
TenguPhule
@Major Major Major Major: No, Rogue One showed how it can be done right. Just don’t do incredibly stupid shit.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@TenguPhule:
Do yourself a favor and watch a 60’s movie called 633 Squadron if you have any illusions of Lucas as a writer.
Fair Economist
@Mnemosyne:
Yeah, Anakin way back got his extraordinary powers from – nowhere – and that seemed to be the normal course at the time. Howcome that can’t happen to anybody else in a galaxy with umpty-umph thousand inhabited planets?
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@Major Major Major Major: Someone’s snark meter is not working,…
Major Major Major Major
@Enhanced Voting Techniques: the thread broke it when it turned into something from Reddit.
Brachiator
@MisterForkbeard:
No. No. I’m being pulled into this as well (just wanting to talk about the movie), but it has been so much anticipated by a lot of people that I think that spoilers should be avoided.
ETA: A group of us had to withdraw into a corner to talk about the film today at work. There are a couple of people who closed their eyes and stuffed fingers in their ears when Last Jedi trailers showed at the movies.
Cacti
@Ceci n est pas mon nym:
You’re moving the goalposts, because you can’t dispute that within the Star Wars film canon, there are no examples of anyone who became a master of Jedi skills with no training…Prior to the current films. And only one single character at that. Crylo Ren apparently had trained for years, but still isn’t quite equal to the hobo with god mode.
Mnemosyne
@Brachiator:
But it’s impossible for anyone to develop fighting skills outside of the Jedi training system! Cacti has decreed it so! //
TenguPhule
@MisterForkbeard:
And not even a hundredth of the survivability. FFS, the writers completely forgot about proton torpedoes in favor of literal WW II bomb chutes. Its beyond parody.
This has never been the MO of any rebel base anywhere, any when. Its contrary to the entire style the Rebellion was fought in.
No, its awful because the producers are hiding behind a girl to distract from the fact that the movie itself can’t stand up to basic scrutiny. Its an act of cowardice and its working. I have issues with the writing, not the characters.
Fair Economist
@Miss Bianca:
I’d watch that!
Major Major Major Major
@Fair Economist: Disney does own Rocky Horror and Star Wars now.
Mnemosyne
@TenguPhule:
And yet there are only two of you in this thread who feel that way, while there are at least five of us who feel differently.
It’s almost like the way you and Cacti feel is not the way most people who saw the film feel. Huh.
Cacti
@Mnemosyne:
Rey knew how to fight with a solid two handed staff. Naturally she would also be a master of a single hilted light saber with no weight or heft to the blade. Because…
Reasons.
Brachiator
@Ceci n est pas mon nym:
I detest these films. Your mileage may vary.
@TenguPhule:
Rogue One, aka “The Dirty Dozen in Outer Space” is a Frankenstein’s Monster of a movie, re-edited and stitched together.
I agree that it was largely successful, but because of necessary compromises and dropped scenes, some characters were woefully under-developed, even though the actors worked hard to make the audience like and understand them.
Mnemosyne
@Betty Cracker:
It’s very fun. Fans are butthurt because it concentrates on characters over answering questions from the tie-in novels that only they read.
Seriously, I know someone who’s mad because Phasma’s backstory wasn’t covered like it was in the books.
Cacti
@Mnemosyne:
The average fan score on metacritic is 4.9 based on 3,015 reviews. But hey, five of you. ;-)
Major Major Major Major
@Mnemosyne: the rotten tomatoes “audience score” is fairly low for TLJ. I blame, essentially, fandom and the internet. (To filter out the gamer gate effect, I will note that TFA has a fairly high audience score)
Cacti
@Major Major Major Major:
The Rotten Tomatoes fan score is tied with Attack of the Clones for the lowest in the history of the franchise.
Gravenstone
@TenguPhule: Hate to break it to you, but Lucas already shit all over the franchise nearly 20 years ago. Memories are fungible if there’s money tie be made.
Major Major Major Major
@Mnemosyne: I liked The Onion’s New Star Wars Film Once Again Disappoints Die-hard Nien Nunb Fans
Mnemosyne
@Cacti:
Please, explain it for us based on your vast experience fighting hand-to-hand combat using both weapons. We’re dying to hear it.
Cacti
@Mnemosyne:
Au contraire. You posited that they’re the same, please enlighten us how so.
I’ve also heard that there is no difference between boxing and Jiu Jitsu. Both are martial arts, after all.
Major Major Major Major
@Cacti: forgive me if I don’t put much stock in what large groups of sci-fi/fantasy fans on the internet think.
chopper
@Cacti:
because magic space ninjas, man.
Cacti
@Major Major Major Major:
It was your compadre who went argumentum ad populum.
5 of us here like it, only 2 of you don’t, ergo my view represents the typical fan experience, etc.
Lesbonnesfemmes
youtu.be/Cg-pnGFbwMQ
Try again.
Ceci n est pas mon nym
@Cacti: In fact I did feel in the original like Luke got a major shortcut in his training compared to what was supposed to be the usual. Although I do remember Yoda saying something like “wait, you’re not ready yet”, he did, in fact, turn out to be ready. Ready enough to beat Vader, who was presumably better than any other Jedi.
Major Major Major Major
@Ceci n est pas mon nym: but Luke wasn’t ready and didn’t beat Vader.
chopper
@Brachiator:
of course. American men are lazy shits who deep down inside think they have built-in secret seal team abilities that are just waiting to come out.
Cacti
@Ceci n est pas mon nym:
Watch ESB again. Luke wasn’t ready and got curb stomped by Darth Vader. He only survived the encounter because Vader wanted to capture him alive.
Brachiator
@Mnemosyne:
I have some problems with the film, but I’m an odd kind of purist. I pretty much reject the hard notion of canon (which is the same kind of bullshit as the idea that Shakespeare wrote his plays with a 5 Act structure). Also, I have never read any of the “extended universe” novels or seen the animated show or other derivative material. I only care about the movies. And if it ain’t in the movie, it never happened.
WARNING. HEADING DOWN OBLIQUELY TO SPOILER TOWN ABOUT STAR TREK
I agree with you that some (not all) “Fans are butthurt because it concentrates on characters over answering questions.” I have problems with the new “Star Trek: Discovery” show. I objected about a character who was speedily promoted despite apparently having been tortured. One person who likes the show asked, “well what about the fact that he may turn out to be a spy?” To me, this is a cute puzzle, not compelling narrative or interesting character development.
ETA. I’m also not too hot on director’s cuts, with some exceptions. Editing is about shaping a film, not just cutting shit out for time.
Just One More Canuck
@bystander: if you thought the last one was a mess, you clearly never saw any of the prequels
Mnemosyne
@Cacti:
I wasn’t bothered by her ability to fight with both. You were. And I’m supposed to explain because … ?
TenguPhule
@Ceci n est pas mon nym:
Uh no, he wasn’t. He got his hand cut off, remember.
In between ESB and RTJ, he matured,
Mnemosyne
@Brachiator:
I’m just trying to figure out how many more times the movie was supposed to whack people over the head with the yin/yang light side/dark side luxury/poverty symbolism before they got it.
TenguPhule
@Mnemosyne:
This is your version of “lalalala, fingers in my ears I can’t hear you.”
The movie’s writing was terrible. Having a female as the lead of a crap movie doesn’t magically elevate it into something else no matter how you might believe otherwise.
Mnemosyne
@TenguPhule:
I’m sorry, you’ve already stated that it’s not allowed for characters to grow or mature or train between movies without explicit discussion of exactly how it happened, so that can’t be the explanation.
TenguPhule
@Mnemosyne:
By ignoring the plot in favor of the characters. I said you were a good person, I never credited you with good taste. :P
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
Pee-ew! Smells like r/theDonald and Gamergate in this thread : )
Ceci n est pas mon nym
@TenguPhule: OK, I stand corrected. This goes with that other action movie trope, “first our hero must be defeated and then make a comeback so it adds more tension to the final confrontation with the Boss.”
So if this movie has instant mastery, I’ll accept your statement that the Lucas movies didn’t have that before. So what? It’s still an old Hollywood trope. A stupid one, but certainly one we’ve seen before. It doesn’t make sense to me to suddenly object to that particular cliche when the original films relied so heavily on so many other Hollywood cliches. I don’t see how that’s “moving the goalposts” as Cacti said.
Just One More Canuck
@Cacti: it’s just a fun movie – it’s not a documentary
Mnemosyne
@TenguPhule:
Yes, that’s the only possible reason I could think that a movie that shows aspects of the Star Wars universe we’ve never seen before and leaves us in territory that hasn’t been rehashed a thousand times could be good. You’ve got me there.
Hint: most people don’t give a shit about the physics of the Star Wars universe.
Mnemosyne
@TenguPhule:
Plot is character. If all you have is one plot event after another, you have the prequels.
I always prefer a movie with interesting characters to one with a clockwork plot. YMMV.
TenguPhule
@Mnemosyne:
Now you’re making it up as you go along.
Return SHOWED us how Luke had matured. The whole reason he went back to Yoda was to RESUME his training, thus showing he’d become more then the impulsive adventurer of the last movie.
There was not even a fucking hint in TFA or at any build up at all to the scene out of nowhere. Get off your high women stool and accept that good role model female actors can star in bad movies.
Brachiator
@Cacti:
True enough. When Luke shows up in “Return of the Jedi,” he appears to be more battle hardened, perhaps from a couple of side adventures as he was returning to find his companions. However, even Lucas was unclear on the degree of Luke’s skills.
TenguPhule
@Mnemosyne:
What is your burr? Were you one of the writers to that movie and are taking it personally that its being ripped apart?
Ceci n est pas mon nym
@Mnemosyne: If all you have is one plot event after another, you have the prequels.
(Making Jedi gesture) There were no prequels.
knightlifecomic.com/comic/star-wars-blu-ray/
Also
teespring.com/shop/official-prequel-denier-tee#pid=369&cid=6513&sid=front
/Jedi
Cacti
@Mnemosyne:
In this particular film, that literally can’t be the explanation. Because we don’t start the next film at some unspecified future point as the original films did. We start at the exact moment the previous film left off.
TenguPhule
@Mnemosyne:
A movie that fails to follow its own internal rules in an excuse plot does its characters no service.
Mnemosyne
@TenguPhule:
Except for Leia’s latent Jedi abilities being discussed in ESB and RotJ. If you missed or glossed over that then, sure, they probably seemed to come out of nowhere.
Sorry, kid, that was an Easter egg for us OG fans who remember the original trilogy.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Mnemosyne:
Apparently TenguPhule has never heard of character-driven stories.
TenguPhule
@Ceci n est pas mon nym:
So now we can toss Jedi into the joke pile because the title is apparently meaningless.
The new Aesop is “Power is everything. Its the only thing.”
TenguPhule
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: Watch the last jedi again and tell me I’m wrong about how bad the writing was.
Mnemosyne
@TenguPhule:
My “burr” is that you keep pretending that I only like TLJ because there are women starring in it despite my multiple statements that I loved the story and themes and characters. I even pointed you to an article that explains exactly what I liked and why.
The fact that you keep pretending otherwise makes you an asshole.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@TenguPhule:
Hey, at least it’s an ethos.
TenguPhule
@Mnemosyne:
What part of she showed that she had the empathatic powers did you not read?
But apparently Force Mastery of things we’ve never seen before is simply presumed these days.
chopper
@Cacti:
yeah, luke got his ass kicked in empire. and vader wasn’t even putting his back into it.
Mnemosyne
@TenguPhule:
And here is the real source of the butthurt. Lucas told you in the prequels that the Jedi became complacent and corrupt and deserved to be wiped out. TLJ says the same thing, and even brings back a beloved character to finish the job.
And people just don’t want to accept what the actual creators of the universe are telling them.
TenguPhule
@Mnemosyne: The story falls apart under scrutiny. Its not even particularly hard scrutiny. All of your attacks so far have been about the characters, who I am NOT attacking. I’m upset by the excuse plot that relies on idiot balls and internal violations of the movie’s own logic and basic physics.
Mnemosyne
@TenguPhule:
When there’s a 30+ year break in the story, sure. It’s not like we’re supposed to think Leia suddenly developed powers between TFA and TLJ.
Mnemosyne
@Cacti:
For Rey, yes. Not for Leia. And we already saw Rey master the lightsaber in TFA.
Still waiting to hear why it’s ridiculous to think Leia worked on her Jedi powers in the 30+ years between RofJ and TLJ.
TenguPhule
@Mnemosyne:
And not a hint in TFA. Not even something subtle. Because it was obvious the writers and directors are each deciding to do their own thing for each movie, maintaining a common continuity be damned.
They’ve Michael Bayed Star Wars.
Mnemosyne
@TenguPhule:
Story logic and basic physics are not the same thing. And I’m pretty sure you don’t actually understand what the idiot ball is.
chopper
@TenguPhule:
I know! they could have at least had her levitate over a sandwich or something while giving a briefing! or some needless backflips maybe?
TenguPhule
@Mnemosyne:
You’re just grasping for straws here. It comes out of nowhere. Not a hint, no lightsaber, no prior reveal in TFA other then that she still has her empathic abilities which we already knew about. The whole setup was a big lipped alligator moment.
Mnemosyne
@TenguPhule:
You have said MULTIPLE TIMES that I’m only defending the movie because it has a female lead. So, yes, attacking the characters is exactly what you’re doing.
Major Major Major Major
God, just get married already, you two.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@TenguPhule:
If you’re referencing Transformers, that series had more problems than merely not maintaining continuity between movies.
TenguPhule
@Mnemosyne:
And like most of this thread, you’d be wrong.
TenguPhule
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?:
True, but that was one of the more memorable problems with it as he kept directing them.
Cacti
@Mnemosyne:
I never said it was. I said her flight through space looked stupid.
Mnemosyne
@TenguPhule:
So we already know what the range of Jedi abilities includes, and we saw her demonstrate her known powers in TFA, and yet you made the assumption that Leia must not have any additional Jedi powers because … why, exactly?
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Major Major Major Major:
TenguPhule is sounding like a total fanboy nerd on this. Newsflash gang: most people don’t give that much of shit about “internal logic” as long as they’re entertained.
“It’s just a movie I should really just relax.”
TenguPhule
@Mnemosyne:
So far you’ve been arguing mostly about Rey and Leia. What else am I supposed to think based on the evidence at hand?
NotMax
@Major Major Major Major
After Ms Fisher’s demise, word is* the part of Leia in the next film will be played by Al Franken in drag, so it’s all good.
;)
*
Not intended to be a statement of fact.Mnemosyne
@Cacti:
So we’re having this whole argument about “MaRey Sue” over special effects? Really?
Brachiator
@Mnemosyne:
At least 3 more.
Cacti
@chopper:
Yep. Prior to getting pissed and parting Luke with his hand, Vader was dueling Luke with one hand on his hilt the whole time.
He was dicking around with him.
Mnemosyne
@TenguPhule:
You’re supposed to think that I’m trying to not spoil the entire fucking movie for people who haven’t seen it yet by only discussing the things that you and Cacti have already ruined for everyone else.
TenguPhule
@Mnemosyne:
Because nothing prior to her doing it gave any hints that she could. It was bad writing. A single line could have fixed it, even just having her with a lightsaber would have solved it.
But somehow we’re supposed to just accept that something that normally kills everyone else it has ever happened to, JEDI INCLUDED, is survivable because clap your hands if you believe.
Major Major Major Major
@Brachiator: see, even though nobody here had trouble with it, they should have kept going until the clueless idiot TP is imagining could have gotten it.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@TenguPhule:
The most memorable problem for me with those films was the over-reliance on special effects (par for the course with Bay). The worst offenses imo were the oversexualizing of Megan Fox’s character and the racist robot twins from the second movie.
Cacti
@Mnemosyne:
I didn’t have a problem with Leia’s character.
Her force flight through space was an Indiana Jones gets nuked in the fridge moment for me.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@TenguPhule:
The good guys always win. QED.
Major Major Major Major
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: I actually think internal logic/consistency is very important to the believability of a story. However, if anybody should grok how to write a story with internal logic, it’s Johnson, who penned Looper. I don’t think there were any problems with TLJ in that regard.
TenguPhule
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?:
His entire treatment of all of them was bad. Bad stereotypes of humans instead of being actual alien war machines.
We came to see the robots, not the humans. The first generation cartoons understood this.
chopper
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?:
yeah, I mean we’re talking about a movie series that all started with a badly-written “three musketeers in space” film apparently aimed primarily at selling action figures to kids. I understand getting in the weeds over politics as it actually affects people’s lives, but getting riled up over the quality of writing or plot in a fucking star wars film is pretty goofy.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Cacti:
Deep down you know that was a cool scene and Spike was a good character. Don’t deny it.
TenguPhule
@Cacti:
That’s what I was looking for as a describer.
I’d wiped that scene from my mind originally.
chopper
worst! movie! ever!
chopper
In episode 2F09, when Itchy plays Scratchy’s skeleton like a xylophone, he strikes the same rib in succession, yet he produces two clearly different tones. I mean, what are we to believe, that this is a magic xylophone, or something? Ha ha, boy, I really hope somebody got fired for that blunder.
Major Major Major Major
@chopper: ha! Basically.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@chopper: Getting really worked up over it, yeah. People like to argue about the silliest of things. Google “Superman vs Goku” sometime. You’ll have legions of fanboys combing all media for each character to prove who would win in a fight based on “feats”. It usually comes down to the poster’s favorite.
MisterForkbeard
@Brachiator: Yep! I deleted my spoilers. Don’t worry about this on my account.
My original post tried to keep it pretty light on spoilers anyway – just reiterating on what Cacti had said, mostly.
MisterForkbeard
@Mnemosyne: The dumb thing is, Rey isn’t a ‘master’ at the lightsaber and it’s shown in the film. And Snoke directly comments on why Rey was able to beat Kylo, too.
I wouldn’t say that’s a spoiler, either. Hopefully not. >_<
Cacti
@chopper:
Well, when you get to the heart of it, political blogs like BJ are places for us little people to piss in the wind over things that we individually have no power to change.
Arguments over Star Wars fit in just fine with the general spirit of the place.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@TenguPhule:
In the first generation cartoons, humans were just as much apart of the story IIRC. It was very much an 80s thing for there to be audience avatars. First gen MLP had those too.
And being perfectly honest, most 70s-80s cartoons sucked because they were often made on the cheap. Production teams didn’t put as much effort into those shows until the 90s or so. Because they were meant for kids. Which is no excuse ofc.
chopper
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?:
it is amazing how much less hokey gi joe and transformers etc cartoons looked when i was a kid. seeing them today is almost painful.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Major Major Major Major:
I do too. It’s just most moviegoers don’t as long as the movie itself is enjoyable enough and the film doesn’t dwell too long on its own inconsistencies.
Major Major Major Major
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: Sure, plot holes are for nerds, but this isn’t really a fair argument to make if we’re trying to examine the plot.
Ceci n est pas mon nym
@chopper: There is an ancient Mickey Mouse cartoon. It might be the original Disney sound cartoon, the one where he’s called “Steamboat Willie”, which features him playing the piano. That would be in 1928. And, so I have heard, he is playing the correct notes with the correct timing. Disney actually went through the trouble to synchronize the animation with the sound to that level of detail!
J R in WV
@Amir Khalid:
Many years ago, when the very first Mexican restaurant opened up in Charleston, as soon as they realized they were going to make it very comfortably, they got a Mariachi band in to stroll around at dinner. They took requests!!!
Only problem was no one knew any opoular Mexican songs to request. Except Felice Navidad. So in August, we heard it several times, like every third song all evening. They didn’t mind, it paid the same…
Mnemosyne
What Slashfilm said.
(I didn’t spot any major spoilers, but reader beware.)
Bobby Thomson
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: obligatory.
Ceci n est pas mon nym
I agree that internal logic makes for better stories, and I also prefer my sci-fi to be consistent as much as possible with the laws of physics. You have to sacrifice a little physics for almost all sci-fi, even the best. Example: Andy Weir knew damned well that the disaster that gets the ball rolling in The Martian couldn’t actually happen. But he needed it, so he did it and tried to let that be the only one. And in any sci-fi, as soon as you go FTL, you’re sacrificing something in our current understanding of physics.
I get very irritated at the excuse, “it’s fiction, just relax, there are no rules!” If there are no constraints on the universe or the characters, the story gets boring really quickly.
However, that said, I’ve learned to accept that Hollywood’s view on internal consistency is pretty lax, and so I’ve trained myself to just roll my eyes and not grumble too audibly (this also avoids getting an elbow in the ribs from my wife, or worse from the other people around us). It better be a good story otherwise though. A good character-driven story can often make up for this kind of stuff and help me forgive it.
And in fact sometimes illogic doesn’t detract at all. I’ve heard writers talk about how sometimes things don’t have to make complete sense, only just enough sense for the audience to accept it and move on. This was on the audio commentary for “Splash”, one of my favorite movies and one which I actually have no complaints about at all. That comment was kind of an epiphany for me as a movie watcher.
Mnemosyne
@TenguPhule:
Also, it’s a myth that you blow up if you end up in the vacuum of space without a spacesuit. You really just freeze to death, unless you have magical wizard powers that allow you to put a small protective bubble around yourself. But it’s not like Star Wars has characters who have magical wizard powers that allow them to do seemingly impossible physical feats in a crisis, so it’s a moot point anyway.
Mnemosyne
@chopper:
Ha! Every fool knows that was a vibraphone, not a xylophone! ?
Really, though, point taken.
TenguPhule
@Mnemosyne:
Its not the vacuum that kills you, its the fireball and blast before that which kill you first.
TenguPhule
@Ceci n est pas mon nym:
There’s lax and then there’s Wing Commander the Movie. This is a Wing Commander.
exlitigator
Whenever a conservative aggressively wishes me a Merry Christmas, I respond that “all Holidays Matter.”
jayjaybear
@Major Major Major Major: Not just the physics. Everybody in my generation sees the original SW trilogy through a lens thick with nostalgic vaseline. I heard a podcast reviewer complain about the fact that there were a lot of marketing moments in this movie (porgs, the racing rabbit-horses, the vulpcices), apparently forgetting the 2.75 billion different action figures that were made for the originals. Plus their playsets. Plus their variants. Plus their accessories. Plus fast food glasses. Plus Halloween costumes. Plus ad nauseam.
Don’t get me wrong, I am a major Star Wars fan (who still laments the depreciation of the EU) and loved the originals, hated the prequels, just like everyone else. But I liked these recent movies so far and recognize one thing that so many people seem to forget: Lucas wasn’t trying to make art. He was trying to sell stuff and make money.
MoxieM
@Amir Khalid: Late to the party, and five threads down as usual, (belum), Yeah.
In my more or less hometown of Lexington MA (“Stand your ground. Don’t fire unless fired upon, but if they mean to have a war, let it begin here.”) etc, the Christian zealots were having fits that they couldn’t put up a Christmas creche scene on the town green (Problems included that it’s a National Historic Landmark, so nothing religious is permitted etc.). Several of the churches that ring the green offered lawn space. No, nothing would do but to rant and yell about their “religious freedoms” and yadda yadda garbage.
The irony is of course that the established church of the 1770s would no more have permitted Catholics and their pagan (Popish/Romish, choose your epithet) display on public space–which at the time was simply a common cow pasture–than they would have permitted Catholics to built a church in town. Which they didn’t. It was 50 years before they permitted the Baptists to build one.
Massachusetts did not disestablish State religion until the Dedham decision of 1833. (Antidisestablishmentarian ism anyone?). And the State religion was a Calvinist-based Congregational form of individually covenanted churches that also formed the core of civic government.
Phew.
Heywood J.
I prefer to say “Season’s Beatings.” They don’t know what to make of that.
TenguPhule
@MoxieM:
And probably regretted that immediately.