Here are two of my crew chillin’
The little monsters wouldn’t let me make the bed.
This is a good article a FB friend linked to this morning:
Peter Kruger’s Answer To Political Correctness Complaint
The fact of the matter is that it wasn’t everyone saying whatever they wanted, and the fact of the matter is that there were many eyes batted.
It wasn’t all that long ago that there was a lot more social pressure on various minorities to shut up, sit down, and “know their place.” This was legally codified in Jim Crow against African-Americans, but it was socially accepted against all sorts of other groups as well, from ethnic and racial discrimination to discrimination on the basis of gender and sexual orientation.
Those in power could say whatever they wanted. Those not in power? They faced severe consequences for saying whatever they wanted. The people in power didn’t bat their eyes, they took baseball bats to those they didn’t like.
It was only twenty years ago that Matthew Shepard was beaten to a pulp, tied to a fence, and left for dead because he was gay. He was not the first to be beaten to death, discriminated against, or otherwise marginalized.
Gay people couldn’t say whatever they wanted. They faced threat of physical harm and death to even be. They sure batted an eye at that. Every gay joke told at their expense?
Eyes were batted at those.
===============
Microaggressions are the little interactions that the people in power don’t even think about, that don’t even register on their radar, that communicate to people not in power that they are not welcome, not part of the privileged class, not equal. That they are lesser. That are just based on various assumptions that may or may not have any validity to them.
================
Society didn’t shift abruptly. Microaggressions aren’t new.
You’re just hearing about it more, because the people who have been suffering it for a long time have decided that they aren’t going to suffer it anymore. The disempowered recognize that it’s time for them to be heard.
Read the whole thing here. There is so much more…
Open thread
TenguPhule
That’s it, I’m out for the rest of the day,
JFC fuck them all.
rikyrah
Dan Diamond (@ddiamond) Tweeted:
In recent days, HHS has been boosting transparency and cheerleading for ACA enrollment — trying to leave a good impression before Dems launch investigations in January.
https://t.co/STE2ZKFHs5 https://twitter.com/ddiamond/status/1073597669472374785?s=17
rikyrah
@TenguPhule:
They all belong at The Hague ??
rikyrah
Dan Diamond (@ddiamond) Tweeted:
One reason why HHS is doing clean-up work: Because there are internal paper trails, like the emails @CitizenCohn @JeffYoung obtained, that will build case Trump administration undermined the ACA and more.
https://t.co/5wISNiexGA https://twitter.com/ddiamond/status/1073603188614414337?s=17
EBT
Old well off white people hate minorities.
I learned this in Kindergarten where my public school Catholic teacher went on about how you could tell black people were sinful because they were “the color of coal”.
debbie
@rikyrah:
That won’t work, assholes.
ocean dude
Welp. Snack Team Six had to go downtown and rescue one of the cats from the spouse’s car in the hospital garage. Again. This because the cat likes to sneak into the car and take a nap. The spouse couldnt turn around bc she was called in at 3:30 am, and the cat woke up half way en route. Dumbass. Spouse was all, “Well youre in it for the long haul now cause I cant turn around.” We left behind our heavy weapons operator, aka the pit mix rescue, bc he tends to be little too gung ho, and this mission called for discretion, or at least no fighting on the way back. So I took the doodle, she is actually double doodle- labradoodle mom and golden doodle dad.
JPL
@ocean dude: Does the double doodle have a name? The cat is simply telling the world that some cats like car rides.
Spanky
That squealing sound you hear is your 401k getting another percent and a half squeezed out of it today.
And so it goes. Down 300, up 200, down 300, up 200 ….
(I need to stop obsessing. I’m retiring in February.)
ETA for up top: FLOOF!
Elizabelle
The WaPost has this up as Breaking News. I don’t quite know what to say.
Do tell. Glenn Kessler is such a fucking tool, and if he’s bailing too …
Keep the receipts, folks.
Cheryl Rofer
Elizabelle
LOL. And you click on the Breaking News link about Trump lying and people not believing him …
And you get a 404 message. Article not found. With a lovely photo of a rainbow over the Washington Monument. With this lovely text:
What gives?
gene108
@TenguPhule:
Marshall plan for Central America might do the trick…I doubt Trump would sign it…
Martin
@gene108: Yeah, hard to provide a greater disincentive than rape and murder. Apparently the WH thinks that shutting down the government and fucking everyones retirement accounts is sufficient, but I suspect that won’t work.
Ruckus
@Spanky:
You got a 401K?
Mine got wiped in the GWB recession. I’m still having to work for a couple more years so I can retire. I’d hoped to not collect SS until next year so that it would be enough but you know, food and all that stuff. So now work till 72 so that I can retire on cat food and a hovel.
A Ghost To Most
@rikyrah: They all belong on the gallows..
Chip Daniels
I’ve said this before, but whenever you hear some old fart whinging about “Political Correctness” and sensitive snowflakes, regale him with a hilarious joke involving the Virgin Mary, a donkey, and the resulting abortion.
You will get a lesson in microagression and political correctness right quick.
sheila in nc
I sent the Kruger article to my (Japanese-American-by way of Hawaii-and-Chicago) husband. He’s always being asked by white people “where he’s from.” He says “Chicago” and they say, “No, where are you REALLY from?” He finds that incredibly rude and disrespectful — as if they are saying tacitly, “Well, it’s clear you sure as hell don’t belong HERE…”
Gravenstone
@sheila in nc: Correct answer, “my mum’s belly”. Then just turn and walk away to avoid punching someone.
Spanky
@Elizabelle: Works for me.
EBT
@sheila in nc: As if is giving them too much credit. They ARE tacitly saying your husband doesn’t belong.
Martin
@sheila in nc: That happens all the time here, but at least once to pretty funny effect. A persian descent coworker alluded to a vietnamese staffer of mine of being an immigrant, which she isn’t. She was born here in OC. And she (jovially) gave back to him. But so was he. Turns out they went to the same high school but a number of years apart.
White folks do it to them so frequently that they’ve been trained to do it to each other. As for me, I’m white as can be but grew up in NY, where for years my Irish family were the one that didn’t belong here. I got those stories growing up, along with thee clear message that the only ones who can claim they belong here are the indigenous peoples that our ancestors tried to wipe out. And we won’t even give them that.
trollhattan
@sheila in nc:
A query I occasionally overhear that gives me whiplash (being raised in a “mind your own business” household) is, “What are you?” As in “explain your ethnicity to me.” And not only asked by white folks.
Humdog
The past two threads are on serious topics, but they are labeled open thread and I really need to vent.
My dogs and I just were attacked by a big white dog the neighbor up the hill always allows to roam. The culprit, Rosie, snapped at me when I was sitting in the street in front of my house. Sitting because my two dogs had entangled me in their leashes and I didn’t want to fall over. One of mine pulled her leash out of my grip and went after Rosie, but Rosie knows how to fight and she knocked my Peanut over and went for her neck and belly. Surprisingly, my screaming did not help the situation much.
Peanut came back to me bleeding, I somehow was bleeding too, I think from wrestling with the pavement. I came in for first aid and to call animal control and kinda want to venture up the hill with a golf club, primarily to get the address of the culprit, but I am shaken and don’t trust myself completely.
Gah! Adrenaline is a bitch, too. It is too early for my usual nerve soothers. Sorry to distract from such a serious topic.
Ceci n est pas mon nym
@Spanky: I feel your pain. I’m living off my retirement savings right now, and it is shrinking at an alarming rate. I put some of it (about a year’s worth) in a money market account to shelter it from an temporary crashes, but if there’s no recovery a year from now I’m going to have to start rethinking my long-term plans.
Amir Khalid
So has Zander decided that Gabe is okay after all?
tobie
I called the representative in the district where I’m registered to demand an investigation into how a 7 year old girl could die in US custody. He gave me the line that she was dehydrated from walking through the desert, but I reminded him that she had also been in US custody for 8 hours before her seizures started. Call your rep to demand an investigation. It may be even more important to do so if they’re a fire-breathing right-to-lifer as mine is. This horribly tragedy shows their hypocrisy regarding the sanctity of life and they know it. Shame them.
debbie
@Ruckus:
I thought SSI payout was mandatory at age 70?
Ceci n est pas mon nym
@Humdog: Did you talk to the police or animal control? Someone else here had a serious dog attack, but until the dog actually attacks a human, there seems to be little you can do. Were you definitely not bitten?
I’ve seen dog-repellant sprays in the pet store, I’m not sure how effective (or on the other hand, cruel) they are. I was looking for a product that would make things (furniture, expensive clothes, shoes) taste bad to the pup, not for puppy mace.
Steve in the ATL
@Ceci n est pas mon nym: how much does Soros pay you for each post here? That’s got to at least double your SS!
Yutsano
@Humdog: Oh my gosh! I hope you and the Peanut are okay!
David Evans
@EBT: Coal is sinful? Someone tell Trump.
Ceci n est pas mon nym
@Steve in the ATL: Not sure. They convinced me to take the “payment in Bitcoin” option. Was that a mistake?
Spanky
@debbie: Nope! The SSI payout increases to age 70, but at no time is it mandatory.
There is a Required Minimum Distribution you have to take from your 401/IRA starting at age 70.5. Googling “RMD” will get you that info.
Amir Khalid
@Ceci n est pas mon nym:
Oops.
Barbara
@debbie: https://www.ssa.gov/benefits/retirement/
You need to start withdrawing at the age of 70, but the main point is, there is no financial advantage of waiting any longer. Your maximum monthly will not go up if you delay beyond the age of 70, as it does if you delay until you are 70.
ETA: I suppose you can just not apply so it is not mandatory in the sense that they give you the money whether you ask or not, but there is no advantage to waiting.
A Ghost To Most
@Chip Daniels:
It’s quicker to say you are an atheist – you’ll cut to the car chase immediately.
A Ghost To Most
@Gravenstone:
Just say “American”. It confuses the shit out of them..
Bill
I love stoner cat!
raven
@Martin: We’ll give some land the N********s and the CH****ks but we don’t want the IRISH!
debbie
@Spanky:
@Barbara:
Thanks, I was misremembering again. This is what I get for reading every single SSA publication. I just hope I make it to 70!
Barbara
@sheila in nc: I had a boyfriend who was born in Taiwan, moved to Japan, and then to Chicago and then NC, where he supplemented his income by working at emergency rooms. He had a very specific way of answering these questions: “I’m from Chapel Hill.” Then, “Oh, you mean where did I go to medical school, that’s Chicago.” And then, “Oh, you want to know where I was born. I was born in Taiwan.” His view was, maximize the embarrassment. He hated it too.
Betty Cracker
@Humdog: Holy crap, that’s terrible! It sounds like you and Peanut will be okay, which is the most important thing. But that damned neighbor needs to be told in no uncertain terms to corral his or her critter. I’ve found that animal control and/or law enforcement attention to animal control issues varies wildly by location. Hopefully you’re in an area where they’re proactive.
Mandalay
This is not a crackpot article. It is long and detailed, and comes from Reuters:
https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/johnsonandjohnson-cancer/
debbie
@Betty Cracker:
Humdog should still report it so there’s a record of the attack.
victory
Fantastic article.
raven
So what if you ask “where is your family from”? I spent time in Asia and Australia and I ;like to connect with people on that basis.
raven
@Betty Cracker: I was riding my bike to school when I was a grad student and a dog came off it’s porch and bit me. I was pissed and called animal control and they were useless. I went down to the house and banged on the door. When the frat rat answered I jumped all in his shit. about his dog biting me. He looked at me, broke into tears and said “it not my dog and my best friend just got killed in the Value Jet crash in the Everglades”. Stepped on it again.
JPL
@Humdog: Vent all you want because that situation is awful. Make sure that you get yourself and the dog checked out. Please keep us updated.
Kent
Honestly the most “politically correct” place I have ever lived was Central Texas. Seriously. Political “correctness” was enforced MUCH more there any anyplace else I have ever lived. Guns? Abortion? Catering to evangelical christian “sensitivities”. Hundreds of different racially-tinged issues from school governance to transit.
I find it odd that the silly little things that happen on university campuses get labeled as “political correctness” whereas when very narrow “correct” political mores are rigidly enforced from the top down and permeate all through society we don’t call that “political correctness” at all. We just treat it as somehow normal.
ET
In the jungle, the mighty jungle
The lion sleeps tonight
In the jungle the quiet jungle
The lion sleeps tonight
Spanky
Here’s something a little further down the WaPo front page:
Asshole.
JPL
@raven: I sent a note to a neighbor about their dog approaching Finch’s young dog walker aggressively. They put up a fence and stopped by and apologized for being lax.
Truthfully other neighbors wanted me to call in a favor and have the police periodically patrol. Then I read an article about the police shooting aggressive dogs and thought twice about it.
It’s a jack russell and let’s face they all act more aggressive then they are.
Martin
@raven: Exactly.
Spanky
?Da fuq?
I’m hard-pressed to find a money angle in this, but it’s Priebus, so ….
Gin & Tonic
@raven: I’m with you. I’ve been lots of places, and (introverted though I am) I love to meet people who are different. If they are speaking a language I know well enough, I try to place the accent if I can; if they’re speaking a language I don’t know, I try to figure out what it could be. Shoulda gone into linguistics, I guess.
JPL
@Spanky: McSally was a gracious loser because she knew he planned to resign. It will be interesting to see what type of senator she becomes if selected.
Comrade Colette Collaboratrice
@Chip Daniels:
Do you know one? Or can you link to one, as that’s a thing I’d fear to google? I’m completely serious. I’d love to have something like that in my back pocket.
Spanky
@Comrade Colette Collaboratrice: Sounds completely disgusting and offensive.
So yeah, Chip, post it!
Gravenstone
@trollhattan:
A: A bastard.
Tends to shut that conversation down right fucking now!
raven
@JPL: I love dogs but I don’t care for those little shits
tobie
@Spanky: Maybe Priebus wants to run for office and figures naval duty might help pad his resume. Otherwise he’s just your run-of-the-mill, corrupt GOP operative.
Saw on TPM that Papadopoulos would like to run for Congress in Orange County, CA:
I guess that fits with the reality TV show Papadopoulos and Mangiante are currently engaged in. Grifters gotta grift.
trollhattan
@Comrade Colette Collaboratrice:
Ditto. Utterly unable to present the bestest retort in real time, it’s nice having a go-to response. “The Aristocrats!”
On a completely different topic, counting the incoming call log on my cellphone 11 of the last 12 calls are spam. How much longer is the phone going to be a viable device? Why pay to be annoyed? I can be annoyed for free already.
TaMara (HFG)
@Amir Khalid: Zander and Gabe, about two weeks in, became midnight buds. They couldn’t wait until I turned out the lights and then they used my house as their drag race track. Everyone, with a few exceptional moments, seems to have adjusted. fingers-crossed.
@Humdog: I am so sorry! I hope you are both okay. Report it and insist they talk to the owner, even if they don’t do anything else. Then it’s on record.
Gelfling 545
@Barbara: There can be some disadvantage to waiting as well. As was explained to me at the teachers’ retirement seminar I attended it takes several years of collecting the higher amount to come to the same amount you’d get from taking it earlier and if your state of health is iffy, best to take it sooner. The agent at the Social Security office said what he’d do is take it earlier and bank it if he didn’t need it yet. As both my brothers didn’t live long enough to collect any I felt that taking the lower amount longer was the better option.
Brachiator
From the Peter Kruger piece.
Yes, it is. It is always about power.
No, they are being racist. And it is accelerating today. It’s part of the shit pedaled by Tucker Carlson, that nonwhite people don’t belong and cannot be assimilated into this country. The racist default position is that an American is white and speaks English. Knows good American words like hamburger, pizza, banjo, okra, Cajun, rodeo.
Mary G
OOOOOOOOOOhhh:
Spanky
@Gelfling 545: Yep. You’re betting against the actuarial tables if you hold off collecting SS. An extra 8%/year will only pay off if you live longer than the average for your cohort. Those with ominous family histories and/or serious medical conditions of their own need to think long and hard about delaying.
Starfish
@raven: If the person grew up in the US, they are not necessarily going to be familiar with the culture of Australia or Asia. Also, if you were there for a few weeks as a tourist in a major city, that is going to look a lot different than the life of a person who lived there. That is because a lot of people who live in a place do not bother to do a lot of the tourist-y things around them.
Like “Oh, you are Chinese, I love the Chinese restaurant down the street” is not necessarily a great way to connect with people especially if the Chinese restaurant down the street is bad.
Did you see this video about the topic that we are discussing?
raven
@Starfish: 13 monts in Korea ands a year in Vietnam wasn’t no “tour”. Even thigh they called it that.Your point is taken.
Keith P.
@Spanky: He’ll look like one of those kidnapped kids from “Happy!”
Barbara
@Gelfling 545: If my father had not begun taking SS early he would have had no retirement at all. I agree that your health and sense of well-being should play a role in how you evaluate what’s best for you, as well as what kind of retirement you want to have.
Gin & Tonic
@Starfish: Did you know that it’s possible to be genuinely interested in cultures and upbringings other than your own without being an Ugly American asshole? True story.
Barbara
@Starfish: There is also a widespread assumption that people with Asian heritage or names (in particular) are “not from here” even when they are. Bari Weis, that awful right wing non-entity the NYT hired as an appendage to Bret Stephens tweeted “Immigrants get the job done” after Mirai Nagasu landed a triple axel jump in the Olympics, only to be told by thousands that Mirai Nagasu was born in California. She is as American as I am. Weis whined (what else) that she didn’t mean it as a put down, which is a total non-sequitur and avoids owning the presumption implicit in her tweet that Asians aren’t actually American.
catclub
@trollhattan: The key question is often: “Who are/were your parents?”
and I remember it being crucial in the Joe Leapheart Navajo novels by Tony Hillerman, as well as to the DAR ladies in your small town.
Multicultural suspicion of un-categorized strangers.
sheila in nc
@Gin & Tonic: Honestly, that’s what I tried to tell my husband at first — people are just interested. But that’s not really the whole picture. My husband still feels it as a sting because it’s only being asked of him because he looks different. And he’s NOT from Japan, so it’s not like he can tell anybody anything about how life is lived there. I’ve gradually been able to see it from his POV and I feel so bad for him.
catclub
@Gelfling 545:
I agree with this. The financial writers will generally tell you to delay – because each year of delay ups the payout by 8%. Which is true as far as it goes.
But they should also mention that both early and late claiming are designed to be actuarially identical, and if you suspect you will not live
past the cohort average age, early claiming works better. I think they should also mention that you also have to work another year and PAY IN, for another year in that case, too, also.
Starfish
@Gin & Tonic: All I am saying is that type of conversation is not the first conversation you should be having with people.
When these questions are the first questions that people ask, they are telling you that their curiosity is more important than your ability to have a sense of belonging in the country that you were born in.
If you didn’t get a chance to watch the video that I posted above, watch it sometimes. It gives you an idea of how ridiculous some of these interactions are.
FelonyGovt
@Spanky: Yep. I don’t have a lot of longevity in my family tree, and I have enough health issues that I’m planning to collect my SS the minute I turn 66 (my full retirement age) next year.
Starfish
@Barbara: Twitter had an absolute field day with that.
Ohio Mom
@Gin & Tonic: In third grade, (special needs) Ohio Son had the loveliest educational assistant, a real grandmotherly type, very warm and maternal. Which was just what he needed that year (in later years, a stronger no-nonsense approach was more helpful to him).
I could never figure out if she was from India or Pakistan — she was obviously an immigrant, she had a strong accent and her English would sometimes hit snags. From her stories, I knew she had grown children and grandchildren who lived nearby.
But I could never think of a polite way to ask “where she was from” so I didn’t.
germy
The AARP magazine and newspaper always makes a point of advising their readers “Don’t retire!”
Which always seemed odd to me because they’re supposed to be an association of…. retired people? It’s like a pipefitters’ organization telling people “Don’t be a pipefitter!”
Every issue of the magazine & newspaper, they’d do their Q&A thing, and they always said “Hold off as long as you can! If you wait until age 72 to retire you’ll get another… 45 dollars a month!!”
Finally one day I saw in their letters column, someone wrote in to say something like “If person A collects at age 67 and dies when he’s 72, he’ll collect more than person B who waits until age 72 to collect, and then dies at 73.”
There was no reply to that particular letter.
VincentN
@raven:
I used to think “where is your family from?” was a better alternative than “where are you really from?” because while I was born here my family did, in fact, immigrate here years ago from Vietnam. But then I realized there’s also this weird implicit assumption of otherness in the question.
Now I think the best way to start a conversation about cultural differences and ancestry is simply to include yourself in the opening dialogue. Just start talking about how your family originally came from Ireland or whatever then ask the other person about their family roots. Personally, this feels less like an interrogation and more like bonding over family history. It feels more organic and less out of the blue.
Gin & Tonic
@Starfish: I’ve seen that video, and I know what offensive is. I also know what it’s like to be made fun of for “talking funny.” Yet, if I’ve spent some time socially chatting with someone I met at a business function and am having a hard time distinguishing their accent, I’ll ask. You can’t broaden your knowledge if you never inquire. But if they sound like they were born in California, there’s probably no reason even to ask.
The Moar You Know
@Ruckus: Ten years from now:
“hey, you remember Ruckus?”
“Hell, yeah, that guy was loaded. Cat food every night and…get this…a fuckin’ hovel!”
“Must be nice.”
“Yeah, but at least I got my shower rod. Just gotta find some sparrows and it’s fat city for the next week.”
“I got some rats.”
“Cool”
raven
@VincentN: How about I lived in Can Tho?
debbie
@Gelfling 545:
My situation is somewhat similar to yours, but the longer I hang on, the longer I get to keep health care through my employer. My savings are small enough I won’t be able to get insurance after I retire/am retired.
Ohio Mom
@catclub: This discussion of Social Security payment amounts is interesting to me. I hate to say it, but Ohio Dad probably fits in the better-off-starting-to-collect-earlier cohort.
However, since Ohio Son’s lifetime SSI payments will rise to Dad’s retirement level, I guess Ohio Dad has (counts on fingers) eight more years to go. Assuming the half-assed managed outfit he works for stays in business that long (now crossing fingers).
raven
@FelonyGovt: That “full retirement” but you get more if you wait 4 years is bullshit.
Chip Daniels
@Comrade Colette Collaboratrice:
No, that’s the hilarity- simply by invoking the Virgin Mary, a donkey and abortion, the listener fills in the blanks with their own imagination.
The iconoclast shrugs it off but the truly fragile snowflake will be triggered.
germy
When I lived in a severely WASPish area a few decades ago I used to get asked “What does your name mean?”
I used to reply with an old Jonathan Winters joke: “It means the cattle are dying“
spudgun
I love all your critters, but there’s just something about Gabe…I just love his little face! So adorable.
*sigh* I think it’s finally time to get another cat (RIP Trixie 5/24/17)
Spanky
@spudgun: You’d be better off with two. They’d be better off with two.
Better yet, three.
Jeffro
I dunno…the term “microaggression” just strikes me as a little off-putting. Why not just call them “insults” or “insulting acts”? “Microagression” just kind of works against itself. I’m completely down with the concept, just not the wording.
ruemara
@Ohio Mom: Here’s how, “My kid loves your stories. Are there stories your mother or grandmother used to tell you?” And listen to stories about her. Inevitably, you’ll put that together. I just let people talk about themselves.
@Jeffro: Are you black or another POC? If you are, how do you describe things that aren’t exactly insults but are affecting you? If you aren’t, why do you find it off-putting and why are you suggesting something else for the people who have already defined it to their satisfaction as it impacts them?
Yutsano
@spudgun: I’m a little surprised a fur kid hasn’t tried to adopt you already.
rikyrah
@Humdog:
So mad about you and Peanut?
Hope that both of you are doing better.
Mrs. D. Ranged in AZ
I enjoyed reading his essay. Particularly the example of the New Englanders. I love this site and my fellow Jackals. I do, however, have to say that I stumble across a bit of snobbery on occasion. I never comment on it because I know, in general, that Jackals are very giving and loving. I know they aren’t meaning to hurt anyone’s feelings and probably don’t recognize their privilege (as we are all wont to do on occasion). I particularly noticed it in the comments for one of John’s posts a week or so ago when he was complaining about being financially challenged or something. I said nothing at the time–batted an eye or two.
I just wanted to remind you all that even the most enlightened folks can stumble in regards to privilege once in a while. I might get flack about saying this but I hope you all will take my feedback with good grace. And I’ll be honest and say that I might have my own insecurities and resentments through which I filter some of what you say. However, I would ask that you please think about what you’re complaining about sometimes. There are real problems then there are “problems of abundance”. Next time you or the Front Pagers want to bitch about something, think about which kind yours is. And then think about how your complaint about a problem of abundance compares to real problems and how those of us with real problems feel when we hear them. I’m just as guilty on this issue as anyone else. So this is a reminder to me as well. I have problems of abundance that I need to quite bitching about too. Regardless, it’s a form of willful ignorance at worst and ingratitude for life’s blessings at best.
Ohio Mom
@Jeffro: I think you have a point. “Microagression” sounds like something a high-falutin’, pointy-headed, elitist college perfessor came up with to lord over us everyday folks, “insults” sounds like stuff Thelma from church who always puts her foot in her mouth comes up with.
You gotta consider your audience, especially when you are trying to persuade someone. Most people understand the concept of “insult,” and already agree it’s a wrong thing to do. They just need some help in expanding their understanding of what constitutes an insult.
germy
@Mrs. D. Ranged in AZ: Excellent points.
rikyrah
@Mandalay:
Demons ??
The Moar You Know
@sheila in nc: If the person is expendable – and most people who ask this shit question are – I have found the best answer is “my mother’s vagina”. If they’re really annoying, I’ll use a nastier term. That has the added advantage of stunning them into silence, or even better, them walking away.
boatboy_srq
@TenguPhule:
What the BLEEP is Congress supposed to do that would satisfy this requirement? Repeal the entire Great Society and New Deal? Reinstitutionalize slavery? “Disincentivize” my pale arse.
LauraH
@Barbara: We have three daughters who were adopted from China, and we all learned very quickly how to deal with “those” questions. We found the best answer to any personal or intrusive question was to nicely ask “why do you want to know?’ It gave the responsibility immediately back to the questioner to explain why it was any of their business to ask where our kids were from or all of the other personal things strangers felt it was their right to know. My favorite answer to give was to questions asking who their father was (because many assumed my husband much be Asian): “I don’t know. I never met him.” That shut things down quickly.
germy
On the subject of privilege, Paul Campos has an essay up
http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2018/12/first-black-president
about how a white president feels comfortable behaving.
Barbara
@ruemara: Or, for instance, if she had brought in a treat for some kind of celebration you can ask about the recipe and whether it is traditional to her family. But sometimes people avoid telling you where they are from for their own reasons, and that should be respected.
A Ghost To Most
@raven:
As someone who was mauled by a friend’s St. Bernard, fair warning: if your dog attacks me, I am very likely to attack it back, with prejudice.
Roger Moore
@Starfish:
This is a good way to say it. And it’s not just saying that their curiosity is more important than your sense of belonging. Jumping right into ancestry as one of the first things they want to know is a sign that they care more about lumping people into groups than about getting to know them as individuals, which is a big flashing warning sign that the person doing it is a bigot.
The Moar You Know
@Mrs. D. Ranged in AZ: I hear you. People need to get a grip, sort their priorities, and figure out what an actual “problem” is. It’s not losing your house in a flood, that’s for certain. You just buy another one.
I’ll give you a REAL problem: the Coach backpack that my staff loads up with my weekly earnings has stretched, and no longer fits in my Learjet properly. Additionally, the complaints by my servants as to its weight gives me headaches.
germy
@ruemara: The term “micro-aggression” captures the sneakiness of the act.
An insult is usually out in the open; something even meant to start a fight.
A micro-aggression is when the person wants to hide behind the “I didn’t mean anything by it, you’re certainly being overly sensitive!”
I noticed little things, like a farm stand where the old white lady gave plant holder trays to everyone in line buying potted plants, but simply rang up my wife and myself, took our money and then watched with a tight little smile while we picked up all the pots and stacked them in our arms.
My wife actually didn’t notice the aggression (she’s a happier person than I and has a talent for ignoring slights) but when I pointed out to her the other shoppers were given trays and we weren’t, she agreed we wouldn’t be spending any more money there.
ruemara
@Barbara: Yep. You can guess from details they’re willing to share, but it takes patience and you should respect their privacy if they simply don’t want to.
@germy: I have to deal with a director who cannot look me in the eye. I once made him shift spaces 3x in his disinclination to stand within 5 feet of me. I watch him ask people to do my job: take photos of him with new gear or in events. Inevitably, they come get me because I’m the photographer. It’s an insult but it’s so slight, so strange, that if you bring it up to your white co-workers & supervisors, you look either crazy or paranoid. Which is why when non-black folks have a problem with the term, I know they simply don’t understand how slight things can be, yet how they build up enough to make for a toxic living environment. Which is why your opinions may be valid, but it’s often good to just listen & learn instead. This wasn’t presented for critique, just for education.
Barbara
@The Moar You Know: I think a better response, but to the point, would be something like, “does it matter?” I think this is especially true when it occurs in a professional setting, where you cannot necessarily respond in such a rude way, even if you really want to.
boatboy_srq
@Jeffro: “Privilege” is an old but accurate descriptor of this particular situation. That would work as well.
Interesting side note: over at JMG in one of the recent discussions, one of the commenters brought up a 30′ bronze sculpture in St. Pancras station as a symptom of heterosexual privilege. It’s a depiction of a couple saying goodbye at the train station – which is a fairly normal event, especially in that sort of place. He’s in business attire, and she’s in some comparatively-revealing (yet still “modest”) blouse and skirt. It’s the kind of thing that unless you’re in the affected subcommunity wouldn’t make you think twice – and yet, from a certain angle, it celebrates heterosexuality and thereby denies the existence of any other sexual identity. It’s the overarching assumption driving the potential to place this “artwork” that is the offensive part, and the piece itself that constitutes the expression of privilege/microaggression/whatever – and yet it is the piece that is most visible simply because the assumption of a heterosexual world is all around us every moment.
Immanentize
@The Moar You Know: Yes, but what if you were like MacDuff who was from his “mother’s womb untimely ripp’ed?”
I love MacBeth
Mrs. D. Ranged in AZ
@The Moar You Know: Ba dum tssss!
The Moar You Know
@boatboy_srq: GOP platform 1980. You’re getting warm!
GOP platform 2020. You could run!
(I’m pretty serious. Watch what is going on with prison labor in this country.)
Bobby Thomson
If you replace “political correctness” with “refusing to be bullied,” it’s generally more accurate.
The Moar You Know
@Mrs. D. Ranged in AZ: My second instrument is drums!
Bobby Thomson
@germy: yeah, that really doesn’t work and Campos didn’t think it through. Par for the course.
Bobby Thomson
@Ohio Mom: depending on the audience, “dick move” gets the point across.
Ohio Mom
@boatboy_srq: That is every minority’s fate. I am Jewish. Is it a microagression when I am expected to work and send my kid to school on my holiest days, is it a microagression this time of year when a holiday that isn’t mine is constantly shoved in my face as soon as I leave my house?
I don’t think so. It’s just that as a minority, I live in a culture that isn’t completely mine and never will be.
Mrs. D. Ranged in AZ
@The Moar You Know: You don’t say! They tried to teach me piano when I was 4, it didn’t take for some reason.
The Moar You Know
@Immanentize: I have flirted with the idea of dishing out “I was found semiconcious in a toilet at a Bible camp and almost died because they wouldn’t take me to a hospital” but haven’t quite gotten up the courage for that one yet.
Mnemosyne
@sheila in nc:
I’m a middle-aged white woman who’s interested in how people immigrated to the US, but I’ve learned to ask that question as, “Can I ask where your family is from originally? My mom’s side has been here since colonial times, but my grandfather on my dad’s side came over on the boat from Italy when he was a kid.”
By presenting my family history first, I’m hoping to make it clear that my goal is to start a friendly conversation, not interrogate someone about where they’re “really” from.
germy
Ruckus
@trollhattan:
I used to ask that question, but did so because I like the diversity and enjoy hearing about their lives. For decades I used to try to figure out where they were from by their accent. Pretty good at telling where. It was a fun way to start a conversation.
I don’t ask anymore.
Uncle Cosmo
@Gelfling 545: Excellent point. I started looking into the math when I was laid off at age 62-1/4 & computed that the break-even points for taking SocSec at an age different from the standard age (66 for me) were roughly in the early 80s – taking it early would start to reduce the lifetime payout while delaying would gain. Always assuming I should live so long. Mortality is the joker in the deck. I figured that if I lasted that long I could take the hit in lifetime payouts. But I’m a lifelong bachelor with substantial savings. Anyone with spouse or dependents would have to figure in survivor benefits as well…
The Moar You Know
@Mrs. D. Ranged in AZ: Both my parents play. I think that’s the #1 determining factor. Parents who play. Both my brother and I have played professionally (he in the classical world, me in musical theater and TV) and are both pretty damn good multi-instrumentalists.
I think 4 is too early for formal lessons unless the teacher is someone who REALLY understands that a kid that age can’t and shouldn’t be pushed into anything. Just let ’em bang on the instrument. I did that for years as a little kid. Then my mom asked if we wanted to take violin lessons when I was 8 and we both said “yes”. She was totally fine if the answer was “no”. I think the kids really need to buy into it. I’ve known far too many people who did the piano lessons and recitals and would “puke every time I’d have a recital and my mom would tell me to get out there and not embarrass her” and guess what? They can’t play a damn note as adults. And no wonder.
Brachiator
@FelonyGovt:
Have you gone to the Social Security site (or received a mailing) to see how much you would get if you elected to receive SS payments early?
boatboy_srq
@Ohio Mom:
Actually, isn’t that the point of Kruger’s argument – that those things that devalue you and your culture are the product, not of prejudice and deliberate suppression, but privilege and the sublimation of The Other simply because that Other is not in the majority and doesn’t have an equal place at the table?
Look at his cyclist example. This goes beyond ethnicity or gender orientation or religious practice.
NONE of us in a culture like the US have complete ownership of the culture. Which is precisely the point here. There is, however, the presumption from certain privileged segments of society that said “ownership” is not merely possible but desirable. That presumption is what leads people to wish you a Merry Christmas, or to ask me what my wife does for a living, or that suggest to anyone not obviously Xtian and Caucasian that they should renew their H1B soon or that (presumably matching) Ethnic Cuisine X is tasty. We don’t have to own the culture to suggest to our neighbors that diminishing us isn’t polite, or appropriate, or acceptable.
Jeffro
@boatboy_srq: That’s intriguing. A statue of a man & woman embracing is “celebrating” heterosexuality. Is it possible that it’s celebrating love, reunions, family, anything like that? And it “denies the existence of any other sexual identity”? Um, ok. Trying to see that and not really getting there…
I’ll have to mull this over a bit. I can’t imagine looking at the statue you’re describing and feeling like it somehow validated me as a heterosexual, or made me feel superior to anyone else. (I can imagine looking at it – as with most statues, or art in general – and wishing I had any kind of artistic ability whatsoever. :)
Will study on this a bit – thanks
Ruckus
@germy:
Also works, “It means the bank cashes my check.”
My name is rather simple but I used occasionally, “My family used to be owned by royalty and we stole the name.”
Aleta
@Humdog: What a terrible experience. So sorry. Pls write more, and often, if it helps w/ the after effects, or w/ anything.
I was really shaken up after an unexpected dog attack, beyond the physical. If you need any help for your dog to see a vet or get antibitics, please say.
Jeffro
@Mnemosyne: That’s a great approach – very thoughtful.
zhena gogolia
@germy:
that is brilliant
jl
The front poster who is working on the Rudes Report, or Rudes Update better get cracking. Rudes is pumping out material faster than can be documented.
News says that this morning he formally adopted Trump’s ‘shame what those dirty feds did to Al Capone on tax evasion’ line, and now is lost in an ever expanding maze of backtracks he’s forced to emit.
debit
@The Moar You Know: My dad taught me the keyboard when I was five, and started formal lessons when I was seven. I was really shy and sensitive (a hard look would crush me and make me cry for hours) and the very stern and gruff teacher was a terrible fit. I suspect there was also some early onset Alzheimers going on, as she would have fits of anger when she asked me to do something we’d never covered. I lasted four months and then begged my dad to stop taking me. It really ruined music for me for years. Now I wish he’d tried a different teacher.
Aleta
@Aleta: couldn’t edit — “antibiotics” — though antibitics works ok …
Barbara
@Jeffro: @boatboy_srq: The problem with this way of thinking is that a statue of anyone of any identity leaves out others with other identities. There has to be a way of defining inclusivity without making it impossible to celebrate anyone at all without being seen as dismissing or denigrating others.
trollhattan
@germy:
It’s a great post. Guaranteed to spice up Christmas dinner. :-)
Mnemosyne
@Jeffro:
I just realized that I didn’t make it clear that this is not a conversation opener. This is something I might ask after I’ve been chatting with the person for a while or have known them as a casual acquaintance for a few weeks or even months. It works best as a way to get to know someone better, not to start a conversation.
But IMO starting with “Do you mind if I ask … “ usually works out better because it gives the person a chance to say, “Sorry, I don’t answer personal questions” or otherwise politely refuse to answer.
And if the person says something like, “Texas,” I’ll say, “Oh, what part of Texas? One of my friends used to live in Houston,” and the conversation will be about Texas.
trollhattan
@Aleta:
If a bit is 1/8 dollar is an antibit a debt in that amount?
catclub
@The Moar You Know: another answer to “where were you born?”
“in a state of innocence”
boatboy_srq
@Jeffro: @Barbara: The point was both the subtlety of it and the presumed universality of it. I too am not sure I am convinced, but the fact that the point was made – and dovetails so neatly with this discussion – was worth bringing it up. I suppose the flipside would be this (delightful) Best Buy Christmas Shopping advert this year – an advertisement well-crafted but sufficiently outside the privileged conventions that many eyes get batted at it despite the tasteful and respectful approach. Watch the ad: do you blink when she mentions her wife? I confess that I did, simply because SSM is new enough that I for one did not expect an advertiser to recognize it in any positive fashion.
Martin
@tobie:
We will eat him alive. Bring it on.
Mnemosyne
@raven:
Actually, that’s your in. “I spent about a year in Vietnam, so I’m curious — is that where your family is from originally?” That makes it clear to the other person that you’re asking to be friendly and not trying to be an asshole.
Ceci n est pas mon nym
@germy: I have a pension from a previous job that I qualified for putting in 10 years under their relatively decent [engineers’] union agreement. I opted to take it at the minimum age of 55. It’s peanuts due to taking it early, but those peanuts make a significant difference, month after month. And it’s a lifetime supply of peanuts, with survivor benefits.
I don’t understand people who jump through hoops to make another $8 a month, or worse cut their spouse out of the benefits for a couple more bucks. We know someone like that, who has no prospect of income if her husband pre-deceases her. It’s a hell of a thing to look at someone over the breakfast table every day and know they made that decision on your behalf.
Barbara
@Ceci n est pas mon nym: My dad cut my mother out of his small pension. It angered me because he already had health issues when he had to make the election, but at least they do force the spouse to acknowledge the election to forego survivor benefits.
Chetan Murthy
@Mnemosyne: I don’t often ask this sort of question, but if I do, I always start with “I’m an immigrant, born in India” before I note that it seems like they might have been born elsewhere (from their accent) and I was wondering if that were the case. I think for a native-born person to ask the question in any way other than very gingerly, is pretty fraught. You can never tell where the recipient of the question is. Esp. b/c of the time in which we’re all living.
And I’ve seen it happen (in Texas Goddamn): literally sitting next to someone in their hospital bed, as their nurse introduced herself, and asked where my relative was from. My relative answered “here”, and the nurse proceeded to continue with the questioning “we’re all Americans, but where are you -from-?” I kept my mouth zipped, b/c “don’t open your mouth unless you know the shot” and I wasn’t the one about to go under the knife.
Afterwards my relative told me that she didn’t say “India” b/c she felt that the nurse had her life in her hands, and she was just too scared. All this, with an Indian-American doctor and black and Filipina nurses (the Filipina nurse had chirpily talked about going “home” to the Phillippines for vacation).
Yeah: microaggressions. Ugh.
The Moar You Know
@debit: Your story is universal, if that helps. And awful. Another teacher might have helped. Or made things worse. Finding good music teachers is very hard, I’ve met a lot of them over the years and there are very few I’d consider sending a hypothetical child of mine to.
I got lucky in that my violin teacher was a relentless, demanding perfectionist (big city symphony player) which sounds awful but was exactly what I needed because I too was a pretty shy/sensitive kid, like you, and I would have been eaten alive by my competition in junior high and high school. Instead, because of how she’d drilled me on basics, I became an arrogant motherfucker who took no shit from anyone, one who knew my material stone cold and could play it in the dark without charts. Even my public school music teachers didn’t cross me, because they couldn’t. I knew more than they did.
This led to other issues down the line (I was and still am “difficult” to work with).
The big difference between your experience and mine is that my teacher was not mean. Always said “you can do better”, but never mean about it. I think that’s key.
VincentN
@raven:
Sure, if you laid the groundwork for it. If you start talking about your family history then I’m likely to start talking about mine. Once I mention my parents are from Vietnam you can mention having lived in Can Tho and ask if I’ve ever been there.
This doesn’t have to be hard. After the small talk about the weather, the venue, our jobs, sports, etc you could lead in with
“My grandparents came over from England after World War I. How about yours?”
“My parents came over from Vietnam in the 80s.”
“That’s interesting! I used to live in Can Tho. Have you ever been there?”
“I haven’t actually. What was it like?”
Chetan Murthy
@Mnemosyne:
Just saw this (reading backwards). To me, this is the way to do it. Always start with one’s own story.
The Moar You Know
@debit: Also, never got to say this to you directly – thank you for taking care of Walter. I’d lost my black lab right around then and what happened to Walter just broke my heart to pieces. You did a glorious thing with him, and if there is a heaven (there better be) you get massive doggie points for taking care of him in his last months.
You get my thanks now.
debit
@The Moar You Know:
Your teacher gave you the gift of confidence, which is priceless, IMO. Even if you might be difficult. :)
VincentN
@Mnemosyne:
With the obvious caveat that you better be sudden that the other person is Vietnamese or it’s going to be embarrassing for both parties. XD
gene108
@raven:
Where your family’s from can apply to anyone. Raven, where’s your family from? Does not focus on you at all being different.
You can ask to a white guy and he’ll respond Illinois.
But asking where you are from singles you out, especially when your reply is some local town in the area. Asking where you are from is not something usually asked about non-whites and most African Americans.
It usually singles out Asians, non-white Latinos and Middle Easterners,
pluky
@Mandalay: Aha! I could never figure out why talc would cause cervical cancer. But if routinely contaminated with asbestos things become clearer.
May they all burn in hell.
debit
@The Moar You Know: Thank you and I’m so sorry about your dog. My dad, who is pretty reserved and gruff still cries when he talks about Walter, as do I. There are some losses that just continue to hurt. I hope he’s waiting for me, because I didn’t get nearly enough time with him.
Roger Moore
@germy:
I am so fucking tired of “racially-charged” as a mealy mouthed euphemism for people too afraid to describe behavior as racist.
Mnemosyne
@Chetan Murthy:
It took me a while to figure it out but, yeah, talking about my own family first helps make it clear to the other person where I’m trying to go with that question so they don’t have to try and figure out if I’m an asshole or not.
And, as I said, if someone says, “California,” I go down that road and ask if they’re from Los Angeles or if they grew up in a different part of the state.
schrodingers_cat
@Mnemosyne: I think where are you really from questions are too nosy for the first meeting. I have had people assume that I was born in the United States and are surprised to find out that I have spent my formative years in India. In India people not only ask you where you are from, they want to know where your parents are from and what they do (did) for a living. They are trying to figure out what region you are from, what caste, class and so on. So when I hear second gen immigrants complaining about nosy questions, I think to myself you wouldn’t last a week in India and would be a mass of sputtering outrage in no time.
Ohio Mom
@Jeffro: The main thing wrong with the train station statue (it was a train station, wasn’t it?) as it is described here is that it is totally sexist: formally dressed male commuting to work, femininely dressed female staying behind (and also financially dependent on the breadwinning male). Talk about traditional gender roles!
Or maybe the problem is that it presenting only a small slice of family life, the upper-middle class white-collar salary man and his stay-at-home wife? It is a minority of families that fit that profile. But maybe, because it is a minority lifestyle…it’s okay?
Now I’m getting goofy.
schrodingers_cat
I have been asked obnoxious personal questions by other immigrants too, not just white people and no one can hold a candle to nosy people in India trying to ascertain your caste. I don’t feel under any obligation to give them a straight answer. I will turn around and ask, why are you asking me this question? Will you stop talking to me if I am or my parents are from xyz and do abc for a living. If yes, then stop talking to me right now.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@Gravenstone:
Even better answer to tell it as it is white boi “your’ momma’s house”, no reason to be polite.
Chetan Murthy
@schrodingers_cat:
Well, once upon a time, we were taught in school, that not having this sort of thing determine your life-course, was one of the things that set America apart. It’s almost a bit of civic religion in America. [Yes, like most religions, lots of falsehood there, but still ….]
I mean, it’s like black Americans being told to “go back to Africa” when almost Every. Single. One. Of. Them. has roots in America far deeper than most white people (b/c slavery). It boggles the mind.
Mnemosyne
@VincentN:
Well, maybe. If they say, “No, my grandparents immigrated from Laos,” raven could respond, “Wow, that’s cool — I’ve never been there, but I always wanted to go. I’ve heard it’s beautiful” and guide the conversation down that path.
Basically, I think it’s fairly easy for a white person who actually means well to make it clear that they mean well, and ironically the way to do that is by including their own family history/travel history/etc when they first ask the question. And not, like, “I love Chinese food, are you from China?” ?
The other extremely fraught question I have asked was when I wanted to ask a Black woman a question about her hair. Again, though, I tried to be very careful to give her an out, like, “I’m sorry, I know this question is a little rude, but I have a biracial niece who wants to do something new with her hair. Are those locs, or is there a different name for that style? I think a similar style would look good on my niece.” Again, trying to both give her an out from answering and explaining why I’m asking when I first ask the question. That usually works out fairly well.
Ohio Mom
@schrodingers_cat: Jewish immigrants of my grandparents’ generation, and to some extent, their children (my parents’ generation) would ask similar questions to find out what part of Europe and the Jewish migration to America a new acquaintance hailed from.
Lots of tension between the German Jews who arrived and were settled/established long before the turn of the century and the Eastern European riff-raff who arrived at and after the end of the 1800s.
Chetan Murthy
@Starfish:
And then there’s the “one better”: White guy in my gym asks a guy who looks East Asian[1] if he knows Mandarin, yadda yadda yadda. The East Asian guy notes that he’s not Chinese. White guy keeps right on going. Feh.
[1] I guessed that he wasn’t Chinese, b/c his last name is Cho, and IIUC that’s a Korean name. But I’ve never discussed it — only ever discussed “can we share this swim lane” — so no idear.
Spinoza Is My Co-Pilot
@The Moar You Know: That old routine by the venerable Davis X Machina is about the bestest, true-est blog comment of all time, you know? Enjoyed your remix, hope Ruckus did, too.
Mnemosyne
@schrodingers_cat:
They’re almost always too nosy for the first meeting, but occasionally they’ve come up because the other person asked me a question first, like when a guy who turned out to be a Chinese-Swedish film student asked me, “Why are there so many people in this grocery store line on a Wednesday night?” and I had to explain that it was the day before Thanksgiving. And then I had to explain what Thanksgiving was, because it turned out that he was from Sweden and had never heard of it. ?
schrodingers_cat
New Agey peeps can say really dumb things, you must be spiritual, I am a devotee of such and such a babaji. Namaste’, the person says with solemn seriousness and here I am trying very hard not to giggle.
Ohio Mom
@boatboy_srq: Eh. There are lots of days I say, Have your majority culture, I rather enjoy being different.
Now I say that full well knowing I have plenty enough other privilege to skate by on: I’m white and middle-class, and those things go a long, long way. I don’t expect everyone from other groups to be able to afford this attitude.
FelonyGovt
@Brachiator: Yes, it’s a little less. I’m comfortable waiting one more year, but no more than that.
Ruckus
@raven:
You don’t end up with more but your monthly amount is higher. Especially if you keep working, as you add to your account. How fucking ever, this year, that 12 months of additional income DIDN’T get added. Fuckers are stealing my money. I don’t yet know what is going on, as I’m working extra hours and so haven’t been able to get to the SSA to find out what is going on, exactly who is fucking me. I am betting it’s not Democrats.
I already have a curtain rod. Doesn’t matter. My tremor is bad enough I doubt I could get a sparrow on the damn rod in the first place.
Dan B
@Ohio Mom: As a gay man I “get” boatboy’s unease about the heterosexual couple statue. To see a 30 foot celebration of the perfect couple in a location that many people pass twice a day would be disconcerting to me. It’s not easy to explain why I’d feel that way but here’s an attempt.
The male breadwinner harks back to an era in which roles were rigidly defined. There was almost no place for LGBTQ people. Gay men were considered mentally ill and pedophiles. I figured out I was homosexual (gay meant happy) in 1963. It was terrible. I shut down emotionally. Anything that reminds me of that era brings on a sick feeling.
There’s also the thought that a statue of a gay couple would probably not last a week. I’m not aware of any such statue.
I’m a sucker for any movie, however treacle, that has gay guys falling in love. The first time I saw Moonlight I held my breath for most of the movie, afraid I would sob uncontrollably. I’m not certain that any straight people understand the pain if being invisible. Jews and some light skinned Muslims may but it’s a discussion I haven’t been privy to.
Miss Bianca
@Mnemosyne: i tend to hew to the Stephen Maturin principle, taking the view that “question and answer is the lowest form of conversation.” Maybe it’s because I’m such an introvert myself, I hate answering personal questions.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
@Ohio Mom:
Or you could just address the issue directly. “Do you ask everyone where they are REALLY from or just people who aren’t white? Because when you did that, it made me feel like you don’t think I’m REALLY an American. That doesn’t feel good.”
Roger Moore
@Dan B:
This is the side I can see the most easily. If there were plenty of statues of gay couples out there serving as symbols of love and family, then a prominent statue of a straight couple wouldn’t be a big deal. But having the loving couple always be straight sends the message that being gay is abnormal and nothing to celebrate. I can certainly understand having a simmering resentment about the whole thing that was thrown to a full boil by such a prominent, stereotyped image of a straight couple.
Ohio Mom
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony: Yes, same idea. Skip the academic sounding talk (don’t use “othering” either), bring it to a level that is personal and that even a child could understand. Because most people don’t have an overarching social critique that they operate on but they do understand the concept of being nice.
boatboy_srq
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony: I had the converse of that exact situation happen a few years ago. I was casually house-shopping in rural-becoming-exurban NoVA, and found a lovely-looking subdivision still in an early construction phase. The parcel was beautiful, the neighbors were all agricultural or preserve, the plots were a decent size and the house plans were (for NoVA) somewhat practical and relatively reasonably priced. The first salesgeek I encountered very happily informed me that within a few weeks there would be a Walmart within easy drive in both directions on the main road (not exactly a selling point). The second, when she discovered where I was living, pronounced, “Oh, yes; I grew up there, when it was [name given to the original racially-segregated subdivision] – when it was a nice place to live.” I very nearly replied, “Don’t you mean when it was a white place to live?” Needless to day I did not stay nor return.
boatboy_srq
@Dan B: @Roger Moore: I have seen some very LGBT-positive public art. There’s a wonderful sculpture installation in NYC, for example, and there’s the National AIDS Memorial Grove in San Francisco and the NAMES quilt which is a traveling display. But most pieces are fairly modest in scale: only the grove and the quilt compare. The statue at St. Pancras is thirty effing feet tall and out there facing commuters every day.
As I said, I’m still not sure how I feel about it myself, but that someone else was discomfited enough to mention it made it noteworthy in the context of this post. And again, as @Roger Moore mentions, it’s not the celebration of straight couples by itself so much as the absence of comparable celebration of less traditional households – and it’s not this one piece of art so much as the unvoiced assumption that this is the ONLY expression of a family unit that merits such an installation.
And I wouldn’t in this case call it “simmering resentment” so much as “subconscious discomfort”; the former would come from a similar-scale LGBT monument being installed and then defaced, or (as we saw in the ’16 election) the pride flag scrawled on and displayed upside down. I can certainly see where “simmering resentment” would be appropriate term for other groups’ sensations encountering their equivalent lack of privilege.
J R in WV
@boatboy_srq:
Very Interesting! I recently saw a jewelry store ad for lover’s diamonds, and the first couple was a black guy proposing to a white guy. Then there was a female couple, I forget their racial makeup. The last set was a triplet, three people, two of one sex and one of another. Well known large national chain of jewelry stores. I was pretty surprised, first saw it in NYC last month, then saw it here in WV, so the ad is nationally presented.
I’ve seen other SSM type commercials also, so it isn’t uncommon anymore, which is great by me. I think these ads mean we’ve won the culture wars, but I am sometimes struck by optimism, so maybe not.