Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

An almost top 10,000 blog!

Yeah, with this crowd one never knows.

Wow, I can’t imagine what it was like to comment in morse code.

My years-long effort to drive family and friends away has really paid off this year.

Too often we confuse noise with substance. too often we confuse setbacks with defeat.

The worst democrat is better than the best republican.

I’ve spoken to my cat about this, but it doesn’t seem to do any good.

Not so fun when the rabbit gets the gun, is it?

Pessimism assures that nothing of any importance will change.

Sadly, there is no cure for stupid.

Infrastructure week. at last.

So it was an October Surprise A Day, like an Advent calendar but for crime.

Peak wingnut was a lie.

If you are still in the GOP, you are an extremist.

All your base are belong to Tunch.

Presidents are not kings, and Plaintiff is not President.

Our job is not to persuade republicans but to defeat them.

Second rate reporter says what?

You can’t love your country only when you win.

Russian mouthpiece, go fuck yourself.

Authoritarian republicans are opposed to freedom for the rest of us.

Their freedom requires your slavery.

Give the craziest people you know everything they want and hope they don’t ask for more? Great plan.

Speaking of republicans, is there a way for a political party to declare intellectual bankruptcy?

You are here: Home / Climate Change / How about that weather? / Sunday Morning Open Thread: The Groundhog Is A Lie

Sunday Morning Open Thread: The Groundhog Is A Lie

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Me, I prefer to trust the old proverb:

If Candlemas is bright and clear, there’ll be two winters in the year;

If Candlemas has snow and rain, old winter shall not come again.

It was *delightfully* bright & sunny here north of Boston yesterday… but of course we all knew we’d pay for it later.

[Candlemas is the ‘cross-quarter day’ halfway between the Winter Solstice and the Spring Equinox. In the Christian tradition, February 2 is the Feast of the Presentation, and parishioners would bring their household’s candles to be blessed to ensure good fortune. But the cross-quarter day ceremonies all involve fire — candles in February, bonfires for May Day, hearth fires (for bread-baking) on August 1st, and lanterns for Halloween.]

The groundhog’s got a lousy track record anyway, according to actual meteorologists:

… In the past decade, Phil has predicted a longer winter seven times and an early spring three times. He was only right about 40% of the time, according to the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, which says the groundhog shows “no predictive skill.”…

So, what do the experts say the next month or so will actually feel like?

Well, the past week spread record cold across the United States. More than 200 million Americans experienced temperatures below freezing. The polar vortex killed at least 23 people and left others with lasting frostbite injuries.

Next comes the thermal whiplash as the bone-chilling cold is expected to melt away through early next week.

As for the rest of winter, temperatures over the next six weeks look about average — if not below average in most of the country, Jones said, nodding in the direction of a bit more winter.

Reader Interactions

188Comments

  4. 4.

    NotMax

    Rock salt manufacturers sue Punxsutawney Phil, claim “fake forecast,” demand second opinion.

    :)

  8. 8.

    OzarkHillbilly

    We spent Candlemas at Missouri Botanical Garden with my son and his family yesterday. It was the first day of the annual orchid show, so I have another garden post gift for the snow bound.

    Supposed to hit 68 today, 68! Same for tomorrow. it should be 38, or at most 48, I’m not ready for 68.On the bright side, I should be able to dig and set all my fence posts. On the muddy side everything is going to be a muddy fn’ mess.

    Blech

  13. 13.

    Mary G

    I liked the WaPo headline, which was something like “Groundhog says early spring, which would nice if groundhogs could predict the weather, but they can’t.”

  15. 15.

    JPL

    @OzarkHillbilly: That was our temperature yesterday, and it was wonderful sitting in the sunshine visiting with friends.
    I love orchids and can’t wait for your photos

  16. 16.

    SiubhanDuinne

    Another ancient folk tradition, from our friends in Canada:

    The story of Wiarton Willie dates back to 1956. A Wiarton resident named Mac McKenzie wanted to showcase his childhood home to his many friends, so he sent out invitations for a “Groundhog Day” gathering. One of these invitations fell into the hands of a Toronto Star reporter. The reporter travelled to Wiarton looking for the Groundhog Day event. None of the townspeople knew about a festival, but one suggested he check at the Arlington Hotel, the local watering hole. There the reporter found McKenzie and his friends partying and was invited to join them. The next day, the reporter lamented to McKenzie that he needed some kind of story to take back to justify his expenses. So McKenzie grabbed his wife’s fur hat, which had a large button on the front, went out to the parking lot, dug a burrow in the snow and pronounced a prognostication (which no one remembers). The picture of Mac and the hat ran in the February 3, 1956 edition of the Toronto Star. A year later, about 50 people arrived for the festival. Half were reporters from various media, including the CBC and Canadian Press. Seizing on the opportunity, McKenzie invented a festival that has been added to over the years.[3]

    Source

    I’ve been to Wiarton, though never in February. Hadn’t realised until I read the Wikipedia article that the town is on the 45th parallel, midway between the Equator and the North Pole, which supposedly lends Wiarton Willie’s prognostications an added level of mystical authenticity.

  17. 17.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Raven: Yep. I get the frisbee out for the Woofmeister and he is just as excited as ever, but by the 3rd throw he has to walk it back up the hill and after that I make shorter more horizontal throws. For an 11 or 12 yo 100# Lab with CHD he is doing extremely well but it’s hard to watch.

  18. 18.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @SiubhanDuinne:

    The original Wiarton Willie lived to the advanced age of 22, and was found dead only two days before Groundhog Day in 1999. The organizers were unable to find a replacement, and instead marked Groundhog Day by revealing “Willie” in a coffin. He had been dressed in a tuxedo, had coins over his eyes, and a carrot between his paws. The real Willie had in fact decomposed, and the body in the coffin was that of an older, stuffed groundhog. The Associated Press was obliged to issue a retraction on its wires.[5]

    2 much fun being had up there.

  19. 19.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    That was une scandale grande at the time! One of my colleagues at the Canadian Consulate in Atlanta pinned a newspaper photo of the False Dead Willie on his office bulletin board. It was still there, yellowed and curling and brittle, when I retired in 2013.

  20. 20.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @SiubhanDuinne: I think it was pure genius. It ain’t easy coming up with a stuffed groundhog on less than 2 days notice. (not to mention a fitted tuxedo). Joke ’em if they can’t take a fuck.

  22. 22.

    OzarkHillbilly

    The San Francisco district attorney’s office on Friday dropped all charges against three San Francisco sheriff’s deputies accused of forcing inmates to fight for their entertainment.

    The San Francisco district attorney, George Gascón, filed charges against deputies Scott Neu, Eugene Jones, and Clifford Chiba in March 2016, a year after the city’s public defender brought forth allegations of an inmate “fight club”.

    But prosecutors claim they were forced to dismiss the charges this week because the same sheriff’s department that employed the accused mishandled the investigation and destroyed evidence, including by smashing a lead investigator’s laptop with a hammer because it had gotten a virus.

    Surprise, surprise, surprise!

    The dismissal of charges against the deputies once again raised questions over the effectiveness of investigations when law enforcement agencies investigate their own.

    Ya think?

  23. 23.

    Ceci n est pas mon nym

    @Mary G: I grew up in a place where snow on Halloween and Easter were common, and getting a few inches in May not at all unusual.

    The concept of winter ending in February, let alone early Feb, was ludicrous and I could never understand why anyone thought that was either possible or desirable.

    Im still mostly that kid. We haven’t had a real blizzard yet this winter and I won’t feel like I’ve earned Spring till we do. Around here the one big blizzard does tend to be late in the season.

  26. 26.

    evap

    @Sab: How much wood could a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?

    or is it How much ground could a groundhog grind if a groundhog could grind ground?

    You be the judge!

  29. 29.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Sab: Or groundhogs or whistle pigs or GET THE FUCK OUT OF MY GARDEN YOU FAT GLUTINOUS PLAGUE INFESTED DEMON FROM HELL!!!!

  34. 34.

    JMG

    Ms. Laurie is from Massachusetts, so I’m sure she knows that if ALL we get is six more weeks of winter, we can’t complain about the groundhog prediction.

  36. 36.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Sab: Up in the STL area, there is Murray in Alton. I mean “Murray”? Really guys? Where’s your imagination?

  39. 39.

    Immanentize

    The groundhog that lives under my shed either is still hibernating or has moved on. I am really hoping for the latter.

  48. 48.

    Cowboy Diva

    @NotMax: Alton is pronounced differently by the city and the person. You might think it due to regional differences, but really it’s to avoid trademark infringement.

  49. 49.

    OzarkHillbilly

    Remember back when we wondered just what it would take for the news media to call Donald Trump’s statements “lies”? Seems like decades ago, doesn’t it?

    We’ve moved past that—way, way past that—but more recently there’s been a similar question: what does it take to get them to call something racist, as opposed to, say, insensitive or racially charged? Ladies and gentlemen, we have our answer: appearing in blackface in your medical school yearbook. These screen caps are all from Friday night.

    -Kevin Drum

    Of course the commenters go straight for the Donkey in the room that KD ignored in his post.

    Michael Lee nails it:

    That is why it is so bad. Media outlets are willing to call Dems racist but not Repubs, because other Dems don’t argue against it but other Repubs will. That means they don’t care about being objectively accurate; they only care about who complains. So they allow themselves to be actively manipulated for political ends. It also means that the only people or groups you can call racist are proud self-identified racists (who no longer have any power) and people who are against racism. But racism is perpetuated by people saying and doing racist things while saying they aren’t racist. Refusing to call out those actions as racist is pretty darn pro-racist.

  51. 51.

    debbie

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    Lee is right. There is virulent racism and there is benign racism. Too many people try to make excuses for the latter, but it’s the kind of racism that will probably never end.

  58. 58.

    WaterGirl

    @Mary G: Now if only they could or would bring that same skill to headlines about the orange guy freeloading in the white house.

  59. 59.

    WaterGirl

    @OzarkHillbilly: I am tearing up after reading that, and remembering the purina (I think) commercial that shows the tiny young pup who doesn’t know what to do with the big stairs, and then shows the full-sized prime of his life dog bounding up the stairs, and then finally shows the older dog with the graying muzzle moving more slowly.

    Sad to see even with an unknown dog in a commercial, and most surely a heartbreaker when you see it in a beloved dog. Every day matters, as we all know.

  60. 60.

    WereBear

    @OzarkHillbilly: It is my experience that Frozen North places come up with festivities out of sheer necessity.

    There’s the Frozen Dead Guy Festival in Colorado and the Winter Carnival in Saranac Lake NY.

    Sheer cussedness has to be an Arctic trait :)

  63. 63.

    WaterGirl

    @pat: And that bodes very poorly for trees and plants and shrubs that count on freezing in winter and not thawing until spring. The repeated freeze-thaw is what kills, at least in my neck of the woods.

  64. 64.

    WaterGirl

    @OzarkHillbilly: Pretty sure his dad will be, as well. Many of us here will be crying along with you when that day comes, hopefully not for a long while. How could we not love the Woofmeister after all your stories of him?

  67. 67.

    Bess

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    racism is perpetuated by people saying and doing racist things while saying they aren’t racist. Refusing to call out those actions as racist is pretty darn pro-racist.

    At some point do we need to question whether we move too rapidly and sometimes put our own in front of a firing squad when we would be better served by taking a little time to find facts?

    It looks like we may be well down the path of ruining the career of someone who has worked hard for the things we believe in. Because someone, possibly not him, was photographed in blackface.

  72. 72.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @WereBear: I was thinking that exact thing when looking at thes pics of the Up Helly Aa festival . It’s to fight cabin fever In years past I and some friends would take winter floats on the various Ozark streams, spending below zero nights on lonely gravel bars with not enough fire and too much whiskey. It was always great for wildlife viewing especially if there was good snow cover.

    I had probably the most magical morning of my life on one such float when the temps dropped near -20. Everything was covered in hoar frost and this river that never froze was filled wish slushy bergs that turned the water turquoise blue and filled the air with a grinding sound as the bergs flowed past the shore bound ice. I got 2 beautiful pics before my camera froze up. They are gone, lost in divorce, but I still remember.

  76. 76.

    Doug R

    I done heard tell that the Groundhog day legend started in England where if it’s clear in February, they’re having a Polar Vortex and the cold will stick around. If it’s cloudy, they’re having a normal English winter with lots of rain and it should warm up soon.

  77. 77.

    Nicole

    @Bess:

    At some point do we need to question whether we move too rapidly and sometimes put our own in front of a firing squad when we would be better served by taking a little time to find facts?

    It looks like we may be well down the path of ruining the career of someone who has worked hard for the things we believe in. Because someone, possibly not him, was photographed in blackface.

    Except his first response was that it was him. Even if it’s not him in that particular photo, that indicates that he’s aware that at some point, he likely was photographed doing something racist.

    Politicians should be held to a higher standard. As John tweeted earlier, no one is saying he should have his medical license taken away, or suggesting prison time. They’re just saying he is no longer a good choice for the Chief Executive of VA and should resign.

    The fact that his wife had to stop him from demonstrating the moonwalk at the press conference is just… oh my God.

    The GOP is clearly not going to hold its members to a higher standard, but that doesn’t mean the Democrats shouldn’t either. We should and we must.

  83. 83.

    Bess

    @WaterGirl: I see a very large difference between dressing up in blackface and posing with someone in a KKK robe and dressing up as Michael Jackson in makeup.

    But let’s step back a moment.

    1) Picture appears.
    2) Rope is pitched over tree limb.
    3) As stool is being kicked out from under accused it appears that he might not be one of the people in the picture.

    We need to think about how that’s how we want things to work. Just shoot them all and let dog sort it out? Shouldn’t we be better than that?
    —–

    Now, there’s another discussion we need to have. Can a person change and, if they change, should that change be considered when viewing behavior far in their past?

    President Obama was against gay marriage at one point in time. Should we damn him for that given that his opinion changed and he came to support gay marriage?

  85. 85.

    rikyrah

    @Bess:
    It wasn’t just Blackface.
    It was Blackface AND the KLAN on his yearbook page.
    Even if you try and argue
    “Youthful indiscretion” with me about Blackface…

    There’s no phucking way you can “youthful indiscretion” me about THE KLAN.

    Exactly, WHO do you think pulled him over the hump during his election by voting at Presidential election levels?

    The community for which Blackface AND the KLAN are not mere symbols.

  88. 88.

    Bess

    @Nicole:

    Except his first response was that it was him. Even if it’s not him in that particular photo, that indicates that he’s aware that at some point, he likely was photographed doing something racist.

    His first response was to apologize, which is what a wise politician would do. He didn’t remember it happening and checked with others before he later said that he wasn’t in the photograph.

  89. 89.

    rikyrah

    @Bess:
    I wish that you would go and watch the opening segment of Rev. Al’s show yesterday. On it, he had a member of the Virginia Black Caucus, as well as a Black political operative who had worked on his campaign. You could tell that she was devastated.

    When Black people these days say..

    “We are not our ancestors”

    It’s not meant as disrespect. It’s an acknowledgement of the pain that they went through.

    This is 2019…there are some things, as a community, that we don’t have to take,to ‘understand”…
    Someone that we actually helped put in office in Blackface is one of them.

    ‘Nuance’ and ‘Complexity’ have been excuses for ‘this is the reason why you, Black community, have to take this insult and turn the other cheek and swallow the insult.’

    Not ?this? time ?

  90. 90.

    Bess

    @rikyrah:

    It wasn’t just Blackface.
    It was Blackface AND the KLAN on his yearbook page.

    Northam has stated that he is neither of the people in that photograph.

    Others have said that in the yearbook some pictures are mixed up and pictures are on their pages which are not theirs.

    Northam has stated that he did not purchase a copy of the yearbook and had never previously seen the page.

    Are we the sort of people who convict before we gather evidence? Or should we first get our facts straight?

  92. 92.

    WaterGirl

    @OzarkHillbilly: Hell no, not nearly enough. Maybe we need to fire everyone in charge of everything, and start over with a new crew. Hey, maybe we could call it “draining the swamp”?

  93. 93.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @Steve in the ATL:

    une scandale grande

    It’s une grande scandale, n’est-ce pas?

    We’re both wrong. It’s un scandal, not une scandale, so un grand scandale ou un scandale grand. Adjective may precede or follow the noun, if Google Translate is anything to go by.

  98. 98.

    Nicole

    @Bess:

    His first response was to apologize, which is what a wise politician would do. He didn’t remember it happening and checked with others before he later said that he wasn’t in the photograph.

    No, the wise response, if one has never done anything like that, is to say, “I have never, and would never, do anything like that. I don’t know who the people in that photo are, but neither could be me because I’ve never done anything like that.”

    To have done, ESPECIALLY as an adult, something like that should be disqualifying for political office. I assure you, there are millions of white Americans who have never put on blackface or posed in a Klan robe. Or darkened their skin to appear in a Michael Jackson competition.

  100. 100.

    WaterGirl

    @Bess: It’s clear to me from the last few days that the governor is completely tone deaf on this issue, and that’s the most polite way I can put it. The fact that he truly does not see to get what a giant mess he’s in proves to me that he does not belong in that position. He is acting more like a bewildered child than a grown man, and not once did he use the words “ashamed”, “mortified” or “disgusted” by his actions as a 25-year old. Not a teen, but 25 years. Sorry, but he can no longer lead.

    And yes, I am still pissed about Al Franken, because I think that was all ratfucking and no there there. So I agree with the principle of not throwing everyone under the bus because they have been accused, but this situation is not that.

    The governor’s platitudes about how he’ll try to be a better man, that great, I’m happy for him, but he has shown that he should not be governor while he does it.

  105. 105.

    Steve in the ATL

    @SiubhanDuinne: merde!

    IIRC, which is not necessarily the case, the adjective precedes the noun it modifies if it relates to beauty, age, goodness, or size.

    Un bon homme, une ancienne femme, etc.

  106. 106.

    Bess

    @Gin & Tonic: I am defending people, not assholes. More specifically I am objecting to how this community can sometimes rush to judgement and then fight off any facts they don’t find convenient.

    If you’ve listened to black people who have worked with and around Northam you’d know that he is not an asshole but someone who has worked for the black community.

    He might have done something years ago that now wouldn’t be approved of by some. Back then there was no discussion about a white actor appearing made up as an Asian or Native American.

  114. 114.

    Bess

    @WaterGirl:

    Do you know for a fact that Northam was either the person in blackface or the person in KKK robes in that photograph? (I don’t know if he is or is not.)

    If he isn’t either of those people don’t you think that his initial response might be confusion?

  115. 115.

    Gin & Tonic

    @Bess: Don’t hurt your back in your rush to move the goalposts.

    Going back to enjoying the sunshine and warm breezes. I’m out.

  116. 116.

    Aleta

    @Bess:
    1. Of course it’s different, completely different.
    I’ve never had any problem with anything you’ve said until now, but
    2. You’ve crossed a line with that ugly response. If you weren’t thinking straight you should admit that now and apologize, and hope for change in yourself.

  117. 117.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @WereBear:

    We can always keep what we remember.

    I have a whole series of moments to remember from that morning. A day will come when they will all pass from this world, but that’s OK, it is as it should be.

  118. 118.

    WaterGirl

    @jeffreyw: What a great picture of Homer! If I stare at this long enough, it will show the red dot. That doesn’t make him an asshole, though. Bad jeffrey!

  119. 119.

    Miss Bianca

    @Bess: Sorry, past the point of hearing excuses for the man. Ready for Governor Fairfax. Sometimes you really do have to cede the battle to win the war.

    @rikyrah: Or, y’know, what you said.

  120. 120.

    Another Scott

    @Bess:

    It looks like we may be well down the path of ruining the career of someone who has worked hard for the things we believe in. Because someone, possibly not him, was photographed in blackface.

    He’s admitted being in public in blackface. He just says that he doesn’t think it was him here, in this case.

    That’s a defense?!

    ⚡️LOLGOP ⚡️ Retweeted

    jelani cobb Verified account @jelani9
    22 hours ago

    How strange that there is zero tradition of black college kids dressing up (every. single. Halloween) in chalkface face and ridiculing white people.

    Northam acts like a toadie to Dominion and has done some ugly things to give them what they want.

    It really looks like you’re trolling here. You should stop.

    Northam needs to go. Quickly.

    My $0.02.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  122. 122.

    chopper

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    exactly. with northam dems are more furious then republicans over this shit. when the shoe is on the other foot, dems are furious but goopers are in steadfast denial. ‘oh, that’s not racist’. of course they know it’s racist (well, most of them), but they refuse because one of the first rules of republicanism is ‘never retreat, never surrender’.

    so the media goes ‘how can we say this guy is racist if half the people disagree?’ knowing full well that those half of the people are being completely disingenuous on the issue.

  123. 123.

    chopper

    @Bess:

    1) Picture appears.
    2) Rope is pitched over tree limb.
    3) As stool is being kicked out from under accused it appears that he might not be one of the people in the picture.

    you’re comparing what’s happening to northam over that picture to…a lynching? the fuck?

  124. 124.

    Mike in NC

    Brother in Boston emailed that it hit -3 last week. Never experienced temps like that growing up there, where it really never dipped below single digits.

  125. 125.

    WaterGirl

    @Bess: I agree with rikyrah on this. If you showed me a photo of myself in black face, where I could even distinguish my features, where I could recognize the clothes I was wearing as my own, and recognize even how I hold myself when I stand, I would say — I don’t care what it looks like, that is not me. I would be angry and wonder who the hell modified the image, but I sure as hell wouldn’t be confused.

    I have never been in blackface. I never dressed up like the Klan. I never yucked it up over jokes about black people. When you know who you are and what you have done, and what you have not done, there’s no confusion.

    edit: And I would NEVER apologize for whatever was in the photo, because I would know that it was not possible that I had done that.

  126. 126.

    chopper

    @Nicole:

    also, his response saying ‘that wasn’t me, that must have been a pic of someone else’ took a whole goddamn day to craft. why? did he have to think back on all the other times he dressed in blackface and go ‘yeah, but was one of them with a guy in a hood? i don’t remember that one’?

  127. 127.

    Bess

    @Aleta: Crossed what line?

    What some of us seem to be doing is no different from a behavior that we find abhorrent when done by others.

  128. 128.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @A Ghost To Most: We don’t have them here in the woods but mocking birds are very territorial and wiil attack anything that gets *too close* to it’s nest, a thing I was instructed on repeatedly as a child.

    **too close defined as “within 100 yds of”

  130. 130.

    Bess

    @WaterGirl:

    We should gather facts and then make judgement. Period.

    Northam may have had no memory of being in a photo like that (because he might not have been) but he needed to respond quickly as best he could.

  131. 131.

    Miss Bianca

    @WaterGirl:

    I am still pissed about Al Franken, because I think that was all ratfucking and no there there.

    There was ratfucking, but the overwhelming likelihood is that there was also some there, there. Enough to make defense difficult. Franken himself said that he had some skeletons in the closet that would preclude him from seeking the Presidency.

    As usual, Dorothy L. Sayers nails it about this type of character assassination attempt:

    Because, though nine-tenths of the mud might be thrown at random, the remaining tenth might quite easily be, as it usually was, dredged from the bottom of the well of truth, and would stick.

    ETA: And Franken was mensch enough to take one for the team. Unlike Northam. : (

  133. 133.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Bess:

    Crossed what line?

    I’ve been staying out of this argument, but if you can’t see the line you crossed, your obliviousness is not just in foresight but in hindsight as well. You’re whiteness is blinding you.

  134. 134.

    A Ghost To Most

    @OzarkHillbilly: Mockingbirds were thick as thieves in MD, and I agree. Having lived with both, I never chucked a rock at a mockingbird. I can certainly not say the same about scrub jays.

  135. 135.

    Bess

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    I crossed the line by pointing out the unfairness of convicting Northam before the facts were obtained with the unfairness of hanging a person before the facts were obtained?

    And by pointing out that the punishment may not fit the crime?

  137. 137.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Bess: At some point with this kind of issue, this may be a valid concern. This is not that point. This is way fucking far from that point.

  138. 138.

    WaterGirl

    @Bess:

    We should gather facts and then make judgement. Period.

    That first night I said maybe it was possible that he had never seen the yearbook photo, let’s wait and see what he says.

    Well, I did that. And the facts and his actions since are what condemn him. Most of us looked at the facts and formed a judgement, just as you said.

    You apparently looked at the facts and are forming excuses. That’s not a good look.

    I do get that he may be a good man in other ways, but at his core he does not seem to comprehend that his having dressed up in blackface is a big deal, to understand that his response to this photo is a reason to no longer trust him with a position of huge responsibility, that his merely still being in that office is causing pain to a whole lot of people. Because of all that, he is no longer fit to serve.

    If you can’t see that, perhaps it would be good to stop arguing on the blog and take a good look at yourself. Do you think dressing up in blackface is a big deal, or not?

  140. 140.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    pointing out that the rush to judgement on Northam is similar to lynching

    The odds of anyone really being this stupid are slim. Not non-existent, but slim.

  141. 141.

    WaterGirl

    @Miss Bianca:

    There was ratfucking, but the overwhelming likelihood is that there was also some there, there.

    We will have to agree to disagree on that. We’ll never be able to prove it definitively either way, so we can each hold our own opinions on that.

    I thought it was relevant to include because I am a “let’s not rush to judgement” person. But in this case, the evidence doesn’t help the governor.

  142. 142.

    Bess

    @WaterGirl:

    That first night I said maybe it was possible that he had never seen the yearbook photo, let’s wait and see what he says.

    Well, I did that. And the facts and his actions since are what condemn him. Most of us looked at the facts and formed a judgement, just as you said.

    Northam has clearly stated that 1) he is neither person in that photo and that 2) he had never seen that photo until it became public a day or so ago.

    Did you form your opinion before hearing his response? Have you reconsidered your opinion now that you know he denies being in that photo?

    I’m not asking if you’ve reversed your opinion of ‘guilty’ to ‘innocent’ but from guilty to unsure.

  143. 143.

    Miss Bianca

    @Bess: If you really can’t see the grotesquerie of comparing Northam’s situation to a lynching, it’s because you have no “tender fee-fees” at all – except for white guys who appear to be as fucking tone-deaf as you are about the implications of their words and actions. Take your “oh, won’t someone think of the harm being done to powerful white guys?” schtick and cram it, clown.

  145. 145.

    WaterGirl

    @Bess:

    OK, if I hurt your tender fee-fees by pointing out that the rush to judgement on Northam is similar to lynching then I apologize.

    I call that a fuck you, passive-aggressive, non-apology argument.

    Now that you have written that, there is simply no reason for any of us to engage with you on this subject.

  146. 146.

    Miss Bianca

    @WaterGirl: Let’s just say I have friends in Al Franken’s former industry who pursed their lips and went very still when I went off on a “he’s been framed!” rant. Kinda made me rethink my stance.

  147. 147.

    Bess

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: I fully understood what I posted. I intentionally used the lynching example as a harsh attempt to wake up some people who convicted on first rumor and are failing to consider that they might be wrong.

    I thought through what I wrote before hitting Post.

  149. 149.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Miss Bianca: interesting, because I’ve been ambivalent about Franken, and one of the reasons is that I thought, “He spent thirty years, off and on, in the often coke-fueled world of SNL and nobody has a bad word to say about him”

  150. 150.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Bess: Here is the thing – I am a rather privileged white guy, but I have never had to wonder whether a picture of some guy in a Klan costume or blackface was me. Do you know why? It is because I never dressed up as a Klansman or wore blackface. I don’t deserve any credit or kudos for that because it isn’t something that any decent person would do. Whatever defense someone may want to offer for it in the past (which I reject), no one who has been alive in the 50 some years that I have been on this earth has any excuse for doing this for “fun.”

  151. 151.

    Xenos

    Here in my corner of the white peoples ancient homeland candelmas is known as St Blaise’s Day, and is celebrated by children going from door to door, singing a traditional song in the local Frankish dialect involving a child king and demands for peas and bacon. You are not supposed to give them peas and bacon,you are to give them candy.

    the tradition is said to date from the days of the Black Death, when the area was 80% depopulated, as a way of celebrating having survived the first half of the winter.

  152. 152.

    Miss Bianca

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Like I said – there was ratfucking, but there appears to have been a *bit* of there, there. Stand-up and improv- It’s a very macho kind of world and most of the women I know in it have had to put up with a lot of “boys will be boys” BS in order to make it. Stuff they may not have thought anything about at the time, or just had to grin and bear to be “one of the boys.” By the standards of the time and place, I am sure Franken was a comparative saint. It’s just that the times, they are a-changin’, as some poet or other once observed, and what was even comparatively saintly behavior at that time would be considered harassment or even assault by today’s standards.

  153. 153.

    Bess

    @Miss Bianca:

    oh, won’t someone think of the harm being done to powerful white guys

    You assume I defend only powerful white guys? That’s pretty racist, sexist, classist of you. You don’t know me but if you did then you would know that I’ve defended people, not subsets of people.

    Now, I’m sorry that I got the discussion offtrack by the use of lynching as a comparison to what may have happened with Northam. I doubt it makes any sense for me to continue in this thread. My attempt to shock some people into thinking may have, in fact, given them an excuse to not consider the facts of Northam’s situation.

    I hope that some of you who formed an early opinion of guilt will be open to facts as they appear.

    While we should not tolerate misbehavior from politicians on the left we should make sure of our facts before acting. And we should make an attempt to make the punishment fit the crime. Not every misstep should lead to a summary execution.

  154. 154.

    Daniel'sBob

    @OzarkHillbilly: I would have agreed with you about blue jays until this past summer observing a male hummingbird driving every other hummer away from a feeder. I put up two more feeders thinking that would solve the problem, but he claimed every one. He spent his day rotating from feeder to feeder, perching on a nearby branch or on the feeder pole, and attacked any other hummer that tried to sneak in for a sip of nectar. By the end of July, the others had given up and moved on.

  155. 155.

    Miss Bianca

    @Bess: “Summary execution”, oh sweet little baby Jesus. Telling someone he no longer has the moral authority to lead because he’s lost the faith of his constituents is not “summary execution”, you clueless dipstick. He’s not going to be actually lynched for yukking it up once upon a time about people who actually *did* the lynching. He’s just being asked to step aside, as his fumbling explanations are doing him no good and the Democratic Party, and the state, actual harm. Is that so hard to understand? For some people, apparently it is.

    You weren’t trying to “shock people into thinking”, you were just just trying to shock, period. And since I’ve never seen you take up cudgels here in defense of anyone *but* privileged white guys, I’m going to go out on a limb here and say the “racist, sexist, classist” one here is…probably you. Every accusation a confession, Bessie.

  156. 156.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Bess: Some “missteps” require a recognition that what one did was wrong and a long period of proving that one learned a lesson. see, e.g. Robert Byrd.

  158. 158.

    CatFacts

    No, your attempt to use blackface as a cheap scare tactic to use on the internet rather than the acts of terror against actual people that it actually was, is making a lot of us think you’re just as racist and aggressively clueless as we think Northam was being. Anybody who can’t fucking remember whether they were in blackface or Klan robes or not…is just thinking of them as a costume rather than something that affected, you know, actual people. That’s a problem.

    You won’t listen to this, because you’re sea-lioning all over the thread like you did for all the Elon ones, but just wanted to point that out for the folks who may be listening. Don’t bother replying; I’ve got you pied from here on out. But do try to listen.

  160. 160.

    Bess

    @Miss Bianca:

    I’ve never needed to defend Barack Obama (a non-white male) or Hillary Clinton (a non-male) on this site. But I’ve defended both many, many, many times on other sites when they were being attacked in the same fact-free way. I understand that you do not know me.

    Northam may have now lost some or even all of his ability to lead but we have to ask whether he lost that ability for reason. Are we assisting a
    rush to judgement that might destroy one of the good people?

    He’s not going to be actually lynched for yukking it up once upon a time about people who actually *did* the lynching.

    Do you have any information about Northam yukking it up once upon a time? It’s not something I’ve heard about.

  161. 161.

    Daniel'sBob

    @Omnes Omnibus: Me too. Never heard a racial slur or a positive comment about the KKK within my family or immediate circle of friends, and neither would have been tolerated. Growing up in rural Illinois in the ’50s and ’60s, both were commonly heard outside those groups. I’m lucky I had that positive influence from childhood.

  163. 163.

    Gvg

    @Bess: well the facts coming out seem to indicate he attended an absolutely horrible school whose administration and most of the students were much more racist than other schools in that time frame. It’s also implied that he was also a blackout drunk. That is what I got from “I don’t remember”. Maybe you missed that other people from that school have been explaining not just what he did, but others at the same time?
    He ran as a democrat, he has been clearly not a GOP level racist so likely somewhere he learned some better, but he just hasn’t handled the challenges of the story well and as well as being clueless and selfish, he looks incompetent so I would want a better guy to take over.

  164. 164.

    chopper

    @Bess:

    But I’ve defended both many, many, many times on other sites when they were being attacked in the same fact-free way.

    so you say. so far, here, the only people you’ve shown up to defend are powerful white guys. but i’m sure your canadian girlfriend will vouch for you tho.

  165. 165.

    Bess

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    my god, the effort s/he’s putting into this…. why?

    Truth?

    Justice?

    Just like my strong defense of Elon when a front pager posted a highly untrue attack on him I don’t take the mistreatment of others’ reputations lightly.

    If you’re fine that with sort of thing then that’s your problem.

  168. 168.

    Bess

    @Gvg:

    I’ve heard nothing about blackout drinking. I’m not sure how that applies.

    Many of us who attended southern universities attended racist schools. The university where I got my first two degrees did not accept non-whites and the graduate department did not accept women. That did not mean that everyone who attended those schools were racists and misogynists.

  169. 169.

    Aleta

    @Bess: That’s a different point (at 127). OK to bring up, and many already have.

    I’m talking about your reply at (91). To a comment offered in good faith in a friendly way, w/ a link to a different perspective than yours. You didn’t take time for the link. Your analogy was not equivalent and doesn’t support your point.

    if it was a mistake done in a rush, say so. If not, you intentionally chose a meaningless argument for its ugliness and insult.

  170. 170.

    Miss Bianca

    @Bess: Ah, the old “hey, just because I was a member of the Nazi Party doesn’t mean I was anti-Semitic” defense! That’s a classic!

    At this point, I think it’s safe to say, “You’re not really here for the hunting, are you?”

  172. 172.

    Bess

    @Aleta:

    My comment at #91

    You assume guilt.

    Is that any different than “Someone stole my chickens. String up the first n***** you see, boys!”?

    Apparently it was too strong a comparison for some. I’ve apologized for that, #153 specifically.

    If we are offended by punishment delivered before facts are made and considered then we should apply that to all occurrences.

  173. 173.

    Bess

    @Miss Bianca: Do you differentiate between Germans who joined the Nazi party and Germans who worked to protect Jews from the Nazis?

    Or are all equally guilty because they lived in Germany?

  175. 175.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    Or are all equally guilty because they lived in Germany?

    okay, I googled and that is the definition of this “sea lion” thing
    ETA: Fuck “almost”, this is it

  176. 176.

    Bess

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    Sealioning (also spelled sea-lioning and sea lioning) is a type of trolling or harassment which consists of pursuing people with persistent requests for evidence or repeated questions, while maintaining a pretense of civility.[1][2][3] It may take the form of “incessant, bad-faith invitations to engage in debate.”[4] The troll pretends ignorance and feigns politeness, so that if the target is provoked into making an angry response, the troll can then act as the aggrieved party.[5][6] Sealioning can be performed by a single troll or by multiple ones acting in concert.[7] The technique of sealioning has been compared to the Gish gallop and metaphorically described as a denial-of-service attack targeted at human beings.[7]

    Wiki

    What’s the term for someone who uses accusations such as sealioning in order to shut up someone who is posting comments that they don’t like?

  179. 179.

    Bess

    @Another Scott:

    Trolling? Defending a liberal who I suspect may be unfairly attacked is trolling? That’s a definition I haven’t heard before.

    I’d suggest that if you don’t want to discuss the issue you simply close this thread. But you really don’t need to. It’s now bedtime on this side of the globe so I’ll close the thread and let those of you who enjoy doing work for the Republicans to get on with it.

  180. 180.

    The Thin Black Duke

    Uh, guys?

    Bess made a racist comment. And usually the people who make racist comments are—Shazam!—racist.

    That’s it, don’t overthink it.

  182. 182.

    debbie

    @Bess:

    He might have done something years ago that now wouldn’t be approved of by some. Back then there was no discussion about a white actor appearing made up as an Asian or Native American.

    That doesn’t make it okay. It was wrong back then, even if it was a somewhat common practice. This kind of thinking is the benign racism I referred to above. He’s had decades to come forward and make an honest statement of contrition. Being found out this way and then making the ridiculous statements and rationalizations he made only shows his efforts at expediency and changing the subject.

    Doing nothing or keeping silence in the face of evil is no better than active, aggressive evil.

  183. 183.

    Sister Golden Bear

    @Bess: Comparing this to a lynching, WTF!?

    And as someone who’s queer, comparing Obama’s position todoing backface or Klan cosplay is specious st best. (Not that Obama’s older positions on LGBT issues weren’t problematic — but he changed them and acted on that change.)

    You should’ve stopped digging a long time ago, and listened to the folks here whose group history involves actual lynching.

  185. 185.

    Aleta

    @Bess: 171

    Apparently it was too strong a comparison for some. I’ve apologized for that, #153 specifically.

    1. That imagined quote at 91 and 171 wasn’t a comparison.

    2. I see you’ve explained:

    “I intentionally used the lynching example as a harsh attempt to wake up some people.” “My attempt to shock some people into thinking may have, in fact, given them an excuse.” “I’m sorry that I got the discussion offtrack by the use of lynching as a comparison.”

    You say you’re asking for fair, reasoned decision-making. Those aren’t that.

    3. You say your imaginary quote (171) was chosen deliberately.
    I think the part you’re missing (or avoiding) is that
    using slurs to force shock = using slurs.
    using violent painful images to ‘wake up’ people = forcing pain on someone

    This is a mean, dishonorable way of fighting. Ill-considered and bad judgement at best. Intentional, but you won’t apologize. But you’re asking for fair, considered engagement before judging.

  186. 186.

    Lyrebird

    @Bess:

    Are we the sort of people who convict before we gather evidence? Or should we first get our facts straight?

    Well the Va Black Caucus took the time to meet face-to-face with Northam before drawing a conclusion.

    We don’t get to meet with @rikyrah in person on this page, but basic due diligence could include reading what she (she/her I think?) suggests, so as not to rush to judgement

    @Bess:

    What some of us seem to be doing is no different from a behavior that we find abhorrent when done by others.

    Telling an elected official they need to step down pursue a different line of work
    is
    beyond
    different
    from
    abducting, torturing, and literally murdering someone.

  187. 187.

    John Revolta

    Being wrong more often than you’re right is a kind of predictive skill.
    If I could take that groundhog to Atlantic City I’d have me a field day, tell you what.

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