My beautiful BFF son (8yo) was told to go home "because he is an illegal immigrant" on the soccer field at CMU (by another 8yo)…..I'm ill
— Ben Davies MD (UroLuddite) (@daviesbj) August 1, 2019
What do you do as a referee if you hear this?
At U-8, a very strong talking to the kid with the message that “Any more and you’re gone” and the same message to the coach.
Anything above that level, in my opinion as a former referee, Red Card & BUH-BYE for foul and abusive language.
At least that is how I would have handled it if I was still blowing a whistle.
In the current context, I would be reading any derogatory reference to immigration status in the same light as use of the “N*****R” or “F….t” perjoratives. Those are fighting words.
From this read, the referee has a very short window to make things right or there will be fists going into faces and/or cleats going through Achilles tendons very quickly. Players want justice. They are willing to give the referee a chance. For an extremely inflamatory comment, that window where the referee has the ability to satisfy the players’ thirst for justice is very short. A finger wagging or a public talking to is not justice. And once the referee has shown that they are incapable of delivering justice, the game will go to shit and injury risk has increased dramatically for all players.
Tom Levenson
Pulled a brief post to avoid sasquatching.
David Koch
Speaking of soccer
USWNT vs Ireland at the Rose Bowl
?(photo)☕
Saturday. 10 PM Eastern on ESPN
Tom Levenson
Also: I’d bounce even the U-8s in those circumstances.
Don
I’m in, as a non-soccer grandparent. A yellow card or equivalent and a tongue lashing for the coach should make for a teachable moment for all the kids, both teams.
RAVEN
That’s a coach, parent and whoever the program authority is issue. Toss his ass and address it with them after the “match”
Sab
How do I enbiggen the maps?
philpm
Address the child, tell him that’s not acceptable, let the coach know that if he hears it again, the kid is out, and if at all possible address the kids parents. That might be beyond what would normally be standard for a referee, but in this case I think its completely warranted.
Sab
@Sab: Somehow this comment is on the wrong thread.
Please disregard.
Either the site is being weird or I am. My guess is me.
debbie
Bench the little prick.
rp
Toss him for unsportsmanlike conduct.
satby
@philpm: I agree. I wouldn’t toss him o n the first offense only because they’re 8, but it would be crystal clear to the child, the coach, and the parents the next offense he’s out.
And if the adults gave me any shit about it at all, they take their kid home. Immediately.
A Ghost To Most
I think I’d want to identify the parents, and put them on notice as well.
It must suck being a referee/umpire these days.
philpm
@satby: Exactly my reasoning. He’s only repeating what he’s heard.
bemused
Definitely a teachable moment. When our boys were in junior high or younger, they were razzing and insulting each other as boys do which I ignored until one called one of his brothers a slur name. I asked him if he even knows what that word meant. He didn’t have a clue. He was pretty embarrassed and I’m pretty confident he never said that to anyone since.
The Moar You Know
I agree with this, mostly. I’d probably have a strong talking to the kid and a far stronger one to the coach (not to the parents because that’s most likely where the kid got it from). Make sure they both understand that “gone” means GONE.
I’m not a fan of zero-tolerance when it comes to kids under 10, unless the behavior is deliberate and repeated.
MisterForkbeard
@philpm: Yep. This is basically what I would do. Tell the the kid it’s unacceptable and why, make sure he (and his folks, and his coach) know what happened and that if it happened again you’ll throw the kid out of the game.
There’s likely some chance for political turbulence and so on, but straight up tell their parents that it’s your job to keep the game safe and regardless of whether or not they feel like it’s a racist thing to say it WILL start fights, so you’re shutting it down hard.
chopper
cry, followed by drinking?
JanieM
Going back a step, how do you train what might be a young teenage referee to handle situations like this when the parents may escalate the problem? Or even the coach, who, with 8-year-olds, is very likely a parent him/herself? Based on what I saw of parents when my kids were kids playing sports, this could be quite a challenge.
cain
@chopper:
Not holding aloft your magical sword and screaming “by the power of Greyskull!”?
Roger Moore
@philpm:
So you’re basically saying that for a U-8 player it’s a yellow card.
Keith P.
First kid to do it on each team gets a yellow card (unless it’s a *-word, which is immediate red card), then it’s red cards.
hueyplong
@Roger Moore: Yes, and as always two yellows make a red.
Jay
According to many of the top US MSM pundits, if you call out the racism, it will simply cause the kid and his parents to become Nazi Mass Murders.
rikyrah
The hardest part about loving a non-White Child is to prepare that child for when they encounter hatred for their existence. You know the day will come… you just don’t know when??
MomSense
That’s such a sad situation. The kid clearly has heard this from our president, and probably other adults in his family and friend circles. I would probably take the kid out of the game and then talk to the coach and family if they are there.
Pup is home from the clinic and will go back again tomorrow for the day. Hoping her liver recovers!
eric
actually, you had better be cautious because you may get some vociferous claims that you demeaned and shamed the offender. I think you call all players together and say that the next statement from any player on any team gets that player a red card. The more you single out the bad player, the greater the chance it blows up on you.
Alternative Fax, a hip hop artist from Idaho
I’d toss the kid’s ass even at U-8 and have a chat with coach and team.
Likely why I’d never get a gig as a ref, since I’m not sure it’s a red card offense. It should be.
Tony Jay
@MomSense:
Glad to hear the pup is okay. I must have missed a status report, what was the cause?
rikyrah
@MomSense:
Glad that you got a diagnosis. Sending positive thoughts ??
Jharp
“What do you do as a referee if you hear this?”
Tossed from game and reported to the league officials who should kick him out for the season.
It’s every bit as bad as the n word.
pacem appellant
Back in the early nineties, I refereed 1st/2nd grade basketball at the YMCA. Early in the season, a dad on the sideline started cussing out one of the other refs (there were 3 of us). The head ref, not more than 17 at the time but still in my mind very tough and upstanding, paused the game, told the guy to sit down and shut, or he’d be ejected from the game. The smarmy ass told the head ref that he was the kids’ coach and what the f* was he going to do about it? Head ref pointed to the door and told him 1) he was no longer the their coach, 2) to go outside and 3) never enter the gym again. That head ref was in charge, and the game was off if he said so, and the game wasn’t going to continue if smug mug was anywhere near the kids. Idiot dad was obviously not accustomed to being “disrespected” like that, being rich, white, and overprivileged, but he hightailed it out of the gym. Later, I heard that he complained the higher ups the Y, who told him the head ref was *always* right, and that he wasn’t the kids’ coach anymore and it was true that he wouldn’t stepping foot in that gym for the rest of the season.
Tall Tom
In our Recreation league, we would call that a “Mental Injury”, and require that the player be substituted for the rest of the half. (Go sit by the coach.)
Alternative Fax, a hip hop artist from Idaho
Good pupdate – thanks for keeping us in the loop.
Karen
@Tom Levenson: what is Sasqwatching?
Steve in the ATL
@Tony Jay: my dog swallowed something dangerous. I didn’t have any hydrogen peroxide to give him, so I showed him a picture of Boris Johnson and threw the bad stuff right up.
Butter Emails
@Karen: Bigfooting.
Yarrow
@MomSense: Glad the pup is doing okay. Did they figure out what was going on with her?
Omnes Omnibus
The kid heard the term at home or someplace close to home. Rather than single the kid out with a card, I think I might pause the game and bring the coaches together. I would tell them what I had heard and then tell them that this is the one warning that either team would get. The next derogatory thing I heard from anyone would be a red card. I would let them talk to their teams briefly and then resume play. Under 12, yellow for the first person to say something like that. Reds from there out. 12 and older, immediate red.
ETA: With the younger kids, it should be a chance to learn. The older kids should already know.
Yarrow
@Omnes Omnibus: Tend to agree. From later in the twitter thread:
The kid who it was directed toward didn’t even know what it meant. It’s possible the kid who said it didn’t really understand it either, especially if he hears it at home where it’s seen to be okay. At that young age treating it as a learning experience for everyone may be the best option. Definitely making sure everyone understands this one warning is the only one anyone is getting and that the ref controls the game for the safety of all involved.
debbie
@MomSense:
Hoping that liver rallies soon!
About a month after Obama took office, my 6-year-old niece piped up from the back seat, “Obama is horrible and I hate him.” I told her I would be very happy to discuss politics with her when I knew she had her own opinions, but I knew she was just saying what she had heard her father (my brother) say. She grumbled a bit and muttered that she still didn’t like him.
I could relate because my father got me to cheer for Nixon over JFK when I was that age. Boy, was he surprised when I came home from high school after getting a detention because I had written “Fuck Nixon” on my notebook.
Tony Jay
Resisting the urge to bounce the little shit (emphasis on the little) then it’s a straight yellow, immediate conference with the offending player, the two team captains and the coaches to make it utterly crystal clear that football has rules about foul and abusive language and little shit has broken them. One warning, notice given that this is all being reported to the League authorities and any further mouth will result in a straight red and possibly a team ban.
Then get the parents in the car park afterwards and kneecap the deplorable fuckwits (not legally sound advice).
Tony Jay
@Steve in the ATL:
Ha! Clown Prince Flobalob does have a talent after all!
No more pictures, though. Pup don’t need no relapse.
Jay
glory b
Contact the PA Human Relations Commission (local office in Pittsburgh) for guidance.
That’s literally what they are there for.
gene108
Red Card. Toss the kid. And a stern talking to with both the kid, coach, and parents why hurtful comments are bad sportsmanship. Stop the game, and make offending kid apologize and shake hands with insulted kid. Restart game.
Jay
raven
This level of misbehavior is beyond something the official should deal with. I spent over 20 years running municipal sports programs and this should be addressed by the organizing body. In the youth sports programs I ran we had a code of conduct the parents had to sign and they were responsible for their behavior and that of their child.
Yarrow
@raven: If there is such a code of conduct in place then the referee should know what it says and what the stated consequences are for violating it. The ref’s actions should be in line with whatever the code of conduct says.
Monala
Have y’all seen the Twitter ratio of (deputy Washington editor of NYT) Jonathan Weisman’s tweets yesterday? It went like this: Claire McCaskill said “free stuff from the government doesn’t play well in the Midwest;” Justice Democrats spokesman Waleed Shahid pointed out that Rashida Talib and Ilhan Omar are from the Midwest; in response Weisman tweeted that saying Talib and Omar are from the Midwest is like saying John Lewis is from the Deep South or Lloyd Doggett is from Texas.
He was rightly skewered for that comment, and ended up deleting it, while trying to excuse it by saying that he was just commenting on the urban/rural divide.
Here’s some good commentary about it: https://twitter.com/studentactivism/status/1156525003439034368
raven
@Yarrow: Not having one is malpractice. And I repeat, this is beyond what an official should be responsible for. Most officials in 8u are kids themselves.
HalfAssedHomesteader
The unavoidably sad part of this is that when it finally gets back to the parents it creates a “Do as I say not as I do” tension between the parent and child.
Buffalo Rude
I was reffing a U-10 game, more than 25 years ago, and a kid came up to me and said another kid on the other team was calling everyone he challenged or who challenged him a “f*ggot”. I hadn’t heard it myself at that point in the match, but I did shortly afterwards. So I stopped play and walked the offending kid over to his coach, pulled the coach aside and told him what was going on and that the kid should probably be done for the day. If not, the next time I heard it, the game was over.
After the match, the offending kid’s mom made him apologize to every kid on the other team when they were shaking hands. Though, she shot me a death stare the whole time.
MomSense
@Tony Jay:
She probably ingested Tylenol. I don’t use the stuff but my mom has some and was probably careless with it. The problem is my mom is constantly giving the dog people food so the dog is by her side all day used to snatching food from her. Fortunately the hepatic reaction didn’t affect her blood or pancreas. So the treatment is two days of IVs, antibiotics, and some other meds to hopefully flush her system of the toxins. Then we will test her liver function and hope she heals.
TenguPhule
@Tony Jay: So when will you do a guest post on Boris Fuck him very much Johnson?
Tom Levenson
@Karen: Bigfooting the previous post
Harbison
For purposes of assessing a penalty, does it really matter what the kid said beyond it was intended to be an insult?
At that age, I would think that the goal is to instill in the kid the idea that it is unacceptable to insult other players, rather than sorting offending language into red card, yellow card, warning categories.
Amir Khalid
@Alternative Fax, a hip hop artist from Idaho:
Per the laws of the game, verbally baiting an opponent is most definitely a straight-red foul — an instant sending off, not a caution. Remember when France’s Zinedine Zidane was sent off for headbutting Italy’s Marco Materazzi in a World Cup final? Testifying before the tournament disciplinary committee, Materazzi admitted verbally provoking Zidane, for which he was not penalised at the match because the ref didn’t hear him. Materazzi got the standard punishment for a red card: suspension for Italy’s next three matches.
In the under-8 incident, I would not dispute David’s recommended action. But I think a red card for the kid would be justifiable, along with some kind of sanction for the coach.
ETA: A teenage match referee should act the same as an adult one. But they will need more backup in the face of belligerent parents/coaches.
cmorenc
Longtime soccer referee here:
Of course the ethnic insult is an immediate straight red card at any age much older than U8, and maybe even here. However this young (U8), you may get enough traction with an immediate yellow card and escort the kid to the bench and explanation to the coach, but you’re taking some risks here – coach’s reaction will give you a clue if the kid is also reflecting the coach or just his parents. If you went the latter route, you are, however betting on the coach engaging the issue in a supportively constructive way, and that the offended boy’s parents aren’t going to complain you treated a racial slur lightly. AND, if the perp turns out to be the coach’s son…
Maybe better to give the kid a red and decisively teach him an important lesson early, and not let him get it into his head that ethnic insults are mere faux pas.
MomSense
@Harbison:
I think the primary goal is to make sure the young boy who was the target of this hateful outburst feels safe and supported. The secondary goal is to make sure the bully, his coach, team members, and family learn that this behavior is unacceptable and wrong.
Omnes Omnibus
@MomSense: Little kids are both learning the game and learning acceptable social behavior. That is one of the reasons I would kick it over to the coaches with the 8 y/os.
Tony Jay
@MomSense:
Ouch! The fingers, they are crossed. Poor little pup!
“I only wanted tasty treats!”
cwmoss
@Steve in the ATL: Not bad, but definitely keep the day job.
Tony Jay
@TenguPhule:
Well, there’s one coming that you’ll thoroughly enjoy, giving my not at all foul-mouthed opinion on the anti-Semitism smear campaign launched against the Labour Party, but it’s hard to get much of a rant going against Johnson because we’re still in that strange half-world performance stage of Spaffer’s reign of error where the over-extended gobshite says a lot, but it doesn’t actually mean fuck-all, because while he can claim to be Prime Minister, he’s yet to ask Parliament to give it’s opinion on him or any of his spiffy wheezes.
When things start to form up, so will I, and feel free to purge your system of that image ASAP. Plus I’m on holiday up in Scotland. Wasting precious drinking time on that soon-to-be-a-footnote jismite seems like a terrible way to enjoy summer. 8-)
marv
You know what? And I say this as a guy who was a professional athlete and the best thing he ever wrote was an essay about baseball and racism – as a referee, you do nothing. The question is: As a human being, what do you do? The answer is not as easy as some people think.
Omnes Omnibus
@marv: Okay, I’ll bite. Why do you say do nothing as a referee?
smintheus
I would either toss the kid’s ass, or do nothing and let the other kid kick the shit out him. It’s not the little prick you should be concerning yourself, it’s the kid who was denigrated. If he sees a wishy washy response to an insult like that, his (correct) conclusion is that you care about keeping the tone of abusiveness down, not that you care about how he has been wronged.
The kid tossed out of the game has more than enough time on his hands to think about his sins. So do his coach and parents. You shouldn’t impose on the kid who has been insulted to suggest he needs to learn to accommodate himself to that shit.
philpm
@Roger Moore: Yes, but with extra scolding.
marv
@Omnes Omnibus: @Omnes Omnibus:
Well, I meant the next part to make that clear. Even at the highest levels (in sports) there is an intensity and a code and yet a point may arrive, even among athletes that are household names, where it’s like: Dude, that’s fucked up. Just as one human being to another. Well, not always so easy to explain to an 8-year-old. That’s all I meant
Marcelo
Toss him. No leniency here. I get the desire to be soft because he’s a kid, but you know a lot of refs would toss a black kid for less. You toss the offender, ask the victim if he wants me to talk to the team as a whole between halves, ask the victim’s family what they would like as well. If they don’t want to be center of attention, respect their wishes, but it’s absolutely critical to show them that you are on their side. If the offender can’t play without saying shit, then he can’t play.
Around the same age, I was sat out for a half by my soccer coach because he overheard me say “bad game” to the other team during the “good game” group high five the previous match. I imagine if I had said some racist shit I’d be benched for the entire season and possibly kicked off the team. And it would be right to do so. The boy has to learn that there are consequences to his words even if he learned it from parents. He can then stand up to his parents whose attitudes led to his getting benched.
I teach arts summer camp now and I absolutely would send a kid home for that kind of language, no warning first. 8 year olds ARE smart enough to understand racism.
Mai Naem mobile
Beat the shit out of the kid. Okay’ i guess you can’t do that. I don’t know but I can tell you I faced racist name calling as a kid(and i understood it) and it was really hurtful. It really affects you. It kills your day for sure. I can handle racist crap as an adult but as a kid I am not even sure if an adult stepping in would have made a difference(assuming it was verbal and not physical)because it doesn’t stop you from thinking the kid is a racist and will always be a racist. This is beyond a refereeing thread but I don’t even think racism is fixable. All you can do is make it not acceptable in polite society so it’s not in your face.
SWMBO
@MomSense: When my kids were very young, the youngest one was teething and taking liquid tylenol. The oldest one was a 4 year old. The babysitter was giving the teething child the tylenol his dose when the 4yo picked up the bottle and drank it all. The poor sitter called her mom (this was before cell phones) and mom took all three to the ER. Got her syrup of ipecac and she was blowing beets when we got there. Her mother said she was never letting her babysit again since this happened. I said I trust her more even now. She knew enough to get the guzzler to the ER, got her help and learned her lesson. She would be even better as a sitter after that. (We used her for years after that. Until she grew up and went to college.) Anyway, it did some damage to her liver and we monitored it for a few years with blood tests every three months. She eventually got back to normal function but it does take a while. Don’t let her drink alcohol for a while until normal function returns. ;-)
Mike in NC
Just a few minutes ago I was introduced on the first deck to a very hot bartender from Serbia. Wondering if I shouldn’t pull a Trump and have her shipped home as a mail order bride. Nah!
Unsympathetic
Gotta be a straight red. I have no tolerance for bullies.
If the kid didn’t mean it, that should be enough of a jolt to change behavior.
If he did, then he won’t care about the suspension anyway.