Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

A democracy can’t function when people can’t distinguish facts from lies.

New McCarthy, same old McCarthyism.

I’d try pessimism, but it probably wouldn’t work.

People are complicated. Love is not.

Shallow, uninformed, and lacking identity

“More of this”, i said to the dog.

After roe, women are no longer free.

This really is a full service blog.

Peak wingnut was a lie.

The republican caucus is already covering themselves with something, and it’s not glory.

Let’s not be the monsters we hate.

Fuck these fucking interesting times.

So it was an October Surprise A Day, like an Advent calendar but for crime.

Too often we hand the biggest microphones to the cynics and the critics who delight in declaring failure.

Only Democrats have agency, apparently.

The willow is too close to the house.

My years-long effort to drive family and friends away has really paid off this year.

Republicans are radicals, not conservatives.

Make the republican party small enough to drown in a bathtub.

The next time the wall street journal editorial board speaks the truth will be the first.

Historically it was a little unusual for the president to be an incoherent babbling moron.

Eh, that’s media spin. biden’s health is fine and he’s doing a good job.

Hot air and ill-informed banter

No offense, but this thread hasn’t been about you for quite a while.

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259Comments

  1. 1.

    PsiFighter37

    Sure seems suspicious. I hope that whatever evidence they found in his house still sees the light of day somehow. That said, I bet Cyrus Vance will be all too happy to bury the case (if he is in charge – to be fair, not sure if this one is his or not).

  2. 2.

    Miss Bianca

    Well, the rat would smell regardless, but no…you’re not the only one.

    Off this morning to the funeral of the father of one of our young actors. A guy whose absence will REALLY be missed and lamented, not like Epstein.

  4. 4.

    NotMax

    Repeating from downstairs.

    Unless I’m greatly mistaken, this removes any restrictions on release of evidence. Legally, the dead cannot be defamed.

    Legal jackals, please pipe up.

  5. 5.

    CCL

    Please dear deity(ies) forgive me for falling into CT territory, but I want photos of the body.

  12. 12.

    Mike R

    No, sounds fishy as hell. Given that he would never see the outside again it is possible he did it himself. The big question why wasn’t he more closely monitored considering the people who could have been implicated.

  13. 13.

    Quinerly

    I didn’t get thru yesterday’s threads. I am assuming most read those two big Daily Beast pieces yesterday. I think it was Daily Beast. I’ll find and post.

  14. 14.

    SFAW

    @schrodingers_cat:

    I smell a gigantic rat, is it an orange one or a Russian one?

    As the saying goes: por que no los dos?

    Interesting how we were told a week ago that he was on suicide watch. I guess they felt the danger passed after 12 or so hours.

  16. 16.

    Jay C

    An easily-explainable error regarding the orders for the “suicide watch”.

    They obviously interpreted it to mean they should watch him commit suicide…

  17. 17.

    germy

    After his first suicide attempt, I thought he’d be placed on a suicide watch, and denied any possible tools he’d use to kill himself with.

    Apparently, they were more comfortable with letting himself finish it, rather than more evidence coming out?

  19. 19.

    Steeplejack

    I do wonder why they’re so quick to say suicide. MSNBC did report it as “found dead in his cell” but mentioned suicide later. Usually the authorities are loath to say too much too soon. He could have had a heart attack.

    And, if the person involved was totally under your control and was supposedly on suicide watch, I don’t see how immediately trumpeting “Suicide!” helps your case. “We appear to be totally incompetent, but it’s okay because everybody hated the guy anyway.”

  20. 20.

    MattF

    There’s some ‘splainin’ to do. He was undoubtedly under a 24hr suicide watch, but, OTOH, a lot of powerful people wanted him dead. In fact, there was likely a scuffle to be first in line.

  23. 23.

    Another Scott

    Remember he apparently tried this around the last week of July. I guess he succeeded yesterday.

    I’m not surprised, and I don’t think that anyone else was necessarily involved.

    He should have been on suicide watch from the moment he was arrested. This isn’t rocket surgery…

    My $0.02.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  29. 29.

    A Ghost To Most

    I see nothing fishy here, but I could be wrong .

    Epstein was a power freak, and had lost all his power, likely permanently. He had nothing to live for.

  31. 31.

    B.B.A.

    Many years ago I took a class with a professor who has been named in the Epstein papers. He was brilliant, well-respected, a giant in his field, the course was a highlight of my educational career… none of which matters. He was a rapist. I’m ashamed to be one degree of separation from this sickening morass.

  32. 32.

    Sloane Ranger

    @SFAW:

    Interesting how we were told a week ago that he was on suicide watch.

    That’s what I was wondering. I’d want to know who took him off it and why, or, if he was still on it, how this happened. There should be a full and public investigation given the circumstances.

    I agree with those who say that the evidence will now be quietly buried. Too many powerful people implicated, with too much to lose.

  34. 34.

    Frankensteinbeck

    When a man wants to kill himself, his neighbors (fellow prisoners) want to kill him, and many people in power want him dead, keeping him alive is pretty damn hard.

  35. 35.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @NotMax:

    Legally, the dead cannot be defamed.

    True, but the living can be, expect a lot of litigation from them before any releases.

  36. 36.

    Jeffro

    Wow. Completely anticipated and yet weird to see that it actually happened. (Is there a German term for that?)

    Pimp and blackmailer to the rich and famous…rapist of dozens if not hundreds of underage girls…going by his own hand is/was far too good for him.

  37. 37.

    brettvk

    @A Ghost To Most: It well may be a straightforward suicide by someone facing life in prison. But we live in a nation awash in conspiracy theory, so the Q heads will take this and run with it. Social media is undoubtedly exploding as I type this.

  38. 38.

    HalfAssedHomesteader

    So thoughtful to commit “suicide” on the weekend when most people tune-out the news.

  41. 41.

    TS (the original)

    @JPL:

    his death might invalidate non disclosure agreements

    So we might hear from his victims – we already have and he got a year in jail. Many wealthy powerful people are breathing easier after this.

  42. 42.

    germy

    ICYMI: Buried in the trove of documents are the names of influential people including former Sen. Majority Leader George Mitchell, who in 2008 — the same year Epstein received his sweetheart deal — was one of Time magazine's most powerful people. https://t.co/pZWZWos7e1— julie k. brown (@jkbjournalist) August 10, 2019

  43. 43.

    Spanky

    New York (CNN)Hundreds of pages of court documents unsealed Friday in New York federal court allege new details of sexual abuse claims against multimillionaire Jeffrey Epstein and several associates.

    At the heart of the documents connected to a 2015 defamation case are allegations by a woman, Virginia Roberts Giuffre, who has claimed that Epstein kept her as a teenage “sex slave” and that he was assisted in his efforts by a British woman, Ghislaine Maxwell.

    ETA – I see I’m not first to mention it.

    And why are non-disclosure statements even valid when they involve felonies?

  44. 44.

    Citizen_X

    Once again, I would like to complain to the writers of this series. First all this suspension-of-disbelief-challenging stuff, and now this cliche to get rid of one troublesome character? Pfft!

  46. 46.

    germy

    @Peale: Yes, like Maxwell. She’s the trust fund brat (remember her father tumbling off the yacht?) who was Epstein’s conspirator.

  49. 49.

    JMG

    Failing to maintain a suicide watch on a prisoner known to be suicidal (against all regulations) is both easy to do and I would think criminally negligent manslaughter at a minimum. Since nobody on earth is going to believe any story the feds tell, this one will go on fo awhile. PS: I would think his victims could still sue his estate.

  51. 51.

    A Ghost To Most

    @brettvk:
    It would seem that conspiracy theories are already propagating here.

    Occam’s Razor is useful in the absence of further evidence.

  52. 52.

    Spc

    @Mike R: I’m sure he did it willingly; there was no way out this time. What many will wonder though is whether his watch was compromised to make the deed a bit easier.

  54. 54.

    NotMax

    Have no idea whether anything Epstein related ties into Bohemian Grove. But there certainly have been shady rumors about that gathering of the movers and shakers for many a year.

  55. 55.

    The Dangerman

    Shockingly, his cell just happened to have some leftover polonium in it. What were the chances?

  57. 57.

    germy

    They reporting that he hanged himself.

    Jeffrey Epstein killed himself in a way that literally should not have been possible. Someone on suicide watch should not have access to sheets, shoelaces, or anything else. What the hell happened?— Caroline Orr (@RVAwonk) August 10, 2019

  58. 58.

    Frankensteinbeck

    @germy:
    Oh, yes. I’ve heard those already. The conservative base’s reaction to Epstein has been that Bill Clinton flew to the island once and Trump kicked Epstein out of his golf course for hitting on a rich patron’s daughter, ergo it is really the Democrats that are in trouble when the pedophile revelations come out.

    EDIT – @Aleta:

    Must be very hard for all the people hoping they’d see their abuser convicted.

    Damn. I didn’t think of that and it’s an important take. Thank you.

  59. 59.

    Betty Cracker

    @Jeffro: Maxwell hasn’t even been charged, as far as I know, and I don’t understand why not. From the media reports, it looks like she was complicit in a ton of crimes. Hope she has competent private security staff.

  60. 60.

    randy khan

    While every death diminishes us all, some diminish us a lot less than the others, if you know what I mean.

  64. 64.

    SFAW

    @schrodingers_cat:

    By wingers do you mean the New York Fucking Times?

    You sure do hate the FTFTFNYT!

    Which is my way of saying: Good one! I wish I had thought of that one first

  65. 65.

    StringOnAStick

    @Betty Cracker: Isn’t Maxwell living someplace other than the US? I’ve been consistently shocked that she isn’t under indictment or extradition request.

  68. 68.

    Spanky

    @Betty Cracker: The paragraph after the ones I quoted at #42:

    Epstein pleaded not guilty in July to charges from New York federal prosecutors after an indictment accused him of sex trafficking dozens of underage girls, some as young as 14 years old. Maxwell hasn’t been charged.

  69. 69.

    Betty Cracker

    @germy: Also, he was in the same jail where El Chapo, Ramzi Yusef, et al, have been held in NYC — supposedly an extremely secure prison that is used to holding high-profile inmates. I mean, I can well believe Epstein wanted to kill himself; I hope he hated himself enough to wish for death since he was a loathsome piece of shit. But he was supposedly in solitary confinement and on suicide watch after an earlier attempt. Maybe this was sheer incompetence on the part of the prison, but it sure seems convenient for a lot of powerful people that Epstein is dead.

  72. 72.

    dimmsdale

    I don’t know why, but I’m tremendously saddened by this. Not that he “deserved” to live, just that I have been watching so many instances of justice denied lately. All his victims deserved justice. All of society, which has been bamboozled by the myth of elites somehow deserving of their “success”, deserves justice in this case. ALL the influential names who gathered under Epstein’s child-rape umbrella deserve justice. Acosta deserves justice. And whatever low-level dunce in the jail who took whatever incentive he/she took to either look the other way or actively assist Epstein’s demise, deserves justice too.

    This should NOT be over; the entire fetid nest of child-rapists and enablers that surrounded Epstein ought to be pursued with new vigor; someone ought to kick Cy Vance to the curb and give the case to a hungry prosecutor who still cares about Justice.

    I’d hoped the Epstein case would be one in which the elites finally–FINALLY–would face the same justice the rest of us do. Justice denied.

  77. 77.

    brettvk

    @A Ghost To Most: It’s the sort of thing where, whatever the “truth” is, it can be obliterated by the thicket of suspicion and disinformation that almost instantly grows up around it. When you can no longer trust the government or media to provide you with truthful information, you are left choosing the conspiracy theory that conforms with your prejudices. We’re turning into post-Soviet Russia. It’s profoundly ironic that we “won” the Cold War with our global enemy only to degenerate within decades into their twin.

  79. 79.

    The Moar You Know

    He tried once. He knew he was going to be found guilty of offenses that would place him, in the public eye, right underneath Hitler.

    So, history and motive.

    I don’t need to look any further.

  80. 80.

    Spanky

    Dershowitz, who was part of the legal team that negotiated a controversial 2007 deal that allowed Epstein to avoid federal prosecution for sex trafficking in Florida and instead plead guilty to lesser state charges, has denied her claims and accused her of fabricating the allegations against him.

    Friday, he said in a statement that the fresh batch of documents “categorically proves that Virginia Roberts never had sex with me.”

    You would think that a harvard law perfessor would know that you can’t prove a negative, but I guess not. Can you smell the desperation?

  81. 81.

    NotMax

    One (lesser) question now is who will play Epstein in the cable TV movie*?

    More important, who in his right mind would agree to?

    *C’mon. Sex and nubile teens. Do ya really think it won’t be announced as in production?

  82. 82.

    James E Powell

    @JMG:

    I would think his victims could still sue his estate.

    Judgments are paper. Does he have any assets that can be attached?

  85. 85.

    Shakti

    Per the twitters, exactly ZERO people think he killed himself. It is possible but way too many powerful people wanted him dead.

  86. 86.

    LanceThruster

    @germy:

    Heard Chosanistan is a wonderful place to retire for billionaires on the run from the law. If only he had some powerful connections willing to facilitate this.

    Oh well, I guess it’s too late now. ;-)

  89. 89.

    Kay

    @dimmsdale:

    I don’t know why, but I’m tremendously saddened by this.

    I’d hoped the Epstein case would be one in which the elites finally–FINALLY–would face the same justice the rest of us do. Justice denied.

    Agreed.

  90. 90.

    Gravenstone

    This was clearly allowed to happen, if not actually a murder made to appear as suicide. After his ‘neck injury’ of a week or so ago, he should have been on 24 hour suicide watch.

  91. 91.

    LanceThruster

    @NotMax:

    I’m terrified that it will ignore historical accuracy and in the docudrama, Dershowitz *won’t* keep his underwear on.

  92. 92.

    oldster

    The plutocracy heaves a sigh of relief.

    And America takes another step towards turning into Putin’s Russia, where the dictator’s enemies die conveniently.

  93. 93.

    Kay

    For this I’m going with the obvious cause is probably true- they fucked up. Corrections personnel all hate their jobs. It’s miserable work.

  94. 94.

    Gravenstone

    @NotMax: It will also put to the test the frequent assertions here that he had a ‘deadman switch’ to dump incriminating information if something happened to him. Guess we’ll all see in the coming days.

  96. 96.

    bystander

    If anybody can establish that Epstein was on to Killary’s kiddie porn pizza parlor operation (crossover “employees”?) then I think we can all assume we know what really happened. If so, she has really stepped up her game since her sloppy Benghazi fiasco.

  97. 97.

    LanceThruster

    @Spanky:

    Are you trying to say that a scholar who would write The Case for Israel might play fast and loose with the facts?!?

    I’m shocked, shocked I tell you!

  98. 98.

    Quinerly

    When they found him around 6:30, he was in “distress.”
    Pronounced dead around 7:30 at the hospital.
    MSNBC reporting.

  101. 101.

    gene108

    @debbie:

    Either the media will find the information so salacious, they can’t but help themselves in publishing every little detail, like the Clinton-Lewinsky affair, or they will find it too obscene or some such, to subject the public to such filthy material.

    I think it really depends, if any news bigwigs are caught up in this, and/or what sort of access deals they have with the rich and powerful for news stories.

  102. 102.

    PaulWartenberg

    The part of me that enjoys the occasional conspiracy theory – mostly as entertainment (X-Phile!) because I know half of those things CAN’T really happen the way the nuts claim – is running overdrive right now, and in a serious way.

    I haven’t seen anyone else’s comments on this yet, jumping straight to here, but my thoughts are:
    1) I thought he was supposed to be on suicide watch and prevented from doing anything like this
    2) Every guard and supervisor at that prison needs to undergo financial and communications scrutiny right now. Someone got paid off, someone said something, someone knows…
    3) There are arguments that the warrant on Epstein is enforceable even if he dies, meaning that in certain situations his corrupt buddies may have wanted him ALIVE to serve as a scapegoat/hinder the investigation with bad info. Even if *this* is true, there is every likelihood given Epstein’s long career as a pedophile/pimp, he’s seen and learned far too much vile things that someone in his circle fear even greater exposure.

    This thing reeks to high heaven. It’s too damned obvious a cover-up to let go.

  104. 104.

    donnah

    @Betty Cracker:

    I find his “suicide” circumstances pretty suspicious. However, I don’t think he hated himself or was ashamed. He’s like Trump in that he has no true sense of shame or any self-loathing. What could have made him commit suicide was cowardice and loss of power.

    It’s been stated that he was still under suicide watch, which seems pretty badly handled, since he’s dead. If he was under specific surveillance as part of a suicide watch, there should be video evidence. If not, then what does suicide watch actually entail? No sheets, no shoestrings, no sharp objects?

    Maybe the truth will come out, but probably not. Who knows anymore?

    Also, good riddance.

  107. 107.

    Kay

    The victim account that was released yesterday exonerated both Trump and Clinton (as to that victim or the events she witnessed). It doesn’t exclude the possibility that there are others, obviously, but that is what she said.

    The entire Right wing has taken that to mean Clinton is guilty and Trump is not.

    So IMO with or without the suicide this was already in the category of “there will be no facts, only opinions stated as facts”

  110. 110.

    catclub

    @germy:

    She’s the trust fund brat (remember her father tumbling off the yacht?) who was Epstein’s conspirator.
    Reply

    That Maxwell? Wow.

  113. 113.

    germy

    The White House called a lid for the day at 9:30 am.— Andrew Feinberg (@AndrewFeinberg) August 10, 2019

    A term used by White House press secretaries to indicate that there will be no news coming out of the White House that day. It can also be called a ‘Full Lid.’— pattir (@patring30) August 10, 2019

  114. 114.

    David Anderson

    I don’t smell a rat. In my late teens, a pedophile was arrested and despite being on a suicide watch at the NH county jail, he managed to kill himself in ninety six hours between arrest and arraignment.

    We know Epstein was a control freak, probable sociopath, and loved to lord his superior power over underlings and inferiors. Being arrested and credibly believing that his best outcome was life in solitary for self-protection strips all of that away.

    Now is it worth asking if the suicide watch was following protocol? Yes, but given that Epstein had already recently attempted suicide and then documents were getting unsealed that further demolished him and his self-perception and worth, I don’t smell a rat.

  116. 116.

    JPL

    Not that I would want to watch, but I’m curious what will happen to the video tapes taken as evidence from his ny town house.

  120. 120.

    germy

    @debbie: Normally he has an opinion about everything and anything that happens. But this morning, they’ve gone officially silent.

  122. 122.

    Kay

    @B.B.A.:

    We have one at the local jail who is a real authoritarian enthusiast. In a disturbing way that once led to my having a screaming fight with her over how she treats family members of prisoners, people <em she is paid to serve politely and decently because who the fuck else comes into a jail. I lost my temper. But she doesn’t have prisoner contact. She sits in a little glassed-in command post and abuses people verbally. I think it’s flat-out miserable work for the actual guards.

  124. 124.

    jonas

    I thought he was on suicide watch after they suspected he tried to kill himself last week. Shit. Can’t LE do anything right with this guy? WTF?

  126. 126.

    Spanky

    @debbie: I’m sure the White House is all “Epstein who?” these days, so nobody there will connect the two.

    Plus, it’s pretty great weather here in the DC area, so maybe Donnie wants to get 36 holes in.

  127. 127.

    JPL

    @David Anderson: A few years ago in GA a man arrested for raping a murdering a child was on suicide watch and committed suicide. It happens.

    Does anyone know where Rudy is though?

  134. 134.

    janesays

    @The Moar You Know: I think he probably did commit suicide, but I think the fact that he had access to the implements to commit suicide needs to be thoroughly investigated. The conspiracy could be that he was given whatever he used as a noose by a guard who then looked the other way. That’s highly plausible. People on suicide watch aren’t supposed to have access to shoelaces, bedsheets, or anything else that can be used to asphyxiate oneself.

    So yeah… I think he most likely really did commit suicide, but I also think he very likely had some help in getting it done.

  135. 135.

    LanceThruster

    What I want to know is, how many times was he shot in the back of the head? Did he craft his gun from a bar of soap?

  136. 136.

    jonas

    @James E Powell:

    Does he have any assets that can be attached?

    He’s not some multi-billionaire like he pretended to be, but the list of assets he submitted at his arraignment put his wealth in the many hundreds of millions, including real estate and millions in cash and jewelry in a safe in one of his houses (forget which one — where he also apparently had a fake passport and a bunch of other suspicious shit).

    Nobody’s really sure how he made his money, which certainly now adds to the mystery surrounding all of this.

  137. 137.

    catclub

    @David Anderson: maybe so. hannibal the cannibal would never commit suicide, if allowed to testify, he would invent extremely salacious stories about famous people, and tell them at length. plus true ones.

  138. 138.

    leeleeFL

    Really glad that I kept up my dues in the Cynics Society! I might not have as much doubt about Epstein’s Suicide! I smell a hit!

  140. 140.

    germy

    @David Anderson:

    In my late teens, a pedophile was arrested and despite being on a suicide watch at the NH county jail, he managed to kill himself

    It probably happens all the time.

    But I honestly thought high profile cases like Epstein’s were different. The guards, the authorities… they all know they’re under scrutiny by the media and politicians.

    I’m not surprised if some local guy decides to end it in his cell. The authorities don’t care.

    But when a high profile case like this, especially after a previous suicide attempt, is successful, it raises questions.

  141. 141.

    LanceThruster

    Well… MSNBC is basically covering this as, “Well you know, stuff happens. What are you gonna do?,” with talking heads assuring us that authorities will no doubt get to the bottom of it.

    The same authorities in charge of his suicide watch.

    Riiiight.

  142. 142.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @germy:

    Henry Winkler?

    How weird you would say that, as Henry Winkler is the guest on “Wait, Wait, Don’t Tell Me” at this very minute!

  143. 143.

    Fair Economist

    @Gravenstone:

    This was clearly allowed to happen, if not actually a murder made to appear as suicide. After his ‘neck injury’ of a week or so ago, he should have been on 24 hour suicide watch.

    I’ll remind people that, supposedly, in his earlier half-assed incarceration, Epstein was bribing guards to let him come and go as he wished and even bring in girls (blech). Given the amount of power and money threatened by Epstein’s trial, there are a lot who would be willing to corrupt some guards and if Epstein did it before, I’m sure somebody can pull it off now. Bribing a guard to “accidentally” goof on suicide watch leaves a lot fewer tracks than actually killing him, and I’m inclined to think he was actually suicidal since this was the second attempt.

  145. 145.

    Mai Naem mobile

    @NotMax: nah they’re blaming it on the Clinton dead list . I heard this when he was injured a few weeks ago. I honestly don’t know what RWNJs will do when Bill and Hillary pass on.

  149. 149.

    Quinerly

    Actually the first 30 minutes of Joy Reid’s MSNBC’s show has been quite good.
    (I almost fed a troll)

  150. 150.

    Kay

    We need the co-conspirators that Acosta immunized. I just hope we don’t get a million lame excuses about how no one can be prosecuted because it’s too hard and the prosecution might lose. They have a credibility crisis. They have to recognize this as a problem.

  152. 152.

    germy

    DEBAUCHEE, n. One who has so earnestly pursued pleasure that he has had the misfortune to overtake it.

    – Ambrose Bierce, Devil’s Dictionary

  154. 154.

    Kay

    It’s very frustrating and sad to me because they had him. They had him years ago. In Florida. And they let him go.

  155. 155.

    randy khan

    @The Moar You Know:

    He tried once. He knew he was going to be found guilty of offenses that would place him, in the public eye, right underneath Hitler.

    So, history and motive.

    I don’t need to look any further.

    Occam’s Razor. People who really want to kill themselves generally find a way to do it. And “suicide watch” does not mean there’s someone outside your cell at all times – there aren’t enough guards to do that.

  158. 158.

    germy

    @randy khan: I’m curious what he found to hang himself with.

    Prison authorities always boast that what they do is Science. No bedsheets or shoelaces, etc. for suicidal inmates. I could understand if he managed to find some surface to slash his wrists with. But he hanged himself.

    (or “hung himself” as the professional journalists are saying)

  159. 159.

    randy khan

    @germy:

    He had clothes. You probably can make a serviceable noose from a pair of pants, and it doesn’t have to be perfect.

  160. 160.

    B.B.A.

    Vince Foster is trending on Twitter… really?

    I’m no fan of the Clintons, I think the party should’ve thrown them under the bus 20 years ago… but really? Vince frickin’ Foster?

  161. 161.

    Aleta

    Requesting permission to speak Conspiracy:
    May 2018 obit in Palm Beach Post:
    “Joseph Recarey, a former Palm Beach detective … died Friday, May 25, 2018, after a brief illness. He was 50.”

    Very good interview with him (which was not published until Dec 2018 in Seattle Times) about his work against Epstein and in identifying and interviewing victims; and about how the plea happened. (He speaks about Krischer and (lead state prosecutor on the case) Assistant State Attorney Lanna Belohlavek) in this interview.) Includes what he said about his interactions with Dershowitz and some info on that from the Herald. Also some info about Starr.

    He and his partner began speaking to the media about the case, earlier in 2018.
    Quotes from the police report about his work were linked in 2006 in Smoking Gun.

  163. 163.

    trollhattan

    Speaking of Dersh, can anybody account for OJ’s whereabouts last night. Also, has the prison perhaps recently hired an old, old Russian masseuse?

    Favors owed and such.

  164. 164.

    lurker dean

    not to go all Q but yup..

    if you’re surprised that jeffrey epstein killed himself last night, imagine how surprised he must have been— hell (@swearsayer) August 10, 2019

  165. 165.

    Doug R

    @NotMax:

    One (lesser) question now is who will play Epstein in the cable TV movie*?

    More important, who in his right mind would agree to?

    *C’mon. Sex and nubile teens. Do ya really think it won’t be announced as in production?

    Rob Lowe.

  167. 167.

    Another Scott

    Twitter:

    WhatFreshHellIsThisHat @Popehat

    Americans will always find it easier to accept elaborate conspiracy theories than accept than the way the system treats people is freakishly reckless and inhuman.

    6:36 AM – 10 Aug 2019

    Not all, of course, but too many.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  169. 169.

    Formerly disgruntled in Oregon

    @B.B.A.:

    the party should’ve thrown them under the bus 20 years ago

    You may remember how well that worked for Al Gore, when he tried it 19 years ago…

  170. 170.

    Chyron HR

    If only the massive Republican investigation into Bill Clinton’s sex life hadn’t completely overlooked his child molestation. Seems like a pretty big thing for Ken Starr to miss, but oh well!

  171. 171.

    Quinerly

    @JPL: I know. I have heard a president has a lot to deal with. Sad he has to have this additional worry. ?

  172. 172.

    Bill Arnold

    @A Ghost To Most:

    Occam’s Razor is useful in the absence of further evidence.

    Occam’s Razor suggests that it is a very plausible hypothesis that one of the many (other) rich pedophiles that Epstein had dirt on arranged to have him dead. Either allowed suicide (e.g. bribes or threats or both) or made to look like suicide, perhaps with cameras inexplicably not recording if there were cameras.
    This is not a normal case. Many rich and powerful (and possibly psychopathic) pedophiles are involved.

  173. 173.

    Mike in NC

    Still in Bergen, Norway but the weather turned sunny and delightful. People went ashore to boost the local economy. We spent all of our Pounds before leaving the UK and I donated my last Euro coins to a local charity. Wife bought a bunch of stuff to give to her friends.

    Already thinking about our next cruise in a couple of years: Barcelona to Venice sounds very appealing.

  175. 175.

    Fleeting Expletive

    In addition to all the rest of the insanity, this is one hell of a distraction from the El Paso and Dayton racist murderers and their WH cheerleader/ Nothing at all to see here, folks.

  177. 177.

    Quinerly

    MSNBC reporting that there is nowhere to hang yourself in a cell. Says high profile people watched. For example, guards check on Bill Cosby every 15 mins. Who else is listening to Joy Reid?

  178. 178.

    SFAW

    @germy:

    or “hung himself” as the professional journalists are saying

    That goes a long way toward explaining why “journalism” today is so fucked up.

  180. 180.

    Bill Arnold

    @Dorothy A. Winsor:

    The hashtag “ClintonBodyCount” is trending on twitter. Hillary did it!

    That’s just so weird. Bill Clinton had (has?) his kinks but as far as we know, they involve adult females.

  181. 181.

    germy

    off topic, but

    Actor Armie Hammer criticizes Marvel Entertainment Chairman Isaac “Ike” Perlmutter for his continued support of Donald Trump. The recent news of Equinox and SoulCycle owner billionaire Stephen Ross’ upcoming Hamptons fundraiser for the the President’s re-election bid has caused their patrons to boycott the companies. And in light of this news, Hammer reminded everyone that Perlmutter is also a staunch supporter of Trump. He famously donated $1 million to Trump’s wonder veterans initiative prior to being elected. His wife, Laura, was also a member of Trump’s inauguration committee.

    Perlmutter immigrated from Israel to the United States and worked his way up on the corporate ladder. He previously held jobs at Revco, Coleco and Remmington before joining Avi Arad, Ron Perelman and Carl Icahn in taking over the troubled Marvel Comics.

    https://screenrant.com/marvel-armie-hammer-ike-perlmutter-trump/

  182. 182.

    Frankensteinbeck

    @Bill Arnold:
    Damn near every explanation is plausible. Suicide, murder by cell mate, suicide with guards not bothering to stop him, suicide with guards not bothering to stop him because they were bribed, assassination – none of them seem farfetched in a situation like this, so who knows?

  185. 185.

    Another Scott

    @Bill Arnold: Um, wouldn’t it (hypothetically) make more sense to try to keep one’s head down, have an excellent lawyer on retainer, be prepared to battle in the courts for years, rather than try to (help) kill him? Murder conspiracies have many moving parts and many, many ways of going wrong. (E.g. your average billionaire child rapist isn’t going to know Epstein’s guards, or someone who knows the guards, especially on short notice…) Why risk additional legal jeopardy? And why not assume that someone else would be working on the dirty deed? (“Why would I kill him, Rowland. I thought you were going to kill him?”)

    FWIW.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  187. 187.

    janesays

    @Bill Arnold: Clinton apparently had some ties to Epstein in the 1990s and early 2000s. Epstein visited the White House several times in the 1990s, and was at a fundraising dinner with Clinton in 1995. In the early 2000s, Clinton flew on Epstein’s private jet at least 4 times (according to Clinton’s own press secretary at the time), and possibly as many as 27 times.

  188. 188.

    Coloradoblue

    I’ve been saying since his arrest that he would never go to trial. I’m just sorry I was right.

  189. 189.

    Quinerly

    Lisa Bloom is in a lather. Doesn’t want his Estate to sue the prison.
    (Joy Reid’s show)

  193. 193.

    janesays

    @Baud: Oh, I don’t think the Clintons had anything to do with this. Just pointing out that there was a known association between Clinton and Epstein.

  194. 194.

    TS (the original)

    @janesays:

    Clinton flew on Epstein’s private jet at least 4 times (according to Clinton’s own press secretary at the time), and possibly as many as 27 times.

    The 27 has been debunked by the Clintons. The 4 trips were in relation to the Clinton Foundation. Only ever saw this discussed once – obviously the media will never believe the truth about the Clintons.

  195. 195.

    Baud

    @janesays:

    Gotcha. Unfortunately, too many people turn off their thinking skills when it comes to the Clintons. Reality needs constant defense.

  198. 198.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    Am I the only one who smells a rat?

    Me too,..

    But, it sounded like dickless there though he was the Master of the Universe so I can see him killing himself to avoid going to trail like a little person.

  202. 202.

    hueyplong

    We let Goering kill himself in a situation in which everyone knew he wanted to do it and procedures were supposedly in place to prevent it.

    If I were a betting person, I’d put a small amount on “rich guy who wanted to off himself made one individual guard a monetary promise no one could easily refuse.”

    Lots of rich assholes are relieved now, which disappoints me greatly. No doubt more are RWNJs than aren’t, because that’s how the uber rich demographic breaks out. Their only worry now is being outed as assholes for their Trumpian donations.

    On the positive front, there are a few vulnerable 13 year old girls who will now never know who Epstein was.

  203. 203.

    Elizabelle

    Wow. Just checked in. The Ghislaine Maxwell court documents just dropped yesterday.

    Now to catch up on the thread.

  208. 208.

    Bill Arnold

    @Gravenstone:

    It will also put to the test the frequent assertions here that he had a ‘deadman switch’ to dump incriminating information if something happened to him. Guess we’ll all see in the coming days.

    Yes, well maybe, if there is incriminating information that the authorities don’t already have. From accounts of raids his opsec wasn’t very good.
    If the authorities have most of the relevant information, then the hypothetical powerful murderer(s) would just need to worry about his testimony since they could count on the physical evidence being suppressed or lost in a fire and sprinkler deluge or whatever. And by murder, the means include “allowing a suicide” (and perhaps also encouraging it) through apparent incompetence, mistakes, broken equipment, whatever.

    I hate this shit. The extent to which the upper reaches of our political/power classes are so infested with rich male pedophiles was a rude awakening. Expect more bodies.

  209. 209.

    janesays

    @TS (the original): I don’t think Bill Clinton had anything to do with Epstein’s death, and I don’t assume there was anything nefarious about Clinton’s relationship with Epstein. But trying to pretend like there was never any relationship between the two men is just willfully stupid.

  212. 212.

    Immanentize

    This was not a relief for Dershowotz, rather a warning.

    Let us count his TV appearances in upcoming days.

  216. 216.

    Bill Arnold

    @randy khan:

    And “suicide watch” does not mean there’s someone outside your cell at all times – there aren’t enough guards to do that.

    In a psych hospital it means exactly that. I just asked someone. (Though they did it a few decades ago.) Boring work. You sit, and watch the patient. No no book, no entertainment. Just watch.
    Personally, I think we should treat all suicides in jail/prison as murder unless there is video evidence otherwise.

  217. 217.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @Mike in NC:

    Can’t wait to see your pictures in an upcoming “On the Road” series. Am interested in the cruise you just took around the British Isles. Do you mind sharing the name of the cruise line and the specific description of this particular cruise?

  219. 219.

    trollhattan

    @Renie:
    [Waves to guards] “Hi guys, I’m totally fine! Really, it was just a bad patch, that strangulation thing, but everything is good now. A-okay. Nothing to see here, fellas.”

    “Okay man, here are your shoelaces and that overhead pipe we took out earlier. The cameras, they’re gone,”

    Something like that, I assume.

  220. 220.

    LanceThruster

    I’m seeing this viewed through partisan prisms on all platforms, saying it’s all for the benefit of Trump or Clinton, depending on loyalties.

    People, please! Isn’t there enough elite corrupt perversion from behind the shadows for everyone?

  221. 221.

    SFAW

    I think it’s outstanding that part of this discussion has migrated to Bill Clinton’s “involvement” with Epstein, and we’re now counting the number of times he flew on Epstein’s jet, and parsing various other aspects.

    I’m also hoping that Q can check in, to give us the REAL skinny.

  223. 223.

    Bill Arnold

    @Renie:

    NBC reporting Epstein was no longer under a suicide watch. how was that possible?

    If true, it means that the authorities were no longer concerned about preventing him from killing himself.

  225. 225.

    SFAW

    @Chyron HR:

    If only the massive Republican investigation into Bill Clinton’s sex life hadn’t completely overlooked his child molestation. Seems like a pretty big thing for Ken Starr to miss, but oh well!

    Probably the same investigators who overlooked Hitlary’s involvement with the Benghazi “protesters” — actually, her highly-trained assassins.

  226. 226.

    TS (the original)

    @janesays: Just stop repeating RW attacks on the Clintons

    Calling me “willfully stupid” because I prefer NOT to repeat Clinton conspiracy theories is wilfully RW talk.

    @janesays: I’m not – you are just repeating again and again RW attacks on the Clintons

  227. 227.

    B.B.A.

    @SFAW: In the interests of equal time, I will reiterate that Trump is a serial child rapist and should spend the rest of his life in prison.

  228. 228.

    TS (the original)

    @SFAW:

    I think it’s outstanding that part of this discussion has migrated to Bill Clinton’s “involvement” with Epstein

    Definitely outstanding & I am wilfully ignorant because I hit back against the commenter who keeps bringing up the subject

  229. 229.

    janesays

    @JPL: That would explain a lot, because there were several individual flights clustered together over a few days where Clinton’s name appeared. According to the manifest filed by an attorney of one of Epstein’s accusers in a civil suit, it shows Clinton flew on Epstein’s plane on five separate occasions: January 9, 2002, March 19-21, 2002, July 13, 2002, August 21, 2002, and November 4-9, 2003.

  230. 230.

    LanceThruster

    “Let all the poisons that lurk in the mud hatch out.”

    Claudius – “I, Claudius”

    :—–:

    Bartleby, the Power Elite Scrivener – “I would prefer not to.”

  231. 231.

    janesays

    @TS (the original): What rightwing attacks have I made against the Clintons? I don’t think Clinton had anything to do with Epstein’s death. I don’t think Clinton had sex with underage girls on Epstein’s plane or did anything illegal with Epstein. Acknowledging that Clinton flew on Epstein’s plane on a number of occasions is not a “rightwing attack” – it is a statement of fact. Trying to pretend like it didn’t happen – when there is court documented evidence that it did – looks stupid.

  232. 232.

    Just One More Canuck

    @JPL: Here in Canada, his death wouldn’t stop civil suits from going ahead (don’t know about the US) – there could still be a lot of concerned people out there

  233. 233.

    Bill Arnold

    @A Ghost To Most:

    That is not the simplest explanation.

    True that, sorry. The point is that the priors in this are not typical; he had a large number of rich and powerful men concerned about being exposed by him directly or indirectly, so the odds of foul play were significantly above the typical levels. Some subset would prefer to stay low and try to ride it out, but some probably felt otherwise, weren’t thinking rationally, whatever. Whether any of them acted is the current question.
    Anyway, soon as I saw this news on the news.google.com feed this AM, was dreading the rest of the day, with shifts as new info-bits emerge publicly.
    There will be so much of this. Your take included, which we will also see and perhaps be dominant on the right, as the “rational take”. Which it is, except that it downplays the background of a considerably large number of powerful worried enemies.

  234. 234.

    sukabi

    Interesting that death is accepted at face value, but manner of death isn’t.

    If you’re going to speculate how about this: he got an injection of a paralytic and was wheeled out “dead”, free and clear to resume his life outside the US.

  237. 237.

    TS (the original)

    @janesays: I don’t care what you do or don’t think. Anyone that discusses the Clintons in regard to Epstein’s death is repeating RW attacks. Got to be a troll

  238. 238.

    hueyplong

    Where I live, you always have lots of RWNJ acquaintances, through work if nowhere else.

    When I read posts here that parallel the substantive content of emails in my inbox, it’s pretty easy to draw conclusions. Maybe not with 100% accuracy, but a number in the 90s fits.

  239. 239.

    Chris Johnson

    @Frankensteinbeck:

    The conservative base’s reaction to Epstein has been that Bill Clinton flew to the island once and Trump kicked Epstein out of his golf course for hitting on a rich patron’s daughter, ergo it is really the Democrats that are in trouble when the pedophile revelations come out.

    I daresay someone’s already mentioned it, but we’ve already seen action on 4Chan to begin pushing the ‘Trump kicked Epstein out’ narrative, very much as a coordinated talking point. So that one’s a cover story from the word go, from very specific sources.

  240. 240.

    Chris Johnson

    @Betty Cracker:

    I mean, I can well believe Epstein wanted to kill himself; I hope he hated himself enough to wish for death since he was a loathsome piece of shit.

    Nobody that loathsome hates themselves as much as that. He might have hated being caught, or been afraid of what would happen next, but that kind of person? To him, he’s the hero of the story. Unto death. Which most likely is what happened, as those he worked for wouldn’t have any reason to continue to protect him, and LOTS of reason to use him as an example to the others.

  245. 245.

    kindness

    If the autopsy report says he ‘jumped’ through a 2″ plate glass window from the 40th floor and fell to his death…..well then yea, I didn’t know he had dirt on Putin.

  246. 246.

    StringOnAStick

    @Kay: My late and gone way too soon BIL was a CO for 5 years and loved it. I’m thankful for the health insurance once he was diagnosed, but other than that I could tell it was hardening him as a person. He was at a minimum security prison and he said most of the inmates were no problem, but the real assholes were at least half of the other CO’s, and usually the longer they’d been a CO, the bigger a power tripping lazy bastard they were.

    My younger sister does EEOC work for a state prison system. She says the rise in hate crimes since tRUMP was elected is obvious, both between the prisoners and also by the CO’s.

  247. 247.

    Ruckus

    Read about half the comments and no one asked the questions.
    What exactly is a suicide watch supposed to do?
    Are they supposed to remove any item that can be used from the cell, like a blanket or clothing?
    Yes in theory the jail wants him alive for the trial. Do they actually care?
    And really how did anyone think this was going to end?
    I know that we have a warped sense of what jail is like, most of us never having been there. I’ve only been there around an empty holding cell, as someone working in a minor law enforcement capacity – shore patrol. I still have no idea what it’s like as a prisoner and no idea what it’s like putting someone inside or having to deal with them, it never happened while I was working.
    I’m betting it was suicide. This is a guy that from all reports was the center of a major sex for sale/empowerment gig and while it would take someone with no regard for his victims to do this for years, what he got out of it was apparently a fancy life and money. And all of that was gone the moment he was arrested because he was known by way too many powerful people for his work, way too many victims (yes one is too many – but it seems there were lots and lots more than one), and it went on for a long time. Too much evidence to ignore, too much evidence for him to get away with it, he was going through probably more than one nasty trial and was likely to never see freedom from jail nor any monied life ever again. And no one was going to stand up for him when it counted, he did half his work well, rich and powerful have much to spend in the first place but way too much to lose defending him.

  248. 248.

    J R in WV

    @Mai Naem mobile:

    I honestly don’t know what RWNJs will do when Bill and Hillary pass on.

    They won’t believe they are dead… even if there’s an open funeral, millions of people pass by to say goodbye. All part of the grand conspiracy to escape their due punishment for all the crimes they were never indicted for.

  249. 249.

    SFAW

    @TS (the original):

    I don’t care what you do or don’t think. Anyone that discusses the Clintons in regard to Epstein’s death is repeating RW attacks. Got to be a troll

    On the plus side, he/she did NOT remind us of Hillary’s murder (with her bare hands) of poor Vince Foster. And as far as the “I didn’t EXPLICiTLY SAY that Bill was a pedophile, but I think it’s curious, don’t you, that Bill met with Loretta Lynch Epstein, and who knows WHAT they discussed?” — well, he/she is “just sayin’,”

    Now, don’t you feel bad about imputing impure motives to her/him? If not — well, I’ll feel bad for the two of us.

  250. 250.

    Annie

    @David Anderson:

    FWIW, I agree with you. Epstein had plenty of motivation to kill himself, including the fact that questions are coming up about how he made his money.

    Even more than life in prison, I would think someone like that would hate public humiliation.

    Also I’m a court clerk and a lot of people have accused me of conspiracy when they lost their cases. They can’t phone the judges directly but since i deal with the public they can call me. That’s taught me to steer clear of conspiracy theories til there’s some evidence.

    Also the phrase “mentioned in the Epstein papers” is guaranteed to raise suspicions where there’s no evidence. What were these papers? What did that “mention” actually say? “Met George Mitchell at lunch, he said he had other plans the weekend I invited him”?

  251. 251.

    J R in WV

    @Aleta:

    “Joseph Recarey, a former Palm Beach detective … died Friday, May 25, 2018, after a brief illness. He was 50.”

    That’s REALLY young! Getting rid of witnesses, huh?

    I can speak conspiracy too…

  254. 254.

    SFAW

    @J R in WV:

    Here’s the real conspiracy — how did this thread die, just as I posted a conspiracy thought?

    Another one of Hitlary’s killings, no doubt.

  255. 255.

    Tehanu

    @Rand Careaga:

    “So do I—and I think he’s got my script!”

    If we had upvotes, I’d upvote this for the Firesign ref.

    As for Epstein … well, prisoners in Putin’s jails die in the same way all the time. So the US is now even worse IMHO because the Russians don’t hold themselves up as the shining city on the hill and moral exemplar to the world.

  256. 256.

    Procopius

    @Mike R:

    Given that he would never see the outside again it is possible he did it himself.

    I don’t think there is any certainty he would have gotten a long sentence. Probably, sure, but then Trump probably would have pardoned him. After all, Trump said, “He’s a lot of fun to be with.” You’re right about he should have been more closely monitored, though. He was reported to have been found unconscious in his cell with injuries to his neck a couple weeks ago. The Bureau of Prisons claimed he was on suicide watch. I wonder if there was a surveillance camera in his cell. What they need is to release a detailed narrative of how this came about, along with video footage from the camera. Instead I’d be willing to wager a small sum that we will be told they can’t release any information due to an ongoing investigation, and five years from now the investigation will still be “ongoing.” Certainly the warden of the Metropolitan Corrections Center needs to be fired, and his bank records closely examined, and whoever is the head of the Bureau of Prisons should be called to testify before some oversight committee.

  257. 257.

    Procopius

    @brettvk: An excellent comment. I remember that the Soviets knew very well that they were getting propaganda, except maybe for weather reports, and even those they couldn’t trust. The Russian word for Truth is Pravda. The Russian word Izvestia means News. There was a saying (probably apocryphal), “There is no truth in Pravda, and there is no news in Izvestia.” Americans mostly are only beginning to realize there is very little truth in the New York Fishwrap and not much, either, in the Bezos Shopper. I check the Tass web site from time to time, and it’s so boring it’s probably all true.

  258. 258.

    Blue raven

    I don’t Think he is dead.. that much money buys a lot of temp possibilities not to mention his ability to be very mobile..there is a real possibility that those “powerful friends” might also have had just as much motivation to keep him alive..br

  259. 259.

    Tom Thumb

    Who cares. Glad he’s dead. Less money going to a piece of shit to prosecute the obvious. The victims should split his millions.

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