Not that I have any say because WV will be voting after the primaries are basically over, but this:
Post caucus, Mayor Pete declared victory, team Sanders trashed Pete and the DNC, and Elizabeth Warren spent 20 minutes just bodying Trump and kicking him in the teeth repeatedly and then thanked her dog.
Which is why I like Warren.
— John Cole (@Johngcole) February 4, 2020
I mean, it was fucking beautiful:
More of this. It was almost as much fun as when she murdered Delaney in broad daylight:
Mmmmm.
debbie
She’s heads above anyone else still in the race. She doesn’t even look tired!
chopper
yeah, i’m in the same boat.
MattF
There’s no doubt that Trump underestimates Warren.
Baud
I think she’s the only potential nominee left that I could get excited about as the nominee, as opposed to the one I have to vote for.
mrmoshpotato
Couldn’t have put it better myself. And her caucus speech is great. I listened to it earlier.
trollhattan
Still pro-Liz and I’m ready to
pull the leverfill in the oval bubble for her next month. It’s a major slide downhill to reach #2.Eric U.
She’s my first choice too. I am comfortable with Biden, although the berniebots have really been attacking him recently. Also, I’m pretty sure that if they never release the Iowa results it would be in Biden’s best interests, but of course he’s making a fuss
mad citizen
Former Harris person, but totally agree on Warren being heads above the class. Just catching up on her wiki. No kids, second marriage since 1980. Bruce Mann, a legal history prof. Running as Elizabeth Mann would be awesome. David Mann is the main character is Spielberg’s Duel.
trollhattan
@MattF:
After all, she is a girl. Per the president* they have few uses and he’s certainly not a-skeert of any.
Betty Cracker
Really hoping this caucus shitshow gives Warren some momentum!
Darkrose
@trollhattan: Isn’t it cool to think that our votes will actually matter this time?
trollhattan
@mad citizen:
She has a daughter and son from marriage #1.
Elizabelle
Yea John. I have been Team Elizabeth Warren throughout (although a big fan of Kamala Harris too).
I’d like to see a Warren/Harris ticket, or Harris for Attorney General.
Have you noticed that Jen Rubin does not like EWarren at all? Dismisses her; won’t include her with the leading “boys.”
I think EWarren connects with voters, is great on middle class realities and consumer protection, and at least can formulate plans. Some will have to change, but it’s lovely to deal with someone who wants to get us to a better place.
I have never understood those who think she won’t do well with African American voters. Don’t they share a lot of the same concerns we all do? Healthcare, jobs, fairly administered financial markets, voter protection. Affordable education and job prep. The environment …
I think EWarren could have coattails too. Look at who’s been winning the elections, since 2017. People take the wrong lesson from Hillary’s run — she beat Trump by over 3 million votes. And would you bet hard money that the vote in the swing states was above board?
A woman can win.
the Conster
Polling at 9% with blacks with Super Tuesday looming. That’s… not good.
trollhattan
@Darkrose:
Sweet lord, yes! Not only am I excited for the March primary, it’s my kid’s first time voting. She’s not reading about history, she’s swimming in it.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Elizabelle:
She thinks Warren is too far to the left, most of the never-trumpers do. I believe Rubin has been a Klobuchar booster
pamelabrown53
@Betty Cracker:
Maybe because of the stellar way she handled that shit show as opposed to say Buttigeig, will help her. I hope it does: Elizabeth Warren is brilliant and beautiful from the inside out.
If she is the one most likely to beat Bernie on Super Tuesday, I’d be delighted to vote for her.
rp
@Baud: Exactly where I am.
Suzanne
Agreed. She’s my first choice right now, by a considerable margin.
I think Amy K. is my #2. I really want someone who brings minimal drama.
Maybe I feel this was because I just sorting through a box of old shit from the garage and I found some old pictures of my ex-husband, who is all in for Bernie and who brought too much drama into my life.
Mnemosyne
I like Warren but, yeah, her outreach to non-white voters has been seriously lacking. She talks a good talk, but they’re skeptical that she’s going to back it up with actual action. I think her close ties with Bernie are hurting her.
rp
To Cole’s point, she doesn’t seem like an entitled a-hole who thinks it’s all about her. That’s refreshing.
Elizabelle
@the Conster: I will take actual voting over a fucking poll any day of the week.
Also watching who shows up for events, and who can draw an excited crowd.
Polls, schmolls.
James E Powell
Do you all think she can get white women, no college to vote for her? What’s the best strategy for doing so? I’m thinking that that demo is our key to victory.
Baud
My preferencea aside, I don’t know how she breaks the youth cult that surrounds Bernie, and I don’t know where else she can gain votes from.
I’m sure she has a plan for that though.
Darkrose
@trollhattan: I’m also kind of psyched about the city council race. My current councilmember is good, but his challenger is also good, and both are focusing on homelessness. For the first time since moving here 16 (!) years ago, I’m actively interested in this.
Matt Smith
Warren just got the best grade on Essence’s Racial Justice Presidential Candidate Scorecard. I don’t think this is Black America’s #1 issue, but I still hope that a headline like that will get folks to give her a closer look. I believe that as people get a good look at her, she’ll win them over.
https://www.essence.com/news/politics/elizabeth-warren-2020-racial-justice-presidential-candidate-scorecard
@Suzanne: Exactly! That kind of no-drama vibe was something I loved about Obama, too. And FWIW, I don’t have a drama-ful ex who’s all in for Bernie.
trollhattan
@James E Powell:
DNC convention ends July 16, leaving a little under four months to clear the air and get folks mobilized. All while preventing Trump from blowing the joint up.
Anything’s possible.
Jerzy Russian
I would prefer she that she kicked Trump in the nuts. However, I recognize that I can’t get everything I want in a single candidate, so I will settle for the kicks in the teeth.
Also, too: who is a good dog? Bailey is a good dog!
the Conster
@Mnemosyne:
Her path to taking on Trump goes through Sanders because he’s in her same *progressive* lane. You can’t take down Trump if you won’t take down Sanders who is toxic AF. I think the only ones who seem to really get that are Biden and Bloomberg.
MJS
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I’m glad the Never Trumpers are speaking up, but I’m getting more than a little tired of their know-it-all attitudes. They know oh-so-well what it will take to beat Trump. Of course, this is all new found, untested knowledge, because they sure as shit didn’t know how to beat Trump when he was steamrolling the Republican “deep bench” in 2016.
Study Pantload, the emotionally unavailable unicorn
@mad citizen: Irma Gherd, you don’t see references to that just every day! I was a little kid when they showed that on the TV. But I remember it was intense, and I remember the critics gushing over the young Spielberg, saying that kid was going to go places. I was, like, all of eight at the time, but I distinctly remember the deserved hype.
debbie
@MattF:
He thinks she’ll wilt every time he brings up her ancestry. I’d almost bet she’s got a few killer retorts saved for when he does.
nyrobbin
You and me both. She’s the only one I gave money to, starting when she was the first candidate to come out for impeachment. Plus I have a Billionaire’s Tears mug.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Waleed Shahid of the “Justice Democrats” on MSNBC attacking Biden for undermining the process and I’m ready for our new dolphin overlords
ETA: Oh fuck, sounds like they’ve signed Shahid on for the duration
@MJS: that was part of my point, that it’s really not surprising the Mitt Romney fan-girl Jen Rubin doesn’t like Warren.
Elizabelle
WRT Sanders: EWarren and Sanders do not draw from the same pool of voters. She and Kamala Harris sort of do.
Do you want the blowhard or the woman who has taught and written on the subject, for years and years and years? And can address voters without shouting at them?
In another leading democracy, EWarren would not be scarily liberal. She would be mainstream. It’s our country that has gotten pulled off the rails since St. Reagan.
Grow up, America. Elect a qualified woman as President.
Baud
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Did Biden hack the app?
Kraux Pas
Does creating an entire federal organization dedicated to consumer protection prior to holding any office count?
debbie
@James E Powell:
Between now and November, the GOP and Trump will be discussing Medicare and SS cutbacks, so yeah, I’d bet more than a few of them would support her.
Elizabelle
@Kraux Pas: Yup. I don’t understand why Mnemo can’t get that.
Thank you.
trollhattan
@Darkrose:
Agree that there’s positive movement by the city council on several fronts. He’s somewhat polarizing but I think Darryl has advanced the city’s belief that some problems can be confronted and fixed. It’s refreshing.
Now if we can only do something about the county, and that sheriff of ours!
Baud
@Elizabelle:
I agree that they are not as overlapping as one would presume. But she needs to gain voters from somewhere, and young progressives seem increasingly drawn to Bernie’s orbit.
trollhattan
@Baud:
You know how it is with Onion Joe and the cybers. He can’t be trusted!
zhena gogolia
@the Conster:
If she would start really attacking Sanders I would be more sanguine about her. He’s vulnerable, for God’s sake!
trollhattan
@Kraux Pas:
Heh, good one. Warren accomplished more before entering political office than certain Wilmers have in their entire careers. “He thought of it first!” isn’t a compelling sign slogan.
debbie
@Baud:
Warren needs to go one on one with Sanders. They should compare their plans for everything. When the youngs see how lacking in specifics Sanders’ are, they should be persuaded to switch to Warren.
kindness
I am soooo happy not to be on Twitter. Just looking at the trolls under your tweed frys my ass and it isn’t even my tweet. I’d be spending far too much time blocking people.
Mandalay
@Elizabelle:
Possibly because of her support for Palestinian rights, and her refusal to kiss Israel’s ass.
trnc
Let this serve as a reminder that she is a genuine Never-Trumper, but she isn’t a democrat.
Gin & Tonic
Someone will have to prove that Warren is not a B-J reader.
Dorothy A. Winsor
One of the things I like about Warren is that she seems to like working and learning. She enjoys it.
pamelabrown53
@Mnemosyne:
Her lack of traction with non white voters is a huge obstacle. I think she screwed herself by being Bernie-lite.
The close association with Bernie and M4All endorsement than equivocation, scared not only the centrists,but the pragmatists.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Kraux Pas: good question. Why don’t you go down to South Carolina and canvas for Warren among African-American Dems, making that point, and get back to us with your findings? We could go fund you a bus ticket. Round trip, even.
NotMax
Was slightly taken aback (but only slightly) when soon to be 92-year-old Mom told me last weekend that her ideal ticket, if the election were held today – is Klobuchar/Patrick.
Betty Cracker
If Biden got hammered in Iowa as badly as is rumored, it could help Warren a lot. From what I’ve read, she’s got her own core group of enthusiastic voters, and she’s everyone else’s second choice.
Maybe she knows what she’s doing, holding fire on Sanders. If it’s a three-way race between Warren, Sanders and a listing SS Biden, she could credibly position herself as the “unity” candidate.
Baud
@NotMax:
WTF? I barely know who Patrick is.
Kraux Pas
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I posed my question to the person claiming Warren hasn’t backed up her proposals with action. Not ambient lame trollish assholes like yourself.
And if I’m going to volunteer, I’ll do it closer to home, thanks. NH votes next week and MA and RI if she makes it that far.
Martin
@Elizabelle: Well, more notably, Warren is a strong capitalist. Not the GOP oligarch bullshit, but a realistic ‘here’s where capitalism works really well, lets not fuck with that, and here’s where capitalism doesn’t work well, let’s not ruin the whole thing by forcing it to to do things it can’t do’.
That’s a pretty profound difference from Sanders.
trollhattan
@NotMax:
Heh, nice hot take from mom. :-)
Bumper-sticker ready: “Klobuchar-Patrick: because Mom said so”
beef
I tend to evaluate candidates by how I think they’d do in Pennsylvania. I don’t care too much about the hypothetical policy differences between left and center; that shit’s all up to Congress anyways. What matters is whether or not they can get to 270. That seems to turn on winning PA, which in turn depends on getting urban black and suburban female voting blocks to turn out in massive numbers.
My guess is that Warren does pretty well among suburban female, but I’m worried that she could fall short among urban blacks. I’m no expert here, but my two cents is this: Warren’s brand is generic problem solver, but generic problem solvers have often neglected the black community or solved the wrong problem. They need to know that she gets it.
Elizabelle
@Martin: Yes. She understands the dangers of predatory capitalism, and sees where better regulation can strengthen it for all of us.
Also that “the market” is not likely the best provider of healthcare. It’s a different animal.
There are things that capitalism can do well, and things for which you need a strong government (as in the other leading democracies) — cut out the profit-snagging middlemen.
Wall Street is not Main Street (or even, your street). Do not conflate the two.
Martin
I just want to say I’m impressed that Warren has kept up her selfie policy and is able to maintain that energy and cheerfulness throughout it. It seems almost superhuman.
I think cheerfulness in a leader is seriously underrated.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
She didn’t “claim” that, she offered it as a possible perception that would explain African-American Dems’ apparent reluctance to support Warren. I must say your hostile response to my offer to help you make a difference is not great for party unity.
germy
WV Blondie
I was certain that was Cole shouting “You won!” about 30 seconds into her speech! And yes, like him I live in WV so my primary vote won’t have any effect, but I still hope to get to vote for her both in the primary and in November.
Martin
@Elizabelle: I think she has a handle on that better than any candidate I’ve ever seen. Puts her at the top of my list right now.
Mandalay
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Or you could heed Cole’s advice and stop being a fucking dick all the time.
germy
TomatoQueen
One of the many things missing from the present White House is a First Dog. Bailey would be a first class First Dog, because he is a Very Good Boy indeed.
Also, too, see the long list of accomplishments over many years, including the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, her great triumph (should it survive), all of which required persistence and determination; her intelligence and creativity, and her devotion to public service, which is a real thing and a rare quality. For another way of viewing her, I recommend strongly her segments in the PBS special about Hamilton, during which a number of public figures were interviewed at length for their appraisals of Hamilton’s many roles and influence (so you get fucking Geithner and Hank and GWB ffs, and some professors, including Elizabeth, who is the best of all of them at appreciating what Hamilton did, why we should have regard for him, and why he is valuable today.) in so many areas. She’s a born teacher, as was/is Obama, and that’s a personal quality I value. It seems to me Elizabeth is the only one of the lot who can teach you why democracy is in danger, what you as a citizen can do to help, and in words of one syllable while making you feel smart and engaged. We must have her.
Crawling over broken glass, of course.
Kraux Pas
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Neither is that chip on your shoulder. Offering to ship me off halfway across the country was not something you did out of sincerity or kindness.
Mandalay: And thank you.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Martin:
I’m always baffled when I see people describe her as “angry”. She strikes me as the dorkily happy warrior. I confess I roll my eyes a bit when she hits the word “fight”, but I pay much closer attention to what the candidates say than the normies
JPL
@trollhattan: What about Booker or Castro?
Mrs. D. Ranged in AZ
@zhena gogolia: IDK if attacking Bernie too harshly is a smart move for Warren. Since her positions are closer to Bernie’s than anyone else’s that’s the natural place for those voters to go once (if) Bernie drops out. Now, I know a good percentage of them won’t vote for anyone but Bernie, but enough of them will vote for someone else and that needs to be Warren. I think her smartest play is to keep emphasizing that she hold similar positions to his BUT really play up how much she has accomplished. Bernie has hardly done anything in all his years of “service”.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@JPL: I can’t stand Booker, but many of the things I don’t like about him would make him a good complement for Warren. As for Castro… meh. I really hope people were wrong about their road trip of a couple weeks ago being a test run for a national ticket
Miss Bianca
Still pro-Liz myself, tho’ would be happy enough with Joe as my second choice.
Elizabelle
@Martin: All for cheerfulness. And Bailey!
Kraux Pas
@Mrs. D. Ranged in AZ:
Bernie + a clue > Bernie
Ruckus
I’m not revealing who I like or am voting for because I am a jinx.
I have noticed that a lot of people say that Harris was their first choice and yet she polled on the low side and few of us donated money. Is it that there were too many choices and most of them hadn’t shown that they weren’t ready, or never would be?
EmbraceYourInnerCrone
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: She’s a female Democratic politician. I would not be surprised if she and Amy Klobuchar both get interrupted by both reporters and other candidates, more than the male candidates. Welcome to 2020. Same as it ever was.
chopper
@Kraux Pas:
she didn’t say warren hasn’t backed up her proposals with actions. she said many black voters are skeptical of the fact. which would explain her low poll numbers among that part of the electorate.
Kent
Of all the remaining candidates, Warren is my first choice and Klobuchar is my second. It’s not really even about ideology but competence. Reasons:
I think Trump is uniquely vulnerable to strong women. Pelosi owns his ass more than any male politician I can think of. Strong women scare him. He has the male dominance bitch-slap thing perfected that allowed him to cut through the GOP primary field like butter and absolutely cow the GOP Senate and everyone else into acting like whipped dogs. He doesn’t know how to deal with strong women. Hillary beat him, don’t forget. And I think it is telling that he is afraid to have any strong women anywhere near him in government. His only two female cabinet appointees are to minor positions and are nepotism hires anyway (Mrs. McConnell, Elaine Chao, and Betsy DeVoss. I think either Warren or Klobuchar would really put him off his sexist male dominance game.
Big legislative initiatives like M4A is going to be about 5% of the job of the next President, and not even that if McConnell keeps the Senate. 95% of the job of the next president will be consumed by two tasks:
Give me Warren or Klobuchar please. I’ll be happy with either. Although I think Warren is the sharper and more energetic of the two. They are both head and shoulders above all the other choices.
Martin
So, here’s why I think the Iowa Dems message was muddled last night.
There are basically two apps in any process like this – one that the precincts use to submit data and one that the party uses to organize that data into a single result.
The submission process suffered from late roll out, lack of training, and an installation process that would have resulted in me saying ‘hell no’. The other app, the data aggregation app is where the bug was and presented incorrect results to the party.
Surely they were aware of some of the problems with submission, but at the time of the statement I think their focus was on their reports being fucked up, and not immediately knowing if it was bad data in the system or bad reporting of that data. By all accounts the data is accurate, and they need to redo the reporting stuff. For 1800 elements, you can pretty much bang that out in Excel in an hour or two. Not a big deal, but embarrassing. The news outlets couldn’t see any of that, but could see the submission problems. And because they had they app, they understaffed the phone lines. And because too much importance is put on this, that got the campaigns riled up and caused them to demand more and more time of the party who was struggling to put resources into getting results.
Anyway, this is a cycle I’m very familiar with in my previous job where you have limited resource to carry out large processes on behalf of a constituency large enough that if anything goes wrong, you will have to dedicate 100% of your resources just to front-line damage control, leaving nothing to actually fix the problem everyone is complaining about. The result is that you plan, plan, plan, plan and have contingencies for everything. It’s arguable if it’s more cost effective to do that than to just throw the necessary resources that would allow you to deal with a process problem on the fly, but usually once you know what your budget is, you’re forced to do it that way.
Mrs. D. Ranged in AZ
@Mnemosyne: I don’t understand why they think she hasn’t backed up her words with action. She’s accomplished way more than Bernie has. Or are you referring specifically to AA specific issues?
Her campaign has been very smart (in general) and so well organized, I’m betting that while she is in New Hampshire, she’ll have an advance team in SC doing the full court press on AA issues.
JPL
No comment!
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Ruckus:
for myself, that’s a lot of why I haven’t given money to any presidential candidate, I’ve been focusing my cash down-ticket
Roger Moore
@Kraux Pas:
That person wasn’t saying that Warren has failed to back up her proposals with actions in general. She was saying specifically that Warren has not done a lot to build trust with black voters. That process of building trust is really important for winning over a lot of minority voters. They don’t just want someone who has done good things for everyone; they want someone who has a track record of taking their specific concerns seriously.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Mandalay: well! such language!
pamelabrown53
@Betty Cracker:
Here’s the problem with what you posit. If past is prologue, there is no “unity” with too many BernieBros.
I think she needs to separate from Bernie and be willing to vet him, as in why and how she’s better than Bernie.
P.S. I hope she has a plan to improve her standing with AA voters?
Miss Bianca
@debbie: I’m not sure I buy that. Sanders, like Trump, has a cult following of folks who seem to think that Dear Leader’s SAYING the stuff they like to hear is more important than actually DOING the stuff they like to hear about.
I’m really tired of it myself. It makes me crazy that people who I think are really smart and politically-informed otherwise are just all like “BernieBernieBernie” and don’t actually pay any attention to the inconvenient truths of his accomplishments, or lack thereof.
Ruckus
@Martin:
Well now that we’ve seen the exact opposite of smart and cheerful it’s pretty easy to see which is better. But of course, nearly half the population likes hateful and bitter.
Mrs. D. Ranged in AZ
@chopper: I missed that part the first time I read it too. After the kerfluffle between Kraux Pas and Jim, I had to re-read it. So @Kraux Pas and @Jim, Foolish Literalist maybe stop fighting and call it a misunderstanding? Maybe Kraux misread Mnem’s statement like I did? And maybe Jim came to Mnem’s defense a little too quickly? Maybe play nicer in the sand box….
Or I can mind my own beeswax, STFU and STFD. YMMV.
Kent
Are you talking about the primary or general?
Do you think excitement about Warren would change in the black community if she had a black running mate? Maybe someone more working class
Maybe even a Val Demings or Hakeem Jeffries who both impressed me during the impeachment trial.
Sister Golden Bear
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
She’s a confident, assertive woman. By definition that makes us shrieking harpies. //
debbie
@chopper:
I’m skeptical of the skepticism. Maybe part of that skepticism is justification of love for Biden?
Kraux Pas
By raising that perception, Mnem implies both that she thinks that perception is true and that it is, in fact, the reason for her low poll numbers in that community.
I pointed out one good solid reason, one that exists among others, why that perception is not true.
And I’ll offer an alternative explanation for the low poll numbers. They prefer someone else. That doesn’t mean they reject her.
Miss Bianca
@Sister Golden Bear:
: )
How are you doing, btw?
germy
@pamelabrown53:
She shows up, meets face to face, speaks honestly and forcefully. Listens carefully to her audience. (That’s the most important thing: she listens.) Once AA voters see her in person (rather than in Iowa) I would hope her numbers go up.
the Conster
@pamelabrown53:
She’s been asked how she’s different from him, got flustered and said I’m with Bernie. WTF. What about his gun votes? His votes against immigration reform? She with him on those too? I don’t understand what she’s doing and reluctance about distancing herself from him. Fear of his supporters? MAGAs are just as bad.
I also note that her interview with Maddow a few weeks ago had her repeating that Trump voters voted for Trump because of how they’ve been left behind by the *elites*. It makes me crazy to hear any Dem say that. No, Liz, they’ve been voting for *law and order* and tax cuts for billionaires since Nixon. LBJ told us why they do. She’s a markets person, not a civil rights person. I don’t get it.
trollhattan
@JPL:
Dunno, I’m just a humble traveler in NotMax’s Mom’s world!
Marcopolo
Ah, Cole endorses!
Would have been worth more before Iowa. /s
As some of the jackaleriat are aware, I’ve been in the tank for Warren for about a year now. Very proud of the way she handled the mess last night.
I stillness think she has a very uphill slog to the nomination. Honestly, my past experience has been the person I’ve gotten behind in the D nomination process has never won the nominatIon—back to 1988. Here’s hoping for a first time.
As for her going after Sanders—don’t see it. For good or bad, I think she’s decided not to “attack” other folks in the race. And honestly, I don’t think there’s any way to peel much of Wilmer’s supporters off. It is Just their nature to be tribal & recalcitrant.
Anyhow, we’ll see how thing go but I expect to be able to vote for EW in MO in March & I think the odds of a brokered convention increased a little bit yesterday.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
MSNBC: Bloomberg is doubling his ad spending. Jesus wept.
Along with Mark Kelly, Cal Cunningham, Jaime Harrison and Gary Peters.
germy
@Marcopolo:
Yes, I think she’s been more about “This is what’s wrong. This is how I want to fix it” which I’d rather hear than attacks on other candidates (who aren’t trumpf)
Quinerly
OT… Trump just can’t keep his fingers out of anything. In all honesty, it could be worse: https://www.architecturalrecord.com/articles/14466-will-the-white-house-order-new-federal-architecture-to-be-classical
trollhattan
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Ironically, Bloomberg’s net worth is probably still climbing even with his campaign spending.
His march up the polls does inform us that you can in fact buy votes. I’m sure John Roberts is taking note (as if).
germy
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: campaigns are good for business. All that ad money being spent! No wonder each year the media wants them to last longer and longer and longer. And if someone like Harris drops out because she can’t keep up ($$) well….
Kent
What do you guys think of someone like Val Demings (impeachment manager) paired with Warren or Klobuchar or even Biden as VP? I’ve been reading about her after being impressed during impeachment.
and….
and best of all…
Badass all the way. And maybe help flip Florida?
Cacti
Cole in 1972:
Why I like McGovern as my first choice.
trollhattan
@Quinerly:
Good god. Do they have any idea how much it costs to dip a new building in gold?
germy
@Cacti:
McGovern would have been a fine president. Better than what we ended up with.
Brachiator
Good speech. Some of the early remarks sounded like she was introducing herself to all voters, with the biographical details. Interesting.
To all Democratic Party candidates. It is great to emphasize that Trump is corrupt and venal and vile.
But you also have to show that his policies and actions have failed. You have to attack the con, as well as the con man.
jeffreyw
Cacti
@germy: You can start that sentence with the name of every Dem general election loser.
germy
@Kent: I really like Demings. And I love the way she gives side-eye while she speaks at the impeachment hearing.
Miss Bianca
@Kent: You had me there with the endorsement until “Harley”. Indian, Beemer, Ducati, Rice Rocket, *anything* but a Harley!
Kent
One word…..W I S C O N S I N
You think maybe a Harley-riding black women might be able to bring out the vote in Milwaukee?
Ruckus
@Mrs. D. Ranged in AZ:
I think it’s more of a known quantity and quality with Joe. He was picked for VP by the first black president. That is a very big deal. And desires are not the same as expectations. If Joe starts stumbling I think EW will pick up black support. This is not a “standard” presidential election. This is a once in a country’s lifetime election. This one goes in the shitter, who the hell knows what will happen?
laura
@trollhattan: scott jones is vile filth and of the devil. Brother the younger has submitted bids for to homeless housing projects and will hopefully get deep into the housing first business. Hey to you too Darkrose! Glad to see you posting and hope that alls well with you.
debbie
@germy:
I believe I just heard a senior Biden advisor cite Joanie Ernst in her argument for Biden being the best candidate. ?
This was on NPR; unfortunately, the audio isn’t up yet.
joel hanes
@zhena gogolia:
If she would start really attacking Sanders
She, and all the Democrats, want to keep as many of the loosely-affiliated Sanders voters in the big tent if they can.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Brachiator:
Yup.
germy
@debbie:
Joni Ernst says impeaching Joe Biden was ‘just a hypothetical’
Ruckus
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
I was as well, hard to spend more than you’ve got in spare change laying around, after the last 11 years.
joel hanes
@germy:
Ayanna Presley will deliver a response to Trump’s SOTU address Tues
AOC has announced that she will not legitimize Trump by attending, and so she will not be present.
@germy:
Betty Cracker
@pamelabrown53: We’ll see how it shakes out, but if it comes down to a three-way race between Warren, Sanders and a tanking Biden, I think she’s got a shot. In my amateur estimation, Warren’s chance really depends on Biden under-performing, which he appears poised to do in Iowa.
My guess is that people’s perceptions about Biden’s electability kept him at the top of the polls despite tepid voter support and a lackluster campaign. If the “most electable” mythos is shattered in Iowa and blasted again in NH, Biden’s voters will scatter to either Sanders or Warren, and I think Warren is the more attractive choice.
Maybe I’m totally wrong, but that’s my read on it.
PS: Warren’s path in my scenario also depends on Buttigieg going nowhere, which can’t be reasonably inferred from the small amount of data coming out of Iowa. It looks more likely that he came in 2nd and Warren 3rd. But I think he’ll fizzle. Just my guess.
Jeffro
I love Warren but I still think Biden will limp along and win it. On the brighter side, Warren out there on the trail for the eventual nominee means she will still be kicking trumpov in the nuts for the next nine months.
the Conster
OK! This is what I’m talking about how to go after Sanders. Call him on his endless bullshit.
Go get ’em Joe.
Bernie’s been at M4All for 30 years, hasn’t moved it an inch.
the Conster
@Betty Cracker:
Iowa and NH won’t determine anything. Super Tuesday will. No one wins the primary without black women showing up to vote for them.
Mary G
Warren’s been working on African-American women under the radar for quite a while. ABL has endorsed her, and several other black women I follow on Twitter have been gradually warming up to her. Some Kamala fans were very hostile, mostly because Warren got a lot of media coverage by outlets that ignored Harris but seem to be mellowing. Just anecdotal, but if Uncle Joe continues to wilt, I can see Liz picking up a pretty good chunk of his voters because Bernie and Pete are deservedly not getting much love.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Betty Cracker: it doesn’t get mentioned much, but Biden’s lack of fund-raising is troubling here in the bloodless pragmatist caucus
Dorothy A. Winsor
Ruckus
@Sister Golden Bear:
The guys that think that women are all shrieking harpies think that because women are always yelling at them get the fuck away from them because they have no concept of a woman actual having real value, of being equal.
Baud
@the Conster:
Oh wow. Things getting interesting.
Cacti
@Jeffro: I think that might have been the case prior to Bloomberg.
But I think Bloomie’s media saturation campaign is pulling support from Biden, and the moderate vote will get diluted because of it.
Mary G
Eljai
Joan Walsh has a new piece out: Elizabeth Warren has a movement. You just don’t see it yet.
In one group, after people supporting non-viable candidates had to realign, this happened:
I think Liz really is a uniter with a superior ground game. And remember, Sanders boasted that he had the energy of the youngs and would bring new voters in to the movement. If that’s the case, they should have turned out in massive numbers last night, but it didn’t happen.
cokane
She’s definitely my first choice as president, but the matchup polling against Trump doesn’t make her look good contrasted against Biden or Sanders. I can only hope those numbers are just a reflection of lower name recognition.
Kent
@Baud: From the same twitter thread:
Baud
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
I’ve started warming to Biden but his performance in Iowa and with fundraising is worrisome.
At this point I’m half tempted to become a BenrieBro in order to jinx him for the sake of the country.
Miss Bianca
@Kent: You’d have to ask Omnes, being from Colorado I’d be more impressed if she rode a Quarter Horse, like the Cowgirls of Color.
Cacti
Because?
Baud
@Kent:
It’ll be such a mess if he ends up president.
the Conster
@Baud:
FINALLY a punch thrown. Sanders HATES to be confronted or asked tough questions. Those hands start wagging and he gets all red. It’s about fucking time SOMEONE brings a gun to a gun fight.
Archon
@joel hanes:
I think that argument is FAST coming to a head. Other campaigns better stop playing campaign game theory and start explaining why Bernie Sanders platform is political and economic nonsense or be prepared for him to be the nominee.
Jeffro
It’s looking like House Dems might be pulling off a slow, nearly complete boycott of the SOTU?
A half-empty chamber would send Orangemandias into a rage and make for great future campaign ads.
Maybe just Nancy slow-clapping behind him as he whirls around every 30 seconds?
The possibilities, oh the possibilities…
Butter Emails
I’m a little confounded by the comments that Warren is doing poorly with African Americans because of her close association with Sanders. Doesn’t Sanders have the 2nd highest level of support among African Americans?
Raven Onthill
Doesn’t she sound Presidential, though? She’s been my pick from the beginning, and the more I learn about her, the better I like her.
@Eric U.: She’s a long-time political opponent of Biden; why are you comfortable with both?
@the Conster: yes, her weakness with African-American voters is a problem. Any thoughts as to why?
@Baud: she needs to turn out women, too. Is sisterhood powerful enough?
Mary G
MomSense
@Baud:
You’re obviously not an East Coast Elite. This is good news for your campaign!
Cacti
@the Conster:
Joe also made the point that every non-Wilmer Dem candidate should be making re: “What’s the biggest difference between me and him?”
I’m a Democrat and he’s not.
Eljai
@Baud: I read that Biden did not bother to set up a ground game in Iowa. I don’t know why, but that was definitely a mistake in my book. Warren, Sanders and Buttigieg had canvassers. Klobuchar did too, but she got a later start.
Kent
@MomSense: Because what America has been missing all this time is the Junior Bain Capital guy since the senior one didn’t work out too well.
Baud
@Cacti:
Well, shit. I’m back to undecided.
the Conster
@Raven Onthill:
She hasn’t done anything for their communities and is a populist in the Sanders mold – economic equality her focus, not equality equality. Talks about party *elites*, without mentioning that the leaders of the Dem party are mostly women and POC, and her years of cultural appropriation when it suited her is a big one. Dissing Hillary and Obama while coddling Sanders and Michael Moore. White feminism. Lots of things go into it.
zhena gogolia
@trnc:
Well, at least she’s paid close attention to the impeachment trial, unlike most people around here.
Baud
@Kent: You talking about me?
Kent
He got in too late with too little money after all the experienced pros were already hired by the other leading candidates. At least that’s my guess. There are only so many talented Democratic operatives who know how to build up a ground game from scratch who are willing to live out of Iowa hotel rooms for 9 months.
Betty Cracker
@Jeffro: I’d love it if the Dems boycotted the SOTU altogether, but my husband says that would look petty. He seems to have a better idea of how political stuff looks to regular people than I do, so he’s probably right. Still, that foul orange pig defiled the Capitol with his lying, buffoonish legal team and craven toady co-conspirators in their sham trial. I say let them clap like trained seals in a half-empty chamber.
Chyron HR
@the Conster:
And if someone does, you’ll pull a Bernie?
Baud
@the Conster:
Do you have a link to her dissing party elites, Obama, and Hillary? That’s news to me.
Kent
@Baud: I thought we were talking about Deval Patrick and the killer Klobuchar/Patrick ticket that America has been waiting for. Do you work for Bain Capital too?
JPL
@germy: Nixon and his accomplishments would be better than what we have. depressing for sure
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@the Conster:
Kind of surprised Biden isn’t bringing up Sanders calls to primary Obama
and time is running out on my prediction for Bolton to drop a turd in The Beast’s SOTU punch bowl…
the Conster
@Chyron HR:
What are you talking about?
Ruckus
@Cacti:
Because of why I think he has their support in the first place. What man would they support? So now it’s who’s left that could win black support? No one else actually.
the Conster
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
He has mentioned that in a recent speech, I believe.
Cacti
@Baud:
Elizabeth Warren agrees Democratic race rigged for Clinton
SiubhanDuinne
@mad citizen:
Elizabeth Mann was my mother’s name :-)
Kent
@Cacti: Biden can be surprisingly on point when you are paying attention. Especially on his takes on Sanders. I think some of us expect mush from him all the time. But he has sharp elbows.
the Conster
@Baud:
She and Bernie teamed up to say that the DNC rigged it for Hillary which is Kremlin active measures and completely disrespectful to Hillary and her voters. She and Bernie teamed up to count the money from speech fees the Obamas put in their pockets while Bernie still hadn’t released his taxes while selling his shitty book, and neither one said anything when a week later the Obamas turned around and donated 5 times the amount to Chicago youth programs. That’s the shit that pisses people off forever.
Cacti
@Kent: He did reduce Rudy to “A noun, a verb, and 9/11”.
zhena gogolia
@Kent:
I love her. She was great yesterday.
Kent
I’d rather see the turd drop say around August 24, the first day of the GOP Convention.
Ann Marie
Warren has been my favorite from the beginning, although I was/still am a fan of Harris also. That said, I will support any of the current front runners for the Democratic nomination. Reluctantly, if Sanders. By next January I will have had 4 years of an angry old white man yelling at me on television and saying everyone is unfair to him. I cannot stand the thought of another 4 years of that, whether Trump or Sanders, but at least Sanders won’t be out to screw the poor.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@the Conster:
I saw the purity bunnies squeaking about that, I missed Warren joining in
Cacti
@the Conster: Her demagoguery on the TPP was also a gift to Trump.
zhena gogolia
@Betty Cracker:
I don’t understand why you think Biden is “tanking” if he doesn’t win lily-white IA and NH. This is what people expected all along, isn’t it? At least that’s what I read on BJ.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Kent: @zhena gogolia: Demmings is great. I think she should hire Betty Cracker as her social media director when she runs for Rubio’s seat.
Baud
@Cacti: That’s fairly old, and it’s a one-off comment that most people never paid attention to. I don’t think that explains her polling.
the Conster
@Cacti:
Yes. She’s with Bernie on that too. Very Trumpian.
Baud
@the Conster: On the first point, it was really bad but see my #117. I don’t know about the rest.
zhena gogolia
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Deripaska and Firtash aren’t very fond of him, or the GRU. Makes it kind of tough.
the Conster
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Apparently Obama can’t get paid for his words after 8 scandal free years, only she and lazy fraud Bernie can by selling books.
Warren is ‘troubled’ by speech fees
Dorothy A. Winsor
@Betty Cracker:
Perhaps some Dem could bring Bolton as their guest.
Kraux Pas
Embracing a family story about her heritage while not seeking or obtaining any benefit for it is not cultural appropriation. At most she was insensitive. But that was a long time ago.
I would think native american folk could appreciate oral tradition. Is there any polling specific to this community?
But seriously, banging on about this is very much like if someone were banging on about Hunter Biden. Bullpuckey.
Kent
I expect that by after Super Tuesday we will be down to two leading candidates and maybe a 3rd within vague striking distance and then it really becomes a money game as the rest of the calendar comes fast and furious and the fundraising will become all important. That probably means Bernie and one other challenger, most likely Warren or Biden.
Princess
@Betty Cracker: I’m with you, Betty. I think Biden is listing badly — his numbers in SC are going down and that’s supposed to be his firewall. Warren is well positioned to pick up some of his voters.
And while she may not have high polling with black voters yet, she has room to grow and an endorsement from a key group of black women activists, Black Womxn For, who are closely working with and for her campaign. https://www.blackwomxnfor.com/fullendorse
JPL
This is my feeling, I’ll vote for the democratic nominee. I also voted for McGovern when I lived in the only state he won. I don’t want someone on the ticket that endangers the house. I finally have a democratic representative after years of Price and I don’t want to return to Handel. blech
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Well, three Sara Gideon fund-raising emails tell me Susan Collins has ended the terrible suspense we were all feeling about Susan Collins’ impeachment vote
Kraux Pas
Ooh, that’s my birthday. That would be lovely.
zhena gogolia
@Kent:
He’ll have been thrown in jail by Barr by that time.
WaterGirl
@Martin: I made the mistake of reading Barack’s speech in Iowa after winning the caucus in 2008. All I feel now is profound sadness.
All that hope. He could have brought the country together if the Rs hadn’t made it their sole goal to try to stop everything Obama did in its tracks.
Rs started flushing democracy down the toilet 12 years ago, and I never would have dreamed that they could get this far with their plan.
the Conster
@Kraux Pas:
Her parents were white. I hate to tell you but it’s an actual thing that actual people don’t dismiss as easily as you do and they’re on the left. There are several black women I follow who have more respect for Rachel Dolezal than Warren. Dolezal became director of the NAACP. What did Warren do for NAs at any time, while claiming their heritage? That’s the question they can’t get past. Sorry, but it’s a thing no matter how much you hand wave it away.
zhena gogolia
Oh, FFS.
Princess
@the Conster: Warren walked back her suggestion the primary was rigged almost immediately. I know you know this but since you never provide links for your tendentious attacks on Warren, I’m going to provide one for her walking it back so at least others will see it:
https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/359645-warren-walks-back-claim-democratic-primary-was-rigged
Raven Onthill
@the Conster: riggghhtt… yes, that makes sense. Hillary Clinton, for all her faults, I think talked more about racism. She got blasted for it, too; remember the reaction to the “Two Baskets” speech?
zhena gogolia
@Princess:
It showed terrible judgment to say it in the first place.
the Conster
@Princess:
So did Donna Brazile, but so what? She was very definitive when she made the claim on national TV, and didn’t equivocate at all. DAMAGE DONE.
Kraux Pas
@the Conster: I may be a little biased because I once did the exact same thing. I once included native american, in addition to white, on a school census form just because my grandmother told me it was part of my heritage.
Nothing came of it. I never claimed tribal membership. I never sought or received any benefit. And when I realized it was stupid I never did it again.
Where was the harm?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@zhena gogolia: surprising as the sun rising in the east. I wonder now if Angus King, who has sounded pretty pissed the last couple of weeks, will sully his virtuous independence by taking a stand in the Senate campaign. See also Bill Cohen
MomSense
@Kent:
Maybe my snark meter isn’t working. I was joking with Baud that not knowing who Patrick is and therefore not being a coastal elite is good for Baud’s campaign. Did Baud suspend his imaginary campaign??? I hope not since my superpac is devoted to him.
It’s too bad Patrick went over to the Bain side. I have very happy memories of his support for marriage equality. He performed the first same sex marriage in Massachusetts.
chopper
@Kraux Pas:
wow, this whole ‘reading’ thing is new to you, isn’t it.
Kraux Pas
Assumes an aptitude Trump has never demonstrated.
zhena gogolia
@Kraux Pas:
I can’t even stand to look at her smarmy face.
Kent
@zhena gogolia: I think the Trumpers are out-of-their-league if they fuck with Bolton. If anyone in the entire Federal bureaucracy has the ‘get out of jail free card’ dirt on Trump card hidden away it will be Bolton. The motherfucker is ruthless as the come. He has been playing this game a VERY long time and probably has 75 different reporters on speed dial who he has been leaking shit to as a “senior official on background” for the past 2 decades.
Raven Onthill
@the Conster: one thing at work here is that there is a lot of sexism in Native governments. It is hard to know how much exactly, but I think that has worked against Warren. There is, as the Kavanaugh approval showed, a rapist vote.
trollhattan
@SiubhanDuinne:
If Booker were her running mate then the presidency would be the Mann-Booker Prize.
I’ll be in the bar.
Kent
@MomSense: Oh, I missed the connection.
Kraux Pas
@chopper: So are you suggesting that Mnem made an argument based on a proposition she did not actually believe?
Doesn’t stand to reason.
Mallard Filmore
@Jeffro:
If the Democratic boycott is total, the State Of The Union could be done in the Senate! I understand it is usually in the House only because they have the room for all the attendees. Let the Republican Senate host it this time.
Raven Onthill
@Kraux Pas: it turns out that when people answer these questions incorrectly and in the affirmative, their answers are used to claim diversity by institutions. So there is the harm.
trollhattan
@Kraux Pas:
Yeah, he’s learned he can truly get away with anything. “Now, let’s go plug that guy on 5th Avenue.”
chopper
@zhena gogolia:
oh lol. trump hasn’t learned anything since he was in first grade.
UncleEbeneezer
@Princess: I wish more people would acknowledge this. I’m a big fan of Activist/Organizer and co-Founder of FergusonResponseNetwork, Leslie Mac, who is one of the leaders of this group. She has very little patience for White Nonsense and bull-shitting from White politicians looking to win over Black voters with empty promises. She did a great video about how Warren is the ONLY candidate that has shown a real willingness to listen to Black women and to agree to a structure that let’s them hold her accountable. Obviously nobody is a spokes-person for any group, but I think Mac’s point is an important one that speaks volumes about Warren’s sincerity to address issues that disproportionately effect Black people in America.
Kent
@Raven Onthill: There is also, unfortunately, a mafioso element. Especially where there is money to be made. A lot of the tribal “good government” types are women who are fighting against entrenched interests. For example, from my corner of the world: https://www.hcn.org/issues/52.2/indigenous-affairs-one-woman-took-a-stand-against-tribal-disenrollment-and-paid-for-it-nooksack
I honestly have a hard time believing that black women in swing states like PA, MI, and WI are going to give the slightest shit about the extent to which Warren believed old family lore about native American heritage. And that they would prefer Trump or staying home. I expect they will see it as the smear that it is, as they are very used to seeing smears.
zhena gogolia
@Kent:
What’s the penalty for Trump for ANYTHING now?
Hoodie
@Betty Cracker: It’s the money. Bernie, Warren and Buttagieg each were raking in the bucks, and they spent a lot in Iowa. Joe’s fundraising has been anemic, a least in part because he doesn’t have an army of on-line donors. So he may have been conserving resources for SC and Super Tuesday, where he hopes his branding may carry him through, a la McCain’s resurgence in 2008 after he came in 4th in Iowa. There are some similarities, as McCain’s opposition was split among candidates, none of which were capable of commanding a wide coalition (Huckabee and Romney) or were novelty candidates who flamed out (Fred Thompson). Similarly, Biden’s opposition is also somewhat fragmented, and there likely will not be any particularly candidate who can win big in NH. Therefore, he could stand a chance of resurgence, but Biden’s biggest problem may actually be Bloomberg competing in some big Super Tuesday states. I think there is a real chance that no one is going to gain much momentum in this process.
debbie
@zhena gogolia:
A stupider thought has not been expressed in the last three years.
Kraux Pas
Is that the fault of the institution or the fault of the person who didn’t yet fully grasp the implications of that action?
If there wasn’t a history of these institutions systematically discriminating based on race, it would be a moot point. And in my case, I was one of thousands of people attending and I had already been accepted. It’s like a drop in the ocean.
chopper
@Kraux Pas:
far as i can tell she was making an argument based on a proposition that other people believe. the argument being that liz needs better AA outreach, the ‘other people’ being black voters, and their proposition being that liz hasn’t done enough for them.
you want me to do a sentence diagram or something? would that help?
Kent
@debbie: Well, maybe one not expressed by Trump himself.
Kraux Pas
@chopper: The proposition is that she hadn’t accomplished anything. Plainly false.
Jeffro
@Mallard Filmore: I do wish they would surprise him with it – still not outside the realm of possibility – and that it is a complete boycott. Or that with every lie tonight, a pair of Dems walks out until there are none left.
Either way, I hope they do something that shows America just how not-normal this crazy demented clown really is…or spur him into showing it himself.
debbie
@Jeffro:
I’d rather someone be there to yell out “Liar!” or something similar.
Kent
@zhena gogolia: I think they are running scared. That’s what they whole Biden/Ukraine thing was about in the first place. Trump being scared shitless about 2020.
I think Bolton probably scares the hell out of them. Who the hell knows what dirt he has squirreled away.
Kraux Pas
I mean Trump himself has expressed many things that may arguably be considered thoughts. Surely a multitude of those have been stupider.
schrodingers_cat
At this point I am ABB.
Betty Cracker
@Hoodie: That makes a lot of sense, thanks. I know I’m wish-casting to some extent. It’s a measure of my unwillingness to accept the inevitability of a Clueless Joe candidacy. (Don’t @ me, people, I’ll vote for him if he’s the nominee…)
Kent
@schrodingers_cat: Me too. That only leaves the women.
trnc
I am honestly baffled by this. If general policies are good for everyone, including POC, that she be a checkmark for her. Since Warren has given speeches on racial inequality praised by civil rights activists, that should be another checkmark, particularly since she addressed policing policies and abuses. Some of the bills that she has sponsored for housing and economic equality should be another checkmark. This leads me to wonder what else they expect to see from her.
Is it possibly the case that the underlying complaint is that she hasn’t taken enough meetings with AA groups and leaders?
Marcopolo
@the Conster: Threads on the way to being dead but I’m curious that you’re here spending so much time & energy on repeatedly dissing Warren w/out ever once giving me a positive argument for supporting another candidate. What’s up with that? Is tearing down Warren over what I consider fairly trivial things just what makes you happy? Tell me who you support; who you think we all should support. Otherwise, as far as I’m concerned you’re really not adding much to the conversation.
chopper
@Kraux Pas:
wow, so you went from “skepticism that she’s going to back up her talk with actual action” to “she hadn’t accomplished anything”. you do need me to start diagramming sentences here.
Kraux Pas
@Raven Onthill: I’ve already conceded that it was insensitive and I will go on to concede it was a little naive/stupid. But unless someone can demonstrate to me that it was done opportunistically or maliciously, I’ll go on considering it a nothing-burger.
Kraux Pas
I pointed out an action, something she accomplished. I did this to try to demonstrate she’s not just all talk. She backed up her talk with this action. I’m not the one here struggling with language.
And where has mnem been in all of this?
Raven Onthill
Please. I asked Conster why she tought Warren was doing badly with African-Americans, she answered. Lay off of her for honestly answering the question.
chopper
@Kraux Pas:
right. and as jim pointed out, tell that to black voters.
dunno. maybe as a white person she doesn’t feel she’s the one who needs convincing here? i mean, she’s not gonna up and accept your argument on behalf of black folk, is she?
Raven Onthill
The criticism of racism is now being leveled at both Warren and Sanders. I’m not seeing it directed at Biden, though he has a poor record on race.
It looks to me like any candidate who opposes the big money faction of the Democratic Party will be criticized as racist, regardless of their record.
Brachiator
@Hoodie:
Very interesting comments. Thanks.
I’ve heard some of Bloomberg’s radio ads, saw his tv spot. Doesn’t much move me at all. Is he really having much of an impact?
Raven Onthill
@Kent: another piece for the file. :-(
Brachiator
@Raven Onthill:
Odd. In 2017, both Warren and Sanders got a 100 percent rating on the NAACP Legislative Report Card.
Biden is doing fine despite mystery negative ratings.
beef
@Kent:
I don’t think a black running mate would hurt her with the black community, but I doubt it’s a substitute for direct engagement herself.
On an unrelated note, we should be wary of catapulting relatively inexperienced figures to national prominence. Val Demings performed well in the impeachment trial and I think she’s probably going to be influential, but let’s give her some time to season. She has less political experience than Sarah Palin at this point. Picking her would be blatant pandering.
Marcopolo
@Brachiator: Anecdotally the answer seems to be yes. At my Indivisible GOTV postcard writing event I was disheartened to hear three folks talking about being Bloomberg curious. I implored then to actually do some looking at his record for the past 20 years instead of just liking his TV ads. My closing comment was I’d think about considering voting for him once he released all his employees from their NDAs so we can hear what it has really been like to work for his company.
beef
@Raven Onthill:
Biden’s not perfect, but he was willing to play second fiddle to Obama. That’s a _HUGE_ deal.
Raven Onthill
The problem the criticims of Warren as racist is voter discouragement, not active opposition. US elections hinge on turnout, and if these claims keep votes in they might cost her the election.
Raven Onthill
@beef: good point.
the Conster
@Raven Onthill:
im on the commuter rail, so can’t respond accordingly but thanks! I follow a lot of black women and there’s a lot of anger towards Warren. They feel she treated Harris poorly and appropriated her policies without crediting her. They don’t trust her sincerity. It is what it is
the Conster
@Raven Onthill:
yup. It’s an EC election again. Can she win either PA/MI/FL/WI ? That’s all we need to ponder. I don’t think so. I think Biden can get PA and or MI.
Kent
Hillary Clinton was supposed to be super tight with black women and that is what was supposed to have helped her pull ahead of Sanders in the South. Yet she still lost WI, MI, and PA due, in part, to turnout drop-off in the big cities. Although the flipping of the rural areas more heavily to Trump was probably the deciding factor.
Lack of black enthusiasm and support in the primaries is one thing. The General election is another thing entirely. Blacks, and Black women are among the most loyal of all Democratic voters. They are the BASE of the party. Are they really NOT going to turn out for Warren against Trump???? I have a hard time believing that myself. There are about 25 other Democratic constituencies that are flakier in their support for Dem nominees than Black voters. Especially against Trump. We should probably be more worried about them.
Nicole
Speaking of Twitter folk I follow who were Kamala fans but hostile to Warren, does anyone know what happened to notcaptamerica (Chris Evans)? It just dawned on me that I hadn’t seen tweets from him in my feed for a few days and when I searched I guess he’s gone private? Although I enjoyed, I seldom replied to any of his tweets, so I don’t think I was individually blocked.
(I never waded into the Harris-Warris thing because I liked them both equally, and I felt like the whole Twitter rage that started up after Harris dropped out was manipulated by trolls, and a lot of smart people fell for it. )
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@the Conster: gotta be three out of four, doesn’t it? And NH has to hold? and Maine, which splits its EC votes
the Conster
@Kent:
“dropped off” is an interesting euphemism for “suppressed”. Lots of voting machine fuckery reported in Detroit and Milwaukee.
the Conster
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Hold Hillary’s EC and get PA? Does that do it?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@the Conster: per Wiki, HRC got 232 electoral votes, not counting “faithless electors” which I’d completely fucking forgotten out. So we need those plus 38.
PA- 20
OH- 18
MI- 16
WI- 10
FL- 29
AZ- 11
and MSNBC has dragged Mr Mary Matalin down from the attic, a guy who, almost thirty years ago, helped win one presidential campaign with the help of Ross Perot, who is dead, whose political acumen is such that he endorsed Michael Bennet, and early on election night 2018 declared the midterms a failure for the Democrats
the Conster
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
if Sanders is the nominee there goes Florida. Fucking faithless electors. Jeebus what a shit show the whole thing was.
Benw
Liz Warren freaking slaps!
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I unmuted him, and he’s a performative asshole, but… god help me…. I think he’s right about a lot of stuff
the Conster
@Raven Onthill:
Sanders platformed Rogan and then had his comments about how George Wallace had some admirable qualities unearthed in the same week. He’s a tone deaf low key left libertarian white supremacist at his core.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Raven Onthill:
by whom? where?
MomSense
@Kent:
I find it very upsetting when people say that voters in those states just didn’t turn out because we know for a fact their votes were stolen from them. Between the Voter ID laws, and problems with voting machines – far more people were disenfranchised than the margin of losses in those states.
Brachiator
@Marcopolo:
Very interesting. Thanks. I haven’t heard much talk about him from people I know or even overheard conversations. Some talk about the money he has spent, but not much more than that.
Penty
If Sen. Sanders wins the primary I will vote for him, but I do not like him. He has proven time and time again he is not a team player. I am still pissed off over how he exited the 2016 race. If he really wants to be the head of the Democratic Party he can damn well join it and help it.
David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch
Ruckus
@Kraux Pas:
My family lore is that my great-great grandmother was pure Blackfoot. That would make me 1/64 NA. Which is the same as Warren claimed. And I have checked, that would have gotten me exactly jack squat. Every single program that might have helped me in required no less than 1/8. So, proof or not, it most likely would not have gotten her any thing either. So the entire argument against her is pure bullshit in every direction.
Baud
@MomSense:
IIRC, the Russians were also specifically targeting black voters in the Midwest.
Gex
Deleted
SiubhanDuinne
@zhena gogolia:
SMGDMFH
Betty Cracker
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: If you’d have waited ONE more minute! ?
Raven Onthill
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: right here in this discussion, among other places.
J R in WV
@the Conster:
Well, that’s a hell of a reason to hate Senator Professor Warren, who created the only federal agency designed to protect all Americans from cheating Banks and Finance companies. And actually, one of her parents had a tiny thread of Native ancestry going on, which made her grandparents throw the newly wed couple (her parents) out of the family.
We donated quite a bit to Senator Harris, whom we both respected quite a bit. When she left the race, we began donating to Senator Warren, whom we have admired and respected for years. We’ll be working for her as long as she stays in the race for the nomination.
I assume you’re going to be working for the Not a Democratic candidate, Sanders? Shame on you!!
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Betty Cracker: Okay. But I’m comfortable saying Sanders suffers from a strain of the same disease Jamelle Bouie diagnosed in most white pundits and pols: Thinking racism is bad, but it’s mostly bad manners. Is Sanders a white supremacist? No. Does he recognize the strength of white supremacy in American politics? I don’t think so.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Betty Cracker: and could you throw up a non-cancer, non-Limbaugh open thread, maybe?
the Conster
@Ruckus:
She only used the NA designation for applications to schools and the Texas bar. Did she use it on her children’s birth certificates? Loan applications? If her designation was used to satisfy a diversity requirement, which she claims she didn’t, but if a university checked a box, she deprived an actual WOC of an opportunity. Stop being a dismissive ass.
the Conster
@J R in WV:
I don’t hate her. She’s my Senator and I’d like to keep her in the Senate. I’m pointing out the anger that people who aren’t as dismissive as you are. I felt like you did at first, until I listened to people who are truly angry at her. Her judgment on this issue was very poor.
Kraux Pas
Citation?
the Conster
@Kraux Pas:
use google.
Baud
@the Conster:
There’s nothing more Warren can do about it now. She’s already apologized.
Baud
Pete’s victory speech might have been accurate.
tam1MI
Delegate counts so far are backing up his claim.
the Conster
@Baud:
Yes, after being dragged. It is what it is. Like I said in an earlier comment, there’s a lot of anger at white feminists who want her apology to be enough to make it go away. It’s not my fight, but I listen to those who resent her for what she did as an adult, not a child. I am reporting back from the world of black women and NA women who aren’t as dismissive. [shrug emoji]
Kent
Almost certainly not true. There are almost no quota-programs requiring certain numbers of WOC at universities or anywhere else. Certainly not at Ivy League law schools. Universities might have checked various ethnic boxes in their data collection to make their stats look more diverse but that’s about the only effect.
gwangung
@the Conster: Well, yeah. She reacted as a white person.
And, yeah, there is a lot of native Americans kinda angry at her. Also, there are a lot of native Americans NOT angry with her and want to remain engaged with her.
I think there are permutations here we should be aware away (speaking as a non-Native POC).
the Conster
@Kent:
OK white mansplainer.
gwangung
@Kent: Yeah, that’s pretty true, particularly in the era when she was an undergraduate. Most admissions at elite schools didn’t handle minorities that way (whether that was good, bad or indifferent is another topic).
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@gwangung: Warren got her bachelors at the U of Houston, and her JD at Rutgers. As far as I can recall from the long piece done (by the Boston Globe?) the only time her claims of NA ancestry came into play was when the Harvard Law admin asked her to list herself as Native American to improve faculty diversity stats, but that article was published at least two years ago, and I’m not gonna go reread it.
MomSense
@Kent:
There was a major student led movement at Harvard Law to hire more minority professors. Harvard Law publicized Warren as a minority professor as part of their response to the student movement. A young student named Barack Obama made a name for himself because he spoke at one of their rallies.
Butter Emails
I personally love this line of attack against Warren, because it’s a wonderful twofer. By pretending that she received some sort of undeserved benefit by checking the box for Native American they get to smear her and affirmative action programs at the same time.
Brachiator
@Butter Emails:
Yep. You nailed it.
gwangung
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I think there’s some evidence she might have listed it as a student profile for student activities. As far as I can tell, that had no connection to admissions.
MomSense
@Baud:
C’mon Baud. The Russians didn’t sway 200k people in Wisconsin, mostly poor and POC, not to vote. The Russians were much more successful at swaying white people.
Kent
@the Conster: You are the one making the claim with no evidence that Warren might have displaced WOC in the university hiring process because some university HR person may have “checked a box” I would be interested in knowing which universities had WOC hiring quotas. She taught at Rutgers, Houston, Texas, Michigan, Penn, and Harvard over her career. Which one of those schools had WOC hiring quotas at their law schools that Warren could have inadvertently taken advantage of by a box check?
MomSense
@Brachiator:
It’s very effective even if not true. When has the electorate handled nuance well?
Baud
@MomSense:
I didn’t say the Russians swayed all of those votes. I’m recalling that Mueller said they were targeted for propaganda. The effect is cumulative.
Kraux Pas
@the Conster: Yes, as the person not making the claim, it’s my responsibility to corroborate it. That’s how things work.
Kent
@MomSense: Which speaks to how completely unserious Harvard was about diversity at that time if that is what they did. Not that they ‘accidentally’ hired Elizabeth Warren when they really meant to hire a WOC.
joel hanes
thought better of it, and decided to keep my mouth shut.
Butter Emails
@Butter Emails:
One of my favorite iterations, dredged straight from the Republican sewers is framing what she did as comparable or even worse than Dolezal. Warren accepted her family history and listed herself as native American, receiving no discernible personal benefit. Dolezal engaged in elaborate deception including a physical transformation to pass herself as African American in order to gain acceptance within the community, lend credibility to her stance on issues and then laundered these into a position with the NAACP.
MomSense
@Kent:
My mom was an HR professional, taught HR and ran HR departments for colleges and universities. If you think it doesn’t matter, you are really naive.
Butter Emails
@MomSense:
So, it’s your position that Warren wasn’t qualified?
MomSense
@Butter Emails:
No, it’s my position that employers factor it into their hiring decisions.
zhena gogolia
@tam1MI:
If Pete beat Sanders I will rejoice.
Butter Emails
@MomSense:
The basic implications are that Warren is some sort of affirmative action hire. You generally don’t see these sort of insinuations on the left, but here we are.
MomSense
@Butter Emails:
And whether or not the accusations are true, it’s what people will believe.
Brachiator
@MomSense:
Hell, the commenters here aren’t handling nuance well.
I guess this is all to say that, like Hillary’s e-mails, this is nonsense that will never go away. The GOP will milk this for all it’s worth, and many Democrats will helpfully fall in line.
Butter Emails
@MomSense:
People believe that children are sold into sex slavery in the basement of a DC pizza joint without a basement. I’m more concerned that people on our side are adopting Republican framing on affirmative action in order smear one of our candidates.
Kraux Pas
@MomSense: Buuuut haven’t the people who hired Warren publicly stated that her heritage was never a consideration when she was hired?
Kay
I just got a call from the Bloomberg Ohio campaign on my cell phone, using my first name.
I never give my cell phone # out. The only political-related calls I get on it are from people I know personally in the county party. I don’t know where they would get it.
Immanentize
@Miss Bianca: you and me. Eye to eye.
How’s wolfgirl?
J R in WV
@Ruckus:
My cousin, whom I have gotten much closer with over the past few years, tells me that we have a Shawnee ancestor. He looks it, I do not, I look as European as you can get. We truly can’t know without a DNA test, which we are not willing to sacrifice our privacy for.
But in the long ago pioneer days, the trappers, explorers and frontiersmen had no choice, if they wanted to settle down and raise a family, they had to relate to a Native American woman. The European women were a hundred miles or more east of the frontier.
So wouldn’t be surprised to be some fraction Native American, and would be proud of that heritage!
Immanentize
@Raven Onthill:
please describe the harm.
the Conster
@Brachiator:
I’ve tried explaining that these are real issues with real grievances behind them, and just ignoring them and calling them talking points doesn’t make them go away, especially for the WOC who are angry with her.
@Kraux Pas:
The Boston Globe reported that, but then there was more information about how, when and where she chose to identify as NA for two decades, that doesn’t really add up in her favor. She scrubbed the internet of the video she released to justify her NA claims, which just shows another aspect to her judgment about the whole issue.
tam1MI
@zhena gogolia: This all could change, but certain media outlets are reporting that all that is left to count are rural counties that are Biden-Buttigieg strongholds. Current projections are that Buttigieg will increase his lead and Biden will movie up in the rankings, maybe even knocking Warren out of third place.
Grain of salt and all…
frosty
@Kay: I’m getting texts from Donald Trump Jr. WTF?????
Immanentize
@the Conster: What?! That sounds utterly made up. I am (was) a Harris supporter and that seems just cray cray. Specifics please?
AxelFoley
@the Conster:
@Raven Onthill:
This. It’s getting tiresome explaining to folks why black folks aren’t feeling Liz.
Immanentize
@frosty: You hunt big game? I didn’t take you for a Francis Macomber type.
Omnes Omnibus
I’m sorry, but that really bothers me. It is too close to “let’s pander to the white working class because POC, LGBTQ, immigrants, etc., have nowhere else to go.” Let’s not.
AxelFoley
He actually did a few weeks ago. Saw it on Twitter.
Kay
@frosty:
They bought everything, between them.
I’d rather be me than you though because you got Donald Trump Jr. :)
AxelFoley
Bingo. One of the reasons I fucking hate Bernie and really can’t stand Liz. Plus, both of them tearing down TPP.
Kraux Pas
@the Conster: The reliance on innuendo and filling in the blanks with whatever assumptions you want…this pattern is familiar.
@AxelFoley: So is it your position people should not be allowed to try to make their case?
AxelFoley
@Kraux Pas:
Who said they couldn’t make their case? I, and other black voters, reserve the right to reject them.
the Conster
@Kraux Pas:
I have no idea what you’re babbling about.
the Conster
@AxelFoley:
I’m not black, but if I were I’d be exhausted by all the white people nonsense 24/7. I’m white and I’m exhausted with the willful blindness and excuses for every manner of white nonsense, especially the well meaning white nonsense. I don’t know how y’all do it every day.
the Conster
@Immanentize:
I follow the #KHive on twitter. Do you? It’s been a constant drumbeat how Warren appropriated Kamala’s policies about black maternal mortality, her M4All plan that was phased in, her justice reform plans, Warren’s perfunctory dismissiveness when Kamala asked her to back her up on suspending Trump’s twitter account because of the danger he poses and more. If you’re not following the KHive women, then don’t act like I’m making shit up. There is a real resentment of Liz’s white woman feminism and recent attention to their needs after years of paying no attention to their lives and concerns while appropriating another culture and not doing anything for NAs over two decades of putting the identity on and off as it suited her. Just because you don’t see it, and don’t think it matters, doesn’t mean it isn’t a big thing to others. Dismissiveness isn’t a good look.
Miss Bianca
@Immanentize: Hi, you! : )
Wolfgirl is just fine. Long gone are the days when she would lie outside for hours with the snow piling on her rather than enter the house. She is definitely a house wolf now! An excellent thing when temperature forecasts tonight are taking us south of zero. Thanks for asking!
How is Immp? Did I hear that you and he are going on a cruise?