Most of the first hour of last night’s debate consisted of each candidate taking a shit on Michael Bloomberg, and Elizabeth Warren aiming a shit cannon at him. I’ve watched a lot of debates, and I’ve never seen someone own a debate like Warren. She absolutely devastated Bloomberg in the exchange on non-disclosure agreements. When Warren — who was appropriately aggressive in demanding talk time — wasn’t speaking, one of the other candidates chipped in and threw a shot at Bloomberg. She looked strong, she looked smart, she was nimble, and she could beat Trump. A bravura performance.
As anyone could have predicted, Bloomberg was weak for the first hour because he hadn’t been debating on national TV for a year. He also came off, as predicted, like an out-of-touch plutocrat at times. His only moments of strength were when he was making technocratic points on areas of policy that he’s focused on, like climate change. “I am a manager,” the start of his closing pitch, couldn’t motivate a dog to walk across the kitchen floor to pick up a steak. His massive ability to advertise might stitch up some of the damage inflicted on him last night, but his electability argument took a big hit with the legitimate criticisms on stop-and-frisk, the mortgage crisis, and his issues with women. Referring to Warren as “the Senator standing next to me” was a moment where he took a massive hammer and drove home the nail that, despite his protests to the contrary, he has a big problem with women.
Klobuchar wasn’t as good as she was in New Hampshire. She seemed a little shaken in the first hour, and in the second hour, her pure, white-hot hatred for Pete was on full display, and the longest exchange they had didn’t do either of them any favors. However, it was some good TV, and Pete is lucky that she didn’t have a stapler on her podium. Unfortunately, she didn’t have a good moment when the Telemundo moderator asked her about forgetting the President of Mexico’s name, and that moderator had a good follow-up on Latin American policy that wasn’t kind to her, either.
Pete didn’t miss an opportunity to criticize anyone on the stage, to a fault. He often pivoted at the end of a response to criticize someone else. No nit was too small to pick for Pete, and I thought Warren made him look small when she defended Klobuchar for forgetting AMLO’s name after he had gloated over remembering it. He also continues to rely on platitudes. In his defense, as someone who has a message of unity and being an alternative to divisive politics, it’s hard to look good in the Bloomberg pile on that had to happen last night.
Bernie took a few more hits than he did in New Hampshire, but I don’t know if they did any real damage. One of the issues with attacking Sanders is that he’s held the same positions since Jesus was a baby, so when he gets attacked, he has a ready answer. What else is there to say about a completely known quantity? He profited from everyone’s desire to dunk on Bloomberg, because in another debate, they’d be dunking on him. It looked like Jane went to the Burligton Costco and got him a new shirt and tie after reading my assessment that he was dressed like a 1980’s business traveler in the last debate.
Biden was weaker than the last debate. He suffers from the need to pack 10 things into a period of time that can only accommodate 5. I don’t think I’m talking about his stuttering – I’m talking about him starting a sentence, and then driving off to make a point that may or may not be related, then going back to the topic at hand, then going somewhere else. He made a lot of statements about all the foreign leaders he knows, which I think is weak sauce. There were very few “Good Old Joe Biden” moments.
I realize this is sounding a bit like movie criticism, but with the combination of the need of the candidates to tamp down Bloomberg, and the “hey let’s you and you fight” questions from the (mostly, and predictably) awful moderators, it was a pretty fighty and shouty affair. If you haven’t watched it, I can’t really over-emphasize how Warren took over. In the last debate, she was really good at staying on message, and articulating her programs. In this debate, she wasn’t as concerned about staying on message. Instead, she showed us that she was the best lawyer on the stage – she was on message where appropriate, and attacked when necessary. I thought her run down of why she could win rather than every other candidate was well done. She was gracious while Pete was petty. She was confident and composed while Klobuchar seemed a little shaken. She was coherent and focused while Biden rambled. She was a capitalist while Bernie was defending socialism. She was deft while Bloomberg was clumsy. I hope it does her some good, because she deserves it.
Baud
I thought Biden was stronger.
J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford
Fuck Bernie.
J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford
Every time I think of the video of Briahna Joy Asshole’s bragging about how she voted for Jill Stein in 2016 all I can do is shout “Fuck! Bernie!”
Fuck Bernie!
Victor Matheson
Every time I watch Warren, I can’t believe she is not in first place. Even worse, I can’t believe she is losing to the not-so-killer B’s. I just don’t understand politics.
Betty Cracker
I just published and took down a post with my impressions (so as not to bigfoot your effort). Probably gonna subject readers to it later anyway, but I largely agree with your take. If debates can move the needle, Warren should benefit enormously.
Kraux Pas
The thing that struck me about the NDA discussion was how he kept insisting both sides agree they don’t want to talk about the matters covered by these agreements.
As though how someone felt at the tine they signed it is an immutable characteristic. And no one has ever signed an NDA under duress from a billionaire before…
zhena gogolia
@J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford:
Come sit by me.
I don’t understand why they don’t all go after him. Is he made of glass or something?
Dorothy A. Winsor
Re Bloomberg calling her “the Senator standing next to me,” I wonder if he’s following the old advice about not mentioning your opponent’s name. Like saying “my opponent,” frex. Is that supposed to avoid giving them publicity? Or make them look unworthy of notice maybe?
Anyway, I love that Warren took over. I’ve been steaming all week about her erasure.
Gin & Tonic
@zhena gogolia: Is there still room on the couch?
khead
I will use the word I used last night. Flamethrower. As in “Warren took a flamethrower to the stage last night”.
WaterGirl
What a great sentence:
JPL
@J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford: Warren only gains support if she takes from the others besides Bernie. Her plan can backfire since 3/4’s of folks in NV have already voted. She could be helping Sanders indirectly. imo
MattF
We’ve seen a number of plutocrats and wannabe plutocrats try to run for political office, and (except for the Orange One) they don’t do very well. I recall telling a Steve Forbes supporter that I couldn’t see Forbes leading a group of third-graders across the street. In contrast to Bill Clinton, for example. I didn’t watch the debate, but it sounds like Bloomberg fell into the generic plutocrat category.
rp
Tired: I want to speak to your manager.
Wired: I am a manager.
PsiFighter37
@J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford: That was probably a prerequisite for most of Bernie’s hires. It’s a feature, not a bug.
WaterGirl
@Betty Cracker: Please do post it later. Even when you are riled up about something, I feel calmer when I read your posts.
Either you perfectly capture what I am thinking and feeling, or you present something I am not thinking in a way that is very “hear-able”.
I can’t tell you how much I appreciate you on Balloon Juice!
Another Scott
@MattF: Bloomberg was horrible. When he was interrupted, he pulled the old school master, “Excuse ME, I’m talking…” crap, paused dramatically, and then talked about how only HE actually started a business, etc., etc. It makes normal people want to slap him, IMHO.
Politics isn’t Business. It requires a different skill-set. Too many Wall Street types think that because they have lots of money that they are better than us and can do Anything. Last night showed that it’s not true.
Go SP Warren!!
Cheers,
Scott.
MattF
@WaterGirl: OT. I’m seeing those retractable banner ads across the top of my iPad screen again.
Van Buren
@Victor Matheson: I just don’t understand Democratic voters. Seems obvious to me that she would be a better President than any other candidate. I get that a lot of people have electability concerns, due to her gender, but by resume and disposition, I think she is head and shoulders above all other choices.
I have twice taken one of those “which candidate agrees with you most?” quizzes, and she has never even been in my top 3. But I trust that she has the judgement to do what would be best and most effective much more than I trust in any other.
Betty Cracker
@WaterGirl: Well, thank you! :)
download my app in the app store mistermix
@Betty Cracker: Post it!
@Everyone Upset that Bernie Wasn’t Attacked: Bloomberg helps Bernie. Every minute that they spend shitting on Bloomberg is a minute where Sander’s record isn’t being examined.
Cheryl Rofer
I saw a report that the Warren campaign took in $2.8 million last night, so some other folks thought she did well.
WaterGirl
@MattF: Thank you for letting me know! Steep was the canary in the coal mine last night, and now at least 5 people have reported it in various ways.
That’s actually helpful, even if I already know about it because it allows me to say 5 or 10 or 25 people have reported this problem, which I believe holds weight when I take this upstairs. :-)
Dorothy A. Winsor
@Another Scott: I see SP Warren here recently. What does that stand for? Senator President?
Sab
@Dorothy A. Winsor: I think it is Senator Professor.
Josie
@Dorothy A. Winsor:
I think it might be Senator Professor.
ETA: And Sab types faster than I do.
Another Scott
@Dorothy A. Winsor: Senator Professor Warren.
It’s a Charlie Pierce-ism.
HTH!
Cheers,
Scott.
Nicole
I had two long political discussions via text and WhatsApp, one last night with a childhood friend texted me to try to persuade me to vote Bernie in the primary, and one the night before with a friend in California who is undecided on who to vote for. After last night’s debate, my California friend and his wife are all in for Warren. I had to end the conversation with my childhood friend with a suggestion that maybe he not refer to women, especially women older than he is (like me) as “my dear” in his future texts trying to drum up Bernie support. He apologized, but insisted that he prefers to men as “my dear”, too. Uh huh.
I love Warren as a candidate, and it bothers me that I do, because I try not to get emotionally attached to candidates, as I know voting is not dating, but the overwhelming misogyny in our society really depresses me as I see it affect her run.
ETA: I should add, the child hood friend in question is not a senior citizen, he’s a freaking Gen Xer like I am, so that “my dear“ is totally based in condescension because I was disagreeing with him.
Steeplejack (phone)
@Baud:
Stronger than Warren or stronger than he was last time?
Baud
@Steeplejack (phone):
Than last time.
Dorothy A. Winsor
@Nicole:
Did he say he hated to tell you something? Because in my experience, people who say that never hate telling you whatever it is.
hilts
@download my app in the app store mistermix
Agree with virtually every word in your post.
Warren absolutely owned the debate stage from start to finish. Hopefully, her performance will move the needle and give her a strong 2nd place finish in Nevada.
JPL
@hilts: 3/4’s of the vote is already in so I’m not sure the debate moves the needle that much.
JPL
@Dorothy A. Winsor: lol That is exactly why I use I’m sure you know yadda, yadda, yadda, That came in handy when there was uproar about Obama’s deficit..
hilts
@JPL:
If that’s the case, hopefully this debate helps Warren with voters in South Carolina.
Her debate performance last night was the baseball equivalent of an inside the park grand slam.
Bravo, Elizabeth!
Nicole
@Dorothy A. Winsor: Ha! I’ll have to go back through the 25 or so texts and look. He certainly did do a list of Bernie Stans’ greatest hits, lots of negative propaganda about Warren, without any reasons for why I should vote for Sanders, other than the whole bringing the revolution platitude. I swear, I tried to shut it down politely in the beginning by telling him that I was voting for Warren in the primary and whoever has the D after their name in the general, but, much like some men I’ve known in the dating sphere, he just wouldn’t take no for an answer.
TS (the original)
@JPL:
You’ve said that twice in 30 comments – Do we know the % before the caucus day? Maybe an overwhelmed set of additional voters will attend.
Betty Cracker
@Nicole: I had similar text exchanges with a couple of Sanders supporting friends, sans the condescension. But one admitted that Warren was tearing it up and allowed as how she MIGHT vote for Warren, depending on how things shake out between now and mid-March, so I took that as a positive sign.
JMG
@JPL: Minor correction: The total of early voters in Nevada is 3/4ths of the total caucus attendance in 2016. We don’t know what percentage of the 2020 vote they’ll be because caucus day hasn’t happened yet.
evap
I sent Warren $10 during the debate, I’m pleased to hear she raised so much. I am heartbroken that she will almost certainly not get the nomination when she would both be the best president and be able to take down Trump (if anyone can). In 2008, I was all in for Obama from the start and I remember having this same sick feeling when Hillary won California — how could we not nominate the person who was so clearly the best candidate? I doubt it will end so happily this year…
Kylroy
@zhena gogolia: The other Dems don’t go after Bernie because they will ultimately need his voters to win the general election, and they’ve shown that they *will* stay home if you criticize their Dear Leader.
Bloomberg’s road to getting elected *doesn’t* require Bernie voters to back him, so he’s free to attack. I don’t like Bloomberg, he’s not really a Democrat (…either…), but he’s giving Bernie a preview of what an opponent who doesn’t care about offending his followers will do.
different-church-lady
@Nicole:
Ah, so he condescends to everyone equally.
JPL
@JMG: Thank you.
JPL
@TS (the original): But it was a lot right.. kidding and thank you for the correction.
Shalimar
@different-church-lady: or he lies to women and calls men “my bros”.
Starfish
@Nicole: You are right. Gen X dudes can take their “my dears” of condescension and leave with that nonsense.
SFAW
@Another Scott:
And I think Charlie did it as a poke at Scott Brown, who kept calling her “Professor Warren” during their debates, as if being smart and a Harvard teacher/professor were a bad thing. Because those elites are elite, doncha know.
rp
Gave Warren more money this morning. Fingers crossed…
SFAW
@Nicole:
Does he also refer to the Traitor-in-Chief as “my lord and leader, God-Emperor Donald Trump”? Because that’s about the same level of believability.
germy
JPL
@germy: Tears and goose bumps.
germy
mali muso
@WaterGirl: Count me in as another one. I was reading from both my iPhone and iPad last night and had issues with the ads. You can’t use the scrolling buttons because they’re covered up and when I try to close the ad, it doesn’t actually go away.
@rp: Just donated a little more this morning too!
germy
SFAW
@germy:
That Rubin twit reminds me that Joan “I never met a strong woman I couldn’t hate on” Vennochi will probably make similar comments if Warren moves into the lead, or close to it.
[Vennochi is a Boston Glob op-ed “writer,” for those unfamiliar with her name.]
schrodingers_cat
Was Baby Jesus born in 2007? Because the the Socialist Jesus has opportunistically changed his stance on immigration since then. And he lied about it yesterday. He supposedly voted against it to prevent slavery is what I heard him say last night.
He went on Lou Dobbs in 2007 to denigrate immigrants after he voted against the bill that would have provided a path to citizenship for millions. EW has decided to be the sidekick to St. Bernard by attacking everyone on the stage but him last night. So that tells me who she is going to fight for.
artem1s
@Kylroy:
the other Dems didn’t go after Bernie because last night they needed to get the plutocrat off the stage and prove that buying your way onto the stage isn’t a good way to select the debate team.
generally they don’t go after him because you don’t win votes by going on defense. And they know BS supporters are never going to vote for anyone else anyway. African American women on the other hand are likely to appreciate a candidate that speaks to their issues and ignores shouty old grandpa over in the corner waving his finger. In this instance the best strategy is to continue to treat BS as the non-threat he really is. After NV or Super Tuesday, that may change. But for now I think they should ignore the media’s attempts to turn this into a mud fight.
germy
schrodingers_cat
@artem1s: I am not an African American women but such a candidate will win kudos from me. This deference to BS is telling me that immigrants like me have no home in any political party.
Jerzy Russian
@WaterGirl: One odd thing that sometimes happens on my iPhone: Sometimes I want to go to the end of the comments, so I will hit the down arrow. On the phone, this takes me to the bottom where Mr. Cole’s tweets are. I then drag the screen to scroll upwards. However, sometimes I can’t scroll past the tweets to where the comments are. This does not happen all of the time. When it happens, I push the up arrow, then the down arrow, and drag to move up to the last comment.
Sis
Yes! How anyone who has progressive policy goals could look at Warren and her accomplishments and her smarts and her skills and still pick Bernie is a mystery to me. He hasn’t done one thing of note in all his years in Congress. What gives?
SFAW
@schrodingers_cat:
There might be a different reason/explanation: she viewed/views Bloomberg as being a greater threat to the party and candidates (as well as her own campaign), and dealt with him accordingly. If she starts putting some distance (polling-wise) between herself and Biden/Buttigieg/Klobuchar — assuming it’s not a “flavor of the week” thing that we saw during the GOP primary in 2016 — I would expect her to start going after Sanders.
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
@Sis: A sparrow landed on his podium.
West of the Cascades
@TS (the original): re: 3/4 of the Nevada vote being in … maybe a reference to a tweet from Jon Ralston (the dean of NV political analysis) yesterday:
NEWS: Stunning last day of turnout for Nevada caucus: Not all ballots counted but the number Tuesday was about the same as the first three days COMBINED. Upwards of 33,000. So about 70,000 total.
Perspective: 84K turned out on Caucus Day in ‘16, with no early voting.
This, of course, is a reminder to the Nevada Democratic Party that it should be holding a primary, not a caucus. We’ll see what this hybrid system produces. Ralston also reminds people that the early voting involved listing three candidates in order of preference, and therefore polls (which only measure the first preference in most cases) may be misleading in terms of how Nevada will shake out.
schrodingers_cat
@SFAW: I will believe it after I see it happen.
oldgold
Clearly, Warren damaged Bloomberg last night. That expressed, it is not clear to me that this necessarily means she helped herself.
SFAW
@Sis:
You’re being unfair. Getting a courthouse renamed (or something similar) is among the most difficult things a Rep or Senator can do. It’s even more difficult than wearing a flag pin (American, one hopes) on your lapel, or being a shouty, finger-waggy old fart.
Betty Cracker
@schrodingers_cat: You didn’t watch the debate? Or maybe you mute it every time Warren speaks? Because she did ding Sanders last night on the M4A hypocrisy. Not as hard as you’d like; pretty sure nothing short of Warren removing a sensible shoe and flogging Sanders with it would satisfy you! :) But she did, in fact, call out Sanders last night.
SFAW
@schrodingers_cat:
Understood, and what I hoped/expected.
schrodingers_cat
@Betty Cracker: I watched it for the last hour. Her call outs of the hypocrisy of the Vermont Jesus were super subtle, unlike the claws she unsheathed for everyone else on the stage.
I may not like the man but I do draw the line at violence against frail senior citizens recently recovering from a heart attack. He can just go retire to one his 3 homes.
Kylroy
@Sis: Male. Shouty, feels like he “won’t compromise”. Feels like he’ll punch back at the GOP.
And for them, this is more important than little things like “can actually get legislation passed”.
Commenting at Balloon Juice since 1937
I was surprised only Bernie brought up the fact that Bloomberg was a Republican Mayor. (unless I’m mistaken and someone else mentioned it). I would have prefaced every criticism of Bloomberg with that – ‘when you were a Republican you supported stop and frisk’, etc and really drive it home that he is not someone who can be trusted. They demolished him in either case. I guess I just wanted someone to drive a bus over his dead body too.
germy
germy
WaterGirl
@Jerzy Russian: If you want to go to the end of the comments, hit the button that says COMMENT. I think that’s where you want to go.
On mobile, the stuff that is on the right-hand side on a computer shows up at the bottom of the page, after all the comments. So you would hit the down arrow if you want to go to Cole’s twitter, or something else from the “right-hand-side” or to the footer.
SFAW
@schrodingers_cat:
As Omar (and others) have said: “You come at the king, you best not miss.” And at this point, based on the polling, he’s the king. [Yes, I realize the “moderate/centrist/anti-Bernie” percentages dwarf his.] I think it does her little good to go after him until it becomes clear (to her) that he is now the biggest problem, i.e., after the others have fallen back.
japa21
@WaterGirl:
Almost but not quite Crackeresque
FlipYrWhig
Sanders really, really, REALLY doesn’t like being subjected to criticism. He has no magnanimity.
germy
Shalimar
@schrodingers_cat: It sounds like you can’t stand Bernie (I’m right there with you) and have been searching for a reason for not liking Warren either. I’m glad you finally found one you’re happy with.
germy
@FlipYrWhig: I thought so, but he chuckled a few times when Pete went after him. But Bloomberg seemed to really piss him off.
Bloomberg pisses me off, too.
WaterGirl
@japa21: Shades of Betty Cracker!
Shalimar
@Kylroy: The male part seems ultra-important, because Warren just sliced and diced Bloomberg in exactly the way Sanders supporters dream that he could if we only give him the chance.
SFAW
@WaterGirl:
There’s no shade like Cracker shade.
Baud
I wish someone had hit Bloomberg on cubicle farms.
I also wish someone had hit Bloomberg.
The Moar You Know
So, when the fuck is the party going to get a clue and close our primaries? Both my GOP co-workers were sniggering this morning about how they’ve filled out their ballots (I’m in CA) and both voted for Bernie.
Shalimar
@germy: I am shocked that Rubin thinks destroying a Romney-lite billionaire is a bad thing.
schrodingers_cat
@Shalimar: I don’t like or dislike Warren. I will work my heart out for her if she is the nominee. If BS as our nominee, I will be without a party.
She is too close to BS for me to support her during the primaries. A vote for Warren in the case of contested convention is a vote for BS by proxy because right at this moment he is polling around 27 to 30% in different states. This is my opinion and I will vote accordingly.
germy
@Shalimar: I’m not shocked. I don’t trust republican never-trumpers. I like some of the criticisms they throw at PEETUS, but often the mask slips and their other ideas bubble up like a clogged toilet.
trnc
@Kylroy:
I think it also made sense to take on Mike B early and show all that he has going for him at this point are ads and money. Hopefully, EW will get a chance to pivot to Bernie soon.
SFAW
@Shalimar: How is Bloomberg “Romney-lite” (other than height-wise)? Bloomberg’s net worth is about 200 x Romney’s.
Of course, Bloomberg’s worth pales in comparison to the Liar-in-Chief, who says his own net worth is somewhere between $270 Skillion and $47 Gazillion, making him the richest “man” in the universe — perhaps ALL the universes.
schrodingers_cat
@SFAW: Well she has made her calculation and I have made mine.
Chyron HR
@schrodingers_cat:
Yes, Elizabeth Warren and David Sirota, two peas in a pod, not an inch between them.
FlipYrWhig
@germy: I saw him chuckle about “before it was cool,” but I didn’t think it continued after the tone changed to criticism. He just seems exasperated *all of the time.* I’m not sure if that wears well over time, not just to me but to people in general. We’ll see.
Shalimar
@SFAW: Romney-lite politically, not financially. Really rich guy who went into politics. Romney was a governor who got his party’s nomination and failed to become president. Bloomberg was a mayor who will now fail to even get the nomination.
Baud
@schrodingers_cat:
Who do you think you’ll vote for?
trnc
@hilts: I didn’t see the debate, but I’m happy to hear this consensus. Also, don’t look now, but someone from Media Mordor seems to agree with you.
https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/mary-anne-marsh-in-fierce-democratic-presidential-debate-here-are-winners-and-losers
SFAW
@schrodingers_cat:
I saw your comment at 88; thanks for explaining, but I’m a little baffled by your logic. I assume that’s just me not “getting it.” [No, I’m not being snarky or sarcastic.] I think we’ll just have to revisit in a month.
Hoodie
Warren was strong, but I suspect she may have only succeeded in making the world safer for Bernie Sanders. Her attacks on Bloomberg were her strongest aspect. It won’t affect his bank account, so it’s just a matter of how long he feels like wasting money because he doesn’t appear to be ready for prime time. If he was going to get traction, he needed to be more proactive on dealing with his past transgressions, and she really brought out his failure to do so.
If Warren wants to veer more to the moderate lane to set herself up as the non-Bernie/non-Bloomberg, the attacks on Buttagieg and Klobuchar for lack of detailed plans are counterproductive. Part of the moderate pitch is that detailed plans for massive overhauls of systems are a mistake. Incremental changes don’t need detailed plans. However, Warren seems a bit addicted to complexity, maybe it’s the professor in her. She’s just setting herself up again to the criticism that she’s losing herself in fancy plans for things that will never happen, which means that she does not particularly differentiate herself from Sanders. So, on balance, while her performance against Bloomberg was very good, she didn’t fully capitalize on being the one who was strongest in pushing him out of the way and offering a real, pragmatic alternative to Sanders.
Buttagieg was his usual animatronic self, and Klobuchar never got in rhythm because she got angry and flustered after that stuff about Mexico. Honestly, the way the debate transpired, it could have been a good opportunity for Biden to reassert himself, because Buttagieg and Klobuchar did not do very well, and Warren didn’t completely grab the opportunity. He had a couple of good moments, but pretty much flubbed it by being somewhat incoherent. Poor Joe is just too old to be doing this shit.
Shalimar
@schrodingers_cat: I support Warren and Bernie would be my last choice at a contested convention assuming Bloomberg is done. I’m guessing without polling evidence that most Warren supporters do not see Sanders as their 2nd choice despite the similar ideology. I think she is being nice to him in the hopes that she can convince his supporters to vote for her in November if she is the nominee, not because she is being subservient. Your mileage obviously differs.
schrodingers_cat
@Shalimar: I can’t read her mind. From her actions so far its seems like she would back BS in the event of a contested convention.
Shalimar
@germy: I don’t trust any of the never-Trumpers other than Rubin, and that is because I find her predictability reassuring. She seems to have changed her priorities rather than her values. She actually thought we shared values as a nation and Trump has exposed that Republicans were lying about that. But she is still the same war-mongering wealth-worshiper she was before.
I don’t agree with her on that much. I don’t consider her a political ally. But I do trust she is actually being honest, which is more than I can say for any of the rest of them.
schrodingers_cat
@Hoodie: I agree with your points. She was acting like the VP candidate for BS.
schrodingers_cat
@Baud: I am leaning Biden but waiting for SC and NV.
Kelly
My wife and I watched our first debate of the season last night. We both support Senator Professor Warren so it was an enjoyable evening.
I give Buttigieg a few points for an early dig at Bloomberg and Sanders being Democrats of convenience. Didn’t actually name them but it was clear who he was talking about.
zhena gogolia
@Betty Cracker:
I’m down for that!
zhena gogolia
@germy:
Amen.
Hoodie
@schrodingers_cat: Well, I’m not sure about that, but I think it also has something to do with failure on the part of all of the candidates to talk up this being a team effort. You’re trying to raise and inspire an army to take down Trump and his enablers, not auditioning for a role in a play. Remember, Obama was all about us being the change, not him swooping in and personally fixing everything. He didn’t have much in the way of detailed plans, but more of an inspirational message and solid organizational skills. This is an executive job, not a legislative one. Laugh at him, but Bloomberg is right about that (otherwise, he’s just another rich asshole).
Sanders is the only one getting even close to doing this, but his organizational chops are lacking because he’s not believable. The one good line Bloomberg got in was the one about the world’s most famous socialist having three houses. That kind of thing will be exploited mercilessly in the general election and, if we get into a campaign where we’re arguing about socialism vs. capitalism, we will lose. Most Americans don’t even know what socialism is and haven’t been to Denmark.
Steeplejack (phone)
@Jerzy Russian:
Better: Press “Comment” at the top. That will take you to the comment box, from which you can go up just a skosh to see the end of the existing comments.
schrodingers_cat
@Hoodie: The socialist to Democratic Socialist is more of change in branding. We have videos of BS praising Communist dictators including the Soviet Union.
J R in WV
@schrodingers_cat:
I think you should listen to what candidates say about issues instead of trying to divine their internal thoughts from actions not really related to the issue you appear to be concerned about.
In other words, Senator Warren actually said many supportive things about immigrants and their community in Nevada last night. There is no need to derive her internal thoughts about immigration from her other actions during the debate.
And Senator Warren appears to me to have separated herself from Senator Sanders as the campaign continues. Not attacking one opponent on the debate stage does not make Warren into that candidate’s “sidekick” at all ~!!~
Jerzy Russian
@Steeplejack (phone): Thanks for the tip.
WaterGirl
@Jerzy Russian: Steep must have explained it better because I said the same thing at #75. :-)
J R in WV
@schrodingers_cat:
I think you are doing too much reading into and interepreting from “actions” rather than listening to what she says.
She disagrees with Sanders on so many issues I don’t think she would take a VP slot even if he offered it, which he will never do. She is far to much smarter than Sanders, who isn’t very smart at all, and he is one of those men who won’t ever allow a brilliant woman in his working group.
I also think she has decided that Sanders is not electable in 2020, which I agree with, and will do her best to keep him from being the nominee.
Obviously we, you and I, don’t agree about Warren’s internal thoughts on the election. I’m trying to go on what I hear her say, rather than analyzing her actions to determine her intentions.
But over the next 4 months we shall see. I don’t see anyone with Sanders’ background of admiration for Soviet politics getting elected to any nationwide office, ever. He’s talked with so much admiration for far left Soviet politicians over the years, and all that video is going to be unleashed upon him if he is actually nominated.
So I’m against him in a large way. He really is a Soviet/Russian stooge, he loved how the Soviet leadership ran their dictatorship, and he wants to be like that. He is a cartoon of the leadership of the Politburo back in the 1980s in every way.
ETA to fix dammmed quote box!!!
Sab
@schrodingers_cat: I think immigration reform is currently a third rail in American politics. George Bush couldn’t even manage it.
I am passionate about immigration reform. I think open doors is what has made the America I love what it is. I have in-laws here on green cards who came here because that is what they thought America was all about. I also want my candidates to keep their mouths shut so they don’t lose the next election to the guys on the other side of the issue who will be appalling.
It’s like LGBT rights used to be. I could generally guess what a candidate would do on the issue. I didn’t need an outspoken approach that would blow up politically.
Mr. Mack
@Sab: This is a very interesting take. I feel much the same way. I also think that getting bogged down in any policy nuance is pointless this election. There is, however, something to be said about insuring that advocates for various groups have an opportunity to air their concerns. For years, Democrats have had to at least implicitly ask LGBT groups to “sit down, shut up” so as not to alienate a big chunk of voters.
Sab
@Mr. Mack: I agree. I don’t know how to strike the balance. I just am afraid of litmus tests that blow up the wrong side.
This whole immigration thimg just upsets me so much.
qMy city has been welcoming. We had a whole infrastructure set up to absorb people. It wasn’t easy at all for the immigrants, but at least there was something. English as a foreign language classes. People guiding them learning the ropes. I ‘d see them buying furniture and household goods at estate tag sales and at thrift stores that they wouldn’t even have known about without local guidance.
The immigrants came in, struggled, and revitalized dying neighborhoods. All sorts of immigrants over the years, Lebanese, Vietnamese and southeast Asians, Yugoslavs, Arabs, Nepalese. And Trumps people blew that all up. Without immigrants the whole infrastructure to support them collapses.
David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch
So naive.
Hillary was a known quantity. 30 years of investigations and demonizing her, you couldn’t be a more known quantity than Hillary. That didn’t stop the republicans and corporate media from attacking her every minute and dragging her numbers down. Which is what they’ll do to the 80 year old Socialist, who wants to take away every union health care plan, with health problem far more serious than Hillary’s dry cough, until he loses 49 states.