After reading the local newspaper and TV station accounts, and looking at social media, the consensus is that the order of events yesterday in Rochester was:
- There was a large, peaceful protest by BLM.
- A group of mainly white Antifa types started committing mayhem like smashing windows, tagging, turning over police cars, starting fires, etc. This happened mostly in the city center.
- Looting by mainly black looters spread out from the city center to poorer neighborhoods, targeting the retail stores in those areas.
While this was happening, there were false reports to police and on social media that far exceeded what rioters and looters were doing, such as the false report that rioters had let animals loose in the zoo.
Today BLM volunteers are helping city workers clean up.
The one thing that’s different from the stories I’ve seen from other cities is that police did not attack the press or peaceful protesters.
Is this the pattern in your city, if you had protests?
My sole observation at the moment is that we’re probably going to have a hell of a COVID-19 uptick in a couple of weeks.
debbie
Did you tweet that photo from yesterday about that white guy just about to trash a car? Proof positive it wasn’t BLM.
debbie
Reposting:
I will say it again. There is something more going on here. All this overreaction to any sort of dissent. Some sort of secret coordinated action by police forces and paramilitary groups (alleged “looters”).
I just listened to an interview with Joyce Beatty, my U.S. Rep, who got pepper sprayed yesterday when she was trying to deescalate a small confrontation (about staying on or stepping off a sidewalk). Some FOP rep is accusing this 70+ year old woman of of actual physical assault upon an officer. All the woman had was her red smartphone.
GregB
Manchester NH had a peaceful daytime BLM protest that was even endorsed by the Republican Governor. Then at the end a father and son in a pickup truck with a Trump flag and an anti-American Confederate flag threatened people with a gun.
Betty Cracker
Here’s a GOP rep a couple of counties over:
Freemark
At least they were wearing masks.
Leto
Avalune and I have thought about this too. We’re seeing an uptick in cases from that Ozarks lake party, so I’m sure we’re going to see an uptick from this even though many of the people seem to be wearing masks.
@Betty Cracker: reminds me of just after Katrina when there were signs outside buildings saying looters will be shot. Except this is coming from an elected official. I’d ask where is the GOP in all this, but we know they’ve been in their white masks for 150+ years.
download my app in the app store mistermix
@debbie: Yes, I posted that, and yes, I agree that Antifa was the instigator of the violence, as far as I can tell. BLM was first, and peaceful. Then Antifa. Then looting.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@debbie:
I saw on Twitter some asswipes trying to use a different angle of that to try to portray Beatty as attacking the officer
debbie
@download my app in the app store mistermix:
You don’t think any RWNJs were involved in the looting to undermine the cause?
Ol'Froth
I was watching things unfold live in Pittsburgh. The march was peaceful until what appeared to be anarchists started vandalizing property and setting things, including a couple of police cars on fire.
Jinchi
How do you know they were antifa?
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
Most of what you describe for Rochester was the same for Louisville, with some exceptions of levels of police interference with supplies, assaults on older politicians of color, and attacks on reporters (corrections officers deliberately targeted one news crew).
I’ve been lighting up judges about blanket approval should ass Asa a was e we are haphazard,
Mary G
Link goes to FTFNYT, but what ya gonna do?
I think a lot of these so-called “antifas” are actually “boogaloo boys” who want to incite a new civil war, kill black people, and get Twitler reelected. I don’t think it will work, but maybe I’m just wistfully thinking.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Betty Cracker:
What’s to stop rioters/looters from packing heat, too? But yeah, this guy is a US Rep. He shouldn’t be encouraging vigilante violence
download my app in the app store mistermix
@Jinchi: The mayor and police chief identified them as such, but, no, I don’t know for a certain fact that they were Antifa. However, there are plenty of press photos and videos of mostly white rioters smashing police cars and tagging.
debbie
@Mary G:
Seconded, but what a stupid name to pick for yourselves.
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
Doubtless she was about to box the cop’s ears in a grandmotherly way. //
download my app in the app store mistermix
@debbie: I don’t know that RWNJs were not involved, but there’s a lot of video and photo evidence of who was doing the looting.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
Jesus, what I meant to say was that I was lighting up judges about blanket execution of haphazard warrants. I’m getting pushback and hurt feels from the bench, but they needed to hear it.
Kay
I think police attacking reporters are a direct result of Donald Trump and his supporters attacking reporters. Donald Trump did this.
It should horrify people because it’s so clearly the actions of a repressive, authoritarian state and it can be laid directly at the feet of Donald Trump and the GOP.
I know there are too many examples of how completely full of shit conservatives are to count at this point, but take a moment and ponder the fact that conservatives created this – the same people who whined for the last 5 years that the Oberlin student council were the biggest threat to free speech.
They’re shooting at members of the media and STILL conservatives won’t denounce Trump.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@Mary G:
National Security Advisor was on this morning claiming to see none of these reports, railing on instead about “radical left ANTIFA”.
Amir Khalid
@Betty Cracker:
And when the looters and vandals they shoot turn out to be police officers acting as provocateurs, then what?
donnah
Here in Dayton, Ohio yesterday there were peaceful demonstrations, many of the people wore Covid masks and carried signs, chanted, and were fairly organized. Police were standing at major intersections downtown with their bicycles in front of them to form a line. The mayor, Nan Whaley, came out and spoke about what the city needs to do to make things work better for our black population.
But later, when a second wave of protesters arrived to a march scheduled for 7 pm, the crowd became more aggressive, with shouting and throwing water bottles and someone smashed a parked police car windshield. Suddenly people were spraying “FUCK” on the courthouse, floral planters were turned over, trash containers flipped, and then the police reacted with pepper spray and tear gas. It seemed to turn ugly in a matter of minutes. The mayor issued a curfew for 9 pm and of course that was not effective. The police spread out to circle the protesters who were sill there and by midnight the area was cleared.
I had hoped that Dayton, which survived seven tornados just a year ago this weekend, and survived a mass shooting last August would not turn violent. We have lost so much, only to see another tragic event with so much anger.
germy
The writer of this thread met with most Democratic presidential candidates, including Joe Biden.
debbie
@Kay:
Tell all these fucking “Constitutionalists” that the Founders would be appalled.
Mary G
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: Of course; they’re trying to replay 1968. They didn’t have cell phones and social media then though. I don’t think the ordinary voter is going to buy it.
HarlequinGnoll
If they not punching Nazis I dont call them antifa. 100 years ago they’d just be anarchists.
Kay
@debbie:
How did they think it would end? They held those rallies and Donald Trump encouraged the followers to attack the media verbally, over and over and over. He attacks them from the podium with the presidential seal. HE DID THIS. He led it and this is the inevitable and entirely predictable result of his inciting people to violence against members of the press. We all watched it happen.
germy
@download my app in the app store mistermix:
Mostly white rioters = Antifa?
Not the various RW groups? I mean, an abortion clinic was torched. And an affordable housing complex
Kay
I know this is perhaps pollyanish but there seem to be cities that did a good job working with protesters and keeping everyone safe. I’ve seen Newark NJ and Flint MI cited as examples on Twitter. If that is in fact true we should look at those cities and see how they managed to do it.
Served
The property damage I witnessed was done by white men.
There was an organized group of white protesters in Chicago. I am not sure if they were part of a group, but you could tell they’d done this kind of thing before. They didn’t escalate violence, but after two police SUVs reversed at high speed down a crowded bridge without sirens or warning, nearly hitting several protestors, this group moved metal barricades to block the bridge from vehicles.
Once the coordinated marching ended, you could feel the tension. Protesters started distributing legal hotlines and instructions for recording encounters and what to do if you are arrested. As I was leaving soon after that, I saw several police vans park and full riot gear-laden police got out. There had been no violence to that point to necessitate that kind of show of force.
cleek
the looting in Raleigh was by black teens. a friend has a store there, and was already struggling thanks to C19. now, her store is destroyed, and her inventory is gone. she recorded it on her phone as it was happening.
Jinchi
White rioters can mean a lot of things. The ones I’m most familiar with are the anarchists who just want to see chaos. Then there are antifa and the alt-right agitators. I wouldn’t be surprised if all three groups are in the mix. I’m just not sure I could easily tell the difference between them in a random picture.
a thousand flouncing lurkers was fidelio
That pattern is very similar to what happened in Nashville. Of note is that the Black Lives Matter protest was supposedly scheduled for later this week, on June 4.
But we had the peaceful march, the mayor & police chief meeting with people and things looking productive, and after most of that had dispersed, the mostly-white agents of chaos went to work.
Luckily the Old Courthouse has a sprinkler system; a friend who works there said earlier today that she was told most of the damage noted was water damage rather than direct fire damage.
There were also several efforts to break into and set fires in the businesses on lower Broadway; that area is one of Nashville’s big tourist attractions, in other times. As far as I know these fires were contained.
I know some extreme leftists who are only to happy to be violent—mostly against property—in order to stir up some chaos, in the overly-optimistic mindset of “Nach Hitler, uns!” but the strong possibility of right-wing provocateurs shouldn’t be ignored. Until I know who to blame, I’m just calling them agents of chaos, as that’s their short-term goal.
Villago Delenda Est
@download my app in the app store mistermix: Don’t be so sure that these are actual anti-fascists, but rather fascists adopting their guise. “False flag” isn’t just an Alex Jones trope.
oatler.
The bloody civil war people talked about is here and it is bloody. Everywhere.
dimmsdale
@download my app in the app store mistermix: I would hope we can be very, very rigorous about ascertaining EXACTLY who these white marauders are allied with, before drawing any conclusions. It’s absolutely in the interests of the right wing, the various reactionary police administrations, and (Republican) government officials to paint white supremacists as ‘antifa’ (and it’s part of the white supremacist playbook as well, I believe, as well as part of the ‘Active Measures’ being taken by Talking Anus’s pal Putin).
KSinMA
@germy: He sounds impressive indeed.
Chyron HR
@debbie:
That’s the point. They get to smash shit and assault people, and you look silly for blaming it on the “Boogaloo”.
ziggy
Calling them Antifa (or even “Antifa types”) is just playing into the story line that right-wingers and Trump are pushing, let’s not add fuel to that fire. Where is the evidence that they are Antifa? Let’s wait until there is proof of some organizing group or groups. “Mayhem tourists” seems much more appropriate for the majority of them. We used to call them Anarchists, but I think that might even be a bit generous as to giving them an underlying ideology.
Elizabelle
I think cameras and cell phone footage are among our biggest weapons right now.
Identify these people. You know the police are. I would assume the FBI has been called in, too.
jonas
Is that the case? I’ve read that one person who was there later tested positive, but I haven’t seen anything about it having caused an outbreak (happy to stand corrected). My amateur impression is that Covid-19 doesn’t really spread easily outdoors, which is why, e.g. we haven’t seen a huge explosion of cases in states where people have been packing beaches for the past couple of weeks, etc. Nursing homes, gyms, meatpacking plants, churches? Yeah, those are going to continue to be problems.
germy
Patricia Kayden
Jinchi
The Ozarks party was a week ago. We wouldn’t expect to see evidence of an outbreak for about another week and really, we’d only be able to confirm it if someone is doing trace testing.
A Ghost to Most
I see some front pagers are still chowing down on right-wing propaganda.
Same as it ever was.
Sab
In Akron OH our protests were mostly okay. Initial march was very peaceful in the afternoon around downtown. Afterwards it dispersed. Later, in the evening, more violent protests were attempted but dispersed by police. Windows of one fancy restaurant were broken, as were the windows of the Goodwill thriftshop across the street. That was about it. Probably a good thing the nearby university wasn’t in session. We’ve had worse riots with frats at the end of the school year almost every Spring.
different-church-lady
Man, did August come early this year.
debbie
@Kay:
I hope Biden makes it an important part of his campaign: Donald Trump is responsible for EVERYTHING that is wrong in this country. There’s hours of campaign ads right there.
different-church-lady
@A Ghost to Most: Care to elucidate?
germy
@ziggy: Yes, that’s a Bill Barr talking point.
lamh36
trollhattan
@Betty Cracker:
Aww, he Bedazzled his little gun.
Sab
@jonas: Wait two or three weeks before you opine. Virus takes a while to kick in. Also, no masks in the Ozarks. Mostly masks in the protests yesterday.
jonas
@dimmsdale: The mayor of Minneapolis (IIRC) was saying the other day that the FBI had told him that the NSA was picking up chatter abroad (implied to be Russia) that suggested they were working to stir up trouble in the wake of the Floyd killing. The Russians are adept at pushing buttons on both the far-right and far-left. Wouldn’t be at all surprised if they weren’t behind both Antifa/anarchist and alt-right provocateurs showing up at these demonstrations.
kindness
I firmly believe some of the destruction is white folk trying to start shit and make the demonstrators look like the bad guys. The looting I can’t excuse though. That really is an ugly look. Takes away from the statements that need to be made.
Kirk Spencer
@Jinchi: Agreed. The fact that one person was positive just a couple of days after attending just increases the odds the uptick will happen, it’s not the uptick itself.
jayjaybear
Labeling anarchists (if that’s even what they are) as “Antifa” is buying into the right-wing paradigm that “Fascist” = orderly society. Anarchists can be anarchic without being anti-fascist. Don’t forward the right-wing propaganda.
Sab
@a thousand flouncing lurkers was fidelio: I like your “agents of chaos” label.
Buckeye
@donnah:
The reaction and feeling downtown last night was much different from what had been happening during the day, even the scuffle at Wayne and Fifth.
From Lily’s Bistro:
We don’t know who threw the brick through our window-but we witnessed two men with assault rifles (yes, open carry exists in Ohio, but why bring a flame to a powder keg?) assault a protester with their guns, and use nazi gestures.
We closed, despite it being a beautiful day where we were following best practices to keep staff and customers safe, because we couldn’t ask our staff to work when that was happening. Those guys scared us all.
We’ve been told to not ‘make things political.’ But at a point we have to say if you’re ok with endangering the lives of service industry workers, or if you’re ok with the way people of color are treated in this country, please don’t come to our business.
*edit based on asking- our Venmo is @emilyatlilys and anything raised over our cost to repair the window will be split between our staff and bail funds for protesters. And yes, many protesters (including one of our employees) were arrested for peaceful protest.*
https://www.facebook.com/lilysbistro/
Kay
@debbie:
I am certainly aware that getting rid of Trump and the low quality hires won’t “fix” the country. I know that. However, this is ONE situation where just one firing would have a hugely positive result. Send the Trump family packing and there’s immediate improvement. They make bad things worse.
Jinchi
Considering most of us are still hunkering down in quarantine, you could probably get a pretty good idea using the cell-phone tracking that Google and others have used to track the course of transmission after big events (like spring break in Florida and the Michigan protests) . Anarchists and Antifa would mostly stay local or return to other cities. Those headed to bunkers in the deep woods, probably RWNJ.
debbie
@trollhattan:
I would love to hear someone say that to a gun owner!
(Picturing Mike Myers’s Dieter: “Like a little girl!”)
germy
@Buckeye:
Ah! So Antifa then! /
Kirk Spencer
I’m thinking it might be time to remind everyone of Silverman’s advice for protestors (aka peaceful assembly and personal security).
Just as a personal piece of it, I’ve gotten a reputation for eccentricity in that I /always/ seem to have a writing implement with me. What’s not really caught attention is it’s a small point sharpie. Pretty much always.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I said yesterday that one of the Sunday shows could fill their whole hour with tweeted videos of black people trying to get white people to not vandalize shit in the name of Black Lives Matter. This one deserves some kind of special mention
Woke white girl really showed her privileged ass with her choice of verb there.
I can’t quite bring myself to link to the tweet that has Jelani Cobb saying “I miss the days when we were in it by ourselves”
Dorothy A. Winsor
Sign that things have changed?
germy
@Dorothy A. Winsor: No, he was talking about the citizens of Iraq rising up against their bad man
“Looting is a transition to freedom” Rumsfeld said, back in those days
Also, “Democracy is messy.”
Mike in NC
Fat Bastard got to where he is by preying on the bigotry of old white people. By stirring up their fear and hatred of The Other (Muslims, Mexicans, etc.) with an assist by Putin. He’s trying it again because he has nothing to lose.
Aziz, light!
All of this anarchist bullshit and any looting by anybody translates directly into votes for Trump, courtesy of suburban whites. Watch the polling gaps close as we draw closer to November.
debbie
@Dorothy A. Winsor:
He must be twilighting. (Or is it sundowning?)
Dorothy A. Winsor
@germy:
Well, that’s interesting! Apparently it only counts elsewhere. Thanks for the correction.
germy
@debbie: It’s a quote from 2003. He’s in favor of protests and looting in Iraq. As Ms. Winsor said, it only counts elsewhere.
debbie
@germy:
Thanks. It seemed too much of a philosophical change.
Benw
No, not in NYC. There were peaceful protests and then outbreaks of police violence and then shit escalated. But we have personal experience from being in Brooklyn on Friday that the cops clearly intended violence without warning and continue to escalate violence even in peaceful neighborhoods outside of the protest areas.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Aziz, light!:
Not saying you’re wrong, but that is/was going to happen anyway, and it’s way too early to know what else is going to happen in the next week, much less the next five months.
Penn
Antifa is a thing you do, not a thing you are. If you are fighting fascists you are antifa. If you are randomly burning things you are not.
Ruckus
@Kay:
I think there is the issue that I’d bet that a percentage of cops do not like the press taking pictures of them beating the crap out of people. The press gets in their way of doing what ever illegal thing they want to do. Yes it’s rather insane, what with basically everyone having a camera with them these days.
germy
Ukai
Cops in Minneapolis are still out of control. They fired into a crowd that was peacefully memorializing George Floyd at the murder site, and also still went after people in medic’s tents.
Roger Moore
@Mary G:
What they’re forgetting is that the Democrats were the incumbents in 1968, so they took the blame for the riots. It’s unclear why pandemic, riots, and depression are supposed to make undecided voters decide to reelect Trump.
JMG
I have no idea what the political effect of this weekend will be and I’m pretty sure nobody else does either. In Boston, demonstrations were peaceful and kind of small. There was a demonstration, small and quite peaceful, in Hyannis on Cape Cod. I think it’s very clear that the daytime protests are better organized and attract way fewer people, whoever they are, just looking for trouble.
PS: I know this is not humorous, but I saw a twitter headline yesterday that announced a police car had been overturned in Philadelphia. Couldn’t help thinking, “did you see what happened when the Eagles won the Super Bowl?”
Suzanne
I hate-read Dreher this morning. I don’t know what’s going to kill him with vapors first, trans people or Antifa. I’m sure you’re shocked to hear that “the mob” offends his delicate sensibilities, at least when “the mob” is people he doesn’t like.
PJ
@germy: Rumsfeld on why US forces would not stop the looting of antiquities: “A free people are free to do bad things.”
At the time, I figured that, if they hadn’t realized this before, this was the time when the average Iraqi realized that the US was not interested in establishing a civil society or in the welfare of Iraqis whatsoever, and that it was every man for himself.
LeftCoastYankee
At some point some city will realize funding an armed organization who believe their primary function is to “control” riots caused by their own actions is kind of fucking insane.
Chris Johnson
@dimmsdale: This, a thousand times. Prove they’re not undercover cops, before blithely calling them ‘antifa’ and lining up with Trump’s PR machine. What the hell is wrong with you?
Also, paid trained agitators are not TOURISTS
Matt McIrvin
@Kay: New Orleans is another one.
Librarian
@Roger Moore:
I don’t think it matters who is incumbent and who’s not; the theory is that Republicans always benefit from riots and violence.
Matt McIrvin
@oatler.: As far as I can tell, the actual bloodshed (as opposed to property damage and theft) was almost all committed or instigated by police and some right-wing lunatics. If it’s a bloody civil war it’s pretty one-sided.
Matt McIrvin
@JMG: I stayed in but looked for any reports of unrest in Haverhill–found none, but I did learn about a huge riot that happened here in 1915 because someone tried to give a lecture objecting to the Catholic Church’s position on public funding of parochial schools.
Baud
@Matt McIrvin:
How many people have died? Fewer than the Last Vegas shooter so far, no?
Matt McIrvin
@Baud: Far fewer, as far as I know. Some people definitely maimed by the cops. Of course we’ll probably get some induced deaths from COVID-19 down the line (though I agree with my friend who argues that a COVID-19 spike is overdetermined by other stuff happening, and not all of the surge that will be blamed on the protest/riots will actually be caused by them).
The Pale Scot
I think you should check Martin’s post last night.
https://balloon-juice.com/2020/05/30/outside-agitators-2/#comment-7722348
download my app in the app store mistermix
@Chris Johnson: Just to restate what I said above: “Antifa” was the term used by the (black, Democratic) mayor of Rochester and the (black) Chief of Police. I don’t know what intelligence they have to justify it. They could be wrong. But they probably know more than I do about it.
Roger Moore
@Villago Delenda Est:
I think a lot of these things are distinctions without nearly as much difference as people make it out to be. Most of the people in groups like antifa, black block anarchists, and right wing groups like the Proud Boys are just looking for a fight, and their ideology is just an excuse for finding one.
a thousand flouncing lurkers was fidelio
@Sab: Thanks—it’s the most accurate way I can describe them. I don’t know what their ends are, or if they’re just young, frustrated, and wilding.
Baud
I have no problem admitting that there are bad actors “on the left.” I’m not going to speculate about what percentage of the violence they are responsible for.
We should oppose all bad people regardless of their ideology.
Roger Moore
@Librarian:
Which is why GHWB rode the Rodney King riots to reelection in 1992.
August West
Bellingcat says it has so far identified at least 50 separate incidents where journalists have been attacked by law enforcement during the protests
h/t https://www.bellingcat.com/news/americas/2020/05/31/us-law-enforcement-are-deliberately-targeting-journalists-during-george-floyd-protests/
Sherrod Brown / @sensherrodbrown: Journalists should not be targeted by the police, period. They are the beating heart of our democracy’s free press. Make no mistake – this disrespect towards journalists starts at the top, with a President who has demonized them for years as the “enemy of the people”.
Suzanne
@Baud:
Truth, but also I think we need to keep the focus where it belongs: on cops who abuse their power and kill black people. Looting a Target is a footnote in this story.
West of the Cascades
Some people do both – and at least here in Portland, people “are” antifa – they identify as that to fight fascists. And sometimes, in past counter-protests, after fighting the fascists, they’ve randomly burned shit and smashed windows.
ETA: Rose City Antifa have existed since 2007 (https://rosecityantifa.org/), and I’m not exactly being critical of them here — I support how in-the-face of fascists and racists that hold rallies in our city they are. But the same impulses that can make someone get in the face of fascists can lead the same person to randomly burn shit. My experience was seeing a couple of RCA members setting fire to a plastic newspaper box a couple of hours after a Patriot Prayer rally (maybe they just preferred the Willamette Week over the Portland Mercury).
Kathleen
@debbie: I totally agree with you debbie. Too many powerful people would benefit from a race war.
Kathleen
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: Is your daughter OK? It sounds like Cincinnati protests followed the national model – 5 hour peaceful demonstration followed by violence at nightfall. Cincy police chief said (about Friday night) that all of the people arrested were from out of state.
Omnes Omnibus
@Kathleen: No one would benefit from a race war. Some people may think that they would, but they are wrong. No one would benefit from a race war.
germy
Elizabelle
@germy: No.
We have a Terrorist/Arsonist squatting in the Oval Office.
I am starting to really, really hate him.
Cacti
Morbidly amusing:
Old white dude in UT tries to play out his Rambo fantasies and gets out his hunting bow to shoot protesters.
Then promptly gets his ass beat.
(Warning: graphic)
The best part? Bow and arrow guy yelled “All lives matter!” before he was getting ready to shoot someone.
PsiFighter37
@germy: Fuck that clown.
Benw
@Suzanne: agreed. The underlying police culture of unaccountability and violence towards black people and other minorities is the fundamental problem that must be addressed.
Feathers
Can I nominate the term “maybefa”? Realizing that it sounds better than it reads.
My favorite aftermath was someone posting from Minneapolis. There were four photos of a trio of miserable looking doughy white teen boys. I thought I had tagged it, but apparently not. The gist was that these kids from Wisconsin had been found looting. They were stopped by the legit protestors forced to had over their phones and call their moms, whereupon the protestors told mom what they were up to. Apparently, the mothers were furious. Hence, the miserable faces.
This is the most brilliant thing ever.
Feathers
@Cacti: The worst was that the police let him go and he proceeded to give a press conference completely lying about what had happened to him. That two black men beat him up. It’s going to be all over the right wing sites forever. The real footage will be declared fake. He doesn’t seem to be bright enough to have planned this, so I don’t know what is going on.
Benw
@Cacti: couldn’t ask for clearer evidence that “all lives matter” really means “no black lives DON’T actually matter”. Fuck “all lives matter”
dman
Why is everyone insisting ANTIFA are the culprits? The action of the extremists are more BLACK BLOC ANARCHISTS.
There is a huge difference between them
Kathleen
@Omnes Omnibus: I agree with you in reality no one wins in a race war. At the same time, I felt Republicans definitely leveraged white people’s fear resulting from riots in ’67 & ’68 which, in addition to the Vietnam War, were the driving forces in defeating Humphrey in 1968 and The Southern Strategy code words “Law and Order”.
Suzanne
@Benw: Yeah, this is the critical point that is getting lost in discussions about which jackasses are responsible for destruction of property. That is low on my list of concerns.
Sloane Ranger
Why does it have to be either/or? Surely it can be both. White supremacists want their race war. More politically sophisticated ones could see riots and disorder, apparently committed by black people, as a way of blunting the impact of Mr Floyd’s, and others too numerous to list, murder and lead to a law and order backlash among suburban women, who were beginning to look wobbly for Trump.
At the same time, Anti capitalists and anarchists see any mass protest as an opportunity to strike a blow for the revolution and trash the property of some capitalist exploiters as a fringe benefit.
Omnes Omnibus
@Kathleen: Leveraging fear from a few riots into political success is simply not the same winning in a race war. And, further, let’s not let the rhetoric of a number of lunatics cloud the conversation. This is about oppressed people demanding justice and the police overreacting in response.
different-church-lady
@dman: The vast majority of “everyone” is very bad at distinctions, even huge ones.
August West
h/t https://www.yahoo.com/gma/no-blame-abc-news-finds-36-cases-invoking-080100960–abc-news-topstories.html
Ruckus
@debbie:
I believe that there is more going on as well. Too much seemingly coordinated response from both sides – police and white rioters/looters, too many embedded cops, too much immediate damage so that it looked like the black protesters were responsible, too much assaulting the media, and all of this in too many cities. Even the kick off event, the killing of George Floyd, seemed to be part of the set up, from the look of the video. The reports seem to be saying that the original protesters were, for the vast majority, peaceful, respectful. So why did all the carnage occur?
different-church-lady
@germy: Is Antifa even an actual organization? It would be like declaring “The American Preppers Movement” a terrorist organization. Or “Dairy Farmers in the Northwest who don’t use GMOs”.
debbie
@Feathers:
Yep, no greater deterrence than an angry mom!
Omnes Omnibus
@different-church-lady: Don’t give him any ideas.
Geminid
I’m wondering how this is going in Atlanta. Do any Atlanta area jackals feel like reporting?
Ruckus
@Leto:
Correction, white hoods.
I’ve actually seen a real white hood and robe in a business in rural SC. This was 30 yrs ago but I’d bet money that it’s still there. I was there with a friend, who is now a trumper BTW and we don’t talk. It was not out in the open, the owner did however make sure we saw it in the course of our visit. And yes we were told it had been used as intended.
Matt McIrvin
@different-church-lady: Right, “antifa” is just a name. There have been black-bloc smashy groups that use it, but most I’ve seen lately were groups that just confront Nazis and keep the peace at counter-demonstrations. They were doing entirely admirable things when the bad guys demonstrated in Boston after Charlottesville.
Ruckus
@Jinchi:
Does it actually matter? They are turning what was supposed to be and mostly was, a peaceful protest, into a riot. Is the name or the group important in some way other than they are not the original protesters and it’s obvious by their actions and skin color.
Sister Golden Bear
@Roger Moore: As Martin pointed out in his comment last night,
https://balloon-juice.com/2020/05/30/outside-agitators-2/#comment-7722348
there are important differences, although they can blurry because they’re overlapping groups. Here in the Bay Area:
Antifas take a defensive posture to protect protesters, although if attacked (by right-wingers, police, etc.) they can and will fight back.
Black Bloc folks engage in offensive political violence, but in theory tend to be more selective, i.e. they’ll damage corporate chain stores, but leave locally-owned ones alone. However, in the Bay Area, there’s a pretty close Venn diagram with the
Anarchists who just want to fuck shit up and cause chaos, with the supposed goal of collapsing the system. They’ve been hijacking protests locally for more than three decades (I remember them for back in college).
Then there’s the Proud Boys, neo-Nazis, etc. who’ve been impersonating antifas and Black Bloc folks to 1) disguise themselves, 2) infiltrate the peaceful protesters and then attack them, 3) do things to discredit the protesters, antifas and Black Blocs.
Police undercover officers and agent provocateurs have also been cosplaying antifas and Black Bloc folks.
Butter Emails
@Ruckus:
Umm. Yes, identifying the groups and individuals actually responsible for violently undermining the protests is important.
different-church-lady
I just hope Biden eats his Wheaties, because he’s gonna be working non-stop for his entire term just to mop all this shit up.
Kathleen
@Omnes Omnibus: I’m not really disagreeing with what you are saying about what we are witnessing now. What I am saying is that there are elements in this society who would love to ratchet current situation up into a race war which would also include martial law. Not saying they will succeed. Not saying it’s inevitable. I’m just there are forces in society that would like to see this happen.
Martin
@different-church-lady: Sorta. I mean, members do communicate. There is a sense of ‘joining’ antifa, and antifa does have leaders that call to action.
But it’s very, very loose. A ‘member’ may simply be someone who is willing to go out when the white supremacists show up, and looking at Charlotte, that turns out to be a LOT of people who wouldn’t consider themselves part of antifa, they do it because it seems like the decent thing to do and they see it as a kind of self-defense.
But I doubt these were antifa actions. Antifa is pretty focused, relatively speaking. This is much more like black bloc, which exists all around the world – I think it originated in Germany. Anti-globalists, anti-capitalists, pro-civil rights, pretty focused on pushing back against state abuse – so when the police show up looking like a paramilitary group, black bloc wants to be there to throw the teargas back at them.
But conservatives need an analogue to white supremacist groups aligned with the left that they can both-sides, and they’ve chosen antifa for that role, and label anything as antifa even if it doesn’t look remotely like an antifa action (my experience with antifa is that they’re more like guardian angels willing to throw down – as someone who grew up when guardian angels formed and hit the streets – and were demonized similarly because they were primarily made up of POC and doing the law enforcement work that government didn’t want to do because doing it would have protected POC). And antifa isn’t really aligned with Democrats. To argue that antifa is anti-conservative is to argue that conservatives are fascists.
I wouldn’t even refer to these as ‘antifa-types’. I’d call them black bloc groups (I like Josh Marshall’s description here: “white left radicals doing the same to advance their own vision of liberatory social violence” – I’d say that’s right on the nose). They may not even be doing most of the violence, but they’d be taking advantage of the situation to escalate things, knowing that once the ball gets rolling, it’s not uncommon for normal people to join into activities that they wouldn’t otherwise participate in. I’m sure there are other agents in the mix – white supremacist groups, maybe police – that is something we’ve seen before – infiltrating peaceful protest groups, labor groups, and then initiating violence, letting it escalate, and then getting out. Occasionally they get caught – a union protest in Canada that was infiltrated had the union members pushing the police to arrest the infiltrators, which they were ultimately forced to do, and it was clear the police knew they were infiltrators (still wearing their work shoes, no less) and the police eventually had to own up to it because they weren’t going to be any prosecutions.
So yes, it definitely happens.
Chip Daniels
Here in downtown, the violent rioters were almost exclusively young white men.
Their political orientation doesn’t matter.
Because they aren’t actual political activists, meaning people who are committed to a cause and work towards a goal. We never see these people at voting drives or townhalls or planning sessions.
The only political action they have is breaking windows, which was their only goal. The slogans they chant while they break windows is just dressing.
cain
@download my app in the app store mistermix:
So I don’t think it is anti-fa – anti-fa shows up when fascists show up. They don’t show up on their own.. eg if proud boys show up – the antifa show up.
This element is the anarchists – these assholes have been showing up for every liberal protest for decades. They sneak in when protestors march and then cause mayhem. The only march they don’t show up for? Women’s marches and conservative ones.
The conservative ones are not particularly destructive and it would look wierd since they can’t blend in because those folks are old.. the women’s march – if they tried shit they get smacked fast.
ETA – looks like Martin and Sister Golden Bear have already weighed in. I didn’t know about black bloc – but here in sunny portland – it’s always been the anarchists. Assholes one and all. It’s fine to gather in a place and protest, but it’s when you start marching from one place to another – that’s when they show up. You practically have to train marchers how to spot these assholes and crush them.
cain
@Kay:
The press should now use their power – because we are in fact heading in that direction. They need to stop playing the two sides, horse race angle – and actually push back against their own corporate people who encourage this shit – because there won’t be a real press if Trump gets another term.
Martin
@Jinchi:
So, this came up in my training – how do we tell them apart. And the answer given to us is to take a big step back from that question, because it’s a dangerous question. Conservatives right now are saying ‘how do we tell the difference between a peaceful BLM protestor and a looter if they both look the same’ (eg. black). They said to not worry what they look like, but focus on what their motivations might be, and whether they align to the situation.
This situation doesn’t align to antifa’s goals, so it’s probably not them. How do we know these aren’t violent anti-abortionists (who are also white) – because this doesn’t advance their interests. But this is right in line with what black bloc exists for, so it would be surprising if they didn’t show up for this.
Understand that the most common violent leftist group that we deal with at work are the Animal Liberation Front. They don’t look any different from antifa or black bloc when they engage in a mass action (which they rarely do), but they target animal testing, etc. You know it’s them or one of the other related groups by what’s being focused on. Black bloc will set fire to a biotech firm that does animal testing simply because of their anti-capitalist motivations, but if it’s only biotech being targeted, it’s probably not them – it’s probably someone like ALF.
None of these groups are going to have a membership card you can check, and there’s a certain amount of spill-over between them, but they don’t do violence for the sake of violence – they do it to advance an agenda. See what agenda is being advanced here. Its easy to believe that white supremacists are in this mix because their goal is to get white folks like us to turn on the black community believing they are violent, so they are motivated to initiate that violence.
Part of what is worth exploring is why so many agendas are being advanced by burning down a police station, when really, it should advance very few.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
sweet jesus, somebody handed Princess Grifterella a bible
On the one hand, I can’t believe it took this long, on the other hand… sweet jesus, somebody handed Grifterella a bible
Ruckus
@Butter Emails:
My point is that in this instance they didn’t do that, the secondary people were the rioters. And how can you identify them as any one group if they all do the same illegal things? How do the police tell, if they wanted to differentiate? Uniforms? Patches? Tats? Who they are beating up? What buildings they are destroying/burning? None of which changes that they are doing illegal stuff in the name of? The violent “good” guys are still violent. Are they saving lives? Or getting their violence on? It creates a reason for the police to be more violent, and most of them don’t seem to need that and their lack of control isn’t made better by the increased violence.
Villago Delenda Est
@Roger Moore: There is that, too, but the right wing has been plotzing over “antifa” for years now, as if being anti-fascist is a BAD THING.
Villago Delenda Est
@cain: The MSM is pandemically infested with the vile disease, a cancer, that is Broderism. It must be eradicated. It’s destroying them and they’re not aware of it, because they’re so focused on ratings/clicks etc.
Martin
@cain: You have a good black bloc presence in Portand. Black bloc are anarcho-socialists. In a lot of things, we agree on ideological goals. They’re pro-labor union, etc. But they tend to believe in a bottom up social state where citizens have more power than the state. So, they like the idea of workers being able to strike for better working conditions than for a communist style central state dictating wages, etc. They’ll be pretty closely aligned with Bernie and AOC in terms of politics, but they also believe that the nations institutions are captured by corporate interests, are not susceptible to electoral change, and need to be removed by force. So probably a lot of agreement in terms of goal, if not much agreement in terms of methods.
They don’t really see the destruction of property as a problem, because they would generally want to see that property return to the commons. What do they care if some shareholders lose some value?
They aren’t there to undermine you, they agree with your goals (to a degree). They just wish you’d stop being so passive, trusting that an election will actually change anything, and realize that throwing a brick through McConnells window will do more than turning out 10,000 more voters. (I don’t agree with that, but that’s their viewpoint).
I guess my point is, don’t let Trump and the Republicans demonize them beyond what they deserve to be criticized for, because they are trying to conflate liberalism with violence and if we hand over antifa or black bloc or BLM or any other group, we’re now helping them achieve that. If we turn this into a black/white situation, we lose – badly. I’ve quoted this before but it’s relevant here:
Antifa and black bloc and BLM and the Democratic party are all part of the cloud of anti-conservatism. If we sell each other out, we just strengthen conservatism.
Villago Delenda Est
@Omnes Omnibus: I’m not sure the police are “overreacting”. They are in mortal fear that their good gig of getting away with beating the shit out of people and even killing them might be endangered.
Villago Delenda Est
@Martin: “The modern conservative is engaged in one of man’s oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.” — John Kenneth Galbraith
JaySinWA
@Martin: I am pretty sure the mislabeling of these rioters as AntiFa is deliberate disinformation, With Trump and Barr diving in headlong to create an enemy to save us from. Soros blaming can’t be far behind.
Sloegin
Seattle has been dealing with a mix of WA and OR anarchists trying to trash the city annually or semi-annually since the WTO demonstrations in 1999. Black Bloc mostly, and this was years before Antifa ever came into the public consciousness. There’s probably some overlap between the two, but this time it was also RW nut jobs getting into the mix as well to discredit the demonstrations. On the local news this morning a clip showed a trashed swanky retail store and next to it was spray-painted “fuck BLM”.
Martin
@Villago Delenda Est: I would temper that a bit. I would put libertarians as the selfish ones. Conservatives aren’t selfish with their own kind – that’s why they favor charitable giving – they want to control who gets helped by their tax dollars (mainly, people that look like them). The good thing about libertarians is that they sort of undermine their own effort because it’s hard to organize when your central philosophy is ‘fuck you, what’s in it for me’. Conservatives are much more dangerous because they are focused on building just large enough a coalition to get and keep power, but no larger, and whoever doesn’t make the cut is going to get a knee on their neck.
JaySinWA
@Ruckus: The deliberate misidentification of anti-fa(scists) and “radical left” as the only culprits is the problem. This is putting a target on opposition to fascism as criminal. It diverts the blame from boogaloo boys and black block.
something fabulous
@jayjaybear: what you said!
Ruckus
@JaySinWA:
I get that. But I follow MLK. Violence begets violence. Always.
As Martin posted above this way of life that shitforbrains is really trying to have has been the way of life for millennia. Violence has attempted to overthrow it numerous times and it’s still here. That conservative concept is the basis of our country. You have the more powerful senate, with it’s basis in land, not people. You get the judiciary through the senate. That’s why moscow mitch is doing his damndest to fill those seats, to retain the conservative policies. You want more people on your side you don’t take the other sides tactics to get there. That works in warfare, where you don’t mind or even encourage the destruction and death. It doesn’t in the attempt of changing a political culture because violence chasing violence is not really change. It’s violence for violence’s sake. This isn’t war, this shouldn’t be war, it shouldn’t be waged like war. This is politics, in it’s rawest form. This is the basis of a fair and just society, one that rules through betterment, not one that rules through violence or even it’s threat. Because that will always be the rule of those able to purchase the most violence. True change will not happen until that cycle is changed. I doubt that I will see this in my lifetime, it’s possible that none of us alive will see it. But the change is inevitable because the old way doesn’t work with this many people, with the communications that we now have so that people can see better what the real current governance is. shitforbrains is just saying the quiet parts out loud, crudely, which is what makes change possible, his ignorance allows many more to see the real goals his political stance desires and who exactly wants the same things he does. We have to insure that we elect people who desire not to have that continuation. And don’t mistake this for some misunderstanding of mine for our countries goals with it’s organization. As a wise man once said “Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.” We just need to adjust a few bits so that we have an actual democracy.
eddie blake
guys, antifa’s been around for a loong, long time. had a resurgence during the late eighties and early nineties in response to a bonehead surge. but yeah.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/43_Group
eddie blake
eddie blake
oy. i so don’t know how to make that work.