Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

This country desperately needs a functioning fourth estate.

Baby steps, because the Republican Party is full of angry babies.

Give the craziest people you know everything they want and hope they don’t ask for more? Great plan.

So many bastards, so little time.

The gop is a fucking disgrace.

Never entrust democracy to any process that requires Republicans to act in good faith.

Republicans don’t lie to be believed, they lie to be repeated.

I like political parties that aren’t owned by foreign adversaries.

“What are Republicans afraid of?” Everything.

They were going to turn on one another at some point. It was inevitable.

They love authoritarianism, but only when they get to be the authoritarians.

If you can’t control your emotions, someone else will.

Polls are now a reliable indicator of what corporate Republicans want us to think.

Never give a known liar the benefit of the doubt.

Sadly, there is no cure for stupid.

The unpunished coup was a training exercise.

It’s all just conspiracy shit beamed down from the mothership.

Perhaps you mistook them for somebody who gives a damn.

Fight for a just cause, love your fellow man, live a good life.

Yeah, with this crowd one never knows.

It’s always darkest before the other shoe drops.

These are not very smart people, and things got out of hand.

“Everybody’s entitled to be an idiot.”

Narcissists are always shocked to discover other people have agency.

You are here: Home / Open Threads / Post Debate Open Thread: Suddenly It Was All About The Eye and The Fly

Post Debate Open Thread: Suddenly It Was All About The Eye and The Fly

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ETA: Check out the link at the bottom. LOL

Carry on…

Reader Interactions

300Comments

  1. 1.

    Anne Laurie

    For an old guy who’s famously ‘not social -media savvy’, Joe Biden has a stellar media team!

  3. 3.

    lamh36

    Micheal Steele proving again that he’s always gonna find a way to not always come off harsh w/anyone but Chump.

    He was soft on Pence because if not for Chump he AND the Never-Trumpers would be FINE with Pence as POTUS.

    Talking bout he gonna “give points to both sides”..

    GTFOH

    Thank goodness for Nicole Wallace pushing back on that bullshit

  5. 5.

    lollipopguild

    Trump and Pence are what they are(and so many more) and they are incapable of changing because they are never wrong. One of my brothers in law was like this-always right even  when  he knew he was dead wrong.

  6. 6.

    RaflW

    This damnable Debate Commission needs to be blasted into the sun. Every four years, we’re reminded what a useless, flabby process we have to seeing our politicians outside the context of advertising or set speeches. And they’re largely useless (though Trump telling the Leather Boys to ‘stand by’ was, umm, informative).

  9. 9.

    Kay

    Matt Ford
    @fordm
    · 39m
    Genuinely fascinating that Biden and Harris won’t answer the court-packing question.

    Genuinely fascinating that Pence and Trump won’t answer the preexisting conditions question or the overturn abortion question and yet every media person focuses on “court packing” which no normie voter gives a shit about.
    Biden’s right. He doesn’t have to answer it because the only people who even know what it is are people who live on the internet.

  15. 15.

    NotMax

    I’ll concede that Pence did show great self-restraint in not flicking out his lizard tongue to snatch that fly.

  18. 18.

    TS (the original)

    Even on msnbc – the male commentator (Michael Steele, who praised pence) gets twice the speak time as does the lady (Clare McCaskill.)

  19. 19.

    Dagaetch

    I bet some of the Washington media types will reply to that Biden tweet lamenting that he is making fun of what was clearly out of Pence’s control. Sigh…

  20. 20.

    WaterGirl

    @Punchy:

    Pence looks like he has pink eye, which can be a symptom of COVID.

    Pence also had a fly land on his head, and he didn’t brush it away, and it seemed like it was there forever before it finally flew away.

  21. 21.

    Baud

    @Kay:

    Exactly right.  The only real people who care are die hard Republicans who we’re not going to get anyway.

    In the past, some Dems might have cared because we value institutions but McConnell has taken a sledgehammer to that.

  23. 23.

    Adam L Silverman

    @RaflW: They need to turn it back over to The League of Women Voters and let them run them. And the moderators should not be from the broadcast, cable, and/or print news media.

  24. 24.

    jayjaybear

    @Punchy: 

    Pence appears to have conjunctivitis (pink-eye), which is an early symptom of COVID. Also, a housefly used his hair for a landing strip at one point tonight.

  25. 25.

    sdhays

    Dense is pretty good at this format. He has a huge number of lies packed into his mannequin head and is able to talk in something like linked sentences. He’s like Mitt Romney. But his performance was a total failure, and I think that’s because the campaign had no strategy going into it. Back in 2012 when Mitt Romney lied all over Obama in the first debate, Biden got things back on track by cleaning Paul Ryan’s clock. The Dump/Dense campaign needed that kind of performance, and Dense utterly failed.

    Kamala’s answers and retorts were so good. It’s like she wrote them out beforehand and put them through an editorial process. And she ended on time most of the time and pushed through when she needed to complete an important point. It was master class.

    I agree that no one’s going to remember this after tomorrow, and that’s a great place to be for a campaign polling ahead by double digits nationally and well ahead in a majority of the electoral college.

  26. 26.

    jl

    I didn’t watch the whole thing because Pence was so vile, in his smug phlegmatic way.

    Apparently Pence will be along side Trump, barricaded in the WH if they lose, depending on their vigilantes to protect them.

    From parts I saw, I was frustrated that Harris didn’t go after Pence more. But, OTOH, from what I read, no one cares about the VP debate in itself. Surely no one cares about Pence politically. Harris did very well against Trump and Trumpism, and that is  more important than my satisfaction at seeing Harris pulverize Pence. She did a lot of damage, but no pulverization, debate-wise, IMHO. Whatever wins the election is fine with me.

    Also, much better chance Harris gets more quotes and free media out this than Pence, other than maybe some clips and commentary on Pence pulling a slothlike boor act, aping Trump. Maybe after two fails they’ll realize that it is not working out like the think. I won’t hold my breath, though.

  27. 27.

    chrisanthemama

    My husband came upstairs where I was yelling at the TV to close the windows so the neighbors wouldn’t call the cops on me yelling.  Pence is infuriating in his smarmy lying.  I missed the fly, though.

  29. 29.

    Avalune

    @Punchy: Pence appeared to have pink eye which led to much speculation about whether he has covid. And a fly landed right on him and just hung out there for a while which led to many memes and people saying flies know shit when they see it.

  33. 33.

    savingprivateeaity

    My wife needs an SME to correspond briefly about her PICO question for her BSN program, and this is fertile ground, so here goes …

    PICO Question: For high school students (P), are teenage pregnancy rates lower (O) when students receive a comprehensive sexual education course (I) versus students who receive only the abstinence-only education (C)

  36. 36.

    sanjeevs

    Team Trump going around infecting their staff, their security details, assistants, reporters etc will dominate the news for the next four weeks.

    The debate doesnt matter.

  38. 38.

    Baud

    @jl:

    Kamala was going to play it safe.  They’re well ahead, so she wasn’t going to take a risk with being aggressive.

  39. 39.

    dmsilev

    This is a strategy for the Republicans to win the Insect-American vote? Unfortunately for the GOP, the only ones who are old enough to register are the cicadas, and they’re asleep right now.

  41. 41.

    jl

    Flies know where to land, they are superb at their craft. We don’t like it, but it’s true. That’s all I’ll say.

  45. 45.

    BruceFromOhio

    Fifty clams to the Biden thermometer. Nice to see ActBlue comfortably over seven billion dollars.

    @sanjeevs:

    Maybe, maybe not. Didn’t move the needle, but gives the talking heads something to talk about until the next blunder from preznit shitwhistle.

    I’m grateful for Senator Harris.

  48. 48.

    jl

    @Baud: Yes, standard head to head VP devastating debate win isn’t that important. Harris helped the Biden-Harris ticket and that’s the bottom line.

    Though IMHO, Harris did win, to be clear about that.

  54. 54.

    Kay

    Alex Burns
    @alexburnsNYT
    · 13m
    second consecutive debate in which a member of the GOP ticket declined to embrace overturning Roe and banning abortion in explicit terms, even though it is a stated goal of their party and, for one of the candidates at least, a lifelong personal cause

    But the big unanswered question here is “court packing”, which arose two weeks ago, almost exclusively limited to the internet.

  55. 55.

    Adam L Silverman

    @zeecube: I have never read JK Rowling’s books, nor seen the movies. So I have only the faintest idea what you’re referring to.

  56. 56.

    Chbnna

    Trump has a droopy left eye in the latest video (Being talked about all over Twitter) and there was a large fly resting on Mike Pence’s hair (all white and therefore stood out) for some time during the debate. @Punchy:

  58. 58.

    WaterGirl

    @sanjeevs: I don’t think Pence will admit it if he is COVID positive, but if he is, I don’t think they will be able to hide it because campaign staff and staff at this debate location will be coming down with it.

  59. 59.

    Immanentize

    Susan Page :. “What will you do if Trump refuses to leave office?”

    What will you do, Susan?  What will you do?  Say “thank you” like you did to Pence all night long?

    I’m a bit pissed about that Q

  62. 62.

    dmsilev

    I doubt this debate will change many, if any at all, minds. Not like last week’s clusterfuck, when apparently some of the undecided voters came out from  the rocks they’ve been hiding under and got a good long look at Trump Unfiltered. Or, quite likely, next week’s clusterfuck.

  63. 63.

    NotMax

    Dragging this up from downstairs.

    Pence totally came across as the kid who pesters the teacher that he/she forgot to assign homework.

  64. 64.

    BruceFromOhio

    @Avalune: there aren’t enough media budgets in all of history to hand you something like that for free. Rich fucks will be all “why does that matter,” while mere mortals will be all “eww.”

  69. 69.

    VOR

    @jl:Surely no one cares about Pence politically.

    Exactly. There is little upside to eviscerating Pence. If Trump loses, he’s not going to be the GOP nominee in 2024. He was on his way out as Governor of Indiana before Trump picked him as VP. No, Kamala needs to direct her fire on Trump. Attacking Pence is only useful as a way to attack Trump.

  73. 73.

    Ken

    @Baud: I’m sure the Trump campaign will be screaming about the Biden campaign knowing about the fly in advance, or perhaps training it.

    Now I’m trying to remember, something like that happened a few week-eons ago.  Biden’s team quickly put up an ad after some event, and someone on the Trump media team accused them of knowing about it in advance.  Ringing any bells?

  77. 77.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Ken: I’m all the way through. Given that they paid Scott Walker to prep Pence, Pence was, minus the physical signs of potential illness, what I expected.

  79. 79.

    sdhays

    @Immanentize: I know, right? What are we going to do? We’ll assume office on January 20, 2021 whether the orange cow “accepts” it or not.

    Kamala handled it just right.

  84. 84.

    lamh36

    Anderson Cooper: Harris “had a smile on her face and he had a bloody eye and a fly on his head.”

  85. 85.

    Ken

    @sdhays: Yes, and she showed why I wouldn’t make a good politician.  My inclination would have been to say “There are a number of people in this country who think they are president. For the most part they are well cared for in a safe environment. I’m certain that Mr. Trump would receive the best of treatment.”

  89. 89.

    Ken

    @Cheryl Rofer: It’s Nixon sweating all over again.  This is going to be the only takeaway from the debate, so we might as well start arguing over whether it is good or bad for the Trump campaign.

  94. 94.

    dmsilev

    From the Posts’s professional speaker-to-Republicans,

    Vulnerable Republicans are beginning to distance themselves from Trump
    The GOP may have fly support, but the rats are starting to bail out.

    Vulnerable Republicans are beginning to distance themselves from President Trump’s dismissive response to the coronavirus pandemic and his dramatic termination of negotiations with congressional Democrats over federal economic relief, with the latest cracks carrying enormous implications for Trump and the party with just four weeks until Election Day.

    Facing a political reckoning as Trump’s support plummets and a possible blue tsunami looms, it is now conservatives and Trump allies who are showing flashes of discomfort with the president, straining to stay in the good graces of his core voters without being wholly defined by an erratic incumbent.

    For some Republicans, the 11th-hour repositioning may not be enough to stave off defeat. But the criticism, however muted, illuminates the extent of the crisis inside a party that is growing alarmed about its political fate and confused by Trump’s tweets and decision-making.

  97. 97.

    Ken

    @Kent: Which is exactly what is wrong with twitter

    Exactly.  Now we have to wait days for one of them to get the blue check mark.

    (Or is that facebook?  I get all these monstrous privacy-violating corporations confused.)

  101. 101.

    Kay

    @Baud:

    I just don’t think the justices have the celebrity status political people think they do. I think most people couldn’t name one of them. I don’t blame them for this! If the thing is working right they shouldn’t have to think about it all the time. They have other things they want to think about and that’s permissible, even desirable.

  102. 102.

    lamh36

    James Carville gets it. The visuals were in Kamala favor. Pence grimaced alot and Kamala was calm, cool, collected and “pleasant” looking

  106. 105.

    Ken

    @Baud: “I have to agree, Baud. Before the debate there were questions whether Mike Pence was human, the fly has settled those. However it’s opened up a new issue, potentially damaging to the Trump campaign: Is Mike Pence dead?”

  108. 107.

    sdhays

    @Kay: A question that Dense was able to interject into the debate as a “surprise” and got schooled by Kamala. Kamala’s answer was a lot more memorable than the attack.

    “History lesson”

    “27 days – just like from today”

    “Abraham Lincoln”

    He clearly planned it, and she was actually better prepared.

  110. 109.

    Platonicspoof

    Just saw this editorial from New England Journal of Medicine. Twitter said it was six hours ago.

    “But, although it is impossible to project the precise number of additional American lives lost because of weak and inappropriate government policies, it is at least in the tens of thousands in a pandemic that has already killed more Americans than any conflict since World War II.”

  112. 111.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Ken: I think that there are a lot of women who are going to remember Pence trying to bulldoze Harris and they won’t have fond memories.  OTOH, if the fly becomes the main meme from this debate it is not good for the GOP.  So, in conclusion, Harris won in a romp.

  113. 112.

    Elizabelle

    @lamh36:   But still he Pencesplained.

    I was listening, not watching, so still gotta see this famous Utah fly.

    But:  well done, fly. And cartoonist.  That was fast!

  114. 113.

    lamh36

    @natasharothwell

    The needle Kamala threaded tonight as a black woman needs to be acknowledged. How we’re perceived is based on a short list of “permissible” behavior. She was strong, uncompromising and authentic without falling for bait meant to cast her as an “angry black woman.” I’m in awe.

    9:44 PM · Oct 7, 2020

    https://twitter.com/natasharothwell/status/1314033824720850947?s=20

     

    AMEN!

    THIS…THIS…AMEN!

    Thank you to Mayor Pete for acknowledging this historical weight.

  115. 114.

    greenergood

    End of debate Kamala and hubby have a big hug; Pants and Mother touch as if they’ve been electrocuted – just like Drump and Melonia post first debate. Sheesh – what is it with Repug couples?? Meanwhile Mango Moosilini is now saying Covid was a gift from God … his God is an odd God …

  118. 117.

    Kent

    @Immanentize:Susan Page :. “What will you do if Trump refuses to leave office?”

    What will you do, Susan?  What will you do?  Say “thank you” like you did to Pence all night long?

    I’m a bit pissed about that Q

    The correct answer:

    “Trump doesn’t leave office on January 20, 2021.  The office leaves him.   Are you, Susan, suggesting that a delusional Trump is going to hole up in the White House after January 20 and refuse to leave?  That we are going to have some presidential hostage crisis?  I suppose if that happens we’ll make sure he gets the help that he needs”

  120. 119.

    Bill Arnold

    Any entomologists among us to ID the species of fly? (Utah, which narrows it down.)

    (I blame autocorrect for the previous misspelling.)

  126. 125.

    Brachiator

    I did not watch the presidential debate, but I ended up listening to the VP debate on the radio. Didn’t realize that I missed the best part.

    The fly.

    The post debate discussion on my local public radio station is just stupid. Had to turn it off.

  127. 126.

    geg6

    @dmsilev:

    WTF?!?!?!?  IT’S BEEN FOUR YEARS OF THIS SHITSHOW AND THEY ARE STILL CONFUSED ABOUT HOW STUPID, SELFISH AND VENAL THAT MOTHERFUCKER IS?

    Sorry to yell, but I just can’t with their anonymous, cowardly shit another minute.

  129. 128.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Avalune: I saw on Twitter that it has a Covid test scheduled for tomorrow.  Also, thanking people for their thoughts and prayers.

  130. 129.

    jl

    @greenergood: “Meanwhile Mango Moosilini is now saying Covid was a gift from God ”

    I think just more evidence that Trump is stoned to the gills on the ‘roids. Very irresponsible for GOP to not relieve him of duties until he regains whatever shred of sanity he had before.

  131. 130.

    Ken

    @dmsilev: it is now conservatives and Trump allies who are showing flashes of discomfort with the president, straining to stay in the good graces of his core voters without being wholly defined by an erratic incumbent.

    Remind me, what is the Republican Party platform this year?

  134. 133.

    zeecube

    When Pence said that he and Trump have a plan to replace Obamacare, I had hoped either Harris or the moderator would have chimed in with, “what’s the plan, Mike?”  Seems that details of the “plan” are always just two weeks away

    Edit:  There is no plan.

  135. 134.

    jl

    @lamh36: I’ve read that a lot of research says that affect is as important as arguments in winning this type of political debate. So, something to it, even though I don’t judge debates the same way, and am therefore naturally skeptical of it.

  145. 144.

    Leto

    @zeecube: They’ve had four years, 12 if you count back to 2008. They haven’t had fuck all. Their plan is, don’t get sick. If you do, sucks to be you.

  147. 146.

    dmsilev

    @Ken:

    Remind me, what is the Republican Party platform this year?

    ‘Ein volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer’ pretty much covers it.

  148. 147.

    mrmoshpotato

    @rp:

    Savvy move by pence. Arthropods account for 80% of all animal species. 

    And just because they don’t have a faaaancy backbone doesn’t mean they don’t count!

  149. 148.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    @Adam L Silverman:

    They need to turn it back over to The League of Women Voters and let them run them. And the moderators should not be from the broadcast, cable, and/or print news media.

    I agree. Probably not going to happen though. Back in the 80s the Commission for Presidential Debates was created by both political parties (a case of actual Both Sides for once) because the League of Women Voters moderators actually asked tough, unexpected questions of the candidates

  150. 149.

    Aleta

    If we wanna save our home
    We need to get him out

    Who is this man
    In our house
    Who is this man
    Better get him out

    He had to have help
    How the hell he’d get in

    Robert Cray Band

  151. 150.

    trollhattan

    Swear to bog I had to rewind the fly landing and departure for five minutes. It was so obvious on the ironic glacier on Pence’s head I couldn’t hear a word and hoped it was glued in the hairspray.

    Reinforced my hatred of all things Pence and that’s about it.

  161. 160.

    Regine Touchon

    @WaterGirl: and why did we only learn about Amy Covid Barrett having the virus only after the super spreader in the ravished Rose Garden.

  162. 161.

    jl

    If Pence is diagnosed with covid later, that will backfire just as badly as Trump’s stunt did. Aside from the risk to others there on its own terms, which is also a huge issue.

    If Trumpsters were not very sure Pence was not infected, then it was an insane political risk as well as vile and depraved. Should have done the debate remotely. We’ll see what happens to Pence.

    Only thing worse than Pence is infected and gets sick, politically, is if we find out he’s asymptomatic or extremely mild case and tried to hide it. I can’t believe anyone would be so stupid and disgusting as to try that, but these are the Trumpsters.

  167. 166.

    jl

    uninvited campaign guest score card so far in last couple of cycles.

    Bernie gets a cute little birdie and he spreads his arms like St Francis

    Biden gets a roar from a muscle car and he ad libs a cheerful All-American husky shout-out.

    Pence gets a fly in his hair, and he doesn’t know what to do other than sit there.

    At this rate, I hope for more birds and bugs and street noise at the campaign events. They are telling us something about the two parties.

  168. 167.

    Humanities Prof

    @Ken:  I don’t think so. That appears to be an actual item that one may purchase from their actual campaign store.

    Really damn fast work.

  171. 170.

    BruceFromOhio

    @James E Powell: She’s gotta have a stack of skillets to throw at the candidates. If you can’t enforce the rules in a way that causes physical injury, rules are ignored by the cultists.

    You get a skillet in the face for not following the rules, you ain’t gonna do that twice.

  172. 171.

    mrmoshpotato

    @Ken:

    However it’s opened up a new issue, potentially damaging to the Trump campaign: Is Mike Pence dead?” 

    LMAO!

  175. 174.

    Calouste

    @James E Powell: I’d like to see a drill sergeant moderate the next debate. “Did anyone ask you something recruit trump? No? Why were you speaking? Gimme twenty!”

  176. 175.

    jl

    @lamh36: Harris got in quite a few pertinent sound bites. That’s important. Harris delivered some memorable short quotes that will be ‘out there’ now.

    Edit: and Harris can make things memorable, has a beat, you can dance to it. Trial experience maybe. Harris can be a master of delivery, especially compared to Pence.

  180. 179.

    Brachiator

    @James E Powell:

    Even right-wingers not longer care what Megyn Kelly says.

    Kelly didn’t realize that people only cared about what she said because she was associated with Fox News.

    The idiot executives who paid a bunch of money to hire her away from Fox didn’t realize this either.

  183. 182.

    dmsilev

    @Calouste: That would kill Trump; his heart would explode after one or maybe two.
    I find your ideas intriguing and wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

  185. 184.

    Ruckus

    Since the end of the debate ActBlue is going up over $1000/second. Again.

    Also since the first of the year I’ve lost over 7 1/2 weeks of work due to slow down. Not helping my retirement progress. Damn it.

  186. 185.

    Ken

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): That’s about as bad or worse as the Trump-Biden debate, isn’t it?

    I hope Pence scores better than Trump, just because it will make both of them miserable.  Trump directly, and Pence because Trump will yell at him.

  190. 189.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    @Adam L Silverman:

    I didn’t know who she was either. Had to look her up:

    Aubrey Christina Plaza (born June 26, 1984) is an American actress, comedian, and producer. She began her career performing improv and sketch comedy at the Upright Citizens Brigade Theater. She received further recognition for her starring role as April Ludgate on the NBC sitcom Parks and Recreation (2009–2015), and as Amahl Farouk / Shadow King and Lenny Busker in the FX drama series Legion (2017–2019).

    I guess she’s well known for starring in the comedy tv series Parks and Recreation

  191. 190.

    JaySinWA

    @Ken:

    I’m sure the Trump campaign will be screaming about the Biden campaign knowing about the fly in advance, or perhaps training it.

    The fly was a drone obviously. Debate prep 101.

  194. 193.

    jl

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):

    ‘ Wow. That’s about as bad or worse as the Trump-Biden debate, isn’t it? ‘

    We misoverestimated Pence’s real time political combat skills, clearly. On substance, i don’t think it would have been that lopsided.

    On the affect side, i wonder if fact that Pence clearly tried Trump’s nonstop toddler tantrum boor routine, and it backfired more in this debate than it did in Trump-Biden I. Pence comes off as an arrogant repressed twerp, who is fully in control of himself, in over repressed neurotic fashion. The first reaction to a few minutes of uninterrupted late-term Trump is that he is a clown shoe crackhead (turn of phrase which came of some focus group i think).

    The bully act may have been more repugnant from Pence than Trump. Pence looks like, and tries to act like, a grown-up with faculties intact.

  196. 195.

    Kay

    Dave Weigel, Re-Animator
    @daveweigel
    ·6m
    In 2016 the CNN snap poll gave it to Pence over Kaine, 48-42

    That’s funny. Mike Pence lost ground in the CNN snap poll :)
    A lot too!

  198. 197.

    Kent

    @oldgold:

    CNN poll:

    Harris 59 /Pence 38

    Debate Watchers

    Also, Harris’s favorability rating went up 7 points.  Pence’s remained flat.

  199. 198.

    jl

    @Ken: ” I hope Pence scores better than Trump, just because it will make both of them miserable. ”

    Pence won’t win either way. He get’s better marks, he’s disrespectful and stealing the Great Man’s spotlight. Worse: Pence is a disgusting loser, another flunky who let Trump down.

  201. 200.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    @Kay:

    Thanks! I was just wondering what the polling was re: VP debate in 2016. What a change, eh? I wonder what caused the erosion. Was it the pandemic and 4 years of Trumpism that clarified things for so many people? I don’t know if Pence did anything different compared to 4 years ago

  203. 202.

    lamh36

    @jnfr: @WaterGirl: that’s when I knew Kamala was killing it.  It was really ALL they had.

    Her performance will be historical regardless, so it being as good a performance as any VP debate or even more means ALOT

  204. 203.

    Kay

    @oldgold:

    I don’t know what people like anymore- I can say as a woman I am sick to death of the interrupting but I also know from my own life that is hard to verbally attack a man and not have some people think it’s overly aggressive or “mean”. It’s just really hard. A lot of times it’s women who think you’re too aggressive. I take no pleasure in saying that but it is true. She has a hard job. She did fine.

  206. 205.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    @Ken:

    I hope Pence scores better than Trump, just because it will make both of them miserable.  Trump directly, and Pence because Trump will yell at him.

    Haha, yes! I wish there was video of Pence getting screamed at by Trump, just to see a different expression on his face

  207. 206.

    jl

    Harris can maintain gravitas, dignity and calm. I like that. She had that nearly all the time I watched this debate. One thing I admire about her.

  208. 207.

    frosty

    @Adam L Silverman:  Mine neither. I can’t stand the “breaking the fourth wall” in both Parks and Rec and the Office. I like Amy Poehler, but Steve Carrell doesn’t do anything for me.
    YMMV of course.

  209. 208.

    Leto

    @Omnes Omnibus:  I didn’t see that, but I’ve seen her in a ton of other stuff. Not sure it helps Adam though. I think if it’s not in the DC wheelhouse, he’s not interested.

  211. 210.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    @NotMax:

    I just don’t want Biden to become infected. Harris is more likely to recover if she becomes symptomatic. I echo other people’s opinion that Pence was visibly sick with something

  212. 211.

    Kay

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):

    I don’t think Pence looks well. I mean it- he looks tired and annoyed and a little under the weather.

    It’s a horrible place to work. It has to suck. All they do is lie and dodge and they don’t trust one another. There’s no joy left in any of them- it’s all nasty bitterness. KellyAnne Conway doesn’t even fucking work there anymore and she’s attacking Biden on Twitter. Mean spirited.

  216. 215.

    jl

    @Kay: I’d be interested in focus group reactions. As noted above, I think the boor act might be more disgusting from Pence than Trump for everyone. Still could be true that women are more repulsed than men, though.

  219. 218.

    Ken

    @Leto: So which character from the DC universe would be the best debate moderator?  If they’re allowed to use their powers, I have to go with Wonder Woman because of the lasso.

  221. 220.

    debbie

    @Kay:

    A lot of times it’s women who think you’re too aggressive. I take no pleasure in saying that but it is true.

    Being undermined by another woman is the only thing worse than being mansplained at.

  223. 222.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    @jl:

    On the affect side, i wonder if fact that Pence clearly tried Trump’s nonstop toddler tantrum boor routine, and it backfired more in this debate than it did in Trump-Biden I. Pence comes off as an arrogant repressed twerp, who is fully in control of himself, in over repressed neurotic fashion. The first reaction to a few minutes of uninterrupted late-term Trump is that he is a clown shoe crackhead (turn of phrase which came of some focus group i think).

    The bully act may have been more repugnant from Pence than Trump. Pence looks like, and tries to act like, a grown-up with faculties intact.

    I think this hits the nail on the head. Pence stupidly tried to ape Trump’s bully boy act by interrupting the moderators/Harris. This time the dissonance between Pence’s sanctimonious  “Father Knows Best” affect and the bullying repelled people. He was also evasive and never answered the actual questions; only the questions he wanted to answer

  227. 226.

    cain

    @VOR: Exactly. There is little upside to eviscerating Pence. If Trump loses, he’s not going to be the GOP nominee in 2024. He was on his way out as Governor of Indiana before Trump picked him as VP. No, Kamala needs to direct her fire on Trump. Attacking Pence is only useful as a way to attack Trump.

    Pence stayed very close to the script. If she could have broken from it and made something that would have made the orange slimemold angry – that is the real win. Play for the one man watching and get him triggered.

    Triggering him distracts the campaign and the white house.

  228. 227.

    Avalune

    @Ken: I don’t know that she’d be the best but I’d enjoy seeing Harley bonking Pence with a giant hammer.

    @mrmoshpotato: Per Mr Urbaniak, Pink Eye and the Fly
    Yes, Pink Eye and the Fly
    One is a symptom, the other was larvae
    To prove their precedence, they’ll fuck with Michael Pence
    They’re Pink Eye and the Fly fly fly fly…

  230. 229.

    Leto

    @Ken:  I’ll be honest when I say I don’t know many of them. WW would be really good, even without her lasso. Poison Ivy would probably be the same way, as would a post Joker Quinn. Hawk Girl (Woman?) wouldn’t take their shit either, would probably hurl a mace at Trumpov/Pence’s head. They’d probably say “Mr Vice MOTHER” once, maybe twice, an then there’d be very quick/permanent correction.

  231. 230.

    frosty

    @Leto:  I don’t know. Mel Brooks can pull off breaking the 4th wall. I hadn’t thought of these shows as mockumentaries, but yeah, maybe that’s it.
    Spinal Tap as a mockumentary is completely different. These two are a sitcoms and I just don’t think it comes off.

  234. 233.

    mrmoshpotato

    @Yutsano: I wonder how many of those motherfuckers voted like their lives depended on it in 2016?

    As usual, fuck Rick Wilson, etal.

  235. 234.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Leto: If it isn’t hockey, rugby, baseball, or the Olympics, a cartoon or based on a cartoon or comic book, a DS9 rerun, or a documentary, then I don’t watch it

  236. 235.

    sdhays

    @Kent: Harris was just incredibly impressive. I said before that Dense is pretty good at this format, but he’s also not very bright and the campaign really doesn’t have much of a strategy. He needed to reset the campaign, because they are losing very badly right now. And the best he could do was talk and talk and talk with not that much to say and also try to put Kamala on the spot regarding “packing the court”.

    For Kamala, it was like she had Barack Obama’s time machine and went into the future to see exactly what the questions were going to be and what Dense was going to say. And then had a team of writers work it all out. Just stunning.

  238. 237.

    Adam L Silverman

    @gwangung: The show, from what I understand, basically writes most of the comic story around David McTaggart out of the show to the point where his name isn’t even David McTaggart. So I never bothered to watch it.

  239. 238.

    frosty

    @Leto: A few shows. My kid living at home watches The Office a lot. I’ve seen a few, maybe without Steve Carrell I could watch more. The P&R ensemble never clicked.

  240. 239.

    Steeplejack

    @lamh36:

    Yeah, Steele was both-sidesing the hell out of it. I don’t think he’s experiencing a Jennifer Rubin epiphany any time soon.

  241. 240.

    Kay

    Matt McDermott
    @mattmfm
    ·52s
    Favorability ratings of the VP candidates, before and after the debate, according to the CNN post debate poll:
    Kamala Harris: 56% → 63%
    Mike Pence: 41% → 41%

    She killed this CNN poll.

  243. 242.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): Fist two seasons sucked. Seasons 3 through 7 are watchable with, depending on the season, more or less very good to excellent episodes. The cast is by and large excellent as an ensemble and play welled against each other especially once they jettisoned the guys behind the scenes after season 2 that were causing issues. If one of the episodes I really like is on, then I’ll watch it.

  244. 243.

    sdhays

    @Kay: I’m reminded that when Kamala was briefly surging in the Democratic primary last year, team Dump started crapping their pants. And they still underestimated her.

  246. 245.

    Leto

    @Adam L Silverman: So there’s a good chance you don’t watch any form of TV for months, to years, at a time. I’d make a pitch for Parks and Rec because it’s a show that focuses on local government, and the comedy that comes out of that. Season 1 is them trying to find their footing, but they retool in season 2 and it only gets better. You also get a chance to see pre/post Guardians of the Galaxy Chris Pratt. There’s your comic book tie in. Also I don’t care that it’s a Marvel property, there’s your comic tie in! (Plus they do a Batman episode, so there’s another)

  248. 247.

    TS (the original)

    @mrmoshpotato:

    Yep – I watched some of their “after the debate” on youtube. Tuned out when they started talking about how you can never get rid of fossil fuels & Hillary upset all the coal miners.

  249. 248.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Leto: I can’t stand Chris Pratt and I can’t stand what they’ve done with the Peter Quill character to bring it in line with the asshat character that Gunn created for the film.

  250. 249.

    Eolirin

    @Adam L Silverman: Legion’s name was never David MacTaggart? He was David Haller in the comics and David Haller in the show. Not Moira’s kid in either.

    But yes, the show did not stick to comic canon at all. There are some ups and downs to that especially in the latter seasons, but it would have probably been a worse show if it had.

  251. 250.

    Kattails

    Haven’t even gotten through half the comments but would just like to note that a day or two ago I mentioned in one of the pre-debate threads that I always visualize Pence with glowing red eyes.  Just sayin’.

  253. 252.

    Leto

    @frosty: P and R season 1 was unbalanced. They retooled it for season 2 and it was a lot better moving forward, especially Amy Poehler’s character. Kind of the same in regard with The Office; s1 and 2 were direct copies of the BBC version, with the story/characters becoming better once they broke free of that. But if it’s not your thing, it’s not your thing. Plenty of other good stuff out there.

  254. 253.

    Brachiator

    @lamh36:

    Her performance will be historical regardless, so it being as good a performance as any VP debate or even more means ALOT

    This morning some radio host pulled a statistic suggesting that the presidential candidate often wins when their VP choice wins his or her debate.

    I think that Harris did very well.

    ETA: GOP strategists previously tried to plant the idea that Harris was ultra-ambitious and would run over “Sleepy” Joe. However, Harris did a great job of being the champion for Joe Biden and in reminding viewers how much better a choice he is compared to Trump.

    A lot of Pence’s support of Trump seemed mechanical and insincere. But he was doing what he had to do.

  255. 254.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    @Adam L Silverman:

    That’s my take on TNG, too. Do you have an opinion on the new Trek shows? I know a minority of fans love to go on about how Star Trek Picard isn’t “real Star Trek” and the Orville is; how Alex Kurtzman is taking a big dump on “Gene’s Vision” by not depicting the Federation as the near-utopia it was in TNG all for a “political agenda”; that it’s too “grimdark”; that Patrick Stewart never really understood “TNG” or Picard as a character as evidenced by Star Trek: Picard

    Other complaints include petty bullshit about set design, swearing, etc.

    It’s like these people were expecting TNG Season 8 or something. Our culture has changed and so has how television shows are produced. It’s silly to expect a show like TNG to be made in 2020

    BTW, you didn’t answer my question on anime ; )

  256. 255.

    Kay

    @sdhays:

    She is really popular with women here and they’re older and Right leaning. They’re almost protective of her. We had early Biden yard signs before he picked her and they’d tell me they would come back when I had Biden/Harris.

  257. 256.

    frosty

    @Leto: OK, having worked in local government for 14 years (Public Works) and as a consultant for locals and state agencies for another 20, I guess I can give it another try.  Be aware, that thanks to B-J recommendations I already have 29 shows on my potential binge list.

    And if the news would stop* and the commenters wouldn’t be so interesting, I might have time to watch one or two of them!!

    *Do you realize it’s only been 10 days since the FTFNYT published the tax return story? And it’s gone down the oubliette.

  259. 258.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): I haven’t seen any of the new ones as I’m not paying for CBS All Access. If I can eventually buy the Pike series they’re supposed to be starting, I might consider doing that via iTunes.

  260. 259.

    NotMax

    @frosty

    Sad to say doesn’t seem to be streaming anyplace right now, the Aussie series Utopia (sometimes marketed as Dreamland in other markets) is delightfully acerbic.

  262. 261.

    Leto

    @frosty:  You worked both local and as a consultant for the state? Haha, two main storylines! Also the time frame it came out is key: 2008 and the subsequent rise of the Tea Party. Overall a super positive tone to the entire series.

    I remember the taxes. Kamala got a hit in early on that. Just a further Trumpov effect to the news cycle. Here’s your next 15 min presidential ending scandal. Next!

  263. 262.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): I missed the question on anime completely. My apologies.

    Other than watching one of the Ghost in the Shell movies and the X-Men anime from back about a decade or so ago – I tried to watch the Iron Man and Blade ones, but they did nothing for me – I don’t watch anime. When I was a kid I would watch the English dubbed Battle of the Planets/G-Force and Space Battleship Yamato because they were on in the afternoon on the local UHF station. In general anime really isn’t my thing either.

  264. 263.

    Steeplejack

    @NotMax:

    Disagree. She has some good insights into the workings of the Senate. Steele is pretty much just genteel never-Trumper.

  265. 264.

    piratedan

    if we’re looking for moderators, I would suggest the ones from the Kelly/McSally debate last night.  Fair, no bullshit.  May not always like the questions, but at least they’ll be honest ones.

  266. 265.

    West of the Rockies

    I don’t quite get the Dense thing.  Trump is dense, Quayle was a stooge, but Pence… Other words come to mind:  dull, sanctimonious, hypocritical.  He’s no Carl Sagan, but he doesn’t seem dull-witted so much as plain dull.

  268. 267.

    mrmoshpotato

    @TS (the original): they started talking about how you can never get rid of fossil fuels & Hillary upset all the coal miners.

    All the eye rolls.  Such bullshit.  Also, sorry dudes, coal is a dying industry, has been for a long time.  But so many of them brushed off Obama’s retraining programs.  ?

  272. 271.

    Brachiator

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):

    I think this hits the nail on the head. Pence stupidly tried to ape Trump’s bully boy act by interrupting the moderators/Harris. This time the dissonance between Pence’s sanctimonious “Father Knows Best” affect and the bullying repelled people. He was also evasive and never answered the actual questions; only the questions he wanted to answer

    Harris did a bit of answering questions the way she wanted to answer them, but Pence was much, much, worse. But this is to be expected.

    These “debates” are not really debates, and the candidates know that they are there to talk to their base, and to maybe pull a few viewers over to their side.

    Harris also took the opportunity of one question to introduce herself to any viewers who didn’t know her, or only knew about her through the Fox News Distortion Filter.

    Whatever the question, Harris was there to paint Trump/Pence as incompetent. Pence was there to paint Biden/Harris as dangerous and radical.

    Advantage Harris.

  273. 272.

    Bill Arnold

    @oldgold:

    Women: 69 Harris / 30 Pence
    Men: 48 Harris/ 46 Pence

    Yeah, Pence came across as cluelessly, rudely sexist. The T-P ticket lost some more female voters tonight. (Also as a teller of falsehoods, many of which he clearly believes. But many/most viewers aren’t familiar with the level of untrueness of most Republican talking points.)

  275. 274.

    SFAW

    @dmsilev:

    ‘Ein volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer’ pretty much covers it.

    I was going to go with Talking Heads lyrics (“Same as it ever was, same as it ever was, same as it ever was, same as it ever was”) but yours is better.

  276. 275.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    @Adam L Silverman:

    No biggie. I’ve heard of Space Battleship Yamato and Ghost in the Shell. I’d personally recommend you you check out pretty much anything by Rumiko Takahashi if you like madcap, slapstick comedy. Also, look up Kenny Lauderdale; guy does interesting documentaries and reviews on old retro 70s and 80s animes

  278. 277.

    Mai Naem mobile

    @Kay: If you did one of those Jimmy Kimmel man on the street interviews I would be surprised if you would find two in ten who would know 2 current justices . RBG was probably the most famous justice in a while because most people have probably forgotten Clarence Thomas. John Roberts is so white bread, he could play the older experienced supervisor in an HR ad anywhere.

  280. 279.

    frosty

    @Leto: Consultant for a dozen local and a few state agencies, in MD and VA. And DE, now that I think about it. I never managed to break into PA. It’s a lot harder when there are 4,000 municipal governments instead of two dozen counties.

  285. 284.

    joel hanes

    @savingprivateeaity:

    Guttmacher, 2017

    Considerable scientific evidence accumulated over the past 20 years has found that AOUM programs are not effective at preventing pregnancy or STIs, nor do they have a positive impact on age at first sexual intercourse, number of sexual partners or other behaviors.

    https://www.guttmacher.org/news-release/2017/abstinence-only-until-marriage-programs-are-ineffective-and-harmful-young-people

    NIH, 2011

    the national data show that the incidence of teenage pregnancies and births remain positively correlated with the degree of abstinence education across states: The more strongly abstinence is emphasized in state laws and policies, the higher the average teenage pregnancy and birth rate. States that taught comprehensive sex and/or HIV education and covered abstinence along with contraception and condom use (level 1 sex education; also referred to as “abstinence-plus” [26], tended to have the lowest teen pregnancy rates, while states with abstinence-only sex education laws that stress abstinence until marriage (level 3) were significantly less successful in preventing teen pregnancies.

    (paper does not seem to address sexually-transmitted infections, as the first one does)

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3194801/

  286. 285.

    A woman from anywhere (formerly Mohagan)

    @Punchy: Pence has Pink Eye and a fly sat on his head for 2+ minutes and then (finally) flew off.

  288. 287.

    Brachiator

    @joel hanes:

    Considerable scientific evidence accumulated over the past 20 years has found that AOUM programs are not effective at preventing pregnancy or STIs

    Sadly, religious conservatives are immune to reason and facts here. They insist that their supposed religious based judgments must be correct.

    ETA. Good links. Thanks.

  293. 292.

    TS (the original)

    @Bill Arnold:

    Pence came across as cluelessly, rudely sexist.

    I doubt he and trump realise just how many votes this is going to cost them. Whatever reason Biden had for saying he was going to chose a woman VP, and that the one he selected was Kamala,  it  has massively helped his campaign – whether by design or chance.

  294. 293.

    evodevo

    @jl: Well, actually he was right in a way…it put paid to their endless propaganda memes,  showed his vulnerability in no uncertain terms and put paid to the lie that he is protected by all that “anointing” the talibangelicals did over the last 3 years…

  295. 294.

    evodevo

    @Steeplejack: Yeah, like Kasich…if the Party ever recovers its sanity (don’t think that’s gonna happen in his lifetime) he wants to be a “moderate” fallback candidate…

  296. 295.

    Uncle Cosmo

    @Ruckus: Apparently when he was in the House he was considered the stupidest member. Even over Louie Gohmert.

    Stupidest Member Of The House Of Representatives makes a nice acronym. Mother and ex-SMOTHOR, what a combination!

  298. 297.

    Ruckus

    @Uncle Cosmo:

    Gohmert wasn’t/isn’t the stupidest member – he seems to understand that he has limitations. He may not understand them but he seems to know they exist. I’d bet his state sends him to DC to keep him out from underfoot.

  299. 298.

    Ruckus

    @TS (the original):

    There is so much that trump and dense don’t understand, the list of what they seem to is by far shorter. It still amazes me that they have made anything of their lives. I’ve known people with nothing that seem to be brighter than what either of them put together add up to. I’m putting it up to their parents put them in positions that allowed people to be fooled by them, donnie with way too much money for one person to waste and dense with the ability to just fool people with his, OK I was going to say charm but I just can’t type that with out the world coming to a halt.

  300. 299.

    Ruckus

    @Kent:

    If you can’t laugh at the absurdity of it all….

    I mean, at some point the ridiculousness of all of this should be causing us all to be rolling on the floor holding our sides. If it wasn’t for all the actual damage from all the actual stupidity and ignorance, this entire charade would be hilarious. That a country would elect these buffoons and 30+% of us would think it’s the best available…..

  301. 300.

    EmbraceYourInnerCrone

    @Kay: It’s kinda exhausting and anyone who thinks that it is just a generational thing is kidding themselves.  I have actually stopped trying to contribute in meetings anymore, unless asked about something directly because I am tired of fighting it.   Although watching something not work because they didn’t listen the first time, and then being expected to figure out a band-aid to get it to work ASAP is always fun /s

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