I’ve been watching the Never Trumpers to see how they sketch out their next move. Jennifer Rubin has a piece in the Post titled The Republican Party has split in two. Let’s keep it that way.
When a little tiny chunk of ice falls off a glacier, is it split in two? When I cut a branch from the big tree in my front yard, did I halve it? Where Rubin sees a split, all I see are a (very) few of the usual suspects — Romney, Murkowski, Sasse, Portman, Liz Cheney — making some ineffective noise about Trump, and the rest of them doing what they’ve always done, which is either to vocally support Trump or quietly support Trump, which amounts to the same thing.
The fact that Rubin’s column is illustrated with a picture of Gov. Larry Hogan, the Maryland Republican who broke with Trump, shows how small the split really is. Sixty-six percent of his voting constituents voted for Biden. Both senators and 7 of 8 representatives from that state are Democrats. Hogan is going to stay elected in Maryland by predictably repudiating Trump — good for him, and so what?
It’s tough out there for the Never Trump Republicans. They keep searching for the big block of Republicans who share their hate for Trump and want to re-take the Party, but the bitter fact is that, as the X-rays clearly show, this thing was broken long ago. There is no such block and the dream of rehabilitation is a pipe dream.
germy
They all love them some Reagan.
Baud
You’re not counting imaginary Republicans.
schrodingers_cat
At least she is not out there calling Biden’s cabinet picks, warmongers.
feebog
I’m wondering how long Trump’s base will stay together once he is out of office. I think the Rubin’s, the Ric Wilson’s and the other never Trumper’s are trying to make the same calculation. What happens for example if he is prosecuted and found guilty of tax fraud in New York? Or even at the federal level of obstruction of justice as found in the Mueller Report (assuming there is no pardon)? Just too many unknown unknowns out there right now.
Johnnybuck
it’s not nothing, but almost nothing.
Searcher
So in my mental model of political parties you have two basic types of party-members.
Never-Trumpers — and the Very Online Left, for that matter — are the saddest people because they have a conflicting vision of the party identity, and no leverage around which to build a coalition. Without that leverage, they are left trying to appeal to people to change their party identity from “Trumpublican” to “Never-Trumper”, which is a heavy lift until Trump is out of the picture.
If Never-Trumpers had some leverage to start reaching out to the One Big Issue groups you could actually have a schism, but I don’t know how you actually gain that leverage, and judging by the failure of third parties to actually become competitive I feel comfortable assuming no one else does either.
lowtechcyclist
I’d be stunned to find out that the never-Trumpers amounted to even 4-5% of the electorate. I think it might be around 2% at best – enough to swing a close election, maybe, but not enough to change the direction of the GOP.
We’ve been watching this movie for the past forty years: the GOP cuts off its left wing, gets more extreme, and gets no less popular. This has happened over and over again during that time.
I wish this time was different, but looking at the election results, I’m having a hard time coming up with any reason to believe it.
guachi
JCJ
A report on the news yesterday about Dump tweeting at Hogan showed a picture of the tweet which had Dump’s nonsense about Hogan being a Republican In Name Only along with a picture of Hogan with a woman who appeared to be of Asian heritage in front of a Korean Airlines plane. I would know neither Hogan nor the woman if I tripped over them. Nicely done to be a racist POS.
LAO
I had a very odd thought the other day (forgive me if it’s been exhaustively discussed here since I’ve been MIA) but I think that republicans remain paralyzed by fear of Trump supporters and the republican base because once Trump is escorted out of the white house, all of his vitriol will be directed at them. He will tweet endlessly at republicans — whereas, I don’t think elected democrats care. I mean can republicans win national elections if the trump idiots stay home? Probably not.
Anonymous At Work
Also, Hogan faces VETO-proof majorities in both chambers of Maryland’s Legislature. If they wanted to pass a law saying that the Mayor had to do a turkey-dance for 24 hours on Thanksgiving, he’d have no way to stop it.
gwangung
@JCJ: That’s Hogan’s wife. Probably visiting some of her relatives.
And, yeah, racist.
Spanky
Hogan is term limited out of another term as guv, is a cancer survivor, and probably is thinking he has no further job in politics.
Kay
County clerks in Michigan apparently not adopting the uber-sophisticated approach that this is all posturing.
Dumb rubes. Don’t they know Republicans are telling Maggie Haberman and Jake Tapper that they don’t mean it?
Good for them. It’s worth defending.
different-church-lady
I realized something today: the real reason nobody in the GOP will recognize Biden is that they know if they do the Frankenstein monster they created will come and kill them. They don’t necessarily want to stand by Trump (although a lot of them do), and they don’t see any tactical advantage to standing by him; they just don’t want the monster to start towards them. They know they’ve lost control and they’re just hoping it doesn’t see them and maybe that they can loot some cottages while it’s not looking.
Four Seasons Total Landscaping mistermix
@lowtechcyclist:
Agreed. They’re looking at this from the top down (Trump is out, fever will break and and a good number of R’s will repudiate him). But, from the bottom up, there are a bunch of Republicans who will just be looking for another Trump if he leaves the scene. There’s no constituency for decency in the Republican Party.
Also, the Lincoln Project spent a lot of money and at best appear to have convinced Republicans who don’t like Trump to ticket split. Maine is a good example.
LAO
@different-church-lady: you said that much better than I did. I couldn’t agree more.
Kent
5% is exactly right. According to the most recent data I can find:
Some simple math. 14 divided by 253 = 0.54 or 5.4% of national Republican politicians are willing to accept reality and stand up to Trump. 95% are craven Trumpers.
schrodingers_cat
@guachi: Yes and the purity left whose message cost us down ballot doesn’t.
patrick II
I have been wondering what ,Trump tells people to convince them that changing their mind about their obligations to certify the vote that gets them to change their mind. Both of the Wayne county people have changed back, and now I am worried about the state board. What convinces them?
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@Kay:
So there are no reporters with the stones to pose this to Chatfield, but I think it valid:
Given the eliminationist rhetoric of Michigan militias over the years and the tendency of the GOP to minimize concerns, it would be fun to see the reaction.
Four Seasons Total Landscaping mistermix
@Kay:
One thing nobody seems to talk about is the absolute bind that Trump’s put Republican election functionaries (from County Clerk all the way to Secretary of State) in. SoS is a huge stepping stone position — no politician dreams about that as their ultimate job. The political point of being SoS is to do a notably good job that you can reference in your campaign for higher office, and job #1 for any SoS is the election. Since we’re not (yet) a fascist dictatorship, Republican SoSs in purple states (GA and AZ are great examples) know that their only safe move is to argue that the election was well-administered, or their careers are over. I don’t feel sorry for these SoSs, but it isn’t surprising that they weren’t willing to commit political suicide for Trump.
cain
@Kent:
I think the GOP is in deep shit and as we continue to consolidate our power, we need to do all we can to keep them away from the levers of govt. It is imperative that this happens.
gbbalto
@JCJ: That is his wife – Korean American. She helped organize a direct shipment of Korean test kits to Baltimore where Hogan had the National Guard and State Police ready to thwart any attempt to seize them. (Unfortunately, they have not been using them)
Sab
I know some local non-office holder Republicans and they have mostly left the party. The register as independents If they do hold office at the local level they are often somewhat okay, until they decide they want to run for higher office. Then they are owned by the big donors.
Barbara
@LAO: He isn’t even waiting to be escorted out of the White House to do what you are describing. Or at least some of his supporters aren’t.
Never Trumpers don’t seem to understand, though likely will at some point, that losing will not necessarily bring the Republican Party back to sanity. First, they didn’t really lose much down ballot at all, so many will cling to visible signs of support as validating their approach. Second, the pattern in states like California and Virginia suggests that the party will get crazier before it tries to find its way back towards the middle. And, of course, this is all happening in a landscape where media and news have truly changed, so who knows whether there will be continued cycling towards conspiracy theorists. If I had to guess, over time, I think that many of the most deranged will simply lose interest in their political identity. That’s like the best outcome Rubin can hope for.
Anonymous At Work
Cooking Question: Brine then spatchcock or Spatchcock then brine???
scav
@Kent: I’d be careful about confusing the distribution of opinion of the representatives with the distribution of the electorate. Non-representative sample, in any number of ways.
Roger Moore
@lowtechcyclist:
I think you’re wrong about them getting no less popular. In 1984, Reagan won with close to 60% of the popular vote; in 1988, GHWB got a solid majority. The Republican party has won a majority in the presidential election only once since then, in 2004, and that was a small enough majority that people laughed about GWB claiming it gave him a mandate. The Republicans have been losing popularity, but they’ve been masking that loss by fighting harder to suppress the vote and taking advantage of the quirks of the electoral college.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@Four Seasons Total Landscaping mistermix:
I’ll observe this – Trump is unique in that he’s the Apex Conservative, the highest expression of the form.
There is no problem too large to be allowed to fix itself. Appearances of success are as good as success itself – with success itself being defined as doing nothing to fix a problem.
lowtechcyclist
@different-church-lady:
Very well said. Yeah, they’re trapped, and the Dems should make it as hot for them as possible. The public has to be hit over the head with the message that the problem isn’t just Trump, it’s the whole damned party.
Call them quislings, collaborationists, or even traitors to democracy, it’s up to the Dems to attach whatever cost they can to their refusal to admit this election is over. The media won’t do it for them.
schrodingers_cat
@Anonymous At Work: It doesn’t matter, do what is easier.
scav
@Anonymous At Work: Republicans tend to be well-larded, so I’d spatchcock first.
lowtechcyclist
@Roger Moore: OK, change that to 1992.
Humdog
I believe Rubin agrees that national Rs are a lost cause, maybe, to her, excepting Romney and Murkowski. But she did point out local level Rs like Maricopa councilmen and Georgia SOS are trying to stand up for democracy.
piratedan
@Searcher: part of the problem the the loudspeaker effect… a significant amount of the punditry that we see referenced in our usual media rounds are folks that represent a significant swath of both never-trumper and rose-twitter lands, as such their voices are heard, even if their constituency is small.
My main feeling is that most of us just want government to work, be fair more often than not, and keep the lights on.
The one-issue voters seem to be captured by the moment and say that their “one-issue” is solved, what then? Do they find a new issue of personal overwhelming urgency ? Have they latched onto that “one-issue” because they know that the issue itself will never be “resolved” to their satisfaction because of the cognitive dissonance involved with how that one position boomerangs into a whole lotta other stuff that they’ve felt safe shit-canning while carrying that banner? I have no idea, when it came to things like Women’s right to vote, marriage equality etc… how did those people end up swimming back into the existing societal currents? Seems to me that when those issues were resolved, there was mainstream acceptance, someone had won the argument in the social discourse… Feel like we’re getting there with Abortion… but the passion dies hard obviously.
JaySinWA
A fair slice of the current R voters are always Trumpers. They are likely to fall away if T isn’t there, heading for third parties if they vote at all. The never Trumpers were only 2-3 percent by their own calculations, looking to make a difference at the margins. Between them are the Team R republicans, a mix of various single issue types, race id, anti-communists, anti-abortion, hyper-capitalists as well as just low info voters who are part of the club.
I am not sure how you can slice and dice it, but R’s are not quite the monolith that they get painted as. There may be significant fracture points that can split the party with enough votes to keep it a rump party in several areas. I don’t see that as something Ds can do, it has to be from Rs and former Rs who understand the fracture points and can apply the pressure
Or what @Searcher: said.
MattF
Republican politicians aren’t going to repudiate Trump. They fear Trump, they fear the Republican base, they fear their own party organizations, both national and local. If you think the national Republican party is maxed out for Trump, you haven’t looked at the local party organizations– they’re worse.
Kay
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
I guess I just don’t understand why elected Democrats are somehow “above” defending their voters.
There’s something like 9000 Michiganders tuned in right now passionately defending their right not to be disenfranchised by Donald Trump and the Republican Party. Would be nice if the Democrats they just elected could back them up. Unclear why individual voters have been left to their own devices to insist their votes shouldn’t be thrown out.
I am proud of the county clerks though. Thank goodness it isn’t beneath them to put their objections on the record.
greenergood
OT: Any sign of Adam the Silverman?? He said he would post not long after Election Day, but I’ve seen no sign. Maybe I ‘ve missed a post, but I hope he’s okay – miss the Silverman wisdom and wit
Kay
Anyone who wants to listen to individual Democratic voters in Michigan plead with the Republican Party not to throw their votes out can do so here.
They’re doing a good job but I remain baffled at how this is now completely up to them. Gosh, I hope they win.
Kent
@scav: Oh, I know. I just found it striking that the 5% non-craven estimate for the voting populace exactly matches the 5% non-craven number for Congress.
MattF
@Kay: I’m certain that Black voters are well aware that the Trump claims to have won the election amount to a return to Jim Crow. I’m sure they’re very pissed off, and I think Democrats would be missing a huge opportunity if they don’t capitalize on it.
pamelabrown53
@Four Seasons Total Landscaping mistermix:
While I agree that the J.Rubin column you referenced was beyond lame, I also believe we weren’t her target audience. She’s attempting to shame and cajole.
Since, the column you referenced, she’s written 2 more, the most recent: “Perdue and Loeffler already betrayed voter’s truth”.
Bottom line, I think I wouldn’t wholesale her into the “never Trumpers who can not be trusted” on the basis of that one column. From my reading of her columns,in totality, she’s gone beyond the others in that category.
JaySinWA
@Anonymous At Work: Order isn’t important for results, but it may be easier to find a suitable container for a spatchcock bird if you are wet brining either flattened or rolled back up.
japa21
@Four Seasons Total Landscaping mistermix:
Unless you are Jesse White in Illinois.
MattF
@pamelabrown53: Now and then, Rubin casts a longing gaze at her former conservative pals. But in-real-life, she knows better.
What Have the Romans Ever Done for Us?
@Anonymous At Work: I usually spatchcock then brine. Mostly because then I can use the backbone to make some turkey stock in advance of the big day. But, lots of people brine whole turkeys so brining then spatchcocking is fine too. If you brine whole then I’d sprinkle some of the brining mix inside the cavity in addition to coating the outside.
I use a dry brine – it’s a mix of kosher salt and baking powder – the baking powder supposedly helps the skin crisp up. I’m doing the brine tomorrow and putting an herb and butter rub on it the day of. I was planning on putting mine on the charcoal grill if the weather permits. I’m OK with chilly but if it’s raining I usually chuck it in the oven as I have no covered place to put my grill.
SiubhanDuinne
Biden’s nominating Janet Yellen for Treasury Secretary!
Kay
@MattF:
Not “capitalize on it”. This is no longer about electing Democrats. It’s about them– those voters.
Do it. Go there and defend their voters. The Dem voters don’t seem to have gotten the memo that Republicans don’t mean it.
Hey I’m pulling for them. I just think they could use an advocate and I’m baffled why it’s considered out of bounds to defend them.
hitless
@pamelabrown53: Yeah – FWIW Rubin has been vocal about systemic racism being an actual problem…Max Boot has also. I view that issue as being a litmus test indicating an actual change. For all I know, they may be all up for bombing everything sight still, so I’m not nominating them for sainthood or anything. But I think their expressed views are qualitatively different than many of the other anti-Trump republicans.
MattF
@Kay: Yes. If someone is chewing your arm off, you need to make them stop.
Just One More Canuck
OT but WereBear posted on her FB page that Reverend Jim passed away. My condolences to her
Ian G.
OT question, does anyone understand the rationale behind various MAGAts putting “president-election [their name]” in their Twitter or Instagram handles? I’m sure it’s some sort of childish taunt aimed at Democrats, but I’m not sure I follow the logic. Are they saying they each are as likely to be president on January 20th as Biden is?
PsiFighter37
I think the test of how engaged these Never Trumpers want to be will be measured by how much their writing resembles David Brooks, whose editorials seem to go to great lengths to talk about conservatism as it exists in a fantasy alternate reality / his own head. If they go the same route, they will become just as irrelevant.
Cheryl from Maryland
@gbbalto: Because the tests don’t work. Hogan knew this last summer; WaPo did an article exposing his knowledge and lack of candor a few weeks ago. The only MD office for him is to run against Chris Van Hollen for Senator in 2022. Hogan will not win.
Johnnybuck
@MattF: Never-Trumpers lost the narrative with the Iraq war. i’m sure it still stings, but Palin was a sign that their time was up.
Kay
@MattF:
The lawyer for John James, the GOP senate candidate who also lost and also refuses to accept the results, suggests they appoint Joe Leiberman to decide whether James/Trump won the election.
I’ll let you know what the Michigan Dem voters say in response to Republican lawyers if and when any more of them get a chance to speak.
Gosh I hope our voters know this is just double back flip ultra-sophisticated kabuki, per DC press corps. They sure don’t sound like they know that. They’re probably afraid Republicans will throw their votes out. Understandable given how Republicans are trying to throw their votes out.
hells littlest angel
Uh, yes. It’s split into two unequal-sized pieces.
JPL
@Just One More Canuck: He was a beauty.
Brachiator
They have nowhere to go. The GOP leadership and base have repudiated them. They even mock the idea of “principled conservatives” or “thinking conservatives.” The GOP ain’t got no principles. There is only the demand of blind loyalty and the dedication to the raw application of brute power.
I wish that these people could really split the party, but they will probably become an irrelevant afterthought.
Kent
I love listening to her talk. Her Brooklyn accent is so charming. She used to be interviewed all the time on NPR’s Marketplace.
Beyond that I don’t really have a big opinion on this pick. Because I have no idea what her policy objectives would be. I like that it is shade against Trump who didn’t renew her term on the Fed.
Geoduck
@Ian G.: Basically, yes. “Biden can say he’s President-Elect all he wants, but he isn’t because reasons.”
schrodingers_cat
@Kent:
In addition to being the Chair of Fed she is a respected academic in the field of macroeconomics.
Dorothy A. Winsor
I’m following the MI board of electors meeting on twitter, and it’s still going on. There are many crazy people out there.
Kay
More Top Secret good faith actions by Republicans! I am so thankful we have all these people rushing to tell us that we need to ignore what Republicans are doing and saying in this meeting and instead listen to what Republicans told 7 reporters on background.
Even when Republicans are very, very bad they’re miraculously rehabilitated – but only in secret.
90% of this fucking thing is Republican operatives smearing Democratic voters but never fear! Republicans only requested public comment for good and pure (but Top Secret) reasons.
JMG
@Kay: It’s public comments at a public hearing. Those ALWAYS have more citizens than pols. Besides, the leading Dems in Michigan, the AG and Governor, are the ones who’ll have to take action against the board if it doesn’t certify. They really can’t comment unless that happens.
mali muso
This seems an appropriate place to drop this piece.
N M
@greenergood: +1, where art though, Adam?
I think I saw him comment on a few threads, but no front page posts that I’ve noted.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@SiubhanDuinne: I was kinda rooting for Lael Brainard cause I was looking forward to Rose Twitter declaring they had carefully scrutinized Brainard’s record and only a neo-liberal would appoint that man! But people who know more than I do seem very chuffed about Yellen. So I say Yay!
Kay
@JMG:
Absolutely agree on sitting Michigan executive branch members.
I’m just wondering where the national Democrats these people just elected are. This is now the deal? We not only have to vote we also have to defend our votes for three weeks post-election?
Jesus Christ. We better hope none of our voters have a job or a life. I’m not sure elected Democrats can reasonably demand this level of commitment. Correct me if I’m wrong but don’t we elect “representatives?” Each person must now defend their individual vote?
Betty Cracker
I hope Democrats are behind this movement:
It’s high time we weaponized the stupidity of the Trump horde against Republicans.
SiubhanDuinne
@Anonymous At Work:
Brine then spatchcock. Stick with alphabetical order and you’ll never go wrong.
PsiFighter37
@Kent: She’s a very good and well-qualified pick. There are a wealth of good backups as well. Would like to see Roger Ferguson get a role somewhere, but as he’s already been on the Fed, I am unsure he would be interested in going back. Maybe SEC chair?
pamelabrown53
@hitless:
I agree that vocal condemnation of systemic racism is indeed an important litmus test: thanks for reminding us all!
As for the sainthood nominations, I have none.
PsiFighter37
@Betty Cracker: I am pretty sure you cannot write in anyone’s name on the ballot – the whole point of the runoff is to have a head-to-head matchup such that someone gets a majority.
Baud
@Betty Cracker:
Can you write-in in a run-off election? Seems to defeat the purpose of ensuring a winning candidate gets 50%+1 of the vote
cmorenc
The split in the GOP doesn’t need to to be large to critically erode its chances of winning future Presidential elections, especially with a hard-right candidate like Trump.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Baud: if you write on the ballot with a Sharpie, your vote counts twice!
trnc
@Kay:
Obviously, a good faith audit could still be done after certifying the results, given that there’s no way the ballots in question would change the outcome. Also obvious; these republicans have no desire to act in good faith since they’re trying to set up a catch-22 certification delay scheme.
Kent
I like the pick. I just don’t have a good sense as to where Janet Yellen falls on the Dem ideological spectrum from say Elizabeth Warren to Timothy Geithner.
Brachiator
@feebog:
Trump’s base if forever. He didn’t assemble them. They found one another, and have always been united in their anger and resentment.
If Trump were not an addled moron with a short fuse and an even shorter attention span, he might actually be able to form a third party and snuff the regular GOP. As it is, Trump will continue to check any opposition by other GOP leaders by talking about running again in 2024. This makes him always relevant as the leader of the Republican Party, and gives his base something to hope for.
Trump will settle or string out a final resolution for as long as possible, and cry to his base about being persecuted.
I got a question for lawyers.
Wasn’t an impeachment charge “obstruction of Congress?” Could Trump claim that this is essentially the same as “obstruction of justice,” and then say that double jeopardy prevents his being brought up on federal charges?
Searcher
@piratedan: I think a lot of times with One Big Issue, if that issue is Big enough, it can last you a lifetime. On the off chance your One Big Issue is resolved, or at least, no longer salient — for instance, I would say that “nuclear war” is no longer really as salient as it was back when I was a yute in the 80’s, even if we still have nuclear arsenal, I think the section of the coalition is going to fragment.
Kent
@Baud: There won’t be a write-in spot. They will likely look like these sample runoff ballots from 2018
https://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/mdjonline.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/b/14/b1446332-797f-11e8-acea-c390f447aa81/5b32a288b519e.pdf.pdf
Kay
@trnc:
Of course that’s what they’re doing. The other word for that is “trying to overturn an election”.
I watch this day after day and I’m left to sort of idly wonder at what point Democrats and media would admit this is a serious effort to overturn an election.
They’re going to have to move the goalposts again. Forget “transition” and forget “certification”. Perhaps we’ll be able to salvage inaugeration?
January 20th. NO MORE delays after that!
patroclus
@Kent: Yellin’s policy objectives are growth, stabilization, safety and soundness, an efficient allocation of resources and an equitable distribution of wealth and income. Her focus as Fed chair was on capital, assets, management, earnings and liquidity. I suspect she will have similar objectives as Treasury Secretary but that position usually focuses more on growth than on stabilization.
schrodingers_cat
@Kent: Elizabeth Warren is not an economist, her specialization is consumer finance and bankruptcy law. Yellen is a leading macroeconomist whose papers are read by grad students taking macro classes. If you had to pin her ideologically, I would say that she is a Keynesian.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I guess she heard about the three cases of attempted double-voting by trumpers in PA
PsiFighter37
@Kent: I suspect she is to the left (somewhat, not a whole lot) to Geithner and to the right of Warren. More of a technocratic pick, but someone who I think recognizes that having healthy skepticism of the banking system is a good thing. I don’t hate Geithner as much as many folks on the left do, but his biggest shortfall was that he was very tone-deaf, and that likely had to do with the fact that, as president of the NY Fed, he was talking to the big banks all the time.
Betty Cracker
@Baud: Since when do rules and logic matter? They can use that pen to write in Trump, damn it, even if they have to draw their own oval to fill in.
Dan B
@Anonymous At Work: If you spatchcock the breast may absorb more salt. Having said this I brined two turkeys. One was inedible the other not. Neither was spatchcocked.
Sab
@Kent: Well she is actually an economist, unlike Warren and Geitner.
George
Someone upthread seemed to think that the secretary of state of Arizona is a Republican. That is incorrect–she is a Democrat.
Brachiator
@SiubhanDuinne:
Interesting move! I was curious to see who his picks for Treasury and Commerce might be. I think that these two appointments will be critical to a post-pandemic recovery.
I like this pick very much. Mad respect for Yellen.
Chetan Murthy
89 comments in, so maybe a little OT nice time:
Searcher
@Kent: I want to make a joke about “Republicans wanting to make a protest vote in the 2021 run-off are welcome to smear their own feces across the ballot.” but the poll workers don’t really deserve that.
Four Seasons Total Landscaping mistermix
@PsiFighter37:
If you have a pen and a paper ballot, you can write whatever dream or wish your heart makes on it, and it will become a “spoiled ballot”.
Steve in the ATL
@Four Seasons Total Landscaping mistermix:
Holy @#$%ing shit GA and AZ ARE purple states now!
Lynn Dee
Rubin may be thinking of more than just elected office-holders when she says the party’s been split in half.
Kent
Of course. But the Treasury Department has more duties than simply economics or managing the economy. They have tremendous enforcement powers as well, for example. So the priorities of the Cabinet Secretary aren’t simply going to be growth vs austerity. They will also be how much to you want to regulate the banking industry.
Steve in the ATL
@different-church-lady: you left off the “+n” at the bottom of your post!
Four Seasons Total Landscaping mistermix
@George:
That was me – whoops!
Nobody in particular
@Brachiator:
That’s my concern. 70 million-plus – and at least this one time – voters who are objectively pro-fascist, or your term of art here. This is America and some people think “authoritarian” means like King Arthur. Fascism announces itself to the world, proudly, eventually. Parties? Meh.
Without a base, you have a very small party that people fashionably don’t bother joining at all.
Just curious, Adam has been absent for a week. I trust he is well.
Dan B
@lowtechcyclist: I’d shy away from traitors to democracy. A large number of middle class white people have mo interest in democracy. They feel the US is going downhill because the wrong people are allowed to vote and get benefits they didn’t earn. They are interested in safety and stability. Making the US less secure might get their attention.
schrodingers_cat
@Kent: There is a lot more to banking than consumer finance. And Yellen understands all the inputs that go into the economy.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Nobody in particular:
I think a couple of people have been in touch, and he’s fine and busy.
Betty Cracker
@Brachiator: As someone pointed out on Twitter, a victory for short ladies! :)
germy
prostratedragon
@japa21: Check!
mrmoshpotato
Fuck the math. I hope the Rethuglican party practices some self-cannibalism.
Betty Cracker
@germy: That’s promising. I don’t really know much about Yellen except that she seems competent and not evil.
Ksmiami
@lowtechcyclist: Rt wing fascist works for me…
patroclus
@schrodingers_cat: “Keynesianism” is not really an ideological position – it’s more a matter of recognizing that affecting effective demand is an important component of good public finance. Macroeconomists have moved well beyond the General Theory in recognizing supply components, as well as capital, assets, management, earnings and liquidity, in adopting good public economic policies. Moreover, Keynes was primarily interested in growth, given the Great Depression – since then, stabilization, safety and soundness, an efficient allocation of resources and an equitable distribution of wealth and income have become equal partners in the eclectic post-Keynesian consensus that has emerged since his time.
Pinpointing ideology in connection with macroeconomic policies is not really all that helpful or accurate.
Nobody in particular
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Thanks.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@germy:
: eye roll : I wish Reich would see a shrink about his guilt for having worked for Bubba
germy
@Betty Cracker:
Yes. If she was a problematic choice, Robert would let us know.
I’m happy with Biden’s choices.
Brachiator
@Betty Cracker:
I want to see a photo of John Kerry standing next to Janet Yellen.
Geminid
@pamelabrown53: Hi! Hope you are making out ok in El Paso. Sounds like the epidemic has been very rough there. Last week I was glad to see that your Congresswoman, Veronica Escobar, was one of four members of the Congressional Democratic Caucus selected to nominate Speaker Pelosi for another term. While few new Representatives get much notice in the national news, I’ve read that within the caucus Escobar is considered to be a rising star.
schrodingers_cat
@patroclus: I agree. That’s why I said if you had to.
Keynes is the father of macroeconomics. I was using Keynesian as a shorthand for those open to using deficit spending and monetary policy to decrease unemployment and keep inflation in check.
Neoliberals like Milton Friedman opposed deficit spending but were okay with using monetary policies to keep inflation in check.
misterpuff
@germy: Zombie Gipper Trumped by Drumpf.
Just wait for Zombie Donny powered by Q!
trnc
@Kay: Obviously, they would be ecstatic if they could overturn the election, but the continued sham court filings and certification crapfest feel a lot more like attempts to delay rather than an honest belief that the election will be overturned. The delay gives the criminals in the WH more time to cover their tracks.
That doesn’t mean everyone has gotten the memo. I’m sure some of the state level assholes genuinely believe handing DT the election is the real goal.
hitless
@Kay: Republicans are indulged in behavior by the media and many elected Dems that neither would tolerate from Dems. It’s actually degrading the United States as a functional society.
Brachiator
@patroclus:
True enough. Although some people associate someone like Thomas with a left-leaning view of macroeconomics.
But I agree that trying to put Yellen into a narrow ideological bubble is just wrong.
I would bet, though, that Yellen might advocate stimulus and say, for example, checks to citizens to counter the impact of the pandemic, and this would cause McConnell to brand her as a leftist extremist.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I would love to see him tee off on Rudi
Betty Cracker
@Brachiator: I think Yellen would tower over Robert Reich but not John Kerry! (I don’t know how tall any of these people are, but supposedly one reason Trump got rid of Yellen is because she’s 1. a woman, and 2. vertically challenged.)
sdhays
@japa21: Is he really still SoS? I haven’t lived in Illinois in over 2 decades, and I remember him being elected the first time!
Dorothy A. Winsor
From Michigan
Kent
@trnc: They still have the same number of days between now and January 20 regardless of how much the muck up certification in the courts.
I think it’s really about the grift, which is what all things in the Trump orbit are about. But dragging this shit out Trump is cementing his place on top of the Republican party post-2020 and inserting his loyalists into all the positions of control. Also, by getting them all to lick his boots today, he is insuring that they will all have to come back and lick his boots again in 2022 and 2024.
The GOP had the chance to rip off the band -aid after the election. They chose not to and now they are stuck with Trump for the duration. Hah. Serves them right.
sdhays
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: LOL. It certainly took him quite some time to come to the same conclusion everyone else came to the second it was announced that these people had agreed to work for Donnie Dump.
Matt McIrvin
@Ian G.: They’re pretending to be upset that people are calling Biden the “president-elect” just based on media calls (though, of course, this was never a problem for them before now).
catclub
are you asking about Republicans or turkeys?
HalfAssedHomesteader
I hereby decree that all adherents, supporters, apologists and sycophants of Trump and Trumpism shall hereafter be referred to collectively as the Donner Party. Let the feast begin!
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@catclub: as god as my witness, I thought Republicans could fly
Dan B
@N M: Adam is probably lining up work or jobs. I miss his thorough analysis and ability to thousands of words and make the logic easy to follow.
Brachiator
@Betty Cracker:
The google say, Yellen is 5 ft 3 and Reich is 4 ft 11. Bigfoot John Kerry is 6 ft 4.
Curiously enough, Paul Krugman is 5 ft 7. And former Fed chairman Paul Volcker was 6 ft 7.
I almost feel bad for looking this stuff up.
Reason 154 in the list, “Why normal people hate Donald Trump.”
catclub
My wife was asking why this has not happened. My theory is that Giuliani knows the rule. Only say nice things about Trump.
Matt McIrvin
@N M: Right after the election, he said he was going to follow up his celebratory post with one about how we were entering unusually dangerous times, but events rapidly made such a post redundant as the reasons were obvious to all.
SoupCatcher
@catclub:
Yes.
Gin & Tonic
@N M: I and at least one other commenter have noted that we have received e-mail(s) from Adam, so he is clearly still among the living, but presumably too busy IRL to post.
trnc
@Kent:
I’m talking about the transition. In a normal transition, Biden’s team would already have access to a lot of information at the various agencies. In this case, a lot of the information could point to criminal and/or howlingly inept behavior, not to mention a clear contempt for the base. You understand why DT and many of those cabinet members/agency heads would not want Biden’s team to get hold of that info.
Yes, always a safe bet, regardless of any other reasons they have.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@catclub: mayhap also that lizard-brain survival instinct he has. Rudi was in Ukraine, deep in the first campaign, hell they go back to when they made this video together. Who knows what Rudi knows….
Sally
@Betty Cracker: Yes! Sharpie him in, don’t let the system beat you, trumpies!
Sally
@Four Seasons Total Landscaping mistermix: I know! Ha
Kent
@trnc: Honestly, as a former fed, I don’t think any of this obstruction is about hiding evidence of wrong doing. It’s simply about being assholes and supporting Trump’s claim that he was robbed.
They are much more overt about the stealing. For example, I’m willing to bet that a bunch of those forgivable Pandemic business loans went to all manner of Trump-affiliated businesses who didn’t qualify. And there is all the endless overt grift by all of Trump’ businesses that are charging the government for everything.
The transition documents they are withholding are more mundane things like budgets, strategic plans, org charts, projects in the pipeline, looming crises, etc. etc. Stuff each agency has been putting together for the past 6-12 months. Not secret data showing where the bodies are buried so to speak.
HalfAssedHomesteader
@lowtechcyclist: I will grant that their political power has not shrunk as much as it objectively should have but they are certainly less popular than they used to be. Their Senate majority represents 40 million fewer Americans than the minority. Similarly for the House when they hold the majority (but don’t recall the margin).
Geminid
@Barbara: A friend remarked that many of the tea/trump supporters are not very civic minded, and will as you say “lose their political identity.” But a lot will stay engaged at least a while, and in states like Virginia will continue to try to dominate the republican party. There, they were able to nominate Corey Stewart for Senate in 2018, and Bob Good in the 5th Congressional District this year. However, their intra-party opponents may be down, but they’re not out. I call them Chamber of Commerce republicans, but that’s just shorthand. The Virginia political site Bearing Drift has several writers who advocate this faction’s viewpoint. It looks like the two sides will fight it out in next year’s Governor’s race.
Georgia’s 2022 republican primaries will be another test of this intra-party dynamic, when Raffensberger, and maybe Kemp also, will face strong primary challengers. I hope to follow these races. But I’ll be rooting for injuries.
topclimber
@Betty Cracker: US News says she is also known as an expert in labor policy and was chair of Clinton’s Council of Economic Advisers.
I want to hear what EW says about her. She pushed Yellen to go after Wells Fargo more vigorously, and I believe she did. Let’s face it: Having a Treasury chief who reins in banking abuses is something we have needed this entire century. If she does nothing else (and I am not sure she will, just saying) she will be a great choice.
Ruckus
@Brachiator:
That sounds like it would take an actual legal mind to pull off, so the republican lawyers they have managed to scrounge up probably couldn’t do that.
trollhattan
When Liz Cheney is your savior you need a new church.
mrmoshpotato
@sdhays: Hehe, take a look.
Aleta
@catclub: what about concrete then into the brine?
Geminid
@topclimber: I like Yellen as Treasury Secretary because she knows what the Fed does and how it does it. The current chairman’s efforts to stave off a depression have probably been more consequential than the efforts of Congress and that tinhorn president. The dollar amounts of the Fed’s actions are massive, but there is virtually no disclosure, and so there is little understanding by people generally. Yellen knows what’s what, and can speak to the Fed Chairman as a peer.
WRRistow
@feebog: I’m wondering how long Trump’s base will stay together once he is out of officei
It will stay together a very long time, and jailing Trump wouldn’t shake it. The right-wing media and Trump himself have established that the only meaning of “truth” is “whatever serves the Cause”.
That’s why the ‘absurd’ legal challenges to Biden’s victory are terribly relevant: what is asserted is not backed by evidence, but it serves the Cause, so it is True, and the evidence will come out, or is being hidden by sinister forces.
This is not an ordinary political movement; it has the trappings of a cult. It feels it has a right, perhaps a Divine right, to rule. It preceded Trump, and will continue, with him as titular head, whether he’s in or out of office, or a ‘martyr’ in prison, or alive or dead.
To scorn its leaders as incompetent buffoons is to miss the point. They are terribly good at demanding and enforcing Orthodoxy. They came far too close to disenfranchising Michigan; they punished the Georgia Secretary of State for certifying an election that went the ‘wrong’ way.
They will not be budged ny reason, they will not be shakem by ridicule, they will not be moved by calls on written or unwritten rules for a democratic society.
Go to voxday.blogspot.com to see what I call the Cult in a very pure form. Read the comments.
topclimber
@patroclus: My limited understanding of Keynesianism is that it is ideological in one crucial sense: Rather than leaving macroeconomic realities to the vagaries of the invisible hand (in the kinda non-monopolistic economy of Adam Smith’s day) or to the machinations of corporate management (in the monopolistic one we confront today), it gives government a major, if not primary role.
That is why conservatives come up with half-assed alternatives like supply side economics–because no way the government should run the show!
Of course, the banks and other corps still pack an outsized influence in our version of Keynesianism, but constrained by the political counterweight of those not in their pay.
Nora Lenderbee
@Brachiator: 5’3″ isn’t even that short. The average American woman is 5’4″. I’m more than happy to have her in the Short Women’s Union, though.
Miss Bianca
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Memo to President Trump: Dear ‘Sir’ – if you think it’s just your lawyers who are a ‘team of fools who make you look bad’, allow us to assure you that they are far from the only ones.
Sincerely,
Real Life
artem1s
@piratedan:
https://www.aclu-il.org/en/news/13-us-women-have-abortions-87-us-counties-have-no-provider
You must live in the 13% of counties that have an abortion provider. 87% of counties in the US have no known provider. Add TRAP laws to this and you can see why I’m skeptical that we’re getting anywhere with Abortion. The right is winning on abortion and have started in on dismantling access to contraception and reproductive health education.
https://www.plannedparenthoodaction.org/issues/abortion/trap-laws
Omnes Omnibus
@Kent: I agree with you on the transition issue. It is making things slower than they should be and that will have real world consequences, but the actual transition is happening/will happen.
KrackenJack
One of the few remaining joys that Trump will have after 1/20 is ratf*cking the Republican party and I assume he will do that with gusto. If the GOP can manage to nominate anyone other than Trump himself in 2024 they start with at least 45% of the vote. Some Trumpistas may drop out, but they’ll be replaced by people who were unable to bring themselves to vote for Trump. Ivanka might be the perfect compromise candidate if they can get past the misogyny and she can stay out of prison. I don’t think that the party faithful have learned any lessons about competence or honesty.
I am pleasantly surprised that the Lincoln Project still going for the jugular. That, plus their attacks on other Republicans like McConnell makes it seem like they are more than just never-Trumpers and that they see the party as the problem.
A friend mine thinks that the disaffected Repubs will find deep-pocketed donors to build a third party like the Greens or Libertarians. I think that is highly unlikely. Billionaire donors spend money for influence today rather than launching a political party startup that may never rise above protest vote margins.
rikyrah
@japa21:
???
A woman from anywhere (formerly Mohagan)
@JCJ: IIRC Hogan is married to a Korean woman and used her contacts to get PPE for his state early on in the pandemic.
rikyrah
@SiubhanDuinne:
Yes….
rikyrah
@Steve in the ATL:
Yesssssss ??
Kathleen
@schrodingers_cat: Jennifer Rubin is the most unabashedly pro Democratic Party voice in the mainstream media right now. She has on numerous times called out Republicans for their treasonous behavior, racism, and moral/spiritual bankruptcy. She’s much more supportive than our friends on “The Left” as you pointed out.
J R in WV
@greenergood:
Perhaps, and I’m just guessing here, but perhaps given the election results, Adam has sudden new paying work to do all piled up on his desk at home?
Which might preclude his opinionating here at B-J???
Another Scott
@Spanky: Dead thread, but …
Supposedly Hogan was letting people know that he was thinking about running for President in ‘024 or ‘028 [/colbert]. I guess he thinks that rMoney 2.0 is a winning strategery (“moderate” Republican in a “blue state”, got things done, etc.). I’m not seeing it working, but I’m not the audience.
Cheers,
Scott.