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This must be what justice looks like, not vengeful, just peaceful exuberance.

You know it’s bad when the Project 2025 people have to create training videos on “How To Be Normal”.

Trump’s legal defense is going to be a dumpster fire inside a clown car on a derailing train.

Let me file that under fuck it.

The frogs are rarely mistaken.

The Supreme Court is corrupt. Democrats must win in November and force court reform.

Hey Washington Post, “Democracy Dies in Darkness” is supposed to be a warning, not a mission statement.

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Someone should tell Republicans that violence is the last refuge of the incompetent, or possibly the first.

Shut up, hissy kitty!

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The Supreme Court cannot be allowed to become the ultimate, unaccountable arbiter of everything.

I also would like a pony to improve my balloon juice experience.

Republicans got rid of McCarthy. Democrats chose not to save him.

This fight is for everything.

In short, I come down firmly on all sides of the issue.

Trump makes a mockery of the legal system and cowardly judges just sit back and let him.

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You are here: Home / Politics / Republican Venality / Wasting Time, Michigan Style

Wasting Time, Michigan Style

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Because America apparently has not yet endured enough fucking Zoom meetings during the pandemic, a couple Republicans in Michigan are causing problems and trying to keep them from certifying the vote. As punishment, the canvassing board is now holding a live comment session so every random on the planet can come live and voice their opinion:

So far, the vast majority of the people are telling them they were involved in the process as poll watchers/challengers/etc., there was no fraud, and to just certify the vote.

It is, in essence, a giant waste of time because of a couple wingnut jackasses. It’s fucking absurd, and a reminder that our democracy is designed to function with people acting in good faith, otherwise, the system gets gummed up.

God bless Julie Matuzak, the one canvasser who is apparently my soul mate and sick of this bullshit.

Reader Interactions

216Comments

  3. 3.

    Kent

    Presumably they still have to certify today by state law. So all this really does is postpone the vote a few hours until they decide to cut it off.  And probably gives some cover to the GOP members of the board.

  4. 4.

    Goku (Amerikan Baka)

    @Kent:

    As I understand it, since it is state law, does this mean that these Republican canvassers can face fines/jail time?

  5. 5.

    Frankensteinbeck

    One of the Republicans – and they only need one – has been the guy who from the very beginning has said he’ll vote to certify and the board’s only legal option is to certify, that none of the other things they’re being asked to do are part of their job.  He seems to be in charge of explaining that over and over.  A second Republican just spoke up a few minutes ago saying he agrees.  This is, yes, just a forum for people to speak before the inevitable happens.

  9. 9.

    Cheryl Rofer

    Apparently Shinkle is still enjoying his fifteen minutes of fame, but

  13. 13.

    Frankensteinbeck

    @Cheryl Rofer:

    Apparently Shinkle is still enjoying his fifteen minutes of fame

    Basically how I see it.  More performative assholery, like the two in Wayne County who voted to confirm and then went “Oh, we would totally take that back if only it weren’t too late!”

  14. 14.

    Cheryl Rofer

    Aaannnnd! They have voted.

  16. 16.

    Barbara

    @Frankensteinbeck: The governor should remove him from his position notwithstanding the certification of the vote.

    I assume that the two Republicans flipped a coin or made some other kind of deal to decide who would vote yea so the other could burnish his reputation for being willing to suppress votes.

  20. 20.

    Kay

    @schrodingers_cat:

    I get it that none of this matters and it’s all some kind of ultra sophisticated kabuki but Dem VOTERS don’t see it that way and they won’t see it that way. What they see is no one, once again, on their side.

    But hey, they did a bang up job. For some reason our multimillion dollar campaign apparatus and elected officials couldn’t be bothered to lend a hand, but it looks like Dem voters pulled it out.

    How many times are they supposed to save this country? One would think a powerful person or two would lift a fucking finger at some point to help them, but I guess that would be gauche.

    Good job, Democratic voters in Michigan! I think I’ll start donating to them directly. I could pay them for a day spend defending Democratic electeds, to start.

  23. 23.

    CaseyL

    The Michigan Board has passed the motion to certify the Presidential election resultss.

    *whew*

    That was a big hurdle. I’ve given up trying to keep track, but is that all we needed to put Biden over the top?  Or do we still need to sweat any state certifications?  (PA comes to mind, since Trump’s Crazy Clown Posse is still filing in the courts.)

  24. 24.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Kay:

    One would think a powerful person or two would lift a fucking finger at some point to help them, but I guess that would be gauche.

    who are you talking about and what do you want them to do

    ETA: Hasn’t Marc Elias and his team been deeply involved in this as lawyers for the Biden campaign and/or national party? and by “this”, I mean addressing these challenges in court? I’ll admit it’s hard for me to keep up with the meshegas from state to state

  25. 25.

    Emma from FL

    @Kay: Don’t take this wrong, because I am, for once, not being sarcastic, but what would you have wanted democrats to do, Kay?

  26. 26.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    @CaseyL: isn’t Penn were one of the GOP lawyers is claiming the vote is invalid because him and his wife voted illegally?

  27. 27.

    Frankensteinbeck

    @Emma from FL:

    that disappearing creature

    Bear in mind that all across the country the overwhelming, 99.99% of Republican officials have been doing their job and processing the election as normal.  Republican judges are laughing Trump’s idiocy out of court.  The system is working just fine.  There’s just no reason to hear from the ones doing their job, so we’re besieged with every asshole who wants to wave a ‘Look at me, I hate Democrats!’ flag.  We are watching in action why other Republicans besides Trump do not pull this shit.  It’s because it doesn’t work.

  32. 32.

    Baud

    @CaseyL: I’m not sure where AZ and NV stand.  I think PA is the big outstanding swing state.  CA hasn’t certified, but … you know.

  34. 34.

    HumboldtBlue

    I was following proceedings via Tom Levenson’s Twitter feed than I got bored and watch an Army University Press video.

  36. 36.

    Ken

    @CaseyL: I’ve given up trying to keep track, but is that all we needed to put Biden over the top?

    In a sane world, yes.  In this world, I expect to see the insane Trumpite at the GSA quibbling because California hasn’t certified yet.

  38. 38.

    Kay

    @Emma from FL:

    I want them to advocate on behalf of these people. That is the job, correct? They “represent” the people of Michigan?

    The people of Michigan are there. Where are their representatives?

    Look, just forget it. As always, There Is Nothing We Can Do. These people did something. They showed up a zoom meeting. Maybe it’s better Democrats weren’t advising them. If Democrats had been advising them none of them would have showed up. I’m just watching the difference between actual peoples’ reaction to this and the frantic attempts to minimize it and seeing a disconnect. Why are our people always undefended?

  39. 39.

    Cheryl Rofer

  40. 40.

    Frankensteinbeck

    @Ken:

    I expect to see the insane Trumpite at the GSA quibbling because California hasn’t certified yet.

    If she never certifies and there is no transition until Biden takes power on Jan 20th, then that is only an obnoxious nuisance.  It doesn’t change the election.

  43. 43.

    Cheryl Rofer

    !!!!!

  45. 45.

    Felanius Kootea

    @Cheryl Rofer: My goodness.  All those people flown from Michigan to the White House for nothing.

    Hahahahahahah!  I’m getting so petty as this farce goes on.

  46. 46.

    Matt McIrvin

    @Baud: I think Arizona’s fine. Counties have already certified. The state certifies on the 30th, but there is nothing like Michigan’s state board of canvassers; the process is in the hands of the Democratic secretary of state. I know someone who knows her and says she will brook no bullshit whatsoever.

    Nevada certifies tomorrow; I’ve heard of no major obstacles.

  52. 52.

    cain

    I would love to recruit a front pager who knows the intricacies of House and Senate rules. Because going forward we are going to need to be educated to know what’s possible and what’s not.

    It seems the USGSA has not bothered to come and going to just show up for 30 minutes. It seems that we have increased the power of the senate and reduced the power of the house. If the house can’t use their investigative power because of open disrespect and defiance – I’m not sure what the path is going forward.

    There are people arguing that Pelosi can change the rules, but you know – what does that mean and what is the price to be paid for making changes like that? Is their a price? Ted Lieu has been on twitter saying that it takes years to litigate a subpoena and that we need to change to a new normal.

    Having someone explain all this would be really nice. I don’t want to be reactionary because right now that’s what everyone is doing – I’d like to know what is on Nancy’s mind and possible options she might have in regards to this.

  53. 53.

    Kay

    @schrodingers_cat:

    I want them to speak to their voters and tell them they will defend them. And then do it. Not because it’s a good political strategy- I don’t know or care if it is-but because it’s the right thing to do.

    It shouldn’t be so hard to get elected Democrats to speak to the people who just voted for them. For three weeks now these voters have been under an absolute GOP assault to smear them as felons and throw out their votes. Democrats have decided the smart political move is to pretend it’s not happening? Did anyone ask these voters if that works for them?

  58. 58.

    scav

    At some point, I think it’s also a good lesson to the citizens in this country to learn that yes, they too have to get involved and not leave it all to their elected officials.  It’s more than just ticking a few boxes every two or four years and relaxing back to distractions, hobbies and “real life”.  Then how many citizens con’t even get off their duffs to do that, and/or just ignore everything but the top-tier candidates.

  59. 59.

    Emma from FL

    @Kay: Don’t blow up at me. I am on your side, dammit. You’re one of the most admirable people I know. But you seem to be trying to say that if some Democrat showed up and screamed, the Republican assholes would have been shamed into behaving? The Democratic governor had already warned them she would take steps if they bollixed the vote up. There were democratic lawyers at every legal step. What else?

  61. 61.

    cain

    Thank god it is over – can we now get the GSA to do the transition or not? If it doesn’t happen now – I wonder what avenues we have left?

  63. 63.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Baud: from Cole’s twitter feed

    november blaine @blainecapatch Nov 21
    he turned one day of losing into eighteen days of losing, it’s like republican Hanukkah

  64. 64.

    Baud

    @cain: Yeah, I’m hoping that GSA put off the meeting with the Dems because they plan on certifying the transition this week now that the state certifications are done.  If not, then it might be time for Biden to sue.

  65. 65.

    Kay

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    There’s no need to patronize me. You know I don’t want them to “rush the stage”. I want them to be advocates. Characterizing advocacy as somehow silly and unnecessary insults the Dem voters who just spent four hours unpaid to defend Joe Biden and Peters. Advocates. That’s what voters did.

    Pay them back. For goddamned ONCE stand up for them and stop worrying about what people will think. These are their people, not Jake Tapper.

  66. 66.

    randy khan

    @Cheryl Rofer:

    It will be hard for anyone to say she isn’t qualified.

    I would guess that one of her first acts would be reversing Mnuchin’s decision to cut off one of the key Fed programs that are keeping things from falling apart completely.  Unfortunately, a lot of that money disappears on December 31 unless Mnuchin changes his mind.

  69. 69.

    Baud

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Haha.

    And because Trump chose to drag it out, the meeting of the electoral college, Pence announcing the votes in the Senate, and the official confirmation of the election by Congress, they will all be made-for-TV events!  So much more losing in store for Trump.

  70. 70.

    schrodingers_cat

    @Kay: I disagree with you, if elected Ds start interfering in the certification process by making public pronouncements on Twitter and in the press then they would be playing on the Orange Clown’s turf.

    I also remember there was a time during primaries where you were freaking out how Bloomberg was going to get the nomination. So your judgment is not always infallible.

  72. 72.

    cain

    @Baud:

    @cain: Yeah, I’m hoping that GSA put off the meeting with the Dems because they plan on certifying the transition this week now that the state certifications are done.  If not, then it might be time for Biden to sue.

    one can hope but yes, there should be a lawsuit in the works and ready to go. There should be no more obstacles now.

  74. 74.

    geg6

    @Kay:

    I have no idea what you are talking about.  My Dem Senator and Lt. Governor have been all over every type of media, defending voters here in PA.  I have no complaints, as I’ve witnessed them do it multiple times just in the last week.

  75. 75.

    Matt McIrvin

    @Cheryl Rofer: btw, Biden’s margin in PA now stands at 80,459, which is admirably close to the rough projections of a 100k margin that were made before the state even flipped.

  78. 78.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    @Kent: I stand corrected. But the Republicans in this a reminded me of the Onion episode were the Onion was demanding Homeland Security explain how a team of Onion reporters were able to smuggle weapons on to an airliner, hijack it and then set off a bomb  killing everyone on board,

  79. 79.

    Brachiator

    @cain:

    Thank god it is over – can we now get the GSA to do the transition or not? If it doesn’t happen now – I wonder what avenues we have left?

    The main responsibility of the GSA is releasing some funds related to the transition. Whether there is co-operation is mainly up to Trump and Biden’s team have been working around the assholes.

  80. 80.

    TS (the original)

    @randy khan:

     Unfortunately, a lot of that money disappears on December 31 unless Mnuchin changes his mind.

    Because of his negotiations with Pelosi (which came to nothing) Mnuchin was seen as the “sane one” in the trump administration but they are all going to burn down the bridges before they leave. Mnuchin won’t change his mind. No way any of them want to help anyone except themselves.

  82. 82.

    Kay

    @Emma from FL:

    I feel like you’re all doing this “screaming” or “rush the stage” to diminish what I’m asking for.

    Would it have been so hard for congressional Democrats to initiate some kind of back and forth with their voters where they asked them “hey- how is it there in Detroit and Philadelphia where they’re threatening to throw your votes out every day? What do you need from us to fight back?”

    How much are voters supposed to do? Carry these people all the way to swearing in? That’s a lot to ask.

    The Democratic voters who testified didn’t scream. They simply stood up for themselves and thank goodness they did because no one else was. I’m donating to them from now on. If they’re representing themselves and advocating on their own behalf I don’t think I need a “Democratic Party” jammed with operatives.

  83. 83.

    cain

    @lgerard:

    Has anyone reached out to Hugo Chavez for his thoughts on this development?

    I believe he’s in a session with Herman Cain. But don’t worry Herman will tweet out what happened.

  84. 84.

    Matt McIrvin

    @Baud: While there were a lot of polling misses this year and a lot of predictions that were proved wrong, I think the depth of the wrongness was greatly exaggerated by counting delays in the early days after the election (“red mirage” in some states and to a lesser extent “blue mirage” elsewhere). And it also made it seem like projections based on the early vote counting were way off. As late counts keep trickling in the situation looks less and less baffling and insane.

  85. 85.

    Kay

    @geg6:

    Your lt governor know how to be an advocate, I’ll give you that. He thankfully missed the part of orientation that says “keep you mouth shut and let Donald Trump’s sleazy operatives attack your voters while you stay above the fray”.

  86. 86.

    cain

    @Brachiator: The main responsibility of the GSA is releasing some funds related to the transition. Whether there is co-operation is mainly up to Trump and Biden’s team have been working around the assholes.

    As Baud indicated, a lawsuit then against her, and the Trump administration/campaign with a massive fine. Suck more money out of them driving them further into desperation for cash.

  87. 87.

    fake irishman

    I actually knew Julie Matuzak a bit from my decade in Michigan (I was part of a grad union at UM, so I got a lot of e-mails from her in her day job at the American Federation of Teachers’ Michigan organization). Back in 2012, there was a keruffle over certifying signatures to put a worker’s rights proposition on the ballot. Julie played the same role in that dispute (courts finally ordered it on the ballot as Prop 2, where, in a gut punch, it lost).

    During the dispute, a mutual acquaintance introduced us at an AFT event in Detroit. I noted wryly that she seemed to be busy that summer. She laughed and told me that some one had asked if she’d be interested in one of the Democratic slots on the commission a few years before and told her it would be really quiet, low-key straightforward, non-controversial work.

    Glad to see our humble blog host giving her props; she’s a straight shooter who’s put in a lot of work on the side of angels over the years.

    (Incidentally, that was also around the time I joined Balloon Juice community. Kay did me a great favor in front-paging a plea to help stop an anti-union bill targeting RAs at the University of Michigan. The bill passed, but you guys who lived in the state did your part to try to stop it; it was a nice intro into how supportive this place can be, and I’ve always appreciated it, though I lurk more than comment now).

  91. 91.

    Barbara

    @Kay: But haven’t they?  Apparently, at least one Democratic official realized that the Wayne County Republican electors would try to hold up certification and worked hard to spread the word to ensure that voters would be able to participate in the meeting, and express their displeasure.  I actually think giving voters themselves the chance to speak out is the best kind of advocacy, but a Wayne County board member contributed a barn burner of a speech excoriating the Republican members and calling them racists to their face.

    In the court cases, where possible, Democratic organizations have intervened.

    Just not sure what you think should be happening that isn’t.

  92. 92.

    Felanius Kootea

    @Kay: Okay, now I understand what you’re saying about Dem representatives in MI.

    While it all worked out in MI, I have to say that I really admired how PA’s Lt. Governor Fetterman handled the “voter fraud” allegations by Republicans, issuing some amazing smackdowns, and asking for that GOP million dollar reward after pointing out that the only identified cases of voter fraud in PA were … Republicans.

  94. 94.

    mrmoshpotato

    So. Much. Winning. (Still not tired, and Dump is a LOSER!)

    Trump just lost in Pennsylvania Supreme Court. Again. This is just embarrassing. I’ve never ever seen someone lose more so fast.— Neal Katyal (@neal_katyal) November 23, 2020

  95. 95.

    cmorenc

    When Michigan certifies today and Pennsylvania finishes certifying Monday (all but four small counties won by Trump, and then by mid-week) – that locks in 270+ electoral votes for Biden.  That should provide Emily Murphy  sufficient certainty of the winner to give her cover to release transition funds, unless she’s a complete hack.

  96. 96.

    Brachiator

    @cain:

    As Baud indicated, a lawsuit then against her, and the Trump administration/campaign with a massive fine. Suck more money out of them driving them further into desperation for cash.

    Fine by me, although I doubt that the Trump campaign would pay up (and the Trump administration is us, the American people). No matter, the transition will continue and we are headed for Biden’s inauguration. All this other crap has been nothing but a tiresome distraction.

  98. 98.

    hitless

    @Kay: I agree. A prominent Democratic office holder or former president or someone that would get media attention needed to:

    1) Say that Republicans are trying to overturn a fair election

    2) Point out that the “irregularities” were 600 something ballots which is not enough to make a difference AND demonstrates that Republicans are simply looking to overturn a fair election.

    Without pushback, people will buy into the idea that something weird went on in Wayne county – it’s what they will reminder. Right now more people think impeachment was a scam to overturn an election than think this was. That’s unacceptable.

    Democrats need to not be afraid to point out the truth.

  100. 100.

    Emma from FL

    @Kay:  No, I am not. My word on it. Maybe part of my problem is that I know too much about Michigan folk — dear God, if I could go back to college I would make sure my oldest and best friend would not marry a Grand Rapids boy even if I had to commit murder. The typical Michigan conservative is stubborn stupid; the more you argue the more they dig in their heels, especially if the person arguing is an “outsider”.

    BTW, I have never made a donation to the large Democratic organizations. I give to local groups and to people trying to keep people afloat, like my local Church.

  101. 101.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Felanius Kootea: Fetterman’s been a lot of fun, the PA AG comes across as competent and intelligent on TV. Malcom Kenyatta, PA state rep, has been on the Maddow and O’Donnell programs. Gretchen Whitmer and/or Jocelyn Benson have been on MSNBC, and I imagine CNN and other networks, pretty much every day in last couple of weeks. I imagine state level pols are doing local TV and sending out press releases and speaking to community groups in their districts and tweeting and….

    None of these things can or have, that I can see, retroactively change/d state election laws and change the process that MI and PA election officials have to go through.

  103. 103.

    mrmoshpotato

    @NotMax:

    Affirming the structure of democracy is never a waste of time. 

    Neither is taking democracy and bashing Trump trash in the face with it.

    Cry harder, you fascist orange Nazi shitpiles.

  104. 104.

    Kent

    @schrodingers_cat:@Baud: Agreed. All that bloviating about how Biden lost the Hispanic vote is based on incomplete data.

    Two comments on this:

    First, we know that the pre-election polls were bad.  And exit-polls are notoriously worse.  So any data based on exit polling may simply be statistical noise.  Hillary’s numbers in 2016 may have been overstated and Biden’s numbers in 2020 may have been understated.  We don’t really know.

    Second, we do have actual votes from heavily Hispanic precincts in places like the Rio Grande Valley where many precincts are over 90% Hispanic.  Those are actual results not based on polling.  And Trump did seem to do better down there.

    So, I would be skeptical of polling data, especially exit polls.  But we also have actual voting patterns to examine and in some cases they do look problematic.  Trump did make gains in some heavily Hispanic areas.  There is no getting around that.

    We’ve discussed this before. But in my opinion, the correct way to look at a lot of the rural Hispanic population in places like TX is that they are really more wannabe white working class than anything else.  They aren’t an automatic Democratic constituency.

  105. 105.

    trollhattan

    Elections have consequences.

    America’s largest automaker, in a dramatic break with the Trump administration, declared Monday it would side with California in a fierce battle over climate change, tailpipe emissions and fuel economy.

    General Motors Corp. announced it will drop out of litigation between California and the Trump administration over rules governing greenhouse gas emissions from cars.

    The decision reflects former Vice President Joe Biden’s victory over President Donald Trump — and the considerable clout California will wield in the new administration over environmental matters. Mary Nichols, chairwoman of the California Air Resources Board, is reportedly among the top candidates for administrator of the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency.

    “We believe the ambitious electrification goals of the President-elect, California, and General Motors are aligned to address climate change by drastically reducing automobile emissions,” GM Chief Executive Marry Barra wrote in a letter to environmental groups that have been fighting the automaker in court.

    “We are confident that the Biden Administration, California, and the U.S. auto industry, which supports 10.3 million jobs, can collaboratively find the pathway that will deliver an all-electric future. To better foster the necessary dialogue, we are immediately withdrawing from the preemption litigation and inviting other automakers to join us.”
    https://www.sacbee.com/news/local/environment/article247375204.html#storylink=cpy

    That was quick.

  108. 108.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @hitless:

    I agree. A prominent Democratic office holder or former president or someone that would get media attention needed to:

    Google “Obama trump election”. These things have been said, and pointed out, in the media.

  109. 109.

    zhena gogolia

    Remarkable for a chief of homeland security to define their job as the protection of Americans and, right alongside that, of “those who flee persecution in search of a better life for themselves and their loved ones.” https://t.co/wcgH1r50oB— Anand Giridharadas (@AnandWrites) November 23, 2020

  110. 110.

    scav

    @trollhattan: Well, it’s not as though GM has principles — they can at least manage to read the writing on the wall and get the PR team assembled in time.

    Headlines useful at least.

  111. 111.

    Brachiator

    @Cheryl Rofer:

    GSA Administrator Emily Murphy was supposed to brief Congressional leadership today about why she’s obstructing a smooth transition of power. She refused to show up, and now she’s trying to send her deputy next week in her place.

    The farce continues.

  112. 112.

    cmorenc

    @Matt McIrvin:

    @Baud: While there were a lot of polling misses this year and a lot of predictions that were proved wrong, I think the depth of the wrongness was greatly exaggerated by counting delays in the early days after the election (“red mirage” in some states and to a lesser extent “blue mirage” elsewhere)

    I’ll bet that much of the polling miss was due to Trump’s ability to motivate a significantly larger share of voters the pollsters were not including as “likely” voters to turn out, as well as under-sampling problems due to precisely these latent types of voters being less responsively accessible to pollsters.

    Even if so, it’s scary that Trump managed to attract 10 million more voters to turn out for him than in 2016 – which says a lot about their epistemological closure within the RW propaganda bubble.  Consider how many casual overheard comments you came across about how Biden is senile, despite vivid demonstration to the contrary during debated and speeches.

  114. 114.

    lgerard

    The trump lawyer in Wisconsin seeking to disqualify his own vote has to be close to peak wingnut.

  117. 117.

    Matt McIrvin

    @cmorenc:  Probably, though similar things happened in 2016 and the pollsters thought they’d adjusted.

    An interesting example of red mirage is my old home state of Virginia. After Election Day, it was clear that Biden had carried Virginia but I was really disconcerted by the apparent gains Trump had made there since 2016, even in NoVa. It looked way too close for comfort.

    Turns out that was all an illusion. Biden actually gained over Clinton 2016 in Virginia. It’s the bluest the state has voted in a long time, at least for President.

  118. 118.

    MisterForkbeard

    @cmorenc: I’m currently in a running facebook comment conversation on NPR with a die-hard trumpist. She keeps posting “73 Trump, 55 Biden, 23 Bernie” and won’t explain what it means other than “real voters”.

    I asked (respectfully) what that actually was – it can’t be percentages, it’s certainly not raw vote totals, and it’s not electors. So what is it?

    She just keeps repeating “73 Trump 55 Biden 23 Bernie, real voters with real votes” over and over again. It’s a talisman and apparently fully self-explanatory to her. Trump’s followers really do live in their own world.

  119. 119.

    topclimber

    @Kay: I share your overarching concern that the GOP will now contest every election at every level…or might.

    In this particular instance, though, I prefer a story where the push back is from voters rather than politicians. If Dem officeholders carry the fight, the media makes it both sides story between GOP and Dem politicos. It is harder to run that scam when regular people are the stars.

    Oh, and hell yeah, voters better understand that at the end of the day they need to fight for their rights themselves. Some leaders will be in the vanguard, others will follow.  But we will keep our democracy because people want it enough to fight, or  lose it because they don’t.

  120. 120.

    The Moar You Know

    America’s largest automaker, in a dramatic break with the Trump administration, declared Monday it would side with California in a fierce battle over climate change, tailpipe emissions and fuel economy.

    @trollhattan: huh, Trump was wrong. I’m not getting tired of any of this winning at all.

  123. 123.

    MisterForkbeard

    @Baud: I’m utterly mystified by it. I mean, I literally do not get what she’s talking about and I can usually figure this stuff out when I think about it.

    So yeah, it’s a Dan Brown novel.

  124. 124.

    Brachiator

    @Kent:

    So, I would be skeptical of polling data, especially exit polls. But we also have actual voting patterns to examine and in some cases they do look problematic. Trump did make gains in some heavily Hispanic areas. There is no getting around that.

    Hispanic people are not a monolith. A lot of people, of all ideologies, just can’t get that.

    We’ve discussed this before. But in my opinion, the correct way to look at a lot of the rural Hispanic population in places like TX is that they are really more wannabe white working class than anything else. They aren’t an automatic Democratic constituency.

    Hispanic people don’t necessarily see themselves as wannabe pendejos. And their roots in Texas and other parts of America go back deeper and further than that of a lot of people who believe that they can define who is who and who belongs.

  126. 126.

    gwangung

    @Kent:

    But in my opinion, the correct way to look at a lot of the rural Hispanic population in places like TX is that they are really more wannabe white working class than anything else.  They aren’t an automatic Democratic constituency.

    Yeah, that’s obvious from the behavior of a lot of the Asian American community; a lot of them think of themselves as white (or, at least, that racism only applies to “those” folks–i.e., blacks).
    Not sure they’ve been disabused of that notion by the racism induced by the pandemic.

  129. 129.

    TS (the original)

    @Cheryl Rofer:

    I do not understand how all the trump appointees can refuse to appear before congress when requested. It appears only republicans can get people to appear – given the continual appearance of government officers during the Obama Presidency.

  130. 130.

    Citizen_X

    @Kent: the correct way to look at a lot of the rural Hispanic population in places like TX is that they are really more wannabe white working class than anything else.

    And? What does that mean, in terms of action?

     

    The RGV has been reliably blue for decades. If that has changed now (and I want to see results once all the votes are counted before I’ll believe that), then why? Sorry if I’ve got this wrong, but it sounds like you want to dismiss the loss of a voting bloc.

  132. 132.

    scav

    @MisterForkbeard:

    She just keeps repeating “73 Trump 55 Biden 23 Bernie, real voters with real votes” over and over again.

    Break it to her gently that it’s “man woman person camera tv” and she’s thus failed the test.

  133. 133.

    germy

    Oh God. These monsters are pitting Corn and Cob against each other.

    Which turkey should President Trump pardon at this year’s National Thanksgiving Turkey Pardoning Ceremony—Corn or Cob?

    — The White House (@WhiteHouse) November 23, 2020

  135. 135.

    Martin

    Remember, this may be a personal fit by the President, but all of the republicans looking the other way or going along with this are doing so because they fundamentally believe that black/urban/democrat/whathaveyou voters are undeserving of having a vote. What’s more, they’re getting more emboldened to try and eliminate that right.

    There’s a reason Dem Senators ask judicial nominees if they think Brown vs Board was rightly decided. Republicans don’t think it was. We’re mostly just waiting until they’re proud enough of that view to admit it.

  137. 137.

    Major Major Major Major

    @gwangung:

    Yeah, that’s obvious from the behavior of a lot of the Asian American community; a lot of them think of themselves as white (or, at least, that racism only applies to “those” folks–i.e., blacks).
    Not sure they’ve been disabused of that notion by the racism induced by the pandemic.

    Having spoken to a number of Vietnamese-Americans who flipped to Trump, they were motivated mostly by getting their news from Vietnamese-language VOA segments, and Trump sounding tough on China. They can also be dispositionally “conservative”–big on education, marriage, business, etc. Trump calling something the “kung flu” doesn’t make a dent.

    So for them at least, it has nothing to do with aspirational whiteness, which seems kind of like you’re writing off real differences as minorities being racist. Which doesn’t help anybody, certainly not us if our goal is to win votes.

    As for the Tejano swing, I read some interviews where they just liked that Trump’s name was on their COVID bucks check. I’d be willing to buy an aspirational-whiteness more for them, if only because a lot of them look and act white, even if they’re named Gutierrez.

  140. 140.

    Matt McIrvin

    @Baud: The other thing worth noting is that while the late count leaned Democratic in most swing states (other than Arizona), the really late count over the past couple of days has leaned Republican, as things like rural provisional ballots dribble in. So Biden’s margin has actually been decreasing slightly in most of them. But these are really small changes, nothing that will affect the results much, and they’re about to get nailed down.

  147. 147.

    Chyron HR

    @Major Major Major Major:

    Having spoken to a number of Vietnamese-Americans who flipped to Trump, they were motivated mostly by getting their news from Vietnamese-language VOA segments, and Trump sounding tough on China. They can also be dispositionally “conservative”–big on education, marriage, business, etc. Trump calling something the “kung flu” doesn’t make a dent.

    Oh, okay, so they’re assholes.

    As for the Tejano swing, I read some interviews where they just liked that Trump’s name was on their COVID bucks check.

    Oh, okay, so they’re dumb rubes.

  148. 148.

    Cameron

    @germy: “…and the turkey said, he said, he had tears in his eyes, he said ‘Thank you, Mr. President!  Thank you, sir!'”

  151. 151.

    Cheryl Rofer

    @TS (the original): Ted Lieu has an answer for you.


    Like many other aspects of the rule of law that Trump and the Republicans have repudiated, government accountability to Congress depends on good faith and all parties working for the good of the country.

  153. 153.

    Kent

    @Brachiator:Hispanic people don’t necessarily see themselves as wannabe pendejos. And their roots in Texas and other parts of America go back deeper and further than that of a lot of people who believe that they can define who is who and who belongs.

    In a south that is still defined by black vs white in many areas, I suspect most Hispanics would indeed see themselves as more white.  But point taken, probably an inartful turn of phrase on my part.   Nevertheless, when you are talking about a community that works largely in construction trades, factories, or small businesses, lives in suburban or rural areas, drives lots of big American-made pickup trucks, and attends lot of evangelical churches you are basically describing a lot of the same characteristics that also apply to the so-called white working class.    This is not a slam-dunk Democratic constituency no matter how much urban Democrats might wish it to be so.

    The larger point is that the same appeals that Democrats need to make to appeal to the so-called white working class are the exact same appeals they are going to need to make to appeal to a lot of working class Hispanics.

  156. 156.

    Cheryl Rofer

    Good news! I guess she couldn’t take Katie Porter’s burn.

  157. 157.

    Major Major Major Major

    @Kent: If you look at polling, a lot of Latinos don’t really care about immigration policy and/or oppose undocumented immigration, too. A lot of Democrats think our policies on those issues should provide net Latino support but I don’t know how much evidence there really is for that.

  158. 158.

    Matt McIrvin

    @Martin: Many really believe that millions of voters are non-citizens. Recall, there was an attempt to claim that Kamala Harris was ineligible to serve as VP because, even though nobody disputed that she was born in California, having the wrong kind of parents made her not a natural-born citizen.

    The argument actually implied that she wasn’t a citizen at all, since she was never naturalized–and that, furthermore, huge numbers of people born here are not citizens, and presumably shouldn’t be able to vote. Take it a step further–since they don’t have any sort of visa, the argument directly implies that these people born in the US are all “illegal aliens” subject to deportation (to… somewhere).

  159. 159.

    Kent

    @Chyron HR:Having spoken to a number of Vietnamese-Americans who flipped to Trump, they were motivated mostly by getting their news from Vietnamese-language VOA segments, and Trump sounding tough on China. They can also be dispositionally “conservative”–big on education, marriage, business, etc. Trump calling something the “kung flu” doesn’t make a dent.

    Vietnam and China have centuries-old friction.  There is no Asian-solidarity there.  The older Vietnamese that I know are virulently anti-Chinese.  They have fought wars against each other.

  161. 161.

    gwangung

    @Major Major Major Major: Probably had an effect, and Vietnamese are akin to Cuban Americans (with probably better reason; years of military and economic support cements that support).

    But there are wide currents of anti-blackness in all the Asian American communities, from East Asian to Pacific Islanders to Southeast Asians; a whole lot of folks buy into the model minority myth.

    And of course a lot of Latinx think of themselves as white because they trace almost all of their DNA to European origins, with little indigenous ancestry

  162. 162.

    Roger Moore

    @Kent:

    I think there’s probably also some truth to the idea that Trump’s campaign was good at microtargeting.  They may not have been quite to the point of targeting specific individuals the way Cambridge Analytica claimed to be able to do, but I think they were good at identifying specific groups (e.g. Hispanics in the RGV) who were potentially reachable and targeting them.  It helps that they were completely shameless about doing this through misinformation, but they definitely seem to have been able to target small groups effectively.

  163. 163.

    Baud

    @Major Major Major Major:

    A lot of Democrats think our policies on those issues should provide net Latino support but I don’t know how much evidence there really is for that.

    We do this all the time, across a range of issues.

  164. 164.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @germy:

    Which turkey should President Trump pardon at this year’s National Thanksgiving Turkey Pardoning Ceremony—Corn or Cob?

    When did we start naming things to eat after other things to eat?

  168. 168.

    Major Major Major Major

    @gwangung:

    Probably had an effect, and Vietnamese are akin to Cuban Americans (with probably better reason; years of military and economic support cements that support).

    But there are wide currents of anti-blackness in all the Asian American communities, from East Asian to Pacific Islanders to Southeast Asians; a whole lot of folks buy into the model minority myth.

    This is all true but I thought I’d focus on personal experience since I’m white :)

    I haven’t really dug into it since we’re still waiting for exit polls to be fixed, but I think the Asian swing towards Trump was mostly Vietnamese and Indian?

    We also shouldn’t discount the damage Trump did at VOA. A lot of minority Americans get their news via VOA’s foreign-language reporting.

  169. 169.

    Nora Lenderbee

    @Kent: Maybe we can refer to this voting bloc by some of those attributes (rural, blue-collar, small business, evangelical, etc.) instead of “wannabe whites.”

  171. 171.

    Citizen Alan

    @TS (the original): Democrats called as witnesses have nothing to hide and aren’t afraid to testify under oath for hours at a time. That Murphy creature knows she couldn’t get through her opening statement without committing perjury.

  172. 172.

    Martin

    @Matt McIrvin: You’re trying to hard to validate it. Black people aren’t citizens because they are black. Liberals aren’t citizens because they are liberal.

    Only conservatives can determine who or who is not deserving of being an American. That’s the foundational principal of conservatism, on which everything else is built. Consider that Obama was born in Hawaii and McCain in Panama, and it was Obama whose qualifications were questioned, with no questions raised about McCain, even during the primaries. McCain was an American because of course he was, and Obama was foreign because of course he was.

  173. 173.

    Matt McIrvin

    @Major Major Major Major: I’d heard that “Biden is a Communist” was an effective attack for groups other than Florida Cubans, particularly some Vietnamese, Cambodian and Hmong immigrants genuinely terrified of the US turning into a Communist state.

  174. 174.

    Kent

    @Major Major Major Major: If you look at polling, a lot of Latinos don’t really care about immigration policy and/or oppose undocumented immigration, too. A lot of Democrats think our policies on those issues should provide net Latino support but I don’t know how much evidence there really is for that.

    Exactly.  Latino is basically a made-up concept anyway.  They are Cuban, Mexican, Salvadoran, Dominican, etc.  And even the Mexicans are self-identify as much by region or state.   And when you are talking about people who vote, you are mostly talking about 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc. generation or more.  Which means many are actually about as Hispanic as I am Swedish because I happen to have a Swedish last name brought over by a Swedish ancestor around 1820.

    We don’t assume that some educated white liberal living in Seattle or Brooklyn has some sense of solidary with a MAGA dude in a big truck from North Dakota or West Virginia just because they are both “Anglo” do we?  Of course not.  We don’t assume any sort of ethnic or racial solidarity within the larger white community in this country because there is none.  Which is why you shouldn’t assume any sort of solidarity between some 6th Generation Hispanic businessman who runs a roofing contracting business in the Dallas suburbs and some  Salvadoran or Honduran undocumented immigrants at the border.

  175. 175.

    Eolirin

    @MisterForkbeard:  All I can think of, and it’s dumb and makes no sense, is that those are vote totals in millions, and that Biden is somehow illegitimately winning because of Sanders supporters.

  177. 177.

    schrodingers_cat

    I am interested in the AAPI survey that comes out after the elections. Indian Americans were targeted by Modi’s troll factory saying Biden and Harris are pro-Pakistan and anti-India.

  179. 179.

    Roger Moore

    @gwangung:

    Yeah, that’s obvious from the behavior of a lot of the Asian American community; a lot of them think of themselves as white (or, at least, that racism only applies to “those” folks–i.e., blacks).

    Again, this seems to vary a lot between different parts of the Asian American community.  For example, a lot of the Chinese Americans I knew didn’t really get this, though they seem to be getting it a lot better these days.  I think a lot of the Vietnamese Americans are beyond reach, especially the generation who were old enough to fight in the war.  And I’ve been told that Indian Americans- who I have less personal experience with- lean much more liberal.

  181. 181.

    Martin

    @Baud: Yep. I’ve never quite understood why immigration would appeal to most latinos when there are plenty of parts of the nation where the latinos were here long before the white folks showed up.

    It appeals to part of the community but not really the ones that Dems need to win.

  182. 182.

    debbie

    @Eolirin:

    Off a bit because Biden’s over 79 million, but you’re probably right. Republican were using this same argument after Clinton beat Bush in 1992.

  184. 184.

    Kent

    @Nora Lenderbee:@Kent: Maybe we can refer to this voting bloc by some of those attributes (rural, blue-collar, small business, evangelical, etc.) instead of “wannabe whites.”

    I agree.  Poor turn of phrase on my part.  The point I was trying to make is that many Hispanics basically aspire to the same successful working class life that we label the white working class.  Good solid blue collar jobs in construction, trades, factories, or small businesses.  In many communities they actually are becoming the new white working class.  I expect that future political appeals are going to have to focus more on the working class identity rather than the Hispanic identity.  I suspect some Republicans know this better than we do.

  185. 185.

    Baud

    @Kent:

    If we become a healthier democracy, we should be losing people of color who are conservative and gaining more whites who support our economic policies.

  186. 186.

    hueyplong

    Not sure what the GOP abstainer in Michigan thinks he got out of that.  Anger from Trump for not voting against; scorn from everyone else for being a total weasel.

    Maybe Kay is my spirit animal, but I just assume the GSA Trumper OK’d the transition because Trump’s minions have destroyed all the records they can destroy.

  187. 187.

    Martin

    @Roger Moore: A lot of older Taiwanese here hate Democrats because of Carters one china policy. That’s their single issue, and until the US formally recognizes Taiwan, they’ll vote Republican – as if the modern GOP gives a shit, but Trump at least gave them some hope even though his opposition to China had nothing to do with Taiwan.

    That’s actually one of the more stubborn issues keeping OC from being bluer.

  189. 189.

    Askew

    @scav: They’re coming out with a new Hummer variant called the Whetherman that automatically drives in whichever direction the wind is blowing. I share your take on this. Will be interesting to see if Toyota and some of the others follow soon.

  190. 190.

    Major Major Major Major

    @Roger Moore: from what I hear a lot of Taiwanese and Vietnamese Americans genuinely think trump was doing a good job being tough on China. Biden is likely to do a better job, and strengthen ties with both countries too—maybe we can make up some ground.

  191. 191.

    piratedan

    maybe what Kay is asking for, doesn’t just need to come from the Gov and the Lieut Gov, I think she’s looking for a united front of local Dems who hold office and have been just elected to office to also indicate that this isn’t JUST about the President, quit making it JUST about him…. this is about everyone who ran for office, be it at the state, federal, local, county level… it makes no difference.  While these asshats swim in these hypothetical waters over something they damn well know the answer to, they are screwing with the will of the voters not just at the Presidential level, but at ALL levels.  Yes, the Presidential vote is important, but so is the entire damn election.

    Quit making it about the fucking narcissist and bring the focus back to the election of all of these offices.

    She wants all of these people elected to back up the will of the voters, be they Dems or Repubs or Greens or what have you…

  195. 195.

    Drdavechemist

    @Eolirin: I was just about to propose the same thing. Somehow the logic must be that since more people voted for an unopposed incumbent in a primary than for the winner of a vigorously challenged primary for the opposition party, that somehow negates the win in the general election.

  196. 196.

    HalfAssedHomesteader

    Current speaker is demanding an investigation be conducted due to the lack of fraud! I kid you not.

  197. 197.

    Humdog

    @MisterForkbeard:

    73 mil for Shitstain

    55 mil for Biden

    23 mil against Shitstain/For Bernie. They didn’t want Biden so your Facebook person won’t give Biden their vote counts, adding up to the (old new) 78 mil votes total for Biden.

    I understand the language of petty

  199. 199.

    Brachiator

    @gwangung:

    But there are wide currents of anti-blackness in all the Asian American communities, from East Asian to Pacific Islanders to Southeast Asians

    Yeah, this is very unfortunate. But a lot of white people also like to lump all nonwhites together and presume that there is or should be not only unity, but a uniformity of experience.  It is a dumb way to avoid understanding diverse communities.

    And of course a lot of Latinx think of themselves as white because they trace almost all of their DNA to European origins, with little indigenous ancestry

    Hispanic views about race are complicated, and often more fucked up than those in “mainstream” American history.  And perception of being blanco often has absolutely nothing to do with DNA or European ancestry.

    I knew a guy who would insist that his daughters say that they were Spanish even though the family was born in Mexico and clearly had some indigenous ancestry, which other family members were proud of.

    I’ve known black Panamanian women who dye their hair red to distinguish themselves from African Americans,

    Another way of looking at this: In Mexico or their other home country, a lot of these folks are white people. It’s only when they come to the US that they become other, Mexican or Hispanic or whatever. And they get people claiming that they think of themselves as white but are … what? something less?

  200. 200.

    cckids

    @Emma from FL: I’m pretty sure what Kay wants is for the Democratic politicians from Michigan (and the other states where this is happening) to be VISIBLY, vocally supporting their voters! Not that they can “do anything” towards changing the process, but to be sure that the voters know they are seen, that their representatives are fighting for them in the court of public opinion. Because the Trumpsters damn well are loudly fighting for their voters.

  202. 202.

    Major Major Major Major

    @Brachiator:

    And of course a lot of Latinx think of themselves as white because they trace almost all of their DNA to European origins, with little indigenous ancestry

    Hispanic views about race are complicated

    The one thing they can all agree on is that they don’t want to be called latinx, if they’ve even heard of it. Pew: About One-in-Four U.S. Hispanics Have Heard of Latinx, but Just 3% Use It

    While some Hispanics say Latinx should be used as a pan-ethnic term, few say they prefer it over others. A majority (61%) say they prefer Hispanic to describe the Hispanic or Latino population in the U.S., and 29% say they prefer Latino. Meanwhile, just 4% say they prefer Latinx to describe the Hispanic or Latino population.

  203. 203.

    Brachiator

    @Major Major Major Major:

    The one thing they can all agree on is that they don’t want to be called latinx, if they’ve even heard of it.

    I quote the term, but tend not to use it in my own posts. I use to use Latino, but I tend to use Hispanic in posts here because I don’t want to get into pointless discussions about it.

    The only people I ever hear using Latinx are some few “woke” college activist types. But even here, I will hear someone say, “Ay, chica, donde vas?” Not “chicx.”

    Also, in California, Mexican Americans would often use Latino to describe themselves and others of Spanish and native descent. Hispanic was more East Coast and Anglo.

  204. 204.

    Miss Bianca

    @Matt McIrvin: How the fuck *anyone* who has lived here for any length of time – even with residual trauma left over from fleeing communist regimes – can come to the conclusion that this country is *ever* going to turn into a Communist hellhole – as opposed to a fascist one – any time soon, is beyond me. If it didn’t happen during the Great Depression, it ain’t happening, period.

  205. 205.

    Kent

    @Brachiator:

    I quote the term, but tend not to use it in my own posts. I use to use Latino, but I tend to use Hispanic in posts here because I don’t want to get into pointless discussions about it.

    The only people I ever hear using Latinx are some few “woke” college activist types. But even here, I will hear someone say, “Ay, chica, donde vas?” Not “chicx.”

    Also, in California, Mexican Americans would often use Latino to describe themselves and others of Spanish and native descent. Hispanic was more East Coast and Anglo.

    That’s because Latino is a Spanish word and Hispanic is not.  It’s an Anglicized version of “Hispano”

  206. 206.

    Brachiator

    @Kent:

    That’s because Latino is a Spanish word and Hispanic is not.

    “Latino” had political connotations among Mexican American activists, especially in the 60s, who did not see themselves as connected to Spain or colonization.

    Latino and la raza went together.

  207. 207.

    Brachiator

    @Miss Bianca:

    How the fuck *anyone* who has lived here for any length of time – even with residual trauma left over from fleeing communist regimes – can come to the conclusion that this country is *ever* going to turn into a Communist hellhole – as opposed to a fascist one – any time soon, is beyond me. If it didn’t happen during the Great Depression, it ain’t happening, period.

    I don’t know. This sounds like a lot of BS to me.

    However, even though with the pandemic, I didn’t pay as much attention to political campaigning, I just don’t recall a lot of attention being paid to Asian Americans in Southern California at all.

    And some of these communities are too small to even be strongly represented in national polls.

    However, while I can imagine that many people who came here from Asian countries in the 1970s and later have more knowledge of autocratic regimes than most blubbering Trumpsters, they may not know or care about what happened in America during the Great Depression.

  209. 209.

    Kent

    @Brachiator:

    “Latino” had political connotations among Mexican American activists, especially in the 60s, who did not see themselves as connected to Spain or colonization.

    Latino and la raza went together.

    Well yes, that too.  But also the actual word Hispanic is not one that you would use if you are speaking Spanish.

  210. 210.

    Kent

    @Citizen Alan:@Major Major Major Major: I had honesty assumed Latinx was meant to be the gender neutral term for Latino/Latina. Was I incorrect?

    It’s something that woke white people invented in universities somewhere.  Spanish-speakers don’t use gender-neutral terms.  The entire language is gendered.  To the extent that Spanish-speakers would use a gender-neutral term, they wouldn’t attach -X to the end of it anyway, which is unpronounceable in Spanish.  I’ve heard that some young LGBT types in Argentina have taken to saying Latine but not Latinx.

    My wife is Latino.  She’s a first-generation immigrant from Chile and she will never in 100-years use Latinx.  She thinks it is completely stupid and says it hurts her ears.

  211. 211.

    Geminid

    @Brachiator: The 1st and second generation Spanish speaking immigrants I’ve worked with and interact with don’t seem like they especially want to emulate anglos, and definitely not the white working class. But they certainly want themselves and their children to be part of the American middle class. My take is that these Americans want what anybody would want: good jobs with good pay, access to decent health care, and the opportunity for education and upward mobility for themselves and their children.  Speaking as a “white” Democrat, I think we should appeal to Spanish speaking Americans in those terms. It’s not like we have to pick some lock.

  214. 214.

    Richard

    @Brachiator: Thank you for your reply to @kent. I don’t know about the whole Hispanic world, but for all my life Mexican-Americans are my friends and neighbors. I like them and they like me. We like each other. In no way would i consider any human as a wannabe working class white person.

  215. 215.

    Pinkpuppy

    @MisterForkbeard:   I’m guessing those are millions of popular votes.  She is splitting the Biden vote among Bernie and Biden.

    As to how Bernie comes in, I’m not sure.   It really is pick your fevered fantasy:

    • only 55 million voters really chose Biden: the rest were lesser evil voters and so Biden has no mandate.
    • She is echoing some Bernie-bot meme how if Bernie had run independent, so Biden is only president as the sufferance of Bernie.
    • Or maybe 23 million of Biden’s voters are really commie/socialists Bernie voters and so Biden lost among real Americans.
  216. 216.

    J R in WV

    @Miss Bianca:

    @lgerard:

    Has anyone reached out to Hugo Chavez for his thoughts on this development?

    LOL! Good one!

    In other news tonight, Generalissimo Francisco Franco is STILL DEAD~!!~

    In the not-to-distant future, that may be a running joke about Donald John Trump! Please, doG!!!

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