President-elect Biden and Vice President-elect Harris today announced new members of the White House staff who will serve in senior communications roles.
For the first time in history, these communications roles will be filled entirely by women.https://t.co/SjWAWJg941
— Biden-Harris Presidential Transition (@Transition46) November 29, 2020
VP-elect Harris will also receive the PDB tomorrow, per transition guidance.
— Natasha Bertrand (@NatashaBertrand) November 30, 2020
All I can think of is all the abuse women journalists have suffered under Trump and how that'll be a thing of the past. https://t.co/Mkp2akMUxg
— emptywheel (@emptywheel) November 29, 2020
Secret Service, yes. But look for Jill Biden, future first lady, to be her husband's chief protector. By @AP's Laurie Kellman https://t.co/joT4Bmwsys
— AP Politics (@AP_Politics) November 29, 2020
Bonus round: NEERA TANDEN!
Joe Biden set to tap Neera Tanden to run the Office of Management and Budget (OMB).
Tanden runs the largest progressive org in the country (Center for American Progress); is smart and tenacious; and takes no shit from weak men threatened by strong women.
Congrats @neeratanden.
— The Hoarse Whisperer (@TheRealHoarse) November 29, 2020
Congratulations to my friend, @neeratanden on her nomination as OMB Director! I worked for OMB in grad school, evaluating grantees of the Telecommunications & Information Infrastructure Assistance Program (TIIAP). Very proud of her & sad for @amprog. But mostly very proud of her.
— Stacey Abrams (@staceyabrams) November 29, 2020
It will take your breath away how quickly the Party of Trump becomes fanatical about civility, conflicts of interest, and the budget deficit https://t.co/WhESA4PWfU
— Matthew Yglesias ?? (@mattyglesias) November 30, 2020
In all seriousness, various Twitter beefs have the left mad at @neeratanden but she’s exactly what’s needed at OMB: Clear-eyed about the nature and purpose of hypocritical deficit games and the need to do what’s possible to prioritize recovery over austerity.
— Matthew Yglesias ? (@mattyglesias) November 29, 2020
The wailing & rending of garments among the GOP Death Cultists and the Cosplay Socialists, as pipelined by Very Serious NYTimes anklebiter Ken Vogel, is absolutely schadenfreudelicious, in a very boutique way. Query: Should I share some of the more amusing snippets in a late-night thread later, or nah?
Context: https://t.co/q6uMZrxgTY
— Daniel W. Drezner (@dandrezner) November 29, 2020
On The Road – Albatrossity – Fall in Flyover Country #4
GeoWHayduke
The wailing from the far left is epic.
satby
@GeoWHayduke: pretty much always if rose twitter is unhappy you can make bank on the thing in question being a good move.
Betty Cracker
I never really understood the antipathy toward Tanden from the alt-left. Is it all about Matt Bruenig getting shit-canned (not Tanden’s fault — Bruenig’s), or is there more to it?
Matt McIrvin
@Betty Cracker: It’s the Bruenig-Greenwald-Tracey orbit making the most noise. I’m not even sure we should be calling these people “the far left”–as far as I can tell they’re people with a weird collection of culturally right-wing/populist/contrarian tendencies who won’t admit it, and claim to be left of the Democrats because that pigeonhole gets them more attention.
And most of this really does seem to have come out of a personal fight between Tanden and Bruenig, amplified by the misogynistic tendency of this whole crowd and the fact that Tanden was associated with Hillary Clinton.
Anne Laurie
@Betty Cracker: It’s mostly, AFAICT, from the same impulse as Bruenig’s sex-pest issues: Tanden is a little brown woman!!! who dares to disrespect her social(ist) betters!!!
At least one tweeter posited that Neera’s become the new Hillary-Beast for a certain group of RoseBros & Rosebro enablers. They’re not completely coherent about what she’s done wrong, apart from having a ‘bad attitude’ and ‘being shrill and unlikeable, probably on purpose.’
So I have been collecting receipts, for my own amusement, which I may or may not share here, depending. Michael Tracey, for one example, presents himself for pig-bladdering by the rude twitter mob…
Matt McIrvin
Anyway, I figure that unless we can pull off a miraculous takeover of the Senate, zero of Biden’s Cabinet picks will get approved. There will be some reason every one of them is an unacceptable socialist radical. He’ll be working with “actings” much as Trump has, the big difference being that Trump preferred that.
OzarkHillbilly
@Betty Cracker: from her Wiki page:
Soprano2
She said something about Libya and oil that upsets them, but I think more than anything she’s associated with Hillary and they hate that. Plus, she’s a brown woman who’s succeeded, and the far left seems to hate that, too. And lastly, they have suddenly (for some reason) rediscovered how offended they are by the use of drones. Trump hugely increased their use, but since they expected that it’s not a big deal to them (at least that’s what I get from Twitter). We all know it’s just that they enjoy punching at other liberals, though.
NotMax
Closed caption funnies. Came this close to doing a spit take while watching a light comedy B-movie from 1930.
Dialogue: “Now isn’t that too bad.”
“Too bad, yeah.”
CC: “Now isn’t that too bad?
“Obama. Yeah.”
For some esoteric reason the closed captioning for this movie displayed entirely in lower case, also too.
Betty Cracker
@Matt McIrvin: I’ve been calling them the “alt-left” because labeling them “leftists” or “progressives” associates them with people who don’t deserve to be lumped in with those cranks, IMO, but you make a great point about them being contrarian jerks who are in it for the clicks.
@Anne Laurie: Thanks. I vaguely remember the kerfluffle when Bruenig was fired and figured it escalated from there. It was obvious at the time Bruenig brought it on himself, but it’s unsurprising he’d blame a woman after suffering the consequences of his own shitty behavior.
Geminid
I was listening to the classical station the other day and heard that German/French composer J. Offenbach wrote a Snowflake Ballet. It may be time for a revival
gene108
I am just glad most people are not on Twitter. So much Twitter drama translates to nothing much in actual impact on the non-Twitter using world.
Anne Laurie
@Betty Cracker: Credit where due, Matt’s more-traditionalist-than-the-Pope-(that-commie) wife Elizabeth has done her level best to elevate ‘questions’ about Tanden… which she is well equipped to do, being as the Washington Post made the mistake of giving her an op-ed slot during that brief primary period where Bernie’s “socialism, but only for working class white people” looked to be the new improved Democratic philosophy.
They’re a one-traditionalist-family, all-purpose outrage shop, and have been of infinite use to the GOP Death Cult for the last couple of years. It will please me no end if the incoming Biden administration turns them into another historical curiosity, the way Obama’s administration did the ‘Tea Party’.
Cameron
The only noise I’ve heard about Neera Tanden is that she allegedly wants to cut or restrict or otherwise do bad things to Social Security. I really doubt that – a Democratic administration that took even a tiny poke at Social Security would vanish in a puff of smoke and take the whole party with it.
Anne Laurie
Absolutely! But Twitter gives those of us bystanders who enjoy watching the political ant farms a glass window into some of the behind-the-scenes DRAMA that used to be the province of historians, decades after the fact.
I mean… imagine if there’d been Twitter when J. Edgar Hoover was ‘very privately’ swanning around in full drag…
debbie
@Matt McIrvin:
Ah, Q-curious then.
NotMax
@Betty Cracker
Their eruptions of poutrage put me, for some reason, in mind of The Kinks.
Matt McIrvin
@debbie: I haven’t seen them being Q-curious but it may only be a matter of time
They’ve spent the past 4 years opposing everyone who opposes Trump and getting outraged when people suggest they support Trump.
Punchy
@Matt McIrvin: Nah….for that to happen, every GOPer would have to vote aganst. I dont see Romney AND the Alaska Sen (sp?) both voting with their bloc on this. Maybe Im wrong, but Romney seems genuinely pissed at his party’s absurdly right-wing flavor.
Zzyzx
The great thing about Trump fighting these really stupid lawsuits is that it’s massively delaying the post election infighting as we still have an obvious common enemy.
David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch
Twitter isn’t real life. Which is why Bernie lost by 9,396,839 votes.
Dorothy A. Winsor
@Matt McIrvin: We need a visual that charts the nominee’s race and gender against their confirmation vote. Or would that be shrill?
Baud
@Zzyzx:
We always have an obvious common enemy.
Zzyzx
@Baud: key word, “obvious.”
Baud
@Matt McIrvin:
Ah, the proverbial shy Trump supporters have been found.
NotMax
@Anne Laurie
Hoover’s predilections may not have been widely known publicly but they were not exactly private either.
;)
gene108
@Anne Laurie:
I am on Twitter. And it’s interesting to get brief blips about the news from reporters before it appears on CNN or other news outlets, certain videos that become very popular, like Sarah Cooper’s Trump impersonations, and seeing what people are thinking, especially glimpses into conservative commentary.
We may share the same meat space as conservatives, but we do not share the same reality.
But when something “blows up” on Twitter it is usually meaningless in the broader world, even though some folks on Twitter think it’s a big, big deal, which I find amusing.
Baud
@Betty Cracker:
I like alt-left.
Princess
@Matt McIrvin: I’ve started calling them the white left. That’s what they are with a few people like Brie Brie sprinkled in to make them feel good about themselves. So far as I can see, they’ve never accomplished anything at all.
Betty Cracker
A cold front just blew through my area, and we’re supposed to get a hard freeze tomorrow in the wee hours! Badger will be modeling his new sweater, and I’ll try to get a pic.
NotMax
@Baud
The judges will accept Galt-left.
;)
WereBear
What gets lost in the FUD about Twitter is how it is an astounding source of effective activism.
I met the most fascinating people who use it for Good. And when the usual apoligiad make excuses for Republicans, scorn descends and FINALLY there is a way of pushing back which has an effect.
I’ll take it.
Baud
@WereBear:
True. But the bad is really bad.
WereBear
@Baud: not as bad as Facebook… That hive of scum and villainy.
NotMax
@Baud
This, this this. The bad subsumes the good.
Among the first laws the Nazis put in place was one stiffly criminalizing cruelty to animals.
Geminid
@Anne Laurie: the “Tea Party” movement never died. Rebranded as “Constitutional Conservatives, (their term, not mine), they have been assiduously working to take over the republican party ever since 2010, more or less successfully at least in Virginia. They were just waiting for someone like trump to come along. I would say that trump “turbocharged” this movement, but a more apt term would be “nitro-fueled,” which makes engines run fast, but also tends to blow them up.
Baud
@NotMax:
Shit. Not even Trump done anything as good.
Elizabelle
@Anne Laurie:
And now Liz Breunig is at the FTF NY Times. Has her own column. Yup.
Even the headlines they give her columns make me cringe. I have read one, and now avoid them. No. Just no.
debbie
@Geminid:
And the establishment Republicans welcomed them because it helped them gain power. Who’s sorry now?
Baud
@Elizabelle:
Of course!
Elizabelle
@Baud: Next stop, The Guardian, if she somehow goes astray at the Grey Lady.
NotMax
@Baud
Didn’t you read the memo? Failing upwards is the new black.
//
LurkerNoLonger
@Matt McIrvin: Do your predictions extend to lottery numbers? Because I’d like to waste a few dollars and not get a single number.
Gin & Tonic
I am apparently unaware of all Internet traditions – why are we supposed to be mad at Neera Tanden
ETA: I suppose I should read from the top down, and not from the bottom up.
Chris Johnson
I got the hell out of Rose Twitter when I started to spot how many of them were Nazis and/or russians.
Quite literally. What I saw was Putin at work, real actively. And the thing that tipped me off was wild hysterical Rose Twitter rage at Elizabeth Warren. As near as I could tell, that was batshit craziness because Warren was basically Sanders but effective and capable. (I’m OK-ish with people being hostile because she’s strikingly left-wing, but can’t tolerate people being hostile because ‘insert QAnon-style ravings here’)
I am left to wonder whether it’s the same deal with Neera Tanden. Is the opposition/outrage a bunch of trollery and fuckery, set up well in advance because Russia identified that she is actually capable and effective? While also having progressive enough notions that she’d be likely to do stuff that actually helped?
I guess ask me in ten years which it was? For now, my big take-away is ‘quite a bit of Rose Twitter is literally enemy action’ and as such I’m interested in who upsets them. And wary about soaking up any of their framing, because Nazis and trolls lie. And that’s how that process is done.
Immanentize
Athenae is a fun twitterer who writes at First Draft:
mrmoshpotato
Cry harder, Dump humpers.
NotMax
@Immanentize
Cooking up a storm for Espresso Boy?
(per Maxwell Smart): And loving it.
Baud
@NotMax:
Hating Dems is lucrative.
OzarkHillbilly
NotMax
@Baud
So is running a meth lab. The difference being that requires a modicum of skills.
//
jonas
So Conryn’s COS tweets that her nomination is DOA because she’s made partisan tweets. In her job as a partisan activist. These are the same people who were totally cool with Trump putting shameless, frothing, attack-dog hacks like Ric Grennell in top posts. They can go fuck themselves so hard.
Immanentize
@NotMax: I have been master chef. And the Immp is happy as a clam to be reunited with his Silvia.
OzarkHillbilly
Silver Lining Headline of the day: Government Saves £600 Million on State Pension Payments Due as Covid Deaths Surge
ETA: Just imagine how much Social Security is saving.
mrmoshpotato
@Zzyzx:
Yes. And it’s also great to see Dump getting repeatedly punched in the face by judges he nominated! SAD!
NotMax
@Immanentize
That has just made my day a better one.
mrmoshpotato
@OzarkHillbilly: I came across that yesterday with someone opining that Thatcher’s corpse wrote the headline.
Elizabelle
@NotMax: Love that song.
I see from the Youtube comments that it has had quite the afterlife, used in television episodes. Including Homicide: Life on the Street. Criminal Minds.
It’s a great song.
jonas
@OzarkHillbilly: On the other hand, millions of unemployed aren’t paying payroll taxes, either, so I suppose it’s probably a wash, at least in the short term.
Geminid
@Geminid: What has made the tea party types more powerful in Virginia than in a state like Massachusetts is their alliance with political evangelicals. Together these two groups can wrest power from the traditional chamber of commerce types who in years past called the shots in the Virginia Republican party. But voters in general have not gotten on board, but instead have made the Democratic party dominant in state wide politics.
Cheryl Rofer
@Geminid: Tchaikovsky did it in “The Nutcracker.”
mrmoshpotato
@Dorothy A. Winsor: Gotta criticize them for being “overprepared” and over-qualified – like it’s a bad thing.
(Oh Chuckles. Get operated on by a first day med student.)
Cheryl Rofer
Thanks, everyone. I’ve wondered where the Neera Tanden hate came from on Twitter. But, like a lot of things there, I haven’t bothered to trace it back.
mrmoshpotato
@Betty Cracker:
??
mrmoshpotato
@Baud:
Quotable!
OzarkHillbilly
@mrmoshpotato: That’s the same one I came across. Funny as fuck.
danielx
@Betty Cracker:
Now is the winter of our (his) discontent.
OzarkHillbilly
I actually had an experience akin to that. He was a lot more scared than I was.
Geminid
@debbie: The Virginia political journal Bearing Drift features articles by anti-trump, anti-tea party self-described conservatives. They write a lot about the internal fight in the Virginia party, which right now they are losing. A good example of Bearing Drift’s national take is an article by retired Army Colonel M.D. Russ, titled “Trump is the Republican Party President.” Russ examines the question, did trump hijack the Republican Party? Russ tracks republican radicalism from Gingrich’s Contract for America to the present, and concludes, no, trump did not hijack the party, “he just answered the casting call.”
SiubhanDuinne
@Immanentize:
Who is Silvia?
[What is she/That all our Immps commend her?]
rikyrah
Good Morning,Everyone ???
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@OzarkHillbilly:
I would have hired her yesterday for that.
Brachiator
I am so out of the political loop. I see Biden’s nominees and think “cool. A nice looking bunch of talented folk.”
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@Baud:
Exactly. They can’t do it from the right because that’s a crowded market place. Doing it from the self-professed “left” is a niche and since nature abhors a vacuum, those assholes were more than willing to fill it.
A lot of it goes back to the Horseshoe Theory of Politics which I know some here poo-poo but I continually find it as prescient as the Crazification Factor.
Baud
@rikyrah: Good morning.
mrmoshpotato
@OzarkHillbilly: He was more scared? What was the operation of you don’t mind my asking?
Xenos
@Soprano2: Centrist drones are much worse than fascist drones.
I mean, you expect fascists to go a-droning, but when the centrists do that when you are in some sort of coalition with them, then that impugns the rose-twitter purity.
Even that is giving them more credit than they deserve.
Salty Sam
I am not on any social media platforms, and so my experience of all the drama is vicarious. When things heat up and I hear the weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth, I get a little chuckle and think “Time to disconnect dude!” (or dudette, as the case may be)
It’s pretty nice to go through life without a single care for what Rose Twitter has to say about anything…
Punchy
Anyone know how many new lawsuits were filed in PA and WI over the weekend? 3? 33? Just curious because it seems for every one that is killed, another 2 or 3 manifest from the ashes. Rinse, repeat.
mrmoshpotato
@Punchy: Not sure, but last I saw Dump and Ghouliani are 1-39.
Cry harder, Dump humpers.
Gin & Tonic
@SiubhanDuinne: IIRC, Silvia is an espresso machine.
Elizabelle
@Gin & Tonic: Oh. I thought Silvia might be the cat.
Immanentize
@SiubhanDuinne:
The Rancilio Silvia is an Espresso machine.
The Immp (my son) salvaged one cheap from Craigslist, refurbished and upgraded it into a magnificent coffee-making modified monster.
All for about 1/3 the price of a new one, let alone 1/4 of the value of his modified version. I suggested this would be a good way to pay for college….
Immanentize
@Xenos: Just wondering how many of the anti-drone brigade snigger at Israeli assassinations. I’d like to see the Venn Diagram on that one.
lowtechcyclist
@Punchy:
It’s hard to keep track, isn’t it? AFAIK, they’ve still only won once, and even that win was overturned on appeal.
What I want to know is, is anyone keeping a scorecard of how many GOP Senators and Representatives (including those in the -elect category) have acknowledged that Trump lost and Biden’s the President-Elect?
Brachiator
@Punchy:
Trump is starring in his own political Groundhog Day. I can’t wait to see how he reacts to the Electoral College meeting in December.
Immanentize
@Elizabelle: Toasty is the cat. The two are most certainly happily back together as well. I really only see Toast now when he demands his dinner. Otherwise he just follows the Immp about or naps in the crow’s nest (my son’s top floor bedroom).
VidaLoca
Hey Annie — and the rest of you too — reading this, I’m really wondering who your list of “Cosplay Socialists” includes and how sophisticated your analysis of the left is. Are the following “Cosplay Socialists”:
These are all leftist organizations, several of them have a formal position on “socialism” (they’re for it) , others don’t but they all threw down hard in support of Biden. In other words, we were and we still are your fucking allies in this fight, because all the leftists that threw down recognized that defeating Trump was a necessity if we are going to make any progress in moving any kind of a social justice agenda. And though Trump may be done for, Trumpism is far from it.
The last election is over, now there’s another one coming. The New Confederacy isn’t going away, it will be back. Nothing got settled on Nov. 3rd, we’re just in another truce until the war breaks out again. You all seem to think that the DSA and Our Revolution define the left — they don’t, and Twitter doesn’t either But they, and we can move votes in communities that your Democrats can not. So: do you want our support going forward or not?
Baud
@VidaLoca:
We don’t want your support if it means remaining silent when people who you say are not you attack us.
Immanentize
@VidaLoca: Who is “Annie?”
Cos-Play Socialists, in my mind, are folks who pretend to great leftist ideals, but then positively fight against actual left progress. I’ll name one -+ David Sirota +- whose only seeming interest economically is himself.
YMMV
Gin & Tonic
@VidaLoca:
Really?
Immanentize
@Gin & Tonic: You don’t keep a few of your own just in case?
Luciamia
@Punchy: Hmmm, like a phoenix or a zombie? With PA they’ll be out of luck after today.
Immanentize
Hey All, here is a great opinion piece, IMO, from the NYTimes about how Trump’s “I was robbed” narrative is a similar set up to the “stab your back” narrative in 1918 Germany.
EveryDayIHaveTheBlues
Frankensteinbeck
@VidaLoca:
The whole point of the term ‘cosplay socialists’ is that they are the people who loudly scream that they define the left, but are not working to advance left causes, unlike the groups you describe. They just hate Democrats. The ‘cosplay’ part is specifically there to denote not being the kind of people you defend.
One notable trait of ‘cosplay socialists’ and the reason they get the term ‘alt-left’ is that they are racist and misogynist and attack equality measures by claiming only economic equality matters. So, any group pushing civil rights for non-white-men is almost certainly not who we mean.
You are right that there is a problem with coopted terms hiding real left groups. Still, note the popularity of Warren here in the primary, precisely because she is seen as pushing actual left policies rather than slogans.
mrmoshpotato
@Brachiator: Alexa, order all the popcorn!
chopper
@VidaLoca:
those organizations actually do shit. getting shit done isn’t cosplay. this making any sense to you?
OzarkHillbilly
@mrmoshpotato: Emergency surgery for a collapsed lung, basically inserting a tube into the chest cavity so that the accumulated fluid could drain allowing the lung to reinflate.
And yeah, he was scared half to death. First time cutting on a living, breathing human being. The real Doc had a very thick accent and the kid was having a hard time understanding the directives. My being fully awake probably didn’t help. At one point I was sorely tempted to sit up and yell at the kid, “Look dumbshit, he said ON TOP OF THE FUCKING RIB!!!!”
I didn’t of course. Probably would have if I’d heard an “Ooopps.”
germy
Biden’s appointments are looking better and better.
Omnes Omnibus
@VidaLoca: As you noted, those organizations supported Biden. I don’t think that most of the people here have a problem with the actual left. There is a reason Cosplay Socialist and alt-left are used. People are trying to be careful to distinguish between the genuine article and the people who simply stake out a position on the left as a base from which to attack Democrats.
Betty Cracker
@VidaLoca: I’m confident Anne Laurie and the commenters here (with the exception of a few people who are cranks on this topic, IMO) are referring to people like the Bruenigs, Walker Bragman and other disgruntled Sanders supporters who have decided Democrats are the real enemy.
But I take your point about the language being imprecise around here sometimes and potentially alienating to allies. That’s why I am occasionally a tiresome scold on that point around here. Indiscriminate bashing isn’t helpful on either side of the supposedly same side, IMO.
Fair Economist
@NotMax:
More like the old (and still current) white.
OzarkHillbilly
@Elizabelle: I was thinking it was a brand of compass, but that’s Silva.
mrmoshpotato
@Frankensteinbeck:
“THE ONLY PROBLEM WE HAVE IN THIS COUNTRY IS INCOME INEQUALITY!” -Wilmer
germy
Anyone else think Rahm will be head of Transportation?
The thread below addresses his experience and lack of experience:
I’d rather see someone smarter and more competent than Rahm.
Baud
@Omnes Omnibus:
@Betty Cracker:
I don’t disagree. But even decent, fair minded people (of any ideology) can engage in offensive tactics every once in a while, so it’s not always black and white.
I do agree that ambiguous terminology makes the discussion more difficult.
ETA: and of course, sometimes fair minded people disagree on policy, even within the lefty space.
mrmoshpotato
@OzarkHillbilly: Well, glad you were more relax than him.
germy
@mrmoshpotato:
It’s not the only problem in this country, but it’s certainly a big problem.
Dorothy A. Winsor
Good news.
SiubhanDuinne
@Elizabelle:
That’s what I thought, too. But mostly I just wanted that gorgeous lied as a morning ear worm.
OzarkHillbilly
@mrmoshpotato: Ha! That only lasted until the first cut. Local anesthetic only goes skin deep.
Immanentize
@germy: Rahm will not be in the Biden Administration. It signals all the wrong things. Looking back not forward, assholes not technocrats, etc. Biden rides Amtrack. Rahm rides police.
Immanentize
@Dorothy A. Winsor: That is good news indeed.
McSally no more
Baud
@Dorothy A. Winsor: ?
SiubhanDuinne
@Immanentize:
I remembered the story, but not the name!
Punchy
@Brachiator: Really dumb, far-out Q: what if the Electoral College is prevented from meeting? What if the FBI or DOJ declares it a terrrorist gathering and thus unable to vote?
Crazy!, you say. Yeah, but completely crazy is what DT will be by then. So what’s the default setting if the EC cannot meet? Pelosi for pres?
mrmoshpotato
@germy: You apparently forgot or don’t know of my disdain for Saint Bernie. I wasn’t being serious. :)
Baud
@Punchy:
The EC is an unstoppable force, not subject to the laws of mere mortals. It will meet to elect Biden president.
Elizabelle
@VidaLoca: If you read this blog more frequently, you would see the admiration of Stacey Abrams and lots of people and groups that are making real, measurable progress. You would have seen all the fundraising on behalf of candidates who can move the game forward.
But easier to just scold. You be you.
mrmoshpotato
@Punchy: Ummmm…..what fever swamp did you pull that out of?
Elizabelle
@Immanentize: Toasty. Great name for the cat. Who is likely delirious to have his boy back from Texas.
PS: Thanks for catching that op ed about 1918 Germany and the “Stab in the Back” that brought Hitler to power.
Haven’t read it yet, but Chris Dodd (!) has an op ed up too, on lessons from Germany’s tragic history.
NY Times: Chris Dodd: ‘The Lessons of Nuremberg Must Be Continually Relearned’
Former Senator Christopher J. Dodd writes of his father’s role at the World War II military tribunal, and the lessons that can be drawn today.
piratedan
@VidaLoca: and if you look around, we call out specific players, not organizations because we’re well are that the folks we’re up against, who have an “established media soapbox” are the same one trotted out over and over again as bad faith actors.
don’t get sucked in thinking that the likes of Ken Vogel or David Sirota “speak” for these orgs, we know that they don’t.
Palindrome
@NotMax: The judges will accept Galt-left
NotMax for the win!
Ruckus
@Matt McIrvin:
So you are saying that they are drama queens….
Above all else.
PST
@Immanentize:
I actually got on line this morning to learn how to pronounce “dolchstoßlegende” semi-correctly and refresh my recollection of the details. The Os are long, the G is hard, and the final E is sounded. I think this will be coming up in conversation a lot the next few years.
Chief Oshkosh
@OzarkHillbilly: Geeze, some of the wacko comments there HAVE to be Putin’s minions.
germy
hitless
@Matt McIrvin: Biden can’t appoint actings out of nowhere – that’s not how the Vacancy Act works. The simple fact is that Biden has to nominate people that McConnell will approve of or he has no government. Every action taken by an agency without an approved head will get wiped out in court. McConnell picks the cabinet, unless the Dems win both seats in Georgia.
Chyron HR
@VidaLoca:
No, the DSA and Our Revolution think the DSA and Our Revolution define the left. All the groups you listed are “neoliberal shitlib corporatists” (i.e., mainstream democrats).
Frankensteinbeck
@Punchy:
Barr can declare they’re lizard people. No one will care. Trump has been unable to get his enemies arrested and no matter what his toadies supposedly in charge order, the FBI and every relevant enforcement group has gone ahead with their jobs and refused major political acts. The system that saw Trump in is pushing him out, despite all his attempts to stop it. He isn’t even making a dent in it, as disgusting as it is that he’s trying.
Immanentize
I’m following the morning’s arguments in SCOTUS re: the census and undocumented immigrants (via Leah Litman on Twitter). Very interesting. Acting SG seems to be getting his ass handed to him.
germy
different-church-lady
@VidaLoca: Do they spend more time on Twitter than organizing? Because that’s one of the hallmarks.
Omnes Omnibus
@Elizabelle: This isn’t aimed at just you; your comment just worked as an easy anchor point for a reply.
We just had a longtime commenter who is a community activist in a big city tell us that she is seeing a reflexive anti-left attitude on the blog. While I think that she is missing some nuance, I also spend a lot of time here. Are occasional readers/commenters going to get an incorrect impression from people’s rhetoric? Are some here actually hostile to the left in general and not just the dickheads? Anyway VidaLoca has been doing real work in the community, and her comment deserves some thought and not just a casual dismissal. YMMV.
mrmoshpotato
@Frankensteinbeck:
But it’s tremendous bigly to watch him get repeatedly bashed in his fat, orange, fascist face by Lady Justice.
Immanentize
I’m starting to think VidaLoca was just a hit and run….
germy
lowtechcyclist
Maybe it’s because I’m not familiar with the players, but the calling-out in this thread seemed pretty vague to me, so I completely understand and relate to @VidaLoca’s confusion.
If it’s just a few bad actors like Greenwald or Sirota, or this Bruening guy I’ve only vaguely heard of before, then why all the gnashing of teeth about them in this thread? Seriously, what microscopic slice of the center-left are represented by these clowns?
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
OT – Thanksgiving Day, the dog was manifesting symptoms of a gut bug (we’d had him groomed the day before), and was yakking water pukes all over the house. We brought him to the vet for some diagnostics and care. A set of tests, X-rays, a couple of shots, take-home meds and prescription food later (along with the liberation of $454 from my wallet), he came home to rest up.
I don’t know what Hill’s puts in that prescription food, but it was like crack for the dog and all three cats – they nearly shoved all 70+ pounds of him out of the way to get at it. Never saw anything like it!
mrmoshpotato
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: Narrator: It was crack.
different-church-lady
@Omnes Omnibus: I think maybe we still got some residual bitterness about 2016 to get out of our systems.
Baud
@Omnes Omnibus:
Her work deserves respect, but her comment was offensive. She could have asked rather than accuse.
@lowtechcyclist:
They are part of a group of people who have had influence on the left in the past. Hopefully, our interest in them will continue to fade.
Baud
@different-church-lady:
It’s not just bitterness. Once bitten, twice shy. It’s silly to ignore history and pretend everyone is acting in good faith.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@mrmoshpotato:
The perky-eared attentiveness of the otherwise lethargic, self-pitying dog the moment the can opener pierced the can and the yowls of running, milling, tumbling cats were a big clue that I had something special.
Omnes Omnibus
@Baud: Think about it this way… If you had been working really hard to do good things and you read something that made it seem like people were lumping you in with David Sirota, wouldn’t you be just a little upset?
O. Felix Culpa
@Omnes Omnibus: Two things: 1. Many of the organizations named are organizations fundraised for on this blog. A semi-regular reader could know that. 2. The modifier “cosplay” in front of socialist also provides a clue that socialist on its own is not necessarily a negative.
Ok, a third thing: the commentariat typically holds a range of views from center-left to lefter left. Some “insider” lingo gets developed over time. So the casual or new reader might not immediately understand certain shorthand. I’m not sure how you get around site-specific internet traditions nor do I think it’s necessary, when a respectful clarifying question will do.
Kathleen
@comrade scotts agenda of rage: Media love nothing more than “liberals” who hate Democrats. It’s their catnip. Hence Michael Moore’s many appearances on Chris Hayes’ show.
Delk
The 10% of users who are most active in terms of tweeting are responsible for 80% of all tweets created by U.S. users. Pew Research
rikyrah
VidaLoca
@Frankensteinbeck:
@Omnes Omnibus:
@Betty Cracker:
@Baud:
OK, fair enough. I appreciate the responses. But “the left” is a growing space of organizations that took different positions on the election. The reason I listed the ones that I did — which are only ones that I know of, it’s not comprehensive, and it’s only the left organizations, not the unions and others that also threw down for Biden but don’t claim to be leftists though they are strongly influenced by leftists within them — was to make the point that the predominant tendency among the organized left groups was to support Biden. And furthermore, these are all groups that are responsible to communities and constituencies that would be endangered — mortally — by another four years of Trump. Skin in the game in other words. Your allies, in other words, although I realize that some of you in the group here recognize that.
It’s true that there are other left organizations, DSA and Our Revolution being two that come to mind, that didn’t support Biden. Calll them the “left abstentionists” if you like. They now look somewhat foolish, calling on people to “protect the votes” after the election that they were not willing to try to win during the election, but that’s their problem not yours. And, if anybody can persuade them to change that position in the next election — which we should all be thinking about starting right now, unfortunate though that may be — the left is in a better position to do it than you all are. But meanwhile, they’re in the minority on this issue.
The other people writing on blogs or on Twitter are of even less consequence.
You all get hot under the collar when the leftists call you “neoliberals.” This “cosplay socialists” epithet is similarly unhelpful.
mrmoshpotato
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: Hahaha, I would think so!
Suzanne
@Omnes Omnibus:
I spend a lot of time here, too, so I don’t think so…. but there have definitely been many, many comments in the vein of “Bernie is as bad as Trump!” or “Berniestans are the WORST!”. I definitely understand not being a huge fan of Sanders, but I can also understand where the idea that the left flank isn’t welcome here. And that sucks. I have made really anodyne statements in the comments here to the effect of “Leftists and Bernie supporters are an important part of the coalition and let’s treat them like it”, and from the reactions, you may have thought I punched a kitten.
For the record, I voted for Bernie in 2016 in the primary. Not because I give a shit about him, but because I am further to the left politically than Clinton. I was thrilled to vote for Warren this year.
O. Felix Culpa
@Omnes Omnibus: Sorry, no. I do a ton of local organizing and I can tell the difference.
ETA: And why would there be an assumption that one’s local organizing work is lumped in with David Sirota? I don’t see anything in the text that suggests that.
Omnes Omnibus
@O. Felix Culpa: I broadly agree with you, and my comment to VL herself said that. That being said, I am not comfortable with simply dismissing her comment without at least a moment of self-reflection.
germy
rikyrah
@VidaLoca:
All the groups you listed are valid, on the ground groups. I have my own issues with BLM that I won’t get into.
The cosplay socialists are a small, but loud group on social media. They mean the Democratic Party harm. They don’t want to do any actual work.
Baud
@VidaLoca: I appreciate your response. I hope our language can be more precise going forward. But I don’t think we’ll stop punching back at people who punch us anytime soon. I do hope that the people we all recognize are problems will become less visible as time moves forward.
VidaLoca
@Elizabelle: I read through a thread on this blog every couple of days or so because I’m curious about what your community thinks about political issues in general and electoral politics in particular. I comment rarely because it’s not my community and I don’t think my opinions carry much weight here, but as Omnes suggested in one of his comments, I was a little steamed about this one.
Baud
@Omnes Omnibus: I would only be upset if I explained to people that I, in fact, oppose David Sirota and people ignored that.
Omnes Omnibus
@Baud: Not everyone has your level of zen.
Suzanne
@germy: Maybe we can fire Jared and Ivanka into the surface of the sun.
I hear their art collection has been devalued by their ownership. Why does something so petty make me laugh?
Eunicecycle
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: our cat comes running as soon as we open the drawer with the can opener. If it’s not for her, I have to let her sniff the can so she will leave me alone!
Mike in NC
Is the media going to obsess over what Fat Bastard thinks about Biden-Harris giving jobs to so many of these nasty women? Fuck ’em!
Trump would just shrug and say ‘they aren’t my type’ to sexually harass.
VidaLoca
@Suzanne: Maybe it would help if we could all get past defining the left as Bernie Sanders then? I get it that you’re all enraged about Sanders and frankly I’m not a fan of him myself, though probably for different reasons than most of you are. But no matter your opinion of the man, he’s water over the dam.
germy
@Suzanne:
I didn’t know that about their art collection.
Who knew black velvet paintings of clowns would depreciate so dramatically?
O. Felix Culpa
@Omnes Omnibus: I’m glad she asked, but I didn’t appreciate the accusatory (aggrieved) framing. As I said, a number of the organizations she listed have been actively supported on this very blog and numerous people on the blog are active community organizers, so I would have appreciated a query framed more as a clarifying question than as an accusation. Nuance is desirable, but not always achievable in relatively brief comments, hence the reliance on common shorthand. As far as being circumspect is concerned, commenters who go off the deep end about anything — doom-and-glooming, excessive anti-lefty, etc. — tend to get called out by other commenters. I like the generally effective self-regulation of the community.
Edmund Dantes
Yes. This blog commentariat can get very defensive every time they punch out “precisely” (narrator: it’s not as precise as they believe, but they will be the judge of that thank you very much).
stinger
After 2016, I wanted a. woman. as. president. The Democratic primary season began with a raft of female candidates, many of whom I felt I could support enthusiastically. I was angry with Biden for throwing his hat into the ring, and was only lukewarm about the other male candidates. At this point, however, it feels like we may have a man as president but practically the entire rest of the administration will be women! (I know he’s already named a few men.) Women may attain not only parity but a majority of leadership positions. I believe neither Harris nor Warren nor Klobuchar nor any of the other female candidates, upon winning the nomination and the election, could have named so many women to senior posts.
This on top of the fact that the Vice President-Elect gets nearly equal billing and mention in every announcement and speech. I’m feeling a lot better about having yet another man as president, at least for four more years. Thank you, Joe Biden. And thank you, Jill Biden, as I’ll bet you have influenced him in his feminism over the years.
MomSense
@Suzanne:
I don’t think Sanders is actually to the left. He is not to the left on immigration, for example. His voting record puts him at 9th most liberal in the Senate with Warren at 5th and Harris at 2nd.
Omnes Omnibus
@O. Felix Culpa: And I all I was suggesting is that we might want to look past the tone of the comment to see if there was any substance to it. Everyone can do that for themselves or not. I am not proposing a Cultural Revolution style self-critique session.
Elizabelle
@VidaLoca: Hey there. Good to see you checking back in.
A reader could also decide we are anti-free press, since we call it Fuck the Fucking New York Times, on many occasions, and whinge a lot about sloppy, bizarrely framed journalism. (Although that paper is capable of some extraordinarily good journalism, too.)
What you’re actually seeing, I would guess, is having to deal with the Saint Bernard Sanders cult. We like pragmatists who are realistic, as well as idealistic, and can move the ball forward. (Stacey Abrams, Elizabeth Warren, a lot of excellent people — and organizations — out there.) ETA: Joe Biden and Kamala Harris!
It’s aggravating to see The Guardian and the FTF (!) NY Times lead with coverage that ridicules Democrats with barbs from the left.
They misrepresent us, and I think you’re seeing whingeing about how David Sirota and other specious thinkers always seem to get a platform.
Omnes Omnibus
@MomSense: Ninth most liberal seems leftish to me.
Elizabelle
@MomSense: And do not get us started on gun violence with Bernie, hmm?
O. Felix Culpa
@Omnes Omnibus: Fair enough. I think it’s a reasonable suggestion that we reflect on our use of language. And I also maintain that the precipitating comment might just be guilty of the very lack of precision and nuance that it decries.
Frankensteinbeck
@VidaLoca:
It is very hard to let go of the anger that Bernie’s “The Democrats cheated you” rhetoric pushed Trump over*, and he has been the rallying cry of the “Democrats are the real enemy” branch of the left. That latter may make it impossible to keep him out of the discussion, even though he acted appropriately this time and in every real sense is becoming less relevant by the second.
*Changing any of a dozen things, like that vile misogynist Comey’s last-minute ratfuck, would have changed that hair-thin election. But Sanders’ determined attempt to poison young idealists against the Democratic Party was definitely one of them.
Suzanne
@VidaLoca: Yeah, seriously, forget Sanders. He is a non-factor. His diehards are irritating but they are a sliver of a sliver. There’s a much bigger cohort of people who are progressive and voted for others, including Biden, because they want to see positive results and are capable of being pragmatic.
Gin & Tonic
@Omnes Omnibus: Nobody expects the Cultural Revolution!
Immanentize
@O. Felix Culpa: Medice, cura te ipsum?
ETA referring to VL not you.
Immanentize
@Omnes Omnibus:
I dunno. That might be fun?
You go first.?
Barbara
@lowtechcyclist: I don’t know how many people feel represented, but their own view as being representative is greatly amplified by the forums that publish their voices. I find their writing to be frequently laced with ad hominem attacks that veer into straight up dishonesty and misogyny on occasion. In shorter words, they are just as likely to resort to name calling as reasoned argument especially when they are addressing women.
schrodingers_cat
@MomSense: He is a left wing populist. His record prior to running for president has been conservative with respect to immigration and gun rights for example. And he is for defense contracts as long as they go to Vt.
And blog favorite Warren is a weathervane.
She was a Republican until her late forties then supposedly became a Democrat because Republicans weren’t actually fiscally conservative. Now she doesn’t care about deficits. This is her signature issue and she has gone from one extreme to another.
She gave credence to BS claim about DNC rigging the election for HRC in 2016. Helped to sink the TPP.
She may appeal to college educated white people (most of BJ audience) but is tone deaf where non-white people are concerned. Despite one of the last people to drop out she never even finished second in any of the primaries.
BJ frontpage or the commentariat is not representative of Democratic electorate which is far more diverse. If BJ was representative of the Democratic electorate Warren would have easily won the primaries.
gwangung
Railing against the “Neo-liberalist Democratic Party” has always been counter productive in my thinking. The Democratic Party represents an established mechanism that works very well to elect people, get out the vote, disseminate information and so forth. If you want to do away with this “corrupt mechanism”, then you must establish an organization to do the same thing. What I’ve seen are either no effort to do so or efforts that are vastly more inefficient AND ineffective.
Moreover that “corrupt machinery” actually represents individuals. Who believe in those “Neo-liberal” politics quite whole heartedly. It is one thing to defeat them; to destroy them means destroying a sizable segment of the population, a segment that would be needed to fight Republicans.
In a lot of ways, Sanders has crystallized a portion of the population that rallies around an ideology that’s still stuck in the 60s/70s…I think progressive ideology has progressed substantially beyond that in matters of race and gender. Income inequality is very, very important, but it’s not the only plank progressives want to establish.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@WereBear: Y’all must be using a different Facebook than I am. The most contentious thing I see there are arguments on compositing.
Elizabelle
I am thinking it is bleakly funny that, on a thread entitled “Cry More, Snowflakes”, we end up defending ourselves.
laura
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: it’s the McDonalds of pet food.
raven
@schrodingers_cat:
She may appeal to OLD college educated white people (most of BJ audience)
mrmoshpotato
@Suzanne:
Hear! Hear!
Because they’re walking trash heaps who deserve it.
Barbara
@Suzanne: What I dislike about Sanders diehards doesn’t have much to do with Sanders but with the equation of politics with a personality cult. They have continued in this vein regarding Biden’s “failure” to appoint big names to cabinet positions.
neldob
The problem with the alt-left moniker is that it equivalences the alt-right, and the alt-left is not as extreme as the alt-right. Maybe jerk-left works. Dork-left. Poseur-left. Cracked-left. If I am always the last one to comment it’s because reading the comments is fun.
schrodingers_cat
@raven: Not so old college educated white women I know IRL also love her.
schrodingers_cat
@gwangung: This
O. Felix Culpa
@Immanentize: Heh. Exactly. Something good for us all to keep in mind.
schrodingers_cat
@raven: Also, many of Sanders online followers are young and impressionable and quote Marx and think Russia is the bomb. And for them America is the biggest evil that has ever eviled. I see this a lot among younger Iefties from India.
VidaLoca
@Elizabelle:
@Frankensteinbeck:
But doesn’t this call for some kind of a re-evaluation in light of the current political situation? What is the intersection between the “Saint Bernard Sanders” cult and the left? Or for that matter, between the “Democrats are the real enemy” crowd and the left? Frankly I had thought that you all were conflating what I called the abstentionists — DSA, Our Revolution — with the left as a whole but now I’m not so sure. DSA has numerous chapters, all kinds of opinions circulate within it, doubtless some members still think highly of Sanders but that’s far from a cult, many of their chapters are doing good work locally that, frankly, Democrats don’t touch. Meanwhile they claim to have 60,000 members, most of whom are young idealists that aren’t going to join the DP any time soon. How do you reach out to them? Our Revolution started out in 2017 as the people who were going to carry on Sanders’ legacy, it looks at the moment like they want to carry on his tactical stupidity too, but there’s no reason in the long run for them to continue outside of DSA.
Or is this about this David Sirota person who I see referenced in other comments? Who does David Sirota represent and why is he important?
gwangung
@?BillinGlendaleCA: Yes, that’s true. THat’s by Zuckerberg’s design. He’s created umpteen million bubbles that don’t always intersect.
Suzanne
@Barbara: I agree with that. In 2016, I was really torn. I believed (and I was correct) that HRC is much more competent at the acts of governance. But I believe more strongly in the democratic socialist platform represented by Sanders at the time. So I decided to vote for whomever was behind in my state at the time.
@schrodingers_cat: That’s the case for my cohort, too….. every young white woman who went to college in my social circle was for Warren, and all the young college-educated (and many of the non-college-educated) white dudes were for Bernie. I realize that my social circle is obviously not representative. Of my other-than-white friends and associates, the support got broader, but not necessarily in the way one might think. A lot of my Latino friends were into O’Rourke, for example, because of his experiences around the border.
Hoodie
@Omnes Omnibus: Not any general problem with the left, but some of their messaging seems questionable, if not ham handed.
mrmoshpotato
“THE BEST IS YET TO…..OH SHIT! 12:01PM! TIME TO FLEE THE COUNTRY!”
J R in WV
@NotMax:
You win the innertubes today, NotMax. Totally the best video I’ll see today.
gwangung
@VidaLoca: I think collective wisdom of any sort is going to trail the reality on the ground. And what you’re describing is an environment that’s dynamic and changing; there isn’t a major new consensus that’s developed, so folks on the trailing edge aren’t going to pick up on it.
VidaLoca
@Suzanne:
Exactly my point. In addition to that, the predominant view among the leftists that supported Biden is that the much bigger problem we face is from an energized and emboldened right wing. Where the abstentionists come down on this is less clear to me.
Just One More Canuck
@mrmoshpotato: He’s been reading Goku
Subsole
@WereBear:
That is an insult to scum, hives and villainy…
gvg
@VidaLoca: The problem as we see it is the media and there influence on voters. The media seems to pick up on these self proclaimed leftists who aren’t really leftist in actions and who like to attack democrats. then the media promotes the opinions of these enemies and discourages potential democratic supporters plus some of them are such crackpots that they discredit our views to other voters. We care a lot about how democratic leaders are portrayed because we have lost elections due to it, in our opinions of course.
The people who actually DO things, seem not to spend as much time seeking the media spotlight and the media doesn’t seem to find them interesting either. This is a problem.
Barbara
@VidaLoca: Do you read the Guardian? Sirota is a political operative who was demoted by the Sanders campaign for wanting to wage a scorched earth attack against Biden, but the Guardian dutifully allows him to take up that mantle as a columnist.
trollhattan
@Suzanne:
The conceit that only He can make meaningful change and only He can beat Trump (uhhhh) is somewhat understandable/tolerable from a 20YO idealist but anybody over 25 is just having a temper tantrum. I suppose they’ll eventually settle on “Bernie would have delivered the senate.” I can’t wait.
Elizabelle
@Barbara: The Guardian also had a few columnists who were trying to peddle the fictitious Tara Reade digital rape accusations against Biden.
They do some very good reporting on climate change, etc., but sheer silliness in some of their political coverage. Wag your finger at yourself, Guardian.
cain
Then the rules will be altered. A lot of stuff it seems were based on two sides agreeing – Trump and McConnell has changed that.
McConnell wants to play a game of chicken – just keep pushing the button that if McConnell doesn’t give those candidates a fair hearing (which isn’t asking much btw) that the U.S. in danger eveyr moment he delays.
O. Felix Culpa
@VidaLoca: I can only speak for my own local actions, but my outreach consists of building issue-based alliances wherever possible — on climate action, immigration, affordable housing, living wage, etc. Some organizations are more open to coalition-building than others, and I also recognize the need to develop trust, which involves being respectful and a trustworthy ally.
At the same time, there is a small but vocal group of self-appointed white male “lefties” (based in the local DSA) whose mission appears to be destruction of the Democratic Party and little else, who do no real work besides throwing verbal bombs at the people who do, and whose misogyny is virulently toxic. Not being a masochist and being invested in actually getting stuff done, I no longer engage in outreach with them. They have proven themselves to be untrustworthy.
Kent
This is simply not true. There is always a chain of command and chain of succession in every agency and there is ALWAYS some individual, most likely a career civil service executive deputy undersecretary of some sort who is in command and can legally issue any order or sign any regulation promulgated by the agency.
To the extent that agencies are going about the ordinary business of their actual missions I don’t see much problem here. The EPA will still be able to issue new regulations, for example. It will just be some senior scientist in the role of acting administrator signing the regulation, not a Biden appointee if his nominee gets held up.
Where Trump ran afoul of the courts was by (1) not appointing heads of agencies, and then (2) trying to insert his own non-confirmed and unqualified lackeys into the chain of command where they didn’t belong so they could SUBVERT the missions of the agencies in question because he didn’t trust the career people to do that (For good reason). Civil service jobs have published lists of qualifications. I’m just making this up to illustrate the point. But if say the 3rd in command at the EPA is a senior scientist position that has specific qualifications spelled out in terms of qualifications and experience, you can’t just take some 26 year old communications major from Liberty University and insert them into that job as Trump tried to do. There may be a lot of holes in the tops of many agencies, but Biden’s people can work through the normal civil service process to bring up good people for these top executive positions in these agencies that are right below the cabinet secretaries.
chopper
@O. Felix Culpa:
“cosplay socialists”, if you will.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
MomSense
@Omnes Omnibus:
Then why did Harris get saddled with Centrist, etc. by the Sanders supporters? My point is that the definitions of left have more to do with the hermeneutics of the person doing the labeling. In the case of Sanders supporters, it seems to be white and male centers issues.
O. Felix Culpa
@chopper: Ding ding ding.
O. Felix Culpa
@chopper: Ding ding ding.
VidaLoca
@Barbara:
OK, that’s who he is, why is he important? How many votes can he deliver in Georgia?
@gvg:
It seems to me you’re making the same point Barbara is. If this is a fight against the media (that unfortunately takes on the appearance of a fight against your allies) you’re never going to win that fight because the media are your enemies. Maybe not so much The Guardian, but others certainly.
You won’t outshout the voices with the bigger bullhorn. And you risk collateral damage among the people who hear the bullhorn you’ve got.
Baud
@gvg:
Agree. Media amplification is a bigger problem that Twitter soap operas by itself.
schrodingers_cat
@chopper: DSA seems to be short for Dumb Smug and Arrogant.
cain
I find it interesting that a number of folks in the ADOS group were not happy by what they felt was disrespect in regards to Symone Sanders who is going to serve as MVP Harris’s senior advisor and press secretary. Apparently she really helped out Joe Biden.
But then they also admitted she wasn’t the right person for the role – overall they were just angry that a white woman was put in charge of the White House comms. I have a sneaky suspicion that they were never in the tank for Joe in the first place. On the other hand, I would argue that MVP comms is also precarious since we already seen that 40% of this country are racist and misogynist and will seek to pull down the Biden administration through the VP. More than that, I think Harris is going to be a “co-equal” member here – just like Joe was in Obama’s administration.
Anyways, there are always people who are going to be unhappy and feel betrayed.
schrodingers_cat
Vida Gaslighter is here to tell to you to bend the knee if you want to get shit done. Also DSA is never wrong but always wronged by you and your Democrats
Gin & Tonic
The endorsement we were all waiting for.
Immanentize
@Barbara: And now he is getting a lot of NPR airtime.
O. Felix Culpa
@O. Felix Culpa: Oops, sorry about the duplicate dinging.
Baud
@cain:
Karine Jean-Pierre is number 2 and presumably would be next in line for the job.
Barbara
@VidaLoca: I have no wish to argue with you. I am trying to understand how someone who has never heard of David Sirota thinks a discussion about him will alienate fellow travelers. If the idea is to redirect our energy to more productive uses, fine, we do that a lot too. And yes, he might affect voters in Georgia, certainly, I think commenter Raven might have a more informed opinion on that than I do.
VidaLoca
@O. Felix Culpa: Oh yeah. I feel you. May I ask where you live?
I’m not advocating forming coalitions with people who have proven themselves to be untrustworthy. But I assume if you’re having success in building coalitions, you’re not going about it by labeling everyone you disagree with as an enemy.
Baud
@VidaLoca:
Commenter Raven noted that turnout was down in the hipster Athens, GA community even as Biden won the state, and there was speculation that the difference was disgruntled Bernie people. Are they reading Sirota specifically? Who knows? But all of it adds up.
debbie
@Baud:
Great response!
Baud
@Gin & Tonic:
The nail in Trump’s coffin.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Barbara: I’m actually trying to stay out of this, in part because I don’t have time to go back through the thread and read all the comments by and responses to this odd person who stomps in here every three months or so to tell us all how stupid and useless we are, but…
Sirota aside, I’m always confused by the people who think the comments made here by a few dozen political junkies, read by I would guess a few dozen more political junkies, have a great influence on politics, and thus feel the need to attempt to police these conversations.
VidaLoca
@Barbara:
It alienates the fellow travelers when it appears that the discussion you’re having about David Sirota is a discussion about them.
Citizen Alan
@VidaLoca: Can’t speak for anyone else, but I use the term “cosplay socialists” to refer to people who claim to be socialists but who are clearly less interested in advancing actual socialist values (to the extent that can be done in this virulently anti-socialist country) than they are in winning the ideological debate against Dems who oppose socialism and even Dems who focus on achievable socialism instead of pie-in-the-sky dreams. They genuinely seem to think that it would be better to lose by a catastrophic margin than to win as part of an alliance with people who only agree with them on 75% of the issues. Case in point: Everyone who voted for Jill Stein in 2016 or who just stayed home due to Hillary Derangement Syndrome had a stark choice between (1) a woman who would at worst maintain the status quo vis a vis socialism and who might have advanced it in significant ways and (2) a man who would set the socialist cause back a hundred years. There’s a very good chance that we will essentially lose the New Deal in the next few years due to the Federalist Society’s conquest of the judiciary. But hey, at least the Rose Twitter Brigade kept that bitch Hillary out of the White House, amirite?
O. Felix Culpa
Kindly explain where “labeling everyone you disagree with as an enemy” comes from. I haven’t seen that here and an effective organizer would listen more and label less.
Barbara
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I don’t know. I try to assume good faith and respond accordingly but I won’t get into sustained arguments.
Baud
@VidaLoca:
But why do they feel that way? I get labels are difficult, but they are difficult in both directions. I’ve never seen anyone on the left hesitate to criticize “Democrats” because it might offend “good Democrats.”
Baud
@O. Felix Culpa:
Sorry, that was an integral theme of the Baud! 2020! campaign.
In retrospect, it might have given off the wrong impression.
debbie
@Immanentize
Even before the “I was robbed” was the “eternal sense of grievance.” Since this seems to be intrinsic to human nature at this point, we will always and forever be dealing with Hitler-types.
trollhattan
@Gin & Tonic:
At long last I can catch up on my sleep.
John Oliver is responsible for 98% of my knowledge of Turkmenistan. How I roll, I guess.
O. Felix Culpa
@O. Felix Culpa: @VL #227. Experiencing some weird phone glitchiness.
Kent
It is a virtual meeting. They aren’t physically meeting in the same place at all, there are 50 separate meetings, not one big one. Each slate of electors in each state meets separately in their own state capitals or other state office buildings and they submit their votes electronically to Washington DC. I think some states are even doing it via zoom.
Read: https://www.ncsl.org/research/elections-and-campaigns/the-electoral-college.aspx
schrodingers_cat
Vida Loca, stops by every now and then to sprinkle knowledge among us heathens, this was in September about Jackals complaining about the media and NYT in particular.
Citizen Alan
@VidaLoca: When I take those “what political party do you most agree with” quizzes, they repeatedly tell me that I should be solidly in support of DSA. And tbh, I agree DSA on 90% or more of the issues. Sadly, the deal-breaker for me boils down to a single dispositive question:
Is the DSA a legitimate political organization that is capable of achieving ANY of its stated goals? Or is it a collection of cranks, obsessive single issue voters, malcontents, and bad actors that is financed primarily under the table by right wing billionaires for the express purpose of peeling away Democratic votes while making rational proponents of Socialism look ridiculous by their affiliation.
VidaLoca
@O. Felix Culpa:
OK, fair point. I get that there are people here who make a distinction between “cosplay socialists” — which includes organizations who have demonstrated themselves to be untrustworthy, as well as some journalists — and the non-Democratic Party left. Bad choice of words on my part.
Gin & Tonic
@Baud: As it should be.
Barbara
@VidaLoca: But if you have NEVER HEARD OF HIM then why would you assume that when we refer to him we are talking about THEM?
Subsole
@NotMax: why does the new black look like the old white??
J R in WV
You’re ignoring everything that was written in response to your generalized attack post. Cos-play socialists are by definition NOT socialists. Glenn G is no more a socialist than Trump is. He wants to pretend he’s a leftist, that’s where he has staked a claim.
But cos-play is not just for people who want to pretend to be Klingons today. People pretend to be socialists in order to attack real leftists from their pretend post on the further, more-real left, which really isn’t their belief sructure at all~!~
I’ve been contributing to Stacy Abrams’ org in Georgia for quite a while now, and switched to a find split between her org, and Jon’s and Reverend Warnoke’s campaigns.
Here where I am, the only remnants of leftist politics are the feeble remnants of unionism, which we have supported to our max ability.
Don’t be a drive by hitter, stick around and see what’s going on. B-J has raised a ton of money for progressive candidates and causes, and tries to shine a bright light at people who seek to put progressives, real ones, down with false accusations.
Like asserting that “Cos-Play socialists” is an attack on real socialists.
Not so, it’s an attack on faux socialists using that fake stand to attack real socialists and progressives. Take a look at the fundraising Balloon Juice has accomplished! I’m proud of all the jackals, but the few I have pied for being stupid most of the time. And don’t make me put you in the pie safe~!!!~
O. Felix Culpa
@Baud: LOL. See: effective organizer — how not to be.
O. Felix Culpa
@VidaLoca: Thanks.
Barbara
@Elizabelle: Yes, she is one of my least favorite voices. I think overall the NYT has made some great additions — Michelle Goldberg in particular — but Liz Bruenig’s Catholic convert reasoning and POV really grates on me nearly as much as Ross Douthat’s does.
trollhattan
@schrodingers_cat:
I do love going to the doctor to renew my prescription for “do something.” The pharmacist hands over a new pair of cycling shoes, usually with two refills.
VidaLoca
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
So I started reading Balloon Juice back in the 2005-2006 years when John was still a Republican. I still read through a thread or two every couple of days because I think your community represents a lot of what the liberal left is thinking. You guys aren’t beanbag, you’re big enough to be representative of something. And I think that “something” matters because we’re faced with a the New Confederacy that’s very much an existential threat to all of us.
I’m not trying to police shit. I don’t comment here much because as I said above, this isn’t my community and I’m well aware that my opinions won’t change any of yours. I do have some disagreements with what I took to be the topic of this thread because a lot of people who don’t hold all the opinions you do, but do get that Trump and the New Confederacy are a big big problem, threw down with you to try to do something about it. And some of you all seem to be unable to distinguish us from David Sirota.
If that’s the general thinking on the liberal left, I’m a little surprised but the only way to find out is to call you on it.
J R in WV
@VidaLoca:
That’s such a tiny number, tho. Balloon Juice alone has more than 90,000 different individuals visit in a given month. That makes us 50% larger than DSA.
And I’ll bet we raised way more than 50% more funds for progressive candidates in the election cycle now (please, FSM) ending. If DSA can’t bring themselves to support Senator Warren or Harris, who exactly that might win a race will they support?
I mention those two as they got our support in the Democratic primaries as long as they were in the race. When Harris (most progressive senator in the race) dropped out, we switched to Warren (next most progressive), until Biden nailed it down. Then he picked Harris as VP candidate, which buoyed my feelings so well!
I went to the B-J fundraising page, and added in my head until I ran past a million dollars raised for Democratic candidates for Senate, House and state races. And it isn’t barely, that is just where I stopped, mental arithmetic makes my head hurt, so I stopped when I got to house races.
Anyone thing DSA did that much for progressive candidates? Anyone? Yeah, me neither!
laura
Just a plain vanilla lifelong Dem here offering my unasked opinion. I value using the social good as measuring stick for policy. I hope that the new deal is not tossed on the heap by the SC majority and want a bigger New, New Deal. I want confiscatory tax rates that wring the idle capital out of the soft palms of the too fucking wealthy. I want big juicy responsive government including massive hiring at the federal, state and local government. I want the end of school choice in favor of public schools and I want young scholars to have lunch ladies and band and counselors and nurses. I want a social safety net for anyone who needs it and I want the end of police as mental health first responders and the criminalization of mental illness. I want drag queen story hour at the library and i want a taco truck on my corner. I want access to the courts and class actions as an efficient means of judicial economy. I want Richard Griffen as Labor Secretary.
I do not need or want a cult of personality. I reject the idea that progress depends on the one true leader. I want unionization in every area of work that workers favor representation. I want power with accountability. I dont need a shiny new “party” that cant stand on it’s own merits, but seeks to co-opt my political party and expects a hearty thank you for its demand to get to the front of the line. I reject any and all efforts to make the perfect the enemy of the good. I’m done with misogyny and racism. My world wants and needs competence, kindness, color, space for current and future disabled to move to the fore. I want the virtuous cycle of dollars circulating in every city and town and state and region. I do not want Michael Moore to ever “lead” a womens march ever again.
Is that too much to ask?
Gravenstone
Since I didn’t want to sully up Ruemara’s respite-ish thread upstairs, this is your friendly reminder to get your errands done today or tomorrow if at all possible. Because Wednesday we enter the window when the folks who got themselves exposed over Thanksgiving are likely to start being contagious. And won’t that be the start of a fun week or five?
Subsole
@mrmoshpotato: Y’know, were I a judge I would MIGHTILY resent these chucklestains wasting my time…hope they don’t have any kind of memory or appetite for grudges.
VidaLoca
@J R in WV:
@Citizen Alan:
OK, think of like this: “cosplay socialists” is to real socialists as “neoliberal democratic centrists” is to you all. It would be like lumping you in with Rahm Emanuel. Not accurate, and way not useful.
J R in WV
@O. Felix Culpa:
I’ve about decided VidaLoca is just another troll, not interested in learning anything about Balloon Juice the community, and surely not interested in actually organizing any movement actually working for constructive change.
I suspect at the end of this thread, I’ll put VidaLoca in the Pie Safe for future reference, where I won’t have to try to work with them. VidaLoca can come out when VidaLoca shows us that VidaLoca has helped raise over a million bucks for progressives and Democrats in any election cycle ever.
schrodingers_cat
@laura: Great comment!
schrodingers_cat
@J R in WV: Great idea. We were celebrating and they show up to rain on our parade with a smug and a superior attitude. I went and did a search, they are a repeat offender, this is not the first time they have done it either.
SFBayAreaGal
@laura: I want the same thing. I too am a life long Democrat. Thank you for posting this.
wenchacha
@Chris Johnson: I share your confusion about the Warren-hate. Lots of it from people loving Kamala Harris. Lots of agreement that Warren was no ally to BIPOC, lying about her heritage and not apologizing correctly, doing nothing for the people.
DId I miss something important? Am I blinded by my privilege, because I know I’m not perfect. There was grousing about the tv spot she did in a schoolroom and the wooden blocks on a shelf spelled “V O T E”. Was that bad, like virtue-signaling?
I didn’t try to join that discussion, but it bothered me that right now, these last two months, I think it is important to support Joe Biden, not tear down pols who are team players. I am thrilled with Kamala Harris, but I would also have been thrilled with Warren. I have liked EW since she wrote books about home finance and inequality.
CatFacts
Isn’t it interesting that a thread about the women of the new administration gets derailed? And by “interesting” I mean “really annoying and quite possibly deliberate”.
Laura’s comment, now, that one I agree with.
patroclus
Gee! Yet another circular firing squad on BJ! There is no way I could possibly comment on everything that’s been thrown around here. But as a Chicagoan, who has had to deal with Rahm Emmanuel as my Mayor, my Congressman, as COS to Obama and as a high ranking Clinton WH aide, I think he could be quite effective in the right job. He’s kind of like LBJ during the 30’s – a useful tool albeit not a statesman – and could be unleashed like a pit bull to accomplish specific purposes. I didn’t really like him as Mayor and voted against him numerous times, but I liked him as a Congressman and voted for him then. I realize he has the effect on many observers as Khan does to Kirk, but he’s usually on our side and frequently accomplishes things
Oh, and I don’t “hate” Elizabeth Warren, but I don’t like her views on trade at all. Tanking Obama’s signature initiative – the TPP – to me, means she should be nowhere near trade policy ever.
VidaLoca
@J R in WV: I’ll make no brief for the tactics or the thinking that come out of a lot of the DSA chapters. As O. Felix Culpa notes above, they can definitely be untrustworthy. However, to your point about numbers, and related point about money and campaigns, one thing we can agree on is those campaigns are over (except GA which will be over soon enough). The campaigns will close up their offices and their websites, the candidates — those that won — will go on to be elected officials. Those that lost will go on to do who knows what. And that will be it for anther two years. All quiet until the cycle starts up again, and it will start from scratch.
Meanwhile those 60,000 DSA members are going to stay active and they’re going to be trying to do … something. Some will win some victories and build bases in workplaces and communities, some will become known for being untrustworthy and either mend their ways or disappear.
Either way those 60,000 — mostly young, many naive, all impatient — people won’t be lining up to join their local Democratic Party chapters. Not to critique the money you all raised, I’m aware that it was huge and I have no doubt it made a difference in many races. But those 60,000 people walking away from you? That looks like a problem.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@wenchacha: I’m an Elizabeth Warren fan. I think in a smarter country she’d be president. In contrast to some of the people I’m resisting naming cause I don’t want to start a fight, she has shown herself to be more of a team player for Biden than just about anybody else in the primary (exception made for Harris, obviously). That said, here and elsewhere things did get kind of cult-y around her. I know I tend to pull back when that shit starts. Hell, I was slow to come around to Obama for that reason.
Also, while I think a smarter country would have elected her president, I also think a smarter politician would have recognized a lot sooner than she did that we don’t live in a very smart country. When I say, and this is something else I think a lot of regulars here don’t like to hear, that a lot of Democrats took drastically wrong lessons from 2016 an 2018, she’s one of the biggest offenders. It’s so hard to quantify the role of sexism in electoral politics, I can’t say she’d have been the nominee if she had grokked that a public option is actually a big, bold idea, and even if we sweep GA it will be a heavy lift, but I’ll always wonder about what might have been.
J R in WV
@laura:
OK,, this is one of the best political comments I have ever seen, anywhere~!!~ Thanks for writing this, putting together such a great list of positive social good goals that I would bet most everyone here would agree with. Who is Richard Griffen, he asks? Ah, NLRB member, I learn something every day here! OK, I’ll go with that, too.
And as an old white guy with many valued female friends and a progressive labor leader wife of nearly 50 years, I’m pretty sick of misogyny myself! And Michael Moore isn’t even a good documentary film maker in my book, while also being a misogynist pig.
Come and sit with us, at a safe distance, of course, plain old-fashinoned Democratic person, indeed~!!!~
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@patroclus:
Well, to be fair it’s only one asshole doing the shooting.
J R in WV
@VidaLoca:
No, it isn’t a problem. It’s a fucking blessing, and the farther they walk the better off we all will be.
you’re a troll. We’re here to celebrate women being appointed to high places, and you’re here to rain on that happy parade.And not for the first time, either. While you are correct about the money we raised being all used up, we aren’t going anywhere, and we will do it again next time. And again, without any help from you whatsoever.
Who did you vote for in the last set of primaries? In the General election just wrapping up? That would tell us more about you than all the pointless griping you have contributed today~!
ETA: so of course VidaLoca won’t share that super secret information. May have just not voted just like 2016.
Subsole
@VidaLoca: If you’re tired of getting lumped in with the trash, maybe throw the trash out? I am not being snarky. The Left, at least as far as online goes, has a serious grifter/4chan-with-Soviet-kitsch problem. It’s just constant Lib-bashing (often using Rightwing vernacular and dog-whistles) all the way up to Congressmembers. Your PACs do it. Your chapters do it. Hell, your loudest voices sat there and accused us of supporting a dementia-addled rapist in Joe Biden. They booed folks that quite frankly are revered by the base for all the work they put in over the decades at great personal cost while courting notorious alt-right pipelines, and now these people wanna lecture Dems on solidarity? Most folks are gonna roll their eyes at that. Some folks may cuss you out. Nobody is gonna take it seriously. Especially folks like me who get shit 365/yr from the goddamn right and certainly don’t need it from the left.
And yes, I am aware of the point you are raising with those groups you listed.
You’re not all assholes. Got it.
Sadly, you are being BADLY outshouted by the assholes, at least online. Find a way to cut them off or drown them out.
Because those groups you listed? They ain’t controlling the online discourse. Shoeonhead, Krang T. Nelson and the Chapo Treehouse Club are. And while those folks may be a laff riot, if you are sick of people side-eyeing you, they ain’t who you want holding the mic. Period.
Because I don’t doubt a lot of y’all are solid on a rank-and-file level, but here in a red part of a red state often my only contact with the left is via your online voices. And far too many of those voices give me real strong “Gamergate with M-L aesthetics” vibes. It’s super not good.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
I may be a neoliberal corporatist shill, but I can say that I gave the DSA a shout and a chance a few years ago. I’d tried to arrange a protest at McConnell’s disgusting megachurch over refugee bans, and needed bodies for visability and a powerful statement to that hive of true conservative villainy. The good news was that the parking lot was subject to a transit lease as a “park and ride” – my theory was that they couldn’t exactly claim exclusive use to bar protestors from the premises, but it required some real numbers for the level of confrontation I expected.
I quietly announced my plans to a small number of trusted people and called the local DSA chapter, which promised enthusiastic involvement.
Day of my protest, my curated handful showed up, but there was nobody from DSA – we were, however met by a couple dozen police cruisers and police from three separate forces that shoved us on to one tiny corner out of sightlines for the church itself. Now, if nobody from DSA was there, and the police got tipped off as to our presence, who can/should I blame that on?
wenchacha
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Thanks for the response. I suppose a lot of campaigns can veer to the cultish if you aren’t careful. And you are right about this not being a smart nation. Everybody talks about the “wisdom of the people,” but how can they be wise if they don’t accept factual evidence?
In college, I served one year on the school judiciary board as a Student. My answers to essay questions about the rules earned me a high score, so I secured a spot. The following year, students opted to have an election for board members, and I was out.
Ruckus
@OzarkHillbilly:
Had a much smaller thing in boot camp. One day we got immunizations, there were somewhere between 2 and 20, with a good guess lots closer to 20, several shots with pneumatic guns and a few with needles. Not all that big a deal till next morning standing on the parade ground waiting for our 3 minutes to eat breakfast. (mom would have been proud how fast we could eat…) and I passed out and fell down. Taken to clinic then hospital after sitting there all day with a 105 fever, in the back of a pickup. Then the fun started, the corpsman was on his first day and had never actually stuck a needle in anyone. Told him after about the 8th try that he should get someone else before I passed out. 9 days in the hospital, 7 before the fever started to break. Good times. Not near as bad as a collapsed lung but fun none the less.
stinger
@laura: Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
VidaLoca
@Subsole:
OK, that’s a valid point. I would not advocate that any organization on the left come up with a way to “cut them off or drown them out” because it would take people and $$ away from the other things we’re trying to do. And besides it would be like swatting mosquitoes, they’ll always be back and buzzing around. If the day ever comes when we have those kind of resources we can make other choices. Meanwhile, one difference I noticed in 2020 vs. 2016 was the near-disappearance of any 3rd-party initiatives of the Jill Stein sort. The left did at least learn that that’s a dangerous dead end. Abstentionism may meet the same fate. We can help this along.
I’m lucky to be living in a place where these groups are weak to non-existent but I get how, where you are, they would seem like a bigger deal. My point, once again, is the New Confederacy is the big deal we should have our eyes on.
stinger
@VidaLoca: Your 60,000 people walking away from the Democratic party works out to 1,200 people per state. That’s not a fearsome number of future unreachables.
artem1s
@laura:
this is my number one complaint with the new cultists – and certain Dem leaders who have been trying to find a replacement for JFK for 50 years. As if that alone will fix the problem with the media and independent voters. It is so distracting when they think they’ve found the next messiah – it takes us a whole election cycle to recover from it. I for one am sick of falling into the media’s trap of demanding the party produce a ‘take charge’ leader, just so they can amuse themselves by knocking them off the pedestal the media built for them.
The Democratic Party works best when we acknowledge the small, incremental, collective changes on the state and local levels and when they encourage those community leaders and the base of voters who make those changes happen. Take those grassroots efforts statewide and then national. forget trying please the media with some Candidate Goodhair who sends tingles up their legs.
different-church-lady
@VidaLoca:
PERSON 1 SPEAKING TO FRIEND IN COFFEE SHOP: “Wow, some people are assholes.”
TOTAL STRANGER TWO TABLES OVER: “HOW DARE YOU CALL ME THAT!!!”
different-church-lady
@VidaLoca:
We are not the ones having this problem.
different-church-lady
@J R in WV:
Yeah, but come on, we know 85,000 of them are Russian bots.
different-church-lady
@VidaLoca: HOLY GODDAMNED MOTHER OF THERE’S A REASON WE HAVE A SEPARATE NAME FOR THE FAKE SOCIALISTS ITS SO THAT WE MAKE A DISTINCTION BETWEEN THEM AND THE REAL SOCIALISTS ARE YOU ACTUALLY THAT GODDAMNED DENSE OR ARE YOU JUST YOU’RE-KILLING-ME-SMALLSING THE FUCK OUT OF US?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Josh Hawley has been huffing Bernie Twitter. Maybe I’ve been overestimating him…
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I was thinking that attitude would kill off Josh in a 2024 GOP run, but then I remembered “Donald the Dove”.
?BillinGlendaleCA
While I’ve seen Neera Tandon on the TV machine in the past, I checked her Wikipedia entry to see what her educational background was…turns out she’s a fellow Bruin.
lowtechcyclist
@Barbara:
As one who frequents Twitter but apparently never runs into these people, it was unclear to me who ‘they’ were that were so awful. At least people giving some names, like DSA and Our Revolution, has clarified things a good deal. Terms like ‘cosplay socialists’ are only meaningful when it’s clear what group one is applying the label to, unless one is sufficiently steeped in the knowledge of lefty orgs to tell the workers from the cosplayers, which I bet most of us aren’t. Lord knows I’m not.
But I’d still like to know how big these guys are, how much they matter – and if they’re not that big or influential, why did this thread get so totally worked up over them? As @J R in WV points out, the BJ commentariat is a good bit larger than DSA’s claimed membership and likely makes more of a practical impact. I have no idea about Our Revolution.
But even though I’m a fairly lefty guy and spend a lot of time on Twitter, the only times I hear about Greenwald and Sirota anymore are from people pointing out their stupidity, which always makes me wonder, why are sane people even giving them that much oxygen? This thread makes me wonder exactly the same thing.
I guess there must be places online where people like us run into people like them a lot more than I do, that’s the only sense I can make of this.
Subsole
@VidaLoca: Agree. Much of the angst is the aforementioned voices seem to disagree with you and I. And due to the frankly apocalyptic stakes, tempers are justifiably short. We cannot squander what little we have.
I do appreciate the list of organizations to look into. Establishing those kind of direct connections and leaving us less at the mercy of unscrupulous cutouts/go-betweens is gonna be key. On that note, perhaps I should have suggested bypassing or sidelining rather than cutting off/drowning out.
H-Bob
@hitless: The President is allowed to make recess appointments. Although the Republicans try to technically avoid recesses, the President is allowed to adjourn Congress if the House & Senate disagree on the time of adjournment. Pelosi should be able to disagree with Mitch on a time of adjournment, so Biden can adjourn Congress and make recess appointments.
cain
@Subsole:
I don’t think this is a fair take – it’s impossible to throw them out because they’ve have the reins of “twitter followers social media” and they are actually trying to do work not be social media butterflies. If they did what you ask, they’d be spending all their time doing wack-a-mole.
It’s kind of like asking indian people to stop all those other indian people from doing bad things.
Ruckus
@laura:
Not from my point of view.
But I do also have to say, Very well said.
O. Felix Culpa
@lowtechcyclist: I run into them in person. They are, shall we say, unpleasant and unproductive.
ETA: Not specifically Sirota and Greenwald, et al, but their local ilk.
germy
Lets unite against the real enemy. McTurtle:
(quoted from the Washington Post)
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
Hooray for these women! We will have a talented bunch in the White House.. FINALLY!
prostratedragon
@Immanentize: This it is, and nothing more.
Barbara
@lowtechcyclist: Not considering people who post regularly on twitter, who can basically be avoided, there are a handful of people like David Sirota and Matt Bruenig who have fairly high profile platforms and whose main output seems to be aimed at continually pointing out the inadequacy of those who don’t, basically, parrot the Sanders agenda, accusing them of being all the same. I cannot say how much real impact it has, but it can become corrosive when it becomes a mainstream message. I think that this thread went off the rails because it was noted that Matt Bruenig lost one of his writing jobs after calling Joan Walsh and Neera Tanden names in rather vitriolic, personal terms that many found ageist and sexist. The fact that the spite seems to be directed with double intensity at women especially bothers me.
When Biden won South Carolina and some of this group (Sirota) expressed real anger that Sanders had been “too nice” to Biden, I thought, and still think, that African American voters in southern states know white people better than we know ourselves. Maybe having spent most of my adult life grappling with the fawning of many peers over presidents I have found to be odious has inured me to the message that good enough isn’t good enough.
Ruckus
@wenchacha:
I think some of this discussion comes from looking for the perfect over the available. Of course no one is perfect, but some are less perfect than others. Not one candidate on the November ballot was perfect. Not even the one we ended up hiring. A lot of what we have as a problem in politics is that it involves people. People that want what they want over everyone else’s want. In the course of my lifetime that has been almost 100% white men doing the wanting and the answering, some of whom have zero idea of the necessities of actual humans, often in just surviving. JR in WV made a point about how much BJ folks have donated. And it’s a lot, and I’d bet not all of us have donated everything through BJ, I haven’t, so our reach is probably much higher. But someone has to do something with that money to win an election. Folks here have done that as well.
We have a wide spectrum of the left on this blog so often not everyone knows the lingo that is used and exactly what that means/stands for. And that’s because we have widely varying views of the left side of the aisle. Which I like because we have to be strong and actually vote for the people we like best and when they don’t make it we have to have a number 2 and 3 and…. My order this go round was KH, EW, JB, and I’m not really sure. I got 2 of my 3 but in a different order. So what. I’m happy with the result because I know that they will do their very best to represent the most number of people of all races and all sexual directions. And that is extremely important because we are strong when we are together, even if we aren’t getting all we individually want. So many people have been pushed aside to allow the rich to get richer but that doesn’t mean we can just interchange the old rich with a different rich and watch them get richer. We need systemic change in our country, to bring it to what it was supposed to be from the beginning but never really has been, an actual democracy for everyone, a place to be proud of, not for the people we’ve killed or the wealth some have, but for the equality of all, the possibility of possible.
CarolPW
@different-church-lady: You are of superior stock and everyone should be having your babies!
Subsole
@cain: I worded that rather poorly. I am saying remove their monopoly on external comms. Show that if people don’t like the DSA or the bad actors, there are options. Often just showing up and letting people see there is a socialist who isn’t going to scream and hurl pigs’ blood at them for being a warmongering neoliberal cringe shill because they disagree would make a difference. I mean, hell. Go have big public showy discussions about comms and re-tooling public approach. Let people see you are aware that some of these clowns are putting people off. That alone would be a big step.
different-church-lady
@CarolPW: Lord knows I don’t want to have them…
VidaLoca
@Subsole:
Whoa. I was working on a response to your earlier comment when I saw this one. This is a thing? Pig’s blood?
Citizen Alan
@VidaLoca:
Why? Sixty thousand people is less than the electoral college margin in 2016. Except the 60000 people in the DSA are spread over the whole country instead of strategically located in 3 States. About 161 million people voted In this past election. AGgainst that, 60,000 DSA voters nationwide Is a rounding error.
different-church-lady
Here, let’s see if a drop of Yglesias can clear up who we’re talking about for the folks in the back of the room:
Note the word “segment” with extreme prejudice and a side of bacon.
So if you ain’t in that segment, then YOU AIN’T WHO WE’RE TALKING ABOUT DO I NEED TO DRAW YOU A ROCKET SURGEON???
VidaLoca
@stinger:
@Citizen Alan:
OK, but you don’t have to stop that argument at 1200 per state, you can go farther. Wisconsin has 72 counties and I can guaran-damn-tee you that the Democratic Party unit in my county would love to get 17 new young people who are as committed to electoral field work as some of the young people going into the DSA. Because your current members here are, quite frankly, aging out. But the young actists aren’t going into the Democratic Party here or anywhere else and it’s not by accident: someone from the DSA sat down with them and had a conversation, in which they persuaded them that the DSA wanted what they want, and that they could get it by joining a like-minded organization. Now that they’re in, they aren’t likely to be leaving any time soon. So that’s 17, or 1200, or 60000 people who aren’t listening to you. The only way to change that is, you have to be able to have that conversation, you have to be able to make that sell.
If you can bring in those kind of numbers to your local or state party branch at the moment, it’s a wash — congratulations and more power to you. If you can’t, it looks to me like a problem. And it’s not about the votes — who’s going to go out and get those votes? People who will put in the time and make the sacrifices to be activists are not that common.
Brachiator
@laura:
Very late reply.
Well said!
@VidaLoca
They can join the Democratic Party or start a new one. Either is fine by me. But otherwise they have to convince other people that what they want is appealing to the larger society. They don’t always seem to be interested in doing that.
debbie
Apropos:
different-church-lady
@debbie: Reading down, I see that Doug is now able to mock the NYT by simply retweeting their actual articles.
germy
Glem really needs an editor.
Geminid
@VidaLoca: Late this spring the DSA had its convention. Bernie Sanders was obviously going to be nominated, but a member who recognized how great a threat trump was to all of us proposed a resolution that would commit the party to back whoever the Democrats nominated to run against him. The people who ran the convention would not allow that resolution to get to a floor vote. The DSA can nominate anyone it chooses. That is their right. But as far as I’m concerned, the DSA has already walked away from the Democrats.
When I comment on “left criticism” of Democrats, I’m talking about left wing polemicists, not social justice advocates. I don’t waste words trying to differentiate between the two groups, because it is plain from the context who I am pushing back on. I think this is true of most of the criticisms you complain about. I am not sure you are arguing on good faith.
germy
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@VidaLoca:
someone from the DSA sat down with them and had a conversation, in which they persuaded them that the DSA wanted what they want, and that they could get it by joining a like-minded organization.
what self-indulgent horseshit were these hypothetical — or do they exist, your language is more than a little slippery– young voters fed in order to get them to join? and in which country does a national party of 60,000 people get what they want? Andorra? Liechtenstein?
Zelma
@laura:
I am late to this thread and no one will see this but Brava Laura!
Subsole
@VidaLoca: I have a bad habit of indulging hyperbole.
Usually it’s this infuriatingly glib dismissive “lol you want people 2 die becuz u think m4all is bad” shit. Or they go off on multitweet screeds against people being corporatist profiteers for refusing to agree we should tear down industrial society.
I really meant it when I said it reminds me of 4chan edgelord shit. Same contrarian obsession with gotchas and such. Same instant fucking leap to attack. Same confusing contrarianism for actual cleverness.
@germy: Every person I ever edited copy for needed one. My copy ESPECIALLY needed one. The ones who needed it most thought they didn’t need it at all.
andy
@GeoWHayduke: How many battalions does Rose Twitter have?