I find Jennifer Rubin interesting, because she’s one of the smarter and more realistic never-Trump Republicans. Her ideal end state for the Republican Party would be one where folks like Romney and Cheney were back in charge. So, we get today’s back-and-forth column that vacillates between acknowledging reality (we need a huge stimulus) and trying to find a place for Republicans in the creation of that stimulus. It’s a hard lift. For example, here she is talking about the measly $600 billion counteroffer to Biden’s $1.9 trillion stimulus:
The counteroffer underscores several aspects of the dynamic between Congress and the new president. First, despite the media hounding the White House about when they will resort to reconciliation, the outreach from the White House has induced at least some kind of response. This is how negotiations work: posturing, initial offers and more discussion before you can determine if there is a bill to be had. Second, the Republican counteroffer suggests there is some segment of the party nervous about pure obstructionism. […]
For JRubin, what happened in the first two years of Obama’s term wasn’t manipulative bad-faith bargaining, it was compromise. She just doesn’t see the bad faith, so she is excited that a couple of Republicans pooped out a joke of a counteroffer. That said, I think she comes by her blindness to bad faith honestly, otherwise how could she write this piece of fantasy fic:
A promise from Republicans, for example, to not filibuster on voting rights, green energy or other agenda items could substantially sweeten the pot for Biden. That really would be a step in the direction of unity.
Frankly, this is kind of refreshing, because it acknowledges that Democrats won and that Republicans need to give something meaningful to get something, since the $1.9 trillion can be more-or-less passed via reconciliation. That said, it describes a fairytale world where Republicans somehow come to the table with an agenda other than delay and sabotage.
Here’s the general deal about Never Trumpers like Rubin, David Frum and the Lincoln Project: they have an agenda, and it isn’t anywhere near ours. Like others on this website, I’ve enjoyed Lincoln Project ads from time to time, though I’m highly skeptical that a dollar sent to the Lincoln Project has anything like the impact of a dollar sent to your average candidate on ActBlue, or to the organizations that delivered Georgia for Democrats. Plus, some of the Lincoln folks are are grifters and one is a sexual predator. David Frum is a fucking warmonger of the first order. Rubin’s the best of the bunch, and this column shows just how myopic she can be at times.
Price linked subsidies and who cares about spreads or levels
germy
Four Seasons Total Landscaping mistermix
@germy: Fucking Mike Rounds of SD is one of the 10. That should tell you all you need to know about whether those 10 will vote for anything resembling what Biden wants.
Facebones
That’s my opinion of the Lincoln Project and Frum and Rubin to a T. I’m glad they were out there taking shots at Trump and the hard right lunatics, they do fun tweets, and the Lincoln Project made some killer ads. But all of those people would have been perfectly happy with President Jeb or Walker or Rubio in 2016, and all of those people would have made policy as crappy as Trump, but with a more genteel voice
Jerzy Russian
Another step in the direction of unity would be if they punched Ted Cruz in the face before announcing their retirement. “They” in the previous sentence refers to GOP Senators, GOP members of Congress, and most of the DC press corpse.
oldster
Agreed: they ain’t our friends. The best you can say of them is: they’re not the worst among our enemies.
But that’s a good enough basis for occasional, carefully-chosen, cautious and transactional alliances.
Think FDR and Stalin.
Josie
I sincerely hope Biden’s answer is similar to the one we are all familiar with.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qynydbBpqy4
Jeffro
@Josie: I just KNEW that was gonna be the clip I thought it was!! =)
Yes, this, absolutely! JUST DO IT, Dems! Don’t split the difference, don’t meet in the middle, just pass the Biden package and KEEP GOING!!
Ken
@Jerzy Russian: How about if the 10 Senators agree that they’ll each find two pals, and the 30 of them will boycott the impeachment? Leaving 70 Senators voting, 50 of them Democrats.
MisterForkbeard
@Ken: Nah. Impeaching Trump probably isn’t worth completely botching the covid response.
Geminid
I read the story about Jim Weaver being a sexual predator. But you’re saying “predators,” plural. Are you saying the Lincoln Project has more than one?
Felanius Kootea
I’ve been astounded by her transformation. Couldn’t have been easy coming to understand what her party truly stands for in the Trump era. I’ll still cut her some slack.
OGLiberal
As my wife and I have been saying for some time, I’ll take the assist. Call me nuts but I think I’ve actually seen a bit of a policy shit from folks like Rubin and Kristol. Probably not so much a shift as they felt more free to recognize publicly stuff they always believed but never said because it would have been heresy – stuff like hating on gays, racism, guns, religious extremism, etc. And the QAnon lunatics are not good for their brand…or anybody’s brand. But they probably still love tax cuts for rich people/corps and I’m pretty certain both would still love to bomb Iran.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
unless you’re aware of a case other then Weaver that I’m not, this is lazy, gross and the kind of thing the Federalist does
Jerzy Russian
@Ken: I know we are supposed to be in the spirit of compromise, but if Ted Cruz does not end up getting punched in the face, then no deal. So how about “10 Senators, each one finds two pals, and at least one pal punches Ted Cruz in the face, …”?
PenandKey
@oldster: That has been my take since day one. We are, still, in an existential fight for our national survival against literal fascists. If it takes a temporary alliance with actual cold war era style Republicans, so be it. As long as everyone knows the score we don’t even have to like each other. We just have to work together for our common good.
I’m the election they did that, and more power to them. But “good faith” articles like this simply shoe that, despite that, they’re still ideological opponents. And even that’s not a long term certainty as our very own host can attest.
Ken
@MisterForkbeard: I didn’t say that the Democrats would accept the Republican plan in exchange. See Josie at #6.
Mag
We’re still seeing Republicans as chairing Senate committees and obstructing Biden’s cabinet nominee confirmation hearings. Lindsey Graham is one of the worse of the bunch, from a tweet from reporter Jamie Dupree on Friday.
Obstruction is what they have
And from yesterday:
MisterForkbeard
I think Biden’s just going to speak with them, and then publicly say “Unfortunately, the offer just does not solve the problem. It’s simply not to the scale that economists and health leaders recommend and that our country needs to keep our workers afloat and to keep our people safe. So I thank the Senators for engaging and submitting their ideas, but it’s not a good starting point.”
If he wants, he can say that they’re going to clawback some of the stimulus money later from people who made a lot of money this year, if they got a stimulus check. (narrator: they did not get a stimulus check)
cmorenc
It would be worth meeting the group of 10 more or less halfway IF there was a genuine prospect of peeling them away on an array of issues from the much larger total obstructionist GOP senate faction led by McConnell. The 85% of the GOP that is at perpetual scorched-earth war with democrats and progressives would be still rudely noisy, but ineffective if the significant sliver of never-Trumpers deserted the hard-liners.
That said, it’s up to the faction purporting to be open to working constructively with Biden to prove their bona fides, and not up to Biden to trust their good faith against all past evidence, only to replay the Charley-Brown-football-and-Lucy paradigm.
guachi
I follow Rubin on Twitter and she’s not a Never Trumper Republican as she’s no longer a Republican. She does have a blind spot for Romney, though.
Ransom
Now over at the bulwark, there seems to be something different; an *AEI economist* wonders “How to make Biden’s Rescue Plan Better”: https://thebulwark.com/how-to-make-bidens-american-rescue-plan-better/
If conservatives can start from where this guy starts, dems could do business: he asserts two things at the outset: 1) 1.9 trillion is fine! better to not undershoot 2) inflation insmachion
MisterForkbeard
@Ken: Damn, you’re right. That’s what I get for not reading the whole comment thread.
Okay, what if we get to punch Ted Cruz AND Hawley in the face?
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
Rational, ideological opponents are healthy for Democracy. They sometimes have a point and are better placed to find holes in our arguments and policies that, after amendment, can make them better. In this way, they can serve as more than just allies against fascists like Trump, Cruz, Hawley, etc.
Four Seasons Total Landscaping mistermix
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Or, it could have been poor sentence construction! That would be a good faith assumption, but you do you. I fixed it.
Soprano2
I thought there was a power sharing agreement in the Senate now. Why are Republicans still the chairs of any committees?
jefft452
“it acknowledges that Democrats won and that Republicans need to give something meaningful to get something”
“A promise from Republicans” is not something meaningful
wvng
Two things. Regarding Rubin, she has been calling for the total destruction of the republican party and salting the earth behind them. Yes, she remains a conservative, but she is under no illusions that the current form of the republican party is salvageable. I agree with her on this. Also, by-in-large, her analyses are impressive.
Second, regarding the republican ten. Have they all, every one, said publicly that Biden is President and that the Big Lie that the election was stolen is a big lie? If not, I can’t see why any Democrat should meet with them, because they are perpetuating the problem. .
p.a.
If the Ds stand firm on what is needed and telling the minority party to fuck off, will be interesting to see when the LP turns on the Dems. As for now, agree with the FDR/Stalin analogy already stated: the level of threat requires taking on unnatural allies. The main good to potentially come from the Lincoln Project would be the split of the Republican Party and its (and its splinter’s) national electoral insignificance for ? Hopefully a decade at least. While the remains become regional bible-thumper area parties.
Bruce K in ATH-GR
@MisterForkbeard:
I can’t approve of that, because I’m pretty sure that would hurt my hand. Can I use a baseball bat instead?
And regarding Republican promises not to filibuster some bits of legislation? Those promises are worthless without collateral backing them up, and I can’t think of anything that’d ensure Moscow Mitch upheld the bargain, short of literal knives to the actual throats of people he cared about.
SiubhanDuinne
@germy:
This morning I heard someone — probably on MJ, I dunno, I was 75% asleep at the time — meeping about how awful it was that Susan Collins was invited to the WH before Nancy Pelosi. Even in my pre-dawn befogged state, it occurred to me that Madam Speaker was just fine with letting the Republican crew meet with Biden and likely make imbeciles of themselves in the process.
OGLiberal
One thing about the Never Trumpers – almost all of them were complicit in creating this beast….using shit the rubes love and that they don’t care about to get their neo-con foreign policy on. I’d love to see one of them apologize for that but not holding my breath. Regardless, again, I’ll take the assist. If we can kill the current Trump cult somebody is going to need to build shit up from the ashes on the right and better them than some lunatics.
raven
The Covid Response team say no to the audible.
MisterForkbeard
@SiubhanDuinne: Biden’s being careful with Covid protocols. The only reason Collins gets the invite is that he needs to be seen to engage with them publicly and respectfully.
Biden’s already engaged with Pelosi. This is smart politics and she gets that. I swear, dems will whine about anything. Or was it the media
@raven: Good. I don’t think it would make that much difference anyway.
OGLiberal
@SiubhanDuinne: Agreed. Does Joe even need to meet with Nancy? I mean, what disagreements do they have? They are both busy – ceremonial meet and greets mean nothing.
Joe Biden was in Congress since almost before I was born. I heard a recording of Nixon calling Senator Biden to offer his condolences on the loss of his wife and daughter…that’s how long he’s been there. When it comes to making policy and parliamentary politics, the dude knows what’s going on. And so does Nancy. They don’t need to meet because they are on exactly the same page.
Baud
@SiubhanDuinne:
That’s as dumb a take as I’ve ever heard.
Lyrebird
Yeah, this take on the Lincoln Project sounds just too much like when people tried to equate HRC’s campaign with the movie mogul predator. Weinstein? Ugh I want to go back to blocking out his name. Anyhow, he had contributed to various Dem campaigns. That doesn’t mean they were all cool with his crimes.
Ken
@wvng: Last night someone suggested Biden should have the press in the room when the Republicans arrive. So start the meeting with having each of them repudiate the Big Lie and acknowledge Biden as President, and broadcast and live-stream it.
schrodingers_cat
Jennifer Rubin has been one of the most consistent anti-Orange MSM voices out there. And that includes journobros supposedly on our side who either attack Ds from the left or for being not bipartisany enough.
MattF
I think Rubin looks back longingly to the now-extinct niche of ‘liberal Republican’ but fully understands that it’s now an oxymoron. She openly admires Pelosi and Abrams, which goes beyond the usual Never Trump line, but also stays out of the various Democratic Party family battles. And I’m quite sure she understands what bad faith means– but as a negotiator, one must have a positive way of dealing with it, e.g., by pretending that bad faith offers are genuine and drawing plausible conclusions.
robmassing
There is a definite “now that Trump is gone let’s go back to the way things were” vibe. As if Trump was just an anomaly.
mali muso
@Josie: This 100%. I was trying to find that quote yesterday as it was my first reaction to this nonsense. Nothing, you get nothing. lol
Barbara
@cmorenc:
I would like to remind people, if you have forgotten, that Max Baucus and Joe Lieberman were as much responsible for stringing Obama along on the ACA as Olympia Snowe was. I do think Biden is cannier at playing this game because he has been around for so long.
Eolirin
@Baud: Makes sense when you confuse politics for high society social gossip. Always on the look out for whether people are being snubbed or favored and where they stand in the social hierarchy.
I think that’s one of the main failure points of our media. There’s no sense of government as anything other than an exclusive celebrity club.
Another Scott
@raven: Good, good.
The idea that we should just Leeroy Jenkins the COVID response in the face of (totally expected) mutations is nonsensical. We have to follow the science and the evidence.
Cheers,
Scott.
OGLiberal
@MattF: Bill Kristol also admires Pelosi which, my lord, I’d never thought I’d be able to say that and believe it. But he does. The thing about Never Trumpers is that they were able to not just recognize the crazy – which is blatantly evident, even to folks like Ted Cruz – but distance themselves from it. There’s a certain grift aspect to it (cough, cough…Rick Wilson) but I think there’s a lot of honest disgust as well. Trump made conservatism look bad…and Trump isn’t even a conservative…he’s nothing…he’s just Trump and believes in nothing but Trump. But it wasn’t just about damaging their brand – they saw the great risk the Trump cult posed.
MattF
Since it hasn’t yet been linked to, here’s the NYT article on Trump’s campaign to subvert the election. Note the passage:
Twitter says that the ‘much worse’ comment was ‘cousin fucker’.
randy khan
The move to the light side is a process, and Rubin is still working her way there. She may or may not get all the way, but I will accept that she’s moving. That doesn’t affect whether I agree or disagree with her on any particular topic.
On the substance, if I were Biden I’d offer some change to the upper threshold for the $1,400 checks, but not budge on the $1,400 and not limit them nearly as drastically as the Republicans. Dropping the threshold by, oh, $25,000 ($50,000 for married couples) wouldn’t take out too many people and would give the Republicans a fig leaf. But I’d also be clear that in return for the change I’d need a commitment that they will vote yes. (And it’s worth noting that the income levels being discussed are 2019 income, since the checks will go out before most people have filed their 2020 tax returns. There are plenty of people who made well over the Republicans’ $50,000 individual threshold who are making much less right now.) The rest of what they want is a big no.
Baud
@Eolirin:
The notion that Biden is snubbing Pelosi is so ludicrous though. I can’t remember another time when Democratic leaders were all on the same page as they are right now.
sdhays
@Another Scott: I keep waiting for the other shoe to drop in the UK. They’re getting praise for their vaccine rollout compared to the screwup in Europe, but part of their “success” has been just forgetting about the second dose. Considering how awful the overall response to the virus in the UK has been, it’s hard to accept that attempting to cut another corner was a brilliant move by the “brilliant” Tory government.
Baud
@MattF:
Is that really worse than lying?
SiubhanDuinne
@Baud:
Right?
SiubhanDuinne
@MisterForkbeard:
@OGLiberal:
Yep and yep.
Ruckus
@guachi:
In name or in actuality?
If it walks, talks, acts like a republican, even a sane one (can’t believe I just typed that) then it’s a republican. Just because the majority of republicans have dropped any and all pretense of what they want and who they are does not make those on the same side of the aisle not republicans. The road the republicans are on is the same one they have been on for decades, they have just managed to get farther down that road. Even if they back up at full speed, they have a long way to go to being anything but destructive. And yes, it is healthy for there to be more than one side in governing, but there has to be realism, road and house building along the way. This, one of the supposedly wealthiest countries in the world had made $2000 available to it’s citizens so that they didn’t have to work for over a year, and possibly not kill off a large portion of them. For the vast majority, even those on it’s side that has been squat. They have thrown tantrum after tantrum about the simple act of wearing a mask to save themselves and their families. But that’s too much for them, so much too much they rioted and threw an insurrection, and assisted that from inside the highest level of government. That’s not legitiment governing in any way, shape or form.
sdhays
@OGLiberal: I still can’t quite comprehend how much successful politicians in the Republican Party have been able to happily accept the very stupid man with brain worms as being smarter and better than they are. I mean, some of these people had to work to get to their positions, and they may be nasty and mean people, but they’re not totally stupid either. They must see how undeserving of leadership Dump is, and yet they happily grovel before him.
It goes beyond gritting their teeth to make their base happy, and it’s a part of what makes the current Republican Party so cult-like.
Cacti
I’ll never for a moment trust the good intentions of Jenghazi Rubin, or that any relief package offer from the Republicans was made in good faith.
But it’s necessary for Biden to go through the motions of hearing them out before moving on without them.
If cost wasn’t a concern for Mitt Romney and Susan Collins when they rammed the Trump tax cut for billionaires and corporations through, it shouldn’t be now. That should be the Dems’ message.
Gravenstone
A promise by Republicans to (_____________), is worth less than the paper it was written on. Until that is clearly understood and universally repeated, even the most ardent and “clear eyed” never-Trumpers will be working from false pretenses.
Another Scott
@randy khan: I disagree.
The GOP proposals are not made in good faith. Biden shouldn’t change anything unless there’s an objectively very good reason for it. Suddenly cutting people who got relief under Donnie’s administration will do nothing but build resentment, won’t help the economy stabilize any faster, and won’t get any GOP votes (they’ll find something else that “goes too far”).
Death of 1000 cuts won’t help Democrats in November 2022.
Push it through as is and move on, I say.
Cheers,
Scott.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
odd to me how many people on John Cole’s blog are committed to the idea that leopards never change their spots
and to some degree Biden is not negotiating with Collins et al, he’s negotiating with Machin, Sinema, and probably King and maybe Tester and…? One thing I’ve been wondering: Are Manchin or any other Dems invite to this meeting, or is it just the people who voted to acquit trump even though they acknowledged he broke the law (with the exception of Romney) and the ones who danced on RBG’s grave (with the cynical and opportunistic exception of Collins.
schrodingers_cat
OT: Twitter India is withholding accounts of journalists and ordinary citizens trying to amplify the farmers protests.
I think they are planning another pogrom like the last year’s Delhi pogrom. Please amplify if you have Twitter accounts, thanks.
GoI (Government of India) is
Putting up concrete barricades
Amassing an army outside the outskirts of Delhi.
hitless
@Cacti: I think Rubin and Max Boot are distinct from others of their political history in that both have overtly acknowledged systemic racism on the US in their writing. I know both supported the Iraq war and numerous other hideous mistakes. But supporting social justice now is something that I have not seen from their fellow travelers and I think while they are not liberals, they surely are no longer Republicans.
leeleeFL
@oldster: They help answer my prayer that God/ The Universe, Someone make my enemies ridiculous! When I say things the Repubs don’t like, I am Socialist/Red Diaper Baby Traitor. But when they say the same things, Rs are not noticing my existence and make themselves hate on their own ppl. Kinda nice, don’t you think?
Kathleen
@guachi: Exactly. I read her columns every day and is one of the very few who calls out Rethugs for the racist, fascist nihilists they are. She may be the only pundit who speaks the truth about Rethug perfidy. And she’s very supportive of Biden and Denmocrats. More than those supposedly in our party.
Another Scott
@Another Scott: Furthermore, I’m reminded of what happened in 1981 when Reagan proposed his giant tax cuts. (IIRC,) Tip and the Democrats initially said it was ridiculous and dead on arrival and so forth, but once he/they saw that it was going to pass, they made sure to get things that they wanted included in it. “Christmas tree” is a term I recall being thrown about.
If Republicans were smart (yeah, I know), they would fight for a while, but then demand for things to be included – not cut. They know a bill is going to pass – the only question is whether any GOP stuff is included. People who know how politics works would recognize this. Today’s GOP may be too far gone – an interesting test is coming…
Cheers,
Scott.
Platonicspoof
@OGLiberal:
Well done.
Kent
I found myself getting enraged by the framing on NPR this morning. Yes…I know, I shouldn’t listen, but the radio is in my bathroom and I’m showering and shaving.
The commentator was talking about the $1.3 trillion dollar difference in the cost of the two plans as the ‘COST OF BIPARTISANSHIP’ and I was suddenly enraged. Since when is there supposed to be any cost at all to bipartisanship. In their ideal centrist world you take the BEST from the left and the right and sprinkle some bipartisan fairy dust over it and you get something BETTER than what you would have had before. The Democrats bring the chicken, the Republicans bring the vegetables, and the result is a better stew that is good for everyone. The best ideas of both parties so to speak.
They aren’t even pretending that is the case anymore. The reporters SHOULD be asking, why do we even want bipartisanship at all if all it does is make things worse? Why can’t Republicans offer anything that will make the package BETTER? It is a dead ideology and they don’t even know it.
Cost of Bipartisanship? Fuck them. Tell me about the Benefits of Bipartisanship instead. To real Americans. Because I want to know what they are.
cmorenc
@Barbara:
Alas, I do well-remember Baucus’s foolishness and Lieberman’s caucus-undermining knavery back in 2008-2010, as well as his deciding to appear at the 2012 RNC convention rather than DNC convention. I also recall the purportedly moderate willing to work-with-Obama Senators Collins and Snowe constantly moving the goalposts such as to never be satisfied in negotiations over the substance of the prospective ACA.
And I am also well-aware that the group of 10 GOP senators purportedly willing to try to work with Biden might prove to be up to the same game this time around. What I am saying in my earlier comment is that it’s worth Biden testing their actual willingness to meet him bona fide halfway, so long as he has short patience with them if this shows signs of being nothing but a cover for protracted stalling tactics and P.R. cover.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
interesting follow up to the Veep’s outreach to WV local media
One thing that baffles me about Manchin and Sinema, even though I suspect at bottom it’s about neither being overburdened with intelligence or self-awareness: Why they don’t advocate for filibuster reform as opposed to elimination. The media would love it– which would increase their profiles and influence, it would put Rs in a box, it would give them an excuse to leave Mitch hanging…
ALurkSupreme
I’d like to gently suggest that less attention be paid on this site to what Republicans and even former Republicans think. We rip the FTFNYT for this all the time, and justifiably so.
The Republicans have no policies, except to break shit, and all their “arguments” are made in bad faith. Until that changes, a steady regimen of ridicule works for me.
Kathleen
@schrodingers_cat: This.
Kent
@Another Scott: In the days of Tip and Ronnie we didn’t have Fox News so pork actually worked. Senators and Congressmen could go back to their districts and do ribbon cuttings and get on the local news and praise in the local papers and basically benefit from their little “christmas ornaments”. These days local news is basically dead and if they sign onto any Dem legislation they are going to have Laura Ingram and and the rest of the Fox ilk screaming to their constituents about it. Not only will they not get the benefit of any pork, they will get punished for it. I think they know this.
That is the main reason why things have changed. The incentives have changed. Today there is no incentive in the GOP other than to keep the right wing media ecosystem happy. How do you change that? Honestly, one answer people aren’t going to like is Jungle Primaries. They make folks immune from primary challenges from the extreme right or left. I’m convinced that is why my own Congresswoman Jaime Herrera Beutler voted for impeachment. Because of our Jungle primary in WA she is immune from GOP primary challenge.
cokane
I’ve actually found Tom Nichols to be better than Rubin as far as Never-Trump Republicans go. He was never connected to any politician or campaign, nor was he already an established columnist pre-Trump, so maybe it’s been easier to carve out space for him. I still find Rubin’s inability to acknowledge her own astonishing bad faith during the Obama years to be a non-starter.
patrick II
The Never Trumpers seem to think that Trump appeared in their party like in a bad dream. They have no idea how he got there or why he would pick the Republican party that they were part of. They just had the bad luck to be in a place where the ground was fertile for the poison fruit that Trump brought to flourish.
Baud
@ALurkSupreme:
Seconded.
Kathleen
@robmassing: To her credit Jennifer Rubin does not promulgate that but I agree that your observation applies to 99% of the Pundirattis. You could see it building towards the end of Trump’s term. They want their normal Rethuglcan Bully Daddies back!
Tractarian
The GOP “counteroffer” is just a watered-down, cheaper version of the Biden plan. It doesn’t contradict the Biden plan or make the Biden plan more complicated – it’s just a down payment on the Biden plan.
So why would Pelosi and Schumer not try to pass the “counteroffer'” immediately? Call their bluff. If Rs want the political benefit of being able to say “I supported COVID relief”, then make them vote on it.
If they vote for it and it passes, Biden gets his bipartisan achievement – and there’s no reason you couldn’t then come back in a couple of weeks and pass the rest of the Biden Plan through reconciliation.
If they don’t vote for it – if these Rs reject their own counterproposal – then their unseriousness will be obvious, and Dems will have the political space to pass the entire thing through reconciliation.
Another Scott
@Kent: You better not watch the BBC News coverage. Last night the presenter was showing full-screen graphics about the $27T national debt and the “giganitic cost and huge deficit” and so forth before introducing someone on Biden’s team to talk about it. “How can you afford to propose such a huge bill when Teh Deficit and Teh Debt are so huge???!” As Tony Jay says, it’s obvious that the Fox/Murdoch prion disease has taken hold of the BBC.
I see it in their COVID coverage and Brexit coverage (e.g. “While trade with the EU is many times as large as with Asia, the UK is now free to pursue future trade deals with the CPTPP…”). Rah Rah BoJo and UK Uber Alles!! :-/
Yes, the framing is infuriating. One has to be able to sort past that and move on.
Cheers,
Scott.
Kathleen
@Eolirin: Very profound point and sadly so very true
Cacti
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I actually think our Dems are getting the messaging on this just right.
These are extraordinary times. Better too much than not enough.
Besides, I think ordinary people are tired of hearing why they should get the absolute minimum, when the US government spares no expense for corporate and market bailouts.
Ruckus
@randy khan:
I disagree on $50K as an upper limit. In any big city rent will eat up a big portion of the take home of $50K. And we are not talking about a $1400 check a month, we are talking about just over $100/month. Even a $2000 check is less than $200/month. And how much will be spent trying to figure out who is worthy of less than $200/month? We, no trump and a republican senate gave $1400 last year but now it’s too much? The only reason I can see is that we’ve been asked/begged to stay the hell home for our own health and it has been wholesale laughed at and died for because most people have to work to eat and have a place to sleep. And how many have had to work anyway? The republican offer is $50/month. $1400/yr is laughable, but less than half that? Senators and representatives makes $174,000/yr, and work how many days for that? Most of us don’t make anywhere near that, we have to work and we have to stay home, how does that work? And sure there are about 650 billionaires in the US, about 11 million millionaire households, that’s about 3% of the population. And $60K is below the median family income of the US.
Cacti
This x 1 million
Kathleen
@hitless: Excellent point. Both of them have excorciated Republicans for their racism.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Kathleen:
And she’s very supportive of Biden and Denmocrats. More than those supposedly in our party.
there were a handful of Rose Tweeters– granted probably just a few amplified by the pointing and laughing of Khive twitter– calling for Bernie to be primaried from the left, for the double-plus-ungood sin of implying 1400 + 600 = 2000. Today there’s an oped from a high school teacher talking about Bernie’s white privilege, what I’m sure he thinks of as enlightened color-blindness. I can’t read it because of a paywall, but the headline made me think of this thread by Tom Nichols, the dyspeptic paleo-con who has a better grasp of the actual politics of trumpism than the bellowing, finger-pointy sage who has convinced so many white college kids (and those sexta- and septuagenarians who want to be 20 again) that he is the future of politics.
BlueGuitarist
Has there been any talk about names on checks? Trump seems to have gotten some benefit from that. Should the checks have the names Biden, Harris, Pelosi, Schumer?
Brachiator
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
The GOP has been doing obstruction since the days of Newt. And even now, they are looking for an advantage, translating appeals for unity into “give us what we want.”
I have absolutely no problem with Biden’s goals. Hell, I think that Biden should seek GOP input on elements of relief for corporations, small business and farmers. But I don’t think Biden should budge much on relief to individuals or the total size of the relief bill.
But apart from this, the GOP is still in thrall to Trump. And they still push the lie that they are the only legitimate, American and patriotic political party. They believe their own bullshit and prosper only because their base happily eats this shit up.
Biden has offered them a way back from their idiocies. It’s up to them.
p.a.
Well isn’t Rubin Jewish? It takes a special sort of person *cough* Miller *cough* Adelson to support the tRumpublican party after Charlottesville. (Not saying the anti-semitism doesn’t go further back, but C-ville a definite watershed moment. Also not saying there’s not evidence of anti-semitism across the American political spectrum.)
Geminid
@Kent: If there was a strong challenger from the right, couldn’t Herrera-Butler come in third in a jungle primary?
raven
@Ruckus: Let’s target income and zip codes!!!
Kathleen
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: The Never Whoever The Enemy Of The Day Is seem to be in full cannibal mode.
trollhattan
@Jerzy Russian:
I’m 100% in favor of a compromise whereby instead of some senators punching Ted Cruz in the face, all senators punch Ted Cruz in the face. Must not play favorites on the road to comity.
Another Scott
@Tractarian:
Because there’s no second bite at the apple.
The GOP would do the same thing they did after the House passed the HEROES Act on May 15. They would sit on it. “We need to see if it’s working. I don’t think we should give states that cannot manage their entitlements any more money. The economy is coming back, we can’t increase the debt any more…”
It’s an emergency. We need to pass the whole thing – with the “automatic stabilizers” – soon. Breaking it up is an invitation to nickel and dime it to death while things continue to get worse for far too many people. Make them vote on Biden’s plan and live with the consequences.
My $0.02.
Cheers,
Scott.
raven
@Kent: How you doin?
Cacti
@p.a.: No need to David Broder the issue.
One major party has members that believe forest fires are caused by secret Jewish space lasers. One doesn’t.
Jinchi
I think Rubin had the truest break with the Republican party over Trump. She rejected him immediately, unhesitatingly and totally and condemned anyone in the Republican party who didn’t stand up against him.
But she did it because he was a clear threat to her ideology, which involves America as the unchallenged leader on the world stage, particularly in defense of Israel. Being a led by a pawn of Putin, who is also for sale to the Saudis and in love with Kim Jong Un was clearly a bad thing. She’s not an evangelical and probably indifferent on social issues, but she’s no liberal.
wvng
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: “to some degree Biden is not negotiating with Collins et al, he’s negotiating with Machin, Sinema, and probably King and maybe Tester and…?” That is a really good point. It’s also helpful to recall that Obama was negotiating with more than ten conservative Dems to get to something they would pass, every bit as much as he had Republican obstruction. I vividly remember Senator Ben Nelson going on Maddow and saying he wouldn’t support any Stimulus larger than $800 billion. She asked him why, he said basically “just because”, she pressed for a reason, he dug in, and never went back on her show.
Doc Sardonic
@Tractarian: To be blunt……This sort of dumbassery and dipshitery is why we lose. This is not a time for hand wringing and timidity or looking for compromise, this is a time to be ruthless as hell and observe and follow the mantra of Conan, Crush your enemies, drive them before you.
Geminid
@patrick II: Some Never Trumpers will trace the elements that brought trump to the top of the party back decades. A good example is the Bearing Drift article by M.D. Russ, titled “Donald Trump is the Republican President.” Bearing Drift features writing from self-described conservatives. They cover national politics, but their main focus is the intra-party fight in the Virginia Republican party, which they’ve been losing.
Kent
Feeling good. Walked the dog this morning. All is well. 5 more weeks to go until I’m off all my restrictions. Kids are starting to lose interest in babying dad and doing all the chores around here. But it was good while it lasted!
raven
@Kent: Great, hang tough!
MomSense
@sdhays:
The problem with delaying the second dose is that the virus may become resistant to the vaccine. So the Tories aren’t just risking their citizens, they are putting the whole world at risk. Assholes.
patrick II
The never Trumpers are like the Dark Matter scifi characters who wake up from a deep sleep and forget that they were once bandits and mercenaries and the terrible things they have done. And when they do have an opportunity to regain their memories and understand what they once were, most turn the opportunity down, preferring not to know and live on as the people they have become.
Brachiator
@Jinchi:
Trump tilted so much towards Israel that he destabilized any hopes for real peace in the region. Right wing pundits were certain that Trump was giving Bibi the go sign to attack Iran.
And certainly Trump’s approach to world leadership was the assertion that only his (and Putin’s) desires mattered.
Kent
But it never works like that. For the 2022 primary, every single voter in the WA-2nd is going to be mailed the same primary mail-in ballot and there will be about 10 names on it. There will be Herrera Beutler, hopefully, some prominent Dem who has rounded up enough endorsements and support to make it into the top 2 from all the loyal Dem voters like teachers. And then another 8 or so throw away candidates from Green to Libertarian to crazy with no $$ or name recognition to lesser known Dems and GOPers with no chance. For Herrera Beutler to lose she would have to take 3rd or worse which simply isn’t ever going to happen based on name recognition alone, absent some major scandal.
There is a hard core GOP vote that is may be 20% of the district. Some of those are MAGA butt-hurt types who will try to rally around some purer local version of MAGA swill but they are a tiny fraction of the total electorate and Herrera Beutler will still get the majority of ordinary Chamber of Commerce type Republicans who rightly know she is their best chance to hold the seat. And Herrera Beutler will get huge numbers in the mushy middle soccer and PTA mom demographic who sort of like her because she is “independent” and gets things done. Herrera Beutler is very savvy about signing on as a co-signer to various innocuous bipartisan initiatives like extra $$ for children’s health, or improving family leave or childhood vaccinations or some such. So her press team is very good about getting her face into the local news saying “Herrera Beutler is co-sponsoring a bill that would improve family leave and making your family’s lives better”. No follow up about whether the bill actually passes. She gets the good press and moves on.
In a closed primary where she only has to face MAGA voters then sure, she could easily get beat. But not one in which every single voter in the district gets a ballot and most are mushy centrist types who vote out of civic duty between visits to the yoga studio and little Caitlyn’s ballet lesson. She owns that demographic.
sab
@OGLiberal: Stuart Stevens wrote a whole book apologizing for most of his career.
Tractarian
@Another Scott:
Why not? I understand reconciliation can only be used sparingly, but you only need 50 votes for it.
Is the idea that Joe Manchin would not be willing to vote for a second package?
Brachiator
@BlueGuitarist:
I didn’t hear about Trump’s name being on the second stimulus checks. But not totally sure about this.
OGLiberal
@Ruckus: No means testing. Just give the shit to everybody. Once you start means testing than the lunatics think that it’s a handout to the browns. So what if the ultra-rich get a few hundred dollars. The tax cut crap the GOP pulls gives them much more. Just make it simple and give everybody the same thing. That makes it popular and it just doesn’t cost that much more.
Kent
Reconciliation can be used once a year. This year is an exception in that they can use it twice but only because Congress didn’t pass a budget resolution in 2020 and they can basically roll over the unused reconciliation from 2020 that is still unused.
For 2020 the Biden plan is to use their 2 chances at reconciliation for (1) Covid relief, and (2) jobs/infrastructure. They can’t afford to waste one of those chances on some half-assed halfway measure if they aren’t planning to tank the filibuster.
Then they will have some sort of voting rights legislation coming down the pike. The John Lewis Act I think it will be called. For which they will need 60 votes or break the filibuster. That will be the big test to see if they can get 10 GOP Senators to cross the aisle for voting rights. And then again on immigration reform.
sab
@Kent: I heard that too so I switched to a golden oldies station. I like my local station ( which is as much aPRI as NPR) but jeez is NPR’ s national political coverage is appalling. It isn’t even bothsides. It’s just contextless Republican Lite.
The show was A1.
Tractarian
@Doc Sardonic:
I mean, I agree with you on principle. If it were me, I’d launch the filibuster into the sun, put a bag over Mitch’s head, and pass whatever can get passed with 50 votes.
And yet, the President based his campaign on his ability to work across party lines. To the extent he is able to fulfill that promise, he should, and it should accrue to his benefit.
These 10 Rs have given Biden an opportunity to get the best of both worlds: the entire relief package AND the veneer of bipartisanship.
What they’ve done with this “counteroffer” is admit that Biden has his priorities in the right place. They’re just skittish about the price tag. So you take what they give you. And then you take whatever else you can, however you can.
If it means telling Rs “We promise we won’t do more COVID relief in reconciliation”, then make that promise. Then, simply break that promise.
You can’t get sued for breach of contract for making phony commitments on the Senate floor.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Tractarian: can’t remember where I just read that reconciliation can be used three times in a year. It’s one of those rules that could be changed by fifty votes, but that you know Manchin et al will refuse to change.
OTOH, they can also vote, with fifty votes, that just about everything budget-related, can be packed into one reconciled bill. If, again, Manchin and Sinema and King and Tester and Feinstein and Carper and ….? are willing.
Jinchi
@Tractarian:
This was true during the Obama years, too. The Republicans don’t have ideas to solve real world problems. They only negotiate while Democrats have control in order to hobble the effort as much as possible.In 2008, Obama asked for $1.5T to solve the financial crisis. Susan Collins counteroffer was ‘How about half?’. The result was a recession that dragged out years longer than necessary.
Again this is literally what the Republicans did in 2008. Democrats ended up passing ‘bipartisan’, watered down bills without any Republican votes.The Senate is one tragic accident from slipping back into McConnell’s grip. Democrats may have a very narrow window to pass their agenda. There’s no time to play games with insincere negotiators.
OGLiberal
@p.a.: Yeah, I think some prominent Jewish folks remember how this script goes and they know it isn’t good for them. Or anybody. Autocrats/Narcissists will take down anybody and everybody. That’s what I will never get – do these people think that their luck will never run out? Somebody like Cruz was already targeted by Trump with vicious smears. Does he think that won’t happen again? Forget smears – folks like Trump without constraints will throw your ass in jail…or worse. Ernst Rohm was a huge reason for Hitler’s rise to power. His reward? A bullet in the head.
Tractarian
@Kent:
Exactly – the plan is to use reconciliation for COVID relief anyway. So why not call the 10 Rs’ bluff? Pass the skinny “counteroffer” with 60 votes, then pass the rest with 50.
That still leaves another reconciliation bill to address jobs and infrastructure later in the year.
cain
@Barbara:
Also he’s not black. Obama had a ton of restrictions – the GOP was ready to impeach him for anything.
Jinchi
@Tractarian:
Biden has been pretty explicit. He’s happy to work across party lines, but we’re in crisis and things need to get done. He’ll be judged on how well he deals with the pandemic and how fast he gets the economy running again. Success is the metric, not ‘unity’.
cokane
@Tractarian:
I think it’s good that Biden is trying to appear like he’s pushing for bipartisanship right now. In fact, I think letting Republicans air their half-measures will only end up making the full package, or something very close to it more popular. Don’t get me wrong, the clock is ticking, so he should only indulge this for a short while.
Tractarian
@Jinchi:
Right, but (as far as I can recall) reconciliation was never considered as a possibility for the early 2009 stimulus. It passed with 60 votes.
If Obama in 2009 directed Harry Reid to pass a stimulus through reconciliation, it could have been much bigger. Could have saved the House in 2010, even.
The point is not to accept half-measures. The point is to learn from the past. Use this opportunity to score “bipartisanship” points so you can have the political capital to do what you want later.
Geminid
@Kent: I can see how the open jungle primary empowers centrist independents to keep Herrera-Butler in place. It’s an interesting system. I think eight of the other nine Republican impeachers will face challenges in closed primaries. Ones like Cheney, Kinsinger, and Meijer may prevail, especially if they have multiple challengers. It seems like Tom Rice will have a particularly tough fight in his northeasern South Carolina district. The republicans down there are especially savage. But South Carolina has open primaries, so Rice may get bailed out by independents. Although some conservative independents are even more savage than republicans. Some Democrats may cross over to vote for Rice as the lesser of two evils. I would if I lived there. Tom Rice’s district includes Myrtle Beach and Florence.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Depending how you count, you can easily get that list up to twenty. Drives me crazy when I hear people say “Obama gave too much ground to Republicans!” I think, ‘the words Mary Landrieu and Kent Conrad mean nothing to you, do they?’
I’ve been seeing a lot of variants on “Democrats regret decisions made in 2009…” I’m pretty confident that Nelson, Conrad, Evan Bayh and Byron Dorgan have no regrets. I want someone to ask our new MSNBC friend Claire McCaskill if she still feels like bragging about cutting out “the silly stuff”, as she did on this new-fangled thing called twitter in ’09.
randy khan
@Another Scott:
I understand the disagreement, but from a practical perspective, if you could get 10 votes by cutting the package by, oh, $50 billion of money going to people who are very unlikely to need it, I’d go for it. To be honest, I think the likelihood that deal happens even if offered is really close to zero, but as the Pod Save America guys say, you want to be caught trying to be bipartisan.
What I wouldn’t do, and where I think we’re in total agreement, is entertain a bunch of proposed changes and haggle over them for weeks. I’ve said this elsewhere, but the approach should be to demand specific things Republicans want changed, say yes or no to those proposals (heck, there might be something good, you never know), and tell them they can vote for it or not. The package as a whole is wildly popular (74% approval in one poll I saw, with nearly 50% strong approval), and it covers a lot of what we need, so the Biden Administration shouldn’t be willing to give up much to get Republican support.
Kent
@Geminid: One of the other 8 is also a WA congressman so has the same jungle primary. But the other 7, yes. It depends on how deep red their districts are as to whether the chamber of commerce types will want to risk losing the seat to a Dem vis a vis a MAGA primary challenge.
randy khan
@Ruckus: $50K as an upper limit is ridiculous, particularly when you consider that, as I mentioned, it’s based on 2019 tax returns. As I said, I’d entertain some modest reduction of the upper limit, but cutting it by 2/3 would be suicide.
Kent
@Tractarian: Exactly. How much bipartisanship and negotiation did the GOP do with their signature reconciliation tax cuts in 2017? They not only didn’t seek any Dem votes, they didn’t even hold any committee hearings where Dems were even allowed to weigh in. No half measures for them. They went full bore whole hog with no reservations.
Kent
Because with the congressional calendar and attention spans you also only get so many cracks at major legislation. The 3 weeks it would take to round up 60 votes for some half measure are 3 weeks that they will never get back. Every new event changes the landscape for the next. And makes the next package so much less likely. That is the whole point behind “must pass” legislation. It if isn’t “must pass” it often ends up being “doesn’t pass”.
Geminid
@Kent: It is interesting that Washington has a jungle primary system and that two of it’s three Republican representatives were among the only ten nationwide who voted to impeach. Probably not a coincidence.
Jinchi
This is our point of disagreement. There are no “bipartisanship points” and there is no “political capital”.
In 2008, Obama had 60 votes in the Senate and 257 seats in the House and the opportunity for major progress. He nearly lost it all in pursuit of bipartisanship. The only reason we talk about passing bills by reconciliation and eliminating the filibuster, today, is because Democrats learned from those mistakes.
Republicans will have many opportunities to join in bipartisan deals over the next 4 years. Biden needs this one to pass.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
The words Mary Landrieu and Kent Conrad mean nothing to you, do they? Blanche Lincoln, Mark Pryor. Byron Dorgan, Max Baucus, Evan Bayh, Joe Lieberman, Jim Webb, Ben Nelson, Tim Johnson, Bill Nelson, Ben Nelson, Mark Begich, Kay Hagan, Robert Byrd, Tom Carper. A couple of very nervous cats– or Blue Dogs– from then far-less blue states like Virginia and Colorado. Senate “institutionalists” like Feinstein, Leahy and Levin. Arlen Specter still a Republican. Al Franken still in court with Norm Coleman.
Tell me more about Obama “directing” Harry Reid. Show me how you got to fifty, without getting into fantasies about LBJ pissing in the Oval Office bathroom with the door open while he yelled at assembled cowering Senators.
My own recollection is that the $800B figure was set by Pelosi, who told the White House early on that anything more would spook her own Blue Dogs, who were reeling from the passage of the bank bail-out and who didn’t understand, any more than their constituents, the difference between stimulus and a bail-out. Most people don’t, and didn’t, read Paul Krugman twice a week. I guess Obama should have “directed” the best vote wrangler in a generation to tell Ike Skelton and Melissa Bean to fuck off?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Jinchi:
See above.
also, Obama wasn’t President in 2008, and the super-majority lasted less than six months, and even then Byrd and Kennedy were often absent due to health problems. And when they were there, see above.
Doc Sardonic
@Tractarian: Yes he did and he is trying to work across party lines. However, I was 13 when Joe was first elected to the Senate (some high order trigonometry here) so he served 36 years in the Senate and 8 as VP, so this ain’t his first trip to Strip club. He knows the Republicans aren’t going to do anything in good faith, so he can say I tried but and then do what is necessary.
TriassicSands
Many commenters at the Post seemed to fall in love with the “Never Trump” version of Jennifer Rubin. She frequently made critical statements about the Republican Party and those not familiar with her history were seduced. But lurking in the background of Ms. Rubin’s columns always seemed to be a desire on her part to return to the GOP of 2015 — pre-Trump — without any recognition that that was the party that nominated Trump and promptly fell in line behind the most incompetent and corrupt president in our history.
She would repeatedly argue that if only the Republicans would do x, y, or z then the party could rejoin the civilized world of responsible governance. There was no recognition of the steady decline of the party at least as far back as Gingrich in ’94 or the role she played in supporting the ever-more-corrupt party, until Trump appeared. She spoke of the “reality based” wing of the GOP, but never really accepted that no more than a tiny handful of senators or representatives could plausibly be included in such a “wing¹,” and of those men and women the most that could be expected was deep “concern” before voting with Trump and McConnell. There were too few to form the core of a reformed GOP.
The pattern of GOP bipartisanship can be seen in the lead up to the ACA. Argue for more and more concessions weakening the legislation and once those are in place refuse to vote for the bill. Today, it can be seen in one of the group of ten’s members, Senator Cassidy of Louisiana. In the spirit of compromise and bipartisanship he went on Fox News² and criticized Biden for only wanting the appearance of bipartisanship since the president didn’t consult with any Republicans in drawing up the relief package.
¹ It’s more a feather or two than a wing.
² The primary Republican media tool for lies, conspiracy theories, and dis- and misinformation.
Starboard Tack
@MattF:
Had a good laugh to start the day. Thanks.
Starboard Tack
@Baud:
Depends on the cousin.
Jinchi
2009, I stand corrected – I’m still working on remembering this is 2021, too.
The point is – Obama had 60 votes for 6 months. Biden has had 50 votes for 10 days. Harry Reid was still majority leader after Kennedy’s seat was lost. There is no guarantee Biden will get six months with Kamala Harris in a position to break ties. If he can pass critical legislation by reconciliation, he should do it while he can. Because the day he loses his majority is the day the ‘bipartisan’ deals vanish and his only chance at building his numbers in Congress next election is if he succeeds now.
Fair Economist
@p.a.: The LP includes the (disturbingly few) conservative Republicans who recognize that, even for conservatives with power, fascist rule is worse *for them* than center-left democratic rule. They won’t turn on us until Trumpism is defeated within the Republican party. If that turns out to be “not for the indefinite future” the LP will become a Conservadem group.
The truly disturbing part is how few Republicans either don’t understand that a low tax bill does you no good if your doorknob gets Novichoked, or are actually content with that tradeoff.
Ruckus
@Another Scott:
This. All of the talk on the right is how to make points and how to spend less so there is more to steal.
danielx
@Doc Sardonic:
This. And it would be good if he slips in “go pound sand” somewhere in there.
Starboard Tack
@patrick II:
Republicans left their party on the street with the motor running and the doors unlocked. Trump just drove it away.
Ken
I may be mis-remembering, but weren’t there a few cases where they scheduled committee meetings and didn’t tell the Democrats on the committee?
If so, may I suggest the impeachment vote as a suitable time for turnabout-is-fair-play? “Oh, sorry, we moved the vote to yesterday. He was convicted, 50 to 0.”
Tractarian
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Fair enough. I’m not second-guessing Obama or Reid. I know Blue Dogs were a major impediment back then. I’m still confident that more stimulus could have passed if the goal was 50 senate votes rather than 60.
Anyway, the situation today is not analogous. As you so calmly and politely illustrate, the Dem caucus was not exactly united in 2009. It is united today.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Jinchi:
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Tractarian:
of course you were. I’m glad you recognize your comment was absurd, but pretending you didn’t make it… less than honest.
Ruckus
@Tractarian:
You’ve accepted that what they give you is not a limit but a talking point. And that’s not how it works. The politician goes back to his district/state and tells everyone that he limited the relief bill to only 800 billion. Otherwise it would have been 2 1/2 times that. He just saved their house. It is of course bullshit but most people hear numbers like that and they freak out. The right has been using this argument and style for decades. Most people don’t have the ability to see the big picture, because they are too involved in day to day of their own lives. It’s why faux news is the way it is, tart up the bullshit and pour it on, 24 hrs a day so that people don’t hear any other side of anything. The other news outlets do not want to be scooped so they mostly go along in some fashion, also the owners want to be as rich and powerful as ruppert and family and none of them are normal working folk, they all have a rather decent salary at the very least.
Tractarian
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Have Manchin or Sinema expressed their opinion on the Biden COVID Plan, or on passing it by reconciliation?
I know they don’t want to scrap the filibuster, but I’m not talking about that. I’m talking about using current rules to enact policy. Are they on board with the policy or not?
Starboard Tack
@Tractarian:
@Another Scott:
Git her done. Move on.
Ruckus
@OGLiberal:
I didn’t make myself clear. I am in full agreement with you, the numbers of people that would theoretically not need the money or be able to use it is maybe 10% of us at most. It costs more to segregate out the ones to whom $1400 isn’t significant. My point is that we should just pay everyone and quit dicking around acting as if you give a shit about the money. For those that really, really need it, it isn’t enough. For those who don’t need it, most of them will spend it. The economy gains at a far less cost and damage to the country than a fucking tax cut for the fucking wealthy.
Tractarian
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
It makes me sleep well at night to know there are people like you out there policing “honesty” on the internet. Keep up the good work.
By the way, if Obama directed Reid to pass something with 50 votes, he would have gotten more stimulus. I don’t hear you disagreeing on that.
Geminid
@Starboard Tack: Or, as M.D. Russ put it in the Bearing Drift article I referenced above, “Donald Trump did not hijack the Republican Party…he just answered the casting call.”
Mike S (Now with a Democratic Congressperson!)
@Brachiator: Drumpf’s named was on our 2nd check in Dec.
Ken
And in any case, Republicans arguing that rich people shouldn’t get stimulus payments, after voting for the 2018 tax cut, is risible.
Jinchi
I see we’re descending into BS arguments on this site again, but as I’m sure you’re aware, after Scott Brown’s win Democrats were seriously reconsidering passing Obamacare at all.
Democrats were about to throw out historic health care legislation because they only had 59 Democrats in the Senate. They smartly decided to push it through on a party line vote, but it was hardly a done deal.
This is what Biden has to avoid. He has the votes now to pass his covid relief package. There is no need to get sidetracked chasing bipartisan deals that may vanish into the ether. To their credit, he and the Democrats seem to have learned this lesson.
Ruckus
@Mike S (Now with a Democratic Congressperson!):
You got a second check in December? The $600? Because I’ve only received one payment, $1200 back in April.
Ruckus
@Ken:
Yes. Well except you used way too nice of language….
Chetan Murthy
4SMM is spot-on: Rubin was a stalwart ally when the enemy was Trump. But even now, EVEN NOW when his Party still controls the GOP, she’s starting to defect. I’m disappointed, and honestly, it’s time to write her a letter to that effect. Why am I disappointed? I read her column thru to the end.
She has forgotten that our Republic isn’t yet out of danger; and she’s already going back to business-as-usual.
patroclus
@Tractarian: Pursuant to the Budget Act of 1974, reconciliation is the process whereby the budget resolution passed by Congress in April/May of each year is reconciled with the appropriations/finance legislation passed by Congress after that (and prior to 9/30 – the end of the fiscal year). Under Republicans, no budget resolution is actually passed and, often, no appropriations bills are either, therefore requiring a continuing resolution, which merely continues funding at pre-authorized levels. It is impossible for a President to instruct a Senator to use reconciliation in any other fashion. if Obama had tried in 2009, he would have had to await getting a stimulus bill until all of that had been passed – a delay of about 6-9 months (and assuming that a budget resolution and the appropriations bills would have been passed on time). Why would Obama have wanted to wait?
This year, because the Republicans didn’t pass a budget resolution or many of the appropriations bills, we are currently under a CR and have the opportunity to use reconciliation now. And we can use it again after a budget resolution is passed and appropriations bills or passed – or, if not passed, then after 9/30 and an expected CR.
Do you just not know this? Why do you think Obama could have just instructed Reid to ignore the Budget Act of 1974 and the entire process? I’m not following your argument at all.
Bill Arnold
@randy khan:
Means testing to avoid giving something to people upper middle class and above saves very little, in return for political gain for Republicans, and does end up hurting some people.
(My last tax return, for 2019, shows a lower-upper-middle class. income. It does not reflect having very little income in 2020. Many millions of Americans were under-employed or unemployed in 2020.)
Mike S (Now with a Democratic Congressperson!)
@Ruckus: Yes a $660/person check in Dec. I understand some peopp
le got debit cards and some people will have to file their 2020 taxes to get it.
Bill Arnold
@Ruckus:
Hah. I’ve gotten no stimulus payments. No clue why or how to find out why.
Mike S (Now with a Democratic Congressperson!)
@Bill Arnold: Ask the IRS. (I’m not kidding)
WaterGirl
@Bill Arnold: During the first round, there was a website you could go to to find out if you were getting a the money and make sure they have you set up for direct deposit.
Did you ever look at that site to see if you were eligible to get the money?
I no longer have the website, but several people here supplied the URL when I asked about it at the time, so someone may have it
edit: Okay, a quick google gave me the link:
IRS link about the second round payments
WaterGirl
@Ruckus:
IRS link about the second round payments
cokane
@Jinchi:
I don’t see how this is getting “sidetracked”. Also, passing legislation is not just Biden’s call. It requires getting every single Democrat to say yes. Lots of them have very shrewd electoral reasons to appear on the side of moderation, bipartisanship.
Again, I don’t think anything is being lost here. I think entertaining a Republican proposal, letting the stark difference stew in the public’s mind for a few days is a total win. This isn’t Obamacare where you can conjure up death panels. I mean, Republicans are literally proposing cutting the universal checks in half. That’s an easy win for Democrats! Let this one sit in debate for a little while.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Jinchi:
from the very strong implication in your initial post that Obama didn’t accomplish anything major, to your extraordinarily I’ll say mis-remembered (cause like Biden I’m all about unity and getting along) notions about the Senate in Obama’s first two years, you were doing one hell of an impersonation of a 19 YO rose-tweeter
I remember. Then they did. What does that have to do with… anything we’ve been discussing ?
catclub
@Ransom:
 
wow. Replaced by an alien?
OGLiberal
@Ruckus: And I am in full agreement with you. I was basically seconding what you first said.
catclub
@Ruckus:
Or tax it on the back end for those with actual high incomes in 2020.
(or 2021)
Gvg
J R in WV
@Mike S (Now with a Democratic Congressperson!):
Call your congressperson… over 45 years ago I got a very nasty letter from the justice department, seeking repayment of an overpayment the USN disbursed to me upon discharge, after I told the discharge clerk that check was too big.
He asked me “Do you want to get out today?” and I said yes. 9 months later, after someone recomputed my leave status at time of discharge, someone realized that just as I said, the severance check was too big. So Sad… that money was spent! All $900, which was a lot of money in the mid-1970s when buying your first house.
I called our Democratic congressman, whose staff told me who to write and what to say, and it went away. I feel sure an operational congressional staff can find out who stole your check.
Miss Bianca
@OGLiberal:
That’s the argument Kay always makes about education programs like free prekindergarten classes. Don’t means-test it, give it to everyone, and then everyone will support it. I think she’s right.
Ruckus
@Bill Arnold:
Ouch