I don’t have Adam’s knowledge or expertise as to what is going on in Israel/Palestine, but I do understand naked aggression and bloodlust when I see it. And I also know that this sort of things just magically appears to happen every time Netanyahu feels weak, as he would literally burn the entire Middle East to the ground and then brag about it in front of Republicans in the House in order to stay in power. I’d like to think at some point the international community will finally have enough, but I am not hopeful. Regardless, this can not go on:
The worst violence between Israelis and Palestinians in seven years intensified on Saturday, as an Israeli airstrike destroyed a prominent high-rise building in Gaza City that housed media outlets including The Associated Press and Al Jazeera.
The Israel Defense Forces said its fighter jets struck the media tower because it also contained military assets belonging to Hamas. The I.D.F. said it had provided advance warning to civilians in the building to allow evacuation.
The attack followed an Israeli airstrike overnight that killed at least 10 members of an extended family in a refugee camp in Gaza, after which Hamas militants aimed another round of rockets at Tel Aviv.
These atrocities have to stop.
Zzyzx
There’s a typo there. I think you meant “feels weak” not “week,” even if this seems to happen weekly.
Zzyzx
And yeah, I don’t pretend to have any solution for the Mideast so noticing a typo is the best I can do while procrastinating doing my run.
Raoul Paste
I’m paraphrasing Trevor Noah on the daily show, but he said that he doesn’t understand the conflict but the contrast in the numbers of dead on each side are striking
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
The worst part is the roving bands of thugs beating up/killing any Palestinians/Arabs they come across in the streets
SiubhanDuinne
I’m far from the first person to have made this observation, but Israel always reminds me of the abused child that grows up to be an even worse abuser.
Parfigliano
@SiubhanDuinne: Israel learned the wrong lesson from the Nazi.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@SiubhanDuinne:
It’s like Apartheid South Africa except on steroids. I’m angry so many American politicians were willing to neuter BDS
Sam
We don’t owe these people anything, including our attention. They need to straighten out their own house. Yes, I am including anyone who lives in the area. Benign neglect ought to be the rule of the day.
Joe Falco
Statement from AP president: https://blog.ap.org/announcements/ap-statement-on-destruction-of-gaza-bureau?utm_medium=AP_CorpComm&utm_campaign=SocialFlow&utm_source=Twitter
Just as Netanyahu intended.
New Deal democrat
About 25 years ago, I came to the realization that Israel and Palestine was the same as “cowboys and Indians,” with all that implied, and since then I have never had a problem understanding the conflict at all.
If a US President were to utter what would be regarded as a general nostrum for any other conflict, like “I want justice for the Israelis, and justice for the Palestinians too,” s/he would be utterly eviscerated by both parties. When this changes, so will the facts on the ground in the near east.
PeakVT
They won’t until the United States defunds Israel. Nor will the ongoing program of ethnic cleansing that is the root of the problem.
West of the Rockies
@Raoul Paste:
And are they all mostly civilians? It looks like rockets are being aimed just towards general targets. “Let’s see, one there, maybe one there…”
debbie
I feel nothing but disgust for Israel.
Josie
I feel helpless in the face of so much hatred and destruction. Is there anything one person can do to encourage a solution?
debbie
@Raoul Paste:
They (the numbers) always are, aren’t they? Look at the videos and tell me this is a proportional response. Who knew so many children were in Hamas? Meanwhile, a blind eye toward the Israeli lynch mobs roaming the area.
Monstrous.
germy
Another Scott
Indyk at Foreign Affairs:
Understanding that there is no single objective truth, not being an expert, and recognizing the potential bias in this article, I think he’s mostly right. We cannot impose a solution. It sucks for the people there, but they have to figure out a path forward. If they want to continue to let Hamas and Bibi prop each other up, then there’s nothing much the US can do about it.
Yes, Biden should make the usual noises about stopping the violence and safety and security, and provide aid to the people in a way that bypasses the malefactors (if possible), but otherwise he should say – “You’ve got Tony Blinken’s number – give him a call when you want to talk.”
I do think that Psaki dodging the question about when/if the US would restock Israel’s war machine was a good one.
I disagree. I think Psaki was smart in not saying more. Make Bibi sweat a little and not assume that the US will always and forever back him up no matter what he does (which is how the press would regard any “reasonable request” from him. “You said that Bibi would get what he needs, it’s been 3 whole days why are you still letting Israel burn with the terrorists at the door??!!!” :-/ )
FWIW.
Cheers,
Scott.
J R in WV
I agree totally with Cole, and with Subaru-Dianne as well. Abused child who grew up an abuser. Hard to believe, but all too true today, and so obvious to anyone watching.
Kelly
Same. I once tried to explain the Arab-Israeli conflict in those terms to a right wing cousin. Failed since I couldn’t even get him to recognize our crimes against the Indians.
The Moar You Know
There is nothing that America can or should do, and frankly if we just walked away and washed our hands of the entire situation nothing would change. So we should.
J R in WV
Cole, thanx for fixing the “weak” typo; misspelling weak makes you look week, mentally. ;~)
RobertDSC-iPhone 8
This is the reason I said to a Gallup poll question that Israel is the biggest threat to the US.
Still feel that way.
germy
Ohio Mom
I’ve said it before — American organized liberal Judaism will one day wake up and figure out their membership rolls shrunk in good part due to disgust with Israel.
Someone once asked me what I was looking for in a synagogue. I answered, “A congregation that observes Rachel Cory’s yahrzeit.” I will give credit to the person who asked the question, she smiled ruefully and said, “You are right, there is no synagogue for you.”
CaseyL
I would be perfectly happy if the US just plain walked away from the Mid-East altogether. Out, out, out. Let them burn one another to the ground if they want.
Tony Jay
It’s obscene, has been for decades, and it’ll stay that way as long as political strategists see it as a wedge issue to be avoided or exploited with no interest in the cost in human lives.
Case in point, there are demonstrations taking place in cities all across the UK today calling for the British Government to stop supporting Israel’s genocidal terror campaign, but it won’t shift the Tories one inch. He’ll, they’ll be laughing their arses off at the stupid ‘woke warriors’ and swamping social media with racist posts telling their Base how this just proves that ‘The Left’ supports Brown Terrorism.
And even more gutting than that, I can state for a fact that the only interest the Labour Opposition will show in the demos will revolve around Party staffers scouring the social media posts of members and supporters who attend, looking for something they can hang an accusation of anti-Semitism on to get another tranche of dirty lefties suspended and (fingers crossed) expelled, because that’s what ‘moderate centrism’ means in the modern Labour Party.
It’s vile all the way down.
Kent
Am I the only one who has utter fatigue with the Israeli/Palestinian conflict? I’m in my late 50s and it has been going on since before I was born.
There is more fighting and killing going on in half a dozen places right now than Israel and Gaza. Yemen, Afghanistan, Myanmar, Nigeria, etc. etc. The US is complicit in some of those conflicts too. Yet every time something stirs up in Israel we get breathless blanket 24/7 coverage.
I’ve come to conclude that nothing is ever going to change there until either: (1) weapons technology advances to the point that conflict is obsolete, or (2) climate change makes the whole region uninhabitable.
Kent
Just like the evangelical fundies are finding that their ranks are atrophying the young due to their MAGA racism and anti-LGBT obsessions. I’m a HS teacher and the two issue that seem to most drive young evangelicals away from their parent’s faith are racism and the anti-LGBT prejudice.
germy
Both sides
Brachiator
@PeakVT:
These atrocities have to stop.
Funny how Hamas never seems to run out of rockets. What the United States does is not the only problem here.
Kent
It really is a “both sides” issue. Not so much individual Israeli and Palestinian citizens, the majority of whom probably don’t want this at all. But a “both sides” issue in the sense that foreign actors on both sides are adding fuel to the fire. The US (and apparently the UK) with their support for Israel. And Iran and probably others like Russia who are supporting Hamas and other terror groups in the region.
Brachiator
@Kent:
Within my lifetime there have been perpetual conflicts on the island of Ireland, on Cyprus, in South Africa, in Sri Lanka (one of the places where suicide bombers were born), and in Israel.
The situation in South Africa was resolved peacefully. The Good Friday Agreement has brought some stability to Northern Ireland.
In Sri Lanka, the most recent civil war lasted from 1983 to 2009, and ended up with the Tamils being thoroughly defeated and subject to brutal oppression. The world largely did not care. The situation has never been on most American liberals’ radar because we only get upset about places where there is some US involvement.
Nigeria? Myanmar? US involvement?
Even Yemen is largely a Saudi, maybe Russian shit show, with lesser US involvement.
Mo Salad
Can’t wait for when India nukes Pakistan a week before the next election if Modi sees that he’s losing. //
Original Lee
I think the intractable problem is that there are too many sides. I think the vast majority in the region just want to be able to live their lives without having to worry about being blown to bits or beaten up or harassed just for existing. Food on the table, water in the taps, roof overhead, electricity in the outlets, gainful employment, going to and from the market or to work or to worship without hassle or dread. Maybe the only way to reach that state of affairs is radical change in how the decisions are made. Maybe there needs to be a random selection of citizens to serve a week or two, repeat and replace, in a negotiating council to hammer out how to make sure everyone gets the basics in peace. Their current leaders have broken the system so badly I don’t see how anything good can arise from repeating the same old thing over and over.
germy
More local news:
“It’s The Insurrection, Charlie Brown”
Adam L Silverman
I didn’t have it in me to do an update post last night, I’ll try to do one before the end of the weekend.
James E Powell
@New Deal democrat:
Carter did and he was. Since 1920, Carter was the only Democrat to get less than 50% of the Jewish vote.
Betty Cracker
@Another Scott:
This.
J R in WV
@Ohio Mom:
May I ask for further education on your “Rachel Cory’s yahrzeit” remark? Google was no help, and while I can surmise the meaning from your discussion, I would like to know precisely what Ms Cory said and what a yahrzeit is, technically.
Thanks in advance!
Adam L Silverman
@Raoul Paste: Regardless of who started or did what when or who had what capacities and capabilities in the past, the power imbalance, the asymmetry between what Israel can do to the Palestinians and what the Palestinians can do to the Israelis gets larger and larger every time one of these confrontations escalates. This asymmetry places a greater burden on Israel to be the responsible actor. To step up and take risks to settle the dispute in as just and equitable manner as possible that it would have been unreasonable to ask Israel to take in 56 or 67 or 73 or even, perhaps in the 1990s.
Cameron
What happened to that ‘rules-based order’ the US has been lecturing the Chinese about? Has George Stephanopoulos asked President Biden if ‘Bibi is a killer’ yet? No, apparently our government is ‘comfortable’ with what’s going down. Oh, well. Doesn’t affect me personally, so fuck it.
topclimber
@Brachiator: One thing Biden might do is release a statement that besides the usual thoughts and prayers for the dead and injured, we fear the bloodshed may hurt Israel’s very democracy.
Clearly, the fighting has made any possible coalition between Benny-hating rightists and Arabs impossible. This hurts the Democratic process. The US has always stood with the Democracy of Israel. This means not just US guns but US advice. Today, we urge caution, and certainly nothing that inflame age-old issues.
We need to bounce Benny and restore a diplomatic relationship with Iran if we are to have any hope that one day the city of Jerusalem will not see blood in the streets.
BC in Illinois
@J R in WV:
Rachel Corrie
CaseyL
@J R in WV: I can’t answer that completely, but IIRC Rachel Cory was a pro-Palestinian activist protesting Israel bulldozing a settlement, who was crushed to death when an Israeli tank ran over her. (This has to be, like, 20 (?) years ago now.)
Adam L Silverman
@SiubhanDuinne: @Parfigliano: There is a political science axiom that I learned as an undergrad at Emory from my polisci professor. Whose parents, just happened to be Holocaust survivors because they were able to get out of Vichy France before they could be sent to the camps. The axiom is that if you treat a group of people despotically and tyrannically and then free them, even if they set up a liberal democratic state, they tend to eventually establish despotic and tyrannical systems.
In criminology and sociology we call this differential social organization. Specifically that certain societies or subcultures are not malorganized, rather they are differentially organized to both reflect the reality of the social, political, and economic conditions the people in them have to live with and to allow them to survive. Israel is a textbook example.
germy
@J R in WV:
Rachel Corrie. Peace activist who was killed.
Joey Maloney
@Adam L Silverman: And that means Bibi has to go. (Needless to say, necessary but not sufficient.) But isn’t it interesting that we were on the brink of forming a government that for the first time in forever didn’t include Netanyahu when BY A COMPLETE COINCIDENCE the Israeli cops escalated provocations in Jerusalem which led to Hamas popping off, which led to right-wing riots in the mixed towns, which led to Arab counter-riots, which led to Bibi sending in the cops with orders to break heads, which led to Ra’am withdrawing from coalition talks, which torpedos the non-Bibi coalition and leaves Netanyahu still in power and presenting himself as the only man who can stop Hamas.
BY A COMPLETE COINCIDENCE.
Another Scott
@J R in WV: yahrzeit = year-
daytime = birthday.HTH.
[eta:] Whoops – see #49 below.
Cheers,
Scott.
Joey Maloney
@Another Scott: Well, actually…it’s the anniversary of death, not birth. As calculated by the Jewish calendar.
laura
I’d be pissed off if someone waltz up and evicted me from my home when the law does not prohibit it and provides an appeal process only for the ones who stole my home. The settlements are a visible statement that refutes the concept of a two state solution. Bibi N is a war mongering awful man who has been able to have power without accountability.
shit’s fucked up and bullshit.
CaseyL
@Adam L Silverman: But Israel gets more awful the further away we get in time from the Holocaust.
I think one turning point was Israel’s annexing the West Bank after the 6-Day War. That gave life to the fundamentalist RW talking about a “Greater Israel.”
Another turning point was the huge influx of Russian Jews, who were apparently all RWers, and who *definitely* had the “abusers learn to abuse” lesson down pat.
And, finally, the death knell to a peaceful settlement was the assassination of Yitzak Rabin by the RW mob – who proceeded to successfully use his murder to radicalize even more RW lunatics. (Ushering in Ariel Sharon and Netanyahu.)
Three major inflection points, all of which accelerated the vector to rule by RW fundamenalist religious nuts (and those who use them to gain power).
Matt McIrvin
@Kelly: I think “cowboys and Indians” is exactly how the US right conceptualizes the whole thing and it’s why they’ll always support anything Israel does to the Palestinians. Even when they’re antisemites in every other context, most of them see the Israelis as the civilized pioneers hemmed in by howling man-beasts, like in an ancient and racist Western.
Another Scott
@Joey Maloney: Thanks. :-)
Cheers,
Scott.
New Deal democrat
@Betty Cracker: A change in US policy may not be sufficient for Mideast peace, but it is absolutely necessary (and won’t happen anytime soon ).
Matt McIrvin
@CaseyL: I remember the American warbloggers gloating about it. A presentiment of things to come.
Adam L Silverman
@Tony Jay: And what’s equally bad, and this is NOT an indictment of people in England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland or Ireland, is that just as will be the case across the channel in continental Europe, a lot of the demonstrations will be centered at synagogues. Because Bibi has gone out of his way to conflate Israeli with Jewish. So when Germans or Brits or French citizens who are upset with Israeli actions decide they need to demonstrate, while those in their country’s capitols who can get to the Israeli embassy will demonstrate their, everyone else goes and demonstrates in front of the local synagogue.
This was a calculated play by Bibi. By conflating the two it increases the likelihood of anti-Jewish, as in actual anti-Semitic, actions. Which then allows him to come out and state that the only place Jews can be safe is in Israel because where they currently reside they will not allowed to be English whose religion is Jewish or French whose religion is Jewish, etc. So they must move to Israel where Bibi can protect them. Israel has a demographic problem among younger Jewish Israelis. Those that can get out do. This is his partial solution to the problem.
Kent
I’m speaking more broadly than just official US foreign policy. In other words, US business and commercial interests as well.
Nigeria is a mess, partly due to US oil companies.
Myanmar’s military stays in power largely due to a vast network of business interests, many of them linked to western and US companies: https://www.hrw.org/news/2021/02/03/your-business-funding-myanmar-military-abuses#
And the Saudi’s in Yemen are as much US proxies as the Israelis are in Gaza. We don’t have the same sort of breathless coverage of Saudi bombing in Yemen that we do of Israeli bombing in Gaza even though they are both using US-supplied bombs.
Matt McIrvin
@Adam L Silverman: It’s always seemed to me like Europeans have a much harder time than Americans at separating grievances against Israel from grievances against Jews. Maybe just because there aren’t as many Jews there.
Adam L Silverman
@J R in WV: A yarzheit is a Jewish anniversary remembrance for the dead.
Rachel Corrie was a US college student who went to the West Bank – if I’m recalling correctly – to protest Israeli treatment of the Palestinians. She was run over by a soldier – also if I’m recalling correctly – driving a bulldozer or a grader while protesting and crushed to death.
Adam L Silverman
@CaseyL: Bibi was responsible for creating the stochastic environment that led to Rabin’s assassination. He held campaign rallies with huge posters of Rabin’s face superimposed on Arafat’s body.
topclimber
@Joey Maloney: Bibi has been a one-state solution guy from Day 1.
OK, then Bubbi. How about we go that route? There is a good chance a Jewish-Arab electoral alliance would insure Arab rights in a stable Greater Israel than anything the 2-state solution will ever deliver.
Kent
Yesterday while driving to the clinic here in Vancouver WA I was passed by a MAGA truck flying FOUR giant flags from the back. One was the US flag, two were bastardized US flags with “don’t tread on me” and pro-gun messages on them. And the fourth was an Israeli flag. I sped up to look at the driver out of curiosity. He was your ordinary fat MAGA redneck white guy with a beard.
It was the first time I have seen Israeli flags being flown by MAGAts.
Matt
Today’s NYT, if they’d been in Warsaw on April 19th 1943: “Violence between the German government and terrorists intensified today”
Adam L Silverman
@Matt McIrvin: That’s part of it.
Adam L Silverman
I’m going to go do leg day. It’s less painful than thinking about this stuff.
CaseyL
@Adam L Silverman: Agreed! – But it was the response to Rabin’s assassination that floored me: empowering and electing the very people who had caused those conditions. It would be as if the US elected John Wilkes Booth (or maybe Dr. Mudd) as President after Lincoln’s assassination.
That’s why I call it a(nother) turning point.
Ohio Mom
JR in WV:
“Yahrzeit” is the anniversary of a loved one’s death — the public observance is simply adding their name to the list of people being remembered in that week’s regular service with the reciting of the Mourner’s Kaddish (prayer).
The Kaddish is toward the end of the regular worship service; the Rabbi (or whoever is leading the service, any adult is eligible for this role) announces the names of who is being remembered that week, the mourners (and anyone else inspired to do so) say the prayer — which praises God but does not mention the dead — and that’s it.
Rachel Corrie (misspelled her name the first time, which is why you couldn’t google it) was a young Protestant American woman who got bulldozed to death in 2003 by the Israeli army while protesting on behalf of Palestinians in the Gaza Strip.
There was a fair amount of controversy over whether she was killed on purpose or accidentally, but to mind, she was trying to make Israel live up to its moral obligations (to paraphrase Langston Hughes, Let Israel be Israel again), and the Jewish per owe her thanks. The least we can do is keep her name alive.
topclimber
@CaseyL: I remember either Carter or Clinton had a deal in the works that was awaiting Yasir Arafat’s final OK. He was dithering and the conventional wisdom was that he couldn’t really deliver his people. Or that he lacked the guts to take the plunge.
Well, that’s one of those tipping points that ended real fast. Sharon made a provocative visit to the Temple Mount and went home with a new intifada. End of negotiations!
I guess Bibi was paying attention. It is and old play but one that will keep working unless we help change the rules.
WaterGirl
Israel will never be a responsible actor, until or unless they have no other option.
The United States is an enabler of Israel, and until we change what we are doing, Israel’s horrific dance with the Palestinians will remain the same.
I wonder if Biden and Carter talked about this situation with Jimmy Carter during their recent visit.
James E Powell
@topclimber:
Even if we assume it to be politically possible here, can the US change the rules of what happens there?
Chief Oshkosh
@Adam L Silverman: That’s my recollection, but a big part that’s being left out is the absolute GLEE right-wingers here and in Isreal showed over her grisly death. They were joyful, practically dancing on camera.
Truly sorry excuses for human beings.
Kent
No. The Israelis would just form new alliances and continue on.
206inKY
We didn’t have a problem calling out the genocide of Armenian Christians by Ottoman Muslims. It was a horrific crime, but calling it out was politically easy. Stepping up to defend Muslim groups such the Uyghurs, Rohingya, Kurds, Houyhi, and especially the Palestinians is much harder.
Ohio Mom
CaseyL:
I agree, especially about the influx of Russian “Jews,” a lot of whom had dubious connections to Judaism.
They’d claim a maternal ancestor was Jewish, even if they themselves observed nothing Jewish — adopting a Jewish identity was their ticket out of the Soviet Union and into a western democracy, under Israel’s Law of Return.
As a side note, other Russian Jews moved to Brooklyn’s Brighton Beach and Sheepshead Bay neighborhoods and went into organized crime as the “Russian Mafia.” Again, as you said, Abused who had learned how to Abuse.
Tony Jay
@Adam L Silverman:
Agreed, and it’s not just coming from Netanyahu. It’s been noticeable with the rise of the BDS movement, and especially following the election of British History’s Greatest Monster to the role of Leader of the Opposition, that a lot of supposedly ‘liberal’ British commentators felt comfortable letting their freak flag fly where Israel/Palestine is concerned. Referring to ‘the Occupation’, to Apartheid, or to genocide in respect of Israel’s actions is de-facto anti-Semitic, British Jews who don’t have the security of the Israeli (Jewish) population at the forefront of their minds aren’t ‘proper’ Jews, discussion of Israel’s actions is perfectly possible… just not in whatever way the person wanting to discuss it is doing it. Over the last half a decade the issue has been made deliberately toxic, with an effective media boycott imposed upon the voices and opinions of Jewish people who fail to meet the ideological standards imposed by the ‘representative of the Jewish Community’, and the imposition of entirely slanted guidelines on what is and is not to be considered anti-Semitic by Government legislation cranking up to pressure on individuals and institutions to keep their mouths shut and their heads down.
It’s unsustainable, unhelpful, and will not end well.
Ohio Mom
CaseyL:
Another contributing factor to the Right-winging of Israel has been emigration. I don’t have data, just personal observations, so I’m willing to be corrected.
Israelis who are employable elsewhere in the world and who are uncomfortable with the direction of Israel’s politics can and do leave. There is something of a brain drain when it comes to Israelis who might have pushed for a different future.
Just another contributing factor to the perfect storm that is Israel.
Tony Jay
@Chief Oshkosh:
There used to be a troll here who adopted the handle ‘Pancake’ in reference to the manner in which Corrie was murdered.
‘Pancake’, geddit? Fuckers.
Sebastian
@Another Scott:
There are two key issues that need to be addressed but aren’t:
Jerusalem
Settler policy
Personally, the only way I can imagine Jerusalem solved is to make it an international protectorate. The only way there is to get the Catholic Church and other Christian organizations involved as they have an equally strong claim to the Holy City as Jews and Muslims. This will be monumentally difficult but Pope Francis or an equally liberal pope might be able to pull it off.
Settler policy can only be solved via lawsuits. Sue settlers and the state of Israel into bankruptcy for stealing property and water rights. Same way Jewish artwork stolen by Nazis is given back. The atrocities are covering up a whole host of state-sanctioned theft, the same way the Nazis did it. This can be dealt with in an international court, the WHO, or the legal systems of individual countries.
A final problem is that the Palestinian suffering is not so inconvenient for their Muslim neighbors, especially the Saudis, who use the conflict for propaganda and advancing their own agenda. Bankrupting the Saudis might be a good first step to change a lot of extremist bullshit going on but it’s far from the only thing wrong.
Wapiti
@206inKY: We didn’t have a problem calling out the Armenian genocide? It took like a hundred years for the President to do it.
trollhattan
McSweeney’s has a helpful glossary for journalists. Some of it sounds mighty familiar. An excerpt:
Another Scott
@Sebastian:
https://www.dw.com/en/with-jerusalem-on-edge-palestinian-families-face-eviction/a-57471530
shows that groups in the US are claiming ownership of East Jerusalem homes and driving the most recent evictions. The US can crack down on stuff like that, but the RWNJs in Israel will continue to try to find ways to drive the others out.
Cheers,
Scott.
topclimber
@James E Powell: I think we have a good chance now. Biden doesn’t have to give a speech for the word to get out that the Administration thinks Netanyahu is trying to frustrate Israeli Democracy–much like Bibi-Buddy TFG tried with the US one.
Press for UN and journalistic access to the scene of conflict. Remind the Israelis that we don’t trust a Bibi government to tell the truth. Do they?
Don’t guarantee a US veto of UN actions (oxymoron usually) or resolutions if Israel doesn’t cooperate on this one issue.
Send military teams to insure that any US arms Israel is using are acting in accordance with any provision in the contract.
Send out official word that the US is concerned about ALL citizens of Israel, both Jewish and not.
These are initial steps in the number one goal of bouncing Bibi.
The second goal–more normal if not official relations with Iran–is being partly addressed by the JPCOA talks. I think more good things will happen during Biden’s administration.
DB11
@Ohio Mom: I was living in Israel in the early eighties during the first wave of Soviet Jews immigrating to Israel. At that time (80-82) the USSR were only giving 3000 exit visas to Russian Jews. Those visas were only good for entry to Israel proper, though many such émigrés hopscotched to the States as soon as they were able.
[In fact, I had a handful of Russian Jews in my Ulpan (Hebrew language class) and it was pretty cool after a few months to be able to have a full-on conversation with a Russian in Hebrew!]
The real shift in Israeli politics and the quasi-permanent Likud-led RW government is primarily a function of the mass influx of almost a million Russian Jews after the fall of the Soviet Union. While religiously they may have been (nominally) Jewish, politically they were much more comfortable with authoritarian regimes than democratic ones — and the vast bulk of them lined up behind Likud, with many landing on the extreme right wing (e.g.: Avigdor Lieberman).
That, along with the assassination of Rabin and the second intifada permanently defenestrated the Israeli left in terms of public support and with it any real possibility of forming government — and thus precluded any positive follow-on to the Oslo accords or hope for a two-state solution.
Adam L Silverman
@206inKY: We had so little problem doing it that it took till Obama to do it informally and Biden to do it formally. But sure, other than that not a problem at all.
Adam L Silverman
@Tony Jay: And they did all that without Bari Weiss and Ben Shapiro. Imagined what things would’ve been like if you had them?
J R in WV
@BC in Illinois:
@CaseyL:
@germy:
Thanks, guys. Google was no help with a misspelled last name. Jogging my memory now, just another war crime, right? More horrible than most — well no, not actually. They’re all horrible…
We can count on good data from the Jackal Pack here. With the rare exceptions.
Tony Jay
@Adam L Silverman:
You drive an important international problem into an ideological cul-de-sac with the radicalised dipshits you have, not the ones you don’t have (but can always book onto the BBC as ‘expert commentators’).
Seriously, they had Dershowitz on as a credible Jewish voice a few years ago, and it’s only got worse since then.
DB11
@DB11: I should also note that at the time I arrived, it was during the implementation of the peace accords with Egypt, and shortly after they gave back the final strip of the Sinai to Egypt (but not before we spent a week beach camping at a then unspoiled and idylic Sharm-el-Sheikh :).
Busloads of Israeli’s were traveling to Egypt to visit Cairo and the pyramids and there was a tremendous amount of optimism regarding a more comprehensive peace with the Arab world.
But the seeds of today’s problems were already being sown — with hardline settlers moving into the West Bank in greater and greater numbers. Conflicts in Hebron between settlers and Palestinians were constantly in the news, and the rate of new (Israeli) construction in the occupied territories was gobsmacking.
It was evident then that Likud’s Greater Israel ambitions — and specifically the settlement policy — were going to become intractable impediments to the population’s desire for (at that time), and belief in the possibility of a broader peace.
Adam L Silverman
@Tony Jay: I should’ve taken Dersh out with the cream cheese spreader at the UF Center for Jewish Studies luncheon back in 2003 when I had the chance.// I was the Center’s post-doctoral fellow, so they seated me right next to him.
namekarB
Woodrow/asim
As someone coming to this conflict from a really odd angle (belly dancer-turned-amateur MENAT historian), I want to thank folx like you and Adam and others, esp. the Jewish folx on here, for providing insight and clarity and empathy.
Folx are right — it is hard. Yet it’s possible to get a grip on the issue, and to have informed opinions. That people won’t always like said opinions…well, you’re reading a Top 1000 Political Blog, ain’t cha?
Seriously, thank you.
J R in WV
Thanks also to Ohio Mom and Adam on the Rachel Corrie war crime. Can’t believe I forgot her murder, one among so many others.
Funny how JUST BY COINCIDENCE low level warfare ALWAYS breaks out with Bibi is about to go to jail, isn’t it? To quote another fine Jackal once more for emphasis.
And who was it that said we could never find a topic more depressing than the Sars2-Covid-19 pandemic?
Adam L Silverman
@J R in WV:
Fine, fine, I’ll break out the external hard drive and find that dame line graph I did back in 2004 showing the correlation.
Tony Jay
@Adam L Silverman:
A fizzle of energy, the scent of ozone, and as the burly man in the ‘Different Strokes’ onesie turned away from the screen he already knew what he would see. Eyes identical to his own stared levelly back at him from a face far older.
He took the offered implement. Under the blood the cheese had gone hard.
“I fixed it.”
He nodded.
“I’ll let the Jackals know.”
Adam L Silverman
@Tony Jay:
Martin
I have a really hard time believing that the AP and Al Jazeera would be setting up shop in the same building as a Hamas arsenal.
namekarB
This is in the courts.
Background. 1948 Palestinian refugees flee from newly formed Israel to Jordan (East Jerusalem. Jordan promises land and constructs houses for them but never follows through to deed the land to them. The land is held in a Trust. 1967 Israel annexes the West Bank including East Jerusalem. At some later point a private entity (I’m fuzzy here) acquires the Trust that holds the title to the land.
Now: Eviction notices have been served and the long court battle has concluded that the evictions are proper. The decision came out on a holy day for Muslims visiting the Mosque (3rd most holy site for Muslims) that happens to be on Temple Mount, the holiest site for Judaism.
All hell breaks loose
namekarB
This is in the courts.
Background. 1948 Palestinian refugees flee from newly formed Israel to Jordan (East Jerusalem). Jordan promises land and constructs houses for them but never follows through to deed the land to them. The land is held in a Trust. 1967 Israel annexes the West Bank including East Jerusalem. At some later point a private entity (I’m fuzzy here) acquires the Trust that holds the title to the land.
Now: Eviction notices have been served and the long court battle has concluded that the evictions are proper. The decision came out on a holy day for Muslims visiting the Mosque (3rd most holy site for Muslims) that happens to be on Temple Mount, the holiest site for Judaism.
All hell breaks loose.
Disclaimer. I repeating this from memory of a recent program I listened to on NPR
Another Scott
Cheers,
Scott.
Martin
@Wapiti: Sorta. You could have publicly asked any president* in the last half century at least if it was genocide and they’d all have openly said yes it was. It took a century for a formal declaration from the US Govt.
Understand the value and limitation of that. We formally recognize only one China and yet Taiwan probably gets more military assistance from us than Israels does. China grudgingly accepts this.
*excepting Trump who seems to have never learned a fucking thing as president except that he could pardon his friends.
taumatugo
@Another Scott: To me, this says it all. Sounds familiar? Protect the status no matter how many Palestinians are slaughter.
lofgren
Regardless of whether you believe the US can or should do something different, it sometimes feels like the only options on the table are
Both of which also look an awful lot like just making everything worse.
So I think I have to agree with the folks saying we should just throw our hands up and walk away, until I see an actual workable suggestion for what, exactly, we should do.
Martin
You know, I never really had a sense of the degree to which the US ‘sets the example for other nations’. I mean, it’s said all the damn time, but it’s almost impossible to measure. But I really get the sense that Trumpism has really infected a number of other countries.
I can’t express how worried I am about the damage the GOP is doing right now, and how limited our non-violent options seem to be to remedy it.
DB11
@Woodrow/asim: Thanks.
For someone who holds their time in Israel as dear as I do — and for all the admiration I have for Israel and the affection I hold for Israelis — it has been heartbreaking to see this slow-motion humanitarian disaster unfold for the past 40 years. (And with it, the inevitable erosion of international support for Israel’s very existence).
But imagine if the U.S. went from Bush to Romney to Trump with no Democratic president / Senate / House from 2001 on — what state would the country be in, and how many more outrages and transgressions would liberal Americans have to be ashamed of — done in their country’s name? (and without respite)
I think it was Ohio Mom’s comment that the emigration of more progressive Israelis (much like how many leftist Americans considered leaving the US in the darkest days of Bush / Trump), has contributed to the cementing of the Israels right’s domination of the Knesset.
There is no foreseeable solution, but the U.S. must end their monetary and military support of Israel until it stops ethnic cleansing in Gaza, East Jerusalem and the West Bank. There must be consequences for these horrors.
Kent
It was probably the other way around. The media companies were probably there first and then later, perhaps recently, Hamas decided to use it as a strategic location under the assumption that the Israeli’s would be less likely to attack the site if western media companies were located there.
JoyceH
I long ago stopped trying to understand what was going on over there. The main source of bafflement these days is how it is that Netanyahu keeps losing elections and yet never has to leave.
Brachiator
@Martin:
There were right wing movements in various countries before Trump became president. But he was definitely sympathetic to some of them and met with or said good things about right wing leaders and other scum, such as, for example, BREXIT supporter Nigel Farage.
Woodrow/asim
I would differ a mite. Netanyahu, of course, has been in place long before Trump even thought about running. I’m no UK expert, however Brexit was a running concern in 2016, and there’s Le Pen in France, also prior to Trump.
Europe has been dealing with Nationalism for a while. What you are seeing is the seeds planted by a loose coalition of those folx, across the Americas and Europe, sprouting about the same time. Trump isn’t driving that across the world; rather like with a lot of things, he rode that wave of hate and deceit to electoral victory in the US.
And it’s an OLD wave. I would recommend running thru the Tweets of Seth Cotlar, who’s been doing amazing work over the last few months digging up and contextualizing primary sources/documents on the rise of the modern “Conservative” ideology in mid-last Century America.
It’s sometimes terrifying how much the language we hear today — from “socialist” onwards — was developed by antisemites and white supremacists all those years ago. We’ve…lost track of that origin, as a country (as a world!), and it’s useful to remind ourselves that this is a hot mess of many, many years.
Geminid
@namekarB: The court case regarding the Sheikh Jarrar evictions has not yet concluded. The Israeli Supreme Court was to have a hearing last Monday on the families’ appeal, but Israel’s Attorney General asked for a delay so he could consider the families’ request to intervene on their side. The Court set a date of June 8 for a hearing where the AG will report on his intentions.
Woodrow/asim
@Woodrow/asim: Quick note — I mean “socialist” being given a negative connotation, in my prior comment. Apologies for any confusion!
DB11
@JoyceH: It’s a function of Israel’s direct proportional representation: I was there during Begin’s re-election campaign in 1981 and there were 32 (IIRC) political parties running for seats in the Knesset!
Every Israeli government is a coalition, usually (though not always) formed by the party that holds the plurality of votes. In practical terms what this has done is give disproportionate power to the ultra-religious parties (in demanding religious/settler policy favours in return for joining the coalition).
It used to be a ratchet from the 80’s to 2000 when power ping-ponged back and forth between RW and LW coalitions: when Likud was in power they’d step on the gas by implementing extreme RW policies and supporting ever more settlements.
When Labour came to power they would halt new settlements but — aside from a kibbutz in Gaza — they never were able to role back the previous wave, and so the multi-generational Greater Israel project (read: ethnic cleansing) always moved forward — if haltingly at times.
Since 2001 they’ve gone from Sharon (Bush) directly to Netanyahu (Trump) with no Obama in between to briefly right the ship. Imagine Trump with three consecutive terms: how much every aspect of government (and the courts) would be sullied — filled with cronies and rife with corruption. That’s how Bibi’s stayed in power for the past 12 years.
Martin
@Woodrow/asim: I know, but it seems like Trump validated and empowered those movements. Israeli ethnonationalism seems quite a bit bolder than it was in 2016. Canada has been dabbling in it more as well.
Tony Jay
@Adam L Silverman:
Damn it but I love the tiny little baby-junk out of that film.
I will always be crap at pop-cult references, though.
ColoradoGuy
There’s not much you can do with any nuclear-armed state. Don’t like what Russia does to dissidents, China to Tibetans and Uighurs, or Israel to Palestinians? Too bad. We can boycott, cajole, or diplomatically isolate, but that’s about it.
The Israeli case is made more difficult by the horrific nature of the adjoining regimes, which make Israel look good by comparison. If the adjoining states were half-decent democracies, Israel would look far worse. But they’re not.
Geminid
@JoyceH: Netanyahu keeps losing elections, but no one else wins. Israel’s Knesset elections are contested by parties running slates of candidates nationwide. Basically, a party winning 10% of the vote is awarded 12 seats in the Knesset, which go to the top twelve people on it’s slate. A party receiving less than 3.25% does not win any Knesset members.
The last election saw 13 parties pass the threshold. Netanyahu’s Likud led with 28 seats, and could have easily formed a 61 member government but for the fact that two rightwing party leaders hate Netanyahu’s guts. If a rocket landed on Netanyahu tonight, a government led by Likud could in principle be formed tomorrow, although in practice there would be weeks of dickering over who got which cabinet position. Now that Netanyahu has failed to form a government, Mr. Lapid, whose centrist party came in second with 18 MKs, has the mandate to try. Lapid will likely fail, and another election will be held in the fall.
Until that election plays out, Netanyahu will remain in power in a coalition he put together after the last election. He precipitated this election because he thought it would free him from sharing power with Blue and White chief Benny Gantz. The Blue and White Justice Minister was a particular thorn in Netanyahu’s side.
Ohio Mom
DB11:
Thanks for the clarification on the waves of Russian immigrants to Israel.
Your comment also brought back memories of the time many of us could see all sorts of happy potential in Israel — which only makes watching the current circumstances a more bitter experience.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@JoyceH:
TFG wants to know how he does that too.
Suzanne
@Ohio Mom:
This is an aspect of this issue that I had never considered, and it makes so much sense and is so tragic.
I thought Jared had fixed this and it was all a real estate transaction….
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Suzanne:
He did, but we lost his genius when TFG left the White House. //
HumboldtBlue
This 10-year-old Palestinian girl wants to know what she’s supposed to do.
laura
Probably as good a time as any to pull Skinny Legs and All down off the bookshelf, dust lightly/remove cat hair, and give it a rereading. Tom Robbins sorted out a solution reconciliation using go go boots, hummus and the dance of the seven veils. We’ll see if it holds up.
DB11
@Ohio Mom: You’re welcome.
The other first wave of immigration to Israel happening at the same time was that of the Ethiopian Jews. I was busy coaching tennis at one of the Israel Tennis Centres the month they first started arriving, and we shortly instituted a special program for them to try and help integrate the kids into the broader society.
Truth be told, it was a fraught effort because there was a tremendous amount of bigotry and racism (ironically rooted in white — i.e. Ashkenazi — supremacy) directed at them from other Israelis. We did what we could at the centre to make them feel welcome, doing something fun together — but it was a drop in the ocean given what they faced in the broader society.
As regards the contrast you refer to, between long-past hope and current despair in the ME, I couldn’t agree more.
Frank Wilhoit
“…These atrocities have to stop.”
Says who?
They could be stopped by overwhelming countervailing force.
The alternative is some approach that has not yet been imagined and that cannot be imagined by anyone who is not closely familiar with the root causes, which have to do, not only with the way Great Britain fought World War I, but even more so with the way they anticipated fighting World War I. The period you need to be looking at is therefore not only 1914-17, but 1911-17. The three people whose fingerprints are all over it are First Lord of the Admiralty Winston Churchill, Admiral of the Fleet and First Sea Lord Sir John Arbuthnot (“Jacky”) Fisher, and Foreign Secretary (and former Prime Minister) A. J. Balfour — three of the all-time pieces of work. By the time they were finished, one of the great perennial minefields had been sown. And, as has been hinted above, one of the essences of modern politics is that problems are not things to solve, but things to exploit.
The only way to unwind history is not to wind it in the first place. You can always wind more — that is where the overwhelming countervailing force would come in….
laura
@HumboldtBlue: that child speaks the truth and shames the devil.
Geminid
@DB11: I’ve read that the many Jewish refugees who came to Israel from North Africa and Middle Eastern countries in the years after 1948 were discriminated against by the Ashkenazi, and still are somewhat. Someone once pointed out that Israeli politics were dominated by WASPs- White Ashkenazi Sabra Paratroopers. It was only slightly an exaggeration.
pat
@laura:
I wonder where she learned her English. Perfect, an accent I can’t place, but might be British???
And heartbreaking to see.
Another generation of abused kids growing up.
Another Scott
Interesting 1960 MS thesis on Truman’s path to recognizing Israel. Includes information from interviews with him, and a brief history from 1916.
So little has changed…
https://scholars.fhsu.edu/theses/665 (111 page .PDF)
Cheers,
Scott.
MobiusKlein
Probably been discussed, but …
Why is the Israeli constitution setup so the Prime Minister gets to stay in office indefinitely when there is no winner of the election? Seems like a way for a leader to hold on to power by using emergency powers, like a tyrant.
Can we now conclude Israel is no longer a democracy?
Brachiator
@MobiusKlein:
Why is the Israeli constitution setup so the Prime Minister gets to stay in office indefinitely when there is no winner of the election? Seems like a way for a leader to hold on to power by using emergency powers, like a tyrant.
No.
Parliamentary governments have all kinds of ways to keep things running until a new election is called.
Brantl
@Sam: We do, since we sided with the people who illegally deprived them of their land (the Palestinians).
Ruckus
@Woodrow/asim:
This.
History gets somewhat glossed over and rather easily forgotten. Hate is a human emotion, everyone of us is capable of it and most of us have hated someone at some time. Many of us hate groups of people most often for rather irrational reasons. And that hate can carry on for generations and even become nationalized. It gets explained away with numerous explanations, most of which are bullshit. Hate has led to many if not the vast majority of wars. And given our current world population if we continue to believe in hate as a group consensus that we need for progress, we will never change.
Geminid
@MobiusKlein: I would not conclude that Israel is no longer a democracy. Netanyahu is not a tyrant, but a leader of a dysfunctional coalition. His two ultraorthodox party partners are fairly compliant, but he cannot dominate his Blue and White partners. They occupy real power centers, including the Defense, Foreign, and Justice ministries. Blue and White Minister of Justice Nissikorn defied Netanyahu’s attempts to hamstring the prosecutors who finally brought Netanyahu to trial last month. That is why Netanyahu precipitated this election late last year.
Steeplejack (phone)
Off topic, but I’m going out and need to drop this somewhere:
Gee, why would you barricade the door against “tourists”? ?
wenchacha
@Kent: That is heartening to hear. Thanks!
DB11
@Geminid: There’s been a tremendous demographic shift in Israel since the time I lived there — the population has more than doubled (from just under 4M to more than 9M). The latest stats show Ashkenazi and Sephardi / Mizrahi populations now essentially equal at around 44% each of the Jewish pop — though the first group still dominates in terms of political and economic power as you say.
I see that the population of Beta Israel (Ethiopian Jews) has grown to 133K (in 2018) since the time they first starting arriving in their hundreds. I’ve always been curious as to how and whether conditions for them have significantly improved since the beginning — I sure hope so, though I don’t doubt that they still face discrimination and systemic racism as you describe.
Those changes: the mass Russian immigration; the extraordinarily high Haredi birth rate; the growth of the Arab population (now 21% with Jews at around 75%) — along with the 20 year total political domination of an authoritarian right wing — have completely changed the societal dynamics and rendered the Israel that I once knew sadly obsolete.
Geminid
@Steeplejack (phone): I looked up Andrew Clyde to see what part of Georgia he represents. His Wikipedia entry begins, “Andrew Scott Clyde is an American politician and gun dealer from….”
Clyde’s northeast Georgia district includes Gainesville and Dahlonaga. I’m guessing it borders M.T. Greene’s district, and has a similar demographic.
Chetan Murthy
@MobiusKlein:
I think that question is ill-posed. It ought to be “Can we now conclude Israel is no longer a democracy for its Jewish citizens?” [and I don’t have an answer to that question.]
But Israel long ago ceased to be a democracy for the people who live under its rule. It’s an apartheid state, full stop.
And I’m the sort of person who *continues* to believe that the Jewish People of Planet Earth need a homeland that they can defend themselves, without resort to the kindness of other countries and peoples. They say about Fascism that “that train is never late”: fascists always end up to have been antisemites. So I support the existence of Israel as a Jewish State. And I *accept* that that means some settler colonialism. But what’s happened since 1967 is something different, something more. And bit-by-bit, it’s become unacceptable (to me).
Israel is going to end where South Africa did. And I’ll be sad for that, b/c if they’d chosen a different path, they could have lived in harmony with the Palestinians.
P.S. And I don’t think “it’s complicated” at all. It’s really simple: you can accept the pre-1967 borders, and still feel that all the annexation that’s happened since then is an abomination. That running The Gaza Strip as a giant open-air jail means that Israel is responsible, *responsible* for the well-being of those people. And (as Arundhati Roy said, something like): people on the brink of erasure have the right to fight back.
Raven
@Geminid: He’s from here in Athens and that is not similar to Greene’s but the other two are.
Raven
So I had one of my best fishing days ever Wednesday, huge Amberjacks and a 60 lb Wahoo as a capper! I spent the better part of 2 days vacuum freezing the fish an I haven’t counted but there are at least 30 packages. Meanwhile the Bohdi has a running sore on his hind leg so, like good doggie parents, we drove an hour and a half through deepest darkest Trump world of Panama City Beach to the emergency vet only to be told we’d have to call and set an appointment because it’s not life threatening. We’ll go back in an hour! Woohoo wahooo!
debbie
@Geminid:
Any idea what that leather band he wears diagonally across his chest is about?
Geminid
@DB11: There is plenty of blame to go around, but I thought the suicide bombings carried out during the Second Intifada really hardened Israeli attitudes against a peace settlement. They were a terrible and destructive mistake. The Palestinian leadership was never going to terrorize Jewish Israelis into giving Palestinians their rights with suicide bombs. All that did was drive Israelis into the rightwing parties.
debbie
@Raven:
Impressive haul!
Geminid
@debbie: No, I did not notice his picture.
trollhattan
@Geminid:
I’ll assert the Rabin assassination had a similar effect on the fate of Palestinian rights as the Lincoln assassination had on that of southern blacks. Progress halted and it has now been a quarter century since Rabin was murdered.
prostratedragon
@Steeplejack (phone):
Surely they’ve been meaning “tsuris.”
No, eh?
Chetan Murthy
@Geminid:
As I remember it, all during the period when the Oslo Accords were in effect (and ostensibly peace reigned) Israel continued building settlements. The idea that somehow sweetness would convince Israel to change policy is …. contradicted by facts.
The only thing that will convince Israel to stop, is ostracism by the rest of the civilized world. Maybe not even that. It took me a lotta years, but I finally gave up the fatuous [yeah, I looked it up, it fits] notion that -any- behaviour by the Palestinians, could cause Israel to stop taking their land.
ETA: They even have a phrase for it (as I remember Moshe Dayan was quoted as saying): “Facts on the ground”.
Raven
@Geminid: he owns several gun stores and I assume it’s a holster strap. His Athens store is Clyde Armory and looks like a fort.
http://www.thebluebook.com/iProView/826636/cast-in-stone-inc/material-suppliers/construction-projects/clyde-armory-159089
zhena gogolia
No new posts since 11:00 AM today?
Raven
@zhena gogolia: that’s why I said fuck it and put up fish stuff
The Pale Scot
@zhena gogolia:
Quiet in Ranks!
:)
debbie
@trollhattan:
Rabin’s assassination pretty much ended any thought of a peaceful resolution.
schrodingers_cat
@Mo Salad: Wars are hard. He will just terrorize Indian Muslims and anyone else who raises a voice against him.
zhena gogolia
@Raven: Oh, let me try to find that.
Anything but Israel!
zhena gogolia
@Raven:
Great fish!
I hope Bohdi feels better.
zhena gogolia
@debbie:
raven’s right. Clyde can’t go anywhere without his fake penis strapped around his chest.
dexwood
This thread is a hell of a lot longer than the tedious movie. Discuss.
zhena gogolia
@dexwood:
I was in a Zoom conference for two days and looking forward to some juicy BJ gossip, but it’s been the same thread all day long.
Geminid
@trollhattan: Some years after Rabin’s assassination, rightwing stalwart Ariel Sharon came around to the belief that a peace settlement was imperative. His Likud party was dead set against it, so Sharon formed a new party, Kadima. Sharon was not a good man, and as Menachim Begin’s Defense minister bore responsiblity for terrible crimes in Lebanon. But Sharon had enough credibility among the Israeli right to have had pulled off a settlement. Then Sharon had a massive stroke that left him paralysed and unconscious. Kadima crumbled after a few years, and the odious Netanyahu inherited leadership of Likud.
Gin & Tonic
@Raven: Nice! All surfcasting, or did you go offshore?
DB11
@Geminid: I had just finished a long dissertation on the effect of Rabin’s assignation in Nov ’95 (by a religious ultranationalist) as being the fulcrum between momentum towards building trust and peace (through the full implementation of the Oslo Accords) with the broad support of the majority of Israelis — and the subsequent unraveling of the peace process, culminating in the failure of the 2000 Camp David Summit, triggering the 2nd Intifada and the resulting hardening of the Israeli populace towards any talk of peace after the unrelenting terror that Hamas unleashed.
But the site ate my comment before I could post it and several others have beat me to the punch to make the same point (and more succinctly) in the meantime!
dexwood
@zhena gogolia: Thought I’d check in before prepping dinner. Same thread hours after my first check in. Important topic, but it ain’t the only one. And, I agree, we can always use some lighter weekend fare. If the front pagers are off enjoying Spring, though, well, I’ll stop complaining. They are due some fun.
Geminid
@Chetan Murthy: I am not saying that sweetness was going to sway Israeli sentiment. But you tell me one good thing those bombings accomplished.
They killed a lot of people who did not deserve to die. For what? They created a lot of hatred. To what end?
You cannot justify them on moral or pragmatic grounds.
Another Scott
@Another Scott:
Excerpts:
(The American interests were driven by the $1.25B oil companies had invested in development in the region.)
The more things change…
Cheers,
Scott.
Feathers
@Frank Wilhoit: And Balfour also oversaw the partition of Ireland, setting off decades of violence. Got that settled twenty years ago, and his spiritual heirs have decided that Ireland’s concerns about peace mean nothing if it gets in the way of their plans for a Putin aligned kleptocracy. Sigh.
DB11
@Geminid: When I left Israel in May of ’82, it was less than two weeks later that Sharon (as chief of defence forces) invaded Southern Lebanon. There was a lot of talk during the build-up as to how Sharon wanted his own war, and the subsequent military mobilization (carried out in the background of an otherwise normal civil society) was frighteningly ominous.
I concur with what you said about him: Sharon was objectively a bully, a war-monger, a war criminal — and all-around terrible person. But he was also a brilliant man and he eventually came to the same conclusion re peace as his opponents on the other side of the Israeli political spectrum did: that Israel’s survival depended on securing it.
I was thinking about how unique were the circumstances that allowed the successful completion of the original Camp David Accords: it required a Democratic President on the American side (Carter) to want to seek peace and think it was possible: and it required a military hardliner on the Israeli side (Begin) for the Israeli public to trust that their security wasn’t being traded away. (and I should add that it required an Egyptian leader — Sadat — with the vision to imagine the possibility and the courage to see it through)
Any other combination of party leaders on each side and the process couldn’t have worked.
Sharon had a lot of the same bona fides (and sins) as Begin and would have been trusted — at least by the Israeli’s — to lead a peace effort, but only if it had been years earlier: the conditions and public attitudes on both sides precluded any possibility of peace by the time he came to power with Kadima in 2003.
Given the reasons he split with Likud to form Kadima, it’s somewhat ironic that it was his ill-advised provocation (of touring the Temple Mount) that was the spark that lit the fuse for the 2nd Intifada — which was the final nail in the coffin of any viable peace process between Israelis and Palestinians.
Geminid
@Raven: I’m glad someone is getting in some fishing. I’m sure not.
Please don’t catch them all.
Steeplejack
@Geminid:
Yes, and if you look at his business, Clyde Armory, it aspires to be a medieval castle.
Steeplejack
@Raven:
Congrats on the ???. And good luck with the pup!
pat
@DB11:
Thank you for all your very informative comments. I’ve been coming back to this thread throughout the day and always learn something. Sometimes something new, often things I have forgotten.
Thank you!
Frank Wilhoit
@Feathers: The specific blame for Ireland belongs less to Balfour than to his successor as Tory leader, Andrew Bonar Law, and above all the odious Edward Carson. Asquith didn’t help either; he underestimated the Tories’ brinkmanship, and they would have gone right over the edge and pulled him with them if the World War had not broken out when it did. Asquith’s successor, Lloyd George, had a bizarre and fatuous belief in compromise for its own sake, but, in light of the fatal mistakes that had already been made in 1912-14, it may be that L. G. did about the best that could have been done in 1921-22.
namekarB
This old dawg learned quite a bit from this thread. I am humbled to have so much knowledge thrown at me in a single post
Honus
@Sam: agreed. So stop all US aid to Israel
Sebastian
@Another Scott:
Interesting. Thank you.
No One of Consequence
I’m not sure I am adding anything here, but I feel compelled to comment. The Israeli-Palestinian Conflict sickens me on so many levels, I almost don’t know where to start. I usually cannot make it past the suffering.
It is needless.
And it is manufactured.
And it is allowed.
And largely the burden of the innocent.
And though I believe it to be unsustainable, on and on it goes.
I suggest “Skinny Legs and All”, for a single bold thought, when considered, shakes one’s beliefs to the core. Since I read that book the first time, my mind has never settled on What Is To Be Done there.
I fear nothing will change until the The Suffering is more widely-spread and begins to encompass the Comfortable and Secure.
Regardless of what the future will hold, I believe we should take our cue (in this very limited instance and no further) from Kissinger, to effect:
Nations have Interests. The United States has had Interests that have aligned with Israel for many years. It is no longer in the Interests of the United States to support Israel, until such a time as it can fashion a sustainable, just and equitable Peace with their Palestinian neighbors. Furthermore, it is in the Interests of The United States to relieve Suffering where is exists in the World. As such the United States will be providing help and relief to the Palestinian people in the form of medical and civil aid. (Read here: non-military in *any* conceivable capacity.) We will be happy to help advance the cause of Peace, but our financial and military backing of Israel has reached it’s end.
Peace, before and in place of The Status Quo,
NOoC
JCNZ
I am in 100% agreement with the arguments of both sides.
Also, there was a terrific episode of the Daily podcast on May 13 which outlines what is happening at the moment and why.