Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

There is no compromise when it comes to body autonomy. You either have it or you don’t.

It’s easier to kill a dangerous animal than a man who just happens to have different thoughts/values than one’s own.

Pelosi: “He either is stupid, or he thinks the rest of us are.” Why not both?

You can’t attract Republican voters. You can only out organize them.

A sufficient plurality of insane, greedy people can tank any democratic system ever devised, apparently.

There is no right way to do the wrong thing.

I’m just a talker, trying to find a channel!

The gop is a fucking disgrace.

“The defense has a certain level of trust in defendant that the government does not.”

Bogus polls are all they’ve got left. Let’s bury these fuckers at the polls a year from now.

Imperialist aggressors must be defeated, or the whole world loses.

Fani Willis claps back at Trump chihuahua, Jim Jordan.

Prediction: the gop will rethink its strategy of boycotting future committees.

Republicans are the party of chaos and catastrophe.

Stop using mental illness to avoid talking about armed white supremacy.

The most dangerous place for a black man in America is in a white man’s imagination.

if you can’t see it, then you are useless in the fight to stop it.

“The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits.”

Historically it was a little unusual for the president to be an incoherent babbling moron.

Jack Smith: “Why did you start campaigning in the middle of my investigation?!”

Peak wingnut was a lie.

The party of Reagan has become the party of Putin.

It’s the corruption, stupid.

Despite his magical powers, I don’t think Trump is thinking this through, to be honest.

You are here: Home / Open Threads / I Don’t Understand What the Issue Is

I Don’t Understand What the Issue Is

by | 151 Comments

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If the people who are subpoenaed do not comply, you send them to fucking jail:

The select committee investigating the Jan. 6 Capitol riot threatened on Friday to pursue criminal charges against Stephen K. Bannon, the former chief strategist to President Donald J. Trump, for refusing to comply with its subpoena, announcing it would consider initiating criminal contempt of Congress proceedings.

In a statement after Mr. Bannon informed the panel that he would not cooperate in the inquiry, the panel’s leaders said they would “swiftly consider” the contempt referral, raising the prospect of what could be a prolonged legal battle over what could be crucial evidence in the investigation.

The committee has ordered four former Trump administration officials — Mr. Bannon; Mark Meadows, the White House chief of staff; Dan Scavino Jr., a deputy chief of staff and Kash Patel, a Pentagon chief of staff — to sit for depositions and furnish documents and other materials relevant to its investigation.

It’s not like it is without precedent- google Susan McDougal. Republicans loved it then.

Reader Interactions

151Comments

  1. 1.

    Amanda in the South Bay

    Wasn’t she jailed because of a failure to testify in front of a grand jury empaneled by the special prosecutor, one Ken Starr? Not a worthless congressional subpoena. And no Ted Lieu, fines are worthless to these people.

    This whole thing should be under Garland’s purview, and he should’ve appointed a special prosecutor. It’s all fucking worthless otherwise, and Garland’s performance here has been utterly shitacular.

  3. 3.

    RaflW

    The only thing Bannon understands is power. Jail is the appropriate exercise of official House subpoena power.

    Do. It.

  6. 6.

    Elizabelle

    @Amanda in the South Bay:

    I know, Amanda. Garland should get right to it. Like that prosecutor in the Bill Cosby case!

    Wait, what ….??

    Patience, grasshopper. You want the charges to stick. Hard.  And the case to be tamper-proof on appeal by the Inferior Court (as constituted).

  7. 7.

    bbleh

    Or, you know, Congress could return to a practice far from unknown in the 19th century and exercise its inherent right of enforcement by having the Sergeant at Arms (or whichever agency they work with) seize them and jail them until they appear, the same way courts do.

    Congress IS the first branch…

  12. 12.

    Another Scott

    It looks like Lawfare has an explainer (from 2019):

    Either house of Congress can vote to hold in contempt a witness who refuses to provide testimony or produce requested documents pursuant to a congressionally authorized subpoena. As set out in 2 U.S.C. § 194, the U.S. attorney for the District of Columbia has the “duty [] to bring the matter before the grand jury for its action.” Contempt of Congress, which is a federal misdemeanor, is punishable by a maximum $100,000 fine and a maximum one-year sentence in federal prison. […] Congress can also file a lawsuit asking a judge to order the witness to provide the information, raising the additional possibility of imprisonment for contempt of court.

    The House is following the process. They’ll serve the subpoenas, expect compliance, address any court challenges, and then go through the contempt stuff if things aren’t resolved so that they testify.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  19. 19.

    JPL

    @Amanda in the South Bay: It was easier because of the special prosecutor.

    I saw an interesting comment today, that if the democrats had tried to appoint a special prosecutor on January 6th at ten pm, they might have been able to.   That was the window of opportunity.

  25. 25.

    sab

    @Amanda in the South Bay: We have a 50/50 senate and we want to abrogate the rule of law? That seems to be not very sensible

    ETA Judging by the comments you not me is the one in step. But I still think ai am right.

  26. 26.

    Amanda in the South Bay

    @Alison Rose: yes, wanting Garland to have appointed a special prosecutor is the epitome of impatience mixed with wanting to neglect due process. Got it.

  28. 28.

    gene108

    @Another Scott:

    I think the fear, and it’s not unfounded, is Bannon lawyers up and stalls hoping the House flips in 2023, and/or drags things out to the point the Committee issues its report without hearing from him.

    Trump’s White House counsel, Dan McGahn, successfully did this when the House subpoenaed him to testify in 2019. He agreed to testify, in a closed door hearing, in 2021, after Trump lost and his testimony would not hurt TFG’s 2020 election chances.

  29. 29.

    Poptartacus

    I pony up bucks every year. Now when the dems ask. My response

    WHEN YOU GROW A FUCKING PAIR

    so there
    wont Do any good but I feel better

  32. 32.

    SpaceUnit

    Amanda is correct regarding the details of McDougal’s confinement. Otherwise she and Cole are expressing the same frustration. I know I’m kinda new around here, or at least to the comments, but I don’t understand the hostility.

  34. 34.

    Amanda in the South Bay

    @SpaceUnit: cause I used to be here ages ago and people think I’m being super uncool for wanting due process to be abrogated or something. IDK.

  36. 36.

    Amanda in the South Bay

    I await people to call Cole impatient and a constitution destroying rube for expressing such a bellicose take.

  38. 38.

    Elizabelle

    Look, I don’t want to see puppy or kitten day, or treacle.  But:

    Could we have a thread that is not “Democrats can’t do anything right, and they’re doing it too slowly anyway.  From my keyboard, I could do a better job!!”

    It’s enervating.

    If we can all see the danger lurking, to our very democracy, why would anyone think Garland and Biden do not?  Are they morons?  (That last sentence was rhetorical.)

  39. 39.

    JPL

    @SpaceUnit: It takes two to tango..   just sayin..   Read through the comments, and you might see the problem.

    Before that though watch Joe give the kiddos a tour of Marine One  (27)

  41. 41.

    Steeplejack

    Watching the Braves-Brewers game. I did not know that MLB has, or needed to have, an “official crypto exchange” (FTX). That is some deep-cut sponsorship shit.

  42. 42.

    Baud

    @gene108:

    And there’s no way around that.  Since everyone is bring up the McDougal example, let me remind you all that she never did testify despite being put in jail.

  44. 44.

    zhena gogolia

    @Amanda in the South Bay: I call Cole someone who didn’t notice that his own blog just had a post on this very topic in which people discussed it up and down. Just like right now, like comments are still being added to that post.

  52. 52.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    as I recall and confirm by Wiki, my understanding is McDougal was jailed for contempt by the judge, one of the few cases where a judge can do this, as far as this non-lawyer understands, without going through all that stuff with defense lawyers and motions and whatnot. When she actually went to trial– the thing prosecutors do– a year after the judge ordered her locked up– a pretty typical if not quick timeframe as far as I can tell– she was acquitted by the jury. Again, IANAL.

  53. 53.

    gene108

    @JPL:

    Executive privilege should not cover Bannon though.

    First, Congress has to actually issue a subpoena, which will take days or weeks. Who knows.

    Second, a grand jury has to indict Bannon. This takes some time.

    Third, a federal judge in DC has to be assigned to hear the case. The time between the issue of the indictment and the hearing will kill a few more weeks or months.

    Fourth, whatever the result of the initial judges ruling, the side it’s unfavorable to will appeal to a higher federal court.

    Fifth, higher ranking federal judge hears appeal. A few weeks eaten up.

    Sixth, the losing side appeals to have the case decided by the entire DC Circuit Court of Appeals. This kills a few more weeks.

    The system itself does not work very fast, and I’m not including whatever motions Bannon’s attorneys file to delay discovery and handing over documents to the court that will add more time before this gets resolved.

  56. 56.

    sab

    Amanda in South Bay is either an idiot or a troll. I am opting for teachable idiot, but I might be wrong.

  57. 57.

    piratedan

    guess we’re all just tired of waiting on process… bad guys break laws in lightning fashion, enjoinder unconstitutional crap in the middle of the night, support illegal crap sans argument, act in bad faith and even speak to crimes that they’ve committed in public and we wait on the good guys to follow process.  Meanwhile our supposedly impartial 4th estate is calling balls and strikes, yet continually take the position about how exciting it is to watch these “bad boys” shake up the process.

    I appreciate those who continually remind us that what we see on TV rarely matches the reality of process, but with what has been released publicly, statements made in public, you question when consequences for actions taken will take effect.

  58. 58.

    Elizabelle

    @Omnes Omnibus:  And I picked up the grasshopper comment from one of you.  Maybe you, maybe Bill in Glendale.

    I’ve never seen that “wax on, wax off” show in my life.  (Google tells me it was Karate Kid.)

    You have to admit, it is way kinder than patience, ashmole.

    Although, I am seeing the possibilities of gashopper.

    I do get it.  We are all terrified, in the pits of our stomachs and in the dark of the night; some of us hide it better.  There is precedent (in other countries) for what is going on, and it never ends well.

    I just never see the point of throwing rocks at the firefighters.  YMMV.

    Schrodinger’s Cat spoke of the “sealioning chicken little” crowd (prior thread), and that is probably way too much of twitter and cable and pundits. Stepping away from as much of that as you can may keep you energized, less enraged.

  61. 61.

    MomSense

    Look we are all sick to fucking death of Republican traitorous behavior and enabling. If you are expecting Democrats to become lawless just like the Republicans, prepare to be disappointed. It’s also a horrible thing to wish for. At some point we have to restore some fucking reason and rehabilitate this Democracy of ours. Everyone needs to stop catastrophizing. The legal process takes time. Fixing the multiple messes we are in will take time.

  62. 62.

    gene108

    @Elizabelle:

    If we can all see the danger lurking, to our very democracy, why would anyone think Garland and Biden do not? Are they morons? (That last sentence was rhetorical.)

    If Justice Breyer is an indication of what people entrenched in the courts or DC political culture think, they maybe not aware.

  65. 65.

    debbie

    Comparing special prosecutor (through the DOJ, no?) to Congressional investigation is apples and oranges. Besides, the DOJ seems to progressing very nicely with the many hundreds of cases they’ve got going against the insurrectionists.

  68. 68.

    TeezySkeezy

    @gene108: Good point.  Without Breyer’s actual statements, I too would think it absurd to imagine these people are *that* out of touch. But his statements pin the possibilities down, don’t they? These people really can truly be that out of touch.

  70. 70.

    dr. bloor

    @piratedan:

    guess we’re all just tired of waiting on process

    It also occasionally saves the lives of innocent men and women convicted of crimes.  We all have our own cost/benefit equations about whether this is a “good” or “bad” thing.

    My irrational hope in this particular context is that when it gets there, Chief Justice Roberts and his ilk will decide throwing Trump under the bus is an easy price to pay for maintaining the fig leaf of impartiality.

  75. 75.

    germy

    Less than nine months out of office and only 44% of Republicans want the former President to run again. That means the overwhelming majority of Republicans don’t want him to run. Those are weak numbers for the former President. https://t.co/GP62srFDjy

    — Ted Lieu (@tedlieu) October 8, 2021

  78. 78.

    TeezySkeezy

    @debbie: But if it was a choice of the usual suspects in the GOP primary though…would he lose?  Would Ron really beat Don?

  82. 82.

    gene108

    @Baud:

    And there’s no way around that. Since everyone is bring up the McDougal example, let me remind you all that she never did testify despite being put in jail.

    She suffered and for many that’s what counts as much as anything.

  83. 83.

    Cameron

    @gene108: I don’t know if they have to drag it out that long.  Just long enough until the next Death Clock Debt Day, and Our Liberal Media will forget about a bunch of boring hearings and focus on Why Joe Biden And The Democrats Want To Blow Up The World Economy.

  84. 84.

    piratedan

    @dr. bloor: in thinking about this… in regards to timing and effect, I think back to that relatively recent remake of The Mummy and sometimes it feels like some of us are the American adventurer, who’s trying to beat back the present horror and threat and others are very much the plucky British scholar who says while chaos erupts around her, “I was right! take that Pembroke Scholars!”….

    some of us are very much in pants on fire mode and the fire department hasn’t hooked up the hose to put out our pants until we’ve included an emergency contact and our insurance policy number on the form and wants to know if we used a black pen.

  87. 87.

    Mallard Filmore

    @Amanda in the South Bay:

    cause I used to be here ages ago and people think I’m being super uncool for wanting due process to be abrogated or something

    I think you and I share the same frustration that due process is not used more aggressively and on a tighter schedule.

  88. 88.

    Dan B

    @gene108:  Gee, I wonder why we’re all frustrated? //

    There are so many ways for the powerful to game the system and so few for the poor and minorities. It’s no wonder white people with little power fear being in the minority. They know how the current game works and the, mostly, random horrors it inflicts.

    On the other hand democracy, and any hope of justice and equal treatment, could be replaced by Trump – OAN – Proud Boys revenge led by the likes of Eric Prince.

  92. 92.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @piratedan: If you want to use the fire department analogy, it works this way.  Some of are saying we know about the fire, but we can’t put it out right unless we hook up the hose properly and we also don’t want to cross thread it so that it can’t be used at all the other fires.

  94. 94.

    dr. bloor

    @piratedan: Oh, I understand completely.  I’m in pants-on-fire mode two to three times a day.  The options all suck, and I readily acknowledge my position of comfort and privilege in life, but there’s plenty of time for civil war a little later on if trying to negotiate the crisis without coloring outside the lines fails.

  98. 98.

    Dan B

    @TeezySkeezy: Breyer’s recent statements indicate he feels like his country club conservative friends are nice to him and not white supremacist authoritarians with a propensity to go fascist when the status quo is threatened.

    I find his “liberalism” disgusting on a par with MLK’s assessment of so-called allies.

  99. 99.

    E.

    People are literally forming militias where I live. I don’t think people like Justice Breyer and the standard-issue Dem pundits are paying enough attention. I remain hopeful that something will happen and the ship will right. But I found myself telling my aged parents that I intended to stay with them (in a distant and very blue city) during the next election. I am pretty sure there will be violence here, particularly if TFG loses.

  100. 100.

    Geminid

    @TeezySkeezy: If I look at trump, Pompeo, DeSantis (assuming he is reelected Governor), or Christie, I think trump might be the weakest candidate of all. There is a lot of trump fatigue among Republicans and independents. But this is out of my hands, and I am just rooting for injuries in the 2024 Republican Presidential primaries.

  102. 102.

    sab

    Amanda in South Bay is actually a fucking talented troll. We usually dont’t fall for them, but we fell hook line and sinker.

  103. 103.

    Another Scott

    @Elizabelle: +1

    Tangentially, and not accusing anyone in this thread, but …

    Hello everybody! Your friendly neighborhood debunkers — that's us — just wanted to remind everyone again that weaponized disheartenment is a form of disinformation, and when it's being pre-emptively leveled at our institutions everyone should side-eye the people pushing it.

    — Brooke Binkowski (@brooklynmarie) October 8, 2021

    It’s true.

    We don’t have to become a monoculture and sing kumbaya, but do we really think that Garland and Biden and all the rest aren’t going as fast as they prudently can??

    (via CherylRofer)

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  105. 105.

    Frankensteinbeck

    @The Thin Black Duke: ​
    Only after he wins the primary, and Trump’s support is dropping even among the people who answer polls based on whatever they think will Trigger The Libs most. The second Trump’s boy in Texas lost, enough Republican senators ignored his orders and passed a Covid stimulus. Almost none of them like him. They like white supremacist minority rule. It was never about Trump himself.

  108. 108.

    Elizabelle

    @Another Scott:  Yup.  Disheartenment as disinformation.  Absolutely.  I miss Cheryl and her levelheadedness.

    I think you are a Virginian too, no?  What do you make of “the polls are tightening — oh noes!” in the Old Dominion re Terry Mac?  He’s still up by 4, which is the margin of error.  And isn’t that a whacking big margin of error?  (Maybe not.)

    I’m just going to get everyone I can persuade to early vote.  And will knock some doors, although nothing scheduled yet.  (Yay to Redshift, who is already out there.)

  110. 110.

    randal m sexton

    @sab: Hey ‘Teachable Idiot’, is that like a BJ class I can sign up for ?  Maybe I have to pass the ‘Teachable Moron’ prerequisite first, to sign up for it ?

  113. 113.

    Another Scott

    @Elizabelle: My gut tells me that Team D will win again, but I’m no expert.  I don’t trust the polls – they seem too easily gamed in fairly closely-divided electorates, and while VA is Blue, it’s not California.

    TerryMac is a known quantity.  The state did well under him before.  He’s run an excellent campaign.  Youngkin is a plutocrat, lies about his positions, has kooks all around him (the GQP Lt. Governor candidate refuses to say if she got vaccinated), and has TFG in his closet.  It shouldn’t be close…

    (sigh)

    There’s no reason for Team D not to continue to do well in VA, but good people have to stay motivated and turn out.  Thanks to all the good people here, and around the state, who are making that happen!!

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  114. 114.

    Elizabelle

    @?BillinGlendaleCA:   Ah, Mr. Goldman.  Missed.

    Fuck ’em.

    @Another Scott:  I worry when the GOP top of the ticket is not an obvious idiot.  Carlyle Group, Youngkin is smoother than usual.  BUT:  also a first time candidate, diving into state government at the top.

    And Winsome Sears.  Where do they find these people!

    But yeah, Terry Mac should win but take nothing for granted.  Signs don’t vote.

  115. 115.

    Josie

    @sab: ​
     Amanda is not a troll. She was here some time ago and IIRC has more reason to fear the fascist state than many of us. That could be the reason for her anxious approach to what is going on. People should take a pause before jumping on someone and maybe just remind them of the explanations that were made in the other thread. Not everyone has time to read through every thread and digest the information.

  116. 116.

    schrodingers_cat

    Grifter Wilson of the Swift Boat fame is pooh poohing the Jan 6 commission, that’s where all this angst is coming from. Doom posting generates outrage clicks for these grifters.

    Did you know that the unemployment rate fell below 5%? The COVID infection rates have tapered everywhere. And I am not doom scrolling on Twitter every night.

    Thank You President Biden and team

    ETA: Yes Amanda is not a troll, she used to comment here. I remember that nym.

  117. 117.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Josie: I also remember Amanda as a long-time commenter, I’m just trying to figure out why she got so angry: “Grasshopper”? A general comment that does not appear to have been directed at her?

  118. 118.

    Josie

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: ​
     I think she felt it was directed at her and that it treated her like a child. Actually, to me and many others here, 42 does seem to be very young, but to her it obviously doesn’t.

  119. 119.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Josie:

    I think she felt it was directed at her and that it treated her like a child

    I meant OO’s comment at @Omnes Omnibus:  as teh general comment, that she seemed to take personally, was not directed at her.

    As for the other, I’m so old I get teh “Grasshopper” reference, I remember that show like I watched it last year, if not yesterday, so it just kind of rolls off those of us of that generation, I think

    ETA: More broadly, the left in general and here in these comments, we have been way too emotionally invested in the idea of criminal prosecution, the notion that a President, or an Attorney General, can order people clapped into irons, or at the very least that an indictment automatically leads to conviction– this goes back the Obama Banksters foolishness of ’09-10 that continues to this very day.

  121. 121.

    Another Scott

    Good thread from LOLGOP:

    LOLGOP @LOLGOP

    Right now,, like today, the Democrats in Congress are debating how many trillions we should tax from the richest Americans and their corporations to make life better for working families — something that hasn’t happened in a decade and may not happen again for decades, or ever.

    8:26 PM · Oct 8, 2021·TweetDeck

    Congress almost never has a chance to do this much good. Still, it’s easy to get caught up in how frustrating it is that we’re not doing what we should to preserve democracy, fight income inequality and take on climate change. And what happens hinges on the most cynical Senators.

    But this is only happening because voters in 2020 turned out in record numbers, resulting in historic wins in Arizona and Georgia.

    That’s why we have to fight as hard as a can. We have to get beyond the media’s desire to help the GOP minimize this debate focusing on price tags.

    Anyway, it’s infuriating to see this historic opportunity drowned out by scat.

    Paid leave. universal pre-k, the child tax credit, massive EV subsidies, reforming SSI, expanding Medicare, free community college… All would be huge victories. And they’re all possible if we win.

    Eyes on the prizes.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  122. 122.

    Starfish

    @E.: Republicans are going to ban all of Young Adult literature at the rate that they are going. It is beyond ridiculous.

  124. 124.

    John Cole

    oh fer fuck’s sake you jackasses obviously I am not encouraging lawlessness and the process should be followed, but that is just it- the fucking process should be followed and Democrats shouldn’t just throw up their hands and say “I tried”

  125. 125.

    J R in WV

    I agree with Cole.

    Anyone who misses their appointment with the Jan 6th investigative committee should be picked up that afternoon by the Capitol Police / the FBI / Us Marshals (pick one) and put under the jail with no services but bread and water until they decide to cooperate.

    These people are fucking un-American monsters and deserve no consideration not required by explicit legal requirements. Sailors and Marines in the brig can be put on bread and water, why not Bannon or Dan Scavino? Under the fuckin’ Jail~!!~

    ETA:  Now I’ll read all the other inferior comments ~!!~

    ;~)

  128. 128.

    Kropacetic

    Emotions are running high even though people’s positions don’t actually seem to be in conflict.

  129. 129.

    jonas

    For all practical purposes, Congressional subpoenas are really just dressed-up “pretty pleases”. In the past, people with a sense of shame would occasionally show up out of respect, you know, for government and the like, but Trump showed us all that nothing matters. I know everyone’s evisioning Pelosi’s personal gestapo somehow going out and wrestling people to the ground and perp-walking them into the Capitol, but I don’t see how’s there’s any enforcement power here that won’t be tied up in court until long after the earth crashes into the sun.

  130. 130.

    SpaceUnit

    It is maddening to be a Democrat. It is frustrating to belong to a party that wishes to govern by the rule of law as opposed to a party that desires to rule or ruin by any means. Emotions often boil over. Mine do. And when they do we should be here to support one another.

    Good night all.

  131. 131.

    J R in WV

    OK, I still agree with Cole… I’m just frustrated by the success of the fascist traitors delaying and obfuscating. I guess I’m really good with procedure being followed, I just think the fascists should be in jail while that happens.

    Amanda, please don’t take offense, we’re just funning with you, really we are. And as a guy 70 pushing 71 pretty hard now, 42 is young and beautiful in female leaning persons. When I do the family shopping at Kroger’s all the women are young now, except for when I run into a friend, they’re mostly about my age, nearly…

    B-J and Kroger’s are my only social outlets for the past 20 odd months.

    No wonder we’re all acting out, we haven’t had any hugs or even handshakes in many months.

    ETA, g’night all !! sweet dreams…

  132. 132.

    Kay

    @schrodingers_cat:

    Grifter Wilson of the Swift Boat fame is pooh poohing the Jan 6 commission, that’s where all this angst is coming from.

    Patronizing, so points for that, but at every turn of this, every ratcheting up, there is a chorus of people here saying everything is fine and it’s not fine. I knew Trump was serious about overturning the election and I know they will be more serious, and there will be more of them, next time. Democrats either act when they have the majority or they don’t. They won’t get another chance.
    That’s not panic, it’s reality.
    You know, this place is actually the outlier- there is an entire (and large) group of election law experts, historians and long time political observers saying the system is flashing red. They’ve been saying it for a year and it gets worse every month. At this point the only people saying it’s fine are Republicans and this blog. Adam can’t even post a scenario without people telling him he’s a doomsayer, although he’s been dead on so far on the trajectory of this thing.
    I get not wanting to hear it, but that’s not the same as it not being true.

  133. 133.

    Another Scott

    @Kay: (Don’t take any of this personally.)

    The only effective thing most of us can do is to support our candidates and work to get more people motivated to vote in the face of all the obstacles that the GQP is putting up.  That means talking about the good things that are happening right now with Democrats in power, and how we’re fighting the fascists through the system.

    We all wish actions were taking place faster.  They’re not.  Politics is slow.  The law is slow.  But we have to keep pushing to win elections even when it’s slow.

    While encouraging people to recognize the dangers is important, yelling that we’re doomed is not helpful.  Anything that reduces turnout on our side is not helpful.

    We’re not doomed.

    Eyes on the prizes.

    My $0.02.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  135. 135.

    Kay

    @jonas:

    I know everyone’s evisioning Pelosi’s personal gestapo somehow going out and wrestling people to the ground and perp-walking them into the Capitol,

    I agree that they don’t seem to have any process to enforce congressional subeonas that doesn’t involve years in court, so I’m wondering what the committee plans to do when the Trump people tell them to fuck off, which they’re doing, and we sort of knew they would, since they haven’t complied with a single demand since 2016. If they can’t do anything they can’t do anything, so I guess we just wait until these people videotape themselves comitting crimes and put it up on you tube? Oh, wait, they’ve already done that.

  136. 136.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Another Scott: Yup, the only way out of Manchinema land is through 2022, making them less important. Arizona, Georgia, New Hampshire, Nevada, Wisconsin, Florida, North Carolina, even Ohio. I wish we spent more time talking about those races.

    As to Wilson: I stopped paying much attention to him when his actual work turned out to be so much weaker than his twitter/cable TV braggadocio, but he’s like so many commenters here: DEMS NEED TO GET TOUGH AND PLAY HARDBALL! What exactly does that look like? GETTING TOUGH!

  137. 137.

    Kay

    @Another Scott:

    This is no longer a political issue. It’s a law enforcement issue. The laws are either enforced or they’re not. It doesn’t have anything to do with “turnout” and if it does it’s already gone.

    If you find yourself saying “we need a bigger majority of one political party to enforce laws” you’re ceding my point. That itself is a measure of the corrosion, that there’s an understanding that if we lose one Dem Senator all bets are off. We have a better guarantee than “maybe if we get 54 Senators laws will be enforced”. That itself is a lower standard. It’s an admission of the gravity of the situation.

  138. 138.

    Kay

    @Another Scott:

    Take it down to the county level. I live in X county and I’m wondering why lawbreakers aren’t being held accountable. You tell me that in order to get laws enforced I’ll need one more county commissioner on the “law” side. That’s not an acceptable answer. I should reject that, because what that means is law enforcement is wholly political, and it can’t be. I mean, IT CAN, but that’s not our actual system- it’s a worse one.

  139. 139.

    Chris Johnson

    @Another Scott:

    This, emphatically.

    I’m suspicious of all the ‘as a diehard liberal, what I really want is all the MAGA traitors’ heads on literal pikes’ posters.

    It’s hard to remember, but civilization is more important than vengeance (and will get you more voters).

    It also seems to be hard to remember that working trolls exist who take all sides of an issue in order to push the one aligned outcome: civil war, despair and hopeless conflict. I am deeply skeptical of anyone who’s convinced we’re going to be taking to the streets. And if anyone does that I want it to be the Boogaloos and Proud Boys, cause that will go over like a fart in church. What they want doesn’t last.

  140. 140.

    Kay

    @Another Scott:

    Not only can’t I expect law enforcement, I can’t even mention it, because to do so “reduces turnout” and since I now have a wholly political law enforcement apparatus, I’ll need that additional county commissioner. Why? Because I no longer have apolitical law enforcement. That’s quite a decline in 5 years, I must say. Rather a slender reed I have been left with here. If that’s the “only” way I guess I’ll have to learn to accept it, but should I? Really? That’s a different country.

  141. 141.

    Another Scott

    @Kay: With respect, you know this is nonsense.

    In the 270 days since the January 6 attack a lot has happened on the federal law-enforcement side.

    On the voting side, former Congressman charged with ballot stuffing, bribery, obstruction (from July 2020).

    Action is being taken. Biden’s been in office less than 9 months, and much of his team for months less.

    On the non-federal side, DB – Georgia district attorney interviews witnesses on TFG’s interference (from September 2021).

    I could go on.

    You know how slow the law is.

    The law is going to do what it does. I’m not a judge, prosecutor, or lawyer. I’m doing what I can to play my part where I can.

    My $0.02.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  142. 142.

    Kay

    @Another Scott:

    I think there’s a contradiction in saying “the system is working” while saying “but if we lose one senator we’re screwed, so no one say anything!”

    That’s not our system. It’s something, but it isn’t “the rule of law”. To me John’s sentiment is the more hopeful. He’s simply asking that the justice system be apart from and above whoever happens to be in power. That’s a higher standard, not a lower one.

  145. 145.

    Another Scott

    @Kay: I’m sorry I’ve been unclear.

    Yes, law enforcement should be outside politics.  The cases I cited above are under Biden’s DOJ, TFG’s DOJ, and Georgia’s state legal system.  Those are happening outside of politics.  Biden’s DOJ is acting on voting rights with the tools they have.

    Investigations, prosecutions, and trials and sentences are slow.  They won’t all be done before we vote next month in Virginia, or next year for federal seats.  I have no control over the pace of those things or their paths.

    If we lose the majority in the House or the Senate, then progress will stall.  It would also be easier for the GQP to do even worse things in the states they control.  I can have some tiny bit of control on what happens in elections.  I can remind people that elections are more often about feelings and impressions and trust and tribalism than they are about particular numbers or policies.  I can remind people that good things have happened and will continue to happen when Democrats are in power.  I can remind people that the world is very different now than it was even 10 years ago – that history is not destiny.  I choose to do things like that.

    I recognize that many smart people are screaming that we’re going to lose the House and the Senate and the SCOTUS is going to let states invalidate our votes.  I do not accept that; because all of that assumes that the GQP will win enough elections to make that happen.  My task is to help create the future I want to see.  We are not doomed.

    Again – TFG had the courts, he had the DOJ and the DOD, he had the Senate, he had many of the states.  He lost everywhere in the courts.  He lost the election.  The DOJ and DOD said no.  His mob failed to install him as dictator.  It will not be easier for him and his enablers next time.

    YMMV.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  147. 147.

    dopey-o

    Amanda in South Bay is either an idiot or a troll. I am opting for teachable idiot, but I might be wrong. @sab:

    Porque no los tres?

  148. 148.

    TriassicSands

    @Another Scott: 

    I can remind people…

    In some cases, remind them of something to which they may never have given any thought:

    Today, it is less important to focus on the individual candidate you are voting for and more important to focus on the party that candidate will help empower.

  151. 151.

    schrodingers_cat

    @Kay:
    Calling me patronizing is like the pot calling the kettle black. Democrats are acting just not at the pace you want. You were in panic during the primaries that Bloomberg was going win the primary.
    Adam is not infallible, no one is. He was wrong about Kelly and Ronny Jackson.
    You think that I don’t know what is happening because I don’t go on and on like you do about how we are  doomed. Also the assumption that I only read Balloon Juice to form my opinions. Condescending much?

    Why don’t you try persuading more people from your demographic to vote for Ds. A demographic that voted for the Orange Tyrant in larger numbers than 2020.

    I jumped through several hoops and became a citizen to do my civic duty. I have voted D in every election and  been active in my town’s  Democratic party committee. I don’t need lectures from you nor do I need you to speak for me.

    There is no we, here. Speak for yourself and go lecture someone else. May be start with your neighbors who vote for Republicans no matter what they do.

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