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You are here: Home / Civil Rights / Criminal Justice / Finding Out (Open Thread)

Finding Out (Open Thread)

by Betty Cracker|  November 23, 202110:57 am| 99 Comments

This post is in: Criminal Justice, Domestic Politics, Open Threads

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The trial of the three goons who killed Ahmaud Arbery is wrapping up. I hadn’t followed live coverage of it until today, when I caught prosecutor Linda Dunikoski’s rebuttal to closing defense arguments. I thought she did an outstanding job of vaporizing the bullshit the defense threw out there. It sounds like the jury will start deliberations later today. Here’s hoping justice is served.

In the meantime, let’s catch up with what some of the insurrectionists who fucked around in the U.S. Capitol on January 6th are now finding out.

First up, the plea hearing for beanie-wearing Floridian Adam Johnson, who was photographed cheerily waving as he carried Speaker Pelosi’s lectern in the Rotunda:

A federal judge took aim at former President Donald Trump on Monday for lying about voter fraud during the 2020 presidential election, saying that former Vice President Al Gore had a better standing to challenge the 2000 election results but that he was “a man” and walked away.

“Al Gore had a better case to argue than Mr. Trump, but he was a man about what happened to him,” Senior District Judge Reggie Walton said of Gore’s decision to end his presidential bid following weeks of legal battles. “He accepted it and walked away.”

“What concerns me, sir, is that you were gullible enough to come to Washington, DC, from Florida based on a lie,” Walton said, “and the person who inspired you to do what you do is still making those statements, and my concern is that you are gullible enough to do it again.”

That’s my concern too. Let’s hope the eventual sentence is stiff enough to deter Johnson and other idiots from further attempted insurrections.

Last Friday, another judge called out the liar who wound these gullible assholes up and set them goosestepping toward the Capitol:

US District Judge Amit Mehta didn’t use Trump’s name, but repeatedly referred to “an elected official” who called on people to come to Washington, DC, and told them to walk to the Capitol. In some of the strongest language from the bench so far denouncing the role that Trump and his allies played in stoking voter fraud conspiracy theories, Mehta said that the man he was preparing to sentence for illegally going into the Capitol, John Lolos, was “a pawn in a game that’s played and directed by people who should know better.”

“People like Mr. Lolos were told lies and falsehoods and told that an election was stolen when it clearly was not,” Mehta said. “Regrettably, people like Mr. Lolos for whatever reason [it’s because they’re hateful and stupid — ed.] are impressionable and will believe such falsehoods and such lies … and they are the ones who are suffering the consequences.”

Lolos had pleaded guilty to one count of illegally parading, demonstrating, or picketing in the US Capitol, a class-B misdemeanor that carries a maximum sentence of six months in jail. Mehta sentenced him to 14 days behind bars — less than the 30-day incarceration that the prosecutor argued for, but more than the sentence of probation that Lolos requested. Lolos will get credit for the two days he already served in jail after his arrest.

Good for the judge for calling Trump out, but thumbs-down for the extremely light sentence. I hope Mehta isn’t as lenient when the Florida Oath Keeper goons who are on his docket eventually arrive for sentencing.

Also on Friday, Indiana resident Mark Mazza was arrested and charged in the riot after the FBI built a case against him for “illegal possession of a firearm on Capitol grounds, civil disorder, and assaulting, resisting or impeding certain officers with a dangerous weapon after police recovered his gun from Capitol grounds and video footage showed him swinging a baton at police,” according to The Indiana Star. Yesterday, TPM reported that Mazza was fixated on Nancy Pelosi:

During the interview, Mazza mentioned House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-CA), saying he “never did get to talk to Nancy … I thought Nan and I would hit it off.”

“And I was glad I didn’t because you’d be here for another reason,” Mazza added.

Then he insisted he wasn’t violent.

“I’m nonviolent,” Mazza said. “I’m a patriot, and it pisses me off to see where we’re at.”

Mazza told his kids, “I may go down as a hero,” but he’s now being held without bond. Here’s hoping he finds out what a maximum sentence for the above charges looks like.

Open thread.

 

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Reader Interactions

99Comments

  1. 1.

    The Dangerman

    November 23, 2021 at 11:05 am

    Lolos only pawn in game of life.

  2. 2.

    SiubhanDuinne

    November 23, 2021 at 11:07 am

    Dunikoski has done a good job throughout, and the defence has sucked. Also, the judge seems sane, sober, and as impartial as a human well can be. I’m a lot more hopeful for this outcome than I was in the Kenosha case last week.

  3. 3.

    mrmoshpotato

    November 23, 2021 at 11:08 am

    “What concerns me, sir, is that you were gullible enough to come to Washington, DC, from Florida based on a lie,” Walton said, “and the person who inspired you to do what you do is still making those statements, and my concern is that you are gullible enough to do it again.”

    Such nice wording for “You are a stupid, fascist pile of shit who believed an obvious conman, and I think you’d be dumb enough to try overthrowing the US government again, you idiot!”

  4. 4.

    UncleEbeneezer

    November 23, 2021 at 11:10 am

    There is a great discussion of the Rittenhouse acquittal as well as the Arbery trial on the Sisters In Law podcast. Four women with extensive experience as Prosecutors and Defense Attorneys.

    With regards to Rittenhouse, in short: they all assumed that an acquittal was very likely based on their reading of the WI law and their experience with trials and juries. They HATE that that is the case, but that is their honest assessment based on years of experience and professional, legal expertise. Anyways, it’s a really good listen and a podcast I’m gonna subscribe to.  They also cover the January 6th investigations and charges (in other episodes).

    https://open.spotify.com/episode/11dQvmdzuI2c4TZZliW98I?si=c248de0752b84bad

  5. 5.

    Jinchi

    November 23, 2021 at 11:11 am

    “I’m nonviolent,” Mazza said.

    Quote from a man who showed up with a loaded weapon at the Capitol, was caught on camera attacking the police, and admitted that if he’d met Pelosi that day, investigators would be visiting him “for another reason.”

  6. 6.

    sab

    November 23, 2021 at 11:11 am

    GA jury. We will find out.

    I am just so very sorry for Arbery’s family. Whatever is decided for these people he is still dead and shouldn’t be-

  7. 7.

    UncleEbeneezer

    November 23, 2021 at 11:15 am

    Posted this in the other thread but it was dead so here goes again, Rolling Stone has more texts from 1/6 organizers, highly suggesting coordination with the White House:

    “On Nov. 28, 2020, the day before the bus tour began, Kremer texted fellow activists in a group chat.

    “​​Welcome to the March for Trump bus tour,” Kremer wrote. “We are going to save the world!”

    Two days later, Kremer texted some of the organizers to let them know she was temporarily getting off the bus to travel to Washington for a White House meeting.

    “For those of you that weren’t aware, I have jumped off the tour for the night and am headed to DC. I have a mtg at the WH tomorrow afternoon and then will be back tomorrow night,” wrote Kremer. “Rest well. I’ll make sure the President knows about the tour tomorrow!”

    The message describing Kremer’s White House meeting is one of several where she and Kylie, indicated they were in communication with Trump’s team. Both Amy and Kylie Kremer did not respond to requests for comment on the record. Chris Barron, a spokesperson for the Kremers, called Rolling Stone to insist elements of this reporting are untrue.

    “You are printing things that are 100 percent factually untrue that we can prove are not true,” Barron said. “You are printing things that are absolutely, factually untrue and, beyond being factually untrue, for anybody who knows Amy are like hilariously preposterous.”

    Barron repeatedly declined to answer specific questions about which aspects of the story he wanted to dispute.

    The texts reviewed by Rolling Stone reveal that on December 13, 2020, Kremer texted the group to say she was “still waiting to hear from the WH on the photo op with the bus.” On January 1, before the Ellipse rally was publicly announced, Kylie sent a message to another group chat that said she was still working on the permits and “just FYI – we still can’t tweet out about the ellipse.””

  8. 8.

    Edmund Dantes

    November 23, 2021 at 11:17 am

    @Jinchi: but I was told everyone was unarmed tourists out for a tour.

  9. 9.

    Jerzy Russian

    November 23, 2021 at 11:17 am

    That Mazza dude sounds like a real asshole. The other two gentlemen mentioned sound more like stupid assholes than real assholes. I wonder if this was going through the minds of the various judges assigned to these cases:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhLqPfAylF4

  10. 10.

    Betty Cracker

    November 23, 2021 at 11:17 am

    @UncleEbeneezer: Haven’t heard the podcast, and I’m not a lawyer, but I don’t blame the jury either. It’s the law that’s the problem. It creates a situation where random yahoos can implicitly threaten violence by carrying around battle-zone weapons and then (legally!) kill people who react to the threat they pose.

  11. 11.

    OzarkHillbilly

    November 23, 2021 at 11:20 am

    “I may go down as a hero,”

    Delusions of grandeur. You get half your wish tho, you’re going down.

  12. 12.

    UncleEbeneezer

    November 23, 2021 at 11:23 am

    @Betty Cracker: Yup. It’s a great discussion about these “defense” laws and how they allow this shit to be possible and go unpunished.  They also help explain some of the judges antics.  They also explain how we need our laws to have a longer period of time consideration for causation.  Most of our laws focus only on what happens at the moment of conflict but don’t consider all the lead up that causes that conflict to occur.  In this case, all of Rittenhouse’s prior activity that led to the deadly scenario.

    They all seem pretty progressive and one woman is Black, so they are not Conservative in any sense though they do seem (small “c”) conservative in the way that most attorneys are.

  13. 13.

    Almost Retired

    November 23, 2021 at 11:24 am

    @UncleEbeneezer: Awesome, thanks for this link!  Jumping on it right now.  My list of planned morning accomplishments just got derailed.

  14. 14.

    Brachiator

    November 23, 2021 at 11:26 am

    Let’s hope the eventual sentence is stiff enough to deter Johnson and other idiots from further attempted insurrections.

    I am not sure that these dopes will learn anything.

    And it still pisses me off that GOP leaders and many conservative pundits continue to nurture this insanity.

    Meanwhile I am happy to see that these idiots are being punished for the insurrection.

  15. 15.

    UncleEbeneezer

    November 23, 2021 at 11:29 am

    @Almost Retired: Enjoy.  It’s really good.  They also discuss the Ghislaine Maxwell case.

  16. 16.

    TheronWare

    November 23, 2021 at 11:34 am

    Oh my, shows some real animus toward strong, smart, accomplished women!

  17. 17.

    JustRuss

    November 23, 2021 at 11:37 am

    “I’m nonviolent,” Mazza said. “I’m a patriot, and it pisses me off to see where we’re at.”

    Huh,”where we’re at”.  I love how these morons can’t actually say what they’re so riled up about.  And where exactly do you think we’re at, Mr. Mazza?

  18. 18.

    Nutmeg again

    November 23, 2021 at 11:40 am

    I’ve been trying not to follow too closely–there’s only so much despair I can manage.  I did catch a bit of the defense finale saying that Mr Arbury was responsible for his own death. I just can’t even, with the twisted logic and the racism.  Beyond the horrific face value of that claim is the knowledge that plenty of people agree.

  19. 19.

    opiejeanne

    November 23, 2021 at 11:42 am

    @UncleEbeneezer: Chris Barron is her spokesperson? Does he have a brother named John?

  20. 20.

    Kattails

    November 23, 2021 at 11:44 am

    I had to hop off BJ for a bit to get caught up with things, but left a group Thank You to everyone who sent such lovely comments about kitty Becca’s passing, on the earlier thread. Just wanted to repeat it here since the thread was pretty well done at that point.

  21. 21.

    Raoul Paste

    November 23, 2021 at 11:48 am

    @The Dangerman: The best movie line ever uttered

  22. 22.

    raven

    November 23, 2021 at 11:53 am

    My brother, the lawyer, was telling me how ill prepared she seemed in the cross of Travis McMichael. I was watching and was puzzled at her long delays of flipping through notes. He said you should never ask a question you don’t know the answer to and you should know exactly what you will follow up with at any answer the person gives.

  23. 23.

    Eolirin

    November 23, 2021 at 11:58 am

    Good for the judge for calling Trump out, but thumbs-down for the extremely light sentence

    Eh, the prosecution was only calling for 30 days. I’m not sure there’s a big difference between that and two weeks. It’s not great to get hung up on sentencing duration like it’s some kind of score. The effect it has on people is far more relevant, and within that we should be wanting things to err on the side of less. If two weeks can get the point across as well as a month that’s good enough.

  24. 24.

    opiejeanne

    November 23, 2021 at 11:58 am

    @UncleEbeneezer: These are the women in Sisters In Law:

    Joyce Vance, Jill Wine-Banks, Barb McQuade and Kimberly Atkins Stohr. I’ve seen the first three many times on Lawrence O’Donnell’s show, not sure if I’ve seen Ms. Stohr but if she’s with them, she’s better than just good.

    Here’s a link to a bio for each of them:

    Joyce Vance, Jill Wine-Banks, Barb McQuade and Kimberly Atkins Stohr

  25. 25.

    kindness

    November 23, 2021 at 12:00 pm

    Well, Rittenhouse’s trial will prompt other gun nuts to act out their fantasies in the future.  It’s not like those same nuts wouldn’t want to open carry and intimidate and hurt their opponents.  Certainly they would.  That vedict just pushes the envelope a little farther over to full out Brownshirt.

    The Arbury case I have much greater hopes will end in conviction.  They went hunting for a black man.  Jail will do them good.

  26. 26.

    mrmoshpotato

    November 23, 2021 at 12:00 pm

    Gym Jordan refuses to ignore these price increases like they’re students getting molested!

    Turkey prices? Up 24%Pie crusts? Up 20%Russet potatoes? Up 16%Dinner rolls? Up 15%Cranberries? Up 11% Gravy? Up 9%Sweet potatoes? Up 4%— Rep. Jim Jordan (@Jim_Jordan) November 23, 2021

  27. 27.

    TaMara (HFG)

    November 23, 2021 at 12:00 pm

    @Kattails: [[[hugs]]]

  28. 28.

    scav

    November 23, 2021 at 12:03 pm

    @mrmoshpotato: Suddenly the Sacred and Holy Free Market (Hallowed be its Name) should not be left unfettered?

  29. 29.

    Kattails

    November 23, 2021 at 12:05 pm

    @TaMara (HFG): Thank you, I’ll take them. You’ve been through it lately.

  30. 30.

    lowtechcyclist

    November 23, 2021 at 12:05 pm

    I just don’t understand why the insurrectionists who entered the Capitol aren’t all being charged with breaking and entering.  Maybe the legal eagles here can make sense of it for me.

    My non-lawyerly analysis.

    1. As the prosecutor in the Arbery case was pointing out earlier, it isn’t just the trigger guy who is guilty of murder, it’s all of them.
    2. Seems that the same thing should be true here: they didn’t all smash the windows or beat the cops in order to get in, but they all got in knowingly benefiting from those actions.
    3. So they all entered, and ISTM that, having all benefited from the breaking, they should get charged for that.  No?
    4. And dammit, there’s going to be a next time if these people get sentences that too many other similarly-inclined people think, “14 days? I can deal with that!” and aren’t scared off in the least.  Every last person who entered the Capitol illegally that day should get six months, minimum.  B&E would allow for that.
  31. 31.

    UncleEbeneezer

    November 23, 2021 at 12:06 pm

    @opiejeanne: Thanks.  They all seem to know their stuff, for sure.

  32. 32.

    opiejeanne

    November 23, 2021 at 12:07 pm

    @mrmoshpotato: Food prices started rising not long after we knew we had a pandemic. I only noticed it because I order groceries online to be delivered, and I really resent paying $2.50 for a miserable bunch of carrots, and don’t get me started on onions.

    There was a labor shortage because of Covid-19 and still is.

  33. 33.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    November 23, 2021 at 12:07 pm

    @opiejeanne:

    not sure if I’ve seen Ms. Stohr but if she’s with them, she’s better than just good.

    I don’t know about O’Donnell’s show, but she’s a frequent guest on MSNBC. She’s based in Boston, I believe, but I forget which media outlet she works for. She added the Stohr to Kimberly Atkins fairly recently, IIRC, but “recently” has become a very elastic term for me.

    Recently

  34. 34.

    mrmoshpotato

    November 23, 2021 at 12:08 pm

    @scav: I guess not.  Oh, and it’s all Biden’s fault!

  35. 35.

    lowtechcyclist

    November 23, 2021 at 12:10 pm

    @opiejeanne: I remember Jill Wine-Banks was Jill Wine Vollner back when she was part of the Watergate special prosecutor’s team.  In the wake of Archie Cox’ firing*, she took on a bigger role, and was in the papers a good bit.

    * “Impeach the Cox-Sacker!” is still one of the best bumper stickers of my lifetime.

  36. 36.

    OzarkHillbilly

    November 23, 2021 at 12:11 pm

    Open thread so, a long but very good read:

    It’s the tenth and final round, and Patrick Day is fading. He’s still circling the ring in search of an opening, but his punches have lost the switchblade quickness they had in the early rounds. If he doesn’t do something dramatic, he is going to lose this fight.

    He had once looked like a star: No. 1 amateur welterweight, Olympic alternate, undefeated in his first 10 professional fights. But boxing is unforgiving. One bad loss to a weak fighter, and the glow was gone. Now not even a comeback can restore it. Just a few months ago, he was overwhelmed by a Dominican prospect who called himself “El Caballo Bronco.” On this October night in 2019, at the Wintrust Arena, in Chicago, there is a sense that the 27-year-old Day is fighting for a good deal more than the mid-tier title belt officially under dispute. If this bout does not go well, Day’s career could be over.

    And it is not going well: Day went down in the fourth round and again in the eighth, and he’s way behind on points. “You got no choice,” his coach told him before the final round began. Either he scores a knockout in the next three minutes or he loses.

    So he presses. He jabs, then hooks, then jabs again, but his blows all deflect off Charles Conwell. At 21 years old, Conwell is everything Day once was and more: an 11-time national champion, a 2016 Olympian, a perfect 10–0 since he went pro. He is a defensive virtuoso, but he hits hard enough to crumple a body like cardboard, and even as he repels Day’s blows, he stalks forward in a spring-loaded crouch, peering over the tops of his gloves with a kind of predatory patience.

    Conwell knows that he can wait this round out. The fight is already his. But he also knows, as all boxers do, that people don’t pay to see a 10-round decision. They pay to see a knockout. Sometimes, before fights, Conwell will write himself a short note to hang above his bed. Before this one he wrote I WILL KO MY NEXT OPPONENT AND DOMINATE.

    Conwell throws a straight right and an uppercut left, and another right and another left, the punches flowing together in quicksilver combinations, and all Day can do is bear-hug him. But Conwell will not have it. He shoves Day off. Day tries to wheel away, as he has done all night, but this time his legs fail him, and Conwell is ready for the maneuver. As Day retreats, Conwell stuns him with an overhand right. Day staggers. His guard falls away. Another overhand right whistles by his cheek, but a big left hook hits him square on the chin and he collapses onto the canvas.

    The referee doesn’t even bother with the 10-count. It is clear that this fight is over. The crowd is roaring, and Conwell is pounding his chest. He vaults onto the ropes and flexes his biceps, then leaps down and flashes an electric smile.

    A man shoves his way into the ring. His voice is sharp with panic. “Get away! Get—get away from him!” Only now does Conwell turn and see that Day has not moved. EMTs climb through the ropes. Day’s chest heaves and heaves, but he does not blink, just stares glassy-eyed into the floodlights. The crowd has gone quiet. The house music plays on.

    Charles Conwell stands in the neutral corner, rocking from one foot to the other. He blinks a lot. Someone points a camera in his face. He looks out at the crowd and up toward the lights and anywhere but into the lens. He looks across the ring, where physicians are crowding around Day. One checks his watch.

    Conwell looks the way fighters sometimes do after suffering a big knockout, as they struggle to stand, desperate and uncomprehending. He has never felt this way before. He has never been knocked out, and while he has knocked out many opponents, he has never, until this fight, knocked one out cold. He looks at the body convulsing on the mat. And for the first time in his career, he is afraid.

    Can a Boxer Return to the Ring After Killing?
    Much more at the Atlantic link.

  37. 37.

    scav

    November 23, 2021 at 12:11 pm

    @mrmoshpotato: Well then, that probably means deficits suddenly matter too.  Law and Order has certainly been spotted with a goatee as well.

  38. 38.

    Kattails

    November 23, 2021 at 12:11 pm

    Don Winslow tweeted that a source of his said that “Kimberly Guilfoyle’s cell phone, text records, emails and fundraising bank records are A CANDY STORE”.

    I like this image of prosecutors just chewing their way through all these treats. Some wag in the comments posted that video of her shouting “the best is yet to come”. And, you know, nose candy.

  39. 39.

    mrmoshpotato

    November 23, 2021 at 12:12 pm

    @opiejeanne: I know.

    Seems steep for carrots.  Got an Aldi near you?

  40. 40.

    opiejeanne

    November 23, 2021 at 12:13 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: O’Donnell’s show is on right after Rachael Maddow’s, on MSNBC in the evenings. I’ve seen these women appear on other shows since TFG left the WH, not so much on O’Donnell’s show, but they were frequent guests, engaging and knowledgeable.

    Vance’s father-in-law was murdered with a pipe bomb in 1989, probably because he was involved in Civil Rights. His death influenced her and her husband’s careers as, how could it not?

  41. 41.

    opiejeanne

    November 23, 2021 at 12:16 pm

    @mrmoshpotato: I know you know, but Gym Jordan apparently doesn’t.

  42. 42.

    Betty Cracker

    November 23, 2021 at 12:17 pm

    @Eolirin: I see your point, but the rationale behind the lighter sentence pisses me off — like Lolos has very little agency because of Trump’s big fat mouth. Anyone who joined the mob that overran the Capitol should do a sentence that’s longer than a vacation, IMO. I’m usually a bleeding heart! But not in these cases.

  43. 43.

    mrmoshpotato

    November 23, 2021 at 12:17 pm

    @scav:

    Well then, that probably means deficits suddenly matter too. 

    Well, that (D) after Biden’s name on the teevee means (Deficits Matter Again) don’t ya know?

  44. 44.

    opiejeanne

    November 23, 2021 at 12:20 pm

    @mrmoshpotato: No Aldi’s, and we are lucky to be able to grow our own, so we have. We always had carrots except for the rare periods when we’re between the overlapping crops, or have just eaten them all. For some reason I had trouble with scallions this year, but more delicate things were fine. We could always find something to eat in the garden, despite this year being partially a bust.

    Working on the plan for next year’s garden.

  45. 45.

    Betty

    November 23, 2021 at 12:26 pm

    @OzarkHillbilly: I hate boxing. NFL is nearly as bad. Just brutal.

  46. 46.

    mrmoshpotato

    November 23, 2021 at 12:33 pm

    @Kattails: LOL!  And I’d forgotten about her totally deranged “The best! Is yet! To come!” (followed by snorting a small mountain)

  47. 47.

    mrmoshpotato

    November 23, 2021 at 12:39 pm

    @Betty Cracker: Same.  Good to see the insurrectionist trash getting sentenced, but so many of these sentences feel like a slap on the wrist.

  48. 48.

    Kay

    November 23, 2021 at 12:59 pm

    I’ve followed Arbery closely and I’m nervous about the verdict. One of the things I learned in Rittenhouse (and Trayvon Martin) is there are a lot of my fellow citizens who believe there is some inherent right to assume police powers and patrol, issue orders, etc.

    I don’t think this right exists. It doesn’t. I’m right and they’re wrong.

  49. 49.

    Kay

    November 23, 2021 at 1:07 pm

    A lot was said by the defense in both Arbery and Trayvon Martin about “neighborhoods”.

    Just to be clear, you have no more inherent right to assume police powers in your “neighborhood” than you do when you travel to, oh, Kenosha. Distance is not a factor.

    No one has an obligation to even know that you have assumed these fake police powers, let alone comply with them. Arbery had no fucking clue who these maniacs in trucks were. You won’t know either. That’s because they’re not real police. So not only are they assuming police powers they don’t hold, but the public has absolutely no notice that this has occurred. The shooter will be screaming at you to “stop or I’ll blow your fucking head off” (as they screamed at Arbery) and you will have no idea who or what they are.

  50. 50.

    SiubhanDuinne

    November 23, 2021 at 1:09 pm

    @Kay:

    The prosecutor devoted a lot of time in her summation explaining exactly this to the jury.

  51. 51.

    schrodingers_cat

    November 23, 2021 at 1:12 pm

    @opiejeanne: Also all the missing immigrant labor. The Orange man had turned the screws on that labor supply even before the pandemic.

  52. 52.

    Kay

    November 23, 2021 at 1:14 pm

    @SiubhanDuinne:

    Arbery breaks my heart a little because he has a history of schizoaffective – his mother once told police he had been evaluated. I think that’s why he was making the odd visits to the construction site where he didn’t take anything.

    He must have been terrified.

  53. 53.

    Mike in NC

    November 23, 2021 at 1:16 pm

    In a normal country, Roger Stone and Alex Jones would be rotting away in prison and forced to fight over a single slice of stale bread dropped through the bars of their cell.

  54. 54.

    Geminid

    November 23, 2021 at 1:17 pm

    @Kay: I hope Ohio Republicans don’t push through the permitless concealed carry law they’ve proposed (I don’t think it has passed yet). That could turbocharge vigilantism in your state.

  55. 55.

    Cameron

    November 23, 2021 at 1:17 pm

    @JustRuss: Well….YOU know….that place, that, uh, place…..you know, that place where we’re at, amirite?

  56. 56.

    The Pale Scot

    November 23, 2021 at 1:18 pm

    Hey Tony Jay,

    Boris Johnson is not unwell and has not lost his grip, says No 10

    Boris Johnson is physically well and has a full grasp on the prime ministership, Downing Street has said following his rambling speech to business leaders on Monday in which he lost his place for about 20 seconds.

    People who watched the speech Johnson gave to the Confederation of British Industry (CBI) conference were impressed with it, his spokesman argued, adding that cabinet ministers could speak freely if they had any concerns.

    The speech at the Port of Tyne, which included a vocal impression of a revving car engine and a section on the lessons for capitalism and officialdom presented by the children’s cartoon character Peppa Pig, prompted worries from a number of Tory MPs.

    Mein Gott the US media had 4 fucking years to post this.

  57. 57.

    OGLiberal

    November 23, 2021 at 1:21 pm

    @Kay: Some people are just interested in ongoing construction.  I know I am.  Why do you think in the cities when they are doing construction and they put up those plywood walls at the sidewalk they have observation holes in them every few feet. (I assume that’s what they are for)  If this guy was jogging past it and had that interest it’s not crazy for him to pop-in for a quick look.  Yes, it’s private property but nobody lived there yet and he wasn’t talking or damaging anything. (I don’t do that now but did it a lot as a kid, along with my friends)  Obviously, not a reason to die but not even a reason for these dudes to follow and harass.  Suspicious of his behavior – call the fucking cops. (of course, that may not have ended up well either but at least it’s through official channels, not via Redneck Charles Bronson)

  58. 58.

    Nelle

    November 23, 2021 at 1:23 pm

    @Kay:&nbsp I’@Kay:  I’m the daughter of a carpenter and where I grew up, in the fifties and sixties, there was a huge house building boom. We all “visited” houses under construction. What’s not to like? You can walk through walls, see how the studs are going in, imagine the configuration of rooms. Smell the fresh cut wood. Look up at the sky through the unfinished roof. Look at the pipes in place for the bathroom. Dream what life would be like if you lived there.
    And it’s my understanding that other people also walked through. Maybe they looked different?
    To me, there is something wonderful about Arbery walking through the place, a chance to dream. It’s so normal.
    Property and white men. Something that they are still trying to make this country about.

  59. 59.

    Kay

    November 23, 2021 at 1:24 pm

    @Geminid:

    It isn’t just “vigilantes” – the eventual act – that concerns me. It’s allowing this idea to spread that one group of people may patrol and give orders to another group of people without any kind of grant of state power or even notice to the citizens that they have granted themselves police powers. That’s terrifying.

    Have you ever been pulled over? The reason you voluntarily stop is because the police officer has been granted really extraordinary power and you recognize it. You consent to that. It’s so integral you don’t even think about it. This is another idea entirely. It’s radical. It says raw power is what gives them the right. The weapon.

  60. 60.

    Nelle

    November 23, 2021 at 1:24 pm

    @OGLiberal: I see that we’re on the same page.

  61. 61.

    Cameron

    November 23, 2021 at 1:24 pm

    While I agree with both judges’ opinions of Trump, I feel really uneasy about them offering them from behind the bench.

  62. 62.

    lowtechcyclist

    November 23, 2021 at 1:25 pm

    @Betty: I hate boxing. NFL is nearly as bad. Just brutal.

    Too much brain damage in both sports.  Ta-Nehisi Coates wrote a good bit about CTE in the NFL back in 2012 or 2013, and I had to stop watching football after that, knowing that the cost of my being entertained on Sunday afternoons was that a fair number of the players would suffer permanent and severe brain damage.  And I’d been a Redskins fan for over 40 years.

    People can say “they knew the risks,” but you can’t. Because nobody can really understand what it means for your brain to get messed up like that.

  63. 63.

    Kay

    November 23, 2021 at 1:27 pm

    @Nelle:

    Oh, God me too but I was a completely feral child :)

    Whole days we were in there. We even had a name for the game “new houses”. I love that smell and the big piles of sand and fill dirt.

    The state in this case kept referring to the site as an “open construction site”, perhaps recognizing that millions of people have wandered those.

  64. 64.

    Jay C

    November 23, 2021 at 1:30 pm

    @Kay:

    [Obligatory IANAL Disclaimer]

    I think you are correct: despite widespread misconceptions about the scope of “citizen’s arrest” powers, I believe Georgia law does not extend them to the general public in most cases: and certainly not in a situation like Ahmaud Arbery’s; where I have seen “misdemeanor trespass” be described as the most serious “charge” that might even be possible to levy. Assuming the McMichaels even had standing to do so, which apparently they didn’t (it wasn’t their property, IIRC).

  65. 65.

    Kay

    November 23, 2021 at 1:36 pm

    @Jay C:

    It’s central to the case. GA requires a felony and trespass isn’t a felony. The state got a really good ruling on that already. The judge basically gutted the “citizen’s arrest” defense because the “crime” was too far removed in time from the hunt and the killing. They can’t be “he once committed a crime and this is just a very delayed arrest”. No. Not buying that.

    There was a motion hearing where the lawyer for the state went nuts because one of the defendant’s was hinting that they might claim carjacking was the felony. She said “his handprint was on the truck because the defendant hit him with it!”

  66. 66.

    trollhattan

    November 23, 2021 at 1:36 pm

    Would like to see this much more often. “Consequences? What dat?”

    November 23, 2021 at 1:32 pm EST By Taegan Goddard

    “A federal judge has ordered two Colorado lawyers who filed a lawsuit late last year challenging the 2020 election results to pay nearly $187,000 to defray the legal fees of groups they sued, arguing that the hefty penalty was proper to deter others from using frivolous suits to undermine the democratic system,” the Washington Post reports.

  67. 67.

    trollhattan

    November 23, 2021 at 1:39 pm

    @The Pale Scot: ​
    “Not unwell” double-negative construction certainly generates confidence.

    BJ could well have long-haul covid, which manifests in many ways including mental.

  68. 68.

    lowtechcyclist

    November 23, 2021 at 1:40 pm

    @Eolirin: The effect it has on people is far more relevant, and within that we should be wanting things to err on the side of less. If two weeks can get the point across as well as a month that’s good enough.

    I agree with what you’re saying here, that the effect it has on people is what matters, and the minimum sentence that has the desired effect is enough.

    The people it needs to have an effect on, though, aren’t so much the mob that invaded the Capitol that day, but the like-minded people who might be the ones to try it next time.  So we’re largely talking about people to whom prison is an abstraction, and neither fourteen days nor a month is likely to get their attention, let alone scare them off.

  69. 69.

    Soprano2

    November 23, 2021 at 1:41 pm

    @Kay: As I’ve said before, I keep thinking how people would view this incident if Arbery had been a woman. Very, very differently.

  70. 70.

    Soprano2

    November 23, 2021 at 1:43 pm

    @Kay: I actually don’t think it’s that unusual for people to go inside a building under construction and look around. Evidently they had camera footage of several white people doing that too. We all know why the brothers didn’t think they were thieves.

  71. 71.

    trollhattan

    November 23, 2021 at 1:45 pm

    @Kay: Unless it was completely fenced off it’s not only an open site, it’s what we like to call an attractive nuisance and lawsuit magnet.

  72. 72.

    Jerry

    November 23, 2021 at 1:45 pm

    @JustRuss:Huh,”where we’re at”.  I love how these morons can’t actually say what they’re so riled up about.  And where exactly do you think we’re at, Mr. Mazza?

    Nah, they do state from time to time where it is that pisses them off so much with “where we’re at.” It’s usually that we’re turning into Venezuela or China or some other commie country. You know, the same statement that right wingers have been spewing since the 1930s. Every once in a while, they’ll change the script a bit and claim that we’re turning into another Greece.

  73. 73.

    Geminid

    November 23, 2021 at 1:49 pm

    @Kay: Yes, that is a different danger. I’m thinking more about people going out cruising, looking to kill other people. Picking fights and pushing arguments so they get a chance to pull out their weapon and shoot.

    Ten years ago the Republicans who controlled the Virginia legislature pushed a lot of gun rights measures through, but not permitless concealed carry. Too many people, including gun owners, just don’t like it.

    When the law was introduced this Spring in Ohio, there was reporting that at least one of the Republican legislative leaders was against it. That may be why ending requirements for concealed carry hasn’t passed yet. I’ve no doubt DeWine would sign the law. If Satan offered him another term as Governor in return for his soul, DeWine’s only question would be, are you sure you can deliver?

  74. 74.

    germy

    November 23, 2021 at 1:54 pm

    “Rittenhouse” by Portuguese illustrator Andre Carrilho pic.twitter.com/Bmlx3HJZIZ

    — peace1 ??? (@peace1) November 22, 2021

  75. 75.

    burnspbesq

    November 23, 2021 at 1:56 pm

    I still can’t figure out how the defense ended up with eleven white jurors in a county whose population is 25 percent African-American. I guess Batson only applies to the prosecution.

  76. 76.

    Roger Moore

    November 23, 2021 at 2:07 pm

    @lowtechcyclist: ​
     

    People can say “they knew the risks,” but you can’t. Because nobody can really understand what it means for your brain to get messed up like that.

    Also because nobody had really studied the risks until recently, at least in part because the NFL really wanted to avoid talking about that kind of risk. It’s like saying people who started smoking 30 or 40 or 50 years ago knew the risks. No, they didn’t, at least in part because the tobacco companies were doing their very best to obfuscate and deny. When the people creating and profiting from the risk are doing their best to hide it, you can’t turn around and blame the victim because they knew what they were getting in for.

  77. 77.

    Eunicecycle

    November 23, 2021 at 2:10 pm

    @trollhattan: to the lawyers here: are these fines appealable? Is this another case where you can just drag it out so the poor people sued never get the relief?

  78. 78.

    Betty Cracker

    November 23, 2021 at 2:13 pm

    Permissive concealed carry laws put random citizens at the mercy of the worst bullies and busybodies. The only way to hold them accountable when they kill is if there happens to be surveillance or bystander video of the murder, as happened to the cop wannabe in Clearwater who murdered an unarmed man over a confrontation about a parking spot a couple of years back.

    Open carry laws are a two-fold problem, IMO. They empower bullies like concealed carry laws do, plus they infringe on bystanders’ lives through implicit intimidation. In a country that has frequent mass shooting outbreaks, is it fair to expect people who are in a public place to assess the mental health and intent of randos walking around with massive guns strapped to their bodies?

    It will also suppress the right to assemble through implicit intimidation. Does anyone doubt next time there’s a social justice demonstration, women’s march, election rally for a Democrat, etc., in a place with open carry laws, Rittenhouse fans won’t come out of the woodwork to intimidate everyone else? It’s intolerable.

  79. 79.

    opiejeanne

    November 23, 2021 at 2:14 pm

    @schrodingers_cat: Yes. Also, a lot of immigrant labor went back to Mexico thinking to avoid the plague, the ones who could, and took it home with them.

    I read that initially Africa didn’t have a huge Covid problem because as soon as it struck, people left their city jobs and homes and went back to their villages and most did it before they were infected, before it had spread, but eventually it caught up. Now, I may have this all wrong and it could be that that initial low infection rate was because of lack of reliable reporting.

  80. 80.

    Kay

    November 23, 2021 at 2:18 pm

    @burnspbesq:

    There was a whole extended discussion of reverse Batson. The state did a good job on that part- good try. The defense were able to show to the judge’s satisfaction that the jurors were chosen for reasons other than race, although the judge made a finding that a reverse Batson analysis would/did apply.

  81. 81.

    opiejeanne

    November 23, 2021 at 2:19 pm

    @Kay: Tell me those rednecks who killed Arbery didn’t also wander through that construction site. We all know they fucking did.

  82. 82.

    The Pale Scot

    November 23, 2021 at 2:26 pm

    @trollhattan:

    Bj is no more sane than Trump. He just has is schtick down better

  83. 83.

    Kay

    November 23, 2021 at 2:26 pm

    @trollhattan:

    I love the insane amount of entitlement that says “he has to stop and explain his presence to me”.

    No, he really doesn’t. Add to that they’re armed, pursuing him in trucks and screaming at him and no one in their right fucking MIND would voluntarily interact with these people.

  84. 84.

    Another Scott

    November 23, 2021 at 2:30 pm

    In case this hasn’t been mentioned yet…

    Armed father-daughter duo march alongside anti-Rittenhouse protesters — to protect them https://t.co/fslSGeUF0e via @nypost

    — JJ MacNab (@jjmacnab) November 23, 2021

    Interesting…

    Here’s hoping that lawmakers – and the SCOTUS – realize that having increasing numbers of people – good or bad – walking around with assault rifles is not a good thing.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  85. 85.

    lowtechcyclist

    November 23, 2021 at 2:33 pm

    @Betty Cracker:

    Open carry laws are a two-fold problem, IMO. They empower bullies like concealed carry laws do, plus they infringe on bystanders’ lives through implicit intimidation. In a country that has frequent mass shooting outbreaks, is it fair to expect people who are in a public place to assess the mental health and intent of randos walking around with massive guns strapped to their bodies?

    All this, plus open carry just plain turns rationality on its head.  Someone openly carrying a gun is a threat, period.  Even if they’re not ‘brandishing’ it (I’ve never gotten a handle on that), they’re still only a few seconds away from being able to start putting bullets through people.

    But when open carry is legal, the law is saying: you have no right to view someone carrying a gun as a threat.  It’s still a threat, and impossible not to view it as one.  But you can’t call 911 (well, you can, but they’ll say sorry, it’s perfectly legal), and if you try to deal with this threatening person yourself, you’re the one legally in the wrong, whether you survive or not

    ETA: At least with even the most permissive concealed carry, the moment you see the gun, you can call 911, and they’re supposed to do something about it.  And I guess this may vary from state to state, but my understanding is that if you can see the bulge of the gun under their clothes, the gun isn’t concealed.  (I remember there’s a specific word for this, but can’t remember what it is.)  But with open carry, there’s not a damn thing you can do.

  86. 86.

    Roger Moore

    November 23, 2021 at 2:44 pm

    @lowtechcyclist:

    But you can’t call 911 (well, you can, but they’ll say sorry, it’s perfectly legal*), and if you try to deal with this threatening person yourself, you’re the one legally in the wrong, whether you survive or not.

    *Offer applies only to white people.  One of the things that’s most maddening about the Tamir Rice case is that he was in an open carry state, so there was nothing illegal about carrying a firearm even if he had one.  But because he was Black, people could claim he was threatening people with his (toy) gun and be believed, and suddenly the police could gun him down with no warning and no consequences.

  87. 87.

    Tony Jay

    November 23, 2021 at 2:47 pm

    @The Pale Scot:

    One the one hand, it was a flobalobbing shitshow from start to finish that might just mark the midpoint of Sir Slapdash Squeezecheese’s fall from power.

    On the other hand, while people are mocking the performance, they’re not talking as much about the legislation being passed to parcel up the NHS and give US Healthcare corporations controlling interests in each slice.

    Prime Minister Dead Cat is at it again.

  88. 88.

    Betty Cracker

    November 23, 2021 at 2:56 pm

    @lowtechcyclist: I’m pretty sure the only reason Florida doesn’t have open carry is the Parkland massacre stopped (or at least paused) the ongoing radicalization of our gun laws. It was the first time in my life I’ve ever seen the gun lobby lose in Tallahassee.

    Speaking of concealed carry, remember that retired Tampa police captain who killed the guy in a movie theater over an argument about texting? I recently read the trial starts in 2022. The murder happened in 2014, and the retired cop has been on house arrest (wink-wink) for all these years.

    I don’t see how justice is served when there’s a delay like that. I know accused folks have a right to a speedy trial, and that makes sense, but do the victims have to endure years-long delays?

    The man who was murdered was at the theater with his wife while someone babysat their infant, who will be a second-grader by the time the trial starts! I guess the cop’s lawyers were trying to kick the can down the road until their client died of old age. How is that justice?

  89. 89.

    different-church-lady

    November 23, 2021 at 3:51 pm

    @Mike in NC: In a normal country properly functioning democracy Roger Stone and Alex Jones would be rotting away in prison and forced to fight over a single slice of stale bread dropped through the bars of their cell.

    In some countries they’d be running the government. Sometimes we forget we’ve had it better than most for a long time.

  90. 90.

    different-church-lady

    November 23, 2021 at 4:00 pm

    I’m sure nobody here needs to hear this, but even if wandering through an open construction site is considered trespassing, that STILL doesn’t give anyone the right to summarily execute the trespasser in the street.

  91. 91.

    Chief Oshkosh

    November 23, 2021 at 4:09 pm

    @mrmoshpotato: Tough year for gravy and sweet potato farmers in Ohio.

  92. 92.

    kaywren

    November 23, 2021 at 4:31 pm

    @Kay: i have been a lurker forever, and so appreciate your comments. I am from Glynn County (where the murder was committed), and I am cautiously optimistic. I was just up there last week. I have many many people I know there who I would consider white supremists who voted for Trump and hate Dems. And many of them think Amaud was murdered, and that the shooters should be found guilty.

  93. 93.

    mrmoshpotato

    November 23, 2021 at 4:38 pm

    @Tony Jay: 

    they’re not talking as much about the legislation being passed to parcel up the NHS and give US Healthcare corporations controlling interests in each slice. 

    ? That’s fucked up beyond words.

  94. 94.

    mrmoshpotato

    November 23, 2021 at 4:40 pm

    @Chief Oshkosh: Not to mention the pie crust and dinner roll orchards.

  95. 95.

    sab

    November 23, 2021 at 7:16 pm

    @Roger Moore: And he  (Tamir Rice) was a twelve year old. The prosecutor purposely charged the wrong cop. The cop who fired did the right thing. The wrong thing was screeching in so close, so fast, before they knew what was going on. The supervisor cop ordered that and knew better. The rooky cop had to fire when confronted with a possible gun so close.

    The prosecutor lost the next election. Now he is just in the background, fucking up Cuyahoga County politics. These creeps never go away.

  96. 96.

    Ruckus

    November 23, 2021 at 7:22 pm

    @Tony Jay:

    I really hope that they don’t end up getting that. It’s bad enough that we have the healthcare system we do but asking for that is beyond the whatever. It’s like saying I have a sliver in my finger can you please cut off my arm…

    Oh and I won’t need any bandages afterwards.

  97. 97.

    The Pale Scot

    November 23, 2021 at 7:35 pm

    @Tony Jay:

    Yeh I been watching that. A good way to slough off the olds that didn’t die in the pandemic. And it might solve that dingy crisis thing. “UK? fuck that I’ll stay in Wazistan

  98. 98.

    brantl

    November 24, 2021 at 7:32 am

    @OzarkHillbilly: Boxing, MMA & Kickboxing should be outlawed, and all martial arts should be no-contact sparring. All the best martial arts schools are no-contact, as anything else results in brain function loss, as well as horrific injuries, in any practical martial arts discipline.

  99. 99.

    OGLiberal

    November 24, 2021 at 11:20 am

    @trollhattan: Different state but we had a nighttime lurker at our property in Northeast PA.  Was creeping the backyard and ran when the motion detector light went on.  Camera caught him.  Around 1AM.  Called the police and they said they could arrest him because you can’t be on somebody’s property without permission at night.  But if it had been daytime they couldn’t do anything because that’s allowed. (cop admitted it’s kind of a weird law)  Imagine that may not be an uncommon thing.

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