This was an amazing moment:
"After our last hearing, President Trump tried to call a witness in our investigation," Rep. Liz Cheney says in closing of Tuesday’s Jan. 6 hearing, adding that the committee has alerted the Department of Justice. https://t.co/rgwbFaZ6JX pic.twitter.com/uMff8NE59S
— The Associated Press (@AP) July 12, 2022
Someone in the thread downstairs said they’re tired of hearing Democrats lionize Republicans for basic shit like doing their constitutionally mandated jobs. I get that, and I don’t intend to lionize Cheney, whose views are uniformly appalling on every other topic except the Trump crime spree.
But I will note that Cheney is kind of a badass. She seems to have personally shamed Patsy Baloney into showing up by noting after Hutchinson’s testimony that if a 25-year-old assistant had the guts to testify, the White House counsel should have the fortitude to appear.
And now she just informed Trump that the committee referred his attempt to tamper with a witness to the DOJ. Maybe it’s hereditary. Cheneys can not only shoot you in the face but get you to apologize for being in front of their gun. I wouldn’t want to fuck with one.
PS: Who do y’all think is the witness Trump tried to contact? Meadows didn’t deign to personally call Hutchinson — he tried to get to her through an intermediary. Trump directly tried to call this mystery person, so that’s…interesting.
I guessed Pence in the last thread but I was only half joking.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I think she’s as much her mother’s daughter as her father’s. After all, we don’t know that Lynne never shot anybody in the face, we just know that if she did, nobody ever heard about it. Cause she’s not sloppy.
Psshh. It is only natural to admire Cheney for metaphorically stabbing these bastards in the gut, given how much we wish more of the Dem politicians had the same instinct.
@raven: Pat Cipollone. It’s a homophone.
@raven: Pat Cibollone.
Pat Si Bollone
Although it would be completely in character for Trump to rage-call someone after watching their testimony, it might not be a witness we’ve seen yet. So this is trickier than it might seem.
@MisterForkbeard: “Pets of Belonging” was another favorite.
It’s a witness we haven’t yet seen (video)
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I took that comment to be directed at some praise of Mike Pence, that I missed. I don’t know if it was part of the testimony or some cable TV talking head. Neal Katyal made a sarcastic reference to Pence getting the Medal of Freedom, and it sounded like he was referring back to what someone else had said.
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Patsy Baloney suggested that.
Phrase got good vibes.
Unsurprisingly, John Bolton remains a flaming asshole and a mendacious fuckwit.
I guess Trump is starting to learn the limits of his mob-boss approach to loyalty. When your former minions don’t fear you any more, they have no reason to keep their mouths shut about anything.
Couple real intriguing items today – one is that Steve Bannon’s prediction that ‘all hell is going to break loose tomorrow’ was shortly after he’d had a phone conversation with Trump himself. The other is that the rally organizers knew in advance that Trump was going to call for a march on the Capitol, when neither the Secret Service nor his close staff knew that.
@Ken: Right, and Cheney said the attempt was made AFTER the last hearing, so that’s probably where we should look for clues. Hmmm. Maybe the limo driver or someone like that?
BTW, someone on Twitter zeroed in on the clip the committee played during Hutchinson’s testimony of the Chevy SUV that ferried Trump to the White House after the ellipse rally and gave it the full Zapruder treatment. You can sort of see Trump’s silhouette bouncing around angrily…
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Baud: ah, that’s the Patsy Baloney I remember from the impeachment trial.
of course he tried to witness tamper.
nobody is actually surprised, are they?
All I wanted was some dots to be connected…and that happened…
the actual naming of names is FABULOUS
Whatever happened to those Secret Service guys who were going to contradict that under oath?
I wasn’t able to watch any of the hearings today because of my stupid job (I don’t just mean that because it kept me from watching, I hate it, someone hire me for remote work that doesn’t involve the phone, please kthx), but I’ve been trying to catch up on the important bits. But that clip from Cheney above is…wow. I’m not surprised, but I’m still disgusted. And honestly at this point, as far as punishment for Trump, can we just let Liz be in a room alone with him for half an hour? Tie him to a chair and give her whatever tools she would like.
Cheney is turning out to be an enigmatic figure. It’s clear she really wants to dump this on Trump who, of course, deserves it. However, she’s obviously a fairly sophisticated mind, so I wonder if she ever thinks about what made her party particularly vulnerable to Trumpism, i.e., what made Trump identify the GOP as such easy marks. After all, Trump had previously been sniffing around the edges of the Democratic Party, but his target appeared to change after Obama got elected. The kind of demagoguery Trump engages in is just a few steps removed from that of some GOP predecessors, such as Palin and Darth Cheney himself. It might be fascinating to talk with Liz Cheney off the record if you could get her to be honest.
Not a lawyer, but if the witness hasn’t appeared yet, wouldn’t Trump have an argument that he wasn’t trying to influence testimony? Not sure if the mystery person is known to have spoken to the committee.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Interesting. trump is said to have a close relationship with the two Secret Service agents involved, and a lot of people said the committee wouldn’t have made that story so prominent if they didn’t have some back-up
interesting to me that it’s someone trump thought he could safely reach out to, and that person (it sounds like) pretty immediately sent their lawyer right to the committee.
@Baud: Seems like a lot of well-deserving folks are just getting buried by the onslaught of testimony coming out of these hearings.
@Baud: A claim from the right wing puke funnel, I always rated that “unlikely.”
It’s not about the truth of the claims. All the right wing voters needed was to hear that it would happen and thus it became reality.
Didn’t they sit straight back down after Hutchinson’s recounting of what she was told was corroborated by the Secret Service?
@Betty Cracker: Honestly, I’m find with just “slightly treasonous asshole”, but I think these all work pretty well.
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: & @Baud: Yep, and the purported denials from the agents were thinly sourced. Maybe a Mr. John Barron?
@MisterForkbeard: His insufficient treason against the nation was the height of treason against Trump.
Lynne Cheney anecdote. At the time when she was head of the NEH, my collaborator and I made an application to them for a grant to support a book. We got the grant. Normally you would receive the readers’ reports in full, including both praise and criticism. This was in the pre-digital age. What we received were little strips of paper. The minion who replied to us had cut out and sent to us only the negative parts of the reports, “because praise is not helpful.” I never experienced anything like it before or since, and rightly or wrongly, I blamed Lynne.
Surely there are medals below the Medal of Freedom that we can give Pence. Maybe a Medal of Adequacy.
Open mystery boxes on YouTube or stream videogames on Twitch.
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Pat Cipollone said it.
At some level, we need to reward good behavior for people who may easily cross the line into bad behavior,
I feel like it’s akin to how we treat children. “Good job!” you pooped in the potty! Or some other task automatically assumed an adult would do.
I mean all these Republicans that didn’t break the law, while surrounded by a criminal gang are getting a pat on the back for not giving into peer pressure, like some 1980’s after school special.
I mean so many supervillain origin stories are guys trying to get along, and after trying to do the right thing and being rejected, they permanently turn to a life of crime.
Do we really want to turn Mike Pence into a criminal mastermind?
The soft bigotry of low expectations…
That’s more like it.
Movie note: On TCM @ 8 Eastern, The Best Years of Our Lives. Try not to miss the beginning (as I will) if you’ve never seen it.
I suspect we are only capable of turning him into a criminal.
I’m not a lawyer either, for the record. But I don’t understand this question. What would be the point of trying to influence a witness after they had already testified?
Hmm, Cheney says it was “a witness we have not seen in these hearings”. So how many witnesses do we know about that we haven’t seen or heard from yet? Or, was Cheney implying that TFG called a witness whose identity is known only to the committee?
That was some really compelling testimony, some top-notch stuff. I got an award for you, in fact. It’s on the bottom of the east river. I got you some special shoes to help you reach it.
@Kropacetic: Of course. But I didn’t think that was what Old School was suggesting.
ETA: Threatening someone after the fact is not “influencing testimony.”
Then why do they keep doing everything but that?
That’s my take.
The elephant in the room is that it looks a lot like the Trump PACs paying for associates’ legal defenses is merely a way to get early word on who is testifying and when so that someone can have a loyalty conversation beforehand. If Trump is making the calls himself, either nobody else wants any part of the dirty work, or it’s somebody big (or both).
@JanieM: Oh damn, I think I interpreted the original backwards.
if the witness has not testified yet, attempting to contact and influence them in their future testimony, is considered witness tampering, ( outside of a deposition),
ditto for attempting to contact a witness unknown to the Committee,
ditto for trying not o contact a witness after their testimony, in an attempt to get them to recant or change key parts of their testimony.
Hopefully they actually have Trump on a voicemail saying something incriminating. If all they have is that Trump called it will be difficult to make a case because he can (and will) say all he intended to say is for the witness to tell the truth. It would be a lie, but impossible to disprove.
The only way the phone story goes anywhere is if Trump left a message. Otherwise there are just too many bombproof excuses… “I just wanted to talk about the Yankees game” “Someone else was using the phone” “I butt dialed” etc., etc…
Well, they must have something if they referred it to DOJ.
Dense Pence, Pencil Man, meet THE ERASER,!!!!!!!!
Trump often obsesses about the little stuff and about appearances.
So my guess would be his witness tampering was to his personal secret service guy who was on his staff. Because after the last hearing there was a concerted effort to undermine Hutchinson’s testimony about Trump assaulting the Secret Service limo driver.
That story was not integral to her testimony, but there was furious pushback on that one point. I’m guessing Trump was desperately trying to undermine Hutchinson’s story about the limo in order to discredit her entire testimony.
@Baud: It was obviously from a number that belonged to Trump, but unless he spoke to somebody (directly or indirectly) I don’t know where they can go with it.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Timurid: I am dumb when it comes to technology, and the law, but how easy would it be for someone with a smart phone to record a call? they see who’s calling, or get the “please hold for President trump” as I’m sure he likes to have someone do, and hits record?
and are DC, VA and MD states where one party can record a call without the other’s knowledge? And, again IANAL, this committee isn’t bound by those kind of niceties, are they? though the DoJ might be (?)
@Baud: Maybe just a bronze (not a gold). You know, thanks for participating.
I don’t think they would refer a caller ID to DOJ.
@Betty Cracker: Yeah, I assumed it was Anthony Ornato. Someone Trump was close to and who would refute Hutchinson’s testimony. He met the Jan 6 committee at least twice and I don’t recall any video of him being presented.
@Old School: I think the ‘plausible deniability’ defense is really overwrought. The courts aren’t so dumb as to misunderstand ‘It’d be a shame if anything happened to your family’ as not being a threat if you have a motive for it to be a threat.
Cheney wouldn’t have brought it up if Trump wasn’t responding directly to a known witness.
The whole Suburban event really has been a trap. It’s hearsay, so kind of useless, and frankly trivial relative to there direct evidence given, and yet… Trump is so image conscious that he’ll commit new crimes just to clean up after that. The story puts the secret service and Ornato in a tricky spot because in order to defend against the hearsay it opens them up to answering a shitload of questions they don’t want to answer. And it’s not uncommon to undermine your own credibility by rushing in to attack someone else’s (reminded of Ed Whelan using Zillow to prove Kavanaugh couldn’t have assaulted Christine Ford, which just made him look like a fucking clown).
I’m not sure how one separates metaphorical gut stabbing tendencies, and the authoritarian mindset those tendencies require.
@zhena gogolia: The thing is, positive reviewer comments ARE helpful! It’s useful to know what we did right! Not every review/er is all that helpful (I particularly love when someone says “they didn’t talk about X” when there are pages devoted to talking about X), but even then it’s useful to see where we might need to make the argument a little differently.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
are you counting jurors as part of the courts? cause all it takes is one who manages to successfully hid a MAGA hat, literally or metaphorically, through the course of a trial
it is if you are trying to get them to recant part or all of their testimony,
I know, right? And AFTER the last hearing, with the emphasis on witness tampering and how very very illegal it is.
Jesus on a pogo stick, but that man is dumber than a bucket of hair.
My other big worry is the Bolton interview. A guy who supposedly held a grudge against Trump just fell on a grenade for him. “As someone who is an expert on awful, illegal stuff, mainly because I’ve done lots of awful illegal stuff, I’m here to tell you there’s nothing especially awful or illegal about what Trump did.” He handed the media a golden opportunity to minimize today’s news, and they’re going to pick up that ball and run with it like Walter Fucking Payton.
(To clarify above comments, everything in today’s hearing other than the phone call story was straight fire, but the MSM just got handed a chance to avoid it.)
@Baud: Bless their hearts.
Trump did it. He’s stupid and hot headed enough to call any one of the people who have testified so far. At the very least he would has his aide to place the call which is the same thing.
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: With no prep, you pretty much need an external recording device ready to go. With prep, pretty trivial. iPhone doesn’t allow you to do it on the device, Android does and there’s lots of apps. But the easiest universal solution is to get a Google Voice number if you think you might need to record a conversation. Basically it serves as a router for the call and can forward the call to as many devices as you want – but the key feature is that it can record directly into your Google Drive account – even if you are answering the call from a land line, feature phone, or iPhone.
If I were talking to the Jan 6 committee, I’d set that account up immediately.
Ghost of Joe Liebling’s Dog
“We have absolutely no problem with authoritarianism – none whatsoever!”
@Kropacetic: I don’t want anything where I have to be visible or audible by people. That’s not even a joke.
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Per LC, the person didn’t answer the phone, so there could be a message left on the recorder.
LOL! What horrible childhood that person must’ve had…
@narya: Yes, it was a ridiculous idea.
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: You can’t account for jurors. What I’m saying is that the court wouldn’t dismiss that as inadmissible. They wouldn’t dismiss is as not being evidence of intent. Juries will do whatever the fuck they want.
That would be wild, if true.
@Alison Rose : Have you considered a career as an assassin?
@Alison Rose :
I’m sure she would prefer to use her own tools, and has them in abundance, probably a gift from Daddy.
@Alison Rose : So open the boxes in silence. Maybe have some captions. Or does the desire to be off- camera extend to your hands?
What about some sort of remote data entry?
A Very Cheney Christmas.
you gotta really bust your ass for Bronze.
a green ribbon seems to be the most common “Participation trophy”.
How about a One-Hit-Wonder award.
@Timurid: Jake did respectfully disagree. I can’t imagine why CNN’s ratings are tanking under the new boss. I wonder how long it will take the principled journalists, to bolt. I think Berman goes first.
@Baud: Supposedly, it was a recording the person turned over to their lawyer who then notified the committee.
Both disgusting (because Dump is a fascist manbaby who tried to overthrow the US government after 4+ years of sucking Putin’s ass) and hilarious.
@Alison Rose :
I immediately flashed on a Person Of Interest scene. Search YouTube for “Person of Interest – Root vs Control”
first scene link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebdKJIJcIaY
title: “Person of Interest – Root vs Control [PART 1/3] (03×12)”
In part 2, Control does a Stapedectomy on Ms Shaw (Root).
@misterpuff: I think the medal should be made of lead, because it’s very dense
A Stopped Clock Pin.
Sister Golden Bear
Being the enemy of my enemy doesn’t make someone good, it merely makes them useful. And right now Cheney is proving herself to be extremely useful.
Also, too… [Gozilla “let them fight” gif]
You remind me, I should re-read Pratchett. I think Men at Arms is the one where Captain Carrot demonstrates literally that.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
ah, missed that detail. Still, easy for me to imagine oaf leaving a long, rambling message
@Kropacetic: Like operating a set of bot accounts for propaganda purposes? Another occupation that is done without any real human interaction.
Correct too frequently to represent Pence’s contribution.
Martin: I can’t personally speak to Alison Rose’s programming skills, but definitely fits her criteria.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
The Bay City Rollers Constitutional Participation Trophy Award?
@cintibud: Uranium is even more dense. It radiates the warmth of God’s love for him.
Oh come now. A person threatening a witness would have to be an absolute moron to leave a —
@Martin: Dark. I love it.
Except that in the original Italian it’s pronounce Chip O’Loanay, you linguistically-clueless medigani (scuotando la testa)…
James E Powell
I get that. Totally. Because I’m paranoid. Because I’ve been watching the way our political media works for the last 40 years. Because they would love to adopt a narrative like “Trump was a monster. We all knew it. Thank God the Republicans did something about it. If the Democrats hadn’t been so focused on defunding the police, grooming our children, and forcing schools to teach critical race theory instead of math, this wouldn’t have happened.”
I exaggerate, but not that much really.
@HumboldtBlue: I have it on good authority (one of his schoolmates) that Bolton’s been a complete ass since his days at McDonough School outside Baltimore 50-some years ago.
@Uncle Cosmo: Excuse me, this is Amerkuh!!!
Sorry, but this is not going anywhere. It is a waste of time.
The witness did not take the call. As such, you can’t prove tampering.
@oldgold: For me it was the least exciting revelation of the day.
Loved the hearing, but it’s back to trial prep.
It’s chafes me that I can’t just give the jury some popcorn and Dr Pepper, show them videos and a few carefully selected in-person witnesses, and then send them back to deliberate. Instead, I gotta deal with an irksome Judge, unnecessarily complicated rules of evidence, and a Defendant who’s actually in the room, and not just fuming at home. The system sucks!
Ooh, now let’s predict what the media will run with…
No, or at least it would be a tremendous uphill fight. You don’t get a pass on witness tampering just because the person you tampered with hasn’t yet become a witness. If you try to get them to change their future testimony, you’re tampering. And if there’s any kind of documentary evidence for the tampering, it’s likely to contain at least a tacit admission Trump thought they were likely to testify.
The Bush-Cheney administration leaned heavily into trying to vindicate conservative ideology, such as tax cuts pay for themselves, abstinence only education is effective, etc.
They failed miserably.
Couple that with the coordinated heavy reliance on big money donors, after the Citizens United decision, to flood the airwaves with negative ads, which got Republicans wins in 2010, whatever core Republicans might’ve had was totally hollowed out. They became puppets to do the bidding of whoever was contributing to them. President Obama broke something in a lot of Americans, most noticeably white Americans, and we still haven’t recovered.
They still had some supporters for trying to have a coherent ideology, which Romney and Ryan tried using to bullshit their way through the 2012 campaign. After their loss, as The Onion predicted about what Republican voters wanted:
And Trump was that white hot ball of rage Republican voters yearned for ever since 2012.
Republicans core economic ideology, since Reagan has failed. Their social agenda is counter to what a majority of Americans want.
All they have to offer their voters to feed their anger and resentment that Trump’s so good at doing. Republicans could do what President Clinton did, when the Democratic ideas of the 1960’s became unpopular, and say that was then, this now and we’ve listened to the voters and have a third way forward.
They can’t do this because Republicans are utterly beholden to the dark money folks that could pump millions into any primary challenger, or withhold their contributions come campaign time.
They have no center, so it’s easy for Trump to take over the empty husk of the Republican Party. He won an election, in 2016, that even Republicans thought would be tough for them to win. This gave Trump instant credibility with them. He showed them a way forward by focusing almost exclusively on resentment.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
My bet is is Trump is after Hutchinson because those stories of him throwing hamburgers at the wall like a child hurt him with his base. I know it sounds dumb to us but apparently in MAGA world mythology Trump is always cool and collected.
@oldgold: attempted witness tampering or intimidation is a crime.
@prostratedragon: I’ll see your opening scene (of Best Years) and raise you the final scene.
@Enhanced Voting Techniques:
Maybe he cried like a baby in the limo. That would be cool testimony.
@Alison Rose : You can watch it on CSPAN. I was surprised to hear today was the 7th hearing. I know I haven’t watched seven, so I’m going back and starting at the beginning.
It’s a bit irritating that CSPAN hasn’t made it easy (that I’ve found) by providing a list of the hearings. When I do a search even for a specific date – like the first hearing, June 9 – I get a whole bunch of other stuff and not the hearing itself. I had to google it to then find the CSPAN link for that first hearing.
Regardless, it’s a great way to view them because there are no interruptions by talking heads.
Great movie, but not at all a feel good movie.
Um….I don’t think he has the qualifications to be a criminal mastermind or any other kind of mastermind.
one doesn’t have to prove that the witness’s testimony was tampered with,
one just has to prove that an attempt was made outside of the discovery process and cross examination.
Mai Naem mobile
@prostratedragon: that is a really really good movie.
“Do we really want to turn Mike Pence into a criminal mastermind?”
Don’t you mean criminal nevermind?
There doesn’t seem to be enough there to make master level.
@oldgold: I’m not a lawyer, so could you clarify? Is there some requirement in the law that tampering involve a live communication, such that a recorded message (or a letter, or an email) isn’t evidence of the attempt?
If so it appears that organized crime has been missing a very easy get-out-of-jail-free card for decades. “Yes, your honor, I did write this letter saying that I would have the witness and his family murdered if he testified. But it wasn’t tampering, because I didn’t say that to him in a phone call.”
What do you suppose caller I.D. shows when Trump calls?
“Donald J. Trump, 45th and still President of the United States and if you don’t believe me I’ll shoot you on 5th Avenue” is hard to fit on a single screen.
@Old School: A person doesn’t have to have testified for a charge of witness tampering to be proved. Laws vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction but in Massachusetts the charge of “intimidation of a witness” – eg “witness tampering” – has three elements that the Commonwealth has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt.
I’d find Individual-1 guilty as charged.
@Jay: Sorry, the correct answer is scissors.
ETA: I make an excellent breakfast burrito that I only ever serve for dinner.
@SuzieC: True, but placing an unanswered call is not.
@Ken: Any call I decline rolls to voice mail. This is how I know seven thousand people wish to extend my car warranty.
@oldgold: I doubt that Cheney would pass it on, unless he left a message.
@Enhanced Voting Techniques:
My bet is is Trump is after Hutchinson because those stories of him throwing hamburgers at the wall like a child hurt him with his base.
Hahaha! Drumpf throwing a tantrum and hamburgers was the least surprising thing to me. I had no trouble believing that.
I am at work and missed the hearings – sounds entertaining from the comments here.
When I had a land line, trump left me a message to vote for Kelly. I got rid of my land line.
… which is a pretty egregious conflict of interest for the lawyers. See DC Rules of Professional Conduct, Rule 1.8(e).
DOJ should move to disqualify anybody who is being paid by anyone other than the defendant/witness they represent.
@JPL: We already know because of Ukraine that Trump is dumb enough to leave incriminating voice recordings.
A point here.
A lot of witnesses have given testimony to the committee investigators, testimony that we haven’t seen. (I don’t recall who those investigators actually are) We’ve seen some segments of that in the committee hearing videos. So it’s likely that we are seeing the highlights, but there seems to be a ton of testimony that backs up a lot of what we’ve heard or seen, IOW there is a lot more to this than only what we’ve seen.
witness tampering does not need to be successful to be charged and convicted.
All that is required is that an attempt was made outside of discovery and cross examination.
So yeah, a voice mail message counts.
Mai Naem mobile
@Baud: Medal of Maintaining Abysmal Goal Attainment(MAGA medal)
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
I’d bet they are still afraid of Trump and his fanatic followers. However, they might just be more afraid of prison.
@Baud: Isn’t that what the little blue pills are for?
Oh. Stopped CLOCK. My bad.
This is what Cheney said:
“After our last hearing, President Trump tried to call a witness in our investigation. A witness you have not yet seen in these hearings. That person declined to answer or respond to President Trump’s call and instead alerted their lawyer to the call.”
If that is it, there is no crime. Period.
@oldgold: You’re not thinking very clearly.
I can easily see one set of circumstances where tampering could occur within this statement.
And yet, Bill Clinton talking to Loretta Lynch for five minutes to show her pictures of his grandkids was so beyond the pale, it led to Lynch recusing herself from everything about Hillary Clinton and Richard fucking Comey being unleashed on the nation.
@oldgold: Oh, there were crimes. Just, under this scenario, that didn’t happen to be one of them.
@Kropacetic: I agree.
@Citizen Alan: Totally off topic, how is the job hunt going? I just want to hear you are landing in a Blue state, which is what I remember was your goal.
@Ken: What @oldgold means is that if ALL it was is the fact that Trump tried to call the witness but we have no way to determine content, then it’s sketchy but not illegal and we can’t prove intent or what Trump was trying to do.
There’s a lot of speculation that Trump left a voicemail, though that hasn’t been confirmed or denied.
TFG has been here before, and we all know it. Bolton running interference won’t help.
It was a Perfect Call!!1
I would go much further than this: being told what you did right is much more useful than being told what you did wrong. There are far more ways of being wrong than being right, so learning something was done right gives you more information. Of course the most useful thing of all is telling someone what the right way- or at least a good way- is when they got it wrong. “I hated this scene” is not useful criticism. “This scene sucks because the dialog never goes anywhere” is much more helpful.
@Hoodie: I’m pretty sure Liz Cheney wants the much softer authoritarianism her father and W were trying for – indefinite rule via media manipulation and manufactured crises a la the Iraq War, with bones thrown the the underclass via Medicare Part D and immigration reform so they wouldn’t face an infuriated majority.
Her concern with Trumpism is, I think, an acute awareness that full fascism is dangerous for everybody, including its supporters. Plus being aware that she was going to be on the outs with any such institution. I think she fantasizes about getting the Republican party to reject Trump’s frank fascism and go back to her preferred softer approach. It’s pretty unlikely, but even if she fails she’s better off with a cozy position with the Carlisle Group or some such than wondering when the Red Hats are coming for her, so she’s all in on defeating Trumpism.
Sister Golden Bear
There’s this thing called voicemail….
Also, what Liz Cheney did is a called a teaser. Doesn’t need to include the full details.
@Sister Golden Bear: Yes, there is. Cheney made no mention that Trump left a message. If he had, she should have said so.
Based on what she said, there is no crime. And, the idea that Garland would pursue this, of all things, is preposterous.
Rick Perlstein covered the basics of this well in The Long Con, November 2012.
TL;DR a large fraction of the US right wing base is reliably gullible, and this is exploited, for both political and financial gain.
@oldgold: So, you think the committee is telling us about everything…?
@gene108: For 4 years, I kept that onion headline as the mast head of my Facebook page. On some some level, I feel guilty over trump’s election because I challenged the gods of cruel irony.
@Kropacetic: The source for “Patsy Baloney” appears to be closed-caption software. Screenshots show other variations that are pretty great, too: Pat’s Abalone, pats if aloni, and pets of belonging.
Several days ago, a clip from the Wyoming Congressional primary debate was featured here. There were two other issues she wasn’t appalling on. She is very supportive of the support we’re providing to Ukraine, and her reaction to the Covid pandemic is no different than you’d expect from any other major public health emergency.
My take is still that until I know she’s on our side on an issue, the best course is to assume she isn’t. But I’d be curious to know what she thinks about the CRT and ‘grooming’ panics.
“He showed them a way forward by focusing almost exclusively on resentment.”
SFB is very good at resentment. He was raised on it. Bathed in it constantly. Inherited tons of it when his father died. Stole box cars of it from his siblings, because they weren’t using their’s.
He’s great at resentment, so great at it that everything else has fallen through the cracks, was thrown out with the empty crack containers, sold for pennies on the dollar. He resents that he could only steal 400 million$ from his siblings. He resents that his abilities were left in the umbilical cord. He resents that the world doesn’t recognize his genius, which is so small and insignificant that it can’t be found with an electron microscope……
Bolton to Tapper: it’s wrong Wrong WRONG for Dems to try tarring the Republican Party with tRump. It was all TRUMP! not the rest of us, no siree…
@Kropacetic: No, but in this specific regard, if a message was left, Cheney should have said so. Trump knows if he did or did not. As such, there is no reason to keep this information secret.
The Trump Presidency was awash in crime. Hell, Mueller set forth multiple instances of obstruction of justice. The idea that DOJ is going to hop on a call that was unanswered is a damn joke.
@Kropacetic: Also, the witness may not be legally allowed by DOJ to mention/share any message (if one exists) if it is considered part of a Grand Jury investigation. The witness may be allowed to testify to 1/6 Committee that a call happened, but nothing more.
Again, this is muddy thinking. There is no mandate that she do so. The quote allows for a voicemail (as well as no voicemail). You preclude too much.
Republicans have been on a natural progression toward Trump since at least Reagan. Bolton was part of the Trump administration and the next most recent worst administration in US history.
Then I consider the Romney presidential campaign, the pioneer of Trump’s “lie about everything” strategy.
No, Mr. Bolton, trash top to bottom.
@hueyplong: The wedding, or the scrapyard before? The opening frames the scrapyard nicely.
@Baud: since most of the committee are lawyers AND they have excellent lawyers working for them, I’m betting they’re pretty clear on whether it was potentially indictable.
Not that I don’t enjoy the hell out of non-lawyers all expounding for shits and giggles.
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: @zhena gogolia: Just re Cheneys, the world does not realize its good fortune in Dick Cheney not meeting Barbara Bush before she married GHWB. Barbara famously was one of the only people Nixon feared, and had Dick and Barb had a child, the Hell Mouth would have opened and the world would have ended. This is simple math.
@hueyplong: @mrmoshpotato: @Mai Naem mobile:
It’s available in full on YouTube. I was just watching it.
The House Select Committee has their own website.
My money is on Parscale as the attempted witness-tampering target.
Mr. Situationally Aware.
You don’t suppose Trump is dumb enough to have left a voice mail. Those things can appear on your phone as transcriptions.
One of my favorites!
@artem1s: Yes, they do. I just looked at it, and it also does not have (that I can find) all the televised hearings listed with links to watch them.
Seems like a serious failure to not make it as easy as possible for people to view past hearings. I pay attention and yet somehow I had no idea today’s hearing was the seventh!
Especially after today’s hearing, I want to go back to see what I’ve missed.
@Kropacetic: Relatedly, let’s set the WaybackMachine to 1987, via Robyn Pennacchia at Wonkette:
Yeah, it wasn’t just TFG, Mr. Notlob. All of the Never Trumpers who are now telling us how horrible horrible January 6 was and how TFG was and are now more than happy to dump him and return to the Good Old Days of St. Ronald and all his hangers on, well, they can take a flying leap.
@prostratedragon: Wedding scene. Gregg Toland breaking out the deep focus on the cast and you watch eyes.
It was me. I was bitching about it. Because I’m sick of it. There is no benefit gained by praising a Republican for doing the bare minimum, because they’re only doing the morally right thing because they have made the calculation that doing the morally wrong thing isn’t, at this moment, going to benefit them. Pence didn’t even come to the conclusion on his own that he shouldn’t go along with Trump’s plan; he had to call Dan Quayle (WUT) to be told he shouldn’t do it.
That said, yes, Liz Cheney is very useful right now. But she’s still a Gooper. Much like my support of Andrew Cuomo when he was the only gov’t executive not blatantly lying to us about Covid on a daily basis (although there was plenty he was lying about anyway, when it came to light), while I am glad for her now, I am more than willing to throw her back on the garbage heap when her usefulness has come to an end. Because she is not a good human being. And I’m not going to pretend she is.
@karen marie: If only someone had thought to put together a Balloon Juice post with links to all the hearings. :-)
Balloon juice Jan 6 Hearings So far
edit: I will be re-upping this post later this evening, and I have added a Jan 6 Hearings section in the sidebar for easy access going forward.
@karen marie: just search on cspan for January 6th 2021 and they all come up. That is the name of the committee and the hearings.
Ella in New Mexico
Will we ever get back to the place in time where we can give credit where credit is due to a member of the Republican party?
I’m so tired of hating people simply because of what political party they belong to. YES I don’t agree wth her on probably a shit-ton of policy issues but dammit, she and I are both fucking REAL patriots, offended deeply by this cabal’s effort to destroy everything in order to turn us into a monarchy. Why is it a crime to admire her courage and her fearlessness?
I miss the days where I stood side by side with my friends who were Republicans cheering our kids on at the soccer fields. I miss not even giving a fuck what party people belong to when you invite them over for a BBQ. I miss the days when the Republicans took down Nixon.
Isn’t this what all of us want the Republicans to be? Decent, courageous human beings who care about right and wrong? And for them to be able to recongize and respect and listen to those of us in the Democratic point of view?
Do we never want to be able to work together to make this country better or do we stay in perpetul war with one-another?
years of service pin
@Ella in New Mexico: Great comment.
@Ella in New Mexico: Agreed. We can move forward faster if we aren’t at perpetual war with each other.
@Ella in New Mexico: I am the first Democrat in my family. My Republican parents weren’t monsters. My grandmothers were a racist but my grandfathers weren’ t. And they were the guys out in the world meeting people and hiring. One of my grandfather’s sisters spent twenty years teaching in Southern Sudan. She only came home when WWII broke out. My parents weren’t monsters. We had domestic help and my mom always paid Social Security when nobody else she knew did. Not a big deal, but way above average for white people.
@James E Powell: “I exaggerate, but not that much really.”
Narrator: He wasn’t exaggerating…
Betty Cracker @ Top:
There aren’t a lot of potential witnesses Trump would deign to call personally.
My guess is that it’s Hope Hicks:
@Ella in New Mexico: “Isn’t this what all of us want the Republicans to be? Decent, courageous human beings who care about right and wrong? And for them to be able to recongize and respect and listen to those of us in the Democratic point of view?”
You don’t go to elections with the electorate you want, you go with the electorate you have.
Everyone decent has already abandoned the GOP. This is a big problem in the Democratic Party because there is no sane center-right party for decent people to land. So we keep reaching out to them because they are decent, while forgetting that they are still going to be center-right.
“Decent, courageous human beings” – does that describe anything you see from the news? “Right and wrong” does that describe any legislation _anywhere_ that has been proposed by the GOP?
Forget Republicans. By identifying as such, they tell you who they are. Per Maya Angelou, you should believe them.
Cheney’s announcement seemed to imply that Trump left a phone message – there wouldn’t be any way to know the call was directly from Trump if he hadn’t. Without a message, all the committee would know is that the call came from Trump’s phone.
So I would assume that the ability to prove witness tampering would depend on the content Trump’s message.
Pets of Belonging was a much better album than their later overproduced studio crap.
@HumboldtBlue: @HumboldtBlue: That’s because they don’t have a problem with authoritarianism. They think it’s a good thing
Paul in KY
@randy khan: Oh, Daddy! A complete set of German dental tools! Krupp steel also!
Paul in KY
@Mallard Filmore: I’m assuming you saw Game of Thrones? Maybe the character Ramsey Bolton? Well, Mrs. Cheney is not as forgiving and kind as Mr. Bolton was portrayed…
Paul in KY
@trollhattan: They keep giving me one last chance…
Paul in KY
@Ella in New Mexico: I long for those days too. Probably not coming back until we get attacked from outer space.
Paul in KY
@Ella in New Mexico: I long for those days too. Probably not coming back until we get attacked from outer space.