Not sure if this has been discussed here or not, but what were 30 members of the House Progressive Caucus thinking when they signed this letter urging Joe Biden to step up diplomacy to “seek a realistic framework for a cease fire” in Ukraine? From Le Post:
A group of 30 House liberals is urging President Biden to dramatically shift his strategy on the Ukraine war and pursue direct negotiations with Russia, the first time prominent members of his own party have pushed him to change his approach to Ukraine.
A letter sent by the group to the White House on Monday, first reported by The Washington Post, could create more pressure on Biden as he tries to sustain domestic support for the war effort, at a time when the region is heading into a potentially difficult winter and Republicans are threatening to cut aid to Ukraine if they retake Congress.
In the letter, the 30 Democrats led by Rep. Pramila Jayapal (D-Wash.), chair of the Congressional Progressive Caucus, call on Biden to pair the unprecedented economic and military support the United States is providing Ukraine with a “proactive diplomatic push, redoubling efforts to seek a realistic framework for a cease fire.”
The public pushback was immediate and harsh, and then things got weird:
this is embarrassing. they are now having to explain what the letter meant or rather try to interpret it in such a way as to make it make sense after signing it. there are some very impressive signatories. They shld have read what they were signing. https://t.co/7zm4CjUHiX
— Josh Marshall (@joshtpm) October 25, 2022
It’s pretty obvious that Putin is pinning his hopes on the West losing its nerve, and the timing is not just bad in relation to conditions on the ground in Ukraine but also in the context of the political situation in the U.S., where Kevin McCarthy recently took a break from measuring curtains in Pelosi’s office to hint that his caucus will yank the rug out from under Ukraine if they take power. So why now?
One signatory, Rep. Pocan, says the draft was written in July and notes that the Post coverage used an illustration that suggests the signatories held a press conference about it yesterday, which they did not:
Not sure why it’s dated 10/24 as it was from July. Its intent is that we strive for a ceasefire, and leave the option of punishing Putin for the invasion. The reaction in some press is making it out different than an ask for more peaceful approaches in July. I don’t get timing…
— Mark Pocan (@MarkPocan) October 25, 2022
Okay, but still: why send this letter a few weeks before an election that is taking place within the larger context of a transnational hard-right movement that is intent on knocking over democracies worldwide? It makes no sense.
It’s not that the text of the letter(s) is objectionable — everyone who isn’t in Putin’s corner wants Russia to stop bombing, kidnapping and killing Ukrainians (which could happen today on the say-so of one man — Putin). Many of us are anxious about a cornered-rat tyrant with nuclear weapons, and we’re nervously watching the war’s effect on energy and food markets.
But again, why was this letter necessary now? The follow-up “explainer” reaffirms signatories’ commitment to Biden’s stance on Ukraine, i.e., that Ukraine is a sovereign nation that makes its own decisions. That affirmation erases the rationale for sending the letter at all, let alone in late October.
If this letter is about appeasing so-called tankies, it crosses the boundary from embarrassing to downright disgraceful. I have a ton of respect for some of the folks who signed the letter, including Reps. Jayapal and Raskin, but this seems like a giant self-own at the worst possible time — for everyone.
Open thread.
PST
Good morning. I voted yesterday. Wheee!
Baud
It’s been discussed. But probably deserves a dedicated post.
Baud
@PST:
👍
zhena gogolia
The text of the letter is objectionable. It implies that negotiations are to take place between US and Russia.
Obvious Russian Troll
I just mailed in my vote for the federal election in Wisconsin. What the hell, Mark?
NotMax
Read. The actual. Letter.
Modern day iteration of Churchill’s “it’s better to jaw-jaw than to war-war.”
zhena gogolia
I was wondering about that picture the WaPo used. Not fair — it looked as if Jayapal and Raskin were holding a press conference ABOUT THIS.
But still, this was idiotic if not downright dangerous.
zhena gogolia
@NotMax: No. No. It gives no agency to Ukraine.
lowtechcyclist
The best fate for this letter would be for it to die quietly and affect as few votes as possible.
PST
Although I agree that the letter is deeply regrettable, if the administration declines to pay meaningful attention to it the whole business will probably be forgotten in 48 hours. I’m going to do my best to ignore it.
Gin & Tonic
It was probably half of Adam’s thread last night. Mr Lobster called them the “Chamberlain 30,” and he’s not wrong.
If Pramila Jayapal cannot control her caucus members, she does not deserve to be a leader; if she actually led this effort, she does not deserve to be a Democratic Congresswoman.
I’ve probably said enough in several threads on this.
Gin & Tonic
@NotMax: Both ZG and I (and others, I’m sure) read the letter yesterday afternoon and have been commenting *based on its text.* To suggest otherwise is insulting and, frankly, surprising from you.
oatler
@NotMax:
Get the villain monologuing.
matt
I guess they thought the difference between Democrats and Republicans on the issue was getting too clear.
Josie
@NotMax:
The point is that it matters who is doing the “jaw-jawing.”
ETA: And I did read the letter.
Baud
So I don’t understand. The letter was written and signed in July but just delivered a couple of days ago?
MazeDancer
Write PostCards.
It makes everyone feel better just by doing it. Really.
Get addresses, just click on my nym. Or go to PostCardPatriots.com
Dorothy A. Winsor
As the election nears, it feels like the whole country has fallen into hysteri
ETA: And yeah. What MazeDancer said.
Baud
@Josie:
Yeah, one can recognize that the letter is bad and also that the WaPo article about the letter is worse.
Betty Cracker
@zhena gogolia: I think it does give agency to Ukraine — both the original and the follow-up suggest that any negotiated settlement would have to be approved by Ukraine, which is why I don’t understand the point of the outreach. The letters also acknowledge the difficulty of dealing with a ruthless aggressor like Putin, etc.
My objection is the timing and the performative nature of sending the letter at all. Do they think Biden is missing an opening? There must be ways of pointing that out that don’t signal faltering U.S. resolve — especially when Ukraine has Russia on the run and the GOP is poised to slash aid.
E.
Wait, the photo with Ruskin et al around a podium supposedly holding a press conference about this letter yesterday was actually from some other event? That is some egregious media malpractice if true. I have been raging about this since I first saw it. And puzzled by it as it is so objectively idiotic.
RAM
Can’t anybody here play this game?
Betty Cracker
@E.: According to Rep. Pocan, yes — the illustration is from an unrelated event. Here’s the photo caption:
I agree that’s misleading as hell.
Baud
@E.:
Via Reddit, apparently the BBC digitally changed the color of a folder that Sunak was carrying from red to green to emphasize the story about climate change. Also apparently, the digital manipulation was not explained to viewers in real time.
Mimi haha
If Josh Marshall could use a shift key I might read what he types
Gin & Tonic
@Betty Cracker:
That clearly denies Ukraine’s agency. That is “go sit at the kids’ table while the adults work it out.” Ukrainian Twitter is brutal on this, *because of its substance* and not because of its timing or effect on US domestic politics.
MisterDancer
I think it’s rat-fucking, and the Progressive Caucus got caught in it. Josh did a Members-Only article on it this AM, following up on that Tweet. I’m noting this from near the end of the article:
I think we all underestimate how much of what comes out of Congress is built on the words of outside groups. It would not shock me to think this was, indeed, something they were working on, with various levels of approval/agreement, and then “somehow” it got public w/o everyone’s agreement on same.
But I sure do think the Progressive Caucus needs to deeply re-assess working with these folx.
I would recommend a skim of Wikipedia’s article on this Quincy Institute, esp. the Controversies section, in light of the fact that said Institute’s initial funding includes “half a million dollars each from George Soros‘ Open Society Foundations and Charles Koch‘s Koch Foundation.” — as well as, in fairness, more normal sources of funds.
glc
@Gin & Tonic: We do in fact continue to have direct engagement with Russia.
As we should.
MattF
I think the motivation for the letter is oddly similar to the RW talking point that money going to Ukraine should be spent elsewhere. It’s a pretty standard ‘progressive’ trope and the confused response to criticism shows a big gap between rhetoric and reality. It’s also true that lefty politics has a long history of pacifism.
Josie
@MisterDancer:
I agree with everything you wrote here, but the fact remains that these 30 people allowed themselves to be manipulated and actually signed the letter. I hope they read stuff more carefully in the future.
ETA: There is a big difference in Ukraine agreeing to a negotiated settlement and actually initiating and doing the negotiations themselves.
J R in WV
Last?
At least I hope so.
SHIfT keys issues I’m not aware of, mostly because I don’t follow whatshisname’s work at all. There’s no there there, if you see what I mean.
Happy Tuesday, all !!
ETA: Wife tells that story of an AP photog who set up a photo montage of a voting booth on the beach in Miami, FL. There was photoshop-type work involved, and the photog was fired by the end of the work day for “faking” a photo.
The changing of colors of a folder being carried by a top goernment official is way more fake, and could be cause for terrible outcomes, as different colors of folders bear different meanings. Red-Green? Who knows what that could mean to a foreign power’s analysts?
The Moar You Know
Now we know who else Russia is paying.
This should not really come as a surprise. They were surely going to try and take all facets of the political spectrum.
Betty Cracker
@The Moar You Know: Oh come on. Do you really think Raskin is on Putin’s payroll? They just fucked up, IMO. Like when they endorsed Nina Turner in Ohio.
azlib
I read the letter and I found it to be pretty bland. It does reaffirm support for our current efforts and clearly a diplomatic solution is better than a prolonged war. But why release it now or at all when the media as usual takes its contents out of context? As Josh Marshall points out, it is a bit of a muddled mess. It is not politically a good look for the Progressives.
I have heard Pramila Jayapal speak and I was very impressed with her political acumen. In this case I think she made a mistake and should have known better than release this letter.
Omnes Omnibus
@The Moar You Know: Oh fuck off. It is perfectly possible to make a mistake without being in the pay of Putin.
FWIW I am with the people who think that this not at all helpful but also not a huge problem. Others MMV and clearly does.
Baud
@MattF:
I’m somewhat sympathetic to pacifists because war is terrible. But for me, being opposed to war generally is different than assigning responsibility for particular wars (including the responsibility to end the war). When the latter occurs, the point of view is pure political speech and not entitled to special solicitude as pacifism.
A Good Woman
Paraphrasing here but “When you have to explain you’ve lost the game.”
Jayapal is, I hope, smart enough to figure that out. Maybe the clarification was inevitable given the pushback. Regardless, damage done and more talking points for the Russians.
Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg
Trying to figure out what those negotiations would yield.
Russia: “Quit supplying weapons and financial aid to Ukraine regardless of how we treat it and recognize our annexations.”
US: “No.”
There is no possible middle ground that permits agency or any guarantee of safety to Ukraine, regardless of the utopian dreams of radical pacifists.
MisterDancer
That’s not a leap I’m ready to support, to be very clear. We already know — hell, one of my front-page posts goes into this! — that the Koches were eager to support Russian interests w/o, one assumes, them getting paid by Putin.
At least, not directly. But yes, we have direct reporting on how thinktanks funded in the main by Koch money have generated multiple articles pushing for reduction/elimination of sanctions. That another thinktank funded (at least in the past) partially by Koch money seems to be pushing the Progressive Caucus in this direction should, to me, be more than concerning enough.
Baud
@azlib:
That’s my take too. You can look at different pieces of it and reach different conclusions about the intent. It’s unusual because progressives are usually sharp with their rhetoric, but this letter seems like it’s trying to appease irreconcilable constituencies.
OzarkHillbilly
@Gin & Tonic: TBH, I’d be fully in favor of direct engagement with Russia’s forces if it wasn’t for the dire possibility of it ending in nuclear war. Oh, wait a minute… That’s not what they are talking about, is it?
Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg
@MisterDancer:
I seem to remember that a president who warned of potential foreign interference in American political processes through unfettered donations was mouthing contradicted by the Supreme Court justice most interested in the Citizens United opinion….
rikyrah
Good Morning Everyone 😊😊😊
Baud
@rikyrah: Good morning.
Tony G
@Josie: These are 30 adults who have chosen a career in politics — nobody put a gun to their heads and forced them to be congressional representatives. If they ““allow themselves to be manipulated” into signing something like this, then it’s time for them to resign and find some other way to make a living. WalMart is hiring.
PST
@Baud:
Seemed that way to me too. It’s wishy-washy pacifism. I am at least glad that such a small part of the party’s congressional delegation signed on. The consensus position is far different. Democrats in congress are mostly unflinching supporters of standing behind Ukraine. Republicans are a different story.
WaterGirl
@Betty Cracker: I agree with you on timing, Betty. Even yesterday something about this seemed fishy, and now finding that this was written in July, but announced now?
There is an ulterior motive here, and it is not in support of Ukraine or in support of the Democratic party.
Maybe someone is banking on this being an October surprise?
Belafon
I get the impression the letter was sent in July. It’s been leaked by someone, probably a Republican, right before the election.
Frank Wilhoit
1) This is a colossal messaging botch.
2) If (as some people have insisted with great vehemence) you read the thing sideways, its actual content may admit benign construction. But the actual text never matters. Only tone and provenance and timing matter.
3) Did I mention that this is a colossal messaging botch? Oh, I see that I did; never mind.
4) SecDef Austin has it right: Russia must be reduced to a condition in which it cannot project power externally. (The only forthright statement by any American politician in the past ___ years; each of you may fill the blank with your own figure, I can’t quite decide upon mine.)
Jeffro
Good morning folks and happy Tuesday!
Looks like the Post – well, one of its writers, anyway – has finally arrived at a conclusion that Balloon Juice reached, oh, a decade ago:
Just Because The Parties Both See Each Other As a Danger, It Doesn’t Make Each of Them Right
IN OTHER WORDS…(you see this coming, right?)…if you and your date want to go out to dinner, and you want Italian, and she wants tire rims and anthrax…
japa21
@WaterGirl:
If they are, someone is going to be very disappointed. Most people will not even be aware of this letter. It is a very weak October surprise.
japa21
@OzarkHillbilly:
I am almost to the point of saying, let’s take the chance. Almost.
WaterGirl
@Frank Wilhoit: Did you forget to mention that this is a colossal messaging botch?
Geminid
@Belafon: Yesterday the Progressive Caucus’s website and Twitter account very enthusistically praised the letter, and that makes me think this was not a Republican leak. I also was surprised that those sites were pushing a letter that ~67 members of the caucus did not sign.
There is a story here, about why the letter was made public when it was. I think we’ll know more soon. But a lot of damage was done.
Geminid
@MisterDancer: You make a very good point.
Bobby Thomson
Asking for a ceasefire right now – when Russia is losing badly and does not have enough time to evacuate its soldiers and weaponry – is transparently a pro-Russia move. Follow the money. Justice Democrats are underwritten by dirty Putin money, same as the Republicans.
Shame on Raskin.
Omnes Omnibus
@Bobby Thomson: Calling for a cease fire?
Bobby Thomson
@Betty Cracker: you are too kind. Not all, but at least some of them are definitely chaos agents – useful idiots at best.
Bobby Thomson
@Omnes Omnibus: Yes.
The Moar You Know
@MisterDancer: so, in other words, they aren’t direct payments so we shouldn’t go there.
Well, they didn’t look like direct payments to Trump and Company at first, and if not for some blabbermouth Congresscritters, nobody would have made the connection for quite some time.
Think I’ll stand by my statement. Indirect payments will turn into direct if they haven’t already.
And thank you for not just telling me I’m an idiot as some others have. I already know I’m an idiot, but damn, it doesn’t take much brains to put this together
This was not a “mistake”. A mistake is when I fail to put enough stamps on the envelope.
Tony Jay
@Baud:
That’s the BBC for you, always going that extra mile to ensure that Milord remembers his hat and gloves and has his shoes polished to perfection.
Recall a few years ago when Flobalob turned up at the Remembrance Sunday wreath-laying hungover and staggering, the BBC ‘accidentally’ went into its archives and replaced that years footage with a less embarrassing clip from the year before?
It’s just who they are, and with the flood of Tory donors to senior positions they’ve got worse.
rikyrah
@PST:
YES YES YES
Bank those votes.
rikyrah
The letter was a whole azz clown move, no matter when it was actually written.
Madeleine
I read the letter quickly last night and more carefully just now. The impression I had last night before reading much BJ commentary remains. Urging direct negotiation with Russia treats Ukraine like a junior partner as the US negotiates for the US (we have the right, they seem to think, because of our investment in the war), the world, and little Ukraine. (Ok that’s a bit exaggerated.) American arrogance at work.
I hope the letter will disappear, but I doubt it. It serves Republicans arriving this to the election and it supports Putin’s ends as well, given the current dirty bomb lies.
Betty Cracker
@Geminid: Personally, I think it was a regular old cock-up rather than a sinister plot. It probably won’t affect voters in the U.S. much if at all, but it’s useful fodder for Republicans and Putin, which isn’t good for Team Democracy.
Paul in KY
@Geminid: Must be an internal power struggle between the Progressive Democratic Caucus and the Caucus of Democratic Progressives.
Gin & Tonic
@Belafon: The letter as released carries an October 24 date.
Bobby Thomson
@Paul in KY: splitters!
Eduardo
As angry as most anybody here with this but not surprised at all — sigh
OzarkHillbilly
@japa21: Seeing as it wouldn’t be me or mine on the line… Yeah, I would never vote in favor of that. Now sending Seal Team 6 in to assassinate Putin and all his cronies…
Yeah, my inner Tom Clancy is coming out this morning.
Kay
@Madeleine:
It’s worse than that, as a frame for negotiations- it validates Russia’s whole narrative on the war – that it’s just a proxy US/Russia conflict- two superpowers, which is exactly what Russia wants. Idiotic to give them that- there’s no reason to make such a huge concession. Of course Russia won’t negotiate with Ukraine. They don’t accept that Ukraine is a sovereign entity.
Biden will never do it, and he shouldn’t – it’s stupid.
kindness
I really like almost all of the Progressive Caucus members but that letter was an unforced error. What were they thinking? Were they thinking (strategically) at all? Looks to me like the answer to that is absolutely not. Even my own people are dumb shits once in a while.
Southern Goth
Maybe it’s worth mentioning that if the GOP takes control of the House (likely) and/or the Senate (not as likely, but still possible), they will, at a minimum, take aid for Ukraine hostage for cuts to other programs.
japa21
@Kay: And Biden is definitely not stupid.
PST
@rikyrah: Chicago is certainly a pleasant, easy place to vote. Lots of early polling places and plenty of time to do so. Good, auditable voting systems. I feel guilty when I see all the hassles people go through in locations that are trying to suppress the vote.
zhena gogolia
@Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg: Well put.
catclub
progressives in the US have been the only group to ever vote against US engaging in war ( see Iraq I and II). If Trump not starting any wars and aligning the GOP with Russia has the GOP voting against warlike things in Ukraine, it will be a first.
zhena gogolia
@Kay: Bingo.
Edmund Dantes
@Paul in KY: pikers
Progressives democratic caucus of democratic progressives is the one true group.
catclub
@Betty Cracker:
Is Kevin McCarthy going to start saying he agrees with the Democratic Progressive caucus? I have my doubts he can use it.
Formerly disgruntled in Oregon
@Baud: Sure. But no letter, no article about the letter.
Unforced errors give ammo to your adversaries. (And yes, WaPo is an adversary)
sab
Thank God Tim Ryan didn’t sign it.
I wish it was easier to find the 30 names, because 67 didn’t sign it and will still be blamed.
catclub
CNN doom and gloombots.
ok here is the headline:
but the first line of the article is:
So actually prices are still rising in August, just not quite as fast as in July.
Geminid
@Betty Cracker: I don’t think it was a sinister plot either. At least not by all 30 signers. It could be some staffers acted without authorization. The Representatives themselves seem to have been taken off guard.
@catclub: JD Vance could use the letter. It tends to undercut an issue Tim Ryan has gotten traction on.
Baud
@catclub:
One of the frustrating things for me has been seeing media reporting about how both increasing home prices and decreasing home prices are bad.
UncleEbeneezer
@Kay: Yup. This is one of the grand themes that Timothy Snyder mentions in his excellent lecture series The Building of Modern Ukraine. It’s a very old ploy to claim that “our country is real and has been forever but their country isn’t” as a justification for war. I wouldn’t be surprised if this did come from Russia and percolated up to these Reps via groups like Amnesty International and Code Pink. I’ve seen people I know in those circles echoing this framing along with “Kyiv/Crimea have always been part of Russia” since the very beginning.
Baud
@Geminid:
Maybe. I’d imagine Ryan would relish the chance to slam the Progressive Caucus.
Bupalos
What this underscores for me is that there are a lot of people, both left and right, who simply do not understand what the ukrainians are facing, and do not understand the relation between putinism, “great power” determinism, and the decay of democracy woldwide.
Also that a lot of horseshoes reside in superblue states and districts. People like AOC have greenwaldian horseshoes shouting at them 24/7 and are liable to the mistake of seeing that as a coherent worldview.
schrodingers_cat
All the members of the so called Squad are among the signers. Whenever Ds get their heads slightly above water they emerge to drown us. They are our tea party. We ignore their shenanigans at our own peril.
Last cycle it was the “Defund the Police” slogan.
schrodingers_cat
@sab: I had linked to it in an evening thread yesterday.
Here you go
Geminid
Progressive Caucus member Ruben Gallego had a good response to the letter. The central thrust of the letter was how damaging a prolonged war might be. Gallego said:
Betty Cracker
@catclub: McCarthy probably won’t say jackshit about it before the election because he’ll be too busy blaming Biden for inflation, fuel costs, crime and the looming Love Boat reboot. But unless he’s terminally stupid (admittedly a possibility!), he’ll probably try to use this as a wedge issue if he gets his grubby mitts on that gavel. We know McCarthy is fine with elevating people who are ideologically and/or financially aligned with Putin in his caucus. He’s all but said so out loud
@Kay: Excellent points.
piratedan
tbh, I think it’s typical GOP ratfucking….
multiple reasons….
Bupalos
@catclub: “Even my enemies agree on this one” is one of the more potent bits of political rhetoric out there. Not to mention it shows them where to set the wedge.
Big fucking mistake, take it from someone working east european events in Ohio. We can rebrand the party with lots of poles, hungarians, and slovaks here. Its an issue that can outrun racism and anti-woke with lots of folks we’ve given up on. But not if it isn’t a firm values-based committment.
Geminid
@piratedan: Yeah, but the Progressive Caucus website and Twitter account were talking up the letter as soon as it was made public. They were not taken by surprise, like some of the signers seemed to be.
Reboot
@lowtechcyclist: Merci! Totally agree.
schrodingers_cat
These so called progressives have never been serious about foreign policy. With this letter they have shown the influence the tankie left has on them.
According to the tankies there is only one evil in the world and that is the United States everything else pales in the significance to this big bad. That is the guiding principle of all their simplistic blathering on foreign policy.
So in this worldview Putin can’t be the aggressor it is the US because it wants Ukraine to join NATO. I recently saw some tankie takes simping for Gaddafi. The cheering section for this ideology is global because it is easy to hate on the US since it is large and in charge. It is sad to see our elected representatives fall for this nonsense.
Bupalos
@piratedan: To me, your #1 makes it worse, not better.
TheTruffle
At least this letter probably won’t register outside the wonkosphere.
Baud
@schrodingers_cat:
It occurred to me that one reason tankies have an affinity towards Republicans is that America under the GOP is closer to what the tankies believe America is all about.
MisterDancer
You’re not an idiot, no! your point is not totally off; I just put the emphasis elsewhere.
Let me clarify why. I think we’re in this mess, in no small part, because the Conservative Movement put a lot of money into letting a thousand smelly flowers bloom. Remember how Feminists got co-opted by the Meese Report-era anti-porn efforts? That was an early swipe of the kinds of shit we see, today, with everything from the Green Party to “BLM” Twitter bots to, yes, “Leftist” anti-Trans efforts like Rowling in the UK.
I submit we really misunderstand these efforts, and don’t pay enough mind when they do pop up into the sunlight. I strongly suspect this is one of those moments, and it would do “us” a world of good to pressure “the left” on why they are working with this org.
That’s the kind of direct questions that can slow down, maybe even stop, otherwise well-meaning people from allying with corrosive asshats. I say this, because I watched it happen to my own Mom, and I’ve seen it play out, over and again, since.
So, for me, the point is very directly to call out an issue I think folx can put pressure on, today — so that we can strive to avoid that final state you rightly point out.
Matt McIrvin
@kindness: Like I said in the other thread, I think they’re thinking in terms of being generically “anti-war”, and of suspicion of mainstream US positions on foreign policy (very much including US Democrats) that was hugely reinforced by the Iraq war. The online left has a strong “everything the US does is wrong” streak that feeds into this.
Baud
@Matt McIrvin:
I’m not going to suggest Dems have always been perfect, but if Dems don’t trust Dems, then we can’t expect normies and independent voters to trust Dems
ETA: Iraq reminds me of trade deals. For some reason, Dems get hammered about them far more than the GOP does.
schrodingers_cat
@Baud: Interesting take. You are right.
The Moar You Know
@MisterDancer: so much better put than I. This is exactly my concern. I’m not that old (mid-50s) but old enough to have watched Dems get clowned OVER AND OVER AND OVER again into signing on for stupid shit that blows back on us and costs us elections (as well as just being the wrong thing to do) and this is a textbook example of that.
Cameron
I’m all in favor of US-Russia diplomacy, if it’s about nuclear weapons. They’re the two biggest arsenals in the world for these, and the last 20-30 years have basically seen almost every agreement tossed out. That’s diplomacy I can get behind.
But negotiating on behalf of Ukraine? When Ukraine hasn’t publicly requested that (and is pretty unlikely to do so)? No – they’re the people whose country is being devastated, and if they want negotiations with Russia, they should be the country leading those negotiations.
Alce_e_ardillo
@Josie: While not absolving them of any responsibility– don’t they have any staff that can read and understand the implications of such things? The fact that it got put on their desk for signature speaks of a failure of vetting at best, and internal sabotage at worst. The progressive caucus may have a lot of crypto-Tankies in their offices
Baud
@Alce_e_ardillo: If signatures were unauthorized, you would think the Reps would have said so by now and fired the staffer involved.
zhena gogolia
@schrodingers_cat: They always miss the little point that UKRAINE WANTS TO JOIN NATO. Nobody forces a country to join NATO.
Baud
@zhena gogolia: Only
Demsthe USA has agency.schrodingers_cat
@zhena gogolia: In their worldview no country has any agency except for the dastardly United States.
schrodingers_cat
@Baud: GMTA.
Geminid
@Alce_e_ardillo: At least three of the signers are members of the Democratic Socialists of America. I expect they have some crypto-tankies on their staffs. But it’s the Progressive Caucus’s staff that seems to be implicated in this mess.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@The Moar You Know:
@MisterDancer:
I have to say, I’m with Omnes and others in that I don’t think this letter will affect very much at all or really register, knocking on wood. It was 30 Reps out 216 or 217 in the House Democratic caucus. It wasn’t even a majority in the House Progressive Caucus, despite including some of the leadership
ETA: That isn’t to say I don’t think they shouldn’t get blowback for this. I do think we need to be careful about giving this more oxygen though
randal m sexton
@Josie: I think the idea of encouraging the ‘jaw jawing’ is preferable before the boots and tanks cross borders. Its too late for that, now the applicable churchillian quotes are the ‘never surrender’ ones. I think the Ukrainians proper cease fire condition is that they will stop shooting if the Russians leave.
Matt McIrvin
@Baud: Part of modern liberalism is, I think, to rate trust and loyalty relatively low as values. Our animating stories are about family members and authority figures becoming abusive; the tribe too easily becoming a lynch mob; heroes standing on principle even if it means cutting ties with friends and relations. It’s the left’s version of American hyper-individualism. The idea that if family asks you, you’ll help them hide a body no questions asked, isn’t really there.
And even if those priorities are in the right order, it creates problems, because organized collective action requires some level of trust.
Bill Arnold
Here’s the letter, and the list (extracted manually from the pdf) of “progressives” infested with weaponized Russian brain worms names.
letter
Pramila Jayapal
Earl Blumenauer
Cori Bush
Jesús G. “Chuy” García
Raúl M. Grijalva
Sara Jacobs
Ro Khanna
Barbara Lee
Ilhan Omar
Ayanna Pressley
Sheila Jackson Lee
Mark Pocan
Nydia M. Velázquez
Gwen S. Moore
Yvette D. Clarke
Henry C. “Hank” Johnson, Jr.
Rashida Tlaib
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
Mondaire Jones
Peter A. DeFazio
Jamaal Bowman, Ed.D.
Marie Newman
Alma S. Adams, Ph.D.
Chellie Pingree
Jamie Raskin
Bonnie Watson Coleman
Mark Takano
André Carson
Donald M. Payne, Jr.
Mark DeSaulnier
Kay
I was an “open schools person” but how quickly schools reopened doesn’t seem to have made much difference in these test scores. Maybe the harm to kids from the pandemic was much bigger and broader than school being closed?
Eduardo
@schrodingers_cat: YES
Baud
@Matt McIrvin:
I agree. Our side often lacks the confidence to trust beyond a relatively close knit group. IMHO, that culturally tic is anathema to the goals we say we want to achieve.
Another Scott
If the letter really was drafted in July, it coming out in the end of October really does seem strange and an own-goal.
State.gov has a collection of updates from May-July which gives some context.
Talking got grain exports going again. That was important. Etc.
I see nothing on Jaypal’s and Raskin’s Twitter machines about this. With any luck, it will be forgotten before Friday.
Cheers,
Scott.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Kay:
It’s actually interesting that in the case of California where reopening was slower, test scores were still slightly better than those that reopened completely in late 2020. It’s not significantly better, but still something
JML
Progressive Caucus has (like most relatively large groups) some outstanding people in it and some clueless twits. And some of them aren’t terribly sophisticated about foreign policy and I’m sure their inclination towards peace and so forth has been making their feet itch the longer this war has gone on. This one was a mess. It’s not a terribly coherent letter in the first place (taking several positions all at once) and not understanding that a cease-fire hugely benefits only one side in all of this: Russia. They simply don’t understand how this works.
Some of them might be sympathetic (or liable to get “paid” indirectly; there are some grifty ones in the ProgCaucus too, sadly) but mostly they just want money going to social programs rather than weapons. Which I get in theory. but Putin’s Russia cannot be appeased.
Tony G
@Bill Arnold: There’s something that still doesn’t make sense to me. Why release to the public, now, a letter that was drafted back in July, before the eastern and southern Ukrainian offensives of August and September, and before the bullshit “referendums” to led to Putin announcing he annexation of the Donbas territories? A letter, in effect, that was drafted when the situation on the ground was very different. Why the delay? Why now? Either these people are very stupid and/or there’s something very toxic going on here. There are obviously a small cohort of American “leftists” who contend that the Democratic Party is the greater of two evils because Republicans “heighten the contradictions”. Are these “progressives” also trying to tank the Democratic Party?
Baud
@Tony G:
Good questions, but I’d rather the story go away than dig into it.
schrodingers_cat
@Baud: Don’t worry if this story goes away they will find some other stupid slogan/issue to latch onto.
Betty Cracker
@Kay: We’re sort of used to this undercurrent of death and disease now because we’re adaptable creatures when there’s no choice, but I can still remember how horrifying and dystopian the pandemic felt in the early days. It scared the shit out of me, and, having raised a teen, I don’t scare all that easily. It must have been incredibly frightening and dislocating for kids.
Gin & Tonic
@piratedan:
Jesus H Christ, the letter is dated October 24. How is that “not recent”? It’s irrelevant whether there was a draft circulating in July, it was published with 30 signatories *yesterday.
schrodingers_cat
@Gin & Tonic: Gotta make excuses for their faves.
zhena gogolia
@Gin & Tonic: In July before the counteroffensive it would have almost have been worse.
Chyron HR
Cool, cool, so exactly how much territory does the Squad think the US should cede to Russia in the cease-fire?
Andrya
@NotMax: Churchill also understood that it was useless to negotiate with a maniacal dictator bent on genocide. He opposed the Munich negotiations in 1938.
@Betty Cracker: I have to disagree that the letter gives Ukraine agency. That’s like the dissertation advisor of a grad student suggesting a sexual relationship “but only strictly voluntary, of course”. The power imbalance- Ukraine is very much dependent on American-supplied weapons- is such that there would be an implied threat if the US said to Ukraine “there, we’ve negotiated a cease fire, how about it?”
And, it’s very important right now a cease fire is very much in russia’s interest and very much not in Ukraine’s interest. Right now russia’s military is off-balance, their command structure is unstable, their supplies are extremely depleted, their supply lines attenuated, and they are so desperate for soldiers they are putting completely untrained men into the front line. (Literally, less than a week between being dragged to the draft office to arriving at the front lines.)
A cease fire would give russia a breather to fix these problems and get in shape to re-attack (which they would). It’s in Ukraine’s best interest to follow up right now while the russian military is in bad shape.
It’s also critical for Ukraine to get maximum success and gain maximum territory NOW against the possibility that the Republicans take the House (aid to Ukraine would be severely decreased, if not ended) and the possibility that the Republicans take the presidency in 2024 (TFG would throw Ukraine under the bus in a heartbeat). A ceasefire would waste this critically valuable time.
The letter shows an appalling naivete in the reference to “security guarantees”. From whom? putin? His word is garbage- he has broken it again and again and again. (Besides, russia already guaranteed Ukrainian territorial integrity, in a deal where Ukraine gave up their nuclear weapons.) From the US? No Republican president will honor that.
MisterDancer
What I’m saying isn’t about attacking the Progressive Caucus directly, or even via media surrogates. Plenty of folx here and elsewhere willing on that, and I don’t need to add to that.
I would ask you re-review my comments here, and specifically my last clarification to Moar, in that light.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@MisterDancer:
I’m confused. I didn’t mean blowback so much as “attacking”, but questioning them like how you mention here:
Although, I am still leery about giving this more oxygen. I hope I’m making sense?
Will
This is why I am leaving Rep blank in voting Nov. CPC acolyte managed to win the primary. It’s a safe seat so my protest means nothing, but I don’t approve of their brand so they won’t get my vote.
Kay
@Betty Cracker:
My own teen was not in good shape. We bickered constantly because he stopped doing his school work and was just horrible to me. Rude. I ended up getting him online counseling, which seemed to help. He’s a completely social being- it was like he got smaller when his world contracted. “Diminished” is the word I kept thinking of.
He’s 2nd year in college now so he got through it, was lucky to be almost done with school when it hit, but I think middle schoolers are the most fragile age- I wonder how they’ll do going forward.
ARoomWithAMoose
@Will: in some places (depends on the state and the vote tabulation machinery used) undervotes are counted as spoiled ballots, and only reconsidered an a recount situation (which may need a the vote to be close enough to trigger it). Note that means OTHER races you are voting on on that ballot may not get your vote (spoiled ballot) unless the recount threshold in that other contested race is reached.
Vote every race, if you can’t decide between candidates, flip a coin, or do a write in.
Bill Arnold
@Kay:
Maybe it was in part due to brain damage(/cognition issues/brain fog) caused by SARS-CoV-2 infections?
The data is (are) available for proper large retrospective studies looking at variations in school closings, COVID infection rates, NPIs, vaccines, and perhaps including other countries.
Feathers
And the letter has been withdrawn:
twitter.com/AaronBlake/status/1584948418643755009
Gin & Tonic
@Feathers: Too little, too late. That chicken can’t be unfucked.
Mike Furlan
“what were 30 members of the House Progressive Caucus thinking?”
They were thinking about how it always solved the problem when they gave the school bully their lunch money, until the next day…
Bill Arnold
@Feathers:
Not entirely; the PDF link still works (as of 30 seconds ago).
Will
@ARoomWithAMoose: Thank you, hadn’t thought of that. Glad I posted here so that I didn’t make a mistake. Guess I shall have to write myself in!
Gin & Tonic
Another ass-covering by a signer of that stupid letter:
Don’t these people know how to read
ETA: And the letter has still not been withdrawn.
Tony G
@Mike Furlan: Hmm. I just re-read the letter (that was drafted in July). It contains a lot of nice-sounding words and phrases, and it might have made sense in January — but it fails to take into account that none of Putin’s actions in the past 8 months indicated that he is a trustworthy negotiating partner. To use the inevitable, cliched Hitler analogy — a negotiated settlement with Hitler in July of 1940 that did not include, at a minimum, a withdrawal of German troops from France, Belgium, The Netherlands and Poland, would have been idiotic.
Baud
OT. Socialism in support of fascism.
dmsilev
@Gin & Tonic:
They seem to being saying it’s withdrawn, and have thrown nameless “staff” under the bus:
bupalos
@TheTruffle: Current headline on WAPO:
“Liberals urge Biden to rethink Ukraine strategy
Democratic lawmakers’ letter calls for direct U.S. talks with Russia”
ByRookorbyCrook
@Will: I rarely post and mostly lurk, but this BS. Voting is not performance art. Every vote matters, even in ‘safe’ districts. Who is the audience for your leaving blank? No one sees or cares. Vote because leaving a blank is akin to voting for MAGA or others.
Baud
@dmsilev: If true, said staff needs to be fired. That would be an incredible breach of trust even on a less important topic at a less critical time.
Gin & Tonic
@dmsilev: But it is still available on progressives.house.gov, both as a full-text PDF and as a “News” item. The only thing under “News” is Jayapal “clarifying the position.” I mean, go look for yourself. Even in the “clarifying” news item, they actively link to the letter. The word “withdraw” is not used in any form.
NotMax
@Baud
Down Brazil way –
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@bupalos:
So what?
Baud
@ByRookorbyCrook: Yah, I agree. It’s not even one of the signers.
Geminid
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): I’m also leary about giving this matter too much oxygen. For one thing I think that before long we’ll know more about the process by which the letter came out when it did. And we’ll have plenty of time to hash out general party general issues the matter raises in a couple weeks.
I’m not very worried about the impact of our debate here in the wider world, though. I think that for better or for worse, what happens in Balloon Juice stays in Balloon Juice.
MattF
Raskin has withdrawn support for the letter. So, good.
UncleEbeneezer
@Baud: I think this is it, in a nutshell. BothSides-ism applied to Foreign Policy.
zhena gogolia
@MattF: I guess if there’s any silver lining, they must have gotten huge pushback from their constituents. So awareness extends beyond BJ.
Will
@ByRookorbyCrook: I see and I care. We get pissed at Republicans for pulling the lever for fuckshits like MTG. If you want to argue Be Like A Republican, then by all means, you have the floor.
Baud
@MattF: I find it a little odd that the letter is pitched as a CPC letter when only 30 members signed on.
Baud
@Will: YMMV, but this mistake of a letter does not rise to the level of MTG.
MattF
@zhena gogolia: Speaking as a Raskin constituent, I was on the verge of calling- deterred only by the suspicion that he’d be getting lots of calls.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Baud:
That is weird
Baud
@zhena gogolia:
While it’s hard to unring the bell, I definitely prefer it when politicians back down in response to justified outrage rather than double down in a demonstration of machismo.
Omnes Omnibus
They are heretics. Let’s burn them at the stake.
Will
@Baud: You’re correct. Other things have gotten me to the point where this one put me over the edge.
theturtlemoves
@Bill Arnold:
DeFazio was on that? Damnit. I usually like him. What the hell?
Noskilz
I think it was intended as a positioning thing: “diplomacy is important and cool” without actually having to do anything about it. Not a very well executed idea, and one they should have skipped, but also slightly odd to freak out about something that promises nothing and says they won’t do anything the Ukrainians aren’t cool with.
Gin & Tonic
@Omnes Omnibus: Huh. Looks like you and I can agree on something.
pacem appellant
@MattF: Ro (“F”ucking) Khanna, my rep, got an earful from me. And Jayapal has withdrawn the letter. Good!
Next step, un-screw the pooch. (Not holding my breath for this one)
Andrya
@ByRookorbyCrook: No audience for refusal to vote? I disagree. Much though I disagreed with the elder President Bush (and I did not vote for him either time) I respected that he said about the 1991 Louisiana governor’s election “don’t vote for David Duke (the Republican candidate) because he’s a Nazi”. That left it open whether to vote for the Democrat (Edwin Edwards, also hugely morally compromised), do a write-in, or not vote at all.
In the November election, I will be faced with my current Representative, Ro Khanna, an exceptionally unrepentant signer of the infamous letter, or a Republican, or a write in. I’m going to write in Mike Honda, the previous representative of my district (he is 81 years old, and I doubt he wants the job). In 2016, Mitt Romney announced that he was going to write in his wife rather than vote for HRC or Trump. (He said his wife, Ann Romney, would make a great president.) I would never have voted for Romney in a million years, but he gets my grudging respect.
And is there no audience for refusal to vote? My Rep, Ro Khanna, is going to get a letter from me explaining that I will not vote for him, and I will support any primary challenger in 2024. He may or may not be interested.
cain
@Baud: Both sides! Horse Race!
Geminid
@theturtlemoves: I wonder what exactly it was that DeFazio and the others signed on to, and when. I think we’ll know more before too long, even if Jayapal and others want to put this behind them.
Will
@pacem appellant: Ro’s name being on there felt like a giant gut punch. I’ve been a fan of his, ordered his book. That glowing Politico puff piece about him and American manufacturing I emailed to everyone. He had potential. Unfortunately, it’s little things like this that trip up a lot of “could have been greats” in future primaries.
zhena gogolia
@Noskilz: That is a paternalistic attitude.
cain
@Kay: I read this as – “hey, it was good to be safe, we protected teachers and student health and it didn’t make a difference in the quality of their education if we made schools open early”
DaBunny
@Gin & Tonic: Now on progressives.house.gov/news:
(my emphasis)
NotMax
@DaBunny
(signed) Emily Litella
//
MattF
@NotMax: Oh, Gilda.
Betty Cracker
@DaBunny: Good. Here’s the text for anyone who cares to read it.
Mike Furlan
@Tony G:
Sounded persuasive in April 1941:
“France has now been defeated; and, despite the propaganda and confusion of recent months, it is now obvious that England is losing the war. I believe this is realized even by the British Government. But they have one last desperate plan remaining: They hope that they may be able to persuade us to send another American Expeditionary Force to Europe and to share with England militarily, as well as financially, the fiasco of this war.
I do not blame England for this hope, or for asking for our assistance. But we now know that she declared a war under circumstances which led to the defeat of every nation that sided with her, from Poland to Greece. We know that in the desperation of war, England promised to all these nations armed assistance that she could not send. We know that she misinformed them, as she has misinformed us, concerning her state of preparation, her military strength, and the progress of the war.” speeches-usa.com/Transcripts/charles_lindbergh-america.html
Geminid
@Betty Cracker: I’ve seen people blaming Jayapal for throwing the CPC staff under the bus, but in this case they seem to deserve it. The CPC website and Twitter account were praising the letter immediately, while the members who signed it were silent- at least until Rho Khanna came out for it. The staff also talked up the organizations supporting the letter including MoveOn.org, but that outfit disclaimed it. And the 67 Progressive Caucus members who did not sign apparently were left in the dark.
I would love to know what Ruben Gallegos had to say about this to caucus leaders. But I can wait until after the midterms.
dnfree
@zhena gogolia: That’s the first thing I noted about the letter. Why is it calling for BIDEN to negotiate with Russia to settle the war? It is offensive, and I have to say I’ve lost a lot of respect for congressional progressives based on both the contents and the timing. Idiotic. Is there an internal power struggle? If so, keep it to yourselves.
Citizen_X
I don’t even know what this refers to, no matter when in time it was written:
Assuming they’re referring to the situation in the early summer, it was “pivotal” when Russia abandoned the strike on Kyiv and started to focus on the east? I mean, they did a little better pushing westward than with their presumed lightning strike on the capitol, but it was obvious that they were doing so with numbers and matériel decimated, and with logistics in chaos. For which they are paying dearly right now.
But the CPC makes it sound as if Russia had turned their fortunes around and were winning, or at least firmly in control of the East. Which was not true then, or now. It sounds a little like stanning for Putin.
dnfree
@NotMax: I did read the actual letter. It seemed to me to promote the idea that Biden and Russia should jaw-jaw and settle it.
schrodingers_cat
Blaming this incredibly tone-deaf and ill-considered letter on the staff is the height of ass covering. They signed it in the first place, what were they thinking.
Geminid
@Citizen_X: It wasn’t the CPC. It was 30 of its 97 members.
Gin & Tonic
@DaBunny: Took a while. But I’m glad they got to it.
Maybe we don’t have to burn them today, regardless of what Omnes may recommend.
Citizen_X
@Geminid: It was enough members that I had previously admired, like Grijalva, Pressley, Raskin, and Lee.
ETA: Fine, make it “these CPC members” instead.
schrodingers_cat
@Geminid: Their chair signed it. That is a bad look.
Geminid
@schrodingers_cat: I’m not sure they signed that letter, at least not in the form it was released. Maybe Raskin will explain. Someone needs to.
And from what I see, one or more staff members should be fired. It could turn out that Jayapal authorized the release, but right now I think someone on the CPC staff pushed this out, maybe at the urging of some caucus members.
pacem appellant
@Will: He’s my rep, but he knocked out Mike Honda to take the seat. I haven’t forgiven him for that, and he’s done nothing to earn my loyalty since. In addition to this, he is a supporter of woo peddlers and sticks up for tech-bros.
One day, I hope a better Dem comes along and sends him packing. Meantime, I hold my nose when I vote.
Geminid
@schrodingers_cat: Yes, and the way the caucus website and Twitter account promoted the letter made it seem like the whole caucus was behind it. That’s one thing that made me suspicious of the process behind this affair.
Betty Cracker
@Geminid: If it’s true that staffers released that document without the members’ knowledge — apparently months after some folks signed off on it, after things had changed dramatically on the ground, and after the letter was edited to reflect recent events — those staff members should be fired. Today. Regardless of what any of us think of the letter’s content, it’s a no-no to go rogue like that, cause an international incident and embarrass the bosses.
buggrit
@Will: Are you seriously trying to tell me that the dem candidate is just as bad as the rep? Get all the way out of here with that bullshit.
Chetan Murthy
@Geminid:
Given how many influence operations the Russians are running all over the planet, it’s probably wise to investigate the staffers who released this letter to make sure that they’re not Russian dupes. Some of you might have seem that Norway just winkled out a Russian “illegal” masquerading as a Brazilian, at one of their universities.
schrodingers_cat
@Geminid: Blaming this on the staff has a very dog ate my homework feel to it. Sounds just as credible.
WaterGirl
@Baud:
YES!
dnfree
@ARoomWithAMoose: I would like a specific example where a state or locality treats an undervote as a spoiled ballot and doesn’t count the votes that are on the ballot. That just sounds implausible to me. There are plenty of people who vote only the top races, or who in a school board race that will have three winners, vote only for the person they most care about winning. I’ve never heard this statement made.
WaterGirl
@MattF: I don’t see anything in that from Raskin that explains why the hell he signed that in the first place. Sorry Jamie, I use to respect you, but that’s not good enough.
Jamie has a big hole to climb out of, and he dug it for himself. I hope he doesn’t have presidential ambitions, because he has shown himself to have very poor judgment. Truly disappointing.
WaterGirl
@Betty Cracker: How does an “unvetted” letter get signatures?!!?!??
*picture this is all caps, red, and flashing.
David 🌈 ☘The Establishment☘🌈 Koch
I blame the postal carriers for delivering the letter
Geminid
@schrodingers_cat: I am not at all a Jayapal fan, but I’m curious and I want to know more. And like I’ve said, the component of the CPC staff that runs their website and Twitter account seemed very prepared for the letter’s rollout and the members who signed it did not.
dnfree
@Will: I don’t think that’s accurate. You don’t have to vote in every race anywhere I’ve ever heard of. Many people vote only for top offices, or select only one candidate in a school board race that will have three winners. (Why boost the vote count of your favorite’s competitors and maybe allow one of them to defeat your choice?).
I have skipped races all my voting life, either for the reason you give or because I am not familiar with the candidates. Write-in votes are more work to process, and won’t generally be counted if the person voted for hasn’t declared they’re a candidate.
MattF
@WaterGirl: I think politicians can and do lose their way— it’s happened on the Right for nearly all of them. And it can and does happen on the Left as well— in case anyone thought it wouldn’t or can’t happen, guess again. Raskin is used to dealing with RW dummies, maybe he thought the applause was his property, something he would always get, whatever he did.
jefft452
“If this letter is about appeasing so-called tankies, it crosses the boundary from embarrassing to downright disgraceful”
I have been accused of being a tankie myself
Not true, but i could understand how you could plausibly justify your claim
and even I say – Fuck the tankies!, all aid to Ukraine!
(the real “tankies” were pro Soviet, not pro Russian)
Tony G
@dnfree: Jaw-jaw and settle it — and peasants (the people of Ukraine) will have to accept whatever the big guys agree to. Yeah, that’s a great idea.
Elie
@Betty Cracker:
I dunno Betty — something here just doesn’t smell right. These are not political novices. Like even back in June this wasn’t the right thing to do — and now no one knows how this was released, blaming some pro forma office staffer from somebody’s ???’s office. Really? Extremely embarrassing and just plain stupid. Who or how did this get set up? Jayapal says she accepts responsibility but is she the responsible party or are they covering for a bigger problem?
Scout211
The Progressive Caucus withdrew their letter.
Tony G
@Mike Furlan: Hah. Charles Lindbergh. An interesting and appalling character — a truly heroic figure as an aviator who was also a supporter of Nazi Germany. I imagine that he spoke for a lot of Americans who either supported Hitler because of anti-semitism (which was widespread) or who just wanted to stay out of another European war only 23 years after the previous one. One of Hitler’s many big mistakes was declaring war on the United States right after the U.S. declared war on Japan. FDR — to his credit — directed most of the American military resources to the battle against Germany, in defiance of American popular sentiment. In those days long before the internet, a leader could do something like that and get away with it politically.
Tony G
@jefft452: Yeah, but some “lefties” in the U.S. act as though Putin — a capitalist fascist if there ever was one — is a contemporary versions of the Soviet “leaders”. Very strange and despicable people.
WaterGirl
@MattF: Yep. Your reputation is something you can lose at any time, if your behavior warrants it.
Gin & Tonic
Raskin issues a solid statement of support for Ukraine.
jefft452
@Tony G: Yep
David 🌈 ☘The Establishment☘🌈 Koch
sounds like Nancy SMASH read them the riot act
Elie
@David 🌈 ☘The Establishment☘🌈 Koch:
Would she really need to do that for Raskin and Jayapal?Really? I somehow doubt it — Something “jes aint right” about this whole thing — some October Surprise skuldugery by un-identified actors?
Geminid
@David 🌈 ☘The Establishment☘🌈 Koch: And the blunt Ruben Gallego probably cussed them out. I expect Progressive Caucus leaders got an earful from the rest of the caucus members too.
jefft452
@Mike Furlan: “Sounded persuasive in April 1941”
@Tony G: “directed most of the American military resources to the battle against Germany, in defiance of American popular sentiment”
Public opinion shifted drastically after the fall of France, just look at the change in tone of news reels, not to mention Hollywood
PJ
@Baud: And that vision that Republicans and leftists share is government as a vehicle to reward their friends and crush their enemies.
Geminid
@jefft452: Public opinion shifted enough after the fall of France for Congress to enact a draft. There was backsliding, though and the draft was renewed the following year by only one vote in the House.
PJ
@schrodingers_cat:
@schrodingers_cat: As others online have remarked, this seems just like the kind of idiocy that Ro Khanna would engage in to please his Silicon Valley
investorsdonors (Thiel, Musk, Sacks):twitter.com/Convolutedname/status/1584966698591227905?cxt=HHwWgsDUpZO09_4rAAAA
Nettoyeur
@Betty Cracker: The Czechs were asked for input st Munich too. Then it was ignored. So much for junior partner agency in a great power negotiation. The US should tell Vova that if we wants to negotiate he has to call Zelenskyy. Period.
PJ
@PJ:
See also: twitter.com/Convolutedname/status/1584967290092544001?cxt=HHwWgoCjqcrW9_4rAAAA
Bill Arnold
@jefft452:
Sure, but the Russians (re-)invaded Ukraine, with tanks. Lots of tanks. So OK, not Soviets, but definitely tanks. Many of them (ex) Soviet tanks.
Bill Arnold
@Gin & Tonic:
The doc link still works, though. Not sure how to best handle that; deleting government records of any sort is bad form, but it could be fronted with a page that says it is has been withdrawn and that includes a link to the original pdf.
jefft452
@Bill Arnold:
Tanks? TANKS? Those aren’t tanks
The T-34 is a tank!
The mighty armored fist of our beloved Comrade Stalin!
…..
Oh wait, forget I said any of that
😊
Bill Arnold
@PJ:
That’s interesting.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ro_Khanna#Combating_international_anti-Semitism
(Another few sentences at the link.)
Somebody perhaps a bit addled by sophisticated/honed/weaponized, albeit some of it sort of true, anti-antisemitism propaganda directed at Poland and Ukraine.
They should direct more of their attention at Viktor Orbán and other ultra-right(/fascist) European leaders/parties. (Poland is kinda bad to be clear, from my several friends with family ties to Poland.)
Bill Arnold
@jefft452:
There’s a running joke in mil-twitter about when we’ll see T-34s deployed by Russia to Ukraine. It necessarily presumes a secret very-well-mothballed stockpile of T-34s.
jefft452
@Bill Arnold: even not well mothballed and Putin will be deploying them
I half expect to see Whippets and Mk IVs from the civil war pulled out of museums
NotMax
@jefft452
“Whippet? Whippet good.”
//
schrodingers_cat
@PJ:@Geminid: Ro Khanna was promoting this stance on Ukraine in his PBS interview last week. And he defended it again yesterday.
Geminid
@schrodingers_cat: Well, Rho Khanna’s been on my distrusted list for a while now anyway.
Politico put up an article about this affair a few hours ago. One of their (unnamed) sources said that Jayapal authorized the release of the letter yesterday. I suspect that whatever the truth is her Democratic colleagues are going to know. Some of the signers are described as pretty mad about how this went down.
Chris T.
@MisterDancer:
That’s what I smell here too. Someone did something in July that someone else was able to “leverage” (as the business people say) into damaging Democrats today.
Elie
@Geminid:
And rightly her colleagues SHOULD be… What a f–k up. She set her reputation back (for me anyway), a great deal if this is verified.
Paul in KY
@Edmund Dantes: The PDCDP are a bunch of splitters I tells ya!