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You are here: Home / Politics / Republican Politics / Is Our Democrats Learning?

Is Our Democrats Learning?

by John Cole|  January 31, 202311:14 am| 206 Comments

This post is in: Republican Politics, Republican Stupidity, Republican Venality

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Signs point to yes:

this is called setting the terms of the public debate and not just naively going into things assuming republicans are operating in good faith https://t.co/ykoDolsSyr

— Oliver Willis (@owillis) January 31, 2023

From the looks of it, President Biden has learned from the past and is, in the American tradition, refusing to negotiate with terrorists (which in a way is bullshit- we negotiate with terrorists all the time and you should talk to the fuckers if you can achieve a good outcome, but there is no reason to engage with the domestic terrorists known as the GOP). There was a good piece in NBC News the other day about this:

In 2011, after faltering debt limit negotiations with House Republicans brought the U.S. to the brink of economic calamity, President Barack Obama and Vice President Joe Biden sat by the fireplace in the Oval Office, with their top aides on the couch. While relieved at having narrowly averted disaster, they were stunned by what had transpired.

Obama and Biden made a vow: Never again.

They agreed that going forward, “Nobody can use the threat of default or not increasing the debt limit as a negotiating tool,” said a former Obama official involved in the fiscal discussions, who recounted the Oval Office meeting and the “lesson of 2011” they all discussed. “It made you hold your stomach. You couldn’t believe you were at this situation,” the official said.

The U.S. had just suffered its first credit downgrade. Markets were rattled. Consumer and business confidence was shaken. Stocks took a hit. And the recovery from the Great Recession was in question. Democrats averted the cliff — by acceding to $2 trillion in spending cuts the GOP had demanded after negotiations on a “grand bargain” broke down — but Obama and Biden agreed that the mere threat of default had taken a serious toll.

“They said: This is the sad lesson we’ve learned,” the Obama official said, describing the mood in the room. “It was an unimaginable self-inflicted wound in 2011.”

One of the bigger problems for the current Republican party, beyond their craziness and nihilism and love of violence and their demographic issues, is we have now reached the stage where their bullshit from 2008 to now is not new anymore. The older Democrats and believers in institutions and days gone by, who thought you could negotiate in good faith with these guys, are aging out and retiring. The Hoyer’s and Bayh’s and other folks are no longer in charge, and they have been replace by a new guard. And one of the things about this new guard is that for many of them, much of their political careers and for some, all of it, has been dealing with Republicans who are just utter pieces of shit. Maxwell Frost, the new House Member from Florida, is 25. He was 12 years old during the tea party uprising. He has never known a reasonable Republican party- it’s been nutters his entire career. All he has EVER witnessed is bullshit and bad faith.

And that’s good.

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Reader Interactions

206Comments

  1. 1.

    Baud

    January 31, 2023 at 11:22 am

    Agree.  And that’s why I’m opposed to Internet talk about platinum coins or other work around whereby Biden saves us from the House GOP.

  2. 2.

    waspuppet

    January 31, 2023 at 11:24 am

    Markets were rattled. Consumer and business confidence was shaken. Stocks took a hit. And the recovery from the Great Recession was in question.

    Which is exactly what the Republicans wanted, or at least were totally OK with.

    1. Make everything you can suck.

    2. Scream all day, every day, that everything sucks. (Make it up if you have to, because you can’t say the n-word out loud just yet.)

    3. Say “If you think everything sucks, vote for us.”

    The GOP is a bunch of 12-year-old goths trying to be a political party.

  3. 3.

    SFAW

    January 31, 2023 at 11:25 am

    @Baud:

    Why do you hate America and free speech?

  4. 4.

    Baud

    January 31, 2023 at 11:26 am

    @SFAW:

    They know what they did.

  5. 5.

    Frankensteinbeck

    January 31, 2023 at 11:30 am

    @waspuppet:

    The GOP is a bunch of 12-year-old goths trying to be a political party.

    Why do you hate 12-year-old goths?

  6. 6.

    Qrop Non Sequitur

    January 31, 2023 at 11:34 am

    @SFAW: Baud’s speech against platinum coins is every bit as good as their speech for. Some might argue it’s better.

  7. 7.

    Qrop Non Sequitur

    January 31, 2023 at 11:36 am

    @Frankensteinbeck: No personal problem with 12 year old goths, but reflexive anti-conformity that turns into a sort of alt-conformity doesn’t make for a good governing philosophy.

  8. 8.

    Chief Oshkosh

    January 31, 2023 at 11:37 am

    Just a brainfart, but…

    I wonder what would happen if Biden made the transcripts of his meetings with House “leadership” available to all. I mean, it’s all The People’s Business, right? Why should there be any presumption of privacy? Why should any of it (other than national security issues) be hidden from the public? Why not provide, in detail, what the Republicans are proposing and presenting, and what the Democrats are saying? Just show all of it, all the time. I know that the downside would be for the Republicans. Would there be a downside for the Democrats or for the country?

  9. 9.

    p.a.

    January 31, 2023 at 11:37 am

    Yes, FINALLY!  I guess living through Gingrich-era Republicanism wasn’t enough to wise up many Dems.

  10. 10.

    JPL

    January 31, 2023 at 11:38 am

    Has McCarthy released a statement declaring that Biden is not serious about negotiating, so he will not go to the White House?

  11. 11.

    JPL

    January 31, 2023 at 11:42 am

    @Chief Oshkosh: I wish it were on live TV

  12. 12.

    West of the Rockies

    January 31, 2023 at 11:43 am

    @waspuppet:

    I think of Repubs  more as very dense junior high bully boys and mean girls.

  13. 13.

    azlib

    January 31, 2023 at 11:44 am

    I think enough Republicans will blink to get us out of this made up crisis. But we still need to get rid of this debt ceiling nonsense.

  14. 14.

    Betty Cracker

    January 31, 2023 at 11:45 am

    So in practical terms, how is it going to be different? The GOP will propose unacceptable budget cuts and threaten default if they don’t get their way. It’s good that most Democrats aren’t operating under the delusion that they’re dealing with reasonable people this time, but that’s the only thing that’s changed. It’s still a game of chicken with psychopaths who are willing to cause a head-on collision.

  15. 15.

    Baud

    January 31, 2023 at 11:47 am

    @Betty Cracker:

    I don’t recall what McConnell’s position was under Obama, but I believe he’s come out against negotiating over the debt ceiling this time.  McCarthy is on the hot seat by himself and the Freedom Caucus.

  16. 16.

    Qrop Non Sequitur

    January 31, 2023 at 11:48 am

    @Betty Cracker: What’s different is that the stakes are clear, the Ds know not to budge, and the R caucus is small and fractious enough that we can likely stave off the worst for now.

  17. 17.

    JPL

    January 31, 2023 at 11:52 am

    @Qrop Non Sequitur: It still needs to come to the floor for  a vote.

  18. 18.

    Qrop Non Sequitur

    January 31, 2023 at 11:54 am

    @JPL: Where did they land on discharge petitions?

    Also, how is McQevin going to weigh the dozen or so members who want to push this to the max vs. the dozen or so who will likely be committed to a semi-sane resolution? He needs them all to keep the big chair.

  19. 19.

    West of the Rockies

    January 31, 2023 at 11:58 am

    @Qrop Non Sequitur:

    Also what’s different is that Biden and Co. will immediately and pointedly  make clear Republican malfeasance.   They will loudly broadcast Republican demands–and their impact on the American people–in real time.  Pete might be especially good at that.

  20. 20.

    Cameron

    January 31, 2023 at 11:58 am

    Just to show they’re the reasonable ones, of course, the Democrats should offer something in return for cooperation.  Only it can only be something symbolic, otherwise it all goes to hell.  I’m thinking the President could present the Speaker with a plastic toy Jewish space laser.

  21. 21.

    Baud

    January 31, 2023 at 11:59 am

    @West of the Rockies:

    I also believe the Dem support network is much stronger now than it has been in the past.  Biden etc. won’t be on an island pissing into the wind.

  22. 22.

    Kent

    January 31, 2023 at 11:59 am

    Personally I think Biden should just challenge the constitutionality of the debt limit.

    Have his OLC issue an opinion that failure to service the debt is unconstitutional under the 14th amendment and that it is impossible to disentangle debt payments from regular authorized spending because they are inextricably linked.  And then just go ahead and continue to pay the debt.  None of the options are worse than doing nothing

    Option 1.  Congress raises the limit to “keep their power dry” and avoid seeing it get challenged, so Biden wins.

    Option 2:  House GOP takes it to the Supreme Court which upholds Biden or refuses to even take it up, so Biden wins.  Or, alternatively orders Congress to raise the debt limit and refuses to block Biden’s actions in the mean time.  He also wins.

    Option 3:  SCOTUS splits the baby and orders that actual debt get serviced under the 14th Amendment but not spending.  So SCOTUS and the Republicans share equal blame for a situation in which Chinese and Saudi bond holders get paid, but not social security recipients, or medicare recipients.  Further destroying their standing with the public. Democrats wins (sort of).

    Option 4: SCOTUS agrees with the House GOP and orders a government shutdown.  Biden is no worse off than he would have been doing nothing but again, the public knows exactly that it is SCOTUS and the House GOP that brought it all on.

    Personally I think there are enough sane members of the House GOP to blink and kick the can on down the road to the 2024 fiscal year budget which comes up in the fall.  And that will be the more normal process where they threaten to shut the government down without tanking the bond market.

  23. 23.

    WaterGirl

    January 31, 2023 at 12:00 pm

    Our Democrats may be learning, but I apparently am not.  Making a Dutch Oven Whole Roast Chicken recipe I have used once before.  So simple!  For a 3-lb chicken, 35 minutes uncovered COVERED at 425 degrees, then uncover for 30 minutes.

    Perfect chicken!

    Me, today:  Prep the chicken, set the oven for 425 degrees, put the chicken in the oven, set the time for 35 minutes,   Timer goes off.  Oh fuck, I DIDN’T COVER THE FUCKING CHICKEN!  Totally backwards,  I don’t have a clue how to fix it.  I just covered it and put it in for 20 minutes, then hopefully the path forward may be more clear.

  24. 24.

    Chief Oshkosh

    January 31, 2023 at 12:00 pm

    @Baud: I recall (could be misremembering) that McTurtle backed the terrorists the first time around. IMO, he saw political advantage and he personally despised Obama, so it was a twofer for him.

  25. 25.

    The Moar You Know

    January 31, 2023 at 12:04 pm

    It’s a gross mistake to let Biden get involved with this, because it will be a total self-aggrandizing shitshow by McCarthy, who has zero intention of negotiating in good faith.  If for some reason he decided to do so, he loses his Speakership.  He certainly remembers the mileage and press Gingrich got out of this with Clinton.

    This should be delegated to Jeffries.  You negotiate with equals.

  26. 26.

    Chief Oshkosh

    January 31, 2023 at 12:04 pm

    @Baud:

    I also believe the Dem support network is much stronger now than it has been in the past. Biden etc. won’t be on an island pissing into the wind.

    That’s a good point, too. There were plenty of Dems during the Obama administration that were content, content enough, anyway, to let Obama take the heat for everything. Not helpful.

  27. 27.

    Kent

    January 31, 2023 at 12:05 pm

    @Betty Cracker:So in practical terms, how is it going to be different? The GOP will propose unacceptable budget cuts and threaten default if they don’t get their way. It’s good that most Democrats aren’t operating under the delusion that they’re dealing with reasonable people this time, but that’s the only thing that’s changed. It’s still a game of chicken with psychopaths who are willing to cause a head-on collision.

    I think the most likely scenario is that the House GOP will kick the can down the road and start the whole process up in the fall with the 2024 fiscal year budget.  They can shut down the government over that without tanking the bond market since it will only be about spending and not debt service.  And still get the same effect.  Unfortunately for them, government shut downs are extremely unpopular.

    I was in the Federal government for the first two.  And what Biden should do is stop declaring so much of government service as “essential”  Actually shut shit down so that it is more than just national parks.  Especially things that hurt GOP constituencies the most.  Like shut down all commercial fishing in the EEZ.  Shut down farm programs, etc.  Make a LOT more GOP constituencies pissed.  That is what Trump would do in that position.

  28. 28.

    Betty Cracker

    January 31, 2023 at 12:07 pm

    @Baud: McConnell has come out against himself using the debt ceiling as a negotiating tool but said it’s appropriate for McCarthy to do so. The impression I got is McConnell is passing the hot potato to McCarthy, not that McConnell publicly acknowledges the illegitimacy of hostage-taking as a negotiating tool.

  29. 29.

    Baud

    January 31, 2023 at 12:08 pm

    @Betty Cracker:

    I think McConnell knows McCarthy is going to look real bad and wants to not be associated with him.

  30. 30.

    Math Guy

    January 31, 2023 at 12:08 pm

    The republican party has become a cancer in our political life and, unfortunately, the cure will be costly to all of us. I believe that the Democrats have to call their bluff and be prepared to accept the reality that they are not bluffing: they really will force us to default. That is going to hurt all of us (the top 1% included, albeit in a different manner), but if there is any sanity left, it will hurt the republicans more when their supporters start feeling the pain. I wish it were otherwise; this is not fair, the most vulnerable will feel the pain first and longest, but what is the alternative? If they get their way on this, there will only be more demands and we risk turning the country into a dystopia.

  31. 31.

    Captain C

    January 31, 2023 at 12:10 pm

    @Baud:

    I don’t recall what McConnell’s position was under Obama, but I believe he’s come out against negotiating over the debt ceiling this time.

    I wonder if his sponsors have informed him in no uncertain terms that fucking around with their livelihoods (again) in this manner will probably push a significant number of them away from the idea that the Republicans are a) responsible, and b) a party of business, with unsurprising results for their future donation patterns.

    Whatever you say about the Moscow Turtle, he does understand that for the money people, profits are more important than sadism, no matter how much he personally likes the latter.

  32. 32.

    schrodingers_cat

    January 31, 2023 at 12:11 pm

    Kevin McCarthy will blink.

  33. 33.

    Math Guy

    January 31, 2023 at 12:12 pm

    @WaterGirl: You meant to say “covered” at 425 for the first 35 minutes, right?

  34. 34.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    January 31, 2023 at 12:18 pm

    @Betty Cracker: I won’t make any predictions about McConnell, but he seems to at least have taken his foot off the gas on the total war strategy under Biden, as @Chief Oshkosh: says, McC seems to have less of an investment in opposing Biden than he did Obama– one does wonder why so ever that could be? On the one hand, I wonder if McC is planning to retire, if his health is fading, if he just doesn’t want to deal with Cotton, Hawley and Blackburn, if just flat out hates them more than he hates Democrats. I think Mitch knows how to hate, if not at a McCain level.

    No doubt in my mind that if he does hang around and hang on to the leadership in ’24 that he’ll return to total obstruction.

  35. 35.

    Cameron

    January 31, 2023 at 12:22 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: You think the turtle may be having a Boehner moment?

  36. 36.

    Qrop Non Sequitur

    January 31, 2023 at 12:22 pm

    @schrodingers_cat: Kevin McCarthy will blink.

    …lest his eyes dry and shrivel from his skull.

  37. 37.

    Burnspbesq

    January 31, 2023 at 12:23 pm

    @Kent:

    Have his OLC issue an opinion

    So Trump was wrong to treat DOJ as his personal law firm, but it’s ok for Biden?

  38. 38.

    Baud

    January 31, 2023 at 12:24 pm

    @Cameron:

    How much has he had to drink?

  39. 39.

    Betty Cracker

    January 31, 2023 at 12:24 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Sort of OT, but I recently saw McConnell’s high school yearbook photo, and he looked like a turtle while young too!

  40. 40.

    Qrop Non Sequitur

    January 31, 2023 at 12:24 pm

    @Burnspbesq: How about he solicits an opinion from the OLC and see how they weigh the matter?

    FWIW I don’t personally see how the debt ceiling can be Constitutional. It creates circumstances where the government is required to spend or make payments and denies the means of doing so.

  41. 41.

    Burnspbesq

    January 31, 2023 at 12:29 pm

    @Qrop Non Sequitur:

    He’d better be very sure he’s going to get the opinion he needs before he plays that card. There’s no FOIA exception that could keep an adverse opinion from becoming public.

    And it’s still not a good idea. The optics suck.

    Treasury has lawyers, too. They can advise the Secretary on the potential ramifications of a proposed course of action.

  42. 42.

    Qrop Non Sequitur

    January 31, 2023 at 12:32 pm

    @Burnspbesq: How do you propose he does that without using them, as you disparagingly put it a moment ago, as his personal law firm?

    Clarity is a good unto itself. I think he should seek an opinion.

  43. 43.

    Kent

    January 31, 2023 at 12:33 pm

    @Burnspbesq:So Trump was wrong to treat DOJ as his personal law firm, but it’s ok for Biden?

    WTF are you talking about?  This isn’t some personal private issue of Biden’s.  This goes to the very heart of governance and has direct constitutional implications.

  44. 44.

    Qrop Non Sequitur

    January 31, 2023 at 12:34 pm

    @Kent: I think what Burns meant is that he shouldn’t ask the OLC to craft an opinion around his own personally preferred outcome.

  45. 45.

    Kent

    January 31, 2023 at 12:35 pm

    @Betty Cracker:@Baud: McConnell has come out against himself using the debt ceiling as a negotiating tool but said it’s appropriate for McCarthy to do so. The impression I got is McConnell is passing the hot potato to McCarthy, not that McConnell publicly acknowledges the illegitimacy of hostage-taking as a negotiating tool.

    Well, McConnell doesn’t really have any leverage in the Senate unless Manchin and Sinema choose to give it to him.  Takes both of them now, not just one of them.

  46. 46.

    Kent

    January 31, 2023 at 12:37 pm

    @Qrop Non Sequitur: @Kent: I think what Burns meant is that he shouldn’t ask the OLC to craft an opinion around his own personally preferred outcome.

    Well, he can ask for an opinion and then not use it if it comes out the other direction.  They should be able to figure out which way it will come out through internal meetings before putting it all on paper.

  47. 47.

    Burnspbesq

    January 31, 2023 at 12:40 pm

    @Kent:

    Well, he can ask for an opinion and then not use it if it comes out the other direction.

    See comment 41, first paragraph, last sentence.

  48. 48.

    Qrop Non Sequitur

    January 31, 2023 at 12:40 pm

    @Kent: All I know is that when I run for the Republican nomination for Congress as a Socialist, institutional reform of Congress is on my agenda and eliminating the debt ceiling is top of that list.

  49. 49.

    Brit in Chicago

    January 31, 2023 at 12:53 pm

    @The Moar You Know:

    “This should be delegated to Jeffries.  You negotiate with equals.”

    Well I know what you mean, one leader of one caucus in the House, the other the leader of the other, so in some technical sense equals. But substantively? No way McC is the equal of Jeffries.

  50. 50.

    Mart

    January 31, 2023 at 12:53 pm

    President wannabe Pompeo negotiated the release of 5,000 Taliban prisoners and the removal of American troops from Afghanistan.  The second part executed by the Biden Admin after negotiating a withdrawal delay.

  51. 51.

    Qrop Non Sequitur

    January 31, 2023 at 12:54 pm

    @Brit in Chicago: Also, too, coequal branches of government.

  52. 52.

    Geminid

    January 31, 2023 at 12:59 pm

    I understand how people are really concerned about a default and want to see President Biden avert one with a tecnique like declaring the debt limit unconstitutional. I would reserve any such innovations as a very last resort though, and in the meantime hold  Republican’s feet to the fire..

    This is a political fight that Democrats can win and should not avoid. There will surely be a lot of drama, but the greater part of the stress will be on the Republicans, and they have a bad case. In the end, I don’t think McCarthy will be able to hold his caucus together, and they’ll end up taking a beating in public opinion for naught.

    Maybe they’ll try to turn their fortunes around with that clever National Sales Tax.

  53. 53.

    The Moar You Know

    January 31, 2023 at 1:03 pm

    Maybe they’ll try to turn their fortunes around with that clever National Sales Tax.

    @Geminid: I pray every day for that.  Any political party who can’t make that a winning issue doesn’t deserve to be in power.

  54. 54.

    Sister Golden Bear

    January 31, 2023 at 1:04 pm

    In today’s edition of ethnic trans cleansing:

    • Utah’s governor signs one of the harshest anti-trans laws in the U.S.
    • Missouri Republicans have been private notifying anti-trans forces of hearings targeting trans kids more than weeks in advance — but only publicly announcing the hearings the day before, in order to hinder opponents from showing up to the hearing.
    • A new bill in Arizona would would criminalize drag in presence of a minor as a felony punishable by up to 15 years in prison and a requirement to register as a sex offender. The bill defines drag as just singing and dancing while wearing make-up. As with other bills it’s intentionally written so loosely that it can — and would — be used to harass and arrest trans people. It lists exposure to drag in the “require to register” as a sex offender section along with acts such as sex trafficking of a minor. This is absolutely insane.
    • We’re likely to see a massive outbreak of HIV in Tennessee, because the Governor hates trans people and stopped federal HIV funding to several organizations because they also work with trans patients.
    • In Florida, a letter supporting a proposed youth gender affirming care ban cited as “alternative treatment” a case where a teen was held in a psych ward for two year before renouncing their trans identity. DeSantis appointed two of the coauthors of the paper about this to the Boards of Medicine.

    Also the NYT gets called out for it’s regular, and deceptively, anti-trans hit pieces:

    Concerns are, indeed, growing. A regular reader of the Times might conclude that the paper itself is cultivating those concerns—even when the “data is sparse.” With the story about social transitioning in schools, in the past eight months the Times has now published more than 15,000 words’ worth of front-page stories asking whether care and support for young trans people might be going too far or too fast.

    That cumulative figure of 15,000 words doesn’t include the 11,000 or so words the New York Times Magazine devoted to a laboriously evenhanded story about disagreements over the standards of care for trans youth; or the 3,000 words of the front-page story from its designated anti-wokeness-beat reporter, Michael Powell, on whether trans women athletes are unfairly ruining the competition for other women; or the 1,200 words of the front-page story by Powell on how trans interests are banning the word “woman” from abortion-rights discourse; or the various expressions of polite skepticism or open hostility toward trans interests from opinion-page columnists like Michelle Goldberg (fretting about “progressive taboos around discussing some of the thornier issues involved in treating young people with gender dysphoria”) or Pamela Paul (citing Powell to argue that trans-rights supporters “deny women their humanity, reducing them to a mix of body parts and gender stereotypes”).

    The count also doesn’t include the 2,000 or so words in the story from the roundup box about intimidation and violence against trans people. The Times published that one on page A25.

    Page A1 is where questions go. Is the number of young trans people suddenly unusually large? Is it good for young trans people to be getting medical treatment as drastic as breast-removal surgery? If they’re deferring more drastic medical treatment by taking puberty blockers, is it harmful for them to take those puberty blockers? If they’re not getting medical treatment at all, are their schools letting them socially transition too easily?

    This is pretty obviously—and yet not obviously enough—a plain old-fashioned newspaper crusade. Month after month, story after story, the Times is pouring its attention and resources into the message that there is something seriously concerning about the way young people who identify as trans are receiving care. Like the premise that the Clintons had to have been guilty of something serious, or that Saddam Hussein must have had a weapons program worth invading Iraq over, the notion that trans youth present a looming problem is demonstrated to the reader by the sheer volume of coverage. If it’s not a problem, why else would it be in the paper?

     

  55. 55.

    Sister Golden Bear

    January 31, 2023 at 1:06 pm

    @Sister Golden Bear: I’ll note the “data is sparse” quote came from a story where the writer didn’t bother to look for it. Can’t let the facts get in the way of good moral panic.

    Also the “put trans people on sex offender lists” strategy is the same on they used during the bathroom moral panic. Not only to pretend trans people are scary sexual predators, but also to scare trans people from using public restrooms (making it harder for us to be in public), and to make life a living hell for those of use who had the temerity to do so.

  56. 56.

    Qrop Non Sequitur

    January 31, 2023 at 1:12 pm

    @Sister Golden Bear: The bill defines drag as just singing and dancing while wearing make-up

    There goes all the high-school theater departments.

  57. 57.

    Hazmat

    January 31, 2023 at 1:12 pm

    @Sister Golden Bear: ​
     

    I’ve noticed this pattern wrt the Times, but this is a great detailed review. Do you have a link to the original article or thread?

  58. 58.

    WaterGirl

    January 31, 2023 at 1:18 pm

    @Math Guy: Yes!  Sorry, fixed.

  59. 59.

    Amir Khalid

    January 31, 2023 at 1:18 pm

    George Santos has declared he won’t be taking up the House committee seats that McCarthy assigned him until his issues are resolved.

  60. 60.

    Hoodie

    January 31, 2023 at 1:18 pm

    @Geminid:  Refusing to negotiate and holding their feet to the fire is the right course, but I imagine Biden will need to signal to the markets what way he will go if they’re stupid enough to pull the trigger.  I think he’ll have no trouble ignoring the debt ceiling law if the GOP lets this happen.   At worst, Biden can say he was confronted with a national emergency and an apparent conflict between the debt ceiling law and the 14th Amendment.  McCarthy’s actions in using it as an extortion tool goes outside of legislative norms and left no way to adjudicate the issue without causing extreme damage to the country’s credit rating and the savings of Americans. Therefore, the president invokes emergency powers to ensure that the 14th Amendment is not violated and that damage is avoided or reduced, because the issuance of a few billion in debt above the limit is pretty de minimus if you look at the total debt.  No court is going to say that debt is invalid and I doubt any bond purchaser is going to shy away because of that, especially if they have some idea that Biden will act in favor of issuing debt if the GOP does the wrong thing.  If the House takes him to Court, what happens?  We get some clarification on the debt ceiling law, hopefully they find it unconstitutional.  If not, well that provides all the more reason to get rid of that stupid law.   If the idiots try to impeach on that, go ahead.  Biden can simply say he was doing his job to protect the American people from a bunch of legislative terrorists.   There was nothing keeping McCarthy from passing a budget that has the cuts he says he wants and passing it on to the Senate.  There eventually will be some sort of negotiation with the Senate and the President, which may be why Biden is asking him for a budget.   He’s calling McCarthy’s stupid bluff. 

  61. 61.

    JPL

    January 31, 2023 at 1:23 pm

    The danger is that there is an orange goon whispering in McCarthy’s ear.

  62. 62.

    Sister Golden Bear

    January 31, 2023 at 1:31 pm

    @Hazmat: Oops. Sorry, I accidentally left of the link: Why Is the New York Times So Obsessed With Trans Kids?

    @Qrop Non Sequitur: The bill does it only applies performers wearing make-up that differs from their biological sex assigned at birth. But yeah, who needs Shakespeare’s plays? Win, win, amirite.

  63. 63.

    Qrop Non Sequitur

    January 31, 2023 at 1:33 pm

    @Sister Golden Bear: Kids are born wearing makeup? We really are sexualizing our kids way too early.

  64. 64.

    Leslie

    January 31, 2023 at 1:33 pm

    @Sister Golden Bear: Thank you for continuing to shine a light on these horrors. I would also appreciate a link to the post calling out the NYT.

  65. 65.

    Anoniminous

    January 31, 2023 at 1:36 pm

    @Sister Golden Bear: ​
     
    FTNYT has gone full Faux News: hate collects eyeballs which sells advertising.

  66. 66.

    Jackie

    January 31, 2023 at 1:36 pm

    @Amir Khalid: I don’t believe him.

  67. 67.

    Matt McIrvin

    January 31, 2023 at 1:36 pm

    @waspuppet: One of the great dangers in any democratic system (especially one with the kind of separation of powers that ours has) is that the people won’t recognize cause and effect, and you’ll be able to win by causing problems and successfully attributing them to your opposition.

    There seemed to be a lot of that going on during the Great Recession. Among other things, there was a popular intuition that government spending makes recessions worse rather than the opposite and that you needed to cut spending to work your way out (the “household budget” fallacy), and Republicans were able to use that cause-and-effect reversal to their advantage.

  68. 68.

    Baud

    January 31, 2023 at 1:39 pm

    @Qrop Non Sequitur:

    And Halloween.

  69. 69.

    Qrop Non Sequitur

    January 31, 2023 at 1:39 pm

    @Matt McIrvin: It has long been clear to me that the solution to all my budget problems is that, when things get tight, I should stop paying my car loan and parking fees.

  70. 70.

    Baud

    January 31, 2023 at 1:39 pm

    @Matt McIrvin:

    This is why we push so hard against the “only Dems have agency” meme.

  71. 71.

    Qrop Non Sequitur

    January 31, 2023 at 1:40 pm

    @Baud: The War on Halloween is real and is being waged by faux-conservative elected officials across the nation.

  72. 72.

    Princess

    January 31, 2023 at 1:44 pm

    I don’t think it’s as much of a given that the “rational” Republicans will join with Dems to fix the debt ceiling. They’re all cowards, we know this. The option is going to be hold the country hostage for spending cuts, or side with the Dems. The latter is a loser for them individually, and these are not people who care about the common good. And while they may not like playing games with the debt ceiling, they’re all fully ob board with spending cuts, and so are the people who elected them. In fact, as I write all this out, I don’t think there is a way in hell that any GOPer who seeks reelection in 2024 will help the Dems.

  73. 73.

    Amir Khalid

    January 31, 2023 at 1:53 pm

    @Jackie:

    Yes, he does have a credibility problem, doesn’t he?

  74. 74.

    Feathers

    January 31, 2023 at 1:56 pm

    @WaterGirl: They’re speedy, but those fancy instant read thermometers are worth the money. No guessing as to whether your meat is done or not. They work for bread as well. Best wishes on your chicken.

  75. 75.

    Suzanne

    January 31, 2023 at 1:58 pm

    The older Democrats and believers in institutions and days gone by, who thought you could negotiate in good faith with these guys, are aging out and retiring. The Hoyer’s and Bayh’s and other folks are no longer in charge, and they have been replace by a new guard. And one of the things about this new guard is that for many of them, much of their political careers and for some, all of it, has been dealing with Republicans who are just utter pieces of shit.

    Yes.
    It is also far more socially acceptable to be a partisan on the liberal side of the aisle than it used to be.

    The challenge is, of course, that the things I like about candidates and also probably the things that other people don’t like about candidates. For example, I love hearing people call the GOP what they are, the more invective, the better. But that’s because I’m me. I have to remember that my tastes are not shared, even by all of those who might share my politics.

  76. 76.

    lowtechcyclist

    January 31, 2023 at 1:59 pm

    @Baud:

    Agree.  And that’s why I’m opposed to Internet talk about platinum coins or other work around whereby Biden saves us from the House GOP.

    That’s bullshit. Much as I’d like to see Biden wipe the floor with Qevin’s sorry face, his first duty is to navigate this ginned-up (but quite real if the GQP sticks to its guns) crisis without any damage to the nation.

    If the platinum coin can do this without giving an inch to the GQP terrorists, then AFAIAC the $1T platinum coin should be minted.

  77. 77.

    Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony

    January 31, 2023 at 2:00 pm

    @Princess: Sure, siding with Dems is a problem electorally. However, most of the GOP reps are older people with investments that will tank and business contacts they don’t want to alienate. No one wants to be unwelcome in their suburban enclave. Plus, Biden has given them the convenient ‘real Republicans vs MAGA crazies’ framing they can deploy.

  78. 78.

    dave319

    January 31, 2023 at 2:02 pm

    @West of the Rockies: Same way Biden and the IC hondled RU in the early weeks of the war–broadcast the enemy’s movements and steal their thunder at every opportunity.

     

    @West of the Rockies:

  79. 79.

    hueyplong

    January 31, 2023 at 2:02 pm

    @Betty Cracker: “Sort of OT, but I recently saw McConnell’s high school yearbook photo, and he looked like a turtle while young too!”

    Young turtles look like turtles.

    As for the substance of this thread, I’m getting a real feel for why it’s possible and likely probable that I’ve known a trans person without knowing the trans person was trans.  It’s currently like putting a bullseye on their backs.

  80. 80.

    CaseyL

    January 31, 2023 at 2:04 pm

    I’m all in favor of attaching the term “terrorist” to the GOP.  Whether it’s domestic terrorism (against LGBTQ, POC, women, etc.) or economic terrorism (debt ceiling): the label is true, it fits, let’s go with it.

    American Hamas = GOP.

    American Hezbollah = GOP.

    American Isis = GOP.

    Etc.

  81. 81.

    Geminid

    January 31, 2023 at 2:04 pm

    @Princess: There are a number of Republicans who do not intend run again. Don Bacon (NE) is a likely example. Two Republicans who probably will run but still might defect on this issue are Fitzpatrick (PA) and Malliotakis (NY).

    And then there are Newhouse (WA) and Valadeo (CA), who won reelection even after voting to impeach the former guy.

    I’m not saying that these Reps will defect, but I am not ruling it out either. It will only take five, possibly just four depending on whether Representative Steube (FL) can recover from his ladder accident in time.

    Democrats are down a Rep also, but in three weeks Jennifer McLellan will win the 4th VA CD seat of the late Don McEachin so she ought to be there in time.

  82. 82.

    RaflW

    January 31, 2023 at 2:10 pm

    @Betty Cracker: Could even be more than just passing the hot potato. One suspects McConnell thinks McCarthy is a horrible tool, and bad for Mitch’s old school (and largely antiquated) view of the GOP brand.

    He’s handing the grenade back to the Squeaker and maybe just kinda hoping it’ll go off.

  83. 83.

    Josie

    January 31, 2023 at 2:11 pm

    @Suzanne: ​
     It’s true that some people don’t like invective, but I believe that most people (who are not insane) like to hear straight talk with provable facts. Sherrod Brown’s success, among others, is a testament to this.

  84. 84.

    ian

    January 31, 2023 at 2:12 pm

    @CaseyL: I think we should use the term terrorist far less often than we do.  It should be applied to people who commit or incite terrorism.  The Proud Boys and Oathkeepers are domestic terrorists.  The debt ceiling fiasco is bad for our country, but I don’t see how it fits into the definition of terrorism.

    Calling our political opponents terrorists in order to score political or rhetorical style points cheapens the value of the word.  It is also Trumpian, in the way Democratic = Antifa = terrorist.  It also furthers a militarized view of politics.  If your perceived enemies are terrorists, there is nothing that cannot be justified when undertaken against them.

    Calling people terrorists might make partisans feel morally superior, but it overall hurts our political discourse.  If we call all Republicans terrorists, it becomes that much harder to separate the political conservatives from those willing to engage in violence (the actual terrorists).

  85. 85.

    rikyrah

    January 31, 2023 at 2:14 pm

    @Sister Golden Bear:

     

    The pure hatred is obvious. It is just enraging.

  86. 86.

    lowtechcyclist

    January 31, 2023 at 2:15 pm

    @Geminid: Currently there are 222 GQPers in the House, and 212 Dems.  Our upcoming win in VA-4 will close the gap to 222-213.  If Steube is out, that’s 221-213.

    Remember, the debt limit stays where it is if the House fails to pass anything.  So a tie is a loss for us, and even with Steube out and McLellan in, we need to win 5 GQP votes.

  87. 87.

    rikyrah

    January 31, 2023 at 2:16 pm

    @Sister Golden Bear:

     

    The bill defines drag as just singing and dancing while wearing make-up.

     

    What about beauty pageants?

  88. 88.

    rikyrah

    January 31, 2023 at 2:18 pm

    @lowtechcyclist:

     

    Remember, the debt limit stays where it is if the House fails to pass anything.  So a tie is a loss for us, and even with Steube out and McLellan in, we need to win 5 GQP votes.

     

    There are 18 GOPers in districts Biden won. The pressure needs to be put on them.

  89. 89.

    Baud

    January 31, 2023 at 2:18 pm

    @lowtechcyclist:

    Platinum coin = GOP win.

  90. 90.

    NotMax

    January 31, 2023 at 2:23 pm

    @rikyrah

    Not to mention (ostensibly) presidenting while wearing make-up.
    //

  91. 91.

    Suzanne

    January 31, 2023 at 2:23 pm

    @Josie:

    but I believe that most people (who are not insane) like to hear straight talk with provable facts 

    Yeah, I don’t think so. I think “straight talk”, or a somewhat plain-spoken style, is fairly popular. But I have no reason to think that most people want to hear evidence and make decisions based on it.

    I think most people want to hear fact-esque, truthy “confirmation” of what they think already.

  92. 92.

    Geminid

    January 31, 2023 at 2:23 pm

     

     

    @lowtechcyclist: It would need to be a $2 trillion coin, or better yet $5 trillion, the “Platinum Nickle.” But I know what you meant.

    President Biden has dismissed the idea though, and I think you had best prepare yourself for a game of chicken that may even start to stress financial markets. It could take people hollering about their car loans and such to budge a few Republicans. Or more likely, auto dealers screaming into the telephone at their Congressman.

    So my sincere advice is, buckle up.

  93. 93.

    Ruckus

    January 31, 2023 at 2:25 pm

    @waspuppet:

    The GOP is a bunch of 12-year-old goths trying to be a political party.

    I think that you over estimate their ages and what they are trying to do. They are a bunch of 3 yr olds who just threw their pacifiers across the room and are crying and whining because they know that if they do this, mom will come running and bring them their pacifier back so they can go through this all over again. 12 yr olds know they have to retrieve their pacifiers themselves, because if mom picks it up she’s throwing it out. Stupid 12 yr olds haven’t figured out they don’t actually need a pacifier any longer.

  94. 94.

    Geminid

    January 31, 2023 at 2:26 pm

    @ian: It’s also not necessary to call Republicans “terrorists.” There are plenty of other good labels, and we’ll probably hear them all in the next few weeks.

  95. 95.

    frosty

    January 31, 2023 at 2:27 pm

    To quote a famous movie Biden’s approach should be:

    “My offer is this: nothing.”

  96. 96.

    Manyakitty

    January 31, 2023 at 2:29 pm

    @Josie: and may Sherrod Brown continue this through his next election.

  97. 97.

    C Stars

    January 31, 2023 at 2:34 pm

    @Suzanne: But a budget default threat that weakens the market is where truthiness hits the pavement, right? The American public has seen this song and dance enough times to know it’s the GOP’s doing, and losing ones’ personal savings is not popular even with the die-hard MAGAs. I agree with you that there will be wackadoodles out there cheering on total collapse, but the middle of the road folks (the folks the GOP most needs to vote for them) will not be.

  98. 98.

    C Stars

    January 31, 2023 at 2:38 pm

    @Sister Golden Bear: Thanks for that link. The NYT is so infuriating. Some of its reporting is good enough that you’re tempted to forgive, but when it comes to being objective and ethical on issues with political implications it just always fails. And fails in such a mealy-mouthed, spectacularly morally defective way.

  99. 99.

    RaflW

    January 31, 2023 at 2:38 pm

    @Geminid: I posted the below in the wrong thread earlier. Maybe in-district car dealers calling their Reps may sway a couple of the GOP/Biden district 18, but outside of that, the growing consensus is that most of the House GOP don’t give a rip about their past business ties.

    —  —

    NBC also had a piece up a week ago staking out the US Chamber of Concrete’s position that their investments in GOP politicians had soured. So sad!

    “For decades, Wall Street and CEOs viewed Republicans as reliable allies. That sentiment has waned in recent years, with the debt limit standoff shining a spotlight on the tensions.” So, maybe the donor class has begun, slowly, to learn a lesson? The plain fact is, the 2/3rds of the GOP House that are radicals do not care about corporate donations any more, even as big biz has re-opened the taps after a brief post-insurrection pause.

    The time for the Chamber morons to have figured out their purchases were bad money after good (was it ever good?) was really in 2016.

  100. 100.

    Ruckus

    January 31, 2023 at 2:40 pm

    @Kent:

    The only problem with that is Kwiven, the spineless, worse than useless, sfb non-leader of the house of cards doesn’t seem to have as much common sense as a cockroach and might not see (or understand) any of your options.

  101. 101.

    patrick II

    January 31, 2023 at 2:41 pm

    @Kent: . A fifth option is that there would  never be  a better time  to  question  the Supreme Court’s self-appointed  final say  in everything . The constitution  is  clear and the consequences too severe — so  keep  paying – regardless  of the  SC .

  102. 102.

    FastEdD

    January 31, 2023 at 2:41 pm

    It is interesting to see the GOP bankers push back against the GOP crazies. If they blow up the economy on purpose the big money boys behind the R’s will not take it lightly. This is the first time I agree with the bankers. We have too much to lose, both as a society and in our own pocketbooks.

  103. 103.

    Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony

    January 31, 2023 at 2:43 pm

    The administration needs to provide a list in order of what shuts down well in advance. Rural America benefits the most from Federal programs. They need to be very loud about which services they can expect to have cut off. It would probably be smart not to do it abruptly, but with tiered reductions. For instance, the programs which support rural hospitals could start with pay cuts. Same with small business administrations and farm programs. The closer they get to the deadline, the more severe the pain. Government impacts everyone. No one should be spared the discomfort. I think they didn’t spread the pain widely enough early enough last time.

  104. 104.

    C Stars

    January 31, 2023 at 2:44 pm

    I like this somewhat related Jennifer Rubin piece in the WaPo

    (that link should be a gift share, I don’t know, check it out…)

     

    When they are in the majority, however, they must show their cards about supposed Democratic scandals. And that is already proving to be a problem for right-wing performance politicians for four reasons.

    First, most voters don’t want lawmakers to spend time spinning scandals. A recent CNN poll found that 67 percent of voters (including 74 percent of independents) don’t like the way Republicans are handling their job. Seventy-three percent (including 48 percent of Republicans and 76 percent of independents) say Republicans aren’t paying enough attention to the country’s real issues. Likewise, a CBS poll earlier this month found that less than one-third of Americans want Republicans to spend time investigating President Biden. Every hearing that Republicans devote to distractions highlights their failure to tackle real issues.

    Second, it is hard for Republicans to explain to an audience not already seeped in right-wing conspiracy theories what they heck they are talking about.

  105. 105.

    lowtechcyclist

    January 31, 2023 at 2:45 pm

    @Baud:

    Platinum coin = GOP win.

    That’s just a meaningless assertion, backed by nothing more than Baud!2024.

    Explain this to me. What do they win?

    ISTM quite the opposite. They’d be gearing up for this massive confrontation where they’re in the fortunate position of being able to force Biden’s hand by doing literally nothing.

    And poof! the wind is out of their sails.  Game called due to platinum.  Back to the drawing board.

  106. 106.

    Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony

    January 31, 2023 at 2:45 pm

    @RaflW:

    The time for the Chamber morons to have figured out their purchases were bad money after good (was it ever good?) was really in 2016.

    Not really. Their investment in 2016 got them a HUGE tax cut.

  107. 107.

    Ruckus

    January 31, 2023 at 2:46 pm

    @Kent:

    The rethugs aren’t nearly mature enough to accept the premise that they even might have any negative consequences from their actions. Immature 3 yr olds are like that, they want what they want and the rest of the world be damned.

  108. 108.

    C Stars

    January 31, 2023 at 2:46 pm

    @rikyrah:There are 18 GOPers in districts Biden won. The pressure needs to be put on them.

    Amen!!

  109. 109.

    Mimi haha

    January 31, 2023 at 2:48 pm

    @ian: Fuck discourse. There people want to overthrow the government.  You don’t want to call them terrorists? How about traitors?

  110. 110.

    lowtechcyclist

    January 31, 2023 at 2:51 pm

    @patrick II:

    A fifth option is that there would  never be  a better time  to  question  the Supreme Court’s self-appointed  final say  in everything . The constitution  is  clear and the consequences too severe — so  keep  paying – regardless  of the  SC .

    I’d rather avoid that earthquake.  The current SC may be a farce, but if a President can disregard it, then others can too. What does the rule of law stand on then?

    This is another reason I’d just like to see Biden go with the platinum coin.  The more possible cost-free solutions before we get to a showdown over the Constitutionality of the debt limit, the better.

  111. 111.

    WaterGirl

    January 31, 2023 at 2:53 pm

    @Mimi haha: Traitors, in my opinion, is much better.

  112. 112.

    ian

    January 31, 2023 at 2:53 pm

    @Mimi haha: treason has its own problems as a word.

    https://constitutioncenter.org/the-constitution/articles/article-iii/clauses/39

    While the Constitution’s Framers shared the centuries-old view that all citizens owed a duty of loyalty to their home nation, they included the Treason Clause not so much to underscore the seriousness of such a betrayal, but to guard against the historic use of treason prosecutions by repressive governments to silence otherwise legitimate political opposition. Debate surrounding the Clause at the Constitutional Convention thus focused on ways to narrowly define the offense, and to protect against false or flimsy prosecutions.

    The Constitution specifically identifies what constitutes treason against the United States and, importantly, limits the offense of treason to only two types of conduct: (1) “levying war” against the United States; or (2) “adhering to [the] enemies [of the United States], giving them aid and comfort.” Although there have not been many treason prosecutions in American history—indeed, only one person has been indicted for treason since 1954—the Supreme Court has had occasion to further define what each type of treason entails.

    If you wish to call Republicans traitors and terrorists, you can do so.  I won’t stop you.  I refrain from using either as a catch all word for people I disagree with politically because it has destructive tendencies in how we think and conceptualize political opponents in a democratic system.

  113. 113.

    lowtechcyclist

    January 31, 2023 at 2:54 pm

    @C Stars:

    Jennifer Rubin: “Second, it is hard for Republicans to explain to an audience not already seeped in right-wing conspiracy theories what they heck they are talking about.”

    Truth.  For years, they’ve been talking to each other in their own private code, and they’re increasingly incapable of rephrasing it in a way that’s understandable to anyone else.

  114. 114.

    Suzanne

    January 31, 2023 at 2:54 pm

    @C Stars: Let’s hope so.

    I just think it is very dangerous to assume that most people carefully weigh evidence and then make decisions. There is a substantial body of evidence (LMAO) in many different disciplines of research indicating that that is not so.

    Emotional appeal is strong. Imagecraft is powerful.

  115. 115.

    Geminid

    January 31, 2023 at 2:56 pm

    @RaflW: If just one third of Republicans care about donations from the Chamber, that is still enough to provide a half dozen or a dozen defectors.

    And this is not just a matter of donations anyway. It’s votes at election time. The local chambers are the nexus of a whole network of business owners and professionals who punch above their numerical weight in red and purple districts.  They have been a mainstay of local Republican parties for generations, and a fat check from the Club for Growth won’t save a Republican Representative if these people desert him.

  116. 116.

    Jay C

    January 31, 2023 at 2:59 pm

    Maxwell Frost, the new House Member from Florida, is 25. He was 12 years old during the tea party uprising. He has never known a reasonable Republican party- it’s been nutters his entire career. All he has EVER witnessed is bullshit and bad faith.

    And that’s good.

     

    Is it really?

    Maybe a contrarian opinion, but I just can’t see that the general state of Congress (or the country) is going to benefit by having more than a fringe caucus of the sort of MAGA/Trump-head/wingnut GOPers – extremist ideologues with a built-in contempt for democratic practices, and whose political priorities consist mainly of ginning up hate-sodden resentments to get social-media likes and Internet clicks. And votes – since these creatures DO manage to get elected time and time again: and the “sane” alternatives never seem to get much electoral traction in the reddest districts.

  117. 117.

    C Stars

    January 31, 2023 at 3:00 pm

    @Suzanne: Yeah. I think it kind of depends on how the GOP spins this, and whether the media buys in. I expect incompetence in all matters GOP, but the media is pretty effective at bothsidesing whatever stupid bullshit the GOP is doing, so I don’t know…

  118. 118.

    stacib

    January 31, 2023 at 3:02 pm

    @JPL: Agree.  Watching Obama kick their entire ass all while wearing a smirk and being broadcast live on C-Span to the entire country is one of the highlights of all political theatre.

  119. 119.

    Matt McIrvin

    January 31, 2023 at 3:03 pm

    @lowtechcyclist: As I understand it, minting the platinum coin turns it into a fight between Biden and the Federal Reserve over whether it is legal tender, in which Biden is in the position of defending a Weird Trick the Fed won’t accept. That doesn’t look good.

  120. 120.

    C Stars

    January 31, 2023 at 3:04 pm

    @stacib: Yeah, I generally don’t like cringe theater but OMG watching the body language of Trump interacting with Pelosi on the few occasions when we got to see them meet was so satisfying.

  121. 121.

    jonas

    January 31, 2023 at 3:06 pm

    @Cameron: They have paraphernalia.

  122. 122.

    Chief Oshkosh

    January 31, 2023 at 3:09 pm

    @C Stars:

    …Likewise, a CBS poll earlier this month found that less than one-third of Americans want Republicans to spend time investigating President Biden…

    Less than one-third? Might that be exactly 27%?

  123. 123.

    RaflW

    January 31, 2023 at 3:09 pm

    @Geminid: Oh, I agree. But the 2/3rds+ of the GOP caucus that is high on their own supply will just take their chances that no Republican will challenge them from the left in primaries.

    The question is wether 5 or more moderate (cough) Republicans will buck the caucus, and how the Squeaker decides to handle getting a bill to the floor that probably violates the Hastert Convicted Sex Felon “Rule”.

  124. 124.

    C Stars

    January 31, 2023 at 3:14 pm

    @Chief Oshkosh: 28%😬

  125. 125.

    CliosFanBoy

    January 31, 2023 at 3:14 pm

    @Chief Oshkosh: Less than one-third? Might that be exactly 27%?

     

    Why, that’s CRAZY TALK!!!

     

    Literally, you’re talking about crazy people.

  126. 126.

    lowtechcyclist

    January 31, 2023 at 3:20 pm

    @Matt McIrvin:

    As I understand it, minting the platinum coin turns it into a fight between Biden and the Federal Reserve over whether it is legal tender, in which Biden is in the position of defending a Weird Trick the Fed won’t accept. That doesn’t look good.

    I recall from 2011 when the idea first came up that minting of platinum coins without respect to denomination was authorized by specific statute.  So unless the law has been changed in the interim, it’s hard for me to see how the Fed says it’s not legal tender.

    But be that as it may, I’d think that that ‘fight’ would take the form of confidential communications between Treasury and Federal Reserve lawyers, and would take place and be resolved out of sight, unless the Administration chose to make a public fight of it after the Fed said No.

  127. 127.

    Math Guy

    January 31, 2023 at 3:21 pm

    @WaterGirl: So, how did it turn out?

  128. 128.

    WaterGirl

    January 31, 2023 at 3:23 pm

    @Math Guy: Much to my surprise, the chicken actually turned out really well!

  129. 129.

    gvg

    January 31, 2023 at 3:24 pm

    @Qrop Non Sequitur: How is it Biden’s personal law firm? I look at it as OUR law firm, the peoples and mucking around with my country defaulting is not in OUR best interests nor that entity that is sort of all of us known as the United States. It really does seem clear to me that we CANNOT default as a government and that is what the constitution says. I think it also means we could declare that we did, but unless we got an amendment to the constitution passed with 2/3’s of the states and all the rest of it, the debtors could still keep claiming until we paid. Now if he ordered them to say something that wasn’t correct, that would be different. This is just getting out of the way.

  130. 130.

    dmsilev

    January 31, 2023 at 3:28 pm

    I was idly reading an article in the Food section of the local paper, and it started thusly:

    The $1.50 hot dog and soda combo at the Costco food court, which somehow hasn’t changed its price since the 1980s, is something of a legend, like Prometheus stealing fire, or George Santos’ resume.

    This is what happens when you become a national punchline.

    (In case anyone is wondering who won the head-to-head comparison, “But ultimately, the toppings, essential in any emulsified meats game, were superior at Sam’s Club. Slightly dry bun notwithstanding, that and the much better drinks selection helps put Sam’s Club on top.”)

  131. 131.

    lowtechcyclist

    January 31, 2023 at 3:32 pm

    @Mimi haha:

    You don’t want to call them terrorists? How about traitors?

    @ian:

    @Mimi haha: treason has its own problems as a word.

    Mimi haha didn’t use that word.  A traitor is one who betrays. It is not a legal term, AFAIK.  Treason is, being very narrowly defined in the Constitution. They are not synonymous.

  132. 132.

    A woman from anywhere (formerly Mohagan)

    January 31, 2023 at 3:40 pm

    @Suzanne: I share your tastes; come over here and sit by me! :-)

  133. 133.

    NotMax

    January 31, 2023 at 3:41 pm

    @WaterGirl

    Cover the chicken.

    Is that what the kewl kids are calling it nowadays?
    :)

  134. 134.

    Baud

    January 31, 2023 at 3:42 pm

    @lowtechcyclist:

    They win by never having to take responsibility ever again, and that assumes the coin will work perfectly and both the financial markets and the courts will accept it, because if they don’t, all the blame will fall on Biden.

  135. 135.

    A woman from anywhere (formerly Mohagan)

    January 31, 2023 at 3:43 pm

    @frosty: Amen!

  136. 136.

    sdhays

    January 31, 2023 at 3:44 pm

    @Betty Cracker: If the Republican Party was united behind the cuts they wanted to deliver, it might not be that different. But they’re not united. Everything they want to do is unpopular, which is why they didn’t do it when they had majorities in both Houses and controlled the White House.

    In 2011, the Obama White House worked hard to find a shitty solution. This time, the Democrats are going to let Qevin present his solution and watch his members run away from it, and then ultimately give up and increase the debt limit, even if “give up” means let a bill go through that he doesn’t personally support.

  137. 137.

    ...now I try to be amused

    January 31, 2023 at 3:44 pm

    Currently, running up to the debt limit requires the Treasury to take “extraordinary measures”. What is to stop the President ordering the Treasury to continue cutting checks, implicitly redefining Congress’s refusal to raise the debt limit as the real extraordinary measures? That would put the onus on McCarthy to take his position to court, if he dares. It would be in the spirit of Andrew Jackson’s “John Marshall has made his decision, now let him enforce it.”

    What am I missing here?

  138. 138.

    Baud

    January 31, 2023 at 3:46 pm

    @…now I try to be amused:

    Checks have to be cashed.  You need to raise that money by selling debt.  The whole platinum coin concept is designed to replace debt money with coin money.

  139. 139.

    Manyakitty

    January 31, 2023 at 3:46 pm

    @WaterGirl: how did the chicken come out?

  140. 140.

    Bill Arnold

    January 31, 2023 at 3:50 pm

    @lowtechcyclist:
    Sadly, the face value would need to be rather larger (like 20000 times or more) than the precious metal value for a Trillion Dollar Coin, but the Big Coin has been done:
    World’s largest gold coin – The one tonne gold coin at The Perth Mint is a major drawcard

    Measuring about 80 centimetres wide and 12 centimetres deep it is the biggest, heaviest and most valuable gold bullion coin in the world.

  141. 141.

    Martin

    January 31, 2023 at 3:51 pm

    So, my experience with preventing a possible school shooting early in my career put me on a number of policy/implementation groups on how to do these things. Not that I have any expertise on what the best way to confront a gunman is, but I do have expertise on how to roll such a program out, get students/staff invested in it, design classrooms around the policies which we’ve been doing for some time, etc. In a particularly cynical move even for me, when the run/hide/fight guidance was rolled out, I channeled my disgust contemplating how this was going to work in a lecture hall/interior hallway situation and wondered aloud how long it would be before the guidance eventually got reduced to ‘fight’. Just attack anyone with a gun.

    Looks like we’re getting there. Guidance is shifting now to ‘run/fight’. Don’t try to hide. Won’t help because the cops are going to camp outside your building for an hour waiting for the gunman to run out of ammo.

    I said Uvalde would change things. No impact on the public view of things, but institutionally it threw everything out the window. The old guidance was designed around buying time for the police to show up. I always doubted how realistic that was. An armed police officer engaged with the two kids at Columbine. Didn’t matter. Margery Stoneman Douglas had an armed officer on campus. Didn’t matter.

    This is a MAD cycle. The gunmen escalate to the guidance – the Monterey Park gunman had a suppressor on his gun. Bump stocks, full auto kits, etc. The police, not wanting to suicide themselves against this escalated violence defer to the next layer of law enforcement – the campus resource officer waits for the PD to roll up. The PD waits for SWAT. SWAT waits for the state troopers. The state troopers will wait for the national guard as this cycle grows.

    I’ve argued a lot of the growing police violence is a response to this situation, with police escalating rapidly any time they think a gun might be nearby – which is now always. Of course that is implemented in a deeply racist way. More guns will make the problem worse faster than we can implement changes to culture and incentives. Kudos to Memphis for their response here. Won’t matter. Tennessee gun laws will render these efforts moot in the long run.

    That change leaves the rest of us with the job of suiciding ourselves against the gunman. The issue will become ‘when’. Do we wait for them to start shooting – making it even harder, or do you jump and incapacitate *anyone* with a gun not showing a badge the moment you see it? Give it another decade of mass killings and we’ll tighten the guidance to just ‘fight’. See a gun? Take the guy out. Ask questions later.

  142. 142.

    Jeffro

    January 31, 2023 at 3:53 pm

    @lowtechcyclist:For years, they’ve been talking to each other in their own private code, and they’re increasingly incapable of rephrasing it in a way that’s understandable to anyone else.

    truth.

    The DNC should mock them into oblivion with “GQP: Decoded!” ads.

    After that round, they could put up a series of this/that ads.  “The GQP could be talking about this (real problem)…but they’re choosing to spend their time and your taxpayer dollars on (not-real problem.)“

  143. 143.

    Martin

    January 31, 2023 at 3:57 pm

    @lowtechcyclist: I agree with Baud. Without accountability they’ll just hold something else hostage. They want to burn down the economy? Ok. Lets do this.

  144. 144.

    Ruckus

    January 31, 2023 at 3:58 pm

    @lowtechcyclist:

    Yes that may solve one problem but the concept of the platinum coin is so unrealistic that it actually creates a far worse problem in the long run. It’s a government. It should work reasonably. Yes the rethuglican party is trying to make it not work at all. But giving in to their childish pouting by buying them an ice cream cone is not the realistic, proper way to make it work. They aren’t trying to break it, because it’s already broken. They are trying to break it worse because they don’t want it to work at all, and we’ve been going on and on about patching up and over the bullshit instead of calling out the bullshit and fixing it. The US needs to own up to it’s downsides as a government model that works only by playing asinine games with the lives of millions. Now I’m sure that doing that will make things a lot worse because we are dealing with spoiled brats, and acting like they aren’t.

    I don’t have any real answers but damn if I haven’t seen this bullshit get worse and worse while the jackoffs get richer and richer over the last 50 yrs. As a country we go through this type of crap on a regular cycle, the riche rich get richer and the country gets worse. We end up in recessions or even depressions because the riche rich mostly do not get that way in a reasonable manor. They get that way by screwing every one else. And that means you and me. And I think that we are approaching a point that the riche rich are going to destroy the country for their own gain. Add in vlad’s concept that he should be ruler of the planet, while he can’t even reasonably run a country less than half the size of ours and it looks to me like we all are at a crossroads. And I see floods in every direction. It’s sink or swim time.

  145. 145.

    patrick II

    January 31, 2023 at 4:00 pm

    @lowtechcyclist:

    Don’t you think it might be a good idea to draw a line somewhere? Isn’t

    The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned.

    clear enough that this Supreme Court should be called on it? Should we let the world have financial catastrophe and have the U.S. its lose faith and credibility in the dollar while the SC is quoting sixteenth-century witch hunters to justify decisions?

  146. 146.

    NotMax

    January 31, 2023 at 4:01 pm

    @Ruckus

    the concept of the platinum coin is so unrealistic that it actually creates a far worse problem in the long run

    “That trick never works.”
    – Rocket J. Squirrel
    ;)

  147. 147.

    Baud

    January 31, 2023 at 4:01 pm

    @patrick II:

    No one is questioning whether the debt is valid.  The GOP isn’t saying the debt is invalid. They are saying they won’t pay the valid debt.

  148. 148.

    AlaskaReader

    January 31, 2023 at 4:04 pm

    @ian: These people aren’t ‘political opponents’ operating within a democratic system.

    These people are terrorists who wish to destroy democracy.

  149. 149.

    Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony

    January 31, 2023 at 4:10 pm

    @Martin:

    Give it another decade of mass killings and we’ll tighten the guidance to just ‘fight’. See a gun? Take the guy out. Ask questions later.

    Then maybe these clowns who think they are going to be a hero by carrying a gun everywhere will finally get a clue. All it takes is a few ‘good guys’ with guns getting taken down or killed in the chaos before that starts to sink in.

  150. 150.

    Qrop Non Sequitur

    January 31, 2023 at 4:17 pm

    @gvg: I’ll again point out the distinction between soliciting an opinion and dictating what that opinion ought to find. And those were Burns’s words.

  151. 151.

    Qrop Non Sequitur

    January 31, 2023 at 4:21 pm

    Last week I told myself I wouldn’t spend above 600 dollars on a computer. I put a 1000 dollar computer on my credit card and will pay the 600 and not a penny more.

    According to House Republicans, this is OK.

  152. 152.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    January 31, 2023 at 4:21 pm

    OT: watching Nicolle Wallace and trump’s deposition from (as far I can tell) the Weisselberg case has been released. Guess who takes the fifth, a lot

    ETA:

    Manu Raju @mkraju
    Former President Donald Trump takes Fifth more than 400 times in deposition, per video obtained by @KaraScannell, saying he will decline “to answer the questions under the rights and privileges afforded to every citizen under the United States Constitution.” (video)

  153. 153.

    jonas

    January 31, 2023 at 4:22 pm

    @Sister Golden Bear:The bill defines drag as just singing and dancing while wearing make-up

    Gene Simmons would like a word…

  154. 154.

    patrick II

    January 31, 2023 at 4:27 pm

    @Baud:

    O.K.  I thought not paying it would be an implicit assertion it is not valid.  I guess I jumped one too far.

  155. 155.

    Jeffro

    January 31, 2023 at 4:27 pm

    @Qrop Non Sequitur: LOL I had to read that three times, as I just bought a new computer two weeks ago and was like, “WHAT?  How’d QNS get a computer for $600???!?”

  156. 156.

    catclub

    January 31, 2023 at 4:43 pm

    @Ruckus: They are trying to break it worse because they don’t want it to work at all, and we’ve been going on and on about patching up and over the bullshit instead of calling out the bullshit and fixing it.

     

    Unless I am mistaken, during the previous term when there was Democratic control of both houses. No law dissolving the debt ceiling was brought to the floor. presumably that means there were not 10 GOP senators to support such a bill.  It sure would be nice now to refer to  the GOP opposing such a bill and voting against it. Like wise in 2010 before the election. This means to me that the Democrats are not willing to go out on a limb and dissolve the limit without GOP ‘bipartisan’ support. They see it as a vote loser.  This is not good.

  157. 157.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    January 31, 2023 at 4:47 pm

    @catclub:

    No law dissolving the debt ceiling was brought to the floor. presumably that means there were not 10 GOP senators to support such a bill.

    Not only was there no bill dissolving it, Joe Manchin announced early on that he wouldn’t support any deal to increase the ceiling unless it was “bipartisan”. I’m sure he firmly believes the debt ceiling is a good and necessary tool to enforce some virtuous fiscal discipline.

  158. 158.

    vbreakwater

    January 31, 2023 at 4:54 pm

    @Jay C: I think what’s trying to be said that it’s good that Frost hasn’t known anything other than GOP mendacity because he has no illusions about who he is dealing with and therefore more capable of cutting through their disingenuous posturing.

  159. 159.

    brantl

    January 31, 2023 at 4:57 pm

    @WaterGirl: Perhaps your original instructions need to be red-lined.

  160. 160.

    Betsy

    January 31, 2023 at 5:00 pm

    @Kent: I love you.

  161. 161.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    January 31, 2023 at 5:01 pm

    @patrick II: IANAL but it seems pretty clear to me that the debt ceiling is unconstitutional, but I doubt nobody in the Biden White House (or the Obama WH before it) never thought about it

    Either a fourteenth amendment challenge or a platinum coin would go to court, and I don’t think we have time for a court challenge. I could be wrong

  162. 162.

    UncleEbeneezer

    January 31, 2023 at 5:01 pm

    In short, McGonigal’s connection to Deripaska — whom the indictment indicates had been investigated by the New York Office under McGonigal’s watch prior to the imposition of sanctions against him — may appear at first glance to implicate the investigation into Manafort’s connection to the Trump campaign and, by extension, the FBI’s investigation into Russian election interference more generally. This is Professor Snyder’s hypothesis, which he also suggests may explain the narrowness of the scope of the investigation into the Trump campaign and lack of attention paid by the FBI to Russia’s social media influence campaign leading up to the election, as well as the pressure faced by then-Director Comey from the “Trumplandia” agents in New York to announce the reopening of the Hillary Clinton email investigation on the eve of the 2016 election.

    However, this hypothesis is not supported by either the facts of the case, investigative protocols, or first-hand accounts by various members of the FBI, Obama administration, and intelligence community as these events were unfolding.

    …To that end, I’ll answer the main questions raised by Snyder’s observations:
    Was McGonigal involved in the investigation into the Trump campaign’s contacts with Russia?

    No. As detailed by former FBI agent Peter Strzok in his book, Compromised: Counterintelligence and the Threat of Donald J. Trump (and also explained in footnote 465 of the Mueller Report), the counterintelligence case that became “Crossfire Hurricane” was opened on July 29, 2016 in Washington, D.C. under the authority of Bill Priestap, then Assistant Director of the FBI’s Counterintelligence Division at FBI headquarters (with approval from his then boss, Andrew McCabe). The case was opened based on information provided to the bureau by Alexander Downer, Australia’s ambassador to the U.K., who had overheard the Trump campaign’s foreign policy advisor, George Papadapolous, brag that Russia had obtained dirt on Hillary Clinton. The case was opened because in the wake of the hacking and intrusion against the Democratic National Committee, which had been attributed to Russia, the information suggested that Russia not only intended to weaponize information against a presidential candidate, but potentially enlist the cooperation of members of the Trump campaign. That provided enough information of a potential national security threat to serve as an adequate predicate for the investigation under the Attorney General Guidelines. (That last line is for the benefit of an MAGAs reading this.)

    Crossfire Hurricane was therefore outside of McGonigal’s purview.

  163. 163.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    January 31, 2023 at 5:02 pm

    Breaking news from Politico (via MSNBC) An appeals court has put a “secret hold” on the DoJ’s access to insurrectionist Congressman Scott Perry’s phone

    it would almost seem as if a criminal prosecution has more complications than any part of Merrick Garland’s anatomy

  164. 164.

    Paul in KY

    January 31, 2023 at 5:04 pm

    @The Moar You Know: Well, he can’t negotiate with Jefferies either. Whose the lamest Dem house member?

  165. 165.

    UncleEbeneezer

    January 31, 2023 at 5:06 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: I was just listening to The Daily Beans podcast and Allison Gill claims this is pretty common procedure.  She argues that unless SCOTUS does an expansive, Separation of Powers ruling, making new precedent, that DOJ will win this fight.

  166. 166.

    Betsy

    January 31, 2023 at 5:07 pm

    @Kent: Even more now.

  167. 167.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    January 31, 2023 at 5:08 pm

    @UncleEbeneezer: Well, he can’t negotiate with Jefferies either. Whose the lamest Dem house member?

    Dood! Are you trying to trick me into starting a flame-war!

    @UncleEbeneezer: that’s good news at least

    and how many podcasts does Allison Gill have?

  168. 168.

    Paul in KY

    January 31, 2023 at 5:14 pm

    @Matt McIrvin: How about a trillion dollar bill? Coins are usually supposed to have some amount of metal that gives them some worth, even if we return to a new Bronze Age. Bills have no intrinsic worth, except as fire kindling and ass wipers. He could do a bill.

    I do not like the trillion dollar bill/coin gambit, myself.

  169. 169.

    Betsy

    January 31, 2023 at 5:16 pm

    @Qrop Non Sequitur: And Shakespeare, and opera.

    A huge number of roles in Shakespeare ‘s plays feature  one gender masquerading as another.  It’s central to the plot of many plays of his — and of course many other classic theatrical works up to the current day!

    Same for opera.

  170. 170.

    brantl

    January 31, 2023 at 5:18 pm

    @catclub: Are you missing that you can’t get a vote for cloture to pass?

  171. 171.

    Paul in KY

    January 31, 2023 at 5:18 pm

    @jonas: Gene’s more a stomper than a dancer…

  172. 172.

    Paul in KY

    January 31, 2023 at 5:23 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: About the same as the pope?

  173. 173.

    Old School

    January 31, 2023 at 5:33 pm

    @Paul in KY:

    How about a trillion dollar bill?

    No, the debated loophole is that there’s a law specifically allowing the creation of platinum coins.

  174. 174.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    January 31, 2023 at 5:35 pm

    some interesting numbers from George Santos’s district and the “How could Democrats let this happen?” narrative

    Jacob Rubashkin @JacobRubashkin

    George Santos’ favorable/unfavorable rating in his own districy is an abysmal 7%/83%. Among Jewish NY-3 voters, who he tried to cozy up to by claiming he was Jewish, it’s an even lower 4%/82%.

    Others: Biden 45/50, Trump 29/66, Zeldin 42/38, Hochul 41/48

  175. 175.

    WaterGirl

    January 31, 2023 at 5:35 pm

    @brantl: Maybe so!

  176. 176.

    Miss Bianca

    January 31, 2023 at 5:35 pm

    @Amir Khalid: Are we sure this isn’t actually an article from The Onion?

  177. 177.

    Matt McIrvin

    January 31, 2023 at 5:36 pm

    @Paul in KY: I think the idea is that this is supposed to be a weird legal loophole that specifically authorizes the administration to mint commemorative coins of any denomination made of platinum ONLY. It wouldn’t even work with any other type of coin, let alone a bill.

    That’s what makes it sound so much like the sympathetic-magic justifications that tax protestors concoct (“there’s gold fringe on the flag in the courtroom, therefore this is really an admiralty court and has no jurisdiction over me”). But apparently people with some legal knowledge take this one seriously.

  178. 178.

    WaterGirl

    January 31, 2023 at 5:37 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: What the heck is a secret hold?

  179. 179.

    Paul in KY

    January 31, 2023 at 5:37 pm

    @Old School: Thank you for that info. Did not know a ‘trillion dollar’ coin was specifically mentioned in some law.

  180. 180.

    WaterGirl

    January 31, 2023 at 5:38 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Two.  Her own and the one she co-hosts with Andrew McCabe.

  181. 181.

    Paul in KY

    January 31, 2023 at 5:39 pm

    @Matt McIrvin: Thanks for that info, Matt. Must be a coin of platinum.  Can’t be Germanium or Iridium.

  182. 182.

    UncleEbeneezer

    January 31, 2023 at 5:43 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Just two: The Daily Beans and the Jack Podcast.  TDB is 3-5 episodes a week, Jack is just once a week and is the deeper dive on the Smith SC investigations, with Andrew McCabe.

  183. 183.

    UncleEbeneezer

    January 31, 2023 at 5:45 pm

    @WaterGirl: She also had McCabe on TDB today to discuss McGonigal.  McCabe was shocked at the news but iterated that McGonigal was NOT one of the people involved in big decisions for the Crossfire Hurricane investigation and that such speculation is taking things too far.  Asha Rangappa also has a good sub stack article arguing the same.

  184. 184.

    Hob

    January 31, 2023 at 5:46 pm

    @vbreakwater: Yeah, that’s how I read the post too. Not at all saying that the current form of the GOP is in any way a good thing— just that since that is its current form, it’s best to have Democrats who clearly perceive it for what it is, which might be easier for Democrats who aren’t distracted by memories of an earlier era when it was somewhat less insane. I don’t know that I 100% agree, but that’s the argument.

  185. 185.

    Qrop Non Sequitur

    January 31, 2023 at 5:58 pm

    @Jeffro: If they’re willing to cut my interest rates in half, I may be persuaded to pay the other 400.

    There definitely won’t be new demands.

  186. 186.

    Sister Golden Bear

    January 31, 2023 at 6:06 pm

    @hueyplong: There’s a 100% chance that sometime during you life you’ve encountered a trans person who you didn’t realize was trans.

  187. 187.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    January 31, 2023 at 6:07 pm

    @vbreakwater: The O’Bros interviewed Frost a couple of weeks ago and I was prepared to cringe at an onslaught of the sort of left-twitter, Bernie-bro buzzword bingo we get from… other MoC who are proclaimed, not least by themselves, as The Voice of Young People (in spite of most of them being on my side of forty), but the kid seemed pretty well grounded and to have a sound grasp of politics, and talked like a normal person, not a twitter feed.

  188. 188.

    J R in WV

    January 31, 2023 at 6:07 pm

    I think Biden should be clear that the first thing to shut down will be the airlines. No flying anywhere until the Fed can spend again. Amtrak also too. Customs, nope. Borders, closed. Except for people feeding folks in prison and the VA hospitals, everything else is closed down. Everything. Make the Rs own the closure also too. Not just parks!  Banking, closed. Credit cards, closed, that’s regulated by the feds…

    Federal permitting? Nope. Nothing. Thanks, McCarthy! And this shouldn’t be a surprise. Tell McCarthy  IN PUBLIC what he will be blamed for. Promise it to him in a public manner which he cannot deny being aware of.

  189. 189.

    Ruckus

    January 31, 2023 at 6:08 pm

    @catclub:

    This is not good.

    No, it is not. And even worse we have a few democratic members of congress who likely agree with the concept of a debt ceiling. And the concept, I believe exists to act as a buffer/break on allowing the US government from reckless spending. However it does restrict what needs to be done when the population grows and different monies need to be spent if we are going to have an actual country/government as opposed to a rich assholes club who pay less in taxes/have far more power so that they can get far more wealthy. An example would be Elon, supposedly the world’s richest human, who has to borrow a lot of money to purchase at double the suggested value of whatever, in this case a website. He’s considered the worlds wealthiest human and it’s all made up wealth – because he has to sell something/something to purchase something else. IOW he’s not nearly as wealthy as everyone assumes (what’s that ass out of you and me thing?) but he likely pays an extremely small percentage of the taxes he should be paying, if the tax laws had any kind of equality to them. Reminds me of the West Wing episode where proportional taxation has to be explained by Will to some new staffers. Because in the case of taxation equality isn’t that we all pay the same rate, but that we should pay at the same ability level. IOW if you make a lot more you pay a higher percentage because you are more than wealthy enough to do so. But we also consider wealth to be overall wealth rather than useable or actual monetary  wealth, which is wealth that can be spent. Elon has far less actual monetary wealth and a huge percentage in corporate share wealth which he has to sell or use for collateral to use to purchase anything.

  190. 190.

    zhena gogolia

    January 31, 2023 at 6:09 pm

    @J R in WV: They’ll blame it on Biden.

  191. 191.

    Sister Golden Bear

    January 31, 2023 at 6:09 pm

    @rikyrah: it’s only if someone wear makeup “inconsistent” with the sex they were assigned at birth.

    Gotta make sure those toddlers and tiaras beauty pageants are safe, doncha know.  Definitely not grooming, no ma’am.

    Also too, as I’m sure you know, living with that constant hatred is wearing.

  192. 192.

    JPL

    January 31, 2023 at 6:24 pm

    @zhena gogolia: Of course they will!

  193. 193.

    Leslie

    January 31, 2023 at 6:24 pm

    Speaking of bullshit and bad faith, Soros’s new director of operations is a piece of work:

    https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/vish-burra-george-santos

    I think the link should be non-paywalled. Let me know if not and I can get a shareable link.

  194. 194.

    Baud

    January 31, 2023 at 6:26 pm

    @Leslie:

    You mean Santos?

  195. 195.

    Qrop Non Sequitur

    January 31, 2023 at 6:29 pm

    @Baud: OMG they’re the same person. It’s all coming together…

  196. 196.

    DMcK

    January 31, 2023 at 6:33 pm

    Hang on, are we talking about, y’know, THE Max Frost?​

  197. 197.

    zhena gogolia

    January 31, 2023 at 6:49 pm

    @Leslie: Soros??? I think you mean Santos.

  198. 198.

    zhena gogolia

    January 31, 2023 at 6:49 pm

    @Baud: Yeah, I had some heart palpitations.

  199. 199.

    Burnspbesq

    January 31, 2023 at 7:04 pm

    @WaterGirl:

    What the heck is a secret hold

    The entire case file related to the FBI’s attempt to get the search warrant it needs to look at the contents of Perry’s phone (which differs from the original search warrant that allowed them to grab it) is sealed because relates to an active grand jury investigation. Including the D.C. Circuit ruling granting a stay pending appeal (the FBI was apparently able to convince the District Court that Perry’ ridiculously expansive Speech and Debate Clause argument was bullshit).

  200. 200.

    jackmac

    January 31, 2023 at 7:37 pm

    @dmsilev: Was at my local Costco within the past hour where I picked up the legendary $4.99 roasted chicken and the $1.50 hot dog/soda combo!  Bargains remain in these inflationary times!

  201. 201.

    StringOnAStick

    January 31, 2023 at 8:08 pm

    Santos’ new director of operations is a guy by the last name of Burra, of Indian descent.  He produced Bannon’s podcast during 2020 and is the IT guy who made copies of the supposed Hunter Biden laptop and distributed them widely.  He previously worked for Gaetz but once the FBI backed off him, it wasn’t exciting enough for him anymore so he got himself connected to Santos.  His apparent highest values in life is to be the political equivalent of a shit poster, but with actual real impacts instead of a jerk on Twitter; he’s a malevolent jerk IRL.  TPM had a big story about him today, but it was filed before it became known that he’s told House R leadership that he’s stepping away from his committee assignments “until I clear my name”; that should be about never.

  202. 202.

    catclub

    January 31, 2023 at 9:39 pm

    @jackmac: I picked up the legendary $4.99 roasted chicken

    Chicken in a coffin, I call it.

  203. 203.

    Tony G

    January 31, 2023 at 10:02 pm

    @WaterGirl: To my knowledge, a “secret hold” is a special Gym Jordan wrestling move.

  204. 204.

    Geminid

    January 31, 2023 at 10:42 pm

    @StringOnAStick: I think McCarthy wants to keep Santos out of sight except for floor votes. I also read that leadership hopes that keeping Santos off of committees will smooth the way for McCarthy’s pet project of kicking Representative Omar off of the Foreign Relations Committee. McCarthy’s having trouble rounding up the 218 votes he needs.

  205. 205.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    January 31, 2023 at 11:24 pm

    @Geminid:

    Marge Greene, playing the role formerly played by Kevin McCarthy, said that quiet part out loud today.

    Ron Filipkowski @RonFilipkowski 11h

    Marge Greene says George Santos decided to step down from his committee assignments since there was too much drama around it and says it was distracting from her efforts to remove Ilhan Omar from committees.

  206. 206.

    WaterGirl

    February 1, 2023 at 8:57 am

    @Burnspbesq: A late thank you as I am just getting back to the thread!

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