Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

The republican caucus is already covering themselves with something, and it’s not glory.

Take hopelessness and turn it into resilience.

Today’s GOP: why go just far enough when too far is right there?

Too often we confuse noise with substance. too often we confuse setbacks with defeat.

Good lord, these people are nuts.

An almost top 10,000 blog!

The worst democrat is better than the best republican.

Despite his magical powers, I don’t think Trump is thinking this through, to be honest.

Authoritarian republicans are opposed to freedom for the rest of us.

The arc of history bends toward the same old fuckery.

Technically true, but collectively nonsense

We cannot abandon the truth and remain a free nation.

Republicans are the party of chaos and catastrophe.

Putting aside our relentless self-interest because the moral imperative is crystal clear.

If you tweet it in all caps, that makes it true!

Imperialist aggressors must be defeated, or the whole world loses.

This year has been the longest three days of putin’s life.

Putin must be throwing ketchup at the walls.

Republicans do not pay their debts.

Infrastructure week. at last.

Proof that we need a blogger ethics panel.

After roe, women are no longer free.

Russian mouthpiece, go fuck yourself.

Damn right I heard that as a threat.

You are here: Home / 2024 Elections / Saturday Morning Open Thread: The DNC Winter Meeting

Saturday Morning Open Thread: The DNC Winter Meeting

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Even the Wall Street Journal was, most unwillingly, impressed:

PHILADELPHIA—Democratic National Committee members gathered for their winter meeting say President Biden is in a stronger position than a year ago to claim his party’s 2024 nomination after a better-than-expected midterm election, legislative victories and a new foe to run against in the form of the GOP-controlled House. 

Mr. Biden has solidified his standing within the party compared to a year ago, when his legislative agenda appeared stalled and Democrats quietly talked about potential primary challenges.

“Let me ask you a simple question: Are you with me?” Mr. Biden said in Friday address to DNC members, who responded with loud chants of “four more years.” After outlining what he sees as his legislative achievements during his first two years in office, he told party activists: “We’ve got a lot more to do.”…

Mr. Biden faced few signs of dissent at a downtown Philadelphia hotel where DNC members on Saturday are expected to approve a 2024 primary calendar personally promoted by the president. The plan rewards South Carolina with the first spot, a nod to a state that boosted what was then a struggling campaign for Mr. Biden in 2020.

The DNC subcommittee on Thursday approved a resolution that pointed to a litany of administration accomplishments and expressed “full and complete support” for the re-election of the president and Vice President Kamala Harris, who will also address party activists here. The resolution is expected to be approved Saturday by the full DNC…

Pennsylvania remains among the nation’s pre-eminent battleground states in the country and has served as a political base for Mr. Biden, who spent part of his childhood in Scranton, and represented Delaware in the Senate for more than three decades. Party strategists at the DNC event briefed members on two major success stories in the state: John Fetterman‘s election to the Senate and Josh Shapiro capturing of the governors’ mansion. 

Mr. Biden is expected to make an announcement on his re-election campaign in March or April, according to people familiar with the process. His outgoing chief of staff, Ron Klain, suggested that the president’s pursuit of a second term was all but assured during a White House event Wednesday marking the transition to a new chief of staff. 

“I look forward to being by your side as you run for president in 2024,” said Mr. Klain.

In his nice well-tailored suit, Sen. Fetterman looks like a global ambassador from the World of Very Large People…

Reader Interactions

328Comments

  1. 1.

    Martin

    Fetterman looks about as comfortable in that suit as if he had shown up to that meeting in a Sailor Moon outfit.

  3. 3.

    UncleEbeneezer

    @Amir Khalid: Yes.  He is a huge Dem/Union supporter who does a lot of fundraising events etc.  I heard him on a SwingLeft podcast last year.  Seems like a cool dude.

  7. 7.

    gkoutnik

    First thought on seeing that first pic:  “Oh, Lord, if something terrible goes wrong in that room, Kevin McCarthy is President of the United States.”

  8. 8.

    WereBear

    Feels like… winning. In our elongated time period, I do feel like it has been a long time coming. That TFG administration  lasted at least a decade.

  12. 12.

    Tony Jay

    And good morning, everyone.

    It’s a day of missions. First I dig out the receipt for the spare PlayStation controller I got so I could play two-player games with the boy (translation – so he can whoop and holler as he snipes me repeatedly in the groin) and get it swapped for one that actually works.

    Then we go to the first meeting of our North Liverpool Food Social Group. We were part of a larger group that collects unused food from supermarkets and makes sure it gets given out free to families who really need it, but the woman heading that group turned out to be a paranoid, gas-lighting psycho (the stories!) so about 20 of us (the entire North Liverpool membership, basically) said “F€#k you, loon” and are going independent.

    We’ll collect the food, hand out or deliver it to pantries, food banks, shelters, etc, or our own Community Garden where I built a load of tables out of pallets that just seem to be getting bigger and bigger. An extra facet is going to be turning some of the veg and meat into soups and stews using a local kitchen which we’ll hand out free to people who come and collect food.

    Eventually (funding allowing) we’ll convert a van into a mobile kitchen (The Souper Van!) and take it into Town to deliver hot food to homeless people. Fingers crossed we’ll have that up and running by next winter.

    All of which fun and games means I’m going to miss the football, but that’s probably for the best.

    Harking back to Tamara’s late-night thread (early hours of the morning for me) I’ve loved me a bit of Måneskin since they rocked the hell out of Eurovision and only last week started driving into work with their songs blaring out on YouTube.

    Oddly, I prefer their songs in Italian. The tunes are so banging I don’t need to know what they’re singing about, and I prefer Damiano’s voice when he’s not adopting a weird English accent that sounds like he’s been binging “Sing Like A Cockney – Volume 2”

    Right. Breakfast. Ciao!

  13. 13.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Baud: 1 accidental death, 3 murders, financial crimes numbering in the hundreds, and a wealthy, connected scion at the middle of it all, being reported by a dogged small town investigative reporter who is fired for reporting on the events, and then hired at a different paper to continue her reporting.

    It’s a made for TV movie, except it’s real life.

  21. 21.

    PBK

    @Tony Jay: If you can I hope you keep us updated on this food group.  Absolutely great ideas.  A question about the cooked food…are you intending to serve it on site or packed up so people can take it home?

  22. 22.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Baud: It is really quite the story. I read a good article about the reporter and everything she dug up years ago before it became national news. I forget where I found the article.

    @Phylllis: I’m not so sure he’ll walk, the video evidence is pretty damning. If they can get his financial shenanigans into court, that too will speak to his guilt. But this isn’t his lawyer’s first rodeo. He knows what he’s doing.

    As to his guilt or innocence, I agree with you. At any rate, they really screwed the pooch at the crime scene.

  24. 24.

    Tony Jay

    @PBK:

    That’s one of the things up for discussion. We’re looking into reusable containers for when its families come to collect food from the set pick-up locations, hopefully something eco-friendly. They can hand them back when they’ve finished and we’ll wash them in the kitchen.

    When we get the mobile kitchen and are out and about, hopefully we’ll get funding for a load of sealable, plastic tubs that we can hand out to people with no fixed abode. They can keep them, bring them back for refills, etc.

    We want everything as eco as possible long term, but getting food into bellies is priority numero uno right now.

  26. 26.

    Jeffg166

    I will be 75 in eighteen days. I could not imagine myself doing what Biden does daily. I know he has a staff to help but it is a demanding job.

  30. 30.

    different-church-lady

    wait, just yesterday I was told democrats didn’t care about the middle class.

  38. 38.

    Betty Cracker

    Does anyone know if future primary maps beyond 2024 will be addressed at this meeting? There was talk about rotating first primaries early on, but nothing I’ve read so far says whether that provision made it into the plan they’ll be voting on at this meeting.

  42. 42.

    trnc

    @Cacti:

    If it’s a closed primary, as I believe SC is, whether the state as a whole is red or blue doesn’t mean as much.

    I also wonder if part of the calculus is about firing up SC dems to vote, but I doubt it’s possible to make much of a difference. Still, we thought the same about Georgia at one point.

  43. 43.

    The Castle

    Enshrining South Carolina as the first primary state will be a big mistake for many reasons.

    That this is even happening is pure political payback – SC rescued Biden’s campaign from the dustbin, so in good old political style, we’re giving the state a bump up in the line, rigging the system and ensuring Biden does have to first face electorates that rejected him in the primaries.  Maybe we forget, but he did really badly in the early contests.  He came in 4th in Iowa, 5th in New Hampshire, and 2nd in Nevada (narrowly, he almost came in 3rd). But he came in 1st in South Carolina, and so here we are.

  50. 50.

    Baud

    @Baud:

    So I was wrong. SC is open primary.  That could be an issue when there is a GOP incumbent and the Dem primary is contested.

  51. 51.

    lowtechcyclist

    @OzarkHillbilly: ​
     

    But this isn’t his lawyer’s first rodeo.

    No question about that. I moved out of South Carolina 30 years ago this summer, and Dick Harpootlian was well known in the state back then.

  52. 52.

    lowtechcyclist

    @schrodingers_cat:

    South Carolina goes first because the base of our party is black women. I will be here drinking the tears 😭 of Bernouts and Warrenites.

    First you’d have to find some Warrenites who are upset about this.  There are probably more of them living in your head than IRL.

  55. 55.

    WaterGirl

    @The Castle:

    That this is even happening is pure political payback.

    Seriously?  That a state with a solid African American population is going first is PURE political payback?  Do you think there might be other reasons they are going first instead of Lily White Iowa?  Like giving the most solid block in the Democratic party an earlier voice in the process?

  56. 56.

    NotMax

    Clever little YouTube channel to while away some time on. Don’t explicitly know if everything is fully error-free and unslanted but gut feeling from watching a few presentations whose titles intrigued me is 90 – 95% contextually accurate.

  57. 57.

    narya

    @Tony Jay: I have not tried them myself, but I’ve seen a lot of good reviews of the Stasher silicone containers. They’re quite pricey, but it sounds like they are reusable, washable, heatable, freezable, etc. Would not work in all situations, but a collection bin somewhere near where the food is handed out might work?

  58. 58.

    Kay

    Georgia has plenty of black women, it’s a bigger state with more electoral votes, it has a huge city with an existing AA power base and they elect Democrats statewide.

    The only reason to do SC first is to reward Clyburn – which is a reason!  But not a good one.

    They can keep saying “black women” or “black people” as the justification for SC but since GA exists that doesn’t make any sense. I don’t care that much but I confess I’m baffled why we’re rewarding a blood red state and not rewarding a better southern state for us, if this is political horsetrading.

  60. 60.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Jeffg166: ​I heard and felt one once. It was on the other side of the ridge* I live on. A great big boom and a jolt to the house. I thought it was an explosion but when I went outside to investigate I couldn’t see any smoke anywhere. About a year later I read of them and said, “AHA! That’s what that was.”
    * at the time I had no idea where it was, but my woodcutter told me last year about the “earthquake” they had over there and that scientists had investigated it.​

  61. 61.

    narya

    @Baud: Yes–I listen to the OBros (Pod Save America) and I think they were the ones who said it’s MUCH easier to get around a small state–Michigan and Georgia are both much larger–and that’s really useful for getting out the vote.

  62. 62.

    Geminid

    @Baud: Virginia is like South Carolina: no party registration, so all primaries are open.

    Last year the Republican nomination was uncontested and Hew Hewitt and others called for Republicans to jump into the Democratic primary to vote for Sanders. “So we have real choice” in November, the mendacious Hewitt explained. He and others also urged this for the South Carolina primary. I did not see evidence of a large crossover vote for Sanders though in either state.

    Open primaries do allow interested Independents to influence our nominees, and that is a different question and debate. I can only say I haven’t seen this hurt Democrats in Virginia.

  63. 63.

    lowtechcyclist

    @Baud:

    A lot of people want the first state to be a small one.

    I’m one of those, and IMHO there’s a good reason for it.  It takes more resources to compete in a large state, so it puts even more of a thumb on the scales in favor of candidates who’ve been able to raise money for years.

    For instance, it’s hard to see Obama winning the nomination in 2008 if the early states had been big states.

  64. 64.

    Kay

    @Baud:

    Okay. So it’s just wacky “small state” like Iowa was “caucuses”

    Georgia is HUGE for Democrats. 11 million people. A city with a (combined, admittedly they count a long ways out)  metro area of 5 million. Growing.

  65. 65.

    NotMax

    @schrodingers_cat

    Curious how people who own an EV and park outside are faring when temps get down in that range. Seem to recall a lot of those batteries are only rated for -20, and in some cases those batteries are liquid cooled.

  66. 66.

    Jeffro

    So with Biden clearly running again and a lot of D party unity, our national snooze media will SURELY have to follow all the chaos in the R-led House and all the infighting between trumpov and his various challengers for the 2024 nomination, right?  Non-stop “REPUBLICANS IN DISARRAY!!!1!”, right?

    Right?  ;)

  67. 67.

    Kay

    @Jeffro:

    I think the difficult senate map will (oddly) be a plus for getting them interested and out. They’ll want to hang onto it, especialy because they were predicted to lose big last time and that didn’t happen.

  70. 70.

    NotMax

    Vice President Harris addresses the extremists who want to ban books and attack voting rights at the DNC Winter meeting in Philadelphia, PA.

    Awkward phrasing. First thought was why oh why are such cretins in attendance?

  71. 71.

    UncleEbeneezer

    @Kay: I’ve seen the argument that SC is a smaller/cheaper tv market (than Atlanta), so that’s better for candidates with less $.  But it seems like the states are so close that it’s essentially the same market.  I don’t really care as long as it’s not a Lilly-white state and not a caucus.  Given our history and especially the fuckery of the South, it seems appropriate to give Black Southerners a fair chance to have input before Super Tuesday.  I’d prefer a closed primary but again this is hardly something I’m gonna lose sleep over.

  72. 72.

    WaterGirl

    @Kay: Isn’t GA also one of the early states this year?

    Also, I believe this is the order for 2024, but it has not been established that this is the order going forward after that.

  73. 73.

    mrmoshpotato

    @Tony Jay:

    First I dig out the receipt for the spare PlayStation controller I got so I could play two-player games with the boy (translation – so he can whoop and holler as he snipes me repeatedly in the groin)

    I can only assume the video game avatar(?) yells out, “Why’d you shoot me in the cock?!”, and that’s why you know this.

  74. 74.

    NotMax

    Trying the Nordic noirish series Kieler Street on MHz Choice on for size. For whatever reason program is available to U.S. subscribers only, which labeling intrigued me enough to jump in. Undecided on it yet, however enough there to keep going with it for now. What struck me most when watching is being able to mentally tick off all the many, many, many ways American TV would eff it up were a U.S. version attempted. Can readily see it going off every rail on the Amtrak map.

  75. 75.

    UncleEbeneezer

    @different-church-lady: Any time someone says “Dems just need to do X” 99.9% of the time X is something they are already doing.  The idea that the Dem Party somehow ignores middle class voters is just laughable.

  76. 76.

    oldgold

    I am not so sure primaries for national, state and local offices are the best method for selecting candidates.

    Since the country has gone almost universally to using primaries to select candidates, are we getting better candidates? Are we getting better governance?

  78. 78.

    Nelle

    @lowtechcyclist: I was going to say tgat I don’t group those two together at all.  Have “Warrenites” even persisted as a group?  She was very clear that she wanted to see her ideas implemented, more than her winning so I never saw it as a personality cult.

  82. 82.

    Princess

    South Carolina being a small state and a deep red state makes it easier to ignore its result. It is going to be Iowa redux. Slight improvement, nothing revolutionary. It is still going to be about the first four, not the first.

  84. 84.

    Princess

    @Nelle: there’s a small segment of Kamala Harris fans who need to believe that Warrenites exist so they can feel they’re in high school again.

    it ignores the fact that everyone I knew in 2020 who was for Warren or Harris had the other one as a close second choice.

  85. 85.

    sab

    @Nelle: I am a Warrenite and I agree with you. I think Biden and Harris are amazing. Ditto Pelosi, Jeffries and Shumer. I am just glad to be a Democrat when we are in array

    ETA And I am beyond thrilled to have Emilia Sykes as my congressional rep instead of Tim Ryan.

  87. 87.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @oldgold: ​
      How do you feel about votes for women and the direct election of senators? As long as we are talking about rejecting to the 19th Century, what else is on the table? Seriously, getting rid of primaries isn’t on the cards, so isn’t finding a way to make the system work as a well as possible the way to go?

  89. 89.

    Princess

    @oldgold: I’m going to take you seriously for a minute. If the men in smoky rooms had decided, we would have had Jeb! For GOP instead of Trump in 2016. We’d get de Santis in 2024. We’d still get Romney 2012, McCain 2008, unless we got him already in 2000. On the Dem side, I think we still get Biden in 2020 and Hillary 2016. Except no, it would be Hillary not Obama in 2008 for sure. So Tin Caine maybe. We’d still get Kerry and Gore.

  90. 90.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Kay: No one is going to okay a state as large as Georgia for first primary.  Too many votes at stake.  Too expensive.  Everyone the appeal of IA and NH is that they are fairly small.  One can visit the major population centers without too much trouble or expense, and, if you don’t do well, you can still overcome it.  Remember how many people were writing Biden off after IA and NH?  People here were fighting over the relative merits of Sanders and Bloomberg.

  92. 92.

    Nelle

    @Princess: I’m in Iowa (moved here in 2019…to assist with grandchildren.  Otherwise, we’d be gone so fast..).  Plenty of candidates to meet.  So we got to go through candidates as they dropped out.  I went from Julian Castro (for immigration policy), to Harris, to Warren.  Deb Haaland was one if Warren’s co-chairs and I quite liked listening to her.  So glad she is in the Cabinet.  Warren brought forward good women.  I enjoyed meeting Corey Booker, too.  At the time, my greatest reservation about both Warren and Biden was age (and Biden had the white male thing too).  For me, he is great example of learning throughout life, letting experience change you.  I still saw him as the senator from financial Delaware.  He learns from those around him, though.  Not many, old or young, have the capacity to do so.

  93. 93.

    JML

    This is a reasonable set up and change. Iowa caucuses have turned into a mess, the state isn’t diverse enough, and frankly the state itself is less and less competitive for democrats. I like having a small to medium sized state in different regions being the first four states out the gate. After that, I would group them together with 3-5 states in different regions going, with smaller states tending to go early.

    I know a lot of people like Pete Buttigieg, but his entire candidacy was built on the fact that he could basically move to Iowa for 6 months and work delegates individually. I’d really rather have candidates that have been tested in state-wide races and larger elections not be forced to leave office in order to run and have to compete in that way. I’d like candidates who haven’t been tested in that way have to show they can win a state-wide election before being catapulted onto the main stage.

    I think the new setup does ok with this. It’s always going to be imperfect, but this feels like an advance.

  99. 99.

    Tony Jay

    @Baud:

    That’s not your route to the White House. Balloon Juice would overwhelmingly pick Devin Nunes’ Cow for the megaLOLs.

  101. 101.

    M31

    I like the ‘purely political’ aspect of this — “do us a solid and we’ll have your back” is pretty good politics, and the fact that it’s blacks in SC (rather than creep-ass evangelicals/book burners/drag-queen hating panty-sniffers) as the target bloc is great.

    That said, I hope GA or NC (put your purple-to-blue fantasy state here) is next early (even though they’re large and probs expensive), anything to get the dems activated in places with potential big payoff, is first up next time.

  102. 102.

    rikyrah

    @Kay:

    SC is more rural and less expensive to run in than Georgia.

    You have to reach the base of the party.

    I will never get over those in 2020 who were pushing Biden to get out of the race before South Carolina, and Black voters in the South had had their say.

     

    The infuriating dance of going to bumblephuck Iowa and New Hampshire and the endless stories from diners. Well now, they can spend serious time talking to Black voters.

  104. 104.

    rikyrah

    I do want Georgia to move up to like first four.

    In 2022, our primary was moved to June as a result of the census.

     

    I want it back in March, or better yet, Super Tuesday in 2024

  105. 105.

    oldgold

    @WaterGirl:

    I do not think our choices are limited to the primaries as currently constituted or smoke filled rooms where regular people have no say.

    I know this, using primaries as currently constituted has resulted in the  extremes of both parties have more influence than is good for our body politic.

  109. 109.

    Kay

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Remember how many people were writing Biden off after IA and NH?  People here were fighting over the relative merits of Sanders and Bloomberg.

    Fighting the last war. I’m not arguing Iowa and NH should remain first. That’s done. I’m arguing a blue southern state over a red one. It’s going to be Biden and there’s an incumbent advantage. He could essentially run a general election campaign in during the “primary” and define whatever assholes they’re running early.
    We’re not having a primary.

  110. 110.

    oldgold

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Hell, why you are at it, why not accuse me of wanting to rescind the 13th Amendment?

    This primary system is not producing good results. It rewards monied interests and the extremes of both parties. Both are leading to piss poor governance at the local, state and national level.

  111. 111.

    Geminid

    @Omnes Omnibus: I see there is a push on now to get AMTRAK service between Madison and Milwaukee. I hope it succeeds.

    AMTRAK started service from Burlington, Vermont last  suller and an article in Seven Days Vermont (sevendaysvt.com) describes it as a success at 8.000 riders a month and growing. There was worry  that the Ethan Allen Express might take riders from passenger train service running from DC to Saint Albans, but ridership on that route increased also.

  112. 112.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Kay: ​
      I think we all understand that none of this matters for 2024. In 2028, however, the same concerns from prior years about the size of state will still apply.

  113. 113.

    oldgold

    @Baud:

    So far, at the Presidential level, the Ds have avoided a Trump like catastrophe. But, I think that at other levels, not to the the degree of the GOP, the primary system has yielded much less than optimal results. The 2020 Iowa Senate Candidate and 2022 Wisconsin Senate candidate are examples.

  114. 114.

    MomSense

    It’s a tid bit nip outside this morning.  Temps were -21 with the wind chill -64 overnight. It’s now -1 wind chill -20.  Not even my cold loving dog wanted to stay outside this morning.  She is sleeping in front of the fire this morning.

  117. 117.

    Baud

    @oldgold:

    Any system can produce bad candidates. You’ve got a lot of work to do if you’re going to come up with a better system than letting voters decide.

  118. 118.

    Kay

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    lol. The size of the state is the issue. That’s why this is just a 2024 map.

    It’s to reward Clyburn! I’m okay with political paybacks, though. I don’t think it’s “rigged” or anything ridiculous like that – it’s completely normal and not a big deal. I think we need more Party politics, not less and that’s what this is.

  119. 119.

    Princess

    @oldgold: which Dem candidate do you think is at the extreme of their party? Biden? Hillary? Obama?

    if you’re talking house candidates, that’s because of gerrymandering not primaries.

  121. 121.

    Suzanne

    I don’t mind SC going first. I agree with some others who say that the justification that a small state should go first is some degree of nonsense. The core of the party is really urban dwellers (of multiple races), and that is proving to be fairly consistent across the country. I do think it’s fairly crappy that residents of the country’s largest cities don’t get to weigh in early in the process.

    The whole “eat some fried nonsense at the state fair” schtick has got to end. It’s so, so bad.

    It is sunny, but cold AF. So no taking my kids to the park today. They are bouncing off the walls and making me crazy. BAAAAAAAAH.

    —

    I have been trying to improve the aesthetic quality of my home, so to that end, I got two pieces of art framed. Picked them up from the frame shop yesterday. One is a papyrus that was (I think) given to my grandfather by a friend/colleague back in the early 70s. It is from the “Dr. Rajab Papyrus Institute” in Cairo. I loved it when I was a kid, and I’m glad that I was able to keep it when he dispersed of his belongings when he downsized late in his life. The other one is a photograph from a family album. One branch of my family tree were among the first white people in Alaska, and they had local prominence in Juneau, and served in territorial government. There was one photograph from the album that just took my breath away, with this boat on a crystal clear lake, taken probably 150 years ago. So now it’s on the wall. They both look so good.

    I am really not an interior designer, but it is a joy to work on my house.

  124. 124.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @oldgold: Who would you have preferred over Mandela Barnes?  Godlewski, a champion fundraiser who had some ethical issues due to attacking big pharma while owning a bunch of pharma stocks?  Lasry, whose family co-owns the Bucks and whose work history includes an up and down relationship with labor and unions?  Larson or Nelson, who were almost the definition of fringe?

  125. 125.

    Another Scott

    @Kay: I think that it is just a 2024 map because the party – rightly – can look at results and make adjustments.  And the party leadership can and does change over time.

    SC first is good, no matter who is running as a Democrat in 2024.

    There are no blue southern (SE) states right now.  Moving out of Iowa and New Hampshire and into SC can start the process of changing that (by giving the region and the voters more attention).

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  126. 126.

    schrodingers_cat

    @Suzanne: Did you enlarge the old photo before framing it? If yes, how did you do it, if you don’t mind sharing. I have some old family photos that I would like to frame. Some of them are tiny and I don’t have a negative for them. Thanks

  128. 128.

    Suzanne

    @schrodingers_cat: I did not enlarge the photo. I have enlarged others, though. Anywhere that does photo services should be able to do a high-res scan and print it for you, though. I used to use Costco, but that’s because there was one right down the street. I’m sure if you look up a local photography store, they can either do it or point you in the right direction.

  129. 129.

    What Have The Romans Ever Done for Us?

    @Ceci n est pas mon nym: Yeah I realize Biden owes SC Democrats, but this kind of reward shouldn’t be based on a one off election cycle. I’d rather reward a reliably blue or swing state. SC Dems ARE Dems, but the Dems aren’t winning the general election in SC for the foreseeable future. Why pick a State from which you’re never going to draw electors? When you could reward say, MI, PA, or CA, NY or MA, MD, etc.? These are States that are definitely more representative of mainstream America Demographically than IA or NH but in which Democrats can win the general election. SC is better than IA or NH but there are States that seem more deserving.

  130. 130.

    oldgold

    @Princess:

    Yes, gerrymandering is a problem; particularly, when aided and abetted by sophisticated technology.  But, that does not mean our current system of selecting candidates is not a problem.

  132. 132.

    Kay

    There’s no coverage of this womens health issue and no investment in coverage (other than women volunteering to write unpaid editorials to benefit billion dollar media companies) so Democrats will have to spend a lot of money buying coverage – unfortunately they’ll be paying the same media companies who refuse to invest any resouces at all in covering this but there’s no way around that sucky deal.

    And right on cue: Twenty Republican state attorneys general have signed onto a letter threatening CVS and Walgreens about abortion medication, warning them that they would be breaking the law if they use the mail to send or distribute abortion pills. (The letter says that they disagree with Department of Justice’s determination that it’s not illegal to ship abortion medication.) Essentially, this is a way for state AGs to make it impossible for the retail pharmacies to ship necessary medications to certain states. And please remember that abortion medication is also a standard treatment for miscarriages—so this threat could also keep pharmacies from having medication in stock that is necessary to treat women who are losing wanted pregnancies.
    When I reported on Wyoming Republicans’ efforts to ban abortion medication in the state last week, OBGYN Dr. Giovannina Anthony said something about the consequences of that move that’s absolutely applicable here: “This will truly be a crisis in the practice of obstetrics and gynecology…the reality of banning and criminalizing these drugs is they will not be available.”     Again, which means women having miscarriages won’t have access to the medication that they need.

    Abortion pills are also used to treat miscarriages. When the pills are banned women will permitted only medically substandard, lower quality care for a miscarriage in the United States. Could be as many as 100k women a year directly affected. Democrats will have to fund this public service message themselves.

  135. 135.

    Kay

    @Another Scott:

    I dont think it’s the best possible decision but I don’t care that much- I will be focused on the senate and the volunteer work I do for womens modern, standard-of-care health access which is no longer available to women in large sections of the United States. They’re getting second rate care because of the demands of far Right religious extremists.

  136. 136.

    Geminid

    I see that Republican Representative Victoria Spartz of Indiana has announced she will not run for reelection in 2024. She says she wants to spend more time with her two teenage daughters. Spartz has been mentioned as a potential candidate for Senate in 2024 but she has ruled that out also.

  141. 141.

    PaulB

    @oldgold:  But, that does not mean our current system of selecting candidates is not a problem.

    With all due respect, you have yet to demonstrate that a) there is a real, verifiable problem specifically associated with primaries, and b) that you have a viable solution that will solve any such problem and that will not, in turn, be subject to new problems.

    Until you do, I’m going to pass on this discussion, as it is generating far more heat than light. When you have actually thought this through, feel free to return, at which point you’ll almost certainly find that your reception here will be quite different.

  146. 146.

    schrodingers_cat

    @oldgold: Mandela Barnes thought that parading around with BS was a winning strategy in purple Wisconsin. When I got a fundraising text for Barnes from the Maple Syrup Moses I immediately blocked him. Bet I was not the only one who did that.
    When Fetterman won the primary he pivoted to the center. Barnes didn’t. Fetterman is in the Senate and Barnes is not. Fetterman won because he had better political instincts and I am saying this as not the biggest fan of Fetterman. He did what he had to do win and I am glad.

  148. 148.

    PaulB

    @Kay:  Here’s the daily NYTimes coverage of  “free speech” and “cancel culture” on Ivy League campuses.

    This is the stupid shit they pay people to write and yet they won’t pay women to write about the womens health care crisis in the United States.

    It’s even dumber than you might think, since the very first paragraph is bullshit. She writes:

    The following is a celebration of the cancellation of the Elimination of Harmful Language Initiative, an attempt by a committee of I.T. leaders at Stanford University to ban 161 common words and phrases.

    But that is emphatically not what the IT folks at Stanford University were doing, or attempting to do. This was debunked almost immediately. Instead, what they were doing was writing guidelines for content posted on the official Stanford University website. Nothing was “banned,” students weren’t told to not use those terms, nor was there any attempt to extend this outside of the university’s own website. It’s all just nonsensical garbage from the usual suspects.

    Every institutional or corporate website has similar guidelines about what can, and cannot, be posted to the website, with similar guidelines, suggestions and restrictions about how to phrase the content. There was nothing new, or even particularly controversial, about the Stanford University guidelines. Nor was any “free speech” issue involved in any way.

    But dishonest morons like that op-ed writer were absolutely determined that this was “cancel culture,” so they took off and ran with it, throwing truth and accuracy out the window as they did so.

    What I particularly hate is what this is doing to our discourse. And I absolutely guarantee that she will suffer no harm for that dishonest op-ed. Maddening.

  149. 149.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @schrodingers_cat: ​
     

    Mandela Barnes thought that parading around with BS was a winning strategy in purple Wisconsin.

    Parading around? Come on. Also, running to the middle in WI is useless. WI is purple because its red are very red and its blues are very blue. There is near even split. Almost every election in the state is a turnout the base election. You also need to remember that Sanders won the 2016 primary by a lot. An endorsement by him and a couple of campaign appearances (what actually happened) was not a liability in this state. But I am sure you know best.

  150. 150.

    zhena gogolia

    @PaulB: Oh, god, as soon as I see that byline I know to just skip, skip, skip. She’s the new Bobo.

    Ex-wife of Bret Stephens, now married to a hedge fund manager.

    SHE IS THE WORST SHE MAKES MAUREEN DOWD LOOK LIKE EUDORA WELTY

  151. 151.

    Alison Rose

    @Kay: I read that essay yesterday and I wanted to dropkick my laptop across the room. Especially since some of those words are genuinely inappropriate and based on offensive origins. And I will never understand the fucking tantrums over “Oh no, I’m not supposed to use a certain word for which I have endless substitutions” thing. Grow up and get over it and pick another word.

  153. 153.

    PaulB

    Can we pick something other than Wisconsin? Johnson was the incumbent, with all of the advantages that brings, and he won by less than 27,000 votes, a single percentage point, out of nearly 2.65 million votes. A race that close does not lend itself well to broader discussions about electoral strategies and discussions about primaries vs. whatever.

    If you want to have this discussion in a more neutral manner, why not pick the Republican primary in Georgia? Or the Democratic primary in Pennsylvania?

  154. 154.

    Suzanne

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    You also need to remember that Sanders won the 2016 primary by a lot. An endorsement by him and a couple of campaign appearances (what actually happened) was not a liability in this state. 

    Thank you.
    The dynamics of how to put together a winning coalition are different in each state. In some places, running to the left is wise. This reflexive loathing of leftists is just ludicrous, IMO. They’re an important part of the coalition.

    Barnes came pretty close to a win. And he had a tough needle to thread.

    Good candidates can still lose, y’all. They do, all the time.

  155. 155.

    Kay

    @PaulB:

    Thank you for the info.

    90% of the “campus controversies” these writers are obsessed with are hugely exaggerated or they get it just plain WRONG.

    Because they’re lazy and they just churn out “cancel culture” junk weekly and the NYTimes is always happy to pay for it.

    I’m amused by people who live in the United States and insist on depicting higher education as the Ivy League. Do they know how ridiculous they sound? Do they have any clue where the the vast, vast majority of people attend college and what they study there? It isn’t critical race theory!

  157. 157.

    Kay

    @schrodingers_cat:

    It’s just thew wrong way to think about it though. It isn’t how people behave.

    You and I talk about this a lot so here’s an exhaustive survey of attitudes towards womens agency and liberty and gender. 

    It’s 75 pages (I didn’t read the whole thing) and it’s pretty interesting. Views on women don’t correlate with gender. Views on women correlate with believing that women are “irresponsible” (and in my view that’s where the push to police and punish them comes from)

    So Republican women think poorly OF WOMEN, they believe women need policing, while men who describe themselves as “independents” do not believe that about women.

    It really is “punish the sluts” and GOP women want them policed and punished much more than Democratic or Independent men. So saying “well, women should” do this or that doesn’t apply. It just isn’t how it works. Like all liberal politics it willl be coalition politics- it wil be liberal women, liberal men and independents. Conservative women and men will be on the other side.

    I just want this issue treated like all the other coalition politics issues, for those no one says “well, go persuade Right wingers or you’re screwed”. That is only offered on womens issues.

  159. 159.

    Geminid

    @rikyrah: I was kind of surprised to see how low some AMTRAK tickets are. My friend Joan bought a roundtrip ticket, Charlottesville to New York City for $62.

  160. 160.

    Frankensteinbeck

    @oldgold:

    That article is pretty bad.  It Both Sides outrageously, and presents no evidence that primaries are responsible, instead gliding over an admission that gerrymandering causes most of the extreme partisanship.  Its only counter-proposal is Alaska’s ranked choice general, which it openly admits the one test of was a situation too unusual to judge its usefulness.

    A discussion of ‘would a ranked choice general election be better than primaries for statewide offices?’ is potentially interesting.

  161. 161.

    PaulB

    @oldgold: Look, in the comments it is difficult to produce an essay.

    It really isn’t. I just provided a short one above about the dishonest op-ed about Stanford University’s “cancel culture.” As for the NPR link you provided, that’s an op-ed that also provides zero actual data that primaries are the source of the problems he describes, as compared to, say, extreme gerrymandering.

    As for ranked-choice voting, the one example he uses is the Alaska system, which is different because a) Alaska has only one Representative, so the election is statewide (no gerrymandering possible), and b) the presence of Palin distorted the election.

    Other states have somewhat similar “top-two” primary elections (e.g., California in 2010 and Washington in 2004). How have candidates in those states changed since the system was put in place? If there has been significant movement toward the center in those states, then you would have a better argument that the more traditional Party primary should give way.

    I should note that, personally, I have no problem with top-two primaries, nor with ranked choice. But your claim that our primary system, whic has been around for decades, is at the root of our partisanship divide, just doesn’t hold up.

  162. 162.

    Baud

    I’m opposed to first past the post because I don’t like the idea of declaring a plurality winner as a matter of democratic principles.  But I can only speculate as to its impact on quality or polarization.

  164. 164.

    smintheus

    @The Castle:  “does not”, but I agree completely. This is an undemocratic move reminiscent of the kind of garbage you expect from Republicans. It’s payback both to SC and to NH for the way they voted last time. It’s also an endorsement of the anti-democratic old school system in SC in which political kingmakers rather than voters selected their preferred candidate.

     

    Biden is risking losing NH for Democrats for years to come. The state basically invented the modern primary, the rest of the country followed their lead, and voters there have been good for generations about getting out to meet and vet candidates. Many will view this as a slap in the face…as well as corrupt. Biden and Democrats need to be setting an example of bolstering democracy, rather than trying to manipulate it in imitation of Republican fascists.

  166. 166.

    schrodingers_cat

    @Omnes Omnibus: I don’t know Wisconsin at all. All I know is he and EW do not appeal to non-white people in the Dem coalition as much as they do to the white Ds with college education. And primary electorate is not representative of the general election electorate. So BS winning the primary doesn’t say much about the general election results.

  167. 167.

    Baud

    The fundamental problem with the presidential primary is that, no matter what the order, early states will have more of a voice.

  168. 168.

    smintheus

    @Kay:  Even specialist pubs like Journal of Higher Education routinely get campus controversies badly wrong. That’s partly because the chattiest people usually have vested interests in spinning the controversy.

  169. 169.

    schrodingers_cat

    @Baud: Any electoral system where there are 2 or more candidates and no one gets over 50% are going to produce results that are counterintuitive and won’t satisfy everyone.

    First past the post is the easiest to understand.

  170. 170.

    Baud

    @schrodingers_cat:

    There’s no perfect system, but first past the post leads to winners with low pluralities oftentimes.  I don’t care what mechanism we use to get to 50%, but I want one.

  171. 171.

    Another Scott

    @PaulB: +1

    But it’s even more than that.

    It wasn’t a Stanford University-wide initiative.  It was an initiative of the IT department.  Just for the IT department.

    And it was nothing nefarious.  It was :

    “Before thinking about naming and talking about ‘master’ and ‘slave’ computer systems, maybe think about calling them different terms that do not have such horrific baggage with them.”

    And similar things. That’s all it was.

    Yeah, maybe they could have used different words to describe it.

    But the “controversy” is yet another illustration that reality does not matter to the RWNJs.  The actual ideas don’t matter to them – they make crap up and take everything out of context.  And it’s nothing new.  (e.g. I remember hearing as a kid in suburban Atlanta in the early 1970s that Ted Kennedy’s Senate Bill 1 was going to take away everyone’s guns and put us all in gulags, because that is what Democrats really want to do, you see.)

    I understand the need to fight against this stuff, but I continue to believe that when we (rhetorical we) are always responding to what they want to talk about then we aren’t talking about what we want to talk about – like how we can make things better for everyone (even people who don’t like Democrats)…

    Memes are great for grabbing clicks and eyeballs, not so great for doing the actual in-the-trenches work of problem-solving in political institutions.

    Eyes on the prizes.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  172. 172.

    schrodingers_cat

    @Baud: Runoffs when there is no majority would be a better system.

    I know that rank choice voting is advertised by its proponents as an instant run off but I disagree with that characterization.

  173. 173.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @The Castle:

    Maybe we forget, but he did really badly in the early contests.  He came in 4th in Iowa, 5th in New Hampshire, and 2nd in Nevada (narrowly, he almost came in 3rd). But he came in 1st in South Carolina, and so here we are.

    I haven’t forgotten. That’s kind of the point. Overwhelmingly white states and caucuses make for poor representation of the national party.

  174. 174.

    oldgold

    @Frankensteinbeck:   Ok, if you do not like that essay, here is one from the Atlantic.

    “This is the “primary problem” in the U.S. political system today: A small minority of Americans decide the significant majority of our elections in partisan primaries that disenfranchise voters, distort representation, and fuel extremism––on both the left and, most acutely (at present), the right.”

    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/03/party-primaries-must-go/618428/

  175. 175.

    smintheus

    @Baud: ​
      I don’t think “never” is correct. What is true is that the state that goes first has more influence and therefore will attract jealousies…unless you shift to selecting the order randomly, or revolving the order every 4 years.

    NH is the logical first choice for historical reasons. There *might* be some other logical basis for making that choice differently (ie the biggest state, or the closest swing state). But there is no logic at all to making SC the first, except pay-back and/or rewarding voters who vote how they’re told by their political betters. This is a disastrously ugly thing Biden is doing to the Democratic brand.

  176. 176.

    suzanne

    @smintheus:

    Biden is risking losing NH for Democrats for years to come. The state basically invented the modern primary, the rest of the country followed their lead, and voters there have been good for generations about getting out to meet and vet candidates. 

    And yet Californians and New Yorkers show up to vote for Democrats, even though candidates rarely even bother to show up, because those states are as close as possible to a sure thing.

    If New Hampshire-ians can’t be bothered to vote unless they are personally asked for their votes….fuck that.

    I’d rather see Illinois or Nevada or New Mexico go before South Carolina, but IDGAF about the feelings of the residents in New Hampshire.

  177. 177.

    WaterGirl

    @Geminid: The earlier you buy your Amtrak tickets, the cheaper they are.  The 1st x% are easily half price.  the next x% are still seriously discounted but not to 50%.  And so on.

    If you plan ahead, it can be affordable.

  178. 178.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @schrodingers_cat: ​
      If Barnes had, in fact, paraded around WI with Sanders, your critique might have value. Instead, Sanders was coming to the state (where, as noted, he is not unpopular) and, while here, did an couple appearances with Barnes. Barnes’s endorsement from, for example, Gwen Moore was probably a bigger factor with POC in WI than anything to do with Sanders.

  179. 179.

    Baud

    @oldgold:

    That essay is calling for open primaries, not moving away from primaries altogether.  I believe most states now have some form of open primaries.  I’m not the hugest fan, but open primaries are still primaries.

  180. 180.

    JML

    @Geminid: If WI hadn’t had Scott Walker in charge, we might have high speed rail from Saint Paul to Chicago via MKE. God, that guy was the worst.

  181. 181.

    PaulB

    @Baud:  There’s no perfect system, but first past the post leads to winners with low pluralities oftentimes.  I don’t care what mechanism we use to get to 50%, but I want one.

    See, for example, the 2012 election in California’s 31st District, in which far more voters voted for Democratic candidates, but the top two vote-getters were both Republican, due to four strong Democratic candidates splitting the vote.

    Some would also argue that the same thing happened in Alaska in 2022, with more people setting out to vote for Republican candidates, but with a Democratic candidate taking the win. Like you said, there is no perfect system.

  182. 182.

    Madeleine

    @Kay: Thanks for the link to the survey, Kay. and thanks for your comments generally. Even when I’m skimming, I stop at your name.

  183. 183.

    Baud

    @smintheus:

    SC is an improvement over NH for Dems.  There’s nothing logical about NH except vested privilege.  Any reform pisses off somebody.  We just have to bite the bullet each time we improve the system.

  184. 184.

    Sure Lurkalot

    @Omnes Omnibus: My Wisconsin friends, few as they may be, are the bluest of blue. From my conversations with them, they too report that their fellow Democrats are left of mainstream and the Republicans are steeped in right wing zealotry and wingnuttery. It appears from my outside view that it has a storied and fairly unique electorate.

  186. 186.

    PaulB

    @smintheus:  But there is no logic at all to making SC the first

    There really is, and it has been expressed more than once. Your refusal to acknowledge that logic, along with your hyperbolic rhetoric, is not helping your case. I mean, seriously: “This is a disastrously ugly thing Biden is doing to the Democratic brand.” WTF is wrong with you?

  187. 187.

    Geminid

    @schrodingers_cat: I kind of like runoffs myself, but I know that’s not gonna fly. I’m just glad ranked-choice voting has begun in a limited number of places so the rest of us get a chance to evaluate its merits and demerits better.

    But I think more jurisdictions will be adopting RCV over this decade.

  188. 188.

    mdblanche

    In his nice well-tailored suit, Sen. Fetterman looks like a global ambassador from the World of Very Large People…

    Should I be worried that he’s been spotted reading a book titled To Serve Man?

  190. 190.

    Sure Lurkalot

    @PaulB:

    And I absolutely guarantee that she will suffer no harm for that dishonest op-ed.

    Pamela Paul is as disingenuous as they come and a sloppy thinker to boot. Seems like the qualifications for the NYT opinion page today.

  193. 193.

    oldgold

    @Baud:  My point in referencing these essays is to show that I am not alone in suggesting that primaries as currently constituted are having a negative impact on our body politic. And, it is a good idea to think about and hopefully implement some constructive changes to this system. It is not clear to me why this is being treated as such an outlandish position.

  198. 198.

    JML

    @Geminid: I get really frustrated seeing people crusading against caucuses because of how complicated they are and how they disenfranchise voters pushing RCV. Because RCV is also complicated for people (especially for anyone where English is not their first language).

    So far, RCV hasn’t accomplished what it’s proponents claimed it would in my state (for munis so far). It hasn’t increased turnout, it hasn’t guaranteed majority wins, it hasn’t reduced negative campaigning at all, none of it.

  199. 199.

    PaulB

    @oldgold:  Ok, if you do not like that essay, here is one from the Atlantic.

    That’s got the same problem as your prior example: a lack of actual data to support the claims. And the claims in that op-ed are even more extreme: “disenfranchise voters, distort representation, and fuel extremism?” Seriously?

    The essay also acknowledges the role of gerrymandering, but fails to acknowledge that the gerrymandering, not the primary, is the root cause. And, like your other example, it fixates on Alaska without acknowledging the differences that made Alaska’s 2022 election unique and not necessarily a good model.

  200. 200.

    ian

    @oldgold: That article contains the same assumptions that people have pointed out in this thread.  The problem isn’t primaries, it is gerrymandering (which the article does in fact note, right after it blames primaries for this problem).  Additionally, primaries do not disenfranchise anyone.  People are free to change their political party registration in advance of a primary to participate.  Now, some states have taken steps to make this harder, but that is those states disenfranchising/making more cumbersome the process.

    Finally the article makes the argument that Alaska has achieved the perfect system of doing primaries.  The only ‘proof’ of this is that candidates we liked won over candidates that didn’t.  Pelota beat Palin, and Murkowski beat Tshibaka.  If it had gone the other way (which it very well could have), the authors probably wouldn’t be extolling the virtue of this system.

  201. 201.

    Baud

    @smintheus:

    It’s not corruption.  Corruption is a BS word used by anti-Dems.  And the notion that SC should be excluded from consideration because they supported Biden is also BS.

  202. 202.

    Kay

    @schrodingers_cat:

    There’s a hard headed reason the Democratic coalition should support womens agency and liberty going forward- look at the age breakdown in that poll.

    Younger respondents, particularly those 18 to 29, are the least likely to hold sexist beliefs, the most likely to want women to have equal positions of power in society, the most likely think gender is a function of who we know ourselves to be, and the most likely to want abortion legal in all or most cases.

    It’s not gender- it’s this:

    Top predictors of views toward legality:
    • Agree/disagree: Most women who have an abortion are using it as birth
    control
    • Agree/disagree: There are many irresponsible women who will decide to
    have an abortion up until the moment of birth
    • Thinking women aren’t capable of making the best decision on abortion for
    themselves – they need to be guided

    Thinking women aren’t capable of making the best decision on abortion for themselves- they need to be guided. Yikes.

    GOP women believe that almost to the extent that GOP men do (although GOP men are the hands down winners on sexism)

  204. 204.

    PaulB

    @smintheus:  You don’t care about corruption? Because rewarding SC and punishing NH for the way they voted is corrupt.

    If that had actually happened, you would have a point. It didn’t, and you don’t. Seriously, just stop digging this hole you’re in.

  206. 206.

    Baud

    If NH Dems was to turn fascist over their first primary privilege, that just confirms the party did the right thing in removing their influence.

  207. 207.

    smintheus

    @Baud: ​
      How is SC an improvement? It never votes Dem in the general election, so what is its primary vote a proxy for? Voting how powerful politicians tell them to vote? The pretense is that this is about foregrounding minority voters, but there are plenty of far better choices with large minority populations that regularly back Democrats like MI and WI.

    I like a lot about Biden’s presidency, but this is pure corruption.

  208. 208.

    Baud

    @smintheus:

    It’s an improvement because it better represents the Dem electorate.

    It’s not corruption and the more you say it, the worse you look.

    ETA: MI and WI are bigger states. Name a small state that would be better.  I would suggest DE, but that would be viewed as corrupt also.

  209. 209.

    Another Scott

    @schrodingers_cat: Runoffs can be gamed, and were gamed for decades in the south (e.g. Georgia).  They can be a way to keep repressed minorities out of power.

    There are too many ways to game elections without more fundamental changes.

    When I’m elected benevolent despot:

    1) Redistricting will be taken away from the parties and will be guided by an independent board (unlike the new Virginia system) with clear, verifiable rules about compactness, commonality of interests, etc. Politicians should never again pick their voters.

    2) Citizens United will be struck down. No, money is not speech. There will be strict, verifiable, real-time, limits on campaign spending, and public financing will be the norm. Too much of what is bad about our politics is caused by the constant chasing of campaign dollars.

    3) Elections will run for a month, in-person voting days will be a federal and state holiday, and the number of polling places, machines, etc., will be based on population and monitored and enforced by an independent agency. If any IDs are required, they will be provided by the state for free, including providing any state-based documents (birth certificate, state ID, etc.,) for free.

    And a few other things.

    And a pony.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  211. 211.

    PaulB

    I did not see “Primaries must go!” and “This is a disastrously ugly thing Biden is doing to the Democratic brand!” on my dance card this morning, particularly in a thread that was largely about Democratic wins and Democratic unity.

    Since I’m contributing to the heat, I think it time for me to disengage. I hope everyone has a safe and happy weekend.

  212. 212.

    smintheus

    @PaulB: ​
      I could say the same thing of commenters who refuse to admit that Biden chose SC because it turned his campaign around. If he had gotten his first win in NH, he wouldn’t be doing this.

  213. 213.

    Geminid

    @JML: AMTRAK may add that Chicago-Minneapolis route before too long. It might not be “high speed,” but AMTRAK already has some routes where the speed is 160mph, which fast. Even if the Chigago-Minneapolis trains run only 80mph they would be a  useful development..

    The AMTRAK website has published plans for their next round of expansion; maybe that route is in the works.

  217. 217.

    Kay

    What I hear when people say “women vote against their own rights” (and it isn’t just SC, Democrats say this to me all the time) is “you’re not getting the coalition help because you haven’t earned it – go get YOUR LADIES to help you”

    They’re not my ladies and on no other D issue am I told to go persuade GOP voters or forget it. I don’t say this to anyone else who are allies on their issue.

  218. 218.

    schrodingers_cat

    @Kay: If we change the women’s vote by a percentage or two that would change electoral outcomes. We don’t need to convince pro-life women we need to convince women on the margins. I am not asking you to convince Republican voters.

  220. 220.

    Baud

    @smintheus:

    I wouldn’t give a rats ass if Trump changed the GOP primary schedule. Trump’s game was to cancel primaries altogether.

    ETA: this could be problematic if there were any chance Biden would face a contested primary.  There isn’t.

  221. 221.

    oldgold

    What I am for is improving the process by which we nominate candidates for office in this country. What we have is not providing optimal results. We need to do better.

    And, I admit, I do not have the perfect answer for doing so. There are ideas out there, we need to explore them.

  224. 224.

    schrodingers_cat

    @Baud: You know what what bought Modi to power in 2014. A group called India Against Corruption, the leader was an RSS acolyte and now most of the big names in that agitation are in the BJP or support the BJP.

    And they are completely mum against any BJP corruption.

  225. 225.

    Baud

    @smintheus:

    You’re the one who suggested Biden was going to lose NH Dems over this.  The straw is yours.

    And I haven’t heard a suggestion for a better small state yet.

  226. 226.

    oldgold

    @ian: Once again, I concede gerrymandering is a serious problem. And, it needs to be fixed. But, doesn’t the fact that we have this hyper-gerrymandering, make improving the process for selecting candidates more important?

  227. 227.

    oldgold

    @Baud:  Except, of course, our current political reality. Have you followed the recent proceedings in the House of Represenatives?

  228. 228.

    Kay

    @schrodingers_cat:

    Ok but just one more and then I’ll drop it (ha! Like that’s happening) – we just need to move two points. Not women. “Independent” men are a much better bet than Right leaning women.

    The predictor in this isn’t gender- it’s archaic, negative and stereotypical views on women. GOP men-  worst, GOP women, very bad, then Independent men, independent women and then liberals (best).

  231. 231.

    Bill Arnold

    @oldgold:
    That piece is a bit incoherent, with some assertions without evidence. At least the argument for ranked choice is clear. (I happen to agree about ranked choice.)
    The current primary system favors Democrats, because it is Republicans who (relative to Democrats) more often end up with un-electable or badly-performing fringe candidates due the differentially fringier/uncompromising nature of the Republican primary electorate relative to Democrats’ primary electorate [1] .Giving that advantage up will hurt Democrats electorally, which should also be a consideration.
    [1] I have not seen any social science research quantitatively justifying that RvD assertion, to be clear.

  232. 232.

    Anyway

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    I get texts from people wanting me to support Ruben Gallego.

    OMG yes. I send STOP right away but he’s very persistent. And we’re what a year away from the primaries…

  233. 233.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @smintheus: ​
      Two things. 1. Arguments why this move make sense have been proffered. You may not agree with them, but that is a different matter. 2. Trump is corrupt. Known fact. As a result, a presumption that any action he takes has a corrupt motivation is reasonable. Biden is not corrupt. As a result, that presumption is not reasonable.

  234. 234.

    ian

    @oldgold: I’m not opposed to ‘improving the process’.  If states like Alaska or California want to have their own way of doing it, that is fine with me.

    I just don’t think it is helpful to say primaries are the problem when these other factors are contributing to the ‘problem’ much more so.  Gerrymandering, partisan media consumption and the organizations that foster it, money in politics, and the sorting of the United States into two distinct ideological blocks have all had much more influence in causing extremism.  Changing primaries won’t solve these other issues.

    That being said, if you or anyone else has a suggestion as to how primaries could be better conducted, I am not opposed to changing the system.  I just think we are blaming a symptom for the underlying root cause.

  235. 235.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Anyway: I always tell myself they wouldn’t do it if it didn’t work but… who the fuck responds positively to spam texts? makes me look back longingly at the “Hey” emails from my pal Barack. Or the “Mr Puddles wants you to help him wish happy birthday do his Mom/Dad, Candidate X!”

  236. 236.

    Gvg

    @oldgold: yes. Review history of when we didn’t have primaries. It’s terrible. Machine candidates picked by the party. Caucuses can be gamed as we have seen. And most places never had them so there isn’t as much history but primaries are better.

    it’s one of those democracy things, terrible, except better than everything else we have tried.

  237. 237.

    Another Scott

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: I’m on Google Fi, and I never give out my cell number (with isolated exceptions, never to political candidates), so I don’t get many spam texts.  Thankfully.

    But I feel for candidates.  TV doesn’t have the reach it used to, and neither do newspapers.  It must be hard to get a message out to voters these days.

    But they wouldn’t have to work so hard, and annoy us so much, if they didn’t have to chase campaign dollars.  Public financing would make things better for them, and for us.

    Which is why (one reason why) the GQP will never allow it.

    Which is why we have to vote them out.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  239. 239.

    Geminid

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: I don’t get these emails but when I hear about them and their frequency I wonder if their senders get a commission. I think they should be required to say, and say how much, and candidates should require this of their vendors.

  240. 240.

    smintheus

    @Baud:

      Maryland. And you’re dreaming if you think Biden’s insulting (he didn’t even listen to what state Dems thought) treatment is not going to make it harder to keep NH in the Dem column.

    It’s hilarious to see Biden’s defenders wavering back and forth from pretending this is not payback to celebrating Biden’s willingness to do payback right.

  241. 241.

    delphinium

    @Another Scott: ​
    You have my vote, make this so : ).

    When I’m elected benevolent despot:
    1) Redistricting will be taken away from the parties and will be guided by an independent board…
    2) Citizens United will be struck down…
    3) Elections will run for a month, in-person voting days will be a federal and state holiday, and the number of polling places, machines, etc., will be based on population and monitored and enforced by an independent agency…

    And a pony

  242. 242.

    Baud

    @smintheus:

    Dude, once again, NH was gone as first because Dems have been wanting to change the primary schedule from well before Biden.  It was only a question of what state would replace it.  If you want to invent a world where Dark Brandon has it in for NH, that’s your choice.  I’m no longer going to entertain it as a serious point of discussion.

    And thanks for confirming that NH doesn’t morally deserve to be first.

  243. 243.

    Barbara

    @smintheus: ​Maryland equals DC media market. I’m hopeful that most people living in NH don’t have their identity so wrapped up in a single event that occurs once every 4 years that they would consign themselves to dystopia as payback.​

  246. 246.

    Gvg

    I look at any more to take away primaries as a move to take away some of my voting rights so I am very against such ideas.

    Gerrymandering is the real problem. Reforms should be aimed at making it difficult or impossible, nationwide. Strategically very hard because the ones in power generally got in power using such tricks and don’t want to give it up.

    Campaign finance reform is the other big problem and the reason it is a problem, and gerrymandering and civil rights are being eroded is the Supreme Court. Voters need to be taught to see how ignoring the impact of Presidents on that and the need to think long term. If we had logical Justices, we would never have gotten to this point.

  247. 247.

    Josie

    @oldgold: ​
     If you are referring to the Republican clowns in the House, I would reply that they are a direct result of gerrymandering, not primaries. The Democratic representatives, the result of primaries, are a pretty stellar group. Can you name a single Democratic representative (chosen in a primary) who is terrible?

  249. 249.

    Anyway

    @Geminid:

    I don’t get these emails

    I contributed to some candidates using ActBlue – that’s how it started. I rarely visit candidate websites or sign-up for “causes”. The fundraising model is brutal … I literally get emails or texts right after I’ve made a donation. Dem candidates need our support but this is unsustainable.

  250. 250.

    PaulB

    @smintheus: I could say the same thing of commenters who refuse to admit that Biden chose SC because it turned his campaign around

    You could, of course, but you’d be lying, so I’m not sure what the point of such a statement would be. You have zero evidence to back up your ridiculous assertions.

    Still, your apocalyptic statements about the impact of moving the first-in-the-nation primary are mildly amusing, so there is that.

  251. 251.

    Geminid

    @Anyway: I got texts from volunteers for the Democratic candite in the midterms. I wasn’t bombarded though. I wonder whether if volunteers sent fundraising emails they might be more restrained than these fundraisers. For all I know, the fundraisers are, but it sure seems profit-driven to me.

  253. 253.

    M31

    the alternate histories had other states been first could be great

    New Mexico’s vaunted first-in-the-nation primary led to amazing Hatch Chili and fry bread – fueled power plants across the nation

  254. 254.

    Subsole

    @smintheus:

    If NH wants to vote fascist because they ain’t going first, always and forever, then NH can, respectfully, get fucked.

    No one always goes first every time always and foreverever. Isn’t that kind of the entire point of this country??

    I mean, seriously!? Do these people effing hear themselves?

    “Welp, we got no choice but to just start electing gay-bashing, race-baiting, pulpit-pimping oligarchic ethnocrats to punish you uppity outsiders for usurping our sacred and divinely-ordained place in line at the national beauty pageant.”

    Grow. The fuck. Up.

    God. Dammit.

  255. 255.

    James E Powell

    @Baud:

    A lot of people want the first state to be a small one.

    The media look for a high diner per capita ratio.

  257. 257.

    trollhattan

    @Baud: ​Anyone who asks my NH brother if he wishes the state remains first among primaries will get the answer he’s been giving for decades: “no, please make it go away.” Safe bet most of them feel the same.

  259. 259.

    Subsole

    @Subsole:

    I mean, if we have to argue – and we do, we are Democrats – can we please argue over matters of substance? Or at least something not so devastatingly petty?

  261. 261.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Subsole: ​
      The Ireland-Wales rugby match is rather boring and I am not ready to go do the little bit of shopping I need to do, so what else is there?

  263. 263.

    James E Powell

    @smintheus:

    It’s payback both to SC and to NH for the way they voted last time.

    I disagree. A movement – or at least a widely expressed desire – to change the Iowa to New Hampshire one-two punch has been gaining ground for a long time. For us Democrats in particular, those two states do not seem to reflect who we are or what issues matter most to us.

  265. 265.

    Josie

    @oldgold: ​
     Granted he is not squeaky clean, but in comparison to Jordan and Green et al, I do not find him “terrible.” I think you are well aware that making primaries the cause of all that ails the system is pretty silly. I still maintain that gerrymandering is the main problem, but I can tell you are just not ever going to admit to being wrong, so you do you.

  266. 266.

    James E Powell

    @Another Scott:

    Redistricting will be taken away from the parties and will be guided by an independent board

    Sounds great. Question is, how do you find people who know anything about politics who are also “independent” enough to serve on this board?

  268. 268.

    M31

    oh so NOW we’re shooting down the balloon when it’s over SC? more Biden favoritism and blatant payback

  273. 273.

    sab

    @Anyway: I wore out the clear button on my cellphone and had to get a new one, thereby losing all my photos. Not happy at all to get more campaign texts after the election.

  274. 274.

    kalakal

    @Subsole: Depends. I’ve played enough boring rugby games. It can be a great game or it can degenerate into a reenactment of the Somme ( without the guns) , lots of people floundering around in the mud in one huge loose ruck. When it’s good it’s great. Also depends wether Union or League. League tends to be more dynamic as there are fewer players

  275. 275.

    oldgold

    @Josie: What are you talking about? I never said or even implied that the primary system is the “cause of all that ails our system..”

    I have repeatedly stated gerrymandering is a serious problem.

    Our problems are not the result of any one thing. Here is a list  of things that in my opinion, other than our current primary system, are causing our political system to under perform : money ( Citizens United), racism, FOX, a feckless main stream media, gerrymandering, voting repression, and the bad faith/rancid GOP.

  276. 276.

    Subsole

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Booooo!

    No fights? What the hell kind of game is that?

     

    More seriously, I am agitated not so much at arguing over the order, so much as the childishness of “losing NH” over it.

    I can see the logic of the arguments laid out for this state or that one, but when I resort to tantrums and threatening to hand you over to Nazis unless I get my way, I don’t expect to be entertained.

  279. 279.

    Mike in NC

    @M31:  A neighbor called my wife a short time ago to claim that the infamous Chinese spy balloon is now over North Carolina. We stepped outside for laughs and only saw the contrails from 3 or 4 aircraft visible. This is the thing that apparently Republicans are clamoring — like a bunch of 10 year olds — to shoot down.

  287. 287.

    lowtechcyclist

    @UncleEbeneezer:

    I’ve seen the argument that SC is a smaller/cheaper tv market (than Atlanta), so that’s better for candidates with less $.  But it seems like the states are so close that it’s essentially the same market.

    Someone else may have already replied to this, but just in case: no, they’re not the same market.  The main population centers – Columbia, Charleston, Greenville-Spartanburg – are well away from any GA media markets.  Atlanta specifically is about 90 miles from the state line, and about 130 from Greenville, the nearest of SC’s major* cities.

    *’major’ on the scale of South Carolina, that is.  None of them is fixing to be a megalopolis anytime soon.

  292. 292.

    RaflW

    Now that the balloon of abject terror and fascination been shot down, what will be the new Fox/GOP talking point about what a wimp Biden be?

    I don’t actually want to know. Only asking because of course taking the sane route of waiting till it’s over water but in a shallow location where recovery by Navy divers shouldn’t be too fraught cannot be credited to the Commander in Chief. Not by the bad-faith industrial complex.

  295. 295.

    Suzanne

    The balloon must have been booking it…..it was over Montana a couple of days ago.

    I hope it was an awesome explosion.

  302. 302.

    trollhattan

    @Suzanne: ​Sadly, it was no Hindenburg.

    I remember when we decided to sell off our Strategic Helium Reserve to Big Birthday. Genius move.

  306. 306.

    Dorothy A. Winsor

    @RaflW: I walked past a TV  with Fox on it on my way to get my mail, and someone was talking about how Biden should have shot it down over Montana because then we’d have been able to salvage more. So…just what you’d expect

  307. 307.

    Geminid

    @Baud: They had to protect the Miniature Golf Industrial complex.

    I wonder if someone will sell balloon related souvenir T-shirts at Myrtle Beach this summer. That thing’s famous now.

  308. 308.

    lowtechcyclist

    @Geminid:

    They shot the balloon down not too far off of Myrtle Beach, South Carolina.

    Obviously to help Biden win the SC primary next year. – The Castle

  309. 309.

    M31

    it was just following its homing beacon leading it back to Hunter Biden’s laptop and Biden shot it down, COVERUP

  310. 310.

    lowtechcyclist

    @Geminid:

    I wonder if someone will sell balloon related souvenir T-shirts at Myrtle Beach this summer. That thing’s famous now.

    I want a t-shirt with a pic of the balloon and the caption “that’s no moon”

  313. 313.

    🐾BillinGlendaleCA

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: One of my managers at the Home of the Orange Apron calls me “Wildfire”.

    The backstory…

    One day walking though plumbing, the manager was going though the bay very frustrated about shit being in the wrong place, Donna Summer’s ‘MacArthur Park’ was playing on the PA.

    He says I hate the song,

    I say: Could be worse

    He says: What?

    I say: ‘Wonderful Christmastime’

    He snaps: it’s not Christmas yet.

    I say: OK, Wildfire(it was on the playlist).

    I walk on, later the same day I’m passing him in front of the cash registers and ‘Wildfire’ is playing on the PA, I just say Wildfire.

    That evening as I was leaving for the day, he’s at the door and says “Goodnight Wildfire”.

    So he’s called me Wildfire since then, including one time he paged me over the PA, “Wildfire, dial 500”, when I called him, he said, I didn’t page you as Wildfire did I?  Ah, yes you did.

  315. 315.

    Kathleen

    @Nelle: He demonstrates what “emotional intelligence” and self awareness look like. IMHO that is one of his greatest strengths (I always thought Obama possessed those qualities as well).

  316. 316.

    cmorenc

    @Phylllis: just like OJ walked, in substantial cause from sloppy mistakes by LAPD.  OTOH the jury pool might not be as favorably susceptible to defense arguments as OJ was – small-town S.C. Is likely not as susceptibly inclined toward skepticism toward police as a jury comprised in significant part of urban LA black folk.

  317. 317.

    Bill Arnold

    @oldgold:
    Poked a bit, and a CREW press release calling Gregory Meeks one of the most corrupt members of congress disappeared between August and November 2020.
    https://web.archive.org/web/20200801000000*/https://www.citizensforethics.org/press-release/gregory-meeks-named-most-corrupt-member-of-congress/
    Or maybe it was moved, but a site search does not find it and neither does google.
    The full report pdf can still be found on amazon aws
    Some of the material in that pdf is interesting, but much of it says more about the CREW investigator(s), IMO. I mean, they make hay out of him paying 17 percent less for a house than an independent appraisal said it was worth, and that would not even raise an eyebrow in Republican-land. (I personally had to sell a house (executor of parent’s estate) 20 percent below appraisal in 2020. )

  318. 318.

    Sally

    @suzanne: I do so agree with your sentiments here.  People should vote (while they’re still allowed to).  They shouldn’t have to be asked, bribed, or begged.  Just vote!

  319. 319.

    smintheus

    @Baud:

      I’m inherently suspicious when people argue by means of straw men, and you have done that over and over again in this thread. Neither did I say that NH morally deserves to go first, nor that NH should go first…nor did I argue any of the other nonsense that similar commenters on this thread have tossed around.

    I said that Biden behaved insultingly towards NH Dems (true); there’s a real risk of electoral damage (undeniable if you know NH politics); that it’s payback to SC and Clyburn (widely shared view even among Biden’s defenders); that there’s no logical and democratically defensible reason for promoting SC as opposed to any of several other states if the goal were simply to foreground a state with a large minority population (lots of incoherent babble and hand-waving on this thread trying to prove that SC is the only logical state to choose); and that by contrast there is a logic based upon history for keeping NH in first position (indisputable, hence all the vituperation and accusations of malice etc. directed against me by some of the usual BJ suspects). And I pointed out that if reform were needed, there are also other logical approaches to identifying which state should go first but none of those approaches would lead anybody to choosing SC (a point that has been ignored by the Dem-praetorian-guard cadre of BJ, for obvious reasons).

    The upshot is that the “reform” is every bit as arbitrary and self-serving as the decision 45+ years ago to allow Iowa to jump the queue. At the time, Dems rationalized that they really needed some of that ‘heartland’ authenticity so they could ignore all the compelling reasons for refusing to let it happen. It was a dumb move and with no apparent logic behind it, and this is even dumber while no more logical.

    A lot of people on this thread have decided to convince themselves that NH voters won’t ever notice that there’s no logical reason for pushing SC in front. Good luck with that bet.

  320. 320.

    Geminid

    This was a failed attempt to link to an interview. I left out a letter.

    Since I am on this contentious thread I will point out that Greg Meeks is an odd example to use when complaining about primaries producing extreme nominees. Mr. Meeks is often criticized, but typically for not being far enough “left.”

  322. 322.

    PaulB

    @smintheus: I said that Biden behaved insultingly towards NH Dems (true)

    Actually, that’s an opinion, and it’s not backed up by anything resembling actual data, so it is, in fact, false.

    there’s a real risk of electoral damage

    Not really, nor have you presented any evidence that there is.

    that it’s payback to SC and Clyburn

    Nor have you presented any evidence to support this.

    that there’s no logical and democratically defensible reason for promoting SC as opposed to any of several other states if the goal were simply to foreground a state with a large minority population

    That is not the goal, nor has it ever been stated as the goal, and you have ignored the many reasons presented in this thread and in easy Google searches as to why South Carolina was a good choice. Your refusal to engage, your ignorance, is not our problem.

    (lots of incoherent babble and hand-waving on this thread

    Oh, the irony….

    and that by contrast there is a logic based upon history for keeping NH in first position (indisputable, hence all the vituperation and accusations of malice etc. directed against me

    ROFL…. You really have learned nothing, have you? There is no “logic” there. That it should be first because it was first is not “logic.” It’s circular reasoning.

    Let me spell it out for you (not that it will do any good), given your willful ignorance. That Iowa and New Hampshire would, and should, lose their first-in-the-nation status has been a hot topic for literally decades. It was inevitable that it would happen.

    That South Carolina  has been among the top 5 choices for replacement has also been true for nearly that same amount of time, for a variety of reasons that I will not reiterate here, since you’re not listening and prefer to play silly games instead.

    Both of these facts predate Biden’s tenure as President. Both of these would have happened regardless of whether Biden was President. That you prefer to ignore and remain ignorant of these facts is amusing.

    A lot of people on this thread have decided to convince themselves that NH voters won’t ever notice that there’s no logical reason for pushing SC in front. Good luck with that bet.

    Since the first half of that sentence is a deliberate lie, I’ll take the bet in the second half. It’s funny how childish you think the New Hampshire voters are, and how exaggerated you think the importance of those childish voters is.

  323. 323.

    Subsole

    @smintheus: To be clear:

    Those are fair arguments to make, and can (and are) being debated logically.

    Again, where I draw the line is if NH starts electing fascists over this, as has been intimated they might. That is not state pride. It is being a childish, petulant ass because you cannot bear not going first.

    I mean, I live in a state that literally gives minority neighborhoods of tens of thousands one (01.00) polling place. And you’re angry you don’t vote before everyone? Man, there are SWATHES of this nation who struggle to vote at all.

    A lot of them, like our trans friends, are gonna struggle just to exist if the GOP takes over again, and NH voters are threatening to let that happen because of some court-protocol drama about who leads the ceremonial procession?? Get some perspective, folks.

    Feel insulted? Fine. Hell, be insulted. And then do what ever other Democrat does every day: get over it and get back to work. Because we are all depending on each other.

    Feels like you got muscled aside? You did. And that sucks. Welcome to life for every single Democrat living south of the Mason-Dixon. And every single one west of the Mississippi, for that matter.

    I get very angry about this, probably unreasonably so, because I see how it ends. Right now people in my state are freezing to death and scavenging food during winter because we let the GOP run the power grid. Y’all are threatening to let Abbott take his little show national over voting order? Does that not seem…I dunno, a bit selfish?

    This is all I am trying to say: argue over the better choice all you want, but leave off that threat to bounce if it doesn’t go your way. Especially in a room full of people who lived through 4 years of Trump and are facing the very real possibility of another four if the line doesn’t hold.

    That will get you vitriol.

  324. 324.

    Kay

    Maggie Haberman
    @maggieNYT
    3h
    NEW: The Koch network is planning to get involved in primaries and hoping to unite behind one who can “turn the page” on the past, an indirect reference to Trump

    Any day now the fever will break and the REAL conservatives will take charge. Guffaw. Hope springs eternal at the NYTimes political desk.
    They’ve been behaving like insane people since the MOMENT Obama appeared, but sure, it’s “Trump”.
    They’ve all memory holed the Tea Party which was also a fucking disaster at governance.
    “Bring back the reasonable conservatives! The people with the snake flag who obsessed over a birth certificate for 4 years”

  325. 325.

    smintheus

    @PaulB: ​
      In other words, you got nothing except the usual BJ “clap louder”. Plus naturally your stock in trade, the inane personal abuse.

  326. 326.

    smintheus

    @Subsole: ​
      I’m not threatening to abandon the party. It’s Biden who behaved selfishly by promoting a bizarrely improbable choice, a hyper-Christian conservative non-D voting state that not coincidentally saved his candidacy. And he did this in a way almost calculated to provoke NH Dems as much as possible. Republicans thrive by stoking public anger, and Biden handed them a new megaphone in a state we need to win. And the Tinkerbell fan club at BJ thinks the way around this is to denounce anybody who notices the colossal screw up.

  327. 327.

    PaulB

    @smintheus: In other words, you got nothing

    LOL…. And, again, the irony.  Thank you for confirming that, in your own words, “you got nothing.” You have no answer for any of the points I raised, and have nothing but your usual “stock in trade.”

    Feel free to come back when you want your ass handed to you again. Nobody here will be holding their breaths.

  328. 328.

    PaulB

    @smintheus: It’s Biden who behaved selfishly by promoting a bizarrely improbable choice,

    You can say this all you want, but you have never provided even one shred of evidence to back it up. It remains a lie, and a rather silly and obvious one at that.

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