Bibi is trying to make himself above the law by stacking the supreme court. People started protesting, saying “we didn’t vote to make you king.” Defense minister said, “hey, maybe we ought to slow down and not do this.” Bibi said – “How dare you speak out against my policy. You’re fired.” Israelis said, “hey, you can’t do that and we still don’t want this law. We’re not going on military drills, not working at ports and airports, not studying in our university, etc., until you back down.”
Supposedly, this morning Bibi has backed down (but nobody sensible trusts him). Apparently the RWNJs are now claiming credit, because obviously the RWNJs are the only parties with agency there….
Bibi is trying to make himself above the law by stacking the supreme court.
As I understood it, it’s more “make himself above the law by enabling his legislative coalition to override supreme court decisions he doesn’t like”. Same basic outcome though.
5.
jonas
I think this whole thing is also turning out to be a reckoning of sorts between secular Israeli society — you know, the people who work, pay taxes, serve in the military, etc. — and the massive Heredi (ultra-orthodox) communities who (or whose parties) back Netanyahu and mostly live on welfare, attend only private religious schools, and don’t serve in the military. Carving out an exemption for religious scholars may have made some sense at Israel’s founding when such people formed a minute demographic and were seen as essential to preserving what was left of rabbinical scholarship — but they’re something like 1/6 of the population now and growing rapidly because they tend to have large families.
6.
Joey Maloney
Shorter: shit’s blowing up.
Slightly longer: Bibi has finally bit off more than he can chew.
Slightly longer still: Bibi came back to power in a coalition of, literally, convicted terrorists and other criminals, Zionist fanatics, and ultra-religious crooks. They immediately put forward legislation to remove the only real check on their power, the judiciary especially the Supreme Court. And then, emboldened, the nuttiest members of his coalition vomited forth a deluge of insane right-wing legislation – a lot of it blatantly self-dealing – that would make Marjorie Taylor-Green blush. This got the attention of the Israeli public beyond the normal disorganized-and-dispirited leftist circular firing squad, and kicked off a series of demonstrations. But Bibi’s party has an absolute (if bare) majority in the Knesset and they refused to make even token gestures to slowing their roll. Demonstrations got larger and larger. A couple of weeks ago a movement started amongst military reservists – who unlike in the US, often volunteer to assist and are essential to the army’s operations – to refuse to serve. Demonstrations continued to grow all over the country. In Tel Aviv the Ayalon expressway, the main artery through town, was getting blocked for hours at a time. In Jerusalem they surrounded the PM’s residence.
Last week some time, the Defense Minister (who is, remember, a member Bibi’s party) went to him privately and said, you have to at least pause the legislation. Bibi told him to get bent. So yesterday the Defense Minister made a nationwide address where he said the push to pass these laws was affecting military readiness and endangering the nation. Bibi fired him. Then, kaboom.
Today the Histradut, the most powerful labor union, declared a general strike. The airport is closed. Schools are closed. Government offices are closed. Members of Bibi’s party, sensing that the ship is sinking, are deserting. Even though the party whip has publicly said anyone who goes against the party line is finished in Likud, it looks like there may no longer be a majority.
But never say never. Bibi has managed to wheel-and-deal himself out of trouble uncounted times up until now (and usually knifed his partners in the back as soon as the danger was past). Will he manage it one final time to make his coalition the permanent majority and end democracy? Stay tuned.
And of course meanwhile the Palestinians are saying, “Democracy? What democracy?” Last month we had an honest-to-ghu pogrom when a mob of Jewish settler youth attacked a West Bank town, set houses on fire, vandalized cars, attacked residents at random, while the army protected them. Protected the attackers, not the victims.
In the United States, if a small majority of the House of Representatives aimed to pass legislation to curtail minority rights, the bill would still have to pass the Senate (with its filibuster), the presidential veto, and federal courts. Each of these institutions answers to different constraints and constituencies. They all operate under a defined Bill of Rights that is extremely hard to change. Many legal matters are also within the purview of the states, not the federal government. Abuse of minority rights still happens, but it requires the consent of many different institutions and constituencies.
In Israel, if a small majority of the sole chamber of the legislature, 61 of the 120-member Knesset, supported a bill to curtail individual or minority rights, it would face precisely one formal constraint: the Supreme Court, acting as a “High Court of Justice.” This is what the Netanyahu-Levin legislation would effectively abolish.
The Netanyahu coalition is proposing that only a unanimous decision of all 15 justices could strike down legislation. It is also proposing to politicize the process of judicial appointments, making unanimous decisions against a coalition even more remote a possibility. Most dramatically, if the court struck down legislation, a bare majority of 61 could simply override judicial review. The proposals would also downgrade legal advisors in the Israeli government from interpreters of the law at present to mere political advisers.
In short, in Netanyahu’s new Israel, the slimmest of majorities could decide anything. Pure, unbridled majoritarianism.
“It’s a dessert and a floor polish!”
:-/
Thanks.
Cheers,
Scott.
8.
Jay C
Last I read, amid the chaos (which is shaping up to be something thing like a general strike, or near to it), Netanyahu announced he was going to put his judicial “reform” program on hold. Which, of course, the opposition is placing zero faith in…
9.
Anonymous At Work
@dmsilev: More accurate summary, worse outcome. In order to reattain the position of Leader of his coalition, he had to include openly-racist religious zealots and fascists who will force Palestinians out of Gaza and West Bank with tanks, if allowed. There was already rioting started by Israelis in Gaza because, and this is my reading, so correct me, but basically “looking funny at Israelis” or some other contrivance.
10.
Ohio Mom
@jonas: I try my best not to pay attention to Israel, which as an American Jew, isn’t always easy. I describe my position as analogous to someone with an active addict in the family. I’ve detached, when they have achieved a track record of sobriety, maybe get back to me then.
That said, I think there are two other dynamics to note, in addition to the increase in the number of haredi.
One is all the Russians who emigrated once they could leave and chose Israel on the basis they could claim a Jewish maternal ancestor. They brought their dysfunctional culture with them. I don’t think they fully get democracy and the rule of law.
The other is the brain drain. A good number of educated, skilled and liberal Jews have decamped for other places.
That said, I am thrilled to see that plenty of Israelis remain who have a bottom line. Good luck to them, I am pulling for them.
they’re something like 1/6 of the population now and growing rapidly because they tend to have large families.
Which might have something to do with them receiving massive subsidies from the rest of Israeli society. When you subsidize something, you tend to get more of it, and that apparently includes religious fanatics.
If you’ll pardon a naive question, why is Likud so attached to Netanyahu? Does he have a cult of personality? I’ve read that there are right-wing parties happy to join a coalition with Likud, provided Likud ditched Bibi. Then Likud wouldn’t need the fringe parties.
@Anonymous At Work: Sounds bit like the equivalent of driving while black. Or maybe even like the black man a few years ago who was stopped while riding his bike because some cop didn’t like the look on his face.
But then it turned much more than that.
17.
Geminid
@Ohio Mom: I do not know that much about the politics of first and second generation Russian immigrants in Israel. But it’s worth noting that the popular base of opposition party Yisrael Beitenyahu (with 5 MKs), is primarily secular Russian immigrants. They oppose the influence of Netanyahu’s ultra-Orthodox coalition partners.
Also, party leader Avigdor Lieberman has a personal problem with Netanyahu: basically, Lieberman hates Netanyahu’s guts.
@Ohio Mom: thanks for your insight on this subject — I always appreciate it.
20.
Geminid
National security and foreign affairs writer Laura Rozen is covering these events on her Twitter feed. She is mainly linking to Israeli sources. Rozen is a good resource on general; I found her through Cheryl Rofer.
The Times of Israel and the Jerusalem Post are also good sources for Israeli politics.
@Elizabelle: Proud of the Israelis for protesting. I wish we in the USA did more of this.
The US has upgraded to cyber-protesting. Now we can protest from the comfort of our own home.
This approach has many advantages; no societal disruption, your message doesn’t have to face the challenge of contact with someone who doesn’t already agree, and leaders can ignore the protest far more efficiently.
Just think of Balloon Juice as an ongoing 20 some-odd year protest.
24.
Betty Cracker
@Joey Maloney: Thanks so much for this summary! I don’t understand Israeli politics at all and have been especially mystified by Netanyahu’s iron grip.
But never say never. Bibi has managed to wheel-and-deal himself out of trouble uncounted times up until now (and usually knifed his partners in the back as soon as the danger was past). Will he manage it one final time to make his coalition the permanent majority and end democracy? Stay tuned.
Damn. Wishing strength, resolve and courage to the protestors who are trying to save their democracy.
@Ohio Mom: Some of them came to America instead: my brother is married to the daughter of such a couple.
They don’t get democracy, they think law is something you buy, and they don’t understand money or debt at all. They’ve been here over forty years. They don’t get it and they don’t even want to try. They are not stupid people by any stretch, BTW. They just refuse to accept that they could be liable or suffer consequences for anything.
I’ve known them for over 30 years now. These were the best and the brightest that the USSR had; I no longer ask “why did the USSR fail”, but simply “how did it take so long?”
America seems hellbent to follow. The right, with their new post-Trump “zero-consequences for whites” culture, is showing the way.
27.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@lowtechcyclist: There were some rather big protests across the U.S. three summers ago after George Floyd got murdered by the cops.
Needs moar protesters. I know many, many people who were broadly supportive of those protests; myself included; who sat out. Shit needs to grind to a halt over police violence against minorities, unsafe workplaces for women, or take your pick.
Eta: Of course look for not grinding shit to a halt solutions too. But talk about a protest with most people, the response will be “I can’t miss work.” Even if you’re talking a work strike.
28.
Geminid
@lowtechcyclist: Yes, those protests were big. But this is a nation of over 330 mllion people, and Israel’s population is a little under 10 million. The appearance of over 200,000 protesters in Israel’s streets is unprecedented; a comparable number for this country would be over 6.5 million.
If Netanyahu has lost control, it’s because the maelstrom he has unleashed is about much more than him. To come to power, he mainstreamed extremist far-right settler factions and brought them into the heart of his coalition. He has also leaned heavily on the support of ultra-Orthodox parties, which see the proposed judicial reforms as a key vehicle to push their religious project on broader Israeli society. He gave momentum to a hard right, illiberal agenda that has been gaining traction for years.
The mass protests in Tel Aviv and other cities, often attended by more well-heeled and secular Israelis, are in part a reflection of a profound ideological divide within the country. The government’s legislative plans are “breaking the very delicate balance between mainstream Israel and the ultra-Orthodox who understood that they depend on a liberal, prosperous society with a strong military,” Yofi Tirosh, a vice dean of law at Tel Aviv University, told my colleague Shira Rubin.
But some analysts on the Israeli left point to an even deeper set of forces at play. Millions of Palestinians live under de facto Israeli military control, shorn of many of the same rights afforded to their Israeli neighbors. Their mere existence casts into shadow any substantive debates over what Israeli democracy stands for, especially when you consider how Belazel Smotrich — a far-right settler leader turned leading member of Netanyahu’s cabinet with civilian administrative powers over the occupied West Bank — recently publicly declared that Palestinians as a people don’t actually exist.
And there is no coincidence that Palestinian lands and political aspirations are among the first things in the crosshairs of Netanyahu and his far-right allies as they unfurl their legislative plans.
“While protesters — many of them among the most privileged in Israeli society — walk in the streets demanding the ‘rule of law’ and ‘democracy,’ Israeli forces are demolishing Palestinian homes; standing alongside settlers who are terrorizing Palestinians; denying freedom of movement and assembly; holding people in prolonged detention without trial; killing unarmed protesters; carrying out torture; and deporting Palestinian activists,” wrote American Israeli journalist Mairav Zonszein. “And within Israel, Palestinian citizens face structural discrimination and inequality under an explicit policy that prioritizes Jewish rights.”
Gershon Baskin, an Israeli peace activist, recently marched in the anti-government protests with a sign that read, “There is no democracy with occupation.”
“No honest Israeli can claim that the military control over millions of Palestinians, without the most basic civil, human and political rights, can really be called a democracy,” Baskin wrote in an op-ed in the Jerusalem Post.
“While so many Israelis have finally awakened to the distortions of our democracy and the threats to all of us,” he added, “perhaps they will now also wake up to the need to confront the central core of our existence as a modern liberal society in which there must be full equality for all of those who live under the same regime.”
@The Moar You Know: I don’t remember you being so negative about the prospects of America until the past year or so. I am wondering if something changed for you in that time?
34.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@lowtechcyclist: Who do you think claimed the remains of the space needle, now deformed by heat?
BERLIN/FRANKFURT, March 27 (Reuters) – Airports and bus and train stations across Germany were at a standstill on Monday, causing disruption for millions at the start of the working week during one of the largest walkouts in decades as Europe’s biggest economy reels from inflation.
The 24-hour “warning” strikes called by the Verdi trade union and railway and transport union EVG were the latest in months of industrial action which has hit major European economies as higher food and energy prices dent living standards.
They kicked off three days of wage talks which could lead to further strikes if they fail to yield a compromise. Employers have offered 5% more wages over a period of 27 months and a one-off payment of 2,500 euros – proposals unions, which are calling for double digit hikes, call unacceptable amid soaring inflation which reached 9.3% in February.
Germany, which was heavily dependent on Russia for gas before the war in Ukraine, has been particularly hard hit by higher prices as it scrambled for new energy sources, with inflation rates exceeding the euro-area average in recent months.
Worsening chronic labour shortages give unions a strong negotiating hand, economists say. The walkout is the biggest in the consensus-oriented country with a long history of collective wage bargaining since 1992, according to Verdi.
“Employees are fed up with being fobbed off with warm words while work conditions get ever worse and there are many vacant posts,” Verdi Chief Frank Werneke told reporters.
Yes, those protests were big. But this is a nation of over 330 mllion people, and Israel’s population is a little under 10 million. The appearance of over 200,000 protesters in Israel’s streets is unprecedented; a comparable number for this country would be over 6.5 million.
Polls in the summer of 2020 estimated that between 15 million and 26 million people had participated at some point in the demonstrations in the United States, making the protests the largest in U.S. history.[25][26][27]
The Women’s March of January 21, 2017 wasn’t quite that big, but then it was just a one-day thing. Wikipedia again:
Between 3,267,134 and 5,246,670 people participated in the marches in the U.S.,[26] approximately 1.0 to 1.6 percent of the U.S. population.
And keep in mind that the Israelis are protesting a specific imminent action that would mean the end of their democracy. To the extent we’ve experienced a moment like that, it was over before we had a chance to protest
ETA: I think this went into moderation because of the links inside the Wikipedia quotes, which I’m sure gave me too many links in one comment. I’ve de-linked those, so I should be down to two links now.
I don’t think you can do the kind of straight number-to-number comparison you’re doing. The US is a much bigger and more diffuse country than Israel. Everyone in Israel is within easy traveling distance of the capital, so it’s practical to have a single massive national protest. You just can’t do the same thing in the USA. Much as people here in California might like to protest on the national mall in DC, it just isn’t possible the same way the equivalent is in Israel. The bigger and more diffuse a country is, the smaller a big national protest will be relative to the whole population.
39.
Matt McIrvin
@WaterGirl: I said in another thread that if we abandon our basic commitments to freedom and justice and fairness, we’re just a gang.
The flip side of that is a worry: what if we need to be a gang to survive? What if things are so far gone that it’s really us or them? What if the only brake on their eliminationism is an eliminationism of our own?
I worry about that a lot.
I guess that in some ways, things were worse when I was young and they really did have a majority–the right often said stirring things in defense of democracy because they knew that with democracy, they would usually win.
They’re even starting to notice that that’s not true any more; I don’t hear “that’s why you libs always lose elections” as often as I used to. Instead, it’s griping about voter fraud and declarations that they’d prefer a strong tyrant to a wimpy democracy.
@WaterGirl: for me personally? Not at all. But my wife is a teacher, and I see what’s coming down the pike with this new bunch of kids and how their parents are choosing to deal (or, usually, not deal) with the problems these kids are presenting with, and I’ve got no good news for anybody on that front.
41.
Anonymous At Work
@WaterGirl: Not quite as bad as Tulsa Massacre but similar in some ways as Israeli settlers were looking for an excuse to riot and then have the Israeli Army come in and attack the Palestinians for defending themselves against rioters.
Always extra fun being a liberal American Jew when Israel decides to get extra stupid. Sigh.
43.
Omnes Omnibus
@Matt McIrvin: We are supposed to be the good guys. That doesn’t preclude fighting and fighting hard. Perhaps we could give that a shot before we worry about needing to become monsters?
@WaterGirl: Like it or not, this and the last few Israeli governments have tried to manage the Palestinian question, not solve it. So these protests are not about the rights of Palestinians in the West Bank or Gaza per se. But at least for the West Bank Palestinians who live under Israel’s control, the composition of Israel’s Supreme Court is a critical factor in their lives.
Israel’s own Arab citizens will be more directly affected by this struggle. They number almost 2 million people, close to 20% of Israel’s population. The two Arab parties number just 11 though, under 10% of the Knesset. Some vote for the “Zionist” parties but overall participation is lower than the national average. My guess is that this is because of cynicism, apathy and on the part of some, a refusal to acknowledge Israel’s legitimacy.
46.
CliosFanBoy
@Alison Rose: One of my Jewish colleagues was telling me how frustrated she gets when right-wingers on the Jewish discussion board she reads repeat the Soros conspiracy nonsense. She says they’re not even bothered when she points out the anti-Soros nonsense was started by literal European NAZIs re-using old anti-Semetic smears. I reminded her that there were literal NAZI Jews in Germany who thought the NAZIs would only go after the “bad Jews.” That delusion was quickly snuffed out.
47.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@Omnes Omnibus: Personally, I’m more optimistic about the direction of the country than I have been in my entire adult life.
Democrats are more on the same page than I’ve ever seen, Republicans are frenzied. Social and economic justice ideas are gaining purchase, hence the Republican frenzy.
On a more personal note, I’m on track to have money to save, like in a bank, for the first time in 20 years. Let’s go Brandon, completely unironically.
@CliosFanBoy: Nah, that’s a replacement. I have the original. It was a bitch to haul across the country.
48.
jonas
@Anonymous At Work: Gaza is fully in Palestinian (Hamas) hands (though its autonomy is highly restricted by Israel). Jewish settlers were evacuated from there years ago. Israel still occupies most of the West Bank, however, which a lot of these Haredi groups want to basically annex and, if they had their druthers, simply ethnically cleanse of all Palestinians and Arabs. Netanyahu has realized he can maintain the support of the ultra-orthodox parties and a slim hold on power by entertaining this scheme. His bigger agenda, however, is making himself and his cronies completely legally unaccountable for the massive corruption he has engaged in over the years. Supporting ultra-orthodox fever dreams of an Arabenrein West Bank is just a means to an end.
Thank you for the summary. Just to add, the Israeli equivalent of the Proud Boys have called on their members to go and attack the demonstrators tonight, so things may get a bit ugly.
50.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@jonas: His bigger agenda, however, is making himself and his cronies completely legally unaccountable for the massive corruption he has engaged in over the years. Supporting ultra-orthodox fever dreams of an Arabenrein West Bank is just a means to an end.
Plus ça change, it’s all the same shit.
51.
Joey Maloney
I work in the building pictured behind all the protesters.
@jonas: I can never remember Gaza vs. West Strip as far as which one is being starved into oblivion vs. bulldozed away. But end-result is the same. Grifters and racist zealots combining to play on people’s fears and destroy a democracy.
But Brutus is an honorable man…
54.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@Anonymous At Work: Grifters and racist zealots combining to play on people’s fears and destroy a democracy.
I said in another thread that if we abandon our basic commitments to freedom and justice and fairness, we’re just a gang.
The flip side of that is a worry: what if we need to be a gang to survive? What if things are so far gone that it’s really us or them? What if the only brake on their eliminationism is an eliminationism of our own?
The way I’d put it is: is it reasonable to expect a democratic society to put up indefinitely with a very large minority that’s actively hostile to democracy? To what extent is it necessary, in order to be true to our democratic ideals, to give them a seemingly unlimited number of opportunities to use democratic means to turn us into an authoritarian state?
It feels like our democracy is being forced to play Russian roulette repeatedly. It didn’t used to be that if the other party won, we’d think that might be the end of our democracy. But it is that way now. What do we do about that?
56.
Geminid
@Roger Moore: Well, I did make that straight line comparison. I did not intend that it express the whole story, but I thought it worth pointing out a difference in scale between the George Floyd demonstrations and these.
And these demonstrations are not concentrated in the capital of Jerusalem. They are nationwide; the ones in Tel Aviv are the largest, until recently larger than Jerusalem’s, but they occur in other cities as well. Even Bedouins in the Negev Desert are joining in.
57.
raven
Spring, 1968
58.
Matt McIrvin
@CliosFanBoy: The right in Israel doesn’t particularly care whether antisemitic fascists take power far away in America, if it gets them what they want. It might help them inasmuch as one of the big antisemitic tropes here is to despise liberal diaspora Jews but regard the Israeli right as the good kind of Jews.
@raven: I was going to bring up 2003 anti-war protests, but you win. Anti-war protests during Vietnam were absolutely massive (so I hear from my elders).
60.
Geminid
@jonas: Egypt also restricts Gaza’s autonomy, often in coordination with Israel. They share a border with Gaza and control access for people and trade.
That’s not an encomium that even his allies will offer about Bibi.
62.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@Joey Maloney: An enconium for teaching me a new word; uh, thanks, that was great.
63.
Matt McIrvin
@lowtechcyclist: We had a large number of proudly antidemocratic, illiberal polities in the American South in the 20th century, in blatant violation of Constitutional guarantees. It took a very long time to deal with that but people did. (And now a lot of the resulting protections are being dismantled.)
That’s probably the model for us, since it’s 100% American and involves a lot of the same groups even in the same places. And, yes, through that whole period there was active debate about whether and how much violence was necessary, how hard you need to turn the screws on a society that’s eliminated democratic means of reform, etc
ETA: “nonviolent” of course doesn’t mean “nobody gets killed”–often the tactic was precisely to sacrifice members of your own side to murder by your opponents, which is brutal in itself.
64.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@Matt McIrvin: That’s probably the model for us, since it’s 100% American and involves a lot of the same groups even in the same places.
Republicans’ sole focus since at least GWB has been rebranding the same shit. A tactic long known to somehow -ascendant coalition members, the lost causers.
Sanctity of marriage no working anymore? It’s about groomers. Can’t call minorities and immigrants thugs and criminals? Rail against the woke agenda.
The Far Right in the Israeli government, looking to neuter the Courts – they have often softened or blocked attempts to annex the whole West Bank and Gaza – along with Netanyahu who’s looking to block the courts from punishing him in his ongoing bribery trial (!!!) are trying to pass laws making it easier for the Knesset to overrule court decisions and negate other actions those courts could take. Without a Constitution creating checks and balances, this would skew all power to the Knesset and to the Prime Minister (which is currently Netanyahu who came back to power last December with an extremist Far Right coalition).
Thing is, the people are aware that this is a dictatorial power grab by Bibi. The military is losing reservists who are resigning in great numbers or refusing to serve if called up. The coalition is facing defections from a small number of ministers who realize this is a step too far, although Netanyahu already survived a recent no-confidence vote.
This is not going to end cleanly.
66.
sab
@pajaro: The Israeli Right has always been scary. They murdered a Prime Minister, and they have often beaten up people too out-spokenly left of center.
67.
Anonymous At Work
@Joey Maloney: The character who popularized that phrase was not an ally of Brutus.
The allies of Brutus who would say it wouldn’t use it as a compliment.
@jonas: Bibi seeking to protect himself is the whole ball game.
Sacrificing everything to the cruelty of the ultras is no sacrifice at all for him.
69.
Cameron
…and right on cue, in the spirit of good government, Governor Sassy Boots appears to have driven one of the final nails into Florida public education’s coffin:
I think of it as soft apartheid vs. hard apartheid.
71.
Princess
@Another Scott: Bibi claims to be backing down but meanwhile he is ordering all the right wingers into the streets in Jerusalem to wage a counter protest. Looks like he wants a civil war.
72.
Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg
Yours is an opinion I’ve long shared. The wave of Russian Jewish emigres both in Israel and the United States brought the worst ideas of Russian political society with them. There’s a surprising amount of racism, too.
73.
Geminid
@PaulWartenberg: I don’t think Israeli reservists are resigning in great numbers. Many are refusing to participate in regular training exercises, though. The Reserves are a very large component of the Israeli Defenes Forces’s strength.
74.
scav
@Princess: The tide is ebbing and Bibi really doesn’t want everyone everywhere to see what kind of threadbare support swimsuit he’s paddling in.
75.
cain
@lowtechcyclist: The anti-war protest for Iraq was the largest I believe in U.S. history. Not that W. listened.
76.
Princess
Noga Tarnopolsky is a good source on Twitter for what is going on.
77.
Geminid
@lowtechcyclist: I would just point out that the US totals cover total participation in these demonstrations over a number of months, not at one time and for some no more than once. There have been 200,000 or more Israelis protesting every Saturday night for six weeks now.
78.
trollhattan
Bibi, on observing Xi and Putin (et al) “Hey, looks pretty, pretty good.”
Also, wants to nut the courts while his corruption trial winds its leisurely path through those very courts. Some Capone-level shit right there.
Maybe it’s unfair, but I get the impression that Netanyahu is actually happy with antisemites outside Israel. He wants them to bully Jews in other countries to move to Israel. I can understand the view, but I don’t think he really understands the danger in letting antisemites take over the US, given just how much Israel depends on US aid.
82.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@Roger Moore: I don’t think he really understands the danger in letting antisemites take over the US, given just how much Israel depends on US aid.
Seems like we’re aiding them in a war against a foe the wingers hate even more and that Israel is tearing itself apart in the process. Win/win for the bigots.
I’d just like to see an Israel compassionate enough not to run an apartheid state and not to starve those apart.
83.
Baud
I’m not opposed to protests in the abstract, but I dislike American protest envy. It’s main effect is to sap democratic and Democratic vitality, and help Republicans.
84.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@Baud: I’m not opposed to protests in the abstract, but I dislike American protest envy.
When their protest is bigger than mine, I don’t give in to envy. I summon up my confidence and ask if I can touch it.
I would just point out that the US totals cover total participation in these demonstrations over a number of months, not at one time and for some no more than once. There have been 200,000 or more Israelis protesting every Saturday night for six weeks now.
I’m not arguing whose protests were bigger, just that we’ve had protests that were in the same ballpark, for less existential reasons.
The big thing to me is that I don’t think Bibi fully grasps how American Evangelicals see Israel. Yes, they support it, but their support is primarily because they want Armageddon and think Israel will play an important part in that. Or maybe he does understand that and is OK with it. Either way, he’s playing with fire.
89.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@Roger Moore: So is the concern that if Armageddon doesn’t manifest on a timeline acceptable to the fundamentalist Christian set, they’ll force one of their own?
Oh…yeah…forget I asked.
But if Bibi doesn’t think it’s gonna happen, he’s as free to milk those rubes as anyone else.
@WaterGirl: for me personally? Not at all. But my wife is a teacher, and I see what’s coming down the pike with this new bunch of kids and how their parents are choosing to deal (or, usually, not deal) with the problems these kids are presenting with, and I’ve got no good news for anybody on that front.
My wife is also a teacher and I totally hear you. Even in deep blue school districts we have Moms for Liberty white women trying to fuck things up for the rest of us.
91.
Geminid
@Roger Moore: Netanyahu understands the “End Times” prophesies that motivates evangelical support for Israel. They are well known among Jewish Americans and they have a lot of contact with Jewish Israelis.
Netanyahu is a fairly shrewd observer of American politics. I believe he even went to high school in the Philadelphia suburbs. He’s kept current on politics here since, especially once he rose in Israeli politics.
92.
cain
@Matt McIrvin: So does AIPAC support right wing Israel or do they also represent the Jews in America? For me, AIPAC is a right wing organization.
Had January 6 succeeded in preventing the vote, all bets would have been off.
94.
Matt McIrvin
@Roger Moore: He knows, he doesn’t care. It’s not a problem for him.
Also likely realizes that a lot of Trumpian “supporters of Israel” have an ethnic-cleansing dream of kicking out all the Jews in America and making them go there. But from an Israeli-right-nationalist perspective that’s not necessarily bad.
Netanyahu is a fairly shrewd observer of American politics. I believe he even went to high school in the Philadelphia suburbs. He’s kept current on politics here since, especially once he rose in Israeli politics.
We sure inspire a lot of right wingers don’t we? Hitler loved the shit the South was doing and Bibi grew up in Philly and apparently also learned some shit.
It wasn’t just Jewish immigrants. The break up of the USSR was followed by a wave of immigrants from Eastern Europe. Their bigotry isn’t limited to racism. There was a lot of misogyny, religious hatred and organized crime that came along with them.
97.
Matt McIrvin
@Geminid: I remember when I mostly knew of Netanyahu as a frequent writer on the Washington Post opinion pages. The little bio squib described him as a poet, if I recall correctly.
98.
Geminid
@cain: AIPAC supports Israel, period. As for the different wings of Israeli politics, they will support Netanyahu’s government just like they supported the Bennett/Lapid government before it. But like most American Jewish groups, they boycotted National Zionist leader Belazel Smotrich when he visited the US a few weeks ago. They consider him and his partner Ben-Gvir too radical.
I have not seen if AIPAC has taken a position on the judiciary legislation. I guess that’s easy enough to look up. Most leaders of American Jewish groups have spoken against it.
SFB has the lock (OK not the entire lock he’s not even close to big enough for that and far less than good enough) on zero consequences culture. He’s failed at every single thing he’s tried and given the money that he ripped off from his siblings when dad died he should have been worth 4 times what Forbes says he’s worth (in my bookkeeping he’s worth a rather tidy negative sum) if he’d done nothing but let the money work, you know earn interest. But no, he had to be worse, he had to own and be the end all of money. But he’s failed at every single thing he’s done. Because that’s who he is.
100.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@Matt McIrvin: The little bio squib described him as a poet
And I didn’t even know it…
101.
Geminid
@cain: I doubt if Netanyahu learned his right wing politics from the US’s. His politics are pretty much in the tradition of Likud party founder Menachim Begin. Begin was an honest man, though.
102.
Geminid
@Geminid: Smotrich is Netanyahu’s Finance Minister, while Itamar Ben-Gvir’s ministry governs the police. That was like making a pyromaniac head of the fire department. As a teenager, Ben-Gvir was so radical the Army would not draft him.
103.
cain
@Geminid: Has Uncle Joe weigh in yet? I assume he would be quite displeased.
104.
cain
Well, looks like another school shooting in Tennessee – 3 little kids were killed at an elementary school – the shooter is dead as well. A school shooting AKA “another day in America”
@cain: I should have been clearer. The political bullshit end of the job is horrific but that’s not actually the set of problems I’m referring to.
Put vaguely, the damn kids can’t focus or think. It’s not from the COVID shutdown, this was an irritating problem before but it’s now an enormous problem. I don’t want to do a Tony Jay length post on it but this country is going to have some real problems soon with a population cohort that won’t be able to function. As in “can’t work at any job period” lack of function.
@cain: The US has warned against these changes in the judiciary, as well as other legislation relating to governance of the West Bank. So have Israel’s European allies. President finally took a call from Netanyahu last week and he cautioned Netanyahu on these issues.
@cain: The US has warned against these changes in the judiciary, as well as other legislation relating to governance of the West Bank. So have Israel’s European allies.
They should clearly state that if these laws pass, they can forget about any kind of money.
111.
Princess
@Roger Moore: “Maybe it’s unfair, but I get the impression that Netanyahu is actually happy with antisemites outside Israel. ”
That’s not unfair. It is factually correct. His father, and he after him, have always believed that there was no safe place for Jews except in Israel. Antisemitism on the outside proves their point.
Everyone is already gearing up how odd it is that the shooter is a girl/woman.
115.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism: When I opened the article it was 5. I can’t stand reading about that stuff so I didn’t get far but, if there were other victims, I’d expect that number.to change again.
@cain: The US has warned against these changes in the judiciary, as well as other legislation relating to governance of the West Bank. So have Israel’s European allies.
They should clearly state that if these laws pass, they can forget about any kind of money.
117.
RedDirtGirl
@cain: There is a WaPo article today about how school budgets and human resources are being drained by all the requests for “transparency”.
One Virginia school district added half a million dollars to its budget just to process public records requests. In the span of 90 days this school year, an Arkansas district received 100 such requests that cost nearly $20,000 and 400 hours of staff labor to fill.
@cain: The US will not do that, at least not anytime soon. The military aid we give Israel is not tied to their internal politics, or to their governance of the West Bank either, and that won’t change under this administration.
The right, with their new post-Trump “zero-consequences for whites” culture, is showing the way.
Preach it.
122.
Geminid
@Geminid: The current US military aid package was negotiated by President Obama and enacted by Congress in 2016. It’s basically a continuation of the aid that President Carter promised Israel and Egypt after the Camp David Accords. The US President and Congress have continued it since.
123.
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
@Quinerly: So do I. The church is conservative evangelical, so there’s a lot of ways they could stress a girl to the breaking point.
No wounded according to the police briefing.
@Ohio Mom: Your opinion matches that of my secular Jewish husband, and everything I’ve read about this complicated situation backs that conclusion. There’s probably some Putler money fanning these flames too, as usual.
126.
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
@Quinerly:
Presbyterian Church in America, one of the more conservative/fundamentalist flavors of Presbyterian church.
I would be careful with making guesses ahead of the evidence. We really don’t know that much yet- they’ve just corrected the murder’s age substantially- so whatever guesses you make might be based on inaccurate information.
That other party had a hold on the country at one time. CA ran republican, and not all that long ago in the greater scheme of things. But republican rule does not work all that well with a lot of inhabitants, greater numbers generally do not like repression and republican/conservative rule generally brings more disliked controls/repression than democratic. At least that is my experience.
Do we in the US now have greater or lessor church attendance now than we did half a century ago? The answer is far less. It started to drop in my experience about 60 yrs ago. Going was a big part of life for me as a child. In my family and many others. If nothing else it was a meeting place for friends and fellow citizens. Other things replaced that meeting with friends. I lived outside of Columbus, OH for 11 yrs and if I was in town, Thursday nights was downtown night, sort of an open house thing, art galleries, etc. Mostly I think because of the gay community but it was a fun thing to go out and see the town and the people.
134.
Ohio Mom
@Matt McIrvin: I remember when Netanyahu was an almost constant guest on Ted Koppel. I was not a regular viewer but it seemed that every time I did tune in, there was Bibi.
135.
spc123
@Ohio Mom: it’s not just that. The ultra-orthodox population in general has a lot of kids and even if one or two stray their offspring still outnumber those of more secular-minded Israelis. This demographic is rapidly growing and gaining more political power. It doesn’t bode well for the future.
In our modern world we don’t always mix with too many other people. A lot of us live in single family homes, so they often live separate lives from most others. We have to work to belong, to mingle. We have limited time – work ya know, very important thing that work till you drop ethic. I’ve had months where I worked a physical job on my feet 50-60 hrs a week. You come home and want to do absolutely nothing. The last 9 yrs of my working life, 63-72 yrs old, I worked 3, 8hr days a week. Blasphemy I tells ya!
My point is that we worship money in this country and to get it we often work too much or too many days at a time. It’s one reason we have labor laws and time and a half over 40/8 hrs. Now that’s not to say others don’t worship money as well but this seems to me too be somewhat of a problem.
Somewhat large, yes, but also not seemingly all that well received by those that think others dying to build their bank accounts is a good thing. I’m only being very slightly sarcastic.
Joining the discussion late, this is a classic move in a unicameral legislature: remove the checks and balances.
In Canada, the premier of Ontario changed the laws for large cities so that a mayor no longer requires a majority of council to pass an act, if that act is in support of a provincial priority.
That removes majority rule, which would normally be enough to balance the desires of the premier and/or mayor.
There was a lot of misogyny, religious hatred and organized crime
I’m going out on a limb here and say I think that these are actually some fairly normal human traits. They occur in all things human, small groups to large countries and every thing in between. They sure aren’t new arrivals to life. And animals often herd up to protect themselves from outsiders that want what they have. So I’m pretty sure it’s not even just humans but life itself.
One problem is that our living arrangements are very isolating. People live in single family homes in neighborhoods that lack any kind of public space and which discourage them from trying to travel by any means except driving. That kills so many of the ways people used to form community.
In Canada, the premier of Ontario changed the laws for large cities so that a mayor no longer requires a majority of council to pass an act, if that act is in support of a provincial priority.
They also merged Toronto with many of its adjacent suburbs, so that the suburbanites outnumbered the people in the urban core. It was the same thing as states like Texas trying to drown out the power of their blue cities.
So which one of the now-dead teachers was the pastor who was sexually abusing her (or one of her siblings) — within a church culture that always blames the victims of sexual assault and leaves her feeling like there is no escape and never any justice?
Okay, I don’t know anything except what I’ve read here, so I know nothing about the shooter.
I jump to the possible answer of unbearable sex abuse because filthy pastors have been unveiled elsewhere … seems like a career choice invented specifically for men who want to be dirty.
Edit: as Gravenstone says, possible the shooter is parent of child who was abused?
Ahh, but I have to say I don’t understand why kids have been killed, in any case.
I agree 100%. Was going to put this concept into my comment but I’m trying to learn to limit my comments. Not sure it’s going well….
OTOH a lot of countries have much more close living for a lot of people and that doesn’t really seem to be all that much better. Here in SoCal, as you well know, while there are a lot/mostly single family homes there are a lot of apartments and while there may be some more mingling happening, it’s still pretty rare. Church used to be that place to get together, I see that it really isn’t any more. (On my block 1/2 mile long there are 3 churches and on Sunday the parking lots are almost always way less than 1/4 full) That leaves what as a gathering place?
145.
RSA
@Geminid: Israel’s population is a little under 10 million.
I just looked up a few numbers online, which gave me a useful comparison with respect to area and population:
Israel: 8,550 square miles, 9.36 million people.
New Jersey: 8,722 square miles, 9.26 million people.
Not sure this will help anyone else, though
ETA: So Israel is slightly smaller and slightly more dense than our fourth-smallest, highest-population-density state.
How much mingling there is varies a lot from community to community. I live in Pasadena, but I’m much closer to downtown Sierra Madre than downtown Pasadena, and I’m impressed with how much people in Sierra Madre get out and mingle in their public spaces. I think it helps immensely that Sierra Madre started as a streetcar suburb on a Red Car line, and it maintains a lot of the city character it picked up back then. It’s much easier to use your public spaces when they’re within easy walking distance. Even in car-centric Southern California, people will walk when there’s somewhere to walk.
When people talk about the charm of small towns, I think that’s a lot of what they’re talking about. They want to live in a place where they can take a pleasant walk to a nice public space, and their neighbors will be walking there, too. One of the things I’ve learned, though, is that there’s a lot of effort involved in maintaining that kind of place. Civic engagement has to become a normal part of your life, not something you do once in a while when you get bored.
148.
Barry
@Roger Moore: “Maybe it’s unfair, but I get the impression that Netanyahu is actually happy with antisemites outside Israel. He wants them to bully Jews in other countries to move to Israel. I can understand the view, but I don’t think he really understands the danger in letting antisemites take over the US, given just how much Israel depends on US aid.”
Also, they all hate democracy, liberals, other people’s freedom, and love corruption.
Here are some from Israel’s last election. First the results for Netanyahu’s 4 party coalition, with gains from the previous Knesset:
Likud. 23.41% 32 Mks (+2)
Religious Zionist. 17.78% 14 MKs (+8)
Shas 8.24% 11 MKs (+2)
UTJ. 5.88% 7 MKs (same)
The current opposition parties:
Yesh Atid. 17.78% 24 MKs (+7)
National Unity* 12 MKs (-2)
Yisrael Beitanyu 4.4% 6 MKs (-1)
Ra’am** 4.07% 5 MKs (+1)
Hadash Ta’al. 3.75% 5 MKs (-1)
Labor 3.69% 4 MKs (-3)
Two opposition parties failed to meet the 3.25% threshold that would have won them 4 MKs:
Meretz 3.16% 0 MKs (-4)
Balad 2.91%
Yesh Atid leader Yair Lapid campaigned hard to be the leader of what he hoped would be the next government. Some say he campaigned too hard, and “cannibalized” so many opposition voters that Meretz did not clear the threshold.
Labor leader Meriv Michaeli rebuffed Meretz’s plea to run a joint slate, perhaps because she was jockeying for position in the next government.
The head of Balad fell out with his Arab colleagues in Hadash Ta’al, and his party’s votes were wasted.
Because of these misteps, what could have been a 60MK-60MK tie turned into a 64-56 Knesset majority for Netanyahu’s coalition.
*National Unity was a combination of Benny Gantz’s Blue and White and Gideon Saar’s New Hope parties. The whole proved 2 MKs less than the sum of the parts.
**Mansour Abbas’s Ra’am party was part of the last governing coalition. It was the first Arab party to join an Israeli government since the nation’s founding.
I’m not opposed to protests in the abstract, but I dislike American protest envy.
Antifa and allies neutered the Jan 6 capital riot by … not showing up to counter protest. Word was put out to not show up, to keep away from the streets of Washington.
In general, D.J. Trump was separated from the levers of power in 2020/2021 without street protests, excepting several thousand violent Trump supporters.
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Another Scott
Bibi is trying to make himself above the law by stacking the supreme court. People started protesting, saying “we didn’t vote to make you king.” Defense minister said, “hey, maybe we ought to slow down and not do this.” Bibi said – “How dare you speak out against my policy. You’re fired.” Israelis said, “hey, you can’t do that and we still don’t want this law. We’re not going on military drills, not working at ports and airports, not studying in our university, etc., until you back down.”
Supposedly, this morning Bibi has backed down (but nobody sensible trusts him). Apparently the RWNJs are now claiming credit, because obviously the RWNJs are the only parties with agency there….
HTH!
Cheers,
Scott.
MattF
Gift link to WaPo article.
Anyway
Bibi is following the Orban playbook.
dmsilev
@Another Scott:
As I understood it, it’s more “make himself above the law by enabling his legislative coalition to override supreme court decisions he doesn’t like”. Same basic outcome though.
jonas
I think this whole thing is also turning out to be a reckoning of sorts between secular Israeli society — you know, the people who work, pay taxes, serve in the military, etc. — and the massive Heredi (ultra-orthodox) communities who (or whose parties) back Netanyahu and mostly live on welfare, attend only private religious schools, and don’t serve in the military. Carving out an exemption for religious scholars may have made some sense at Israel’s founding when such people formed a minute demographic and were seen as essential to preserving what was left of rabbinical scholarship — but they’re something like 1/6 of the population now and growing rapidly because they tend to have large families.
Joey Maloney
Shorter: shit’s blowing up.
Slightly longer: Bibi has finally bit off more than he can chew.
Slightly longer still: Bibi came back to power in a coalition of, literally, convicted terrorists and other criminals, Zionist fanatics, and ultra-religious crooks. They immediately put forward legislation to remove the only real check on their power, the judiciary especially the Supreme Court. And then, emboldened, the nuttiest members of his coalition vomited forth a deluge of insane right-wing legislation – a lot of it blatantly self-dealing – that would make Marjorie Taylor-Green blush. This got the attention of the Israeli public beyond the normal disorganized-and-dispirited leftist circular firing squad, and kicked off a series of demonstrations. But Bibi’s party has an absolute (if bare) majority in the Knesset and they refused to make even token gestures to slowing their roll. Demonstrations got larger and larger. A couple of weeks ago a movement started amongst military reservists – who unlike in the US, often volunteer to assist and are essential to the army’s operations – to refuse to serve. Demonstrations continued to grow all over the country. In Tel Aviv the Ayalon expressway, the main artery through town, was getting blocked for hours at a time. In Jerusalem they surrounded the PM’s residence.
Last week some time, the Defense Minister (who is, remember, a member Bibi’s party) went to him privately and said, you have to at least pause the legislation. Bibi told him to get bent. So yesterday the Defense Minister made a nationwide address where he said the push to pass these laws was affecting military readiness and endangering the nation. Bibi fired him. Then, kaboom.
Today the Histradut, the most powerful labor union, declared a general strike. The airport is closed. Schools are closed. Government offices are closed. Members of Bibi’s party, sensing that the ship is sinking, are deserting. Even though the party whip has publicly said anyone who goes against the party line is finished in Likud, it looks like there may no longer be a majority.
But never say never. Bibi has managed to wheel-and-deal himself out of trouble uncounted times up until now (and usually knifed his partners in the back as soon as the danger was past). Will he manage it one final time to make his coalition the permanent majority and end democracy? Stay tuned.
And of course meanwhile the Palestinians are saying, “Democracy? What democracy?” Last month we had an honest-to-ghu pogrom when a mob of Jewish settler youth attacked a West Bank town, set houses on fire, vandalized cars, attacked residents at random, while the army protected them. Protected the attackers, not the victims.
So, fun times.
Another Scott
@dmsilev:
Made me look. Natan Sachs at Brookings (from 2/23):
“It’s a dessert and a floor polish!”
:-/
Thanks.
Cheers,
Scott.
Jay C
Last I read, amid the chaos (which is shaping up to be something thing like a general strike, or near to it), Netanyahu announced he was going to put his judicial “reform” program on hold. Which, of course, the opposition is placing zero faith in…
Anonymous At Work
@dmsilev: More accurate summary, worse outcome. In order to reattain the position of Leader of his coalition, he had to include openly-racist religious zealots and fascists who will force Palestinians out of Gaza and West Bank with tanks, if allowed. There was already rioting started by Israelis in Gaza because, and this is my reading, so correct me, but basically “looking funny at Israelis” or some other contrivance.
Ohio Mom
@jonas: I try my best not to pay attention to Israel, which as an American Jew, isn’t always easy. I describe my position as analogous to someone with an active addict in the family. I’ve detached, when they have achieved a track record of sobriety, maybe get back to me then.
That said, I think there are two other dynamics to note, in addition to the increase in the number of haredi.
One is all the Russians who emigrated once they could leave and chose Israel on the basis they could claim a Jewish maternal ancestor. They brought their dysfunctional culture with them. I don’t think they fully get democracy and the rule of law.
The other is the brain drain. A good number of educated, skilled and liberal Jews have decamped for other places.
That said, I am thrilled to see that plenty of Israelis remain who have a bottom line. Good luck to them, I am pulling for them.
WaterGirl
@MattF: Wow. Words like “halt” and “frozen until next month” are not at all reassuring.
Translation:
“I’ll try this again later when the idea isn’t so new, and maybe you won’t make a fuss.”
WaterGirl
@Joey Maloney: You are still living in Israel, yes?
edit: okay, no I have read your whole comment. Holy shit. To all of it.
Roger Moore
@jonas:
Which might have something to do with them receiving massive subsidies from the rest of Israeli society. When you subsidize something, you tend to get more of it, and that apparently includes religious fanatics.
rikyrah
@MattF:
thanks
...now I try to be amused
If you’ll pardon a naive question, why is Likud so attached to Netanyahu? Does he have a cult of personality? I’ve read that there are right-wing parties happy to join a coalition with Likud, provided Likud ditched Bibi. Then Likud wouldn’t need the fringe parties.
WaterGirl
@Anonymous At Work: Sounds bit like the equivalent of driving while black. Or maybe even like the black man a few years ago who was stopped while riding his bike because some cop didn’t like the look on his face.
But then it turned much more than that.
Geminid
@Ohio Mom: I do not know that much about the politics of first and second generation Russian immigrants in Israel. But it’s worth noting that the popular base of opposition party Yisrael Beitenyahu (with 5 MKs), is primarily secular Russian immigrants. They oppose the influence of Netanyahu’s ultra-Orthodox coalition partners.
Also, party leader Avigdor Lieberman has a personal problem with Netanyahu: basically, Lieberman hates Netanyahu’s guts.
Joey Maloney
Times of Israel liveblog
Ivan X
@Ohio Mom: thanks for your insight on this subject — I always appreciate it.
Geminid
National security and foreign affairs writer Laura Rozen is covering these events on her Twitter feed. She is mainly linking to Israeli sources. Rozen is a good resource on general; I found her through Cheryl Rofer.
The Times of Israel and the Jerusalem Post are also good sources for Israeli politics.
Elizabelle
Gift link to a second WaPost article.
Analysis: Israel’s democratic crisis is about more than just Netanyahu
Proud of the Israelis for protesting. I wish we in the USA did more of this.
Another Scott
(Via Oryx)
Cheers,
Scott.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
The US has upgraded to cyber-protesting. Now we can protest from the comfort of our own home.
This approach has many advantages; no societal disruption, your message doesn’t have to face the challenge of contact with someone who doesn’t already agree, and leaders can ignore the protest far more efficiently.
Just think of Balloon Juice as an ongoing 20 some-odd year protest.
Betty Cracker
@Joey Maloney: Thanks so much for this summary! I don’t understand Israeli politics at all and have been especially mystified by Netanyahu’s iron grip.
Damn. Wishing strength, resolve and courage to the protestors who are trying to save their democracy.
lowtechcyclist
@Elizabelle:
There were some rather big protests across the U.S. three summers ago after George Floyd got murdered by the cops.
Six years ago, the Women’s March was also pretty damn big.
The Moar You Know
@Ohio Mom: Some of them came to America instead: my brother is married to the daughter of such a couple.
They don’t get democracy, they think law is something you buy, and they don’t understand money or debt at all. They’ve been here over forty years. They don’t get it and they don’t even want to try. They are not stupid people by any stretch, BTW. They just refuse to accept that they could be liable or suffer consequences for anything.
I’ve known them for over 30 years now. These were the best and the brightest that the USSR had; I no longer ask “why did the USSR fail”, but simply “how did it take so long?”
America seems hellbent to follow. The right, with their new post-Trump “zero-consequences for whites” culture, is showing the way.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
Needs moar protesters. I know many, many people who were broadly supportive of those protests; myself included; who sat out. Shit needs to grind to a halt over police violence against minorities, unsafe workplaces for women, or take your pick.
Eta: Of course look for not grinding shit to a halt solutions too. But talk about a protest with most people, the response will be “I can’t miss work.” Even if you’re talking a work strike.
Geminid
@lowtechcyclist: Yes, those protests were big. But this is a nation of over 330 mllion people, and Israel’s population is a little under 10 million. The appearance of over 200,000 protesters in Israel’s streets is unprecedented; a comparable number for this country would be over 6.5 million.
lowtechcyclist
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation:
Didn’t you hear? We turned the downtowns of Portland and Seattle into charred ruins!
Or at least, that’s what Faux News says.
Omnes Omnibus
@lowtechcyclist: I recall some things happening after Dobbs as well.
WaterGirl
From Elizabelle’s gift link. Bolding mine.
Omnes Omnibus
Horse shit.
WaterGirl
@The Moar You Know: I don’t remember you being so negative about the prospects of America until the past year or so. I am wondering if something changed for you in that time?
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@lowtechcyclist: Who do you think claimed the remains of the space needle, now deformed by heat?
Another Scott
Meanwhile, in Germany… Reuters:
Interesting times in lots of places right now…
Cheers,
Scott.
Omnes Omnibus
@WaterGirl: You were more polite than I was.
lowtechcyclist
@Geminid:
Wikipedia:
The Women’s March of January 21, 2017 wasn’t quite that big, but then it was just a one-day thing. Wikipedia again:
And keep in mind that the Israelis are protesting a specific imminent action that would mean the end of their democracy. To the extent we’ve experienced a moment like that, it was over before we had a chance to protest
ETA: I think this went into moderation because of the links inside the Wikipedia quotes, which I’m sure gave me too many links in one comment. I’ve de-linked those, so I should be down to two links now.
Roger Moore
@Geminid:
I don’t think you can do the kind of straight number-to-number comparison you’re doing. The US is a much bigger and more diffuse country than Israel. Everyone in Israel is within easy traveling distance of the capital, so it’s practical to have a single massive national protest. You just can’t do the same thing in the USA. Much as people here in California might like to protest on the national mall in DC, it just isn’t possible the same way the equivalent is in Israel. The bigger and more diffuse a country is, the smaller a big national protest will be relative to the whole population.
Matt McIrvin
@WaterGirl: I said in another thread that if we abandon our basic commitments to freedom and justice and fairness, we’re just a gang.
The flip side of that is a worry: what if we need to be a gang to survive? What if things are so far gone that it’s really us or them? What if the only brake on their eliminationism is an eliminationism of our own?
I worry about that a lot.
I guess that in some ways, things were worse when I was young and they really did have a majority–the right often said stirring things in defense of democracy because they knew that with democracy, they would usually win.
They’re even starting to notice that that’s not true any more; I don’t hear “that’s why you libs always lose elections” as often as I used to. Instead, it’s griping about voter fraud and declarations that they’d prefer a strong tyrant to a wimpy democracy.
The Moar You Know
@WaterGirl: for me personally? Not at all. But my wife is a teacher, and I see what’s coming down the pike with this new bunch of kids and how their parents are choosing to deal (or, usually, not deal) with the problems these kids are presenting with, and I’ve got no good news for anybody on that front.
Anonymous At Work
@WaterGirl: Not quite as bad as Tulsa Massacre but similar in some ways as Israeli settlers were looking for an excuse to riot and then have the Israeli Army come in and attack the Palestinians for defending themselves against rioters.
Alison Rose
Always extra fun being a liberal American Jew when Israel decides to get extra stupid. Sigh.
Omnes Omnibus
@Matt McIrvin: We are supposed to be the good guys. That doesn’t preclude fighting and fighting hard. Perhaps we could give that a shot before we worry about needing to become monsters?
CliosFanBoy
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation: I think they hired Magneto to straighten it out. :)
Geminid
@WaterGirl: Like it or not, this and the last few Israeli governments have tried to manage the Palestinian question, not solve it. So these protests are not about the rights of Palestinians in the West Bank or Gaza per se. But at least for the West Bank Palestinians who live under Israel’s control, the composition of Israel’s Supreme Court is a critical factor in their lives.
Israel’s own Arab citizens will be more directly affected by this struggle. They number almost 2 million people, close to 20% of Israel’s population. The two Arab parties number just 11 though, under 10% of the Knesset. Some vote for the “Zionist” parties but overall participation is lower than the national average. My guess is that this is because of cynicism, apathy and on the part of some, a refusal to acknowledge Israel’s legitimacy.
CliosFanBoy
@Alison Rose: One of my Jewish colleagues was telling me how frustrated she gets when right-wingers on the Jewish discussion board she reads repeat the Soros conspiracy nonsense. She says they’re not even bothered when she points out the anti-Soros nonsense was started by literal European NAZIs re-using old anti-Semetic smears. I reminded her that there were literal NAZI Jews in Germany who thought the NAZIs would only go after the “bad Jews.” That delusion was quickly snuffed out.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@Omnes Omnibus: Personally, I’m more optimistic about the direction of the country than I have been in my entire adult life.
Democrats are more on the same page than I’ve ever seen, Republicans are frenzied. Social and economic justice ideas are gaining purchase, hence the Republican frenzy.
On a more personal note, I’m on track to have money to save, like in a bank, for the first time in 20 years. Let’s go Brandon, completely unironically.
@CliosFanBoy: Nah, that’s a replacement. I have the original. It was a bitch to haul across the country.
jonas
@Anonymous At Work: Gaza is fully in Palestinian (Hamas) hands (though its autonomy is highly restricted by Israel). Jewish settlers were evacuated from there years ago. Israel still occupies most of the West Bank, however, which a lot of these Haredi groups want to basically annex and, if they had their druthers, simply ethnically cleanse of all Palestinians and Arabs. Netanyahu has realized he can maintain the support of the ultra-orthodox parties and a slim hold on power by entertaining this scheme. His bigger agenda, however, is making himself and his cronies completely legally unaccountable for the massive corruption he has engaged in over the years. Supporting ultra-orthodox fever dreams of an Arabenrein West Bank is just a means to an end.
pajaro
@Joey Maloney:
Thank you for the summary. Just to add, the Israeli equivalent of the Proud Boys have called on their members to go and attack the demonstrators tonight, so things may get a bit ugly.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
Plus ça change, it’s all the same shit.
Joey Maloney
I work in the building pictured behind all the protesters.
https://mstdn.social/@BadExampleMan/110095832456846434
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@Joey Maloney: And I thought my commute was bad…
Anonymous At Work
@jonas: I can never remember Gaza vs. West Strip as far as which one is being starved into oblivion vs. bulldozed away. But end-result is the same. Grifters and racist zealots combining to play on people’s fears and destroy a democracy.
But Brutus is an honorable man…
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
Or, as we say in America, the dream team.
lowtechcyclist
@Matt McIrvin:
The way I’d put it is: is it reasonable to expect a democratic society to put up indefinitely with a very large minority that’s actively hostile to democracy? To what extent is it necessary, in order to be true to our democratic ideals, to give them a seemingly unlimited number of opportunities to use democratic means to turn us into an authoritarian state?
It feels like our democracy is being forced to play Russian roulette repeatedly. It didn’t used to be that if the other party won, we’d think that might be the end of our democracy. But it is that way now. What do we do about that?
Geminid
@Roger Moore: Well, I did make that straight line comparison. I did not intend that it express the whole story, but I thought it worth pointing out a difference in scale between the George Floyd demonstrations and these.
And these demonstrations are not concentrated in the capital of Jerusalem. They are nationwide; the ones in Tel Aviv are the largest, until recently larger than Jerusalem’s, but they occur in other cities as well. Even Bedouins in the Negev Desert are joining in.
raven
Spring, 1968
Matt McIrvin
@CliosFanBoy: The right in Israel doesn’t particularly care whether antisemitic fascists take power far away in America, if it gets them what they want. It might help them inasmuch as one of the big antisemitic tropes here is to despise liberal diaspora Jews but regard the Israeli right as the good kind of Jews.
But here, people have less excuse.
Formerly disgruntled in Oregon
@raven: I was going to bring up 2003 anti-war protests, but you win. Anti-war protests during Vietnam were absolutely massive (so I hear from my elders).
Geminid
@jonas: Egypt also restricts Gaza’s autonomy, often in coordination with Israel. They share a border with Gaza and control access for people and trade.
Joey Maloney
That’s not an encomium that even his allies will offer about Bibi.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@Joey Maloney: An enconium for teaching me a new word; uh, thanks, that was great.
Matt McIrvin
@lowtechcyclist: We had a large number of proudly antidemocratic, illiberal polities in the American South in the 20th century, in blatant violation of Constitutional guarantees. It took a very long time to deal with that but people did. (And now a lot of the resulting protections are being dismantled.)
That’s probably the model for us, since it’s 100% American and involves a lot of the same groups even in the same places. And, yes, through that whole period there was active debate about whether and how much violence was necessary, how hard you need to turn the screws on a society that’s eliminated democratic means of reform, etc
ETA: “nonviolent” of course doesn’t mean “nobody gets killed”–often the tactic was precisely to sacrifice members of your own side to murder by your opponents, which is brutal in itself.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
Republicans’ sole focus since at least GWB has been rebranding the same shit. A tactic long known to somehow -ascendant coalition members, the lost causers.
Sanctity of marriage no working anymore? It’s about groomers. Can’t call minorities and immigrants thugs and criminals? Rail against the woke agenda.
PaulWartenberg
The Far Right in the Israeli government, looking to neuter the Courts – they have often softened or blocked attempts to annex the whole West Bank and Gaza – along with Netanyahu who’s looking to block the courts from punishing him in his ongoing bribery trial (!!!) are trying to pass laws making it easier for the Knesset to overrule court decisions and negate other actions those courts could take. Without a Constitution creating checks and balances, this would skew all power to the Knesset and to the Prime Minister (which is currently Netanyahu who came back to power last December with an extremist Far Right coalition).
Thing is, the people are aware that this is a dictatorial power grab by Bibi. The military is losing reservists who are resigning in great numbers or refusing to serve if called up. The coalition is facing defections from a small number of ministers who realize this is a step too far, although Netanyahu already survived a recent no-confidence vote.
This is not going to end cleanly.
sab
@pajaro: The Israeli Right has always been scary. They murdered a Prime Minister, and they have often beaten up people too out-spokenly left of center.
Anonymous At Work
@Joey Maloney: The character who popularized that phrase was not an ally of Brutus.
The allies of Brutus who would say it wouldn’t use it as a compliment.
MazeDancer
@jonas: Bibi seeking to protect himself is the whole ball game.
Sacrificing everything to the cruelty of the ultras is no sacrifice at all for him.
Cameron
…and right on cue, in the spirit of good government, Governor Sassy Boots appears to have driven one of the final nails into Florida public education’s coffin:
https://www.tampabay.com/news/education/2023/03/27/desantis-signs-far-reaching-school-voucher-expansion-into-florida-law/
Chester
I think of it as soft apartheid vs. hard apartheid.
Princess
@Another Scott: Bibi claims to be backing down but meanwhile he is ordering all the right wingers into the streets in Jerusalem to wage a counter protest. Looks like he wants a civil war.
Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg
@Ohio Mom:
Yours is an opinion I’ve long shared. The wave of Russian Jewish emigres both in Israel and the United States brought the worst ideas of Russian political society with them. There’s a surprising amount of racism, too.
Geminid
@PaulWartenberg: I don’t think Israeli reservists are resigning in great numbers. Many are refusing to participate in regular training exercises, though. The Reserves are a very large component of the Israeli Defenes Forces’s strength.
scav
@Princess: The tide is ebbing and Bibi really doesn’t want everyone everywhere to see what kind of threadbare support swimsuit he’s paddling in.
cain
@lowtechcyclist: The anti-war protest for Iraq was the largest I believe in U.S. history. Not that W. listened.
Princess
Noga Tarnopolsky is a good source on Twitter for what is going on.
Geminid
@lowtechcyclist: I would just point out that the US totals cover total participation in these demonstrations over a number of months, not at one time and for some no more than once. There have been 200,000 or more Israelis protesting every Saturday night for six weeks now.
trollhattan
Bibi, on observing Xi and Putin (et al) “Hey, looks pretty, pretty good.”
Also, wants to nut the courts while his corruption trial winds its leisurely path through those very courts. Some Capone-level shit right there.
trollhattan
@cain:
Just some riffraff, blowing off steam. See also, the women’s march around the time of Trump’s inauguration. Think he was concerned?
Elizabelle
@trollhattan: Although. I think the Women’s March inspired its participants and observers to keep resisting, in their own states and localities.
For TFG, any attention was usually positive. (He may change his feelings on that in the coming weeks. Let’s hope.)
Roger Moore
@Matt McIrvin:
Maybe it’s unfair, but I get the impression that Netanyahu is actually happy with antisemites outside Israel. He wants them to bully Jews in other countries to move to Israel. I can understand the view, but I don’t think he really understands the danger in letting antisemites take over the US, given just how much Israel depends on US aid.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
Seems like we’re aiding them in a war against a foe the wingers hate even more and that Israel is tearing itself apart in the process. Win/win for the bigots.
I’d just like to see an Israel compassionate enough not to run an apartheid state and not to starve those apart.
Baud
I’m not opposed to protests in the abstract, but I dislike American protest envy. It’s main effect is to sap democratic and Democratic vitality, and help Republicans.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
When their protest is bigger than mine, I don’t give in to envy. I summon up my confidence and ask if I can touch it.
Baud
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation:
You must ask that question a lot.
lowtechcyclist
@Geminid:
I’m not arguing whose protests were bigger, just that we’ve had protests that were in the same ballpark, for less existential reasons.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@Baud: Wait, are we talking about the same thing?
Roger Moore
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation:
The big thing to me is that I don’t think Bibi fully grasps how American Evangelicals see Israel. Yes, they support it, but their support is primarily because they want Armageddon and think Israel will play an important part in that. Or maybe he does understand that and is OK with it. Either way, he’s playing with fire.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@Roger Moore: So is the concern that if Armageddon doesn’t manifest on a timeline acceptable to the fundamentalist Christian set, they’ll force one of their own?
Oh…yeah…forget I asked.
But if Bibi doesn’t think it’s gonna happen, he’s as free to milk those rubes as anyone else.
cain
@The Moar You Know:
My wife is also a teacher and I totally hear you. Even in deep blue school districts we have Moms for Liberty white women trying to fuck things up for the rest of us.
Geminid
@Roger Moore: Netanyahu understands the “End Times” prophesies that motivates evangelical support for Israel. They are well known among Jewish Americans and they have a lot of contact with Jewish Israelis.
Netanyahu is a fairly shrewd observer of American politics. I believe he even went to high school in the Philadelphia suburbs. He’s kept current on politics here since, especially once he rose in Israeli politics.
cain
@Matt McIrvin: So does AIPAC support right wing Israel or do they also represent the Jews in America? For me, AIPAC is a right wing organization.
Baud
@lowtechcyclist:
Had January 6 succeeded in preventing the vote, all bets would have been off.
Matt McIrvin
@Roger Moore: He knows, he doesn’t care. It’s not a problem for him.
Also likely realizes that a lot of Trumpian “supporters of Israel” have an ethnic-cleansing dream of kicking out all the Jews in America and making them go there. But from an Israeli-right-nationalist perspective that’s not necessarily bad.
cain
@Geminid:
We sure inspire a lot of right wingers don’t we? Hitler loved the shit the South was doing and Bibi grew up in Philly and apparently also learned some shit.
artem1s
@Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg:
It wasn’t just Jewish immigrants. The break up of the USSR was followed by a wave of immigrants from Eastern Europe. Their bigotry isn’t limited to racism. There was a lot of misogyny, religious hatred and organized crime that came along with them.
Matt McIrvin
@Geminid: I remember when I mostly knew of Netanyahu as a frequent writer on the Washington Post opinion pages. The little bio squib described him as a poet, if I recall correctly.
Geminid
@cain: AIPAC supports Israel, period. As for the different wings of Israeli politics, they will support Netanyahu’s government just like they supported the Bennett/Lapid government before it. But like most American Jewish groups, they boycotted National Zionist leader Belazel Smotrich when he visited the US a few weeks ago. They consider him and his partner Ben-Gvir too radical.
I have not seen if AIPAC has taken a position on the judiciary legislation. I guess that’s easy enough to look up. Most leaders of American Jewish groups have spoken against it.
Ruckus
@The Moar You Know:
SFB has the lock (OK not the entire lock he’s not even close to big enough for that and far less than good enough) on zero consequences culture. He’s failed at every single thing he’s tried and given the money that he ripped off from his siblings when dad died he should have been worth 4 times what Forbes says he’s worth (in my bookkeeping he’s worth a rather tidy negative sum) if he’d done nothing but let the money work, you know earn interest. But no, he had to be worse, he had to own and be the end all of money. But he’s failed at every single thing he’s done. Because that’s who he is.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
And I didn’t even know it…
Geminid
@cain: I doubt if Netanyahu learned his right wing politics from the US’s. His politics are pretty much in the tradition of Likud party founder Menachim Begin. Begin was an honest man, though.
Geminid
@Geminid: Smotrich is Netanyahu’s Finance Minister, while Itamar Ben-Gvir’s ministry governs the police. That was like making a pyromaniac head of the fire department. As a teenager, Ben-Gvir was so radical the Army would not draft him.
cain
@Geminid: Has Uncle Joe weigh in yet? I assume he would be quite displeased.
cain
Well, looks like another school shooting in Tennessee – 3 little kids were killed at an elementary school – the shooter is dead as well. A school shooting AKA “another day in America”
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/27/us/nashville-shooting-covenant-school.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare
Quinerly
@cain:
Female shooter. In her teens possibly. 2 assault rifles and a handgun
The Moar You Know
@cain: I should have been clearer. The political bullshit end of the job is horrific but that’s not actually the set of problems I’m referring to.
Put vaguely, the damn kids can’t focus or think. It’s not from the COVID shutdown, this was an irritating problem before but it’s now an enormous problem. I don’t want to do a Tony Jay length post on it but this country is going to have some real problems soon with a population cohort that won’t be able to function. As in “can’t work at any job period” lack of function.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
Which means 5 more victims of woke feminism.
I’d ask if it’s too soon to joke about, but I’m damn near certain some high grand wingnut is preaching that to his flock right now.
Quinerly
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation:
6 deceased plus her
News conference now.
Private school in a church.
3 adults dead
3 students dead
Shooter dead
Geminid
@cain: The US has warned against these changes in the judiciary, as well as other legislation relating to governance of the West Bank. So have Israel’s European allies. President finally took a call from Netanyahu last week and he cautioned Netanyahu on these issues.
cain
@Geminid:
They should clearly state that if these laws pass, they can forget about any kind of money.
Princess
@Roger Moore: “Maybe it’s unfair, but I get the impression that Netanyahu is actually happy with antisemites outside Israel. ”
That’s not unfair. It is factually correct. His father, and he after him, have always believed that there was no safe place for Jews except in Israel. Antisemitism on the outside proves their point.
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation:
6. It’s a private school connected to a church.
Princess
@cain: At least they didn’t need to look at David’s stone wang before they died.
Quinerly
@Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism:
I hope to DOG this isn’t a Trans shooter.
Everyone is already gearing up how odd it is that the shooter is a girl/woman.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism: When I opened the article it was 5. I can’t stand reading about that stuff so I didn’t get far but, if there were other victims, I’d expect that number.to change again.
cain
@Geminid:
They should clearly state that if these laws pass, they can forget about any kind of money.
RedDirtGirl
@cain: There is a WaPo article today about how school budgets and human resources are being drained by all the requests for “transparency”.
One Virginia school district added half a million dollars to its budget just to process public records requests. In the span of 90 days this school year, an Arkansas district received 100 such requests that cost nearly $20,000 and 400 hours of staff labor to fill.
cain
@Quinerly: JFC – let’s hope not.
Geminid
@cain: The US will not do that, at least not anytime soon. The military aid we give Israel is not tied to their internal politics, or to their governance of the West Bank either, and that won’t change under this administration.
Quinerly
@cain:
FBI guy on MSNBC talking about how specific the police’s news brief was. “Shooter appears to be a female in her teens.”
rikyrah
@The Moar You Know:
Preach it.
Geminid
@Geminid: The current US military aid package was negotiated by President Obama and enacted by Congress in 2016. It’s basically a continuation of the aid that President Carter promised Israel and Egypt after the Camp David Accords. The US President and Congress have continued it since.
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
@Quinerly: So do I. The church is conservative evangelical, so there’s a lot of ways they could stress a girl to the breaking point.
No wounded according to the police briefing.
Quinerly
@Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism:
Presbyterian. 33 teachers total. 8 to1 teacher to student ratio. Preschool thru 6th grade.
StringOnAStick
@Ohio Mom: Your opinion matches that of my secular Jewish husband, and everything I’ve read about this complicated situation backs that conclusion. There’s probably some Putler money fanning these flames too, as usual.
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
@Quinerly:
Presbyterian Church in America, one of the more conservative/fundamentalist flavors of Presbyterian church.
Now they’re saying the shooter was 28.
Quinerly
@Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism:
You and are listening to MSNBC. Just came back here to read/update.
karen marie
@Another Scott: I really appreciate the clarity of this explainer. Thanks for posting it.
Elizabelle
@RedDirtGirl: I’ll read that WaPost article.
I hope someone figures some way of shutting that whole series of requests down. It is stealing money and resources meant for education. MFs.
Gravenstone
@Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism: I was going to guess an abuse victim. At that age, possibly the parent of one instead/too?
...now I try to be amused
@Geminid:
Yep. He speaks English with a Philly accent.
Roger Moore
@Gravenstone:
I would be careful with making guesses ahead of the evidence. We really don’t know that much yet- they’ve just corrected the murder’s age substantially- so whatever guesses you make might be based on inaccurate information.
Ruckus
@lowtechcyclist:
That other party had a hold on the country at one time. CA ran republican, and not all that long ago in the greater scheme of things. But republican rule does not work all that well with a lot of inhabitants, greater numbers generally do not like repression and republican/conservative rule generally brings more disliked controls/repression than democratic. At least that is my experience.
Do we in the US now have greater or lessor church attendance now than we did half a century ago? The answer is far less. It started to drop in my experience about 60 yrs ago. Going was a big part of life for me as a child. In my family and many others. If nothing else it was a meeting place for friends and fellow citizens. Other things replaced that meeting with friends. I lived outside of Columbus, OH for 11 yrs and if I was in town, Thursday nights was downtown night, sort of an open house thing, art galleries, etc. Mostly I think because of the gay community but it was a fun thing to go out and see the town and the people.
Ohio Mom
@Matt McIrvin: I remember when Netanyahu was an almost constant guest on Ted Koppel. I was not a regular viewer but it seemed that every time I did tune in, there was Bibi.
spc123
@Ohio Mom: it’s not just that. The ultra-orthodox population in general has a lot of kids and even if one or two stray their offspring still outnumber those of more secular-minded Israelis. This demographic is rapidly growing and gaining more political power. It doesn’t bode well for the future.
Ruckus
@lowtechcyclist:
What do we do about that?
In our modern world we don’t always mix with too many other people. A lot of us live in single family homes, so they often live separate lives from most others. We have to work to belong, to mingle. We have limited time – work ya know, very important thing that work till you drop ethic. I’ve had months where I worked a physical job on my feet 50-60 hrs a week. You come home and want to do absolutely nothing. The last 9 yrs of my working life, 63-72 yrs old, I worked 3, 8hr days a week. Blasphemy I tells ya!
My point is that we worship money in this country and to get it we often work too much or too many days at a time. It’s one reason we have labor laws and time and a half over 40/8 hrs. Now that’s not to say others don’t worship money as well but this seems to me too be somewhat of a problem.
Ruckus
@Formerly disgruntled in Oregon:
Somewhat large, yes, but also not seemingly all that well received by those that think others dying to build their bank accounts is a good thing. I’m only being very slightly sarcastic.
Ruckus
@cain:
Moms for Liberty
I take it that the liberty they are talking about is NOT for everyone…..
davecb
Joining the discussion late, this is a classic move in a unicameral legislature: remove the checks and balances.
In Canada, the premier of Ontario changed the laws for large cities so that a mayor no longer requires a majority of council to pass an act, if that act is in support of a provincial priority.
That removes majority rule, which would normally be enough to balance the desires of the premier and/or mayor.
Ruckus
@artem1s:
There was a lot of misogyny, religious hatred and organized crime
I’m going out on a limb here and say I think that these are actually some fairly normal human traits. They occur in all things human, small groups to large countries and every thing in between. They sure aren’t new arrivals to life. And animals often herd up to protect themselves from outsiders that want what they have. So I’m pretty sure it’s not even just humans but life itself.
Roger Moore
@Ruckus:
One problem is that our living arrangements are very isolating. People live in single family homes in neighborhoods that lack any kind of public space and which discourage them from trying to travel by any means except driving. That kills so many of the ways people used to form community.
Roger Moore
@davecb:
They also merged Toronto with many of its adjacent suburbs, so that the suburbanites outnumbered the people in the urban core. It was the same thing as states like Texas trying to drown out the power of their blue cities.
hotshoe
@Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism:
So which one of the now-dead teachers was the pastor who was sexually abusing her (or one of her siblings) — within a church culture that always blames the victims of sexual assault and leaves her feeling like there is no escape and never any justice?
Okay, I don’t know anything except what I’ve read here, so I know nothing about the shooter.
I jump to the possible answer of unbearable sex abuse because filthy pastors have been unveiled elsewhere … seems like a career choice invented specifically for men who want to be dirty.
Edit: as Gravenstone says, possible the shooter is parent of child who was abused?
Ahh, but I have to say I don’t understand why kids have been killed, in any case.
Ruckus
@Roger Moore:
I agree 100%. Was going to put this concept into my comment but I’m trying to learn to limit my comments. Not sure it’s going well….
OTOH a lot of countries have much more close living for a lot of people and that doesn’t really seem to be all that much better. Here in SoCal, as you well know, while there are a lot/mostly single family homes there are a lot of apartments and while there may be some more mingling happening, it’s still pretty rare. Church used to be that place to get together, I see that it really isn’t any more. (On my block 1/2 mile long there are 3 churches and on Sunday the parking lots are almost always way less than 1/4 full) That leaves what as a gathering place?
RSA
I just looked up a few numbers online, which gave me a useful comparison with respect to area and population:
Israel: 8,550 square miles, 9.36 million people.
New Jersey: 8,722 square miles, 9.26 million people.
Not sure this will help anyone else, though
ETA: So Israel is slightly smaller and slightly more dense than our fourth-smallest, highest-population-density state.
Ruckus
@RSA:
Los Angeles County is 4753 sq miles and has a population of 9.83 million. Just as a comparison to other parts of the US.
Roger Moore
@Ruckus:
How much mingling there is varies a lot from community to community. I live in Pasadena, but I’m much closer to downtown Sierra Madre than downtown Pasadena, and I’m impressed with how much people in Sierra Madre get out and mingle in their public spaces. I think it helps immensely that Sierra Madre started as a streetcar suburb on a Red Car line, and it maintains a lot of the city character it picked up back then. It’s much easier to use your public spaces when they’re within easy walking distance. Even in car-centric Southern California, people will walk when there’s somewhere to walk.
When people talk about the charm of small towns, I think that’s a lot of what they’re talking about. They want to live in a place where they can take a pleasant walk to a nice public space, and their neighbors will be walking there, too. One of the things I’ve learned, though, is that there’s a lot of effort involved in maintaining that kind of place. Civic engagement has to become a normal part of your life, not something you do once in a while when you get bored.
Barry
@Roger Moore: “Maybe it’s unfair, but I get the impression that Netanyahu is actually happy with antisemites outside Israel. He wants them to bully Jews in other countries to move to Israel. I can understand the view, but I don’t think he really understands the danger in letting antisemites take over the US, given just how much Israel depends on US aid.”
Also, they all hate democracy, liberals, other people’s freedom, and love corruption.
Geminid
@RSA: Metrics are good!
Here are some from Israel’s last election. First the results for Netanyahu’s 4 party coalition, with gains from the previous Knesset:
Likud. 23.41% 32 Mks (+2)
Religious Zionist. 17.78% 14 MKs (+8)
Shas 8.24% 11 MKs (+2)
UTJ. 5.88% 7 MKs (same)
The current opposition parties:
Yesh Atid. 17.78% 24 MKs (+7)
National Unity* 12 MKs (-2)
Yisrael Beitanyu 4.4% 6 MKs (-1)
Ra’am** 4.07% 5 MKs (+1)
Hadash Ta’al. 3.75% 5 MKs (-1)
Labor 3.69% 4 MKs (-3)
Two opposition parties failed to meet the 3.25% threshold that would have won them 4 MKs:
Meretz 3.16% 0 MKs (-4)
Balad 2.91%
Yesh Atid leader Yair Lapid campaigned hard to be the leader of what he hoped would be the next government. Some say he campaigned too hard, and “cannibalized” so many opposition voters that Meretz did not clear the threshold.
Labor leader Meriv Michaeli rebuffed Meretz’s plea to run a joint slate, perhaps because she was jockeying for position in the next government.
The head of Balad fell out with his Arab colleagues in Hadash Ta’al, and his party’s votes were wasted.
Because of these misteps, what could have been a 60MK-60MK tie turned into a 64-56 Knesset majority for Netanyahu’s coalition.
*National Unity was a combination of Benny Gantz’s Blue and White and Gideon Saar’s New Hope parties. The whole proved 2 MKs less than the sum of the parts.
**Mansour Abbas’s Ra’am party was part of the last governing coalition. It was the first Arab party to join an Israeli government since the nation’s founding.
Bill Arnold
@Baud:
Antifa and allies neutered the Jan 6 capital riot by … not showing up to counter protest. Word was put out to not show up, to keep away from the streets of Washington.
In general, D.J. Trump was separated from the levers of power in 2020/2021 without street protests, excepting several thousand violent Trump supporters.