Donald Trump tried to end American democracy. Why is CNN throwing him a rehabilitation party?
Donald Trump tried to end American democracy. Why is CNN throwing him a rehabilitation party?
by Michael Fanone
I WOKE UP last week to a text from my mother. Its contents hit me like a sucker punch. “CNN is hosting a town hall with Trump; Kaitlin Collins is moderating. WTF!!!” Then came confirmation: CNN will in fact host a town hall on Wednesday, May 10, in prime time.
I can already hear the questions: And why shouldn’t they? Donald Trump is the clear Republican frontrunner for the presidency enjoying at least 70 percent of the Republican primary vote. Why wouldn’t it be appropriate for a network to have him on?
My response to those questions is simple: Twice-impeached former President Donald J. Trump lied countless times to the American people, most famously when he told us (and continues to tell us) that the 2020 presidential election was rigged and that he was the winner.
So what, you say? They are just words — and certainly not the first time a politician has lied to constituents.
I’ll tell you why this is different. Those lies persuaded thousands of his supporters to storm the U.S. Capitol on Jan. 6, 2021, violently attacking uniformed police officers and terrorizing members of Congress and their staff. I witnessed this assault firsthand as an officer with the Metropolitan Police Department, who like hundreds of MPD officers, responded to the U.S. Capitol Police Department’s calls for assistance after their officers were overrun by Trump’s mob. As a result of my efforts that day I was severely beaten, struck numerous times with a taser, and suffered a heart attack as well as a traumatic brain injury. One police officer died, and several others took their own lives in the wake of that barbaric day.
It is not just that Trump’s lies and political rhetoric sparked an uprising at our nation’s Capitol. Trump, as U.S. president, lied in an effort to defraud the American people and overturn a free and fair election in an attempt to remain in power. (See the January 6th Select Committee’s Report.) In doing so he betrayed every aspect of his oath to represent us as Americans. We no longer need to imagine what Trump is capable of. He has shown us that he is an authoritarian who will use any means at his disposal, including violence, to remain in power.
Putting him onstage, having him answer questions like a normal candidate who didn’t get people killed in the process of trying to end the democracy he’s attempting to once again run, normalizes what Trump did. It sends a message that attempting a coup is just part of the process; that accepting election results is a choice; and that there are no consequences, in the media or in politics or anywhere else, for rejecting them.
I have so much respect for Michael Fanone.
I didn’t watch; I won’t give CNN the clicks. But Aaron Rupar did the country a service last night. You can watch clips – if you can stand to see Trump or hear his voice – but I’ll summarize for you.
Debt ceiling: endorses the debt default
2024 Election: “I’ll accept the results if I thinks it’s fair.” Insurrection 2, coming soon!
Famous Sunday phone call find me 11,xxx votes: “I didn’t ask him for a thing on that call.”
Did he share classified document: “Not that I can think of.” Oh my god. And the dog ate his homework.
Family separation: “Obama made me do it.”
Federal abortion ban: What’s not to like, damn straight he’ll consider it.
Gun control: “Harden the schools” People need their guns more than children deserve to live.
Grab ’em by the pussy: “They let you. They let you.” So it’s their fault if you rape them, because they couldn’t stop you!
Pardon Jan 6 rioters?: “I’ll consider it.” “Sure, why not?” Not all of them, just “many of them”. The ones who pay him???
Here’s the first tweet in Rupar’s thread, in case you want to watch any of the clips.
WaterGirl
I am still furious this morning. What a piece of shit. Trump, as well as CNN.
Steeplejack
I posted my review downstairs.
justawriter
It struck me that Nixon lied to keep his criminal behavior a secret. Trump lies to make his criminal behavior more obvious. His fans now want and expect this.
WaterGirl
@Steeplejack: Maybe think about copying it here? Seems like you had a lot to say.
Baud
@Steeplejack: I just saw that. Thanks for the first-hand account. I hope your recovery will be swift.
Steeplejack
@Baud:
I deleted my original closing: “They don’t call it day drinking unless you get an early start. Be back later.”
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
Where has this doofus been for the past year? That’s not exactly a winning issue anymore. I mean, I guess it is for the GOP primary, but not the general
Steeplejack
(Reposted from downstairs.)
I watched the CNN Trump town hall last night, as well as some of CNN’s panel discussions afterwards (one group with Jake Tapper, another with Anderson Cooper). David Smith has a pretty good (free) article in The Guardian recapping the town hall.
I will say that I don’t think the audience was uniformly “roaring” in “thunderous” support of Trump. There was a lot of clapping and some yelling at various points in the event, usually at some predictably asinine Trump zinger or a meaningless slogan (“We need to protect our borders!”), but the crowd reaction shots showed quite a few people not clapping or yelling. I was surprised to see that.
It was definitely a Republican crowd. Some of the audience members were allowed to read questions for Trump after a brief intro, and a lot of them were “undecided voter (but voted for Trump in 2020).” 🙄 The questions were mostly bland, and of course Trump used them merely as a launching point into more word salad. I was surprised that no one asked him about Ron DeSantis. Trump did mention “DeSanctimonious” at one point and said basically that he was already finished. One little twerp brought up bump stocks in his question about “restoring gun rights that have already been taken away.” To my surprise, Trump said he agreed with the NRA that bump stocks were a nothingburger.
The panels afterwards featured a lot of backing and filling to do damage control (on behalf of CNN, not Trump), even by the Republican panelists—with the notable exception of Rep. Byron Donalds (R-FL). Complete Trump ass-kisser who still refused to answer the yes/no question of whether the 2020 election was fairly decided. Are white commenters here allowed to use the term “house Negro”? Asking for a friend. They all criticized Trump except for Donalds and one old white guy “Republican consultant” who basically said, “You may not have liked it, but he could win.” Oof.
My overall sense was that the CNN brass thought the town hall was a genius idea but the worker bees did not, based on how they handled the aftermath.
And, yes, Trump was predictably awful, awful, awful. I agree with commenters above who are dreading “news coverage” of his campaign.
ETA: I was struck by how much Trump talked about “making deals” and “doing deals” in every context—abortion, Ukraine, the debt ceiling, you name it. He really does see himself as some sort of fantastic deal-maker—against a lifetime of evidence.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Steeplejack:
Thanks for the first-hand account
Steeplejack
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
👍
Raoul Paste
@Steeplejack: I didn’t watch, so thanks for an accurate assessment. It’s just stupefying that, after all this time, his cult can’t see him for what he is.
Elizabelle
Not interested in Trump, or anything he said, but quite interested in the follow on consequences –if any — for CNN.
This was deplorable behavior by them. It’s almost funny that it ended up airing the day after Trump was found liable for sexual assault and defamation.
Do not forget the previous CNN CEO was forced to resign over an inappropriate relationship with an employee. Case of consenting adults, but she was in his chain of command.
So then, they go and devote a full hour to a sexual predator who has come out on the wrong side of a trial in court.
Math Guy
What I find so depressing is the number of people who still support him. There is no common ground.
Geminid
So when Trump was asked whether he shared any classified documents he replied, “Not that I can think of.”
I take that as a “Yes, and it was perfect.”
Elizabelle
Also interested if the Morning Joe crew had anything to say about CNN CEO Chris Licht’s complicity in this. Licht has a long history with Scarborough.
And he’s perhaps off due to the writer’s strike, but what does Stephen Colbert have to say about his former show runner and executive producer?
From wiki: you can see how Licht held to the ideals expressed in this early memo to CNN staffers:
He got rid of John Harwood and Brian Stelter.
Princess
Montenaro on NPR did a good job in the hourly news clip on it this morning. Basically: Trump was a lying liar who didn’t convince any of the swing voters he would need. Used the lie word, which they never did in 2016. Listed his very unpopular positions.
Baud
@Geminid:
“Oh stewardess, I speak MAGA.”
Jinchi
Let’s just not.
Steeplejack
@Jinchi:
Fine. I will note that a Black front-pager has used it several times.
gene108
@Raoul Paste:
They know exactly who he is and the admire him for it. Trump voters aren’t children. They’re all legal adults.
They admire the lying, the cheating on spouses, sexually assaulting women, trying to overthrow the government, separating migrant families, and so on.
Trump is the man they wish they could be one day.
OverTwistWillie
It was a leveraged deal and Discovery Warner is up to their eyeballs in debt.
Zaslav is there to slash traditional TV & Movie production budgets, and pay down that debt load by churning out reality TV.
I mean it’s a plan, and CNN morphing into a reality TV channel isn’t any different than “where are the videos?” era MTV, but there is a market saturation problem, and pivoting for an audience beyond John Malone might prove illusory.
JML
on the one hand, everything trump does is awful at all times and in all things. On the other, the more he dirties up the GOP brand, the more of them we can send packing. but as seen in 2016, it’s a scary form of chicken, because occasionally the ratfucker wins and then it gets ugly.
Elizabelle
For some truth and good writing:
Michael Fanone’s book is about half off at Amazon. Hardcover is $14.57. Starts out with a visit to Kevin McCarthy’s office, six months after the insurrection. Fanone recorded the conversation. All of McCarthy’s weasel words. Book is Hold the Line.
Not plugging Amazon, per se, but that’s a great price on a good book. The Kindle version is $14.99.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/1668007193?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details
Layer8Problem
My partner read me Bruni’s deep-thought maundering in the Times. I got more and more pissed off as asshole statement after asshole statement by TFG was relayed with a “look and see this silly man’s utterances, lies and stupidity aplenty!” delivery by Bruni. But TFG wasn’t allowed free rein, oh no. Kaitlan Collins “moderated heroically,” “. . . clearly and rightly encouraged to challenge every false claim that he made, and she did precisely that, demonstrating great knowledge and preternatural poise.” A regular Ed Murrow, that Collins.
As for CNN’s culpability in this exercise: “Its decision to give Trump this platform was widely attacked, but the network was correct to recognize that he is a relevant, potent political force who cannot be ignored and must be thoroughly vetted.” So CNN’s helping, y’see, with their “thorough vetting”, which is why Bruni’s compelled to tell us all about it. Right. Where CNN goes wrong? ” . . . where CNN went wrong was in the audience it assembled . . . .” That’s it. You see folks, we need to see this guy, good and hard, repeatedly. Sadly, he also comes with an audience that’s deplorable, what can you do, you know? Note to Bruni: we’ve already seen TFG and what he does and what he’s capable of doing.
Bruni goes on to opine regarding his likely opponent “I myself have observed that Biden often doesn’t seem as clear and focused as he did in the past . . .” and throws in a mention of “. . . the much-discussed poll by The Washington Post and ABC News . . .” for establishing that we’re in a horse race.
What should have been said? That this event should never have been set up in the first place, that that man should never have been given a platform, that Collins should never have been propped up to act as the journalist fig leaf for this spectacle with her “incisive hard-hitting” questions and “moderating”, and that the audience was hand-picked by a compliant news operation to make the show’s star happy.
My partner still thinks Bruni’s a liberal. Maybe in his head he is. As a journalist he’s useless. And now I’m pissed off and grumpy and my coffee’s gone cold.
Elizabelle
@Layer8Problem: Previous year’s Clinton Derangement at the FTF NY Times is now officially Biden Senility Watch.
I despise those fuckers. Bruni is part of the elite industrial complex.
Mike S. (Now with a Democratic Congressperson!)
I haven’t heard yet when CNN will give President Biden equal time before an appreciative Democratic audience*. I assume they have to since both he and shrump are declared candidates. Right?
*(I understand they will load the audience with “Undecided” voters, that usually vote republican, but who say they would maybe vote for a Democrat like Joe Manchin.)
Scout211
Another truth-teller who knows who and what she is talking about:
Mary L Trump
WaterGirl
@Steeplejack: Thanks for bringing that up from downstairs.
WaterGirl
@Raoul Paste: Even more stupefying is the fact that some of them like him for exactly what he is.
James E Powell
@Mike S. (Now with a Democratic Congressperson!):
Any town hall for Biden will feature a member of the military in uniform who will yell at him about Afghanistan.
Scout211
CNN boss Chris Licht loved how Trump’s town hall turned out, even though it was ‘uncomfortable’ hearing the audience cheering
Really, Chris Licht?
sdhays
@Geminid: Yeah, you know he sent a copy of nuclear secrets to every single member of his shitty resort if he can’t even bring himself to lie that it absolutely didn’t happen.
Jackie
@WaterGirl: I called it early yesterday: it was a CNN hosted MAGA Rally.
I didn’t watch, so didn’t give CNN any clicks. I hope they get low ratings during that hour!
WaterGirl
@Geminid: I took it as a “wink wink, nudge nudge, hell yes but even I am not dumb enough to say that out loud”.
Omnes Omnibus
@James E Powell: That, of course, would be a violation of the UCMJ.
zhena gogolia
@Scout211: love to see him spin Kristallnacht
sdhays
@Scout211:
Oh, for Pete’s sake! The reason “reporters” love Trump is that getting his “answers” on any given topic is the easiest thing in the world!
“If I lower the bar for my performance to the floor, I can just about clear it” isn’t worth congratulations, asshole.
ETA: (Directed at Licht, in case that wasn’t obvious!)
WaterGirl
@Jinchi: @Steeplejack:
re; “House Negro”
I think the person to check with on that is The Thin Black Duke, who uses the term fairly often. So he obviously finds it useful – what we don’t know is whether that would be seen as inappropriate / not helpful when used by white folks.
edit: I sent him an email, asking. I will report back when I get an answer.
Josie
@Elizabelle:
Another vote here for Fanone’s book. It is well worth reading, both for its unflinching honesty about the politics surrounding Jan. 6 and for an interesting look at the justice system and methods of policing currently in place.
Jackie
@Elizabelle: Watching recorded MJ right now and Scarborough is saying it was the stupidest thing CNN could have done. He is absolutely disgusted. The “good news?” A year’s worth of political ads for Biden.
Brachiator
@WaterGirl:
Yep. There is no reason for the media to provide Trump with a forum to spread his lies.
They are afraid to challenge him.
Post town hall fact checking is not sufficient.
The GOP leadership should be challenged. Why should they accept as a candidate someone who might declare the 2024 election illegitimate?
Jackie
@Scout211: I’m curious if CNN will give the other announced GQP candidates their own town hall hour. If I were them I’d demand equal air time.
gene108
@Brachiator:
He’s their best shot to win the presidency and winning is all that matters to them.
Geminid
@sdhays: The possibility that Trump showed these documents to others raises the stakes in this affair. Trump’s answer suggests that he knows he has been caught out, or will be. Perhaps Trump authorized one of his underlings to show the documents, and Jack Smith’s team is talking to that person.
Depending on what was shown and who it was shown it to, this could be an explosive development.
Ruckus
@WaterGirl:
Yes, yes he is.
But he’s been a piece of shit his entire life, this is nothing new. He has spent his entire entitled life being an entitled piece of shit. He stole millions from family members to began his entitled, shitty adulthood. He capped that entitled, shitty life off with being the worst president ever, an entitled, racist, piece of shit attempt at a being a human being. And like everything else in life he’s attempted, other than being a thief to his siblings he’s been far worse than a useless piece of shit. The only thing he’s ever accomplished is showing us that there it a rather large segment of humanity that is worthless in so many ways. Of which he is one of the more worthless.
Wanderer
In my humble opinion the only people who survived, with any dignity, last night’s horrific decision to display that speaker, his audience and CNN are the students who protested against the town hall. Well done to the protesters and thank you for your courage.
Betty Cracker
Stopped clocks, etc.
West of the Rockies
Things seem a bit bleak after the CNN nonsense, but everyone should remember the oncoming rushing trains barreling towards the orange orc: the Georgia legal peril, the Mar-a-Lardo legal conflagration, and the 1/6 DOJ investigation, all of which could be devastating.
Don’t lose optimism.
Scout211
The Calamaris, perhaps? They do have their own lawyers.
Geo Wilcox
Kaitlan Collins used to work for The Daily Caller so she wasn’t exactly a hostile interviewer. If CNN was going to do this right, it should have had an older, white male, go toe to toe with Trump not a pretty female reporter who is biased to the right.
Raoul Paste
@gene108: I don’t think we can generalise about Trump’s cult. Sure, there are some who have been conditioned to be full of anger and will believe any nonsense about democratic paedophile baby killers.. OTOH. my wife, who does home healthcare, has spoken to little old ladies who can’t understand why people are so mean to that nice man..
different-church-lady
@Raoul Paste: The cult can see him for who he is. They’re in the cult because they like it.
Baud
@Layer8Problem:
I myself have observed that Bruni is a douchebag.
rikyrah
Officer,
Call those lowlife muthaphuckas at CNN OUT!
rikyrah
We have seen this movie. It does not end well.
Once again, we have folks not asking CAN they do this.
But, they need to be asking….SHOULD they do this.
My lips are so pursed just reading this.
philip lewis (@Phil_Lewis_) tweeted at 11:36 AM on Wed, May 10, 2023:
British officials have confirmed the first-ever births of babies using DNA from three different people https://t.co/T0s1JdPL30
(https://twitter.com/Phil_Lewis_/status/1656337510996275200?t=fMVjOuttl9exarRN0gBdlg&s=03)
Eunicecycle
@Geo Wilcox: I also thought it should have been a man, because he obviously had no respect AT ALL for women. I’m a full-fledged liberal woman but in this case a man MIGHT have been more effective. Not a given, but Collins did have that disadvantage going in.
stacib
@Steeplejack: Man, thank you for asking before charging right in. :-) Poison in a perfume bottle is still poison. I’m not crazy about that particular front pager using it either, but he’ll do him. I agree with Jinchi – let’s just not
Oh yeah, and thank you for the first-hand account. I thought about watching just for the giggles, but just couldn’t listen to that dude for more than a couple seconds at a time.
Also, isn’t CNN, along with all the other networks choose not to air prime time Biden’s speech a few months ago?
different-church-lady
@Princess: The taboo about calling Trump a liar staight-up seems to have fallen at many outlets.
Ruckus
@Steeplejack:
He really does see himself as some sort of fantastic deal-maker—against a lifetime of evidence.
One can not look like something they are not if they don’t lie, cheat and steal on a constant basis. Oh and act like they never do exactly that.
Steeplejack
@Layer8Problem:
Kaitlan Collins tried to do a good job, but she was bringing a squirt gun to a firehose fight. It wasn’t the heroic success that Bruni claims.
Baud
@West of the Rockies:
God, I hope we aren’t so weak that a CNN town hall throws us off our game.
Bruce K in ATH-GR
@West of the Rockies: Not to mention the already-in-progress hush-money fraud case for which Trump has already been arrested.
You know, the actual, literal, criminal fucking conspiracy.
Jackie
In other news, I’m glad to see some FAUX hosts beginning to push back against MAGAt James Comer’s accusations that President Biden profited from foreign monies! I saw another article yesterday – different host – also push back while interviewing Comer, but thought it was an isolated event.
“Fox News host Steve Doocy pushed back against Rep. James Comer (R-KY) after the powerful Oversight Committee chairman claimed President Joe Biden and his family were engaged in an influence-peddling scheme.”
https://www.rawstory.com/james-comer-steve-doocy/
Frankensteinbeck
@gene108:
I disagree. GOP leadership doesn’t want Trump. They’ve made enough noises about it. There’s no one else. Nobody is running except DeSantis, who proved himself a drizzly cow flop at the first sign of competition. Who else has declared? I think Haley, or did she drop out? But they’re not running. They’re lurking in the background getting zero publicity. Trump is winning because the only other names on the ballet are “That pathetic loser DeSantis” and “Who?” Literally by default, so there’s nothing for the GOP leadership to do.
WaterGirl
@Raoul Paste: The mind boggles. They are saying that about Trump, not Biden?
jonas
@zhena gogolia: “Hey, you may not have liked seeing all the businesses and synagogues burning, but you have to admit that the people in the street that night were engaged and making their voices heard!”
Bruce K in ATH-GR
@Baud: We’ve been trained over the TFG campaigns and maladministration to expect disaster. It’s a bad habit to get into and a tough habit to break.
geg6
@Elizabelle:
I caught a little Morning Joe this morning and, gotta give him credit, Scarborough was scathing toward Cheetolini and CNN equally. Pretty worked up about it.
Ruckus
@Raoul Paste:
It’s just stupefying that, after all this time, his cult can’t see him for what he is.
That is part of it being a cult. They don’t want to see him for what he is, they want to see him as what they want to be, wealthy, racist assholes. Most of them have parts 2 and 3 down pat.
geg6
@Layer8Problem:
This is what you get when the FTFNYT decides to make their restaurant critic a political columnist. What a rag that paper is.
Steeplejack
@WaterGirl:
I’ll be interested to see what he says. In general, I’m not in favor of marking off language as okay for some but not for others. If a term is offensive, it shouldn’t be used by anybody.
different-church-lady
@Scout211: We already had all of Trump’s answers. He didn’t say a single fucking thing he hasn’t already said.
Betty Cracker
A report from Forward via Insider:
I can’t imagine how infuriating it must be for the liberal justices, working with that bunch of cheesy grifters. Oh wait, yeah I can — I used to work for an insurance company. ;-)
Elizabelle
@geg6: That’s good to hear.
Geminid
@Scout211: The Calamaris present an interesting dynamic. I suspect both father and son would flip on Trump to protect each other.
different-church-lady
@Geo Wilcox: Don’t be stupid: older male reporters are there to attack female democrats and sexually harass the staff.
rikyrah
Kenny BooYah!![]()
(@KwikWarren) tweeted at 11:50 AM on Wed, May 10, 2023:
CNN is engineering this “so-called” town hall in a way that gives trump a built-in platform of sympathy and support. CNN is giving trump a nationally televised rally/pity party. I wouldn’t be surprised if the black man at every trump rally is seated somewhere up front. Shameful.
(https://twitter.com/KwikWarren/status/1656341069234044942?t=1G64WoLYn6jThCB27zTbog&s=03)
Scout211
@Eunicecycle:
I would love to know what Trump’s team demanded to agree to appear. I don’t disagree with you about Trump’s disrespect for women, but my hunch is that Trump may have agreed that she be the moderator for that very reason. He is confident around women because he feels superior. And if he doesn’t like what she says, he calls her a name, as he did last night.
Trump is a bully and bullies do not put themselves in situations with opponents that they respect. I would be surprised if he would agree to a male moderator.
The fact that she used to work for The Daily Caller may have also been a factor.
But to me, the biggest mistake was turning it into a
rallytown hall. It was destined to be just what it was by inviting the audience to therallytown hall.JPL
@Steeplejack: You are amazing. I streamed the first seventeen minutes and shut it down.
Ruckus
@WaterGirl:
Even more stupefying is the fact that some of them like him for exactly what he is.
Some of them? That some is doing a hell of a lot of work.
It should have read: Even more stupefying is the fact that they like him for exactly what he is.
He is one of them, a “successful” one of them. He’s supposedly rich, he’s absolutely a racist POS, and he’s proud of all of it. The fact that he hates them less than he hates the same people they do never enters their minds. Because he sells them the shit they want to hear.
RaflW
Gonna outsource my thoughts to Brynn Tannehill because she’s disturbingly correct (lightly edited from the original tweets). And FTR, I do not want to get into some terrible endlesslysore (if you will) thing bashing Christianity.
Brynn’s critique is specific and, I think, right on about right wing American Christianity and their instrumentality in Trumpism. And her warning near the end is chillingly clear (and could be a trigger for trans folk, so please proceed with care).
2020 and the 2022 mid-terms have bought us time, but the darkest days for our democracy may lay ahead. My main takeway from last night is how much we have yet to do to avert catastrophe.
— —
“A ton of ink has already been spilled on Trump and CNN. Obviously it was Trump at his most awful. And obviously CNN did our country a disservice by hosting what was effectively a Trump rally. But, there’s an angle that’s missing from the discussion.
Namely, the audience. These were all Trump supporters. Republicans and independents who were supporters of the former President. Clinton called them a “basket of deplorables” in 2016, and they got offended.
Last night was a reminder she was right.
They laughed and cheered as Trump mocked the woman he was found liable for sexually assaulting. He was cheered when he called “moderator” Kaitlan Collins “a nasty woman.” They eagerly devoured the myriad of lies he told about everything.
It was a Gish Gallop, right down to claiming he would end the war in Ukraine in 24 hours without giving details. (Hint: there’s no way the US could do that, even if we cut off aid immediately. Ukraine would keep fighting and looking for alternate suppliers of arms.)
And they believe it all. They LOVE it all.
The cruelty is the point. They love Trump and Putin and Orban. They love Jesus too, and have claimed all of American Christianity for their own. They’ve destroyed its reputation in the process.
For most decent people, who don’t laugh at people for being raped, seeing someone wearing a cross is a big warning sign: this person is not safe. This person is not kind. This person does not even vaguely live in the same reality the rest of us do.
And yes, this thread will get a lot of “not all Christians” messages here. But these folks are at the spearhead of a fascist movement that revels in cruelty, domination, and abuse of power.
Above all else, last night was a reminder of what America under Trump was, and will be again if we put him back in office. Cruel, theocratic, vulgar, misogynistic, unmoored from reality, ignorant, immune to evidence, and racist.
These are not good people, even if they believe their religious beliefs make them inherently good. This is a movement centered on grievances and vengeance against enemies of the herrenvolk. What we saw are the true believers Milton Mayer [link not in original thread -R] wrote about.
Even if [this thread] goes viral, it still isn’t enough. But for those that do read it, I hope it reminds you that what is coming is dark beyond all belief. They want vengeance on those they believe they have tolerated for too long. There is no bottom: there is no point at which his supporters will say, “No, we’re going too far, this is wrong.” These are people with an axe to grind, and without empathy for anyone who seen as an enemy.
If a 2nd Trump administration [began] putting trans people through tree shredders, his supporters would demand that they be dipped in lemon juice first. Last night was a chilling reminder not only can it happen here, it WILL happen here if we get a second Trump term.
p.s.: The best Christian ambassadors (to me) have always been the ones who don’t proclaim it loudly or insist that people must share their faith exactly as they do. The examples they set for decency, kindness, and empathy were their sales pitch. (See: Fred Rogers)”
— —
They want vengeance on those they believe they have tolerated for too long. There is no bottom.
That’s what last night showed us.
rikyrah
I loved Barbara Jean Spencer. This one hurts. I can’t remember a General Hospital without Bobbie Spencer.![]()
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RIP
Frank Valentini (@valentinifrank) tweeted at 9:52 PM on Wed, May 10, 2023:
On behalf of our @GeneralHospital family, I am heartbroken to announce the passing of our beloved @JackieZeman. Just like her character, the legendary Bobbie Spencer, she was a bright light and true professional that brought so much positive energy with her to work. https://t.co/DxGdjYavab
(https://twitter.com/valentinifrank/status/1656492445914529793?t=dfkLvVZtMP4JdzT4qNweDg&s=03)
cain
@WaterGirl: As I understand it – Negro isn’t a racist term but isn’t favorably used by anyone as it is antiquated or used in literary terms. It might be difficult to argue it is racist when there are organizations who have that term in their organizational name eg United Negro College Fund.
Miss Bianca
@Scout211: OMG, when I read something like this, I realize how much I would like to personally defenestrate this asshole from his corner suite window. “A large swath of America agrees that it’s for the good of the country!”
JPL
@Jackie: If CNN agreed to additional town halls with other candidates, it’s doubtful that they will have hand picked cheerleaders in he audience.
Frankensteinbeck
@Steeplejack:
I don’t know. Context is really, really, really important. Who is saying something is context. The words “free speech” have drastically different meanings and should be reacted to differently if the speakers are Biden, the ACLU, and Elon Musk. There are opinions I would be reluctant to express about minority feelings because I don’t have their lived experience. Stuff like “I can use this term because I am rejecting them from my group,” is relevant. I also think part of listening to minorities is accepting what they say is or isn’t offensive.
rikyrah
Rolling Stone Politics (@RSPolitics) tweeted at 2:49 PM on Wed, May 10, 2023:
Tommy Tuberville says Biden is “destroying” the military by trying to root out “white extremists” and “white nationalists”
https://t.co/s9nRnoiFJ1
(https://twitter.com/RSPolitics/status/1656385927017627648?s=02)
cain
@Jackie: I suspect after losing nearly a billion dollars pushing a false claim – they might be a bit hesitant.
cain
If it isn’t school systems, it’s the fucking ballet now.. goddam it.
Miss Bianca
@jonas: yep, you nailed it!
Ruckus
@Raoul Paste:
The definition of a cult, one sees what they want to see, not what is in front of them. And SFB plays them like everything/everyone he’s ever met. He sells them what they want, which in this case is racism, which he has in an overabundance. For him it is the easiest sell on the planet, he gets to be paid to be himself.
Frankensteinbeck
@cain:
What can I say, if you see Trump in a tutu and tights you’ll never forget it.
JPL
@rikyrah: I watched that show when my sons were babies. They are in their forties.
trollhattan
BBC World Service ran extensive (audio) clips of that Trump…thing and made it known the place was packed with Trump supporters as per his stipulation. So of course they cheered his standard schtick, including ending support for Ukraine, blowing up the debt ceiling, etc. etc.
Enough has been said already about CNN’s role here as enabler–if they’re going to give him the platform AND audience of his choice then they’re supporting his presidential run. Full stop.
An audience of Americans would have let him know what they think of him, which is why he will never, ever give us the opportunity.
Thanks, CNN, for being the shine boy. You worthless shitbags.
Geminid
@Frankensteinbeck: Some Republicans are becoming fatalistic about a Trump nomination. One told Politico’s Jonathan Martin:
Such a strategy could involve steering resources from Trump challengers towards Senate and House candidates.
*from the article “Is Trump inevitable? Some in the GOP are Starting to Wonder” Politico April 27, 2023
RedDirtGirl
@Geo Wilcox: Apparently when she was at the Daily Caller (!) back in 2015 she published a piece ranking “sexy” Syrian refugees. The angle was “Just try to get Governors to refuse asylum to these hotties”…
oldgold
I am not sure that the criticism of the moderator is fully justified. She was not the problem. The problem was the format. It was asinine on steroids.
Under the best of circumstances, the townhall format is extremely problematic. Add in a malignant narcissist as the subject and 400 of his proudly ignorant sycophants as the “town,” and it is going to be an unmitigated disaster regardless of who the moderator is.
Betty Cracker
@JPL: I remember watching that soap with my mom. She let me skip school to watch Luke and Laura’s wedding!
Frankensteinbeck
@oldgold:
Town hall means the audience supplies the questions, doesn’t it? So they’re actually telling Trump what they want to hear? I can’t imagine a more friendly setup.
Jackie
@Geo Wilcox: Collins DID get the coveted title of *NASTY* from TFG!😂
Sean
@West of the Rockies:
The reality is, Trump is going to be the GOP nominee, nothing coming out of any of these investigations will stop that. Even if convicted, he could still win the presidency, there is no actual law that would prevent it. There is a non-trivial chance the man can win again, and no probe or special prosecutor is going to save us from that. We’re going to have to do that ourselves next November. I hope whatever coalition we have is up for it, because CNN, the NYT, “No Labels” and the rest are going to do everything they can to boost Trump and paint Biden as near death and wasting away. They are already doing it daily. The polling crunches we saw recently are born out of that manufactured narrative. Jack Smith and Fani Willis aren’t going to stop that.
Miss Bianca
@Geminid: “Rebuild the neighborhood”? Jesus Christ – what “neighborhood” are they talking about? The American body politic? These fuckers are the ones who DESTROYED that “neighborhood” in the first place! Sure, Trump may have torched the remains, but they handed him the box of matches.
Or is the “neighborhood” the Republican Party? Again – that is ON THEM. So, sure – go ahead and hide in the basement, you worthless wankers. With any hope, the house caves in on you entirely and you never emerge again.
(My, I’m feeling bloody-minded this morning!)
trollhattan
@Jackie: Did he throw in “Not my type, believe me” for good measure?
It’s like Mussolini survived the war and moved to the US. Except Mussolini dressed better.
RaflW
In more hopeful news, a new poll from YouGov & The Economist shows that Joe Biden’s approval has risen to 50%. The same poll showed Biden’s approval rating at 39% last June and has shown steady improvement ever since.
YouGov/Economist: President Biden Job Approval Trends (RVs)
MAY 9, 2023:
• Approve — 50%
• Disapprove — 47%
Nov. 1, 2022:
• Approve — 45%
• Disapprove — 52%
June 25, 2022:
• Approve — 39%
• Disapprove — 56%
JAFD
@cain:
I was born in 1950, and when I was young, in the ’50’s and ’60’s, “Negro” was the ‘polite’ or even ‘politically correct’ word to use for ‘those people with permanent suntans’. But language changes, I’d hesitate using it today.
‘In-group criticism’ – If I called someone ‘a dumb Polack’, would have excuse that half my ancestors came from Warsaw and Krakow, and I’ve often acted unintelligently. Might take umbrage if someone else used that phrase.
Jackie
@JPL: True, but isn’t there a rule that ALL candidates be given equal airtime? Or is that another rule tossed out in the era of MAGA?
Brachiator
@gene108:
RE: The GOP leadership should be challenged. Why should they accept as a candidate someone who might declare the 2024 election illegitimate?
Actually, I think their best shot is to cheat and try to steal the election using state legislatures and the Supreme Court.
schrodingers_cat
In other disappointing news Biden is going to host Modi for a state dinner this June, IIRC
JPL
@Miss Bianca: Some of us don’t have basements to hide in. It’s going to be a rocky few months.
BeautifulPlumage
@oldgold: Kara Swisher wrote a Twitter thread about how to interview TFG without getting railroaded like Kaitlyn was.
https://twitter.com/karaswisher/status/1656485981095092225?cxt=HHwWgoCz6aXOgv0tAAAA
schrodingers_cat
@BeautifulPlumage: Elon Musk fangirl says what?
JPL
@Jackie: I remember CNN covering an empty podium rather than one of Hillary’s events. CNN the NYTimes for video coverage for politics.
gvg
@Eunicecycle: I think it should be a very large muscular man who is also very smart and fast speaking. I don’t know who that is, but I do think a guy that looms over Trump would help.
would also be funny to see the reactions of his “supporters”. He probably would not agree up front as he likes a freindly interview, you’d have to ambush him with someone getting sick at the last minute!
RaflW
@Geminid: Saw a piece yesterday (can’t remember which outlet) that McConnell is crystal clear that Trump will not steer his support for Senate challengers in ’24. Mitch got the message loud and clear that the Walkers & Ozs of MAGA land won’t get his money or connections in any coming sen. primaries.
The Senate map looks bad for Dems. I’m glad DiFi is back, we need to fill the federal bench as best we can in the next year+, and absolutely bust ass on US House races (and state legislatures!).
Matt McIrvin
@RaflW: Given other polling I have a hard time believing those fluctuations are real, as nice as they look. My impression is that Biden’s overall approval just does not change that much up or down.
BeautifulPlumage
@schrodingers_cat: oh, she’s well over her previous infatuation and now is one of Melon’s most insightful critics. But I get what you’re saying – she helped build his mystique.
BeautifulPlumage
@gvg: I was also thinking it would have to be a last-minute switch or he wouldn’t agree.
Omnes Omnibus
@BeautifulPlumage: Isn’t Swisher the tech writer who techsplains Elon Musk?
Elizabelle
@Josie: My copy arrives tomorrow. Look forward to reading what Fanone has to say. I think zhena may have ordered a copy too.
Elizabelle
@Omnes Omnibus: the very one
Brachiator
@BeautifulPlumage:
Some of her comments are reasonable.
CNN should never have given Trump a forum.
Sure Lurkalot
The people in that audience were in part created by the abdication of our media to inform, call lies lies and relentlessly seek the truth. The clip of Biden owning the reporter in the morning thread should be Exhibit A for how not to journalism. If you ask a question about a subject you’ve spent zero time researching, then you deserve to be left hemming and hawing, though Joe nicely said he didn’t mean it as the gotcha it actually was Will the reporter learn? Eight ball says outlook is cloudy.
cain
@Brachiator: Given the reactions – I think CNN has accomplished its goals. MAGA who is willing to shell out money to hear what they want vs the rest of us is going to help make CNN profitable
I’m reminded about the first time spam started – it was on USENET I believe and some lawyer did some bullshit and there was widespread condemnation across the planet. He just laughed and every other business saw that as a success and so spam became a thing.
zhena gogolia
@WaterGirl: White people shouldn’t use it.
Mimi haha
I want all the Trumps and everyone at CNN to die.
I’d cancel cable but I never bought it.
rikyrah
@RaflW:
EVERYTHING YOU WRITE IS TRUE.
ABSOLUTELY ON POINT.
THERE IS NO MIDDLE GROUND
zhena gogolia
@Eunicecycle: It was very discomfiting to see her in her sleek anchor uniform looking on while he spewed venom about E. Jean Carroll. Disgusting.
zhena gogolia
@jonas: “They’re a substantial percentage of the population!”
zhena gogolia
@geg6: He wasn’t even a good restaurant critic.
zhena gogolia
@rikyrah: I loved her.
Eunicecycle
@Scout211: you’re probably right, that one of the conditions was Collins doing the interview. And having handpicked registered Republicans that had voted for Trump before.
cain
It’s not just that – those supporters are even more egged on because they are in the “lion’s den” and so they are going to be even more loud and obnoxious because they probably all hate CNN.
zhena gogolia
@Eunicecycle: He enjoyed dominating the pretty young woman. Disgusting.
UncleEbeneezer
@Steeplejack: I wouldn’t use that expression if you are white. The problem is that it can also be the kind of thing that a racist would say. So when a Black/PoC hears/sees it from you they have no way of knowing and creates a really uncomfortable moment for them. White people using terms like that is usually lamented as being “getting a little too familiar” and sets off alarm bells for the PoC who hear it. A better way is to just note that the person you are referring to is a Black person who routinely peddles anti-Blackness. That gets the same point across, even more clearly, but doesn’t risk pissing off the PoC you want to be an ally to. At least, that’s been my personal experience.
The Moar You Know
@Jackie: Never was such a thing. It’s a good idea though.
cain
@JAFD: Agreed – some terms can only be used in the in-group. I would never use ‘negro’ in any conversation the weight of history is too much upon it. I’ll stick to terms that community believes I should use.
Another Scott
@Elizabelle: Thanks for the pointer.
Cheers,
Scott.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@zhena gogolia: Agreed. The term deliberately invokes slavery. I get that’s the purpose; but for us pale folk, find another term.
A YouTube I watch favors the term “pick-mes” as in “Pick me, I’d like to sell my soul for money.” See Candace Owens.
BeautifulPlumage
@Omnes Omnibus: not since his Twitter debacle. She’s been calling him out during podcast interviews.
cain
That’s how it should be – the press have grown lazy with Trump since you can endlessly get soundbites.
In this case, you going to ask questions you better be familiar with the subject matter or you’re going to look the fool. You should bring your A game if you’re going to question the President of the United States. It’s too bad that of late the quality of the GOP presidents is at the muck level.
schrodingers_cat
@zhena gogolia: Neither should anyone who is not black
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
Makes sense the FTFNYT would put him on political commentary, where they don’t value edifying content.
schrodingers_cat
@zhena gogolia: Isn’t she a Tucker Carlson protégé? She could have said no if she had integrity.
BeautifulPlumage
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation: this:
“The term deliberately invokes slavery.”
Good, succinct description.
Chris Johnson
@schrodingers_cat: Wait. what? To me ‘Tucker Carlson protege’ means ‘Russia’. Is that what got CNN to do this?
Another Scott
https://mastodon.social/@Popehat/110350646302570796
As long as CNN gets eyeballs and clicks and engagement and buzz for what they put up, they’ll keep doing it.
“We had to livestream our embedded reporter with the arsonist burning down the orphanage with kids with disabilities inside because people are interested in it…”
:-/
Cheers,
Scott.
schrodingers_cat
@Chris Johnson: She got her start at Tucker Carlson’s Daily Caller
Jackie
@RaflW: That’s good news, but I don’t think Biden polls mean much to voters. His numbers were low at the ‘22 Midterms – and that didn’t matter. Dobbs mattered. The ‘24 Presidential Election will be about pro democracy, pro women’s health, pro gun reform, pro Woke, pro voting rights and anti-MAGA.
emmyelle
That was horrifying. I could not, would not even watch the video clips.
Fuck CNN. I am sorry. Fuck them.
UncleEbeneezer
@Steeplejack: That’s the reality though. People in marginalized groups can use offensive terms for their identity to reclaim them or for sarcasm. People outside that group can’t do that. Those words aren’t for us to reclaim since they don’t refer to us. Black People can use the n-word, and many do, White People can’t. Women can say “b*tch” if they want to, men can’t. LGBTQ people can use various LGBTQ-phobic slurs as terms of humor and even affection, Straight People can’t. It’s really not a big deal. It’s about the tiniest social restriction on speech imaginable and really not something to even worry about. A world where out-group members refrain from using epithets and slurs (in any context) is much better than one where they feel entitled to. The latter is the world that MAGAts and Nazis are fighting to make possible. That alone should be all the reason for us to oppose it.
James E Powell
@Omnes Omnibus:
Because the uniform? Active duty? I don’t know UCMJ. Okay then a veteran in civilian clothes. I’m recalling the guy who yelled at Hillary Clinton about emails at the Matt Lauer commander in chief thing.
Or maybe the mother of one the thirteen killed at the end? The only deaths in the Afghanistan invasion & occupation that are 100% the fault of the president.
Rs are going to be hammering the Afghanistan withdrawal.
Feathers
@Steeplejack: The problem with that is it means demanding minoritized, in this case Black, people not use language of their own choosing in describing their oppression.
For everyone else, it means respecting what others have said they find offensive. Personally, there is a difference between what I’ll say and what I write. Why? When I write, people don’t know me or why I’ve chosen that language. In person, I know who my specific audience is and can also use vocal inflection to make my point clear.
eclare
@Elizabelle:
Great name for it, Biden Senility Watch.
WaterGirl
@cain: I’m not concerned about Negro. I am asking about “House Negro”, which has a very specific meaning.
Jackie
@gvg: Michael Cohen immediately sprang to mind!😂
James E Powell
@Frankensteinbeck:
My bet is that Romney, purely out of a sense of duty, will volunteer to save America from President Biden & his socialist agenda.
rikyrah
This anti-immigrant bill is going to hit Florida hard and fast.
The undocumented aren’t sticking around for DeathSantis to even sign it.
Let the crops rot.
Let them do the construction the best they can.
And, let’s not even start on the restaurant industry.
Some have said that they will just use prison labor.
Will remind folks that Alabama passed a similar law a few years ago, and tried the prison labor solution.
Didn’t work.
Oh well.
Just in time for DeathSantis to announce…the Florida economy craters.
Cacti
Well at least we can count on Merrick Garland to hold him to account.
Wait, no, he’s been a giant chicken shit.
WaterGirl
@Betty Cracker: That’s awesome!
I remember having to write a letter to my mom explaining why wanting to watch some particular movie (at this point I have no idea what movie it was) was worthy of making an exception to my normal bedtime!
WaterGirl
@schrodingers_cat: Keep your enemies closer?
UncleEbeneezer
What about
Black-On-BlackWhite-On-White Crime??? From a great thread about disingenuous, racist crime stat meme that’s been going around (thanks to the asshole that owns Twitter):The Thin Black Duke
Regarding “house negro”, here’s my two cents: the phrase doesn’t hit white people the same way it reverberates with black people. White people can’t comprehend the sense of betrayal we feel when trying to make sense of race traitors like Thomas. It’s why I try not to use the term “kapo” when ranting about, let’s say, Stephen Miller with my wife, who happens to be Jewish.
RaflW
@Matt McIrvin: 538 aggregate polling data on Biden’s approval bottomed out in July of ’22 round 37.5% approve / 57.2% dis.
Aggregate now is around 42.5% approve / 52.4% dis. So the Economist polls aren’t that wildly off.
Jackie
@RaflW: That didn’t do Turtle any good last time. The GQP are already pushing for their favorites into the primaries. See Kari Lake as just one example at the top of my head.
Omnes Omnibus
@James E Powell: Yes, it is the specifically the wearing the uniform, but any any partisan political actions beyond a bumper sticker are potentially subject to adverse action.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@Omnes Omnibus: LIke MAGAts care about regulations. The rules are there to protect them and impede others, or so the thinking goes.
UncleEbeneezer
@Feathers:
Exactly. It’s quite simple actually. Listen to the people in the community and just defer to them.
Omnes Omnibus
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation: They may FAFO.
WaterGirl
@The Thin Black Duke: I think i can comprehend it, but I can’t know it, viscerally, or a feel the sense of betrayal like a kick in the teeth/gut/head. Though I do feel disgust because I can see what he is.
I can appreciate your use of the term for Thomas (for example) because it conveys the absolute disgust and sense of betrayal and emotion.
The question I still have is, if I used it or Steeplejack or someone who is not black uses it, is that offensive?
The Lodger
@Steeplejack: My personal rule is since white folks like us didn’t pay for “house negro” and other racially charged terms in the way Black people have, we don’t own them and shouldn’t use them.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@Omnes Omnibus: Let’s just make sure their God-emporer doesn’t get reinstated to protect them from having to find out.
cain
@WaterGirl:
Oh – yeah that is a slur. Usually between black folks.
zhena gogolia
@UncleEbeneezer: Well put. You can make the same point without the epithet.
zhena gogolia
@schrodingers_cat: Right — all this about “It was an impossible task!” Then just say no.
cain
@rikyrah: DeSantis will hide all the stats like he did with Covid. He’s going to be creating bill after bill to hide and obfuscate everything and then use the police to shut everyone up.
It’s not going to work because eventually it’s going to affect rich people and on the street MAGA people. He won’t be able to shut up those people.
zhena gogolia
@emmyelle: I started watching Aaron Rupar’s clips but I got nauseated. I just read the summaries.
As others have said, it was the audience’s approval that made me sick, not so much asshole’s words.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@UncleEbeneezer: Exactly. It’s quite simple actually. Listen to the people in the community and just defer to them.
Beyond that know your audience. Even if something flies in your social circle*, it may not be OK elsewhere. Also, too; on the internet, your audience is everyone, so you have to consider how literally anyone might feel.
*I have a very mixed social circle and I love adopting new language and cultural markers from my life around me. Still, there is certain language my friends use that I would not. This is not a problem for me.
Once, after noticing such language entering my internal monologue, I asked a friend how he’d feel if I let the bad word slip, you know the one. He told me I get one pass, and that would depend on proper usage. Point is don’t do it.
eclare
@Betty Cracker:
A lot of my friends in middle school skipped that day, too!
Geminid
@Miss Bianca: I think that when he said “rebuild thee neighborhood” the guy was talking about the Republican party. J. Martin described him “….As a shrewd Republican strategist, and no Never Trumper, put it to me recently.’We’re going to have to go down into the basement….”
This sounds like a Karl Rove type who is professionally and ideologically committed to the party for the long run. Setting aside questions of morality or civic responsibility, he describes a rational strategy: since the primaries are not a hill worth dying on, better to hunker down and do damage control, maybe salvage some Senate and House races now and look to to 2025 to begin rebuilding the party.
There’s another angle to this “hunker down” strategy: what if Trump wins? Then this guy can come out of the basement and say, “Whew! That was a close call, but I knew Trump could do it! I’m ready to help Make the Neighborhood Great Again.”
UncleEbeneezer
@cain: Another thing is even if people don’t think you’re using it to be racist (which is by no means guaranteed or even expected), they will definitely think you are extremely out of touch and haven’t been paying attention for the last several decades. You end up looking like Abe Simpson yelling at clouds. And that’s the best-case scenario, lol!
RaflW
@The Thin Black Duke: Decades ago I had a couple of painful conversations with straight friends who heard me say ‘fag’ about my friends (or me), or the gay community. There was even a gay bar / entertainment weekly in Austin then called the Fag Rag.
“You say it, why can’t I?” they said, slightly betrayed. I had to craft some lessons on the fly on how it is taking back the power when a gay person says it (though it can also be hurtful and homophobicaly wielded by gay people about gay people – context still matters even among us). Sure, they could say “Did you see that funny column in the Fag Rag?” But if they said “Ralf, you big fag, how are you?”* that wasn’t ok.
*Yes, a cishet friend once greeted my thusly! He genuniely meant no harm, so I wasn’t so much offended as just “Hey, Brit, maybe not the best hello.”
I also find that as I’ve gotten older and my friends less radical, that I don’t use the term fag any more either.
The Thin Black Duke
@WaterGirl: Not to me. But “self-loathing token in service to his massah” works too, even though it doesn’t fit on a bumper sticker.
RR_Mikey
@Steeplejack: it is not yours to use. Try to remember that, especially in polite company.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
Balloon Juice isn’t especially polite. Still don’t do it.
Omnes Omnibus
@RaflW: I tend to think that, if I need to ask whether is okay to use a term, it is generally best to avoid using it.
NotMax
@RaflW
Still kosher to use it when warbling that kit bag song.
;)
raven
@The Thin Black Duke: It’s not really “house negro” is it?
UncleEbeneezer
@RaflW: There’s always that possibility that you will think “wait, how exactly does he mean it? Is my friend being low-key homophobic?” And feel discomfort, hurt, triggered etc. A good question to pose to friends/allies who are outside of the group: why would they want to risk even the slight possibility of putting you in that situation in the first place? So much simpler for them to just avoided any loaded/potentially-problematic terms.
rikyrah
@The Thin Black Duke:
Everything that Sambo has is because of Thurgood Marshall.
EVERYTHING.
EVERY CHANCE
EVERY OPPORTUNITY
EVERYTHING
And, then, for him to pretend that he didn’t get those opportunities because of Marshall and his generation..
And, then SPIT ON THEM AS HE PULLED UP THE LADDER BEHIND HIMSELF.
Rage doesn’t even begin to measure it.
rikyrah
@cain:
The crops will rot.
The price of food will go up.
Those construction sites will go belly up because nobody’s there to finish them..there’s loans attached to all those building sites…and they will come due.
I mean, this isn’t even gradual.
I don’t doubt that he thought the undocumented would stick around to get arrested and thrown in to for-profit prisons.
But, they have just ghosted. They are GONE. Nobody to arrest.
Paul in KY
@Ruckus: I guess that’s his only saving grace: When someone displays his name/whatever, I immediately know they are an asshole POS.
rikyrah
@zhena gogolia:
Our Kay said late 2016/early 2017 something that never left me:
The voters for Trump showed THEIR LACK OF CHARACTER when they voted for him.
Not his.
THEIRS.
geg6
@zhena gogolia:
Very, very true. Worst one I remember them ever having.
Paul in KY
@jonas: ‘”I’ve never even heard of that Rohm guy…”
MisterDancer
If I may? As a Black Front Pager who doesn’t use this term, this thread underlines why, very well.
Offensive isn’t a Yes/No switch in a lot of cases. You need to judge your audience (direct and potential) if you’re going to use words outside your Lived Experience, esp. of dealing with prejudice and bigotry. It’s similar to Code Switching or, for people in the UK, choosing to use Received Pronunciation in the right circumstances, only with (potentially) higher stakes.
In one of my first posts here, someone critiqued my use of a term, saying it could be read in a homophobic way. I…just changed it, because that wasn’t my intent and that’s not my space. Churning up a fight over “is it really homophobic?” didn’t make any of the points I was trying to make any clearer, and there were ways to say what I wanted to say without overloading the dialogue, as it were.
You don’t avoid these terms just because their use can derive offense, in other words — at least, to me. You do so because there are oftentimes better, more clear ways to make your opinion known, and it’s almost always better to use those, than to navigate the complexities of “am I ‘allowed’ to use Term X?”
That’s what I recommend people focus on; it’s certainly what I strive to do.
For the record: it’s not a term I prefer personally, just as I don’t tend to use the N word. I will look askance at someone I know is outside the Black diaspora using it, mostly because they often (in my experience!) lack context on what that means and how it hits. It’s like a flag on the dialogue play, in other words.
cmorenc
I’d like to think that CNN’s motive for hosting the Trump town hall was to give Trump enough rope to hang himself with the broader electorate, with a friendly audience approvingly egging him on to grab even more rope. That moderator Kaitlin Collins asked him some blunt, tough, awkward questions does make that seem at least a plausible possibility
But naah, CNN far more likely did it as click-bait to draw better ratings from more rightward-leaning viewers. And because CNN is trying to gain better audience share for their broadcasts of the Presidential horse race in 2024.
scav
Mmmm, which?
Currently Nuzzling Nazis or
Constantly Nourishing Nutjobs or
some combinatorics thereof . . ,
NotMax
@zhena gogolia
In no way implying equivalence but some (of the same?) people howled and applauded for Andrew Dice Clay too.
//
Betty Cracker
@Omnes Omnibus: That’s my rule too. And it’s not always as simple as “defer to people in the community” because there’s not always consensus. And consensus evolves! To sum up, as Gandalf said, “It’s better if you don’t speak at all, Peregrin Took.” ;-)
Geminid
@WaterGirl: Personally, I don’t think it’s right for people who are not Black to use these terms, and they do better to use less fraught descriptors.
I thought of this question when I saw Ragnarok Lobster attach these epithets to people like Tim Scott or Clarence Thomas. I concluded that while it might be Mr. Lobster’s prerogative to use them, it’s not mine to repeat them, so I don’t.
The Thin Black Duke
@raven: Usually it’s “motherfucker”.
Miss Bianca
@rikyrah: This happens over and fucking over again and these nativist authoritarian assholes NEVER SEEM TO GET IT that their anti-immigrant legislatin’ is going to bite them in the ass.
I mean, it would be almost funny to watch except for all the terror, waste, and chaos it sows while lurching towards the inevitable conclusion.
planet eddie
@MisterDancer: Such a good response, and it’s so complicated. I fell into quicksands here using language that was normalized within my own community to identify women who discriminate against my community, and it opened a world of confusion, but some progress too.
I think a rule of thumb is to always punch up. If a Black person observes another Black person catering to white power, they are punching up against a form of oppression. A white person calling the same thing out is punching down against someone of another race who is using one of the tools of white supremacy.
WaterGirl
@MisterDancer: Of course you may!
You just haven’t been around much :-) and The Thin Black Duke uses the terms, which is why I thought to ask him.
It’s complicated, but I don’t hear either of you saying “it’s offensive; don’t use it” so I think everyone is on their own here, to use their own judgment.
Unlike the n-word or the c-word, which are both clearly offensive to the race/gender in question
edit: At first I was very surprised the MazeDancer would be weighing in on this. But I often read your nym as MazeDancer at first glance. :-)
WaterGirl
@Betty Cracker:
Rotating tag?
Chief Oshkosh
@rikyrah: Yep. And there’s LOTS of loans associated with those crops (in addition to the loans associated with construction).
JoyceH
@gvg:
Mehdi Hasan. He doesn’t let anybody gish-gallop him. He’s written a BOOK called ‘Win Every Argument’. And being out-talked by a Muslim with a British accent would send Trump comPLETEly around the bend.
planet eddie
@WaterGirl: I might be misreading, but I am pretty sure the consensus is that it is offensive for a white person to use.
Ruckus
@geg6:
The FTFNYFT core demographic is wealthy white people and very, very wealthy white people. They write to about maybe a million people in a city of over 8 million. As long as anyone else buys and reads it, they are fine with that. Think pompous and arrogant privileged people who KNOW their shit doesn’t stink. And they will never be anything different.
JoyceH
I’m an old lady who grew up when “negro” was the polite term. And I’m frankly kind of at a loss – what IS the polite term now? Is it black? I saw a thing a while back where someone used the term “African-American” for people who were, in fact, simply African. Is there a general term for people who are black, but not American? African-British? And come to think of it, what about “caucasian”? Is that still a thing, or is it just white?
Reboot
@Scout211: Interesting backstory on Licht in the ‘Personal Life’ section of his Wikipedia entry: ‘On April 28, 2010, Licht suffered a near-fatal cerebral hemorrhage while driving in Washington, D.C. … Joe Biden, the then vice-president and a survivor of an aneurysm himself, cold-called Dr. Vivek Deshmukh, a highly recommended neurosurgeon, to care for Licht.’ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Licht)
Paul in KY
@Frankensteinbeck: Thank you (NOT) for making me contemplate that (flipping you off right now)
Paul in KY
@gvg: Conan O’Brien is a pretty big guy.
JaneE
I can only hope that the not MAGA viewers are disgusted enough to vote Democrat for the rest of their lives.
Miss Bianca
@Reboot: And this is how the mofo repays him for the kindness…smdh.
schrodingers_cat
@WaterGirl: Modi’s BJP and its parent organization the RSS is grooming India for a genocide. To you this may seem hyperbolic but I have receipts based on their past performance and their rhetoric in the present tense.
Inviting this man for a state dinner sends a terrible message.
Reboot
@Miss Bianca: Exactly.
cain
@rikyrah: Everything you say is true. He can hide the stats but he can’t hide reality. It will catch up with him. I’m just saying there is a pattern he is going to follow.
I hope he goes down the well and takes his corrupt legislature and judiciary with him.
NaijaGal
@planet eddie: Agreed.
cain
@JoyceH:
I use ‘black folks’ – as a community organizer/manager I try to make sure I use terms that work well within communities.
I can imagine that society has gotten complex and not even language is not keeping up with the terms and attitude that is rapidly changing as cultures, communities, and races are interconnected thanks the internet.
UncleEbeneezer
@planet eddie: That’s definitely been my perception from spending hundreds of hours listening to Black comedy podcasts that frequently talk, in-depth, about just these sort of topics. It’s something White People shouldn’t say. The only way I would is if I were directly quoting someone or using it as an example like “My FIL is the type of old, white Bernie-supporter who swears he doesn’t have a racist bone in his body but still uses the term ‘negro.'”
JoyceH
@cain:
I remember as a kid cringing when my aunt would say ‘the coloreds’ – but that was the nice terminology when she came up!
BlueGuitarist
@rikyrah:
Tuberville should be much better known as part of the Greene-Bobert-Ron Johnson-etc embarrassment
Maybe it will help wake up a few people that these jerks can’t understand why nazis shouldn’t take over the US armed forces.
When BenCisco mentioned this idiocy downstairs I added
“Sen. Tommy Tuberville says a jury finding that Trump is a sexual predator ‘makes me want to vote for him twice.’”
About which Mark Jacob said, “It’s the perfect quote to meld 3 Republican themes: misogyny, violence, and election fraud.”
Paul in KY
@WaterGirl: Think so…..
planet eddie
@UncleEbeneezer: yeah, I have a lot of close friends and collaborators who are Black, and they’d look pretty askance at anyone white using that term.
In certain spaces with people where I have earned the right to certain kinds of jokes, that’s one thing, but even there I’m always punching up with my humor, not down, and listening closely to the spirit of the room if it’s a moment to shut my white mouth.
zhena gogolia
@planet eddie: Right. Good way to formulate it.
planet eddie
@JoyceH: the consensus from most people I know is Black (capitalized). Other identifiers can be added as requested.
Barry
These people who talk about going into the basement and riding the storm out are saying what they will *claim* later. In reality, they will be helping.
Feathers
@WaterGirl: The youngs are throwing the c-word around like it was nothing. I’m picking up what they mean by it, but won’t be repeating that one.
Gravenstone
@Chris Johnson: Dude, to you everything means “Russia”
MisterDancer
@JoyceH: A lot of good questions! I’ll do my best to give my understanding. But I gotta say — all the people we’re talking about will not agree. There’s no Committee of Blackness that sets the parameters and guardrails, just a lot of people working thru a lot of shared trauma and trying to find joy.
“Black” is a general term for people of African decent (or the Diaspora, although the terms aren’t exactly the same) that works for a number of geographical and cultural spaces, not just America. it’s polite enough for a lot of informal and some formal spaces in America. That said — if you’re having a broader communication it’s best to check with any folx from the African Diaspora who might be part of that communication, if at all possible.
And I’d be wary of using the term “Black” around people and groups specific to Africa. There’s enough local/regional terms that you should try to avoid “generic” terms there, esp. given how often we the The West (and I include myself in this!) talk about Africa as more like a single Country, than an extremely diverse and deeply historical set of cultures. As someone who spent decades working in North African dance, I assure you those folx aren’t considering themselves “Africans” in the way we here use the term.
See above. Black people in the UK — as I once screwed up myself, to my shame — are pretty clearly not African-American, and (to my awareness) generally go as “Black”.
Last I checked, Caucasian is best left to people from that geographic region. “White” applies much better to how the more-or-less European Diaspora actually works, esp. around the cultural connections and impact of “being White”.
Chris Johnson
@Gravenstone: I know. Weird how often I’ve been right, but I get the problem with it. Trump, however, I’m sure of: then it’s a matter of ‘how do they support him in the media?’.
Ukraine is a litmus test for me that a LOT of people fail real bad…
Maxim
@UncleEbeneezer: Exactly. Thank you.
Another Scott
TheOnion.com – Trump Condemned For Giving Platform To CNN.
Cheers,
Scott.
cain
@MisterDancer: Interestingly enough, I only apply black to black americans. For Africans, I tend to call them from where they are from eg Kenyans or Nigerians. I don’t call them black.
For folks in the UK, I have no clue.