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Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Come on, man.

Oh FFS you might as well trust a 6-year-old with a flamethrower.

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Let the trolls come, and then ignore them. that’s the worst thing you can do to a troll.

I have other things to bitch about but those will have to wait.

“Alexa, change the president.”

Donald Trump found guilty as fuck – May 30, 2024!

Tick tock motherfuckers!

Too often we hand the biggest microphones to the cynics and the critics who delight in declaring failure.

If senate republicans had any shame, they’d die of it.

Republicans seem to think life begins at the candlelight dinner the night before.

Never entrust democracy to any process that requires republicans to act in good faith.

Lick the third rail, it tastes like chocolate!

Prediction: the gop will rethink its strategy of boycotting future committees.

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Seems like a complicated subject, have you tried yelling at it?

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They punch you in the face and then start crying because their fist hurts.

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You are here: Home / Politics / Trump Indictments / Now We’re Getting Somewhere Good (I Hope!)

Now We’re Getting Somewhere Good (I Hope!)

by WaterGirl|  June 23, 20235:45 pm| 134 Comments

This post is in: Open Threads, Politics, Trump Indictments

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So this fellow, whom I had never heard of before today, has signed a limited cooperation agreement with the DOJ.

He’s pleading guilty to being on the grounds of the capital when he shouldn’t have been, and he has agreed to give the DOJ access to ALL HIS SOCIAL MEDIA ACCOUNTS.

Why do we care?

  • He’s the “right-hand guy to Alex fucking Jones.
  • He’s a member of the Friends of Stone messaging group.
  • He was at The Willard on Jan 5.

They are closing in, or so it seems to me.

NEW: Owen Shroyer – right hand man to Alex Jones and member of the “Friends of Stone” messaging group – IS COOPERATING WITH DOJ. He was at the Willard 1/5. https://t.co/BfgtCymKbN

— Mueller, She Wrote (@MuellerSheWrote) June 23, 2023

Tick, tock, smarmy motherfuckers!

Open thread.

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Reader Interactions

134Comments

  1. 1.

    WaterGirl

    June 23, 2023 at 5:49 pm

    I have a question for Immanetize at our “legal stuff” *zoom tonight.

    Apparently the former guy “can’t get a bond” for the 5.5 million that he owes Stormy Daniels E. Jean Carroll, so it looks like he is having to put cold hard cash in escrow (so to speak) as they appeal the Stormy Daniels win.  Does that mean what I think it does?

    *zoom at 7pm ET tonight, email me for the zoom link

  2. 2.

    WereBear

    June 23, 2023 at 5:52 pm

    It’s turning out Alex Jones might need a canteen fund, and there won’t be anyone left to keep it stocked.

  3. 3.

    Burnspbesq

    June 23, 2023 at 5:54 pm

    @WaterGirl:

    Daniels or Carroll?

  4. 4.

    Spanky

    June 23, 2023 at 5:57 pm

    Does Stormy Daniels’ settlement include her legal expenses? And would that mean the more tfg delays, the more he has to pay

    Eta, or Carroll?

  5. 5.

    SpaceUnit

    June 23, 2023 at 5:59 pm

    Gonna be like that Oprah show where they gave away cars except instead of cars it will be seditious conspiracy indictments.

  6. 6.

    Scout211

    June 23, 2023 at 6:03 pm

    And there’s this:

    Special counsel trades immunity for fake elector testimony as Jan 6 probe heats up

    Special counsel Jack Smith has compelled at least two Republican fake electors to testify to a federal grand jury in Washington in recent weeks by giving them limited immunity, part of a current push by federal prosecutors to swiftly nail down evidence in the sprawling criminal investigation into efforts to overturn the 2020 election.

    The testimony, described to CNN by people familiar with the situation, comes after a year of relative dormancy around the fake electors portion of the investigation and as a parade of related witnesses are being told to appear before the grand jury with no chance for delay.
    . . .
    The compelled testimony has allowed the special counsel’s office to lock in witness statements and potentially information that other investigators who have looked at the aftermath of the 2020 election couldn’t obtain.

    At least one other witness has spoken to investigators in the past two weeks outside of the grand jury with an agreement the person would be protected from potential prosecution, another source said.

    At least half a dozen witnesses have testified before the federal grand jury in Washington over four days in the past two weeks, with many of the sessions focused on the fake electors’ plot orchestrated by attorneys assisting the Trump campaign in 2020. The numbers, profile of the witnesses and prosecutor tactics suggest a probe picking up its pace, several people familiar with the investigation said.

  7. 7.

    WaterGirl

    June 23, 2023 at 6:05 pm

    @Burnspbesq: @Spanky:

    Oh, you’re right, it’s Carroll!  So many lawsuits, so many  women…

  8. 8.

    eclare

    June 23, 2023 at 6:05 pm

    Deleted

  9. 9.

    Elizabelle

    June 23, 2023 at 6:05 pm

    Thank you for the reminder about the zoom tonight. I’ll send you an email now.

  10. 10.

    JoyceH

    June 23, 2023 at 6:07 pm

    They’re getting testimony on the Willard??? YAAAAY! An answer to a prayer!

  11. 11.

    mrmoshpotato

    June 23, 2023 at 6:10 pm

    Cave in their fucking fascist faces, Lady Justice!

  12. 12.

    mrmoshpotato

    June 23, 2023 at 6:11 pm

    Who’s ready for hilarious British baseball commentary tomorrow and Sunday?  Go Cubs!

  13. 13.

    sab

    June 23, 2023 at 6:13 pm

    @WaterGirl: Not so many women. He raped many. She was the only one with the guts to take him on.

  14. 14.

    RevRick

    June 23, 2023 at 6:14 pm

    Meanwhile, what’s going on in Russia with the Wagner Group?

  15. 15.

    Jay

    June 23, 2023 at 6:18 pm

    Forgiven PPP loans
    OceanGate, owner of the Titan: $450,000

    Marjorie Taylor Greene: $183,504

    Catholic Church: $3.5 billion

    Joel Osteen: $4 million

    Tom Brady: $960,855

    Kanye: $2-5 million

    And Republicans are mad about American students catching a hard-won break

    Go figure. – Lindy Li tweet

  16. 16.

    hueyplong

    June 23, 2023 at 6:20 pm

    @RevRick: Might be fun to hear what certain GOP Congresspersons have to say about Russia/Wagner once they get their talking points.

  17. 17.

    Jay

    June 23, 2023 at 6:20 pm

    @RevRick:

    Adam will cover it.

  18. 18.

    Burnspbesq

    June 23, 2023 at 6:23 pm

    @RevRick:

    A pie fight, with high-explosive and incendiary pies.

    Prigozhin claims the Russian military attacked Wagner facilities, causing significant casualties. He wants to take it out of somebody’s hide; Shoigu looks like the preferred candidate. I read Prigozhin as entirely willing to go after Putin if he thinks he can get him and take advantage of any power vacuum that would result. Adam can probably provide better-informed commentary.

  19. 19.

    SpaceUnit

    June 23, 2023 at 6:23 pm

    Completely OT but NPR has an article today about the first and only nuclear powered cruise ship, built in 1959.  Check out the crazy retro furnishings.

    NS Savannah

  20. 20.

    CaseyL

    June 23, 2023 at 6:33 pm

    @SpaceUnit: Omigosh, the little nuclear logos on everything everywhere!

    I thought I’d like the retro look more, but those furnishings look uniquely uncomfortable.  And, um, cheap (maybe they were, since it was a “concept” ship, not meant for regular commercial use).

  21. 21.

    oldgold

    June 23, 2023 at 6:34 pm

    Reports of possible mutiny under way in Russia.

    https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/jun/23/wagner-chief-accuses-russias-military-of-attack-and-says-evil-leadership-must-be-stopped

    Prigozhin says that the council of Wagner commanders have decided to deal with the military leadership of Russia adding that he will destroy everyone who appears n his way. “I ask everyone to stay calm at home, do not go outside.” twitter.com/PjotrSauer/sta…

    David Nelson
    @redondodave1
    (https://twitter.com/redondodave1)·
    56m
    (https://twitter.com/redondodave1/status/1672356401187008513)BBC Russia reporting that the FSB and SOBR – National Guard spetsnaz – are setting up roadblocks around Moscow.

    Security forces in Moscow put on “high alert”, and the “fortress plan”
    to protect government buildings in the city has been activated. Alarm is spreading in the city.

  22. 22.

    Juju

    June 23, 2023 at 6:35 pm

    Holy mother ducking shirt balls!!

  23. 23.

    Jess

    June 23, 2023 at 6:36 pm

    Selfish, power-hungry, vicious pricks band together to ratfuck democracy, and then *surprise!* turn on one another to save their own hides. While goodness builds on itself, evil implodes in a self-cannibalistic frenzy.

  24. 24.

    SpaceUnit

    June 23, 2023 at 6:37 pm

    @CaseyL:

    I think it’s groovy.

    Of course nothing says ahoy matey like having a core meltdown in the middle of the Atlantic.

  25. 25.

    Tony Jay

    June 23, 2023 at 6:38 pm

    He’s the “right-hand guy to Alex fucking Jones.

    Ha! Excellent.

    He’s a member of the Friends of Stone messaging group.

    Ha Haaaa! That’s interesting. Didn’t know he had actual friends.

    He was at The Willard on Jan 5.

    Ha frigging Haaaaaa!!! Gotcha! Please have taken extensive notes on your criminal conspiracy.

  26. 26.

    Mallard Filmore

    June 23, 2023 at 6:40 pm

    @oldgold: 

    Security forces in Moscow put on “high alert”, and the “fortress plan”

    I hope prigozhin gets that far.

  27. 27.

    Steeplejack

    June 23, 2023 at 6:42 pm

    “Smithers, release the hounds!”

  28. 28.

    Tony Jay

    June 23, 2023 at 6:42 pm

    @oldgold:

    If there’s one constant throughout history, it’s this – if you rely on mercenaries, or on military forces that are only loyal to those who pay them, then do not stiff them, or they will stiff you.

    Okay, not the only constant, but an important one.

  29. 29.

    UncleEbeneezer

    June 23, 2023 at 6:43 pm

    This is one of the reasons I never felt that the claims that DOJ wasn’t going after the top people, was fair.  The fact that DOJ had already made the connection between Roger Stone & the Oathkeepers and Proudboys in March of 2021, and had already arrested Owen Shroyer’s phone (side-kick of Alex Jones) by November of 2021 and got his phone in the process, always made it look pretty clear that they were investigating in the right direction to get to Jones, Stone, Meadows and ultimately Trump.

  30. 30.

    Omnes Omnibus

    June 23, 2023 at 6:49 pm

    @Tony Jay: ​
      Some Italian named Nick even wrote about it.

  31. 31.

    catclub

    June 23, 2023 at 6:50 pm

    @oldgold: wow, saw this just at CNN:
    Surovikin is seen saying in a video posted to Telegram by a Russian state media reporter.

    “You can’t play into the hands of the enemy in this difficult time for the country. While it is not too late, please obey the will and the orders of the Russian Federation’s president that was elected by the masses,” Surovikin said. “Stop the columns, bring them back to the points of permanent dislocation and communication areas... Solve all the problems peacefully under the leadership of the Commander in Chief of Russian Federation.”

  32. 32.

    Omnes Omnibus

    June 23, 2023 at 6:51 pm

    @UncleEbeneezer: It’s been suggested that it isn’t polite to bring up that kind of thing.

  33. 33.

    UncleEbeneezer

    June 23, 2023 at 6:52 pm

    @Tony Jay: Friends Of Stone was the chat used by several Proud Boys, Oathkeepers, Roger Stone etc., during 1/6 planning:

    Bertino immediately says, “should we roll out to the state houses?”

    “Yes,” Tarrio says.

    At the time, Ali Alexander, another participant on the Friends of Stone list, was working on a series of events at which mobs intimidated election workers.

    On the 8th, Bertino informed Tarrio, “we[‘]re going to Raleigh this afternoon.”

    Tarrio instructs, “Make sure…no colors,” meaning not to wear Proud boy yellow and black.

    “Why not?” Bertino asks.

    “The campaign asked us to not wear colors to these events,” says the guy whose relationship with Donald Trump’s rat-fucker goes back years. (Stone)

  34. 34.

    Tony Jay

    June 23, 2023 at 6:52 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    And if you’re going to listen to anyone on this topic, it’s Nick MacIvelly. Knows his stuff that fella.

  35. 35.

    Hellschef

    June 23, 2023 at 6:54 pm

    We wish you all best For the entire Ballon community!

  36. 36.

    catclub

    June 23, 2023 at 6:54 pm

    also thisat CNN:

    The agency reiterated that the widespread statements about the strikes of the Russian defense ministry on Wagner PMC “do not correspond to reality and are a provocation.”

    I so wish that Ukraine had made the attacks but Wagner took it as from Russia.

    Does PMC stand for Parallel Military Command? Why have one chain of command when you can have two?

  37. 37.

    zhena gogolia

    June 23, 2023 at 6:55 pm

    Can’t deal with Russia. don’t understand anything.
    Randy Rainbow, meanwhile:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zDXVw0aatQ

  38. 38.

    Alison Rose

    June 23, 2023 at 6:55 pm

    @Tony Jay:

    Didn’t know he had actual friends.

    I suspect the word has a far different definition in this connotation than you or I would use in our own lives.

  39. 39.

    piratedan

    June 23, 2023 at 6:57 pm

    @UncleEbeneezer: if the revelations from the Willard are what some have speculated, my understanding of what took place was the equivalent of a “go/no go” meeting for the coup.

    If that representation is accurate, then there should be some tell-tale threads informing the RW militia groups of their directives and coordination between the WH and certain members of Congress in order to delay the vote certification.  Also under speculation is that certain members of law enforcement were given suggestions for how much staffing would be needed, although my assumption would be for that to have been “handled” prior to the meeting at the Willard.

  40. 40.

    Tony Jay

    June 23, 2023 at 6:57 pm

    @UncleEbeneezer:

    They had a chat group.

    They named it after the rattiest of ratfuckers.

    And now all of those messages are going to end up in the hands of the DOJ?

    Oh Great Unlubed Dildo of Consequences, a disbelieving nation turns its eyes to thee.

  41. 41.

    Betsy

    June 23, 2023 at 7:00 pm

    Yikes! I almost missed the zoom.  Emailed you at 6:59 asking for link!!! Thanks, and sorry!!

  42. 42.

    Scamp Dog

    June 23, 2023 at 7:03 pm

    @catclub: Private Military Contractor (or company)

  43. 43.

    Tony Jay

    June 23, 2023 at 7:05 pm

    @Alison Rose:

    Like “Say hello to my little friend”?

    They are all a bunch of dangerous tools in the wrong hands.

  44. 44.

    frosty

    June 23, 2023 at 7:09 pm

    @SpaceUnit: Nice! But I’m going to say with 60 passengers and a bunch of cranes on deck, it’s not a cruise ship, it’s a freighter that carried some passengers.

    I hope they can get some funding to keep it as a museum piece and not scrap it. It’s one of a kind.

  45. 45.

    Geminid

    June 23, 2023 at 7:10 pm

    @RevRick: Noel Reports is giving updates in his Twitter feed. So are other commentators like Aric Toler of Bellincat.

    Laura Rozen (@lrozen) is also linking to lot of good reporting on Prigozhin’s mutiny. Rozen is a good source for international and security reporting generally. I found her through Cheryl Rofer.

  46. 46.

    Jay

    June 23, 2023 at 7:13 pm

    @catclub:

    Para Military Corporation.

    Everything they do, from Blackwater to Wagner, is for profit.

  47. 47.

    Baud

    June 23, 2023 at 7:15 pm

    Since all the smart and interesting people are on the Zoom, what should we do?

  48. 48.

    mrmoshpotato

    June 23, 2023 at 7:15 pm

    @Steeplejack:

    “Smithers, release the hounds!” 

    These fuckers definitely don’t deserve the robotic Richard Simmons.

  49. 49.

    frosty

    June 23, 2023 at 7:16 pm

    @Baud: ​Annoy each other by being uselessly pedantic of course! We’re jackals! We can figure it out!!!

    ETA I’m really tired of sometimes having my comments be text and sometimes visual. Help me Obi-Wan-WG you’re my only hope!

  50. 50.

    SpaceUnit

    June 23, 2023 at 7:17 pm

    @frosty:

    I hope so too.  I want to take a tour.

  51. 51.

    Brachiator

    June 23, 2023 at 7:19 pm

    @Jay:

    And Republicans are mad about American students catching a hard-won break.

    I know quite a few people who truly believe that a tax break given to a business is fair, right and proper, but a tax break given to  an individual is a wasteful and unnecessary giveaway to the undeserving.

    HOWEVER, I also know people who think that ANY substantial loan that you cannot repay should be forgiven. Loans should really be an extended potential gift and all lenders are deep pockets who won’t miss the money they have lent.

    And there are a small subset of people who believe that if you cannot immediately pay in full for everything, you are a moral failure.

    People are often strange about money.

  52. 52.

    UncleEbeneezer

    June 23, 2023 at 7:19 pm

    @Tony Jay: DOJ has had them for a while:

    May 2022: NYT describes more about the FOS list, confirming that Owen Shroyer, Enrique Tarrio, Stewart Rhodes, and Ivan Raiklin took part. By June 23, 2022, DOJ had extracted the contents of Shroyer, Tarrio, and Rhodes’ phones.

  53. 53.

    BeautifulPlumage

    June 23, 2023 at 7:20 pm

    @Baud: make more popcorn and watch the civil war starting in Russia. What a Friday!

  54. 54.

    NotMax

    June 23, 2023 at 7:22 pm

    @Baud

    Zoom showing on one monitor, this thread on the other.
    ;)

  55. 55.

    Uncle Cosmo

    June 23, 2023 at 7:23 pm

    @SpaceUnit: ​Of course nothing says ahoy matey like having a core meltdown in the middle of the Atlantic.

    Just FTR –

    U.S. Nuclear Powered Warships (NPWs) have safely operated for more than 50 yearswithout experiencing any reactor accident or any release of radioactivity that hurt human healthor had an adverse effect on marine life. Naval reactors have an outstanding record of over134 million miles safely steamed on nuclear power, and they have amassed over 5700reactor-years of safe operation.

    (source)

    (Thresher and Scorpion were lost due to diving lost due to electrical and mechanical failures that led to uncontrollable flooding, not “core meltdown”.)

    Also FTR, the NS Savannah was a demonstration nuclear merchant ship, not a “cruise ship.” You could look it up.

  56. 56.

    UncleEbeneezer

    June 23, 2023 at 7:23 pm

    @piratedan: That’s what I think too.  The Willard may very well be the key (evidence wise) for tying the leaders to Stone and Trump.  That DOJ has been working on securing that info from the very beginning, to me, shows that there was never any hesitation about going after Trump.  You didn’t have to be an Intel expert to know that Stone->Trump.

  57. 57.

    Baud

    June 23, 2023 at 7:23 pm

    @BeautifulPlumage:

    Some wingnut will complain that we’re not having a civil war here.

    Probably Boebart.

  58. 58.

    Tony Jay

    June 23, 2023 at 7:27 pm

    @UncleEbeneezer:

    Ahhhh, so the dirt in them was what got him to flip, maybe.

    I learn things here. It is pleasing to me.

  59. 59.

    BeautifulPlumage

    June 23, 2023 at 7:27 pm

    @Baud: damn, now we have a civil war gap

  60. 60.

    SpaceUnit

    June 23, 2023 at 7:28 pm

    @Uncle Cosmo:

    Good point about the Naval ships.  As for calling it a cruise ship I was just quoting the NPR article.

    I don’t know anything about ships.  I just thought it was cool.

  61. 61.

    Kyle Rayner

    June 23, 2023 at 7:28 pm

    Okay, I’m familiar with Machiavelli’s warnings about relying on mercenaries, as well as what should be the good common sense that a sovereign state shouldn’t sell out its monopoly on sanctioned violence. But all the same, all this mutiny stuff isn’t just a really good excuse for the Russian army and Wagner to both abruptly pull out of Ukraine while Russia engages in nuclear terrorism, right? Bc Adam’s report on ZPP’s dangerous state of affairs was still the freshest thing in my mind before the new developments.

  62. 62.

    Mallard Filmore

    June 23, 2023 at 7:28 pm

    @catclub:  DailyKos has a posting that will add to the confusion.  Rumors from many sources, some trusted, others not.

    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2023/6/23/2177222/-Coup-in-Russia

  63. 63.

    Omnes Omnibus

    June 23, 2023 at 7:30 pm

    @Kyle Rayner: No one can answer questions like that right now.

  64. 64.

    Brachiator

    June 23, 2023 at 7:31 pm

    @Tony Jay:

    If there’s one constant throughout history, it’s this – if you rely on mercenaries, or on military forces that are only loyal to those who pay them, then do not stiff them, or they will stiff you.

    If Donald the Orange Beast understood this and was not a cheap dope unwilling to pay people for their services, many of us would now be living in the Fractured States of Trumpistan.

  65. 65.

    Dorothy A. Winsor

    June 23, 2023 at 7:32 pm

    @Jess: I genuinely am not sure whether you’re talking about the R party or Russian mercenaries

  66. 66.

    Geminid

    June 23, 2023 at 7:34 pm

    @RevRick:

     

    @Geminid: Financial Times reporter Max Seddon (@maxseddon) is also reporting on current developments in Russia.

  67. 67.

    Uncle Cosmo

    June 23, 2023 at 7:37 pm

    @Jay: ​

    FWIW, пaрá (technically, порá, but the unstressed “o” is pronounced as an “a”) is the first word Sean Connery’s Captain Ramius says in The Hunt for Red October, meaning “it’s time.” So, “It’s Time Military Corp.”

    Yeah, it’s about time, you murderous scumbags. How à propos.

  68. 68.

    mrmoshpotato

    June 23, 2023 at 7:38 pm

    @SpaceUnit: Funky.

  69. 69.

    Manyakitty

    June 23, 2023 at 7:40 pm

    @Kyle Rayner: oh shit. I just got a sick feeling.

  70. 70.

    Feathers

    June 23, 2023 at 7:41 pm

    What is this Call of Duty cutscene bullshit that’s going on in Russia now? John Rogers

  71. 71.

    cain

    June 23, 2023 at 7:42 pm

    @oldgold: JFC – this week man, is fucking nuts. Glad to see pushback from the legal system against all the evil shit.

    And now, Russia is having their own problem. Today’s update by Adam is going to be lit!

  72. 72.

    Kyle Rayner

    June 23, 2023 at 7:49 pm

    @Manyakitty: I always try to extract the maximum amount of reassurance remembering how literally nothing from Russia’s side so far in this war has been done with any measure of competence or brilliance.

  73. 73.

    zhena gogolia

    June 23, 2023 at 7:50 pm

    @Baud: We always eat dinner at 7. Plus I have a standing Zoom with college friends on Fridays at 5 (since Covid). I can’t do two in a row, or ask my husband to eat dinner while listening to BJ conversation.

  74. 74.

    Tony Jay

    June 23, 2023 at 7:50 pm

    @Brachiator:

    Or – and look at me being all optimistic when it’s not the UK being discussed – if Trump had been a lot smarter and a little less of a small-time grifter his threat to the integrity of the USA would have been countered sooner, harder and with more collateral damage by the internal forces who, in the real world, judged he’d flame out and lose reelection before they had to act.

    We’ll never know, because he really was dumber than a mute mallard with a bag over its head.

  75. 75.

    Jeffro

    June 23, 2023 at 7:52 pm

    my FIL is here for dinner and an overnight stay, and he was just telling us at dinner about his “current events” group at the old folks home.  they discuss, um, current events.  call me crazy but it seems like the group’s main moderator likes to steer things in a very shall we say right-leaning framework.

    ie, I’m jumping around with glee at the prospect of Putin’s forces and the Wagner Group going at it, and my FIL is telling me, “well, there are worse people who might take over in Russia” (which is a trope he picked up from this group and that moderator).  Technically true, but…what’s “worse”??  Like, is the new guy going to invade neighboring countries?  Interfere in American elections?  Buy off an entire American political party?

    I’m good with taking our chances on ‘new guy’.

  76. 76.

    UncleEbeneezer

    June 23, 2023 at 7:53 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: People don’t like when you point out the myriad examples that deflate their narrative that Garland is Feckless and/or trying to avoid holding Trump (and his higher ups) accountable.  But from the very beginning it’s been pretty obvious that that is not the case.

  77. 77.

    Jeffro

    June 23, 2023 at 7:53 pm

    oh and it should probably be said..sometimes it take a little longer, especially for the puppeteer to be ‘infected’ by the puppet, but as sure as death and taxes…

    …Everything Trump Touches Dies

    #ETTD

  78. 78.

    zhena gogolia

    June 23, 2023 at 7:54 pm

    @Jeffro: Oh, what kind of idiot is that??? There is virtually no one worse than Prigozhin.

  79. 79.

    Omnes Omnibus

    June 23, 2023 at 7:54 pm

    @UncleEbeneezer: We are, of course, in agreement.

  80. 80.

    patrick II

    June 23, 2023 at 7:55 pm

    @Kyle Rayner:

    That is an excellent question.

  81. 81.

    Baud

    June 23, 2023 at 7:56 pm

    @zhena gogolia:

    Good man.

  82. 82.

    Steeplejack

    June 23, 2023 at 7:59 pm

    @mrmoshpotato:

    They certainly do not!

  83. 83.

    Manyakitty

    June 23, 2023 at 8:00 pm

    @Kyle Rayner: acceptable. Additionally, I don’t think the Russians care about their people enough to bother evacuating them.

  84. 84.

    Steeplejack

    June 23, 2023 at 8:06 pm

    @zhena gogolia:

    [. . .] ask my husband to eat dinner while listening to BJ conversation.

    Nobody wants that!

  85. 85.

    Baud

    June 23, 2023 at 8:06 pm

    The Prime movie Air about Air Jordans is pretty good and has a great soundtrack.

  86. 86.

    Martin

    June 23, 2023 at 8:07 pm

    @Uncle Cosmo: Yes, the US has supposedly never lost a ship to nuclear failure. Scorpion is believed to have gone down to a design failure in the batteries on the torpedos that got triggered on their journey back to the US from the mediterranean. A torpedo battery is believed to have exploded and breached the torpedo room, but without a cascade failure.

    I’m an advocate for nuclear power, but not privatized nuclear power. The navy has proven that it can operate safely, and the private sector has proven that they are not the party to do that. Maybe as a non-profit exercise, but not under a profit motive.

  87. 87.

    Martin

    June 23, 2023 at 8:13 pm

    @Jeffro: I’m not so sure. The only reliable upside here I think is for Ukraine. No matter how this goes, it’s likely to result in a pullback of Russian forces in Ukraine, or at least a loss of command control, both of which are beneficial in the near term.

    Coups tend to usually make things worse, sometimes them the same under a different terrible leader, and very rarely make them better. Those aren’t great odds.

    But a leadership vacuum would be great news for Ukraine’s counteroffensive effort.

  88. 88.

    Geminid

    June 23, 2023 at 8:14 pm

    @Martin: I read in Air Force Times that there are plans to start operating one of those small nuclear power units at a remote airbase on the Aleutian Islands, by 2027 I believe. It’s a likely spot; the base currently uses coal, and that has to be kept under cover in a heated structure.

    China projects a large build out of nuclear power generation in coming  decades.

  89. 89.

    Jeffro

    June 23, 2023 at 8:15 pm

    @Martin: ok, be unsure…I’m unsure about how all of it will play out.  But like you, I know that this is good news for Ukraine.  And I’m 99% certain it’s bad, as opposed to good, for Putin (which is good!)

  90. 90.

    UncleEbeneezer

    June 23, 2023 at 8:23 pm

    Allison Gill has a good thread making an argument that I have always believed: Trump was never going to be in jail before 2024 election, even if DOJ rushed every move. The reality is that Garland didn’t get his people into the USAO until Fall of 2021 because they were blocked by Republicans. Marcy Wheeler has noted several times that it takes about a year to extract messages from the phones seized by the FBI. The idea that any AG was gonna get Trump imprisoned before the next election was always a pipe dream. Former US Attorney Barb McQuade, Joyce White Vance and several others with experience in Fed cases said that charges wouldn’t come until Summer or Fall of 2023 (even before we heard about some of the delays that Trump loyalists caused):

    This would be the case no matter how soon the 1/6 investigation began – which was delayed by trump holdovers. Would I have preferred a special counsel be appointed a year sooner? Yes – and I asked for one. Would it have made a difference to 2024? No. 1/

    Let’s game it out. Let’s say Garland appointed a special counsel in November of 2021. That’s when Graves was sworn in as US Attorney in DC & Olsen was sworn in as NATSEC AAG at DoJ. That’s the FIRST TIME Garland had HIS team of Biden appointees to prosecute the top of the coup 2/

    It would be kinda weird to hire a special counsel the same month your team finally got there. That team – btw – was delayed by republicans in congress. Not Garland or Biden. So why didn’t Garland get the ball rolling earlier in 2021 between March and November? 3/

    Fair question, and I suppose he could have been more aggressive had the information about the fraudulent elector scheme not been KEPT from him by trump holdovers like Mike fucking Sherwin (who I’m pretty sure was a source for that Wapo reporting) 4/

    Once Garland’s team – appointed by Biden – was in place (finally), they brought on Wndom to help run the coup probe. Windom wanted to go hard after the fraudulent electors beginning November 2021, but he was getting pushback from OTHER trump holdovers at the FBI 5/

    The pushback was NOT coming from Garland or Monaco. Cooney (who now works for Jack Smith) wanted to investigate Stone, Alexander, and Jones in FEBRUARY 2021 but SHERWIN and D’ANTUONO shot him down. 6/

    When Garland got there the next month, Sherwin OMITTED that investigative proposal when he briefed Garland. Then in November, Windom had the same idea and D’ANTUONO shot him down. So he went to the Postal Inspector. 7/

  91. 91.

    JMG

    June 23, 2023 at 8:23 pm

    Absolutely non-political use of an open thread: The (very short) commercial striped bass season has opened on Cape Cod! Thus I was able to purchase some, and bake it over coals, wrapped in foil, with an oil, chopped lemon, chopped shallot and chopped parsley dressing. Came out great if I do say so myself. Summer is here! (actually, I knew that because of all the out of state license plates in the fish market parking lot).

    Back to political news: Whether or not the Wagner forces pose a serious threat to  Putin or are obliterated, the removal of 25,000 front line troops can’t possibly be good for Russia’s front lines in Ukraine.

  92. 92.

    cain

    June 23, 2023 at 8:30 pm

    Damn so weird, Charles Johnson of Little Green Footballs just followed me on Mastodon. I think I was just liking one of his toots. Must have liked the programmer part of what I do since apparently he’s a coder.

  93. 93.

    Brachiator

    June 23, 2023 at 8:30 pm

    @Tony Jay:

    Or – and look at me being all optimistic when it’s not the UK being discussed – if Trump had been a lot smarter and a little less of a small-time grifter his threat to the integrity of the USA would have been countered sooner, harder and with more collateral damage by the internal forces who, in the real world, judged he’d flame out and lose reelection before they had to act.

    Trump and Boris Johnson are both men who successfully appealed to the worst elements of vile political parties who rightfully saw that they could use these faux populists to further right wing interests.

    Early on Republican leaders claimed that they would never support Trump. But they didn’t fight hard to stop him from taking over the GOP. Also, early on, even though the GOP leadership were wary of Trump, wealthy donors immediately liked what they were seeing.

    The Uber rich knew that if Trump could pull in enough suckers who believed that the right wing actually care about them, then the robber barons could get away with anything.

    Meanwhile, over where you are, I understand that there are still a lot of ordinary people getting kicked in the butt by inflation and an indifferent government who still believe that Boris Johnson and the Easter Bunny will be bringing them a BREXIT benefit.

  94. 94.

    Martin

    June 23, 2023 at 8:31 pm

    @Geminid: I do like the design of the NuScale reactors, but the important thing on deployment of nuclear is _speed_. If it’s going to take a decade or more to get operation, forget it. You can usually get solar/wind/etc up and running faster and cheaper.

    The military can deploy fast because they bypass a shit ton of regulation, they don’t need to do a zillion studies in order to get bank financing, and so on. If they can demonstrate construction *quickly* then I’m largely on board. But the US has shown no real commitment to solving that problem. Climate change is coming FAST.

  95. 95.

    mrmoshpotato

    June 23, 2023 at 8:32 pm

    @cain: Are tweets really called “toots” on Mastodon?

  96. 96.

    David 🌈 ☘The Establishment☘🌈 Koch

    June 23, 2023 at 8:34 pm

    @Baud: ​
      good to know. I’ve been avoiding it since shoe movies usually stink.

  97. 97.

    piratedan

    June 23, 2023 at 8:35 pm

    @cain: he is, but he also blogs for the good guys these days since his recovery from Islamaphobia.

  98. 98.

    NotMax

    June 23, 2023 at 8:36 pm

    Zoom just now ended.

  99. 99.

    Baud

    June 23, 2023 at 8:37 pm

    @David 🌈 ☘The Establishment☘🌈 Koch:

    You didn’t like Crocs: The Movie.

  100. 100.

    Jay

    June 23, 2023 at 8:38 pm

    @Brachiator:

    In Canada, we have “secured loans” and “unsecured loans”.

    Secured loans have physical property attached. They can take, (seize) the property, but only after going to court.

    Unsecured loans don’t.

    If you walk away from an unsecured loan, as long as you don’t make any payments on the loan, (debt), no matter how many vulture companies they sell it to, after two years, it’s dead.

    Yeah, your credit rating takes a hit, no biggie.

  101. 101.

    Martin

    June 23, 2023 at 8:39 pm

    @UncleEbeneezer: Not sure Democrats want Trump in jail before the election. They’ve been playing high stakes with choosing their opponents, and having the GOP choose a presidential candidate in the middle of a trial is, well, pretty fucking high stakes. Some states have provisions to replace a candidate that dies, but if you nominate one that has been indicted, well, you gotta live with that stupidity.

    I’m not one that believes that Trump is even remotely electable. If the GOP can be convinced to nominate him, well, god bless everyone for that.

  102. 102.

    cain

    June 23, 2023 at 8:40 pm

    @JMG: Not just that – those 25k is now going to cause mischief causing russian forces to back track to protect the country so even less soldiers than before.

  103. 103.

    Roberto el oso

    June 23, 2023 at 8:40 pm

    @Manyakitty: same here, but I’m trying to remember that, while the scenario presented by Kyle Rayner is indeed horrifying, it would also require a level of strategic thinking and cleverness that has so far been lacking on the Russian side. I also don’t believe that if it is some kind of a “plan” that either Prigozhin or Shuigo are such ego-less patriots that they would agree to allowing themselves to be publicly abused to this degree. Also, even though Putin has shown no particular regard for actual Russian lives, it seems there might be some rumors about movement East among the upper ranks of the collaborators in Donbass, etc.

    Just my 2 kopiyoks’ :

    & I see Kyle Rayner has pretty much said the same thing regarding Russia’s incompetence ….

  104. 104.

    cain

    June 23, 2023 at 8:42 pm

    @mrmoshpotato: Yeah – it’s called ‘toot’ in mastodon. Of course, if you’re from 1940s New York City I suppose you have a different response to the word ‘toot’.

  105. 105.

    Martin

    June 23, 2023 at 8:44 pm

    @Baud: Crocs are the shoes worn in the future in Idiocracy. They had just launched and the costume designer thought they were too stupid to see wide adoption and so chose them as ‘what would stupid people in the future wear’. By the time the movie launched, they were super popular.

    It sort of is ‘Crocs: the movie’

  106. 106.

    cain

    June 23, 2023 at 8:44 pm

    @Martin:

    The whining and whinging they would do if he were put in jail at towards the end of the election cycle. I’m not sure what is going to happen but it’s not the Dems fault they picked a guy who obviously had legal issues. Sucks to be them.

    But you know how they are – they deserve special treatment because they are the true Americans, the original people from the bygones day.

  107. 107.

    SiubhanDuinne

    June 23, 2023 at 8:45 pm

    @NotMax:

    ‘Twas a fine Zoom.

  108. 108.

    Martin

    June 23, 2023 at 8:48 pm

    @mrmoshpotato: Sort of. The platform really doesn’t want them to be called ‘toots’. They’re ‘posts’. But at the same time ‘tweet’ was coined by Blaine Cook, the developer of Twitteriffic, not by Twitter. Twitteriffic was kicked off of Twitter by Musk last year, and now has a Mastodon client coming out, so a lot of us are waiting for Blaine to definitively resolve this. So far, they are ‘posts’ in his new client Ivory (which is really nice, btw.)

  109. 109.

    UncleEbeneezer

    June 23, 2023 at 8:54 pm

    Worth noting that at the Willard Hotel with Shroyer were a veritable who’s-who of MAGA shit-heads: Flynn, Bannon, Stone, Epshtyn, Bobb, Kerik, Eastman, Russel J. Ramsland Jr. (1), Phillip Luelsdorff.  With Meadows “dialing in” according to Cassidy Hutchinson.

    (1.) co-owner of Allied Security Operations Group, a cybersecurity outfit he has used to push election fraud conspiracy theories, going back to 2018)

    (2.) director of Business Development for 1st Amendment Praetorian (1AP), a fascist paramilitary security group that has provided “security” for far-right politicians and fascist rallies

    Shroyer’s cooperation could be HUGE!!!

  110. 110.

    Jeffro

    June 23, 2023 at 8:56 pm

    more fucking No Labels bullshit from the Post’s almost-premiere GOP hack:

    I’m going to pretend Republicans should be worried about No Labels unless they wink wink nominate this particular kind of “bipartisan” ticket:

    Democrats are panicking over No Labels, the bipartisan group laying the groundwork for an independent unity ticket as an insurance policy if Donald Trump wins the GOP nomination. Democrats complain No Labels would bleed support from President Biden without winning Republican votes, thus handing the presidency to Trump.

    In fact, No Labels can win Republican support — but only if it nominates the right candidates.If it nominates Sen. Joe Manchin III (D-W.Va.) for president, a possibility Manchin does not discount — and then selects a Republican of similar stature as his running mate — No Labels could put forward the first serious, credible third-party ticket in modern times. Unlike Evan McMullin, Jill Stein or even Perot, Manchin is a sitting senator and former governor with a national profile and record of accomplishment. In different times, he could credibly be the Democratic Party’s presidential nominee.

    If No Labels paired Manchin with a pro-choice Republican, that window would close: The ticket would rightly be seen by Republicans as a Democratic stalking horse. And without Republican support, it would be nothing more than the spoiler Democrats fear. But if No Labels neutralizes the abortion question, it can appeal to voters from both sides who are sick of being forced to choose between the extremes.

    Tell me more, Thiessen, you hack, how most GOP voters are going to vote for a 3rd party candidate if the other choices are Biden and (either trumpov OR DeSantis).

    Tell me that voters want a ticket with Joe Manchin and some anti-abortion Republican – THAT’s what they’re dying for?

    Or if you’re honest, just tell me that you’d be perfectly fine with a Manchin candidacy that kneecaps Biden and delivers the presidency to either fake Dem + forced-birth VP or DeSantis.

    Anyway, hear that, No Labels?  It’s up to YOU to “neutralize the abortion question”.  The GOP and its flunkies on SCOTUS certainly can’t.

  111. 111.

    NotMax

    June 23, 2023 at 8:56 pm

    @SiubhanDuinne

    Think at one point I counted nearly 30 in attendance.

  112. 112.

    Jeffro

    June 23, 2023 at 8:58 pm

    @Martin: me personally?  I want him in jail just as soon as possible.

    hell, I wanted him to pay for J6 on the morning of J7, right there on the Capitol steps.

    There are no higher stakes to be had, not since he was first “elected” and certainly not since J6.  Let’s go.  Let’s deliver justice and let the rest of the chips fall where they may.

  113. 113.

    David 🌈 ☘The Establishment☘🌈 Koch

    June 23, 2023 at 8:59 pm

    @NotMax: ​
      Law and Order: Jackals

  114. 114.

    HumboldtBlue

    June 23, 2023 at 8:59 pm

    The state Supreme Court on Thursday broadened Californians’ right to seek damages for abusive conduct by police, overturning decades of rulings that shielded police and the agencies that employed them from liability for any actions officers took during investigations.

    State law does not provide “a sweeping immunity for any and all acts police officers may perform within the scope of their employment,” Justice Leondra Kruger said in the 7-0 ruling.

  115. 115.

    Lehrjet

    June 23, 2023 at 9:01 pm

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: No difference what so ever.

  116. 116.

    currants

    June 23, 2023 at 9:01 pm

    @Brachiator: ​
     
    That was as clear a description of (American) folks’ views of lending as I have ever read.

  117. 117.

    currants

    June 23, 2023 at 9:04 pm

    @UncleEbeneezer:

    Exactly right.  Unfortunately (said in my head in every language I know).

  118. 118.

    Martin

    June 23, 2023 at 9:05 pm

    @HumboldtBlue: tick-tock motherfuckers

  119. 119.

    currants

    June 23, 2023 at 9:06 pm

    @JMG: ​
      I was just in NJ on the southern tip, and my cousin’s son-in-law caught some over the weekend. They made sublime oven-baked fish tacos.

  120. 120.

    WaterGirl

    June 23, 2023 at 9:14 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: Fuck that shit.

  121. 121.

    Suzanne

    June 23, 2023 at 9:18 pm

    I just had a fantastic dinner. I made a salad with kale, shaved Brussels sprouts, broccoli slaw, and topped it with red wine Dijon vinaigrette and Gorgonzola. And a piece of smoked salmon.

    OMG it was amazing.

  122. 122.

    Gvg

    June 23, 2023 at 9:21 pm

    @Martin: except the Navy is over extended and was having all those other accidents due to not enough manpower and years of funding cuts. Not long ago there were accidents with ship collisions blamed on things like not enough sleep because all the crews are short and they don’t hey enough shore time then training shakedown befor missions again. I am not a sea person and I am just trying to repeat the gist of what I remember our experts explaining
    in short, we need to take care of navy infrastructure just as much as civilian before loading them with more responsibility. Otherwise good idea.

  123. 123.

    Matt McIrvin

    June 23, 2023 at 9:35 pm

    @Martin:

    I’m not one that believes that Trump is even remotely electable.

    I think Trump has a better than even chance of winning because our side will decide Biden is cringe and destroy itself with third party ratfucker shit, like we have done multiple times before.

    Is there one state Biden could conceivably win that he didn’t in 2020? The only one I can think of as vaguely plausible is North Carolina. Aside from that, he basically maxed out.

    But that means he doesn’t have a lot of margin to lose. Some of his wins in 2020 were close and fluky, Georgia particularly, and may be hard to replicate. And if a few percent of our sporadically-Naderite/Berniebro types decide to vote for Cornel West or something, Biden is toast.

    The other side doesn’t care that they’re turning out to vote for an obvious criminal. Hell, they think that’s badass.

  124. 124.

    Geminid

    June 23, 2023 at 9:43 pm

     

     

    @Matt McIrvin: I think Cornel West will peel off very few Biden voters. He’ll win votes from lefties who theoretically should vote for Democrats but in practice never will.

  125. 125.

    Jeffro

    June 23, 2023 at 9:45 pm

    @Matt McIrvin: ask yourself which is more likely:

    Biden shrinks his margin in a state or two that he won in 2020.
    Biden increases his margin in a state or two that he won in 2020.

    We saw what happened in 2020…the 3rd party margin from 2016 nearly evaporated in the face of the threat from trump as a known quantity.

    Ok, so that was just asking for ‘off the cuff’ feelings.  Now add in:

    A Republican Party that is likely to be HUGELY, hugely fighting amongst itself this time around – if trump’s the nominee, how does he increase his vote?  If DeSantis is the nominee, how does trump NOT kneecap him the whole way through (to say nothing of running as an independent to keep the grift/chaos going)?
    Additional trump indictments, proceedings, trials, adding to #1 above.
    Inflation dropping, good job market, Ukraine strategy proving to be a winner, Biden infrastructure initiatives showing concrete results.
    General GOP insanity a la Boebert, Greene, Jordan, etc.
    And most importantly: DOBBS

    Or to put it most succinctly: who would you rather be, them, or us, heading into 2024?

  126. 126.

    Omnes Omnibus

    June 23, 2023 at 9:47 pm

    @WaterGirl: ​
      I think you know my opinion on that.

  127. 127.

    Manyakitty

    June 23, 2023 at 9:48 pm

    @Roberto el oso: it sounds like we all agree.

  128. 128.

    Manyakitty

    June 23, 2023 at 9:50 pm

    @Suzanne: holy shit. Can you bring that to the Ohio meetup? I’ll make some fancy pasta 🤤

  129. 129.

    Suzanne

    June 23, 2023 at 10:07 pm

    @Manyakitty: ZOMG pasta is my kryptonite.

    I will def bring some salad…. but it was actually super-easy. The kale, broccoli slaw, and Brussels sprouts are common produce department items, and the dressing was just a 1:1 of olive oil and red wine vinegar, plus some Italian seasoning, red pepper flakes, and a teaspoon of Dijon. Whole thing, including washing the salad spinner, took ten minutes.

  130. 130.

    Brachiator

    June 23, 2023 at 10:25 pm

    @Jay:

    If you walk away from an unsecured loan, as long as you don’t make any payments on the loan, (debt), no matter how many vulture companies they sell it to, after two years, it’s dead.

    In the US, often if the lender “forgives” the debt on certain types of loans, the individual is issued a Form 1099C and is expected to include the amount of the cancelled debt as income on their tax return.

  131. 131.

    El Muneco

    June 23, 2023 at 10:36 pm

    @Jeffro: I don’t share his pessimism but his concern is more than rational:

    • Third party shenanigans will draw more support from D than from R, and more than in 2020
    • The improvement in the economy is _not_ being reflected in how the MSM is reporting the economy
    • Corollary: The Fed wants to slow down the economy in order to “curb” inflation, and their measures will likely take maximum effect in summer-fall 2024
    • Indictments of TFG cause his support to go _up_ among Republicans, leading to the possibility that, despite all sanity, he might not have maxed out RWNJ turnout
    • Support for gender equality issues is down. Misogyny and queerphobia is up. Defections from overly-macho Black and hispanic subgroups are real.
    • Dobbs was the major talking point that was being ignored by MSM in 2022, but similar issues in the past have not necessarily shown legs to be decisive over multiple years.
    • Neither party has a floor lower than 42% in a Presidential election.

    Just like in 2016, there’s a lot of room for losing support in the generic ballot.

    And like Matt mentions, Biden is playing defense. There are minimal pickup opportunities, and the decisive votes in 2020 in swing states could fit in the largest soccer stadiums.

    Biden is a favorite, possibly a decisive one. But anyone who thinks that TFG has less than the Red October “one chance in three” is fooling themselves.

  132. 132.

    Expatchad Putin has become Stalin, the destroyer of worlds

    June 23, 2023 at 10:41 pm

    @Juju: REQUIESCAT IN LARGE PIECES

  133. 133.

    Geminid

    June 24, 2023 at 6:29 am

    @Gvg: Not sure how current this critique of US Navy capabilities is. The two destroyer collisions occurred in June and August, 2017. The constraints on US DOD funding were lifted not too long after that, and defense spending has increased a lot since.

  134. 134.

    Another Scott

    June 24, 2023 at 10:38 am

    @Geminid:

    USNI.org (from May):

    The following is the May 2, 2023, Government Accountability Office report, Military Readiness: Improvement in Some Areas, but Sustainment and Other Challenges Persist.

    Readiness ratings increased in the ground domain and declined in the sea domain from fiscal year 2017 through fiscal year 2021—the most recent data at the time of GAO’s analysis—with mixed changes in the air and space domains.

    GAO’s prior work has identified a wide range of persistent challenges in each domain as the Department of Defense (DOD) seeks to improve readiness.

    Looking to the future, DOD will have to balance rebuilding the readiness of its existing force with its desire to modernize. DOD is developing and deploying new weapon systems and considering new approaches for how its units organize and operate. However, DOD will depend on much of today’s force for decades to come, requiring continued focus on the readiness of its existing forces.

    (Emphasis added.)

    The DoD is huge. The Navy is huge. They get lots of money. But not enough to do the job that they’ve been assigned to do. It will take decades and lots more money to get them to the level that they (and we) need them to be if they’re ever needed in a serious conflict.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

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