The BBC reported on a 2018 email exchange between Rob McCallum, a deep sea expedition consultant, and OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush, who perished along with four passengers in the Titan sub implosion:
“I think you are potentially placing yourself and your clients in a dangerous dynamic,” [McCallum] wrote to the OceanGate boss in March 2018. “In your race to Titanic you are mirroring that famous catch cry: ‘She is unsinkable'”.
“We have heard the baseless cries of ‘you are going to kill someone’ way too often,” [Rush] wrote. “I take this as a serious personal insult.”
“Until a sub is classed, tested and proven it should not be used for commercial deep dive operations,” [McCallum] wrote in one email.
“I implore you to take every care in your testing and sea trials and to be very, very conservative,” he added. “As much as I appreciate entrepreneurship and innovation, you are potentially putting an entire industry at risk.”
In his response a few days later, Mr Rush defended his business and his credentials.
He said OceanGate’s “engineering focused, innovative approach… flies in the face of the submersible orthodoxy, but that is the nature of innovation”.
Jeebus. That will be compelling evidence in the upcoming lawsuits.
Open thread.
MattF
A thread on underwater acoustics from a former navy pilot.
SiubhanDuinne
I’m naming my new garage band “The Arrogant Billionaires.”
Baud
Not quite Famous Last Words, but it’ll do.
AM in NC
“Move fast and break things” is a hell of a task mistress at depth.
Eunicecycle
And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why we have regulations. And why Rush had to launch Titan in international waters.
Tom Levenson
The FO phase of FAFO was swift, decisive, and unforgiving.
This was a predictable (predicted!) outcome, which makes this almost a quadruple murder-suicide. Death-by-bro-itude.
Baud
@Eunicecycle:
?
Domestic waters are way to far to reach the Titanic even if the sub had been up to par.
bbleh
Ever been skydiving — even tandem, where you’re basically a meat sack strapped on the front of the guy who actually wears the parachute — and sat through their lectures and signed their paperwork? It’s pretty explicit, very much including somebody saying directly to you in several ways you could die.
I wouldn’t be surprised if these people had everybody who’s ever set foot in that thing sign releases and acknowledgements and assumptions of liability and every other thing a lawyer could think of, in blood, with witnesses, on video. And yes I know that wouldn’t necessarily release them from all liability for, say, exercising reasonable diligence and not building a death-trap, but I’d also guess the releases were absolutely brimming with language about novel this and uncertified that and generally putting as much risk as possible on paper and saying you acknowledge and you own and did we mention you could die
(But, given that the company’s basically kaput now anyway, I’d also be willing to bet they’re just gonna declare bankruptcy and try to walk away. Won’t stop lawyers from chasing them personally, but then you gotta pierce the corporate veil etc etc, and the whole thing ends up doing nothing but making a couple lawyers rich.)
trollhattan
Rich folk lawyers will fillet whatever is left of the company and its principals in short order. “Move fast and break things” has no place in this sector, any more than in aviation.
Meanwhile, and in anticipation of Adam’s Ukraine post, what the everloving fuck is happening between Wager and the Russian military?
And yet.
As always, root for injuries.
narya
Yeah, my nephews texted me about this the other day; it sound like a complete nightmare.
On a more fun note, I have an extra gallon of milk (long story) so I’m gonna make mozzarella cheese (I already have rennet and citric acid) AND I’m going to make ricotta cheese out of the mozzarella whey. I’ve done the former before (and then used the whey in bread-baking), and I’ve made fresh-milk ricotta, but since I found out that ricotta is traditionally made from whey, I knew I had to try it.
AND I had subscribed to a patreon account that demonstrates a new embroidery stitch each week, complete with a sampler pattern, in the hope that I’d get back to fancy needlework. [Narrator: she’s still not doing fancy needlework.] The person who runs the account is moving very near me, AND she led me to a stitching group that meets about three blocks from me. Apparently the deities really want me to pick this back up again.
trollhattan
@bbleh: Last weekend I heard a report saying on P1 of the release docs the word death appears multiple times.
But that won’t protect them from the misrepresentation of their products and services.
SiubhanDuinne
@bbleh:
Oddly enough, I was looking — not even an hour ago — at photos of my own skydiving experience five years ago, and remembering that feeling of literally signing my life away before the jump.
Also, there was a compulsory video.
MattF
@narya: Fresh mozzarella is the best of the best. Find some tasty tomatoes.
Anonymous At Work
Pretty sure there’s around 10 bazillion waivers of liability that each client signed before making the trip. I remain to be convinced that the company was so blatantly dishonest that those waivers could be breached. A court case lasting 50 years might be able to tell, though.
Elizabelle
@Tom Levenson: Death by bro-itude. Too true.
narya
@MattF: I’m getting some heirlooms in next week’s farm share! I’ve made mozzarella before, but it was only mediocre; it’s clearly something that needs a bit of practice.
ETA: mediocre for fresh mozzarella, I mean–so, still pretty good.
Baud
@Elizabelle:
Bromocide?
Broslaughter?
matt
Is he on the side of the orcas?
SiubhanDuinne
@Baud:
Broder.
Baud
@SiubhanDuinne: I thought that term refer to death by both-sidesism.
Elizabelle
@Baud: Pluto-slaughter? Plutocide??
it’s sad when the only saving grace to the story is that they all blew up, poof, very early into the saga. Before the rest of us even knew of their situation, that company, and their names. It was frightening to think of people suffocating in a submersible coffin. We were all spared that.
Butch
@MattF: The hard cheeses I’ve made so far have been so-so but the fresh mozzarella is the best (tomatoes, basil, and olive oil, please); the cream cheese and yogurt also have been outstanding.
Suzanne
@AM in NC:
This is why I have such a hard time with the software and tech industry calling themselves “engineers” and “architects”. We don’t move fast or break things, and for very good reason. Shit needs to last, or people die.
rikyrah
WHO IS THIS??
ADAM….please tell us who this man is.![]()
![]()
![]()
![]()
![]()
Is he for real?
Anne Applebaum (@anneapplebaum) tweeted at 8:14 AM on Fri, Jun 23, 2023:
Prigozhin, the leader of the Wagner group, is now saying that all of the publicly stated reasons for the Russian full-scale invasion of Ukraine are false. In fact, after plundering the Donbas for eight years, the Russian elite got greedy and wanted more:
(https://twitter.com/anneapplebaum/status/1672231683087540226?t=Gp7W7-waoxri-3E9n_6rZA&s=03)
MattF
@Baud: Wikipedia has a List of Unusual Deaths.
OzarkHillbilly
@narya: I’d be careful if was you. The gods just love f’n with people.
rikyrah
The libertarian who saw regulations and standards as impediments
The absolute arrogance
We know…MAXIMUM OF 10% of what’s in the ocean.
10%
The phucking arrogance to think that you can defy the rules of the ocean ‘ just cause’.
That’s the burial ground of 1500 souls. For that reason alone, it should be left the phuck alone.
SiubhanDuinne
@Baud:
It’s a homograph :-)
bbleh
@MattF: that’s way cool! Very dated, and I’ll bet digital processing “cleans up” a lot of it today, but there’s still the facts that it’s very noisy down there, a lot of things sounds like other things, water variations cause all kinds of distortions, and the distances are enormous.
I was thinking, though, that for ANY kind of manned submersible, it oughta make sense to have a dedicated acoustic distress beacon, with its own power source and trigger and so on, that puts out a REALLY LOUD ping at a VERY SPECIFIC frequency every, I dunno, minute or something, designed specifically to be very identifiable and very detectable at long distances, precisely in order to minimize all the difficulties in location and confirmation. I wonder if anybody’s thought about that.
(Of course, it wouldn’t have mattered in this situation by all accounts. And they probably would have dismissed it as needless red-tape something something. But still.)
Betty Cracker
@trollhattan: I was just reading something (BBC site, I think?) about a video rant from Prigozhin in which he blames the Russian defense minister he’s always ragging on (name escapes me — starts with an S) for duping Putin into authorizing the full-scale invasion in the first place. The article contained speculation that if Prigozhin remains in Putin’s good graces, the rant might be a Kremlin op to give Putin space for a climb-down but also noted the obvious drawback of that tactic making Putin look weak. Another line of speculation is that maybe Prigozhin is angling to overthrow Putin
ETA Beeb link. Presumably it refers to the vid rikyrah linked at #24. Will read Adam’s take with interest if he addresses it in an update.
gene108
When does Ocean Gate file for bankruptcy?
People that can pay $250k for deep dive to the Titanic wreckage probably have families with access to good lawyers.
narya
@OzarkHillbilly: Oh, I know . . . but at least embroidery is with needles, unlike, say, knitting, which goes all-in on pointy sticks. And I have so! much! thread! already, I should be able to avoid buying more stuff for the time being.
mrmoshpotato
Narrator: And he did – 4 people – and himself.
Eunicecycle
@Baud: Blech, I was just repeating something I read. I probably shouldn’t comment when I don’t know what I’m talking about.
oldster
I have a tiny bit of sympathy for the captain who went down with his ship. Certainly makes me wish that Skum had been in every tesla that self-conflagrated. And that the entire Sackler clan would live out their last months addicted to oxy and dying from it. And so on for every other Master of the Universe who sends others off to die while they stay at home to profit.
Eolirin
@trollhattan: Move fast and break things has no place in any product category. It’s an okay mentality when you’re trying to build something new and are still in the experimentation phase, or a general philosophy of coding. Fail fast is a better formulation though. You want to be able to weed out what doesn’t work, identify things you can fix quickly, and not spend a lot of time going down blind alleys.
But it has no business being applied to shipping products.
KrackenJack
Hope that trip was the last item on their bucket list. If not, at least they got a very prominent burial at sea.
It’s a rather extreme variation on “soak the rich.”
I do feel bad for the teen who was apparently guilted into going by his father.
bbleh
@trollhattan: right, and seems to me then the questions would be, (1) to what degree DID they misrepresent or hand-wave or whatever, vs. inform completely to enable a fully informed choice, and (2) is it even POSSIBLE to “enable a fully informed choice” in such a technical matter, or is there some un-releasable assumption of “reasonable due diligence” or some other formula?
Eh, they’ll try to settle &/or declare bankruptcy. And then change their names and move to Brazil.
azlib
I parachuted once when I was 18 and foolish. At that time, you at least had control over your own parachute. The jump was solo on a static line. They at least trained you how to deploy the reserve chute. I remember clearly how dangerous this al was and observed the airplane pilot had a chute on.
Anonymous At Work
@rikyrah: He is Puck Goodfellow to the vory of Russian government: Putin’s ultimate psycho used as an enforcer and given the power to say anything he wants. Shoigu thinks about making all mercenaries into part of Russian military structure, so Wagner captures and tortures a colonel and releases the video. You cross Putin, he’s given the privilege of making you suffer.
That’s the only explanation I have for why he isn’t in the Moscow Balcony Skydiving Club.
Eolirin
@Suzanne: Please don’t confuse startup culture with programming as a discipline.
Good programmers don’t ignore this stuff, it’s built into how they think about building their code. Code which sometimes will form the backbone of vital services that other code will build off of for decades, and the failure of which can be catastrophic in some cases. And shoddy software absolutely can kill people.
Also unless you want to stop calling the engineers working on this sub engineers, or the Boeing engineers who decided a software fix was a good way to handle an issue with a design flaw in one of their planes, or the chemical engineers who came up with pfas or leaded gasoline, this mentality isn’t isolated to programmers.
Snarki, child of Loki
@matt:
Orca sez “nom nom nom”, and thanks for all the richy-rich morons.
Amir Khalid
Why does my girl Aoife like to demand playtime at 3:00am?
Also too, I became a great-uncle today. My nephew (older sister’s son) and his wife welcomed their first child, a boy, in Alor Setar, Kedah today.
MattF
@Betty Cracker: I was re-reading Terry Pratchett’s Thief of Time last night, where he introduces the Fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse, Chaos. I think that’s Prigozhin’s goal.
Thief of Time is my favorite Pratchett book. You also get Death, Death’s granddaughter Susan, Time, and Time’s mother and father.
OzarkHillbilly
@MattF: It’s lacking. I failed to find the one where a guy was killed by a box turtle. (apparently a large raptor had dropped it to break open on the sidewalk below.
Then there was the guy who was driving thru a wildlife park and a giraffe was blocking his progress. He honked and honked to get the giraffe to move but all it dead was turn and put a fore hoof thru the idiots chest.
There was also the Yellowstone tourist who was upset at a bison for laying down on the job when he wanted a picture. He walked up to the bison and…. You guessed it, he kicked it. End of tourist.
Splitting Image
@bbleh:
The difference between sky-diving and deep-sea exploration though is that sky-diving became a recreational sport after years and years of testing by the military. Both the airplanes and the parachutes received thousands and thousands of field tests and came out of World War II as tested and proven technologies.
And doing it for fun is still dangerous enough that you had to sign a waiver.
Deep-sea submersibles never got those thousands of tests because military submarines generally weren’t built to go that deep. When the first submersibles were built, it was uncharted territory.
In spite of that, professionally-built submersibles have a very good track record, with no loss of life. Spitting on the experience and documentation that was built up over the years by other deep-sea explorers wasn’t just dangerous, it was insane.
Gravenstone
@rikyrah: The problem with thrill seeking is sometimes the thrills hit back.
Parfigliano
@trollhattan: Russians killing Russians. Whats not to like.
Tom Levenson
@Amir Khalid: congratulations to you and the parents and baby!
RedDirtGirl
@Amir Khalid: Congratulations!
Amir Khalid
@Betty Cracker:
It seems clear to me that Prigozhin and Shoigu are jockeying for position in Russia’s post-Putin order, which they both anticipate will soon be upon them.
OzarkHillbilly
@narya: My wife bought a cricut machine and now she is obsessed with making gift cards for everyone and every occasion. I don’t complain tho, it keeps her out of my hair.
:-) :-) :-)
RSA
@Eunicecycle:
Could you be remembering this?
The company seems to have avoided a U.S. registered ship to bypass U.S. regulations.
Baud
@Amir Khalid: Awesome. Lucky nephew.
OzarkHillbilly
@Eunicecycle: That never stops anybody else.
Betty Cracker
@Amir Khalid: Congrats, Great-Uncle Amir! ;-)
moonbat
Well, at least Mr. Underwater Engineering Rules are for Lesser Mortals went down with his own ship. A shame it wasn’t a solo ride.
Delk
Will the eventual cover up be called ocean gate-gate?
OzarkHillbilly
@Amir Khalid: Congrats to you and the happy parents.
raven
@OzarkHillbilly: Did you know that football was dangerous?
Jay
@Amir Khalid:
Congrats,…. one more Balloon Juicer in the world,….. eventually.
Suzanne
@Eolirin: The engineer who signs their name to drawings for a bridge that falls down loses their license to practice engineering and never works again. That is obviously not to say that errors are never made, and best practices of course evolve over time. But it encourages a safety culture. And we establish those practices and rules in law. That safety culture is distinctly not present in far too much of that industry.
RSA
The NY Post has a copy of the OceanGate liability waiver online which does mention death quite often. It also includes the line,
OzarkHillbilly
@raven: I read that somewhere but I didn’t believe it.
oldster
@OzarkHillbilly:
Death by turtle dropped on head: it’s listed on that page attributed to the Athenian playwright Aeschylus.
Dorothy A. Winsor
@Suzanne: Mr DAW is a mechanical engineer and he says you don’t want an optimistic engineer.
OzarkHillbilly
@oldster: Dammit, I remembered it as being recent. Hillbilly fail.
eta: where recent = ’80s or ’90s
Dangerman
@trollhattan: IANAL, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn … sometime in my life. My understanding is waivers in these situations ain’t worth the paper they are printed on.
raven
@OzarkHillbilly: And that spelunking, oi!
bbleh
@Splitting Image: Spitting on the experience and documentation that was built up over the years by other deep-sea explorers wasn’t just dangerous, it was insane.
Now you mention it, that might be legally true! It was SO stupid that they couldn’t have been aware how stupid it was, because nobody would do something that stupid. An insanity defense! Brilliant!
But seriously, not only was that stupid, but — de mortuis nil nisi bonum — seems to me if you’re gonna go submersible-ing you should check out the company first. I did for skydiving, which as you say is hardly novel tech, and even a cursory read on these folks woulda made me run fast in the other direction.
narya
@OzarkHillbilly: oooooh, that looks FUN. Luckily I have imposed rules on myself about bringing things into my home.
jonas
Anderson Cooper had Titanic director James Cameron on last night and Cameron did a remarkably good job at explaining why this OceanGate submersible was doomed from the beginning. (Remember, Cameron is a very experienced deep-sea explorer who has actually been to the Challenger Deep, which is nearly 3x further down than the site of the Titanic). The submersible’s carbon fiber construction, as opposed to steel or other rigid metal container material, is a composite, which stresses and delaminates over time at the insane pressures involves in a deep dive like this, eventually failing. Cameron was just kind of shaking his head — this was engineering 101 and these people thought for whatever reason they had outsmarted physics and nature.
bbleh
@jonas: it was carbon-fiber? omg. (Claustrophobe here, so haven’t been following the details.) That’s just … omg.
moonbat
Between this edgy entrepreneur destroying himself (and others, unfortunately) because no one can tell HIM what to do and the upcoming Musk/Zuck cage death match can it be possible that our billionaire overlords might soon destroy themselves in an effort to prove their questionable manliness?
West of the Rockies
@trollhattan:
Delightful. Hired killers get killed. The attacking, honorless, inhumane soldiers will experience payback.
Here’s a thought, creeps: don’t be heinous.
James E Powell
@azlib:
Parachuting was one of those things not really on a bucket list, but something I always thought I would do. Then I went parasailing in Maui. Thought it was great & close enough to skydiving that I no longer had the itch.
Now the riskiest thing I do is order spicy food.
WereBear
@AM in NC: Brilliant!
trollhattan
@OzarkHillbilly: This warrants encouragement! Have you seen what greeting cards cost? (They’ve basically gone up an order of magnitude, for no discernible reason.)
CaseyL
Hey, remember the lawsuit about the lady who was burned by McDonald’s coffee? Just about everyone made fun of the case, and the woman; and just about everyone didn’t know or bother to know the actual facts that led to the ginormous damages award.
It’s the difference between expected and unexpected risks.
In the McDonald’s case, it was the difference between ordinary hot coffee, which would maybe cause 1st degree burns, and the actual coffee at issue, which was literally boiling hot, caused 3rd degree burns, and required reconstructive surgery (and, IIRC, the trauma ultimately led to the woman’s death).
In this case, if the families hire really good attorneys, they can make the same case. The waivers cover expected risks. The lawyers can claim that “using the wrong materials for the ship hull,” and “refusing to use industry standard safety measures” and “refusing to get the submersible certified as safe” qualify as unexpected risks.
Yes, they knew what they were doing was dangerous.
No, they did not know the people in charge had made it 100 times more dangerous.
Eolirin
@Suzanne: That doesn’t make programmers not engineers. It doesn’t reduce the immense complexity of software architecture especially for larger projects. And those legal protections didn’t spring up full formed out of no where; people were operating without them for most of human history. Structural engineers and architects were still structural engineers and architects absent legal rules defining them as such.
Liability in software hasn’t caught up to the growth the industry has seen or the importance of what code means to modern living, and that’s a problem, but it has nothing to do with what the discipline actually is or how it functions. These are purely cultural and legal considerations.
Omnes Omnibus
@bbleh: When you sign that form before skydiving, you are acknowledging that you could die from all the usual dangers of skydiving. You are not saying that it is cool that your parachute is made from tortillas rather than silk or other normal parachute material.
ETA: I would never jump tandem. I have trust and control issues. I’ll pull my own ripcord TYVM.
patrick II
That jumped out at me. He is presented with reasonable doubts based on experience and prior good practice and his response is that it hurts his feelings. I feel an uncomfortable connection to that MAGA couple with the “Fuck Your Feelings” t-shirts. It was not all about you, Mr. Rush, except in your own mind.
oldster
@jonas:
I need to hear more about this part:
“The submersible’s carbon fiber construction, as opposed to steel or other rigid metal container material, is a composite, which stresses and delaminates over time at the insane pressures involves in a deep dive like this, eventually failing.”
I can believe all of that, but what does it mean for e.g. my carbon-fiber bike frame? Or e.g. the Boeing 777 that uses composites for its wings?
Maybe the answer is that the deep-sea forces really are orders of magnitude greater than the forces on a jet wing (and so greater than on a bike frame). On the other hand, the composite on this one-way submersible was reported to be 4 or 5 inches thick, whereas the composite on my bike frame is less than one millimeter thick, so that’s a couple orders of magnitude right there.
Maybe everyone who engineers carbon fiber composites already knew about this, and there is nothing new to be learned. But I want to hear more about composites delaminating under fatigue.
oldster
@OzarkHillbilly:
fifth century B.C.? I know — it *feels* so recent. The years just seem to fly by when you’re my age!
Eunicecycle
@RSA: it might have been. I guess I twisted a few ideas in my memory. But anyway he was purposely trying to avoid oversight. Thanks for posting that article.
Mallard Filmore
@rikyrah: It’s hitting the YouTubes:
https://youtu.be/w1DQ_KVQwzo
title: “Wagner DECLARES WAR on RUSSIAN ARMY”
(a short 2m 23s long)
Elizabelle
I am thinking that the passengers rationalized the trip because “Mr. Titanic,” who had made dozens of dives to the site, was on board. That gentleman being a retired French naval officer. (And friend of James Cameron.). Paul-Henri Nargeolet, if I’ve spelled his name properly.
Eunicecycle
@OzarkHillbilly: I could start a trend! Nah.
WereBear
I watched a video from a retired Navy submariner, who described three ways this could go terribly wrong,
It wasn’t the video game controller — so anyone could run the sub. Which wasn’t hard-wired in.
Bluetooth only. On a controller that was so crappy it spawned a class action suit.
But hey, it might have been the aftermarket addition of a viewport that was not rated for those depths, or the carbon fiber body, likewise.
They might not even be able to tell which part failed first.
trollhattan
@bbleh: I’m sure Boeing could say a thing or three about the challenges presented by the 787 fuselage, and the need to have each inspected after some set number of flight cycles.
These folks had no such restraints and the stresses of each dive cycle make those of an aircraft seem comical.
The end caps survived, those are titanium.
Elizabelle
@oldster: It’s the pressure. What works for aerospace, and Rush was an undergrad aerospace engineer (and young airline pilot) educated at Princeton, will not necessarily work at the greater
deathsdepths!Elizabelle
@trollhattan: your last sentence says it all
Dangerman
The composites thing is OK; the trick with composites is you have to carefully inspect the article after every use. I don’t know how you inspect a 5 inch thick filament wound vessel but, if it can’t be inspected, you can’t use it
ETA: NDT doesn’t have to be fancy. Coin tap tests work. Although for the application and the 5 inches, it better be fucking fancy (some form of ultrasound).
WereBear
@Tom Levenson: I actually got the most upset when Mr WereBear told me that one investor’s son didn’t want to go as the fourth, but his father insisted.
Damn.
OzarkHillbilly
@raven: 3 days before my first wedding I got picked up by a Buick sized rock, thrown against a wall as it rolled end over end, and then tried to crush me and 2 fellow cavers. All I got out of it was a twisted/banged up knee. Definitely my closest brush. One of the others was a Navy vet during Vietnam. His destroyer had collided with an aircraft carrier and he said when he saw the boulder coming at him it was the exact same feeling.
Ishiyama
I can only confess that the first thought that popped up in my mind when I heard about it was the title of my childhood book, “Danny Dunn on the Ocean Floor”.
bbleh
@CaseyL: IIRC in that case there was also ample evidence to show that McDonald’s knew that they were making it much hotter than people were used to (maybe there had been a few previous cases? I don’t remember).
M31
just saw this video, from a youtuber guy (who seems to mostly do magnet fishing videos?) who was given a free ride on the Titan in return for a publicity video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-8U08yJlb8
take a few days before the fatal trip, his got canceled since the weather was bad or there was a tech problem, oof, it’s all cheery and ‘wow this is cool’, they got down to 30 feet and no more, thankfully for him
WereBear
@rikyrah: She wrote a stunning book on the Gulags. She knows her Russian stuff, I can tell you.
Kayla Rudbek
@oldster: I know at least one person who has had their carbon fiber handlebars crack in half a while after hitting a pothole hard. Neither Mr. Rudbek nor I trust carbon fiber for bicycles or bicycle parts.
Of course, tandem bicycles eat parts at a much faster rate than single bicycles do.
OzarkHillbilly
@narya: My wife loves it. She’s very creative and it allows her to fly her freak flag high. She’s big on knitting and crocheting too.
Jay
@oldster:
in deep diving, the pressure vessel cannot compensate internally for the outside pressure with out turning human occupants into mush.
So the pressure vessel needs to be strong enough to withstand the external pressures, while maintaining an internal pressure of normal atmosphere.
The USN’s current Deep Sea Rescue Vehicle, has a drop forged, milled out titanium hull 5 inches thick.
Under the sort of pressure changes that the sub would encounter, the carbon fibre would delaminate from the resin. It had already been repaired 3 times for this delamination.
Your bike frame is probably fine, but like a Lotus, if there is some kind of accident, probably unrepairable.
M31
was it this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dka29FSZac
This guy know what he’s talking about and (this was released before the fact of the implosion was known) and finishes up the video saying “I’m sorry all these people are dead”
OzarkHillbilly
@trollhattan: She plans on doing exactly that when she retires.
bbleh
@Dangerman: right. not a materials engineer here, but I’m pretty sure I’ve read about parts made of composites failing suddenly — like just cracking into a couple pieces — because of repeated high stresses or vibrations, and the importance of inspecting — and replacing! — them more frequently.
I’m more sold on the sudden-implosion thing now, and not wondering whether it’s just happy-talk.
H.E.Wolf
@Amir Khalid:[new baby in family]
Alhamdulillah!
raven
@OzarkHillbilly: Brain scan results back:
Impression
No definitive evidence of Parkinson’s disease
H brain following IV injection of 4.6 mCi ioflupane. FINDINGS: There is distinct striatal activity bilaterally, minimally asymmetric but not sufficiently pronounced to warrant the diagnosis of Parkinson’s syndrome.
patrick II
@oldster:
The water pressure at the Titanic’s depth is about 4,800 psi. I wouldn’t worry about your bike unless you have gained a lot of weight.
p.s.
Air pressure at sea level is 14.7 psi, so an aircraft’s differetial between 14.7 and an absolute vacuum at height should still only max out somewhere near 14.7. That is a huge difference from the 4,800 psi at Titanics ocean depth.
SiubhanDuinne
@WereBear:
Had not heard that. Awful. Lordy.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
@narya:
Narrator: She may yet continue to defy the will of the Gods.
m.j.
@Delk: Heaven’s Ocean Gate.
CaseyL
@Amir Khalid: Congratulations on becoming a Great Uncle!
I have a possible reason for why kitties like to get up to hijinks in the wee hours: they are hunters by nature, and their favorite hunting times tend to be around dawn and dusk. 3:00 AM to Aoife may seem like the perfect time to get prepped for The Hunt – which looks like playtime to us.
WereBear
@Amir Khalid: Congratulations about the family additions, both human and feline :)
Here’s some help with the 3 AM Problem.
OzarkHillbilly
@oldster:
Ha!
WereBear
@Amir Khalid: Mr WereBear loves her name! He’s a pushover for anything Round Table.
Jay
@raven:
great news
SiubhanDuinne
@raven:
Well, that has to be a huge relief. Now that they know what it’s not, let’s hope they can soon figure out what it is.
raven
@Jay: Yea, I was a bit edgy.
Roger Moore
@Anonymous At Work:
If they materially misrepresented the safety of their submersible in their marketing material, they should be liable no matter what they put in the legal fine print. I know this isn’t the way the law currently works, but the current system is broken. “Marketing claims, legal disclaims” is no way to run a system of commerce.
oldster
@patrick II:
You should see the pressure that I have to pump up the tires to!
schrodingers_cat
@Elizabelle: Also air and water are both fluids , but water is far more denser than air, almost 1000 times more dense.
SiubhanDuinne
@Amir Khalid:
Congratulations, Great-Uncle Amir! A lovely bit of news for you and your family.
Also, I haven’t yet congratulated you on your new four-pawed boss. And I love her name — Aiofe. Very happy for you
mrmoshpotato
@Kayla Rudbek: I love the carbon fiber fork blades on my aluminum road bike. Mainly because they broke (and dissipated all that energy) instead of my body when I hit a car years ago.
I agree with you about the carbon fiber handlebars. Though I think I’ve ridden a friend’s bike with carbon fiber bars.
raven
@OzarkHillbilly: The USS Evans, I know an Aussie who was on the Melbourne, the ship that cut it in half. They send a crew member to the states for memorial services.
raven
@SiubhanDuinne: Thanks, they found a lesion on my cervical spine so we’ll look at that next.
OzarkHillbilly
@raven: Well, that’s better than bad news. OK news?
eta: reading other comments, good news.
patrick II
@oldster:
I hope they are steel belted.
WereBear
@moonbat: We can live in hope. Because the profit potential would be enormous!
raven
@OzarkHillbilly: Yea, it doesn’t solve my issues but I did not want to go down that road. I’m pretty happy right now.
RandomMonster
You’d think in that if you are the CEO of a company making those vehicles, you might have a proper and healthy respect for the term “crush depth”.
(I worked on PC submarine simulations a long time ago, and my knowledge would be generously described as hobbyist/layman level. But there’s no way I’d get in something that isn’t properly rated for the depths you’re headed into. And actually, in the case of the Titanic, you couldn’t pay me to make that trip at all.)
JWR
I was immediately put off by the name “OceanGate”. Reminded me too much of “Heaven’s Gate”.
Now off to get the trusty old ’95 Corolla smog tested. ($90? WTF?)
jonas
@Dangerman: Evidently they used some special acoustic sensor to alert the operator if something was starting to bend or buckle, assuming there would be time to abort and resurface. As Cameron explained in the segment, however, that’s like having an alarm on an airplane that tells you your engines have fallen off. Once it goes off, it’s too late.
Joseph Patrick Lurker
Beyond the abysmally poor construction of this submersible vehicle, the idea of “Titanic tourism” strikes me as repulsive. I wish people would stop lumping this particular expedition in the same category as mountain climbing, sky diving, or some other high risk physical activity. These passengers were simply intending to visit a grave site which I find creepy and disturbing. What’s this fucking obsession some people have about getting a closeup look at the remnants of a horrific tragedy that took place over 100 years ago?
Out of the articles I’ve read about this incident, these comments hit the mark for me:
https://www.mediaite.com/tv/relatives-of-titanic-victims-share-their-disgust-over-shipwreck-tourism-on-cnn-why-do-you-have-to-do-that/
OzarkHillbilly
@raven: I’m not surprised you know the incident. Don only mentioned it the one time.
sab
It is amazing that there are fish swimming around quite happily at those depths.
RandomMonster
I went skydiving once. It was just terrifying enough that I never wanted to do it again.
Cameron
Was it Prigozhin who recently claimed that he was in touch with Ukrainian intelligence services to find out about his guys because he couldn’t get any info from the Russian military? I remember the story, but I don’t remember exactly who it was.
rikyrah
@Amir Khalid:
Congratulations :)
Enjoy that new nephew :)
WereBear
@M31: Yes! That’s the one.
jonas
@rikyrah: Anne Applebaum is a veteran journalist/writer (at the WaPo for a long time, iirc) specializing in Eastern Europe/Russian affairs. In the 00s, she was sort of neocon-y, but she knows Russian stuff very well and has had Vladimir Putin’s number for a long time.
Stuart Frasier
@Omnes Omnibus: I did two tandem jumps before starting AFF and getting my skydiving license. Tandems are a whole lot safer than solo jumps, by about an order of magnitude. The instructors are very experienced and current and they don’t take any additional risks.
rikyrah
No lie told.
Terry Lee Watkins Jr. 王瑞民![]()
![]()
(@TerryWatkinsJr1) tweeted at 9:57 PM on Mon, Jun 19, 2023:
Candace Owens is Clarence Thomas’s horcrux.
She orates perfectly what his soul desires and can only communicate through rulings.
(https://twitter.com/TerryWatkinsJr1/status/1670989250731585536?t=EwrVGIqSxxw8fuOaLap4Qg&s=03)
Dangerman
@bbleh: right. Composites fail spectacularly. And I don’t wanna be too gross, and death was instantaneous, but each one of those fibers at the failure turn into tiny razor blades.
James E Powell
@oldster:
That was the explanation. According to people on TV who appear to know, the water pressure at the depth of the Titanic wreck is ~6,000 psi. Sea level is 14.7 psi.
David 🌈 ☘The Establishment☘🌈 Koch
@Delk:
deep water gate
WereBear
@sab: They can’t visit the surface, though.
trollhattan
Bikes! The original gram-weenies. First time I ever even saw titanium or carbon fiber was bike components I bought “because.”
Have several bikes comprising frames of steel, aluminum, titanium and very recently (like two weeks ago) CF. Couple of carbon forks, three carbon bars, one carbon seatpost, one carbon crankset. No sudden failures (whistles past the ER doors).
Sudden failures I’ve had include saddle rails and saddle mount bolts, a freehub shell, and very memorably, an aluminum crank arm that sheared while I was riding in traffic, clipped in. That was fun.
Watched the international downhill mountain bike championships a few years back and was impressed by how a carbon fiber bike, or wheel, can land wrong and disintegrate. They wear all that gear for good reasons.
Matt McIrvin
@oldster: I keep thinking of a bit from Futurama that went something like
“How many atmospheres can we take?”
“Well, this is a spaceship, so we should be good for anything up to one.”
The deep sea is really a wholly different pressure environment from anything you’re going to encounter in the sky.
Jay
@Cameron: that was the Chechen, looking for his dead brother, Kadarov.
Jay
@Stuart Frasier:
I still jump every two years, just to keep my certs up.
danielx
So the guys who knew the risks (over 50 former submariners and the like) weren’t “inspirational”.
Why do I think Stockton Rush, an Ayn Rand character name if I ever heard one, was a huge Elon Musk fan? Too bad Musk hadn’t decided to take a ride…
trollhattan
@RandomMonster: Spouse has a client on full military disability because he somehow survived a jump featuring a chute failure. The “Why jump out of a perfectly working airplane?” mantra is also mine.
Scout211
Well, well, well. The more we know about RFK,jr . .
M31
holy shit, on a previous dive, they figured out that one of the thrusters was installed backwards (while at 13000 feet deep)
https://www.reddit.com/r/CrazyFuckingVideos/comments/14gj0vk/on_a_previous_dive_the_crew_of_the_titan/
so they had to make some calls and figure out how to remap the video game controller to work correctly
W.T.F.
Elizabelle
@raven: That is great news. Artie wants to take you on a celebratory walk.
Cameron
@Jay: Thanks.
Matt McIrvin
@trollhattan: The 787 fuselage has had a lot of issues–the project was delayed several times by problems with structural cracks, which seem to have been dealt with. But it’s not operating in anywhere near this environment.
(I just rode on one of those for the very first time recently. Nice plane.)
Roger Moore
@Anonymous At Work:
Well, he does also have an army of mercenaries, so he’s probably a bit harder to get to than most members of that club.
Kristine
@oldster: @jonas: Here’s a link to a Cameron interview.
The carbon fiber laminates because it’s built layer upon layer. It’s not a solid piece.
Roger Moore
@Amir Khalid:
So you’ve graduated to great uncle to great-uncle?
RandomMonster
You are wise!
Jay
@trollhattan:
back in the day, had a sailboat.
Severe weather helm.
That was because the rudder was just an approximation of a wing shape, formed of styrofoam, with a single layer of fiberglass.
I built a carbon fiber/amerid, NACA 14 rudder to replace it.
Solved the problem. Current owner says it’s still going strong, 30 years later.
raven
@OzarkHillbilly: It was horrific, I didn’t know about it until I met “Knobby” (he lost a finger in a mining accident). Speaking of adventurers, Knobby’s brother built a replica of a yacht and set out from Safety Bay never to be heard from again.
OzarkHillbilly
Shit be happenin in Russia just now.
nickdag
@Baud:
Hilarious comment! lol’d for real. :)
Omnes Omnibus
@raven: Good to hear.
Jay
@Cameron:
I do HALO. That takes some scheduling.
I try to do a water jump every 4 years.
narya
@OzarkHillbilly: Technically, I know how to knit and crochet, but I suck at both, unfortunately. But I’ve done all kinds of fancy needlework (petit point, needlepoint, embroidery, crewel) and that’s really more my jam. My maternal grandmother started teaching me cross-stitch when I was five (she could do any type of needlework and worked as a dressmaker/alterations), and I’ve picked it up and put it down multiple times in my life. I’ve avoided it recently because I don’t want to have more stuff, but then I thought if I do get going, I could auction things off for some charity’s benefit.
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony: Hah! For awhile, maybe, but the truth is I do enjoy stabbing something repeatedly and getting a pretty picture out of it.
sab
@WereBear: Nor would they want to. I remember in childhood being horrifyingly fascinated with tales of giant squid v huge whale confrontations. Those could only have been above 2000 feet. The really deep sea squids stay deep?
Betty Cracker
@Joseph Patrick Lurker: Interesting perspective. I’d probably feel that way if it were my relatives entombed there. But on the other hand, the entire planet is a graveyard, no? Should Pompeii have been left undisturbed? Should archeological digs cease if remains are found? It’s a complicated question.
OzarkHillbilly
@raven: I’m reading the Wiki page now. 74 dead, yeah, I’d call that horrific.
I suspect that happens a lot more than we can ever know.
Omnes Omnibus
@Stuart Frasier: I understand that. I still want to pull my own cord. I’ve also hated riding pillion on a motorcycle since I learned to ride one at 17. As I said, personal issues.
hueyplong
@Roger Moore: Your confidence in that dude’s safety in the midst of mercenaries exceeds my own. Yes, they’re in his hire, but the definition of “mercenary” kind of implies that he could be outbid for the “loyalty” of one or more of them.
In any event, the “Let them fight” GIF seems to apply here.
OzarkHillbilly
@narya: My wife is pretty good* at both, tho she does both with a mixture of European and American techniques. She learned from her mother and Aunts then learned more when she got here.
*tho she sucks at socks, knitted one for me that was a disaster and never knitted another. I tell her all the time, “I’m still waiting.”
raven
@OzarkHillbilly: From the memorial
And about his brother
Scout211
@Betty Cracker: Interesting response. Yeah, history is full of tragedies and also full of all kinds of burial grounds.
The first thing I thought was, I am fairly certain these folks have never met their relatives who died 111 years ago. But I could be wrong. They could be over 111 years old and they have great memories of them.
Omnes Omnibus
@Betty Cracker: There is a difference between academic/scientific research and tourism. Where one draws the line is a valid question.
SiubhanDuinne
@OzarkHillbilly:
Adam’s Ukraine update tonight is gonna be lit!
Baud
@Betty Cracker:
@Omnes Omnibus:
The Arizona memorial in Oahu asks “tourists” to regard it as a graveyard.
OzarkHillbilly
@raven: Thanx.
SiubhanDuinne
@Omnes Omnibus:
I believe I know what happened. When you were a kid you bit into a delicious-looking Toll House cookie, but someone had substituted raisins for the chocolate chips.
Splitting Image
@M31:
Thanks for the link.
I’ve seen the link before, but I finally had time to watch it. No question this gentleman knows his stuff. I hadn’t even thought about the possibility of an Apollo 1-style incident, but as he says, that’s why you hire experts who can warn you about it.
This vehicle needed a whole team of experts combing over it to fix any potential problems. Not hiring experts on principle made it a death trap.
danielx
@SiubhanDuinne:
Yep, that would do it.
different-church-lady
RUSH: “I break rules!”
RULES: “I broke Rush.”
mrmoshpotato
@SiubhanDuinne:
And switched the flour with oatmeal?
Jay
@SiubhanDuinne:
@danielx:
You could afford raisins????????
pat
OK, I’ve been reading about this carbon fiber being used to build a sub that will go to unimaginable depths and pressures, but nowhere have I seen a reason for this. Cheaper than titanium? Cheaper than aluminum? Good grief.
sdhays
@Joseph Patrick Lurker: Yeah, is there nothing worthy of “adventuring touring” in the vast ocean except the site of a well-publicized tragedy?
Omnes Omnibus
@SiubhanDuinne: I like raisins.
ETA: and oatmeal.
OzarkHillbilly
@raven: I’m a little surprised by this from the Wiki page:
pat
@sdhays:
That too. I feel really sorry for the family of the young man who DID NOT want to go.
And how about all those videos of the Titanic? Not good enough? Got to spend some time down there looking at where so many people lost their lives? Creepy.
different-church-lady
@Jay:
From what I read, they had a lot of sensors on the hull to give warnings if things were delaminating.
Now, I don’t know nothin’ about this stuff, but to my mind the only thing that would accomplish at 12,000 feet is to tell you you’re fucked some time ahead of when you actually die.
OzarkHillbilly
@different-church-lady: Darwin Award Nominee.
Baud
@Jay:
https://youtu.be/bBmLrIpWpNk?t=51
WereBear
@sab: We don’t know, do we :)
Jay
@mrmoshpotato:
hey, Phrab (inder) had/has food allergies.
At Xmas, baked my famous ginger sugar cookies for the Staff,
Made 6 for Phrab, separate. Potato flour, coconut flour, scalded milk to replace the egg. I forget what else.
He liked the gift, but waited until he got home to try them, because his epi pen was at home.
Ate one, liked it.
His sister, (no food allergies), scarfed the other 5 before Phrab could have a second.
different-church-lady
@OzarkHillbilly:
Not qualified, already had two kids.
WereBear
@OzarkHillbilly: To be fair, socks are very tricksy. A lot of men took their lumps. So to speak.
hueyplong
I’m inclined to let the bottom-of-the-sea tourism industry be the test subject for Ronnie Ray-gun’s Miracle of the Marketplace method of dealing with safety standards. Big Gubmint regulations for the other industries.
The Moar You Know
@oldster: they do. But the Titan wasn’t pure carbon fiber. It was FIBERGLASS wound with carbon fiber on the outside, which is the most dipshit combo I’ve ever heard of, and a recipe for delaminating and failure. I could not believe what I was reading. That’s literally taking a gas station storage tank, wrapping it in a few millimeters of carbon fiber, and saying “we’re good, time to take my homemade sub for a ride.”
Some back of the phone math: Sea level pressure inside of Titan, 15PSI, outside at depth, 4500PSI, internal volume pre crush, 720 cubic feet, post crush, 2.4 cubic feet. Temperature at crush: over 4000 degrees Fahrenheit. Those people truly didn’t have time to know they died and there aren’t going to be any organic remains.
RSA
The only thing I’ve read is that carbon fiber is lighter. Which, given the design of the submersible, doesn’t seem like a strong argument, but maybe it would be for different designs.
Elizabelle
@Jay: OK Jay. You know you are going to have to share the ginger sugar cookies recipe. The original one (and modified, if you like).
SiubhanDuinne
@Omnes Omnibus:
It’s an old joke/meme. Not meant to be taken literally.
Baud
@The Moar You Know: That’s a little unfair. What about all the times the sub didn’t implode?
different-church-lady
OT: So Silverman should have some interesting reading for us tonight.
HumboldtBlue
@Amir Khalid:
Uncling is the best, ain’t it? And great uncling is just more fun for old people.
mrmoshpotato
@Jay: Very nice of you.
How much did you have to reduce the recipe to make just 6 cookies?
trollhattan
@different-church-lady:
I realize it wasn’t a surface ship but naming it the Cost Cutter wouldn’t have been out of place.
Of many bizarre design items one was that when it surfaced it didn’t really, and would come to rest below the surface, which was a huge challenge for those looking for it topside and from the air. And with that let’s say you were trapped in it just below the surface and maybe thinking you’d like to swim for it, rather than suffocate slowly inside: nope. The only hatch was bolted from the outside after the passengers went in.
WereBear
@Baud: They built it from off-the-shelf parts. Reminds me of Windows.
I wouldn’t go out in a canoe that runs on Windows. On a warm day.
Something in the Navy steamed in circles for days. They learned some lessons.
trollhattan
@HumboldtBlue: It’s always the uncle who buys the drum kit.
WereBear
With SEVENTEEN bolts. The claustrophobic section of my mind has been counting to 17 since…
different-church-lady
@WereBear:
I wouldn’t even try to run Word on Windows, never mind a deep sea vessel.
Omnes Omnibus
@trollhattan: I wanted to buy a drum kit for my nephew, but my dad forbade it. His dad had given me a drum kit, so he was buying one for his grandson. I accepted his logic.
Mallard Filmore
@different-church-lady:
“I’m a bonb!”
“10”
“9”
“8”
…
Jay
@different-church-lady:
yup, sound sensors.
Morons.
Carbon fiber and amarid are great materials, properly used. A single layer of armarid will stop a .22 cal bullet.
But they require certain technical skills.
From what I have heard about how the hull was both constructed, and later repaired,
Yipes.
Before I built my rudder for my sailboat, I built a vacume table, (shop vac powered) so that there would be no voids in the laminate. Had an old fridge compressor motor saved up for permanent use, never got around to rigging it up.
I only spent 2 years reading everything I could get my hands on, before taking on the project.
Ruckus
@OzarkHillbilly:
Walking through the housing area of the south rim of the Grand Canyon once and all the kids playing looked past me, got very quiet and walked the other direction. I slowly turned around and there was an Elk standing behind me. About 5-10 feet away. His shoulders were over my head. His head and antlers were about another 4 feet high. I’d bet he weighed about 1500 lbs. He looked at me and I walked slowly and very quietly away, as I didn’t know his diet or if he had a mean streak. And really, really didn’t want to find out…
Geminid
@Cameron: Prigozhin also is the guy whose St. Petersburg troll farm propagated anti-Clinton disinformation during the 2016 election.
Uncle Cosmo
A fish swimming at 4000 meters is just as happy as one at 40 meters so long as its internal pressure is the same as the ambient water pressure at that depth – it hardly notices. Same for humans – lying down you have an effective surface area of between 1 and 2 square meters, and at sea level the weight of the air upon your body is between 10 and 20 tons, but because your internal pressure is the same as the external, you don’t even feel it except for the tiny differential contributed by a blowing wind. Still amazing though.
Roger Moore
@Jay:
That should be aramid (from aromatic amide), not amerid. /chemist
mrmoshpotato
@WereBear:
Nominated!
mrmoshpotato
@trollhattan: My nephew’s 6th birthday is coming up. Is drum kit a sixth year present?
Jay
@Elizabelle:
A) any sugar cookie recipe, add in fine chopped candied ginger and top with gingered sugar.
B) replace the egg with scalded milk, replace the wheat flours with a 50:50 mix of potato flour and coconut flour,
I whizz up raw ginger with sugar a couple of days before, and let it sit.
Omnes Omnibus
@mrmoshpotato: Yes.
Jay
@mrmoshpotato:
1/2, well maybe a bit less, had to taste test.
sab
@mrmoshpotato: Oatmeal is okay. That is just raisin oatmeal cookies. Someone was misinformed about the menu.
Actually I am confronting this now. Granddaughter scheduled for day two of cookies. Planned tollhouse might be too complicated. Oatmeal raisin? Some delicious rolled freezer cookie?
Also too grandpa’s birthday is next day. Involve her with birthday cake when I have minimal expereience with cakes? My last few tries have been okay. But traumatic angel food cake fifty years ago sucked away my confidence.
Maybe ask granddaughter which she wants to risk? She is nine and autistic, but she needs to have agency ( choices) in her family where whatever the outcome will be okay.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
@SiubhanDuinne:
Narrator: This was the first of many disappointments for Siubhan, and the first realization that monsters can be found in more places than the closet or under the bed.
Elizabelle
@Jay: thank you. Yum.
Jay
@sab:
Brownies?
trollhattan
@mrmoshpotato: It is, in the Kingdom of Tympanum.
What’s your general feeling towards the parents?
cckids
@bbleh:
It was hot enough that it was melting the styrofoam cups. They’d been cited more than once by the health dept for it as well.
mrmoshpotato
@trollhattan: I like my sister and brother-in-law, but it’s a funny thought.
Citizen Alan
@sab: A personal observation: All angel food is tragic
NotMax
Swap out submersible for automotive and the exact same thing could have been said sixty-six years ago of the (thankfully axed) Ford Nucleon.
Not to single out Ford for mockitude, also the ’57 Studebaker Astral.
;)
sab
@Jay: Thought of that for fun. That should be in her repetoire. But Grandpas birthday? Try and fail with good intentions? Or leave it for others?
trollhattan
Armor now rolling in Russian cities.
https://twitter.com/Maks_NAFO_FELLA/status/1672361791123234819?cxt=HHwWhoCx_YeMtrUuAAAA
https://twitter.com/Maks_NAFO_FELLA/status/1672364641270333441?cxt=HHwWgoC8nfuxt7UuAAAA
sab
@Citizen Alan: Mine ended up looking like cheddar cheese. I inch high and very dense.
trollhattan
@mrmoshpotato: And a 6YO has SO MUCH energy.
Sure Lurkalot
@Amir Khalid:
Being a great is grand! Congratulations!
WereBear
For me it was a yeast donut attempt that took place on a hot and humid day and dual cooks each added yeast.
It rose like something out of a Burt I. Gordon movie and we spend an hour scraping it off everything it had morphed over. Got it into a garbage bag and into the trash and cleaning up Mom’s kitchen when she came home… “What on earth is in the garbage?”
It was poking out of the garbage can. Ready for more prey.
Juju
@SiubhanDuinne: I hate oatmeal raisin cookies for that very reason.
NotMax
@sab
Easy-peasy cookies. 8.95 out of 10 on the yumometer.
Roger Moore
@Omnes Omnibus:
There’s also a difference between people whose identities we know and whose relatives we can contact and people who we know were people but that’s about it. If there were identifiable descendants or relatives of the people killed in Pompei, we would probably want to contact them and ask their opinion before digging there.
Ruckus
@oldster:
As a person who has been paid to build things most of my life, things that ordinary people use I understand that there are risks and ways to minimize the risks. One of those is to use proven methods, materials and designs. Carbon fiber is a very useful material for bicycles like many other materials, IF USED CORRECTLY. I have built bicycles mostly out of titanium. I was taught how and why it is done in certain ways. CF works well if designed and built properly. But that last sentence applies to most anything humans build. It takes knowledge and understanding of the process involved, the possible failure modes, the impossible failure modes – that still fail, the materials used and a many/much about the possible outcomes if it fails. And of course nothing man made is failure proof. As are most/all things made by nature. If designed reasonably the failures will be very rare or non existent. But they are always possible.
The failure of this deep dive ship is a case in point of all of the above. Use unproven material, untested design, bad material failure modes for the use and it would be amazing if it didn’t fail. Maybe not the first time, or maybe not the 5th time, but at some far sooner time than is reasonable. And someone knew that which is why the release forms were so blatant about the possible consequences.
There was no reason to build this out of carbon fiber other than it is newish technology and no one else had done it. But it’s failure mode made this a most asinine decision.
Your question about CF bicycles is valid. Most of the better brands do failure testing of the products because if for no other reason it is extremely bad business not to. They do this with other materials as well, for the same reason.
Kelly
@OzarkHillbilly: While climbing Oregon’s Mt Jefferson the guy above dislodged a washing machine sized boulder. I ducked behind a short ledge I was scrambling up. It bounced way over my head. Over too quick to scare 19 YO me. Underestimating mountain weather on a later trip was my moment of “are we gonna get away with this?”
Jackie
@WereBear: I had a bedside lamp I could turn on/off by touching the base. I LOVED the convince – especially to turn off when reading in bed.
Then my cat discovered he could turn it on with his nose. At 3 a.m. Of course the light woke me; I’d reach out and turn it off, grumbling. Drift back to sleep… 💡 I had to replace my touch lamp with the have-to-sit-up to turn on/off. I miss that cat dearly.
Frank Wilhoit
@Amir Khalid: Yes, but has Shoigu been filmed executing a deserter with the flat of a shovel?
Manyakitty
@Amir Khalid: congratulations on the new addition to your family! Welcome, baby!
Our cat Asimov likes to play fetch at just about any time, all night long.
NotMax
@Citizen Alan
Not as iffy as <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHW1VJ2Dco8"The Food of the Gods.
Best line: the penultimate sentence at the end of this short clip.
;)
NotMax
Whoops. Fixy fix for #248.
@a href=”https://balloon-juice.com/2023/06/23/unsinkable-open-thread/#comment-8879672″>Citizen Alan
Not as iffy as The Food of the Gods.
Best line: the penultimate sentence at the end of this short clip.
;)
Manyakitty
@Ishiyama: Danny Dunn books rocked!
Manyakitty
@raven: glad for a not terrible result!
Kristine
@WereBear:
::can’t stop laughing::
Though technically it was alive…
Jay
@sab:
A good brownie rules,
add ice cream if you want, ( I scream for Icecream)
but yeah, Brownie.
I go for spice cake, but I am weird like that.
At our wedding, we had Alton Browned Ribs, Mexican Roast Corn, Jay Salad,
and blackberry/ apple pie.
Manyakitty
@rikyrah: who did Thomas have to kill to make her?
NotMax
@Jackie
Ooh, had one of those on the bedside nightstand way, way back in the late 1950s. Tap the metal part of the base to switch it on, touch the metal part halfway up the lamp’s wooden body to switch it off.
Narya
@sab: King Arthur recipes are quite good. Check their site.
ETA or smitten kitchen
software designbro
@Eolirin:
Sure it can. Good on you for recognizing that. But without consequences that just makes you look good for doing something serious without actual skin in the game.
When software “engineers” and “architects” can lose their licensure, careers, lawsuits and even their liberty in cases of criminal negligence for such software, as they damn well should, then I might begin to think they have a standard of care and societal responsibility, expectations and professional ethical obligations for life safety and the public, something equivalent to what structural or civil engineers or (real) architects have.
Can you tell me at which accredited engineering or architecture school you earned your software engineering or design degree? Or in which state or states you are licensed to practice software, or when you sat for that licensing exam, or even which carrier covers your professional liability? Otherwise it’s hard to believe software developers have the same societal obligations and consequences.
There is no standard of care for software engineering or, gawd almighty, software architecture because like the title Software Engineer or Software Architect, the standard of care is whatever the company you work for decides it is.
They can title their software developers as “Software Guru” (and some companies actually have done this) or even Master of Time, Space and Dimension. Doesn’t automatically make you enlightened or God.
The Gang of Four were inspired by a real architect for the idea of OO software. But it doesn’t make them AIA.
Software designers love the status and cachet of “Architect”. Clients sure are impressed by it. It cashes in on status earned by actual Architects for being accountable to the public in their practice for life safety failures. Same with “Engineer”. It’s parasitical, unfortunately.
Manyakitty
@Narya: those plus Sally’s Baking Addiction for sure.
software designbro
@Amir Khalid: This sounds very likely.
James E Powell
@jonas:
She was totally neocon. She wrote a book expressing dismay that so many people she admired, including some her friends, turned toward authoritarianism. Like most right-wingers who have experienced a bit of an epiphany, she does not include an apology or even an acknowledgement of her role in producing a world receptive to authoritarianism.
mrmoshpotato
@trollhattan:
Oh. We know. We know.
Jay
@James E Powell:
Yurp.
OzarkHillbilly
@different-church-lady: Damn.
@WereBear: I know, but I still give her shit about it. Why? Because I can.
Maxim
@SiubhanDuinne: That is a deeply traumatic experience, to be sure.
KrackenJack
@Jay:
I have a recipe for an Applesauce Spice cake that originally came from an inflight magazine circa 1990. It’s been transcribed into a variety of media and formats. Best with chunky applesauce. Yum.
Mike G
Hey give Stockton a break, he was under a lot of pressure…of course, not as much as he is now
catclub
@Matt McIrvin:
 
What about the middle of the sun? or Jupiter?
OzarkHillbilly
@Ruckus: Good move. Here in STL, Misery we have a park named “Lone Elk Park” with several elk and bison. And every year somebody gets gored by an elk. And a bison.
Raven
@OzarkHillbilly: Yep, the swine.
Raven
@Baud: Remind me to tell you the story of my trip out there.
frosty
@Tom Levenson: Triple murder-suicide, one homicide. I read that the 19-year old was scared and didn’t want to go but his father persuaded him because Father’s Day. Heartbreaking. I hope it’s not true.
Maxim
@KrackenJack: Please to share. Spice cake is the best.
KrackenJack
@Maxim:
Happy to. However, it will be awhile. Is it ok to drop it into the next open thread?
frosty
@raven: That’s really good news on the Parkinson’s. That’s what did in my dad. My uncle and maternal grandfather had it too. So far I’ve passed the age when it showed up with them.
Hope to keep reading your comments for many more years!
Jay
@KrackenJack:
My Mom was a horrible 50’s cook, but she could bake.
So spice cake with butter cream icing for my birthday.
Maxim
@KrackenJack: Absolutely. Thanks!
Roger Moore
@James E Powell:
I respect Max Boot because he’s one of the rare neocons who has been willing to admit to his role in this stuff. He’s still way too conservative for my taste, but it’s really interesting to read what he wrote about why he was willing to go along with the whole conservative project.
Maxim
@frosty: My dad too.
Captain C
@M31: This submersible is sounding more and more like the kind of contraption one ‘designs’ with friends as a kid or tween, rather than a serious engineering project. The CEO’s attitude towards safety was pretty horrific, too.
David 🌈 ☘The Establishment☘🌈 Koch
Don’t ask for help
You’re all alone
Pressure
You’ll have to answer
To your own
Pressure
I’m sure you’ll have some cosmic rationale
But here you are in the ninth
Two men out and three men on
Nowhere to look but inside
Where we all respond to
Pressure
Chacal Charles Calthrop
@Narya: my favorite Smitten Kitchen recipe is actually oatmeal chocolate chip cookies: https://smittenkitchen.com/2020/09/whole-wheat-chocolate-oat-cookies/
NotMax
@Jay
Chris Johnson
@oldster: For what it’s worth, Cameron had a very good point: carbon fiber is for tension, not compression. Airplane wings have both. So do bike frames. Scuba tanks are all tension, they’re internal pressure and a natural match for carbon fiber.
Submarines are all compression. My jaw sort of dropped as I understood this point. To make a submarine out of carbon fiber… Zero Punctuation had a phrase, ‘pants-on-head retarded’…
KrackenJack
@Jay: The recipe I have is very rich, so I’ve never frosted it. I have put a schmear of softened cream cheese, however.
@Maxim: & Thanks. Having Peruvian for dinner
Boris Rasputin (the evil twin)
@KrackenJack:
I do feel bad for the teen who was apparently guilted into going by his father.
Half a million for a double burial at sea is pretty steep.
In a world of Remotely Operated Vehicles (ROVs) and a new super-sharp digital presentation of the wreck, this was beyond stupid. Almost 40 years ago Bob Ballard said “Tele-presence” in the form of ROVs was the future in the great depths. Too bad Rush didn’t get the memo.
Am I the only one who thinks it’s a bad idea to back tech pushed too far, too fast, sponsored by someone named “Rush”? I have no sympathy for him, and none for the others except the teen.
Kristine
@Chacal Charles Calthrop: Oh, I really need to make these.
Kayla Rudbek
@narya: what’s the Patreon account?
Matt
Let us not forget Mr. Rush’s great innovation: he invented a way to make billionaires deader than any humans ever before.
raven
@frosty: Thanks
Ken
Hydrogen is a metal.
If there’s any significant amount of water down there, it is ice — but only because the pressure makes it a solid; it’s at a temperature of over 20,000 kelvin.
Bruce K in ATH-GR
@WereBear: Minor nitpick: that game controller they showed off, controlling the sub? I have one of those. Technically, it’s not Bluetooth; it only talks to a proprietary wireless USB dongle thing plugged into a computer.
Still not all that trustworthy. Even if there’s something to be said for the form factor of a game controller, there are better models out there, and models that work off a wire so you don’t have to worry about the AA batteries powering the thing giving up the ghost.
WaterGirl
@Amir Khalid: Smart take.