Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Yeah, with this crowd one never knows.

I’m sure you banged some questionable people yourself. We’re allowed to grow past that.

When do we start airlifting the women and children out of Texas?

You don’t get to peddle hatred on saturday and offer condolences on sunday.

Sitting here in limbo waiting for the dice to roll

Republicans seem to think life begins at the candlelight dinner the night before.

I know this must be bad for Joe Biden, I just don’t know how.

I really should read my own blog.

But frankly mr. cole, I’ll be happier when you get back to telling us to go fuck ourselves.

New McCarthy, same old McCarthyism.

“Everybody’s entitled to be an idiot.”

It looks like winning debates is a black job!

People are complicated. Love is not.

There are consequences to being an arrogant, sullen prick.

“In the future, this lab will be a museum. don’t touch it.”

Republicans would impeach Biden if he bit into a whole Kit Kat rather than breaking the sections apart.

Impressively dumb. Congratulations.

We cannot abandon the truth and remain a free nation.

We won’t go back.

Whatever happens next week, the fight doesn’t end.

‘Museums aren’t America’s attic for its racist shit.’

Democrats have delivered the Square Deal, the New Deal, the Fair Deal, and now… the Big Joe Biden Deal.

If you tweet it in all caps, that makes it true!

President Biden is doing good where he can, and getting it done.

You are here: Home / Climate Change / Monday Morning Open Thread: The Maui Disaster

Monday Morning Open Thread: The Maui Disaster

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Liable to be another busy national-politics week, so I figured I’d post these sources now.

Gift (unpaywalled) Washington Post link — “How to help Hawaii residents displaced by Maui wildfires”:

… We’ve gathered some reputable organizations accepting donations to help those affected by the wildfires:

= The Office of the Governor of Hawaii has directed donors to the Hawaii Community Foundation.
= Verified fundraisers on GoFundMe are raising money to help residents rebuild and recover.
= The Maui Mutual Aid Fund is accepting donations to support Maui families, elderly residents, people with disabilities and those with limited or no insurance.
= Aloha United Way, a Honolulu-based nonprofit organization, has created the Maui Relief Fund that will go directly toward efforts supporting victims of the fires…
= The Maui Food Bank is providing meals for thousands of displaced residents.
= The Hawaii Restaurant Association is organizing donations and volunteer efforts on Maui and Oahu. You can sign up to join relief efforts on Maui here, or fill in forms to help evacuees transported to Oahu here.
= Animal shelters including Maui Humane Society and Hawaiian Humane Society are helping injured and displaced animals as well as assisting in reuniting missing pets with owners…


Reader Interactions

198Comments

  5. 5.

    ArchTeryx

    @Baud: This was Peshtigo writ small. Firestorm out of nowhere hitting a town composed entirely of wooden structures,  no warning and only one place to flee – water. The death count won’t be as high as Peshtigo only because it didn’t sweep across the entire state.

  6. 6.

    eversor

    I know it will happen, and I know I will lose my shit over it, but some conservative is going to state we can’t pay to fix this despite us constantly paying for red state natural disasters.

    Also dealing with charred bodies is grim.  They often partly crumble like so much ash.  Been a grip since I had to do it but I don’t envy that work.

    So to get that horse out of the barn already, suck my dick and fuck yourself Rand Paul!  If I was your neighbor, you’d have had more than a broken rib.*

    *This is not a threat.  As I’d never live in Kentucky, and I’d never be in the same room as Rand Paul.  I’ll never forgive his ass for saying NY and NJ shouldn’t get hurricane relief funds cause they have pensions.   Go sodomize yourself with a spiked and free the rabid weasle that sits on your head.  If you had any sense of dignity you’d sepuku yourself by now.  And have the sad feeling we are going to see more of that now.

  10. 10.

    eclare

    I know it happened, but it’s incomprehensible.  It seems like all the holes in the Swiss cheese matched up perfectly to create this disaster.

    And BTW, the estimate of 5.5B to rebuild is couch change.  Give it.

  11. 11.

    MomSense

    I’ve already seen conspiracy theories that this was man made and used as a way to steal Lahaina for the wealthy.

  12. 12.

    gene108

    @eversor:

    This is not a threat. As I’d never live in Kentucky, and I’d never be in the same room as Rand Paul. I’ll never forgive his ass for saying NY and NJ shouldn’t get hurricane relief funds cause they have pensions. Go sodomize yourself with a spiked and free the rabid weasle that sits on your head. If you had any sense of dignity you’d sepuku yourself by now. And have the sad feeling we are going to see more of that now.

    👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏

    The eloquence of this statement rivals Shakespeare.

    Yours Truly,

    NJ Resident

  13. 13.

    OverTwistWillie

    Land use changes – sugar cane production in the islands ended in the last decade, so no more yearly controlled burns.

  14. 14.

    Kay

    David Heath
    @davidhth
    Aug 7
    Of all the PragerU propaganda you’ve seen, this might be the worst.
    Frederick Douglass takes a dig at BLM while praising the founding fathers as abolitionists and calling the Constitution a “glorious liberty document.”
    Florida is letting schools play this stuff.

    If liberals had done this there would be 5 Substacks (all by middle aged white guys) and one full time NYTimes reporter devoted exclusively to the existential threat posed of liberals creating a fake US history.
    Instead? Not a peep out of them. The far Right are putting words in the mouth of AA historical figures and propagandizing 5 million public school students in Florida and none of our “public intellectuals” care. They’re too busy monitoring the 31 Yale law students who are not deferential to Right wing judges.

  15. 15.

    Suzanne

    @eversor:

    free the rabid weasle that sits on your head 

    Day: MADE.

    Give the money to rebuild, and make sure the building code is up-to-date!

  16. 16.

    Baud

    @Kay:

    Frederick Douglass is an example of somebody who’s done an amazing job and is being recognized more and more.

  21. 21.

    Kay

    @Baud:

    Not content with erasing the history of AA’s in the US, they will now replace actual AA people in history with composites of contemporary Right wing white people. Frederick Douglass sounds like Christopher Rufo and Ron DeSantis!

  22. 22.

    Ken

    I’m glad the Post collected those charity names, but it’s a depressing reminder that grifts and frauds spring up after these disasters. Speaking of which, I haven’t heard much about the George Santos case lately.

  23. 23.

    Baud

    @Kay:

    “I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed. We hold these truths to be self-evident that all men are created unwoke.”

  25. 25.

    NotMax

    Maui update (excerpted for brevity).

    Upcountry/Kula fire (initially reported 8/8): Now 60% contained. Estimated 678 acres. Three helicopters, four engines, two tankers and one utility are on-site. Hot spots in gulches and other hard to reach places, along with land divisions and fences, make this a difficult fire to contain.

    Lahaina fire (initially reported 8/8): 85% contained. Estimated 2,170 acres. Five engines, three tankers and one ladder are on-site. Search and recovery continues.
    Pūlehu/Kīhei fire (initially reported 8/8): Remains 100% contained. The Pūlehu/Kīhei fire was declared 100% contained Saturday. One Chinook, one engine, three tankers, two dozers, two utility on-site.
    .
    *Note: When a fire is 100% contained, that does not mean it has been extinguished. It means that firefighters have it fully surrounded by a perimeter. Once a fire is declared “extinguished,” then it’s over.

    FEMA has 416 personnel in the state of Hawaiʻi, including the Administrator.
    35 additional people coming from FEMA’s Urban Search and Rescue division.
    20 cadaver dogs will work the scene.
    .

    Maui Police Department [Sunday afternoon] confirmed fatalities remains at 93. On Sunday, Gov. Green said he does expect the numbers to rise.

    Lahaina: FEMA maps show 2,207 structures damaged or destroyed in Lahaina. Estimated cost to rebuild in Lahaina is projected at $5.52 billion.
    Kula/Olinda: There have been 19 homes destroyed in the wildfire that started Aug. 8, 2023, including three homes in Olinda and 16 in Kula. Estimated cost to rebuild in Upcountry is $434 million.
    .

    To expedite travel into West Maui, access placards will be distributed on Monday, Aug. 14, 2023. Maui Police say this is to ensure efficient traffic management and prioritize the safety of all road users.

    Placards will be issued based on the following categories:

    * West Maui Residents
    * West Maui Resort Personnel
    * First Responder Personnel
    * Medical Personnel
    * Utility Personnel
    * County of Maui Personnel
    * Supply Transport Personnel
    * Volunteer Personnel
    .
    Volunteers will be granted 72-hour access passes. At the end of the 72 hours, a new placard will need to be obtained.

  26. 26.

    lee

    Here is a WaPo link (not gifted) that gives an hour-by-hour description of the tragedy unfolding.

    I completely agree that the locals are 100% going to get fisted by the invisible hand of the free market after this is all over. I would not be surprised if commercial developers don’t already have teams on the ground there working to buy up property.

  27. 27.

    bbleh

    @Ceci n est pas mon nym: this is a real risk, not least because the economy was already hurting from COVID and a lot of individuals and businesses were stretched.  THESE are the folks that will need assistance in the medium term; the tourist trade will bounce back, but the local economy will take longer, and some people are at risk of dropping out completely (and selling out to “disaster capitalists”).  It appears that both the Feds and the state are on it and working rapidly, so with luck that will be minimal, but if you’re going to make a donation, maybe consider something other than immediate disaster relief.  The story will fade quickly from the media, but the need won’t go away.

  28. 28.

    J.

    Just donated a bunch of money to help the humans and animals on Maui. I’ve been reading about the fire for days and tear up every time. My heart goes out to the people of Lahaina.

  29. 29.

    lee

    I saw a comment on twitter that I thought interesting: Florida actually has an higher average relative humidity than Hawaii (90% vs 63%). So especially after the seas rise and start claiming parts/most of Florida it will probably be safer than other parts of the country from this type of disaster.

  30. 30.

    lee

    @bbleh: ​

    It appears that both the Feds and the state are on it and working rapidly,

    Biden had the declaration of emergency signed within 6 hours. It’s pretty great when you have a state and federal government that actually look out for their constituents and not try to score political points during a crisis.

  31. 31.

    WereBear

    Thanks, AL! I have shared the humane giving info since that is the angle my social media followers would give from.

    I have worked with the Maui humane shelter now and again, but I know they are lovely people. So that’s the human angle.

    Everybody needs help.

  33. 33.

    NotMax

    So, so grateful Tulsi Gabbard no longer represents the 2nd Congressional district, which includes Maui.

  34. 34.

    Soprano2

    This is all made harder by the fact that Hawaii is islands a long ways from the mainland. Most things have to come by boat or plane, making everything even more expensive.

    Sadly, there’s probably truth to the idea that wealthy people will buy up some of the real estate. They’ve already bought a bunch of it; my stepson joked that Oprah owned most of the Big Island. I don’t know how much of a hit tourism will take in Lahaina because it appears the historic buildings have burnt to the ground. Even if they rebuild them to look the same, will they have the same appeal? We didn’t look around much there, we went mostly for the whale-watching tour.

    Thanks for posting those links to help, I’ll have to look at them later today.

  35. 35.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @WereBear: ​
      There is a difference between people taking advantage of a horrible situation for profit and people causing a horrible situation to take advantage of it for profit.

  37. 37.

    WereBear

    @Baud: Indeed. A spate of Rochester NY research, his adopted hometown, led me down a rabbit hole I still haven’t left.

    I am reading his autobiography in small pieces because it’s so heavy going, especially in the beginning. The subject, not the craft.

    His way with words is stunning. No wonder he was so — hiddenly — influential.

  39. 39.

    Jeffro

    Somehow this slipped into the NYT: How trump Tried to Overturn The GA Vote

    Over the two months that followed the election, a vast effort unfolded on behalf of the lame-duck president to overturn the election results in swing states across the country. But perhaps nowhere were there as many attempts to intervene as in Georgia, where Fani T. Willis, the district attorney of Fulton County, is now poised to bring an indictment for a series of brazen moves made on behalf of Mr. Trump in the state after his loss and for lies that the president and his allies circulated about the election there.

    Mr. Trump has already been indicted three times this year, most recently in a federal case brought by the special prosecutor Jack Smith that is also related to election interference. But the Georgia case may prove the most expansive legal challenge to Mr. Trump’s attempts to cling to power, with nearly 20 people informed that they could face charges.

    It could also prove the most enduring: While Mr. Trump could try to pardon himself from a federal conviction if he were re-elected, presidents cannot pardon state crimes.

    Perhaps above all, the Georgia case assembled by Ms. Willis offers a vivid reminder of the extraordinary lengths taken by Mr. Trump and his allies to exert pressure on local officials to overturn the election — an up-close portrait of American democracy tested to its limits.

    *phrasings not usually noted in the Times highlighted in bold ;)

    Maybe the editor is off on a 3-day weekend or something?

  41. 41.

    Suzanne

    @Soprano2:

    I don’t know how much of a hit tourism will take in Lahaina because it appears the historic buildings have burnt to the ground. Even if they rebuild them to look the same, will they have the same appeal?

    Broadly speaking, it’s not preferred to try to rebuild after a disaster and try to have it look the same. Modern construction doesn’t have the same materials, techniques, skills, regulations, etc. There’s also — in general — a belief that the built environment should honor history by “showing its scars”, not by trying to make it look like something never happened. There should be a culturally appropriate way to rebuild, and it’s always a matter of debate.

    One of the more beautiful architectural experiences I had was in Munich, at a cathedral whose name I cannot remember. It was a masonry building and the interior had apparently been covered in frescoes, which were all destroyed in a bombing during the war. The repair used bricks with very sharp edges, to contrast with the existing bricks, which were all worn by age, so you could see exactly what was old and new, and how devastating the damage had been, The interior was then done super-minimally with dramatic lighting. It was spectacular.

    There’s similar debate about the reconstruction of Notre Dame’s roof.

    Take a look at the work of Shigeru Ban to see some fantastically gorgeous work built in the wake of disasters of various types.

  43. 43.

    NotMax

    @Suzanne

    Sincerely hope that whatever is built is in no way a Williamsburg-type attempt at replication.

    There’s very preliminary talk of setting aside a part of the historic area as an open space memorial park.

  45. 45.

    Dorothy A. Winsor

    Open thread? OK, here’s happier news. I finished reading THE DETECTIVE UP LATE, the latest entry in Adrian McKinty’s Sean Duffy series, set in Belfast during the Troubles.

    As the Amazon book description tells you, the disappearance of a traveler girl is supposed to be Duffy’s last case before semi-retirement. Police work in Belfast during the Troubles has finally become too much for him, now that he has a family. And yet…and yet…he can’t quite let go.

    I love this whole series and pre-ordered this 7th entry as soon as I could. Duffy is an appealing character, who’s both cynical about the nature of humanity and determined to do right by the things that actually matter. The setting comes through in the way that he checks under his car for bombs every single time before he gets in it. (My brother once told me that when he was living in Germany, he knew some British servicemen whose unit had just come from Belfast, and they all checked under their cars even in Germany. Life-saving habits die hard.)

    The plot kept me guessing until the very end. Recommended.

  47. 47.

    Dorothy A. Winsor

    Trump posted this early this morning. Via HuffPost

    “How dare lowlife prosecutor, Deranged Jack Smith, break into my former Twitter account without informing me and, indeed, trying to completely hide this atrocity from me,” Trump wrote on his Truth Social account. “What could he possibly find out that is not already known.”

  51. 51.

    Soprano2

    @Suzanne: Thanks, that’s interesting. I had wondered how they would handle the rebuilding when the area was so historic. After the damage in WWII, they rebuilt St. Paul’s Cathedral to the original wishes of the architect, which made it stunning – it was plain before. One of them most affecting sites I ever visited was Coventry Cathedral in England. They left it exactly as it was after it was bombed in WWII, and built a brand new cathedral next to it. More than anything else, seeing that made me realize what it must have been like to live through WWII. Also, Frankfurt looks almost like a new city; I guess much of it was destroyed in WWII. The little bit of older buildings really stood out there.

  56. 56.

    Betty Cracker

    @lee: Interesting. There are occasionally big wildfires in Florida, but it’s pretty rare and nothing like what you see in other sections of the country. Humidity makes sense as an explanation.

    Right now there are localized droughts in the state, whereas other areas have been deluged (20+ inches of rain in 24 hours in Ft. Lauderdale, for example). I’m in a drought area — the river is so low right now that we can’t get our boat out, and a neighbor who has lived here for a couple of decades says he’s only seen it this low once before.

    But I drove through a nearby national forest over the weekend, and the ranger signs pegged fire danger as “low.” I guess that’s thanks to the humidity — glad to hear there may be a benefit to an otherwise miserable condition!

  57. 57.

    Scout211

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: He’s been madly posting on his social this morning.  These are the Fulton County posts:

    I UNDERSTAND THROUGH ILLEGAL LEAKS TO THE FAKE NEWS MEDIA THAT PHONEY FANI WILLIS, THE D.A. OF FULTON COUNTY, GEORGIA, WANTS DESPERATELY TO INDICT ME ON THE RIDICULOUS GROUNDS OF TAMPERING WITH THE 2020 PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION. NO, I DIDN’T TAMPER WITH THE ELECTION! THOSE WHO RIGGED & STOLE THE ELECTION WERE THE ONES DOING THE TAMPERING, & THEY ARE THE SLIME THAT SHOULD BE PROSECUTED. I MADE A PERFECT PHONE CALL OF PROTEST. WHY WASN’T THIS FAKE CASE BROUGHT 2.5 YEARS AGO? ELECTION INTERFERENCE!

     

    WOULD SOMEONE PLEASE TELL THE FULTON COUNTY GRAND JURY THAT I DID NOT TAMPER WITH THE ELECTION. THE PEOPLE THAT TAMPERED WITH IT WERE THE ONES THAT RIGGED IT, AND SADLY, PHONEY FANI WILLIS, WHO HAS SHOCKINGLY ALLOWED ATLANTA TO BECOME ONE OF THE MOST DANGEROUS CITIES ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD, HAS NO INTEREST IN SEEING THE MASSIVE AMOUNT OF EVIDENCE AVAILABLE, OR FINDING OUT WHO THESE PEOPLE THAT COMMITTED THIS CRIME ARE. SHE ONLY WANTS TO “GET TRUMP.” I WOULD BE HAPPY TO SHOW THIS INFO TO THE G.J.

  59. 59.

    sdhays

    @Dorothy A. Winsor:

    “What could he possibly find out that is not already known.”

    LOL. Indeed, Trump. We already know you’re a coup-plotting mob-boss-wannabe. But there’s probably more evidence!

  62. 62.

    Suzanne

    @Soprano2:

    Also, Frankfurt looks almost like a new city; I guess much of it was destroyed in WWII. The little bit of older buildings really stood out there.

    The German cities are interesting. Munich was approx. 75% destroyed during the war, and rebuilding was done over time, mostly in modern styles (because that was the style of the time). But they kept a lot of the medieval city fabric and street pattern in the core. It creates some interesting public spaces.

  63. 63.

    zhena gogolia

    As John Cole informed us the other day, West Virginia U. is closing down its World Languages Department and firing all the faculty, to be replaced, according to the president, by “an app.”

    The world we live in.

  64. 64.

    Jeffro

    Btw I’m not sure I want to take the time to bore you all parse it all out, but today’s op-ed by Gary Abernathy in the WaPo is a master class in ‘blaming the victim’ (America/democracy/the rule of law being the victim), ‘both sides’ and straw men arguments.  It’s unreal.  It’s kind of a masterpiece, actually: no one else could have fit that much BS into just one column.

    Its headline is “On trump, No One Is Changing Their Mind.  So What Happens Now?”  So that’s one piece of BS just right from the start.

    Well, Gary, what happens now is

    a) we keep indicting, trying, and convicting trump, and

    b) you keep pretending that the real problem is, us Dems hate you and all folks remotely like you, and

    c) trump keeps losing support, drop by drop, and

    d) in 2024, your party will be a complete basket case and we’ll keep right on governing.

  67. 67.

    Suzanne

    @NotMax:

    Sincerely hope that whatever is built is in no way a Williamsburg-type attempt at replication. 

    Agree. Barf.
    The thing that I find so offensive about “trying to make something new look old” is that it assumes that there is no contemporary aesthetic within that culture, like it’s all quaint. It’s not like native Hawaiian culture stopped moving forward at one point and thus there’s not an appropriate and serious cultural response.

  68. 68.

    Betty Cracker

    @Jeffro: Working on a post about that stupid column. The question is valid: What do we do now? The solution he offers is self-serving garbage as usual.

  69. 69.

    Mai Naem mobileI

    @Soprano2: i think they’re looking for TFGs communication with others and location stamps on Jan 6th. I’d like to see some congress critters get caught up in this.

  70. 70.

    Jeffro

    @zhena gogolia: he actually referenced Brooks’ piece(!)

    SO IRRITATING

    Just give it up, trump-enablers!  This. Is. What. You. Get. for supporting the most corrupt, incompetent, deranged presidential candidate in history.  The. Bill. Is. Due.

  72. 72.

    Suzanne

    To follow up…. the one instance in which the architectural consensus seems to be that it’s okay to try to copy the past is when seeing exactly how something was is important to understanding something critical about its role. Like, for example, when I toured Dachau, they rebuilt part of the bunk structure so you would get the accurate sense of how cramped and inhumane it was. And then generally, there’s an effort to use the techniques and materials used back then, so you don’t see Simpson strong-ties all over the place.

    There’s some interesting discussions about bringing modern concerns about accessibility and safety to historic structures, and when it is appropriate and when it isn’t.

  73. 73.

    Jeffro

    @Betty Cracker: His solution is for Dems to let trump enablers off the hook, admit that we hate flyover country/Republicans/white folks/old folks/all of the above, stop prosecuting trump, and just “love one another”

    (so yes, what you said – it’s all self-serving)

    NOPE

    Pay. The. Bill, Gary.  Y’all dined quite nicely on your tax cuts and judges, and you held your nose at all the other stuff.  Well now you can hold your nose while we give Orangemandias the justice he so richly deserves.

  80. 80.

    MomSense

    @Jeffro:

    If it were only tax cuts it would be one thing, but really their ideology is vicious.  If you don’t have health care, go without.  If they had their way minimum wage would still be under $8/hour and if you can’t afford to feed your kids well there is dignity in starving. On every policy there is cruelty at the center of it.
    I am not interested in pretending Republicans were saner or better then.  They’ve been horrible for decades.
    What we do about them going forward is a worthy question.  I don’t have the answers but it sure as hell isn’t pretending that somehow Democrats are just as bad.

  81. 81.

    Soprano2

    @Jeffro: If they truly treat him like everyone else, then yes he should, probably within the week. Perhaps spending a week in jail will shock some sense into him.

  82. 82.

    Jeffro

    @Baud: 110%

    He MUST face the consequences of trying to overturn a free and fair election (among so many other things).

    I think Gary, Brooksie, and others like them know: this was a long time coming, and we will see it through, and it is going to WRECK the Republicans (as well it should)

  84. 84.

    Kelly

    Another town burns to the ground. It’s not the rise in CO2 it’s the damned libs won’t let real men do real work cutting brush and trees. If everyone took responsibility for their homes nothing would burn down. Crowds of people gunned down weekly. If more real men carried serious firearms everywhere all the time the bad guys would get shot down before the body count got high. If pedestrians kept their eyes open and their head on a swivel they would be run down by real men in serious hurry in driving serious trucks.

  86. 86.

    martha

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: Love his Duffy series! I’ve been waiting for this one and apparently there are two more coming. This time, I’m going to try the audiobook because the narrator is so good…

  87. 87.

    Yarrow

    @Suzanne:

    There’s some interesting discussions about bringing modern concerns about accessibility and safety to historic structures, and when it is appropriate and when it isn’t.

    I’ve wondered about that sort of thing. It doesn’t seem like you can easily add, say, an elevator, to go up to a bell tower or turret in an old church or castle.

  89. 89.

    rikyrah

    @Kay:

    Instead? Not a peep out of them. The far Right are putting words in the mouth of AA historical figures and propagandizing 5 million public school students in Florida and none of our “public intellectuals” care. They’re too busy monitoring the 31 Yale law students who are not deferential to Right wing judges.

     

    Absolutely ridiculous!!

  96. 96.

    Yarrow

    @MomSense:

    On every policy there is cruelty at the center of it.

    So true. Cruelty is the point.

    I am not interested in pretending Republicans were saner or better then. They’ve been horrible for decades.

    They have been but as a group they used to be far less extreme. They used to support Planned Parenthood, for example. Can’t imagine that happening now. Now the crazy runs the party.

  97. 97.

    martha

    @Suzanne: another good example of this approach is Manzanar, one of the primary WWII Japanese internment camps in Inyo County California, in the shadow of mount Whitney. Much of the camp has been left as it was, but they reconstructed a few of the buildings to show the detainees’ actual experiences in living, schooling, the kitchens, etc. The educational exhibits are really good as well.

  99. 99.

    Mike in NC

    Imagine if Fat Bastard was still in office [shudder]. He’d have made a five-minute stop in Maui to complain about how his precious time was being wasted, bitch at the victims of the wildfires about how they needed to rake their forests better, then jet off to the nearest golf course on Oahu.

  100. 100.

    FastEdD

    Care should be given that locals have a say in the rebuilding of Maui, or the whole island will be turned into strip malls owned by non-natives. Hawaiian politics has plenty of friction between locals and Haoles and it is already one of the biggest headaches they have. That being said, of all the islands, Maui has the least attachment to native culture. There are condos a block or two inland from the ocean that are not insanely priced so maybe they can set aside some for people who need them.

  102. 102.

    UncleEbeneezer

    The new U.S. majority isn’t just young, tolerant and diverse. They vote. The right hates that, and it hates what it sees when it looks at something like U.S. women’s soccer They hate America AND democracy, and it’s devolving toward violence. My new column.

  103. 103.

    rikyrah

    uh huh

    uh huh

     

    Leia (@TheSWPrincess) posted at 3:32 PM on Sun, Aug 13, 2023:
    Here’s the letter from September 2022 from Senate Republicans asking AG Garland to appoint David Weiss Special Counsel in the investigation of Hunter Biden.

    Now that Weiss was appointed Special Counsel, the same Republicans are complaining that it’s not fair.

    They aren’t… https://t.co/DdDcn6hZW8
    (https://twitter.com/TheSWPrincess/status/1690823606350102528?t=TWDWehIxCGIM-3NSEkmdEg&s=03)

  104. 104.

    WereBear

    For those interested in turning a Fire 7 into an eReader, I ‘ve been happy with the Kindle, Scribd, and Silk browser apps. I can use my online Dropbox to grab PDFs for reading in the Kindle. And I do order things from Amazon, though I’ve never liked that app. And there’s a FreeVee app, but I’m not watching on this when I have far better devices.

    As a reader, though, I love it. It has Dark Mode and will shift the color spectrum automatically, at sunrise/sunset. That’s a must since I read myself to sleep most nights. Lightweight, well balanced, and 10 hours of battery.

    It’s my always there reader I can also put in my purse. If I get stuck somewhere with no wifi, which happens a lot in this neck of the woods, I turn it off to save the battery. And, reading-wise, I’m loaded for bear.

  105. 105.

    Alison Rose

    As I said elsewhere, I feel like there could be a natural disaster on Mars, and WCK would have a team on the ground there within a day. What an incredible organization.

  110. 110.

    rikyrah

    Hope Restored In DFW (@Kennymack1971) posted at 7:19 AM on Mon, Aug 14, 2023:
    Here’s the gag: Special Counsel or no, there’s no meat on this bone and the Republicans along with the simps in the media know it. The Republicans are throwing a temper tantrum and the media is stupidly feeling duty bound to treat it seriously.

    Hope Restored In DFW (@Kennymack1971) posted at 7:19 AM on Mon, Aug 14, 2023:
    The tell is right there in the GOPs reaction to the Special Counsel they screamed for. They know Weiss is going to put a pin in this bullshit sooner rather than later and their attempts to turn this into Watergate are going to fizzle out.
    (https://twitter.com/Kennymack1971/status/1691062067376066560?t=T1acuwTRcZB6UFGV5N_F0A&s=03)

  112. 112.

    WereBear

    @Soprano2: Perhaps spending a week in jail will shock some sense into him.

     
    Except there is no sense to shock, here.

    No there, there.

    Or he wouldn’t have just come from a scolding about shutting the eff up, and then two days later threaten a District Attorney.

    We’re in film noir now, and you know how they end.

  113. 113.

    Ken

    @Soprano2: Perhaps spending a week in jail will shock some sense into him.

    Last night I said when the judge (probably Chutkan) sentences him, he’d probably start screaming obscenities, and she’d keep rapping the gavel and increasing the time and fines until Trump’s lawyer tackled him.

    Sadly, one response pointed out that he’s usually very quiet in court, and saves his bluster and bullying for outside. But I can hope.

  116. 116.

    rikyrah

    The Hill (@thehill) posted at 6:46 AM on Mon, Aug 14, 2023:
    GOP strategists say there’s growing concern that if Trump is not the nominee, many of his core supporters, who are estimated to make up 25 percent to 35 percent of the party base, “will take their ball and go home.”

    Hope Restored In DFW (@Kennymack1971) posted at 7:45 AM on Mon, Aug 14, 2023:
    This is something that doesn’t get enough attention. There’s a reason that the GOP leadership/big donors won’t hit the ejector seat button on Trump.

    They can’t. And there’s no one running on that side who will scratch that itch.
    (https://twitter.com/Kennymack1971/status/1691068588377919488?t=L7QDxAt-bXaOKJQ9p7HCBg&s=03)

  117. 117.

    WereBear

    @Yarrow: They used to support Planned Parenthood, for example. Can’t imagine that happening now. Now the crazy runs the party.

    I think that was Babs and Bush the Elder. Not that long ago, in other words.

  118. 118.

    Ken

    @rikyrah: sixteen fake Electors have been charged with multiple felonies in Michigan

    I suddenly have the suspicion that at least one of the geniuses surrounding Trump in late 2020 proposed appointing 32 fake Michigan electors, to get even more electoral votes.

  119. 119.

    Suzanne

    @Yarrow:

    I’ve wondered about that sort of thing. It doesn’t seem like you can easily add, say, an elevator, to go up to a bell tower or turret in an old church or castle.

    There’s so many factors that go into it. In some cases, it would definitely ruin the character of the building to make it accessible and within modern code. Not just elevators, but ramps and handrails and level floors and exit signs and lighting levels and doorway widths and areas of assisted rescue, etc etc etc. Sometimes things can be done tastefully and sometimes they can’t. There’s generally a desire to clearly delineate the existing construction from the new, so you don’t end up with Ye Olde High-Speed Elevator.

  120. 120.

    rikyrah

    One of my favorite food reviewers on TikTok drove up this place:
    Here was his breakdown:
    Boarded up windows
    Cash Only
    Bars on the windows…

    He was like….all indications that this food is about to be FIRE!

    BWA HA AH HA HA HA HA HA HA

    And, while he didn’t like one item, everything else HIT, and their homemade Iced Tea- he called it a bottle of crack!
    BWA HA HA HA HA HA HA

  121. 121.

    WereBear

    @Alison Rose: I’ve been reading books about it. It’s like they want a world they understand and can feel superior knowing about. And they cluster because every conspiracy theory can fit into any other.

    It’s like a hobby that takes over their mind. It’s a way of sharing the delusion, and they would rather live there.

  123. 123.

    Montanareddog

    @Dorothy A. Winsor:

     

    My brother once told me that when he was living in Germany, he knew some British servicemen whose unit had just come from Belfast, and they all checked under their cars even in Germany. Life-saving habits die hard.

    The IRA did actually undertake some attacks on British servicemen posted to German and other European bases. Including shooting 2 Australian backpackers on the street that they mistook for off-duty servicemen, IIRC.

  124. 124.

    Soprano2

    @Jeffro: So we’re supposed to love MAGA’s and what are they supposed to do – nothing, I’m guessing. They can still hate us while we extend a loving, understanding hand to them. Fuck that! The.bill.is.due.for.what.you.did. Trump.humpers. Time.to.pay.up.

  130. 130.

    Jeffro

    @rikyrah: run with trump, and risk losing the 20% who just can’t do it again

    OR

    run without trump, and risk losing the 35% who won’t accept anyone else

    Helluva dilemma you’ve got yourselves, there, GOP.  How about since you’re going to take the ‘L’ anyway, try defending your country and the rule of law for once?

  131. 131.

    Brachiator

    @Jeffro:

    but today’s op-ed by Gary Abernathy in the WaPo is a master class in ‘blaming the victim’ (America/democracy/the rule of law being the victim), ‘both sides’ and straw men arguments.  It’s unreal.  It’s kind of a masterpiece, actually: no one else could have fit that much BS into just one column.

    Thanks for the link. It is crazy that Abernathy is essentially saying that the Indictments are nothing more than political persecution because some people are upset that Trump defeated Hilary in 2016. This is not only insulting, it is practically insane.

    Throughout the op-ed piece he refuses to judge Trump’s actions and reduces everything to whether or not people like Trump.

    For the record, I think it would be a mistake for voters to reward Trump with the presidency again. But I also think the indictments against Trump are a mistake. They will ensure nonstop national turmoil and might well help elect him.

    This is the contemporary equivalent of saying that Nixon must be pardoned so that the nation can heal.

    Trump should be indicted and prosecuted. He should be punished if found guilty.

    And Trump is the source of much of our national turmoil, not partisan anger.

  132. 132.

    kindness

    Invasive grass species helped propel the fire, eh?  If only I could meet the fool who brought Bermuda grass to California in a dark alley somewhere….

  135. 135.

    rikyrah

    He IS NOT A DEMOCRAT. HE IS A REPUBLICAN PLANT 

    Jon Cooper (@joncoopertweets) posted at 10:18 PM on Sun, Aug 13, 2023:
    BREAKING: RFK Jr. told an NBC News reporter today that he would sign a federal ban on abortion after 15 weeks or 21 weeks of pregnancy if he were elected president, saying “I think the states have a right to protect a child once the child becomes viable, and that right, it… https://t.co/696LYDyVZs
    (https://twitter.com/joncoopertweets/status/1690925956469317632?t=3oR7_IMnso7SFsvc8PQnpA&s=03)

  138. 138.

    rikyrah

    No Lie with Brian Tyler Cohen (@NoLieWithBTC) posted at 4:18 PM on Sun, Aug 13, 2023:
    Trump just filmed a video with Laura Loomer, a white nationalist who pushed false flag conspiracy theories about the Parkland school shooting and celebrated the deaths of migrants, calling for “more” of them to die.

    He calls her “terrific” and “special.”

    rolandsmartin (@rolandsmartin) posted at 11:06 PM on Sun, Aug 13, 2023:
    The @GOP is truly the party of white supremacy. Any Black person even considering voting for Trump is self-hating. This man adores white nationalists.
    (https://twitter.com/rolandsmartin/status/1690937925704339456?t=LnGto4UXHbASF97os9YSHQ&s=03)

  140. 140.

    Baud

    @rikyrah:

    That’s just gobbledygook. Big difference between 15 and 21, and I think viability is at 23 or 24 weeks.  

    ETA: Surprised he didn’t try to mention 14 and 88 again.

  141. 141.

    Brachiator

    @rikyrah:

    GOP strategists say there’s growing concern that if Trump is not the nominee, many of his core supporters, who are estimated to make up 25 percent to 35 percent of the party base, “will take their ball and go home.”

    I wonder how honest this is. It sounds as though some of the GOP leadership is trying to tip the primary scales in Trump’s favor by formally embracing him instead of pretending to be neutral towards the many Republican contenders for the nomination.

    The whole thing smacks of dishonesty. These strategists are saying that Trump’s base only cares about him and will not vote for other offices or issues in the 2024 election.

    These strategists are also saying that they know why voters might stay home. I have never seen any convincing case for this by anyone.

  143. 143.

    rikyrah

    @Soprano2:

     

    @Jeffro: So we’re supposed to love MAGA’s and what are they supposed to do – nothing, I’m guessing. They can still hate us while we extend a loving, understanding hand to them. Fuck that! The.bill.is.due.for.what.you.did. Trump.humpers. Time.to.pay.up.

    I know that’s right.

    WE have to do all the bending and forgiving and reaching out?

    I.think.the.phuck.not.

  146. 146.

    frosty

    @Suzanne: ​Even when a city is flattened, the street pattern survives. Hiroshima was the first example I ran across. Maybe it’s the pattern of land ownership, maybe because that’s where the underground utilities are.​

  148. 148.

    Yarrow

    @WereBear: Yes, Babs and Bush and Elder supported Planned Parenthood. But not just them. A lot of elected Republicans did. The party did for a bit. Ordinary people who voted Republican did. It’s hard to believe now.

  149. 149.

    Brachiator

    @rikyrah:

    I reactivated my Facebook account very briefly tonight to see @EBraeden announce that he is cancer free!!!! I am so happy for him… he’s a legend. We Y&R fans love to say he raised a generation of kids who watched the show during summer breaks!

    I mainly remember him as a character in the old TV series The Rat Patrol and as a villain in episodes of Mission Impossible and other TV shows. He was a memorable and excellent character actor.

    Wishing him well.

  150. 150.

    Salty Sam .

    @Suzanne:  Broadly speaking, it’s not preferred to try to rebuild after a disaster and try to have it look the same. Modern construction doesn’t have the same materials, techniques, skills, regulations, etc. There’s also — in general — a belief that the built environment should honor history by “showing its scars”, not by trying to make it look like something never happened. There should be a culturally appropriate way to rebuild, and it’s always a matter of debate.

    Suzanne, I would just like to jump in here and let you know how much I appreciate your insights into architecture and building.  I have worked in the construction trades for most of my adult life, and really enjoy learning some of the “behind the scenes” scenarios you describe.  THANKS!

  151. 151.

    Kelly

    Amazingly prescient Mrs Kelly reserved a campsite for this week near Bandon on the Oregon coast 6 months ago. This week’s forecast is the hottest week of the summer temps well over 100 in the Willamette Valley. Probable wildfire smoke. Highs in Bandon in the 70s. No wifi, lousy cell signal. Adios!

  153. 153.

    Yarrow

    @rikyrah:  I don’t know what place that is, since there’s no link. It does remind me of a place a friend took me years ago. A small burger joint. They proudly displayed their “C” rating from the Health Department. No one cared. Lines every day. Food was fantastic.

  154. 154.

    raven

    Of course this post comes up the day I have been immersed in a silly household emergency. I hope folks can help out.

  155. 155.

    Brachiator

    @Yarrow:

    A small burger joint. They proudly displayed their “C” rating from the Health Department. No one cared. Lines every day. Food was fantastic.

    I tend to avoid places with low ratings in the Los Angeles area. Walking through the back area to go to the restroom at one place which served “great food,” I noticed food and supplies placed on areas where there were insects and rat droppings. Food that should have been refrigerated was left out.

    Also there was no soap in the bathroom. This strongly suggested that employees were not washing their hands or could not reliably clean them.

  157. 157.

    kindness

    wrt notions if Trump isn’t the ’24 Republican nominee…  If Trump doesn’t get nominated (even if he’s in a jail cell by then), he’s run as a 3rd party ticket.  Trump only cares about Trump and his penchant for vengeance knows no bounds.  That said, his supporters would support him in jail or who ever Republicans nominate.  That’s because those supporters are foaming at the mouth types who view us and our liberal views as a bigger threat to their very existence than anything else.

  159. 159.

    Another Scott

    @Betty Cracker:

    I would worry about big fires in places like the Everglades, but with enough resources they should be able to handle them (at least if they don’t get too big).

    Virginia and North Carolina has had fires in the Great Dismal Swamp and similar areas that lasted for years (the Great Conflagration of 1923-1926).

    :-/

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  160. 160.

    Kay

    @rikyrah:

    Oh, good. Another dope who nows nothing about womens health or pregnancy makes a pronouncement on whether or not women will be permitted to receive modern, best practices health care.

    Because we were really lacking that perspective. There aren’t enough of them.

    It shouldn’t surprise anyone he wants to base womens health care on woo woo and superstition. He is, after all, an anti vaxxer. RFK Jr. got the best medical care available for his voice problem. Top drawer. The most medical science had to offer for him.  Women, however, should bleed out in a bathtub – be sacrificed to appease fundie religious and anti vaxxers.

  161. 161.

    TheOtherHank

    Oprah was all over the CBS morning show this morning. They talked up how she’s been helping out: She went to Walmart and bought stuff! She’s talking to people!

    What I want to know is how many millions of dollars she’s donated to relief efforts. She’s a billionaire who’s been buying up large chunks of the state (one could almost say like a vulture). Break out the checkbook.

  162. 162.

    Ken

    @Yarrow: The Southern Baptists supported abortion rights (albeit in somewhat limited form) through the 1970s. They viewed opposition to abortion as being a Catholic issue. In 1976 and again in 1979, after Roe, they called the decision an important line in the separation of church and state, and passed resolutions that the decision to have an abortion must remain between a woman and her doctor.

    Then in the 1980s they got into politics, which was also something they’d condemned for decades….

  163. 163.

    Baud

    @Ken:

    In fairness, I think they the SB got taken over by conservative forces much like much the country did.  Not the same group of people in charge.

  164. 164.

    WhatsMyNym

    @kindness:

    Invasive grass species helped propel the fire

    The quick growing grasses were bought in for the cattle ranches. You could see the burnt grass uphill from the town.

  165. 165.

    BR

    @Kay: ​

    I thought there was an unspoken rule that open antisemitism was a immediate disqualifier for news coverage. Why is RFKJ still getting any coverage anywhere?

  166. 166.

    patrick II

    Hunter Biden and David Weiss’s probation agreement broke down over a diversion program for gun offenders that would be adequate to grant Biden immunity from future federal prosecutions. What those future prosecutions could be are not named.

    In the meantime, a person in another federal court ree1

    ………

  167. 167.

    Ruckus

    @Baud:

    I am very saddened by the deaths but not all that surprised. We are seeing actual, massive weather change in front of our eyes. It is bigger than all of us. I can say, likely reasonably that this is not the first extremely horrible weather event we will see as time goes on. A lot of what humans do creates fuel for a situation like this. Homes made out of wood or other natural, flammable items, gasoline in cars are just two of the the things we all do that creates a fire source and all it needs is an ignition point and enough wind. Not even massive winds like this situation, just enough wind.

  170. 170.

    cain

    @Soprano2: This is actually a great opportunity to give some of that land back to the natives. I would not make that land available unless they were 2 generations Hawaiian and had indigenous blood.

    We need to give homes to people who will make it their home – not a bunch of rich people where that home is just one of many. This applies to the all the international rich people – eg rich businessman in Asia and not just Europe and U.S.

  174. 174.

    cain

    @rikyrah: and thanks to gerrymandering they have real risks of collapse if those voters won’t show up. They literally have to do things like early voting/vote by mail to get them to the voting booth.

  175. 175.

    Yarrow

    @Brachiator:  Apparently the disagreement with the health department was something to do with a vent or something. Everything else was fine. It was a long running dispute with the health department.

  176. 176.

    cain

    @Baud: splitting the white supremacist vote is a good thing. Between Trump and this idiot. Never has there been so much choice for a white supremacist! ::sarcasm::

  177. 177.

    Fake Irishman

    @Suzanne:

    Really appreciate how you bring your architectural knowledge into these threads. I’ve learned a lot from you over the last year or so about how architectural challenges and limitations can influence questions of public policy (eg housing and urban planning) as well as historic preservation, cultural issues and disability access among others.

    My wife’s college roommate is an architect and works for the National Parks Service. It’s so cool to hear her talk about her job— like how to we build accessible bathrooms in this natural area? Or how to we light this part of a cave structure and avoid encouraging the growth of non-native lichen?

    (her area of responsibility is the west coast and Hawaii, it’s such a drag for her to travel for her job….)

  178. 178.

    Ruckus

    @Kay:

    It shouldn’t surprise anyone he wants to base womens health care on woo woo and superstition. He is, after all, an anti vaxxer. RFK Jr. got the best medical care available for his voice problem. Top drawer. The most medical science had to offer for him.  Women, however, should bleed out in a bathtub – be sacrificed to appease fundie religious and anti vaxxers.

    This needs to be repeated. Because it is not just him. It is a lot of our conservative population, even of some conservative women. It is completely, absolutely wrong.

    (I took out the word I had in before wrong. You might imagine what word I would put in there)

  180. 180.

    Ruckus

    @Suzanne:

    It really is good when people really like their work. Many people have OK or good jobs, because it’s a paycheck. The concept of not just being OK with a job/career but really liking what you do is not always an option or what is. And I find that, while normal for a lot of humans, it can make work not exactly like it’s worth doing.

  183. 183.

    raven

    Damn, I was able to find that captain of the boat that I fished on 11 years ago. I sent him some $ to try to help out and I juts looked at his FB page. People are ranting that the fires were  a government plot the same as the Paradise fires.

  184. 184.

    Brachiator

    @Yarrow:

    Apparently the disagreement with the health department was something to do with a vent or something. Everything else was fine. It was a long running dispute with the health department.

    The criteria for ratings should be clearly defined and available for public review. If the health department is abusing their authority or engaging any kind of shakedown, that kind of crap needs to be called out.

  185. 185.

    SixStringFanatic

    @Montanareddog: Germany also once had their own terrorist organizations.  I was an Army brat in Frankfurt from 1982-1987.  There was a series of car bombings in American housing areas throughout Frankfurt, the first couple of years that I lived there.  I remember how my dad checked his car every morning before he got in and started it.

    There was also a car bomb set off at one end of the American shopping complex there.  I was working in the complex when it went off.  Day after my 18th birthday.  And I thought feeling hungover was going to be the worst part of that day!

    Being American in the 70s and 80s was occasionally quite adventurous in many parts of Europe.

  187. 187.

    Soprano2

    @Brachiator: With me it depends. If I saw stuff like that, then I would probably avoid an establishment, too. OTOH, they will call things like an employee in the kitchen forgetting to wash their hands before putting on gloves a major violation, when that’s as much nervousness as anything. We had a cook who would do that when the health inspector was there but not at other times, because he got nervous. Some violations are more serious than others. Not storing meat and chicken correctly, for example, are huge problems. Having the cold table be 43 degrees rather than 41 degrees is not that big of a deal.

  188. 188.

    gvg

    @Betty Cracker: We also get more lightning strikes than the rest of the country though, and fire is a normal part of our ecology. In fact our fire danger is mostly because of fire suppression causing a build up of too much undergrowth, some of it dried out and good kindling. Most of our pine trees require fire to germinate, but they need a fast, not too hot fire.  The build up of bushes means the fires can get hotter, which means it can burn grown trees which normally just ignore the fires.

  189. 189.

    Suzanne

    @Ruckus: I love my career. I don’t always feel good about the whole profession, though. Architecture has too cozy a relationship to power and wealth, IMO. I try to stay away from certain types of work and people.

  191. 191.

    SC54HI

    Due to time differences, probably no one will see this but here are some of my thoughts as a historic preservation professional (archaeologist) working in Hawaiʻi for decades:

    Here is a map of the Lahaina Historic Districts which comprise the Lahaina National Historic Landmark District. As you can see, when comparing the county map with the FEMA maps, the contributing architectural properties are probably gone although some post-fire photos show that buildings like Waiola Church and the Old Lahaina Courthouse are still standing but gutted.

    By county ordinance, the Maui County Cultural Resources Commission has approval/disapproval powers over construction-related permits in the Lahaina Historic District. While rebuilding the historic properties that have surviving structural components should be possible, I am not sure what happens for the properties that have been obliterated since there is no there there. Would the current restrictions on developing contributing properties in the NHL District apply? I’d guess not but do not know — IANAL! Since its owners hope to rebuild, we may see how this all works for the Pioneer Inn.

    From what I can see so far, some of the only surviving contributing properties for NHL District are the traditional cultural properties like the Surf of Uo and the Hauola Stone. Once it is safe to do so, I am sure that Maui County will be working with historic preservation organizations to inventory the damage to NHL District and make assessments.

  192. 192.

    SC54HI

    More thoughts: whatever happens with historic properties in the rebuilding of Lahaina, I really hope that this will be a come-to-Jesus moment for a number of festering issues that certainly go beyond Maui:

    • Restriction of non-local & corporate ownership of property, ESPECIALLY residential property.
    • A crackdown on how the large landowners are allowed to “bank” thousands of acres while doing jack shit about removing invasive species that fuel wildfires.
    • TRULY affordable housing that is adjacent to where people work
    • Resources such as medical care and public educational facilities to support local residents so they don’t have to drive all over the island
    • Eliminating the longstanding diversion of upland water sources or “reserving” them for possible future development which may or may not happen.

    There are other problems of course but if there is any hope to be found in this dreadful situation, it may come if these things are addressed in meaningful and longterm ways for the people of Maui.

  197. 197.

    Yarrow

    @Brachiator:  It was my understanding the health department wasn’t doing that. They did their job. The burger place liked things how they were. They weren’t shut down but the Health Department gave them a C rating. Lines were out the door so if something was really wrong you’d think people would figure it out. The grumpy guys making burgers were straight out of central casting. It was fun.

  198. 198.

    Ruckus

    @Suzanne:

    Just got home so I’m late with this.

    Building for the majority is something they buy, like a house. They use other buildings, like a VA clinic/hospital, a bank, etc.

    People who pay for commercial buildings, custom built homes, those are people with money, some with a lot of money. The rest of us use buildings. That doesn’t mean we can’t appreciate well built, well designed buildings, because we can. The vast majority of us are not your direct clients. That also doesn’t mean we can’t appreciate well build buildings. The apartment building I live in is 37 yrs old and really does not look it at all. Could it be better? Sure but as you’ve said on here before there are always compromises that exist.

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