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You are here: Home / Open Threads / I Am On Pins and Needles Open Thread

I Am On Pins and Needles Open Thread

by | 179 Comments

This post is in: 

Maybe it’s crazy, but I am on pins and needles, waiting to hear whether Mark Meadows is allowed to move his case to federal court, with the next step being asking for immunity because he was “just doing his job as a public official”.   I think if they don’t move the case to federal court, he has less room to go for immunity, and get it.  In GA?  I don’t think so!

Anyone here see it like I do?  Or differently?  Either way, I’d like to hear it.  Gut feelings are fine, but maybe I’m reading too much into it.

To me, it seems like this will be the bellwether for whether this kind of bullshit will pass for legal arguments and will fly in these coup cases.

Here’s a Threadreader link where Ryan Goodman tears apart his (Mark Meadows) testimony today. You don’t need twitter to be able to read a Threadreader version.

💫

I think I”m gonna start a calendar so we can know when the various dates are coming up

💫

Okay, Pop Quiz.

 

I Am On Pins and Needles Open Thread 1

Do these guys look alike?

Do you know who the guy on the left is?

Maybe this will help?

(I’m not sure whether I’m supposed to say who put the two images together (above) so I’m hoping he will chime in with a comment to let me know.)  Permission granted: JWR!

I Am On Pins and Needles Open Thread

I think the mug shot is the new Rorschach test.  If you see that and think hot damn, my guy looks awesome – then, well let’s just say you may not be the poster person for good mental health.

Totally open thread.

 

Reader Interactions

179Comments

  3. 3.

    BR

    Teri Kanefield had a good thread on the Meadows case:

    https://law-and-politics.online/@Teri_Kanefield/110968188002957380

    I also think that it is a disservice for a pundit to say, “Meadows case has a fatal flaw,” because the public doesn’t know this is an opinion and without realizing it, the pundit is acting as an advocate.

    Advocates always think that their side will win.

    In fact, I’ll tell you my experience as an appellate lawyer representing people who lost their trials or hearings.

    Here was my process. . .

  4. 4.

    WaterGirl

    @BR: Is all of Mastadon dark mode?  Or do all the people here who link to it happen to have dark mode?  Asking because I loathe dark mode and can barely bring myself to read something that’s posted in it.

  5. 5.

    WaterGirl

    @BR: I didn’t see a thread about the Meadows case at your link, or was that her jumping off something about Meadows and suggesting that no one should make a hot take about any of this?

  6. 6.

    RSA

    Trump’s mugshot has a little bit of the Batman villain Two-Face about it. Most people are a little asymmetrical, but if you block off one half of his face and look at the other half, and then the reverse… Wow.

  7. 7.

    prostratedragon

    In commenting on the Goodman thread, Andrew Weissman notes that if this is Meadow’s testimony then he cannot be co-operating with Smith. (link) The reason Meadows has rocketed to the top of my list is a suspicion that he’s been trying to nudge and bluff a perception that he’s a quiet co-operator into getting special considerations at the State level. If there ever had been any talks in that direction, they’re off the table now.

  8. 8.

    Scout211

    I read the live updates from  ABC news  that followed his testimony from their reporters in the courtroom.  I posted some of it downstairs.  Meadows was playing a naive victim of his boss’  demands. How could anyone expect him to know anything about the Hatch Act, election interference and election fraud?  He’s only the Chief of Staff for POTUS and a former lawmaker! How could he have known? Sheesh.

    I can’t see how Judge could possibly go along with this.  But IANAL.

     

    Here is a summary of the prosecution closing argument:

    The prosecution closed their arguments by saying there is “nothing to show” how Meadows’ participation in a criminal conspiracy to overturn an election was within his official duties.

    Prosecutors questioned if it was “necessary or proper” to offer campaign resources to state officials or arrange state elections.

    “It was done so Donald Trump could be declared the winner of the 2020 election, when he was not,” prosecutors said regarding Meadows’ actions.

    Prosecutors said all Meadows had to do during the hearing Monday was “look at that law, something he astronomically paid no attention to today.”

    The prosecution claimed the defense did not demonstrate what federal authorities allowed the chief of staff to arrange Trump’s call with Raffensperger.

    The prosecution also said Meadows in multiple instances throughout his testimony today used the term “we” while never explaining who “we” meant when he described calls and emails. Was it the campaign or the federal office, the prosecution asked.

    Earlier in his testimony, this gem:

    Mark Meadows testified that the Hatch Act does apply to the White House chief of staff, but he said “there are some differences of opinion on how it should apply.”

    Meadows insisted that when it comes to his interactions with people connected to Donald Trump’s campaign, including Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger, he said, “I didn’t [see ] that as a violation of the Hatch Act.”

     

    My favorite part:

    Mark Meadows said on the stand that he wasn’t sure whether the lawyers on then-President Donald Trump’s phone call with Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger were Trump’s personal attorneys or lawyers for the Trump campaign.

    The prosecutor then asked Meadows if he didn’t know what roles they had then “why did you want them on the call?” At that moment the judge shook his head in seeming bewilderment.

  9. 9.

    BR

    @WaterGirl: ​

    Sorry, perhaps thread wasn’t the right word — she posted several 2-3 post mini threads in short succession. I didn’t link the others.

    And Mastodon is whatever mode you set it to. If you’re not logged in, then it’s whatever the server has as its default. She runs her own, and I guess that’s what she chose.

  12. 12.

    bjacques

    Big Brother there looks like Oswald Mosley gone to seed. I’m not buying Trump’s menace. He probably practiced that scowl like Hitler famously practiced his shouting and gesticulating in front of a mirror. At least Photoshop some prison bars in front of it. Also one eye looks bigger than the other and badly drawn.

  13. 13.

    Roger Moore

    @WaterGirl:

    Is all of Mastadon dark mode?

    I don’t think so, but I think it defaults to dark mode.  That’s more of a problem with Mastodon than with other social media.  With other social media, you’re always connecting to the same service, so your settings will always apply.  With Mastodon, though, you’re often taken to a different instance where you don’t have an account.

  14. 14.

    Brachiator

    I’m curious as to how the attorneys here might view what Meadows is doing. I don’t have any real gut feeling about it.

    I think the mug shot is the new Rorschach test.  If you see that and think hot damn, my guy looks awesome – then, well let’s just say you may not be the poster person for good mental health.

    Very interesting comparison. Big Brother vs the Orange Menace.

    Orwell feared how an authoritarian government might manipulate and exploit people. I don’t think he thought about this huge, unexpected flaw in democracy in which a sizeable segment of citizens would embrace and enable their own exploitation by willingly following a demented faux populist.

    I see the mug shot and I see Trump’s fear and desperation. And his delusion. He keeps fighting, even though his back is against the wall. And the crazy thing is that he and he alone is responsible for his problems. Not any conspiracy. What makes all this a drama is that he has made his delusions a national political issue.

    What is even more crazy is that Trump is nothing but a sad loser. He has committed crimes and outrages against the country. He should be tried and convicted. And what happens to him is totally up to the people.

    If he were smart, he would confess and grovel for a pardon. Problem is, he ain’t smart.

  15. 15.

    Steeplejack

    @WaterGirl:

    Dark mode is the default on Mastodon, but there is a light mode accessible through Settings. But I think maybe you have to have an account to access that.

  20. 20.

    MattF

    A NYT opinion from Burt Neuborne, a founder of the Brennan Center (gift link) on the limits of TFG’s First Amendment defense. Turns out there’s a ‘willful blindness’ exception. Turns out that a recent statement of that exception comes from none other than Sam Alito:

    Many criminal statutes require proof that a defendant acted knowingly or willfully, and courts applying the doctrine of willful blindness hold that defendants cannot escape the reach of these statutes by deliberately shielding themselves from clear evidence of critical facts that are strongly suggested by the circumstances.

    So… hmm.

  21. 21.

    WaterGirl

    @MattF: That’s good.  The thing is, he is not being prosecuted for anything he said on Jan 6, he is being prosecuted for actions he’s taken.  I don’t understand why the media just repeats the first amendment stuff when that’s not what he is being charged with.

  26. 26.

    Alison Rose

    @MattF: This whole willful blindness thing sounds like such horseshit to me. If you get pulled over doing 40 in a 25 and you tell the cop you thought it was still a 35, you’re still gonna get a damn ticket.

  27. 27.

    zhena gogolia

    @HumboldtBlue: That tweet is so right — they never cover all the positive stuff Biden does. I flip through the New York Times, and it’s all trumptrumptrump. If the name Biden is mentioned, it’s preceded by “Hunter.” I hate them all.

  28. 28.

    mvr

    I’m assuming that Meadows’s testimony here would be admissible against him at trial, since it is voluntarily given.  So far as I know there was no grant of use immunity for this testimony.

    Is it also admissible against co-defendants?  I believe I remember that the confession of one conspirator can be used against all in conspiracy cases, but my memory might be wrong. As I understand it confessions get into evidence at all because they are considered reliable insofar as they are statements against the interests of the person making them.  But that would cut two ways since insofar as they implicate the person making the confession it would be apt to be reliable; but insofar as they might implicate others and offload culpability to these others it would be less apt to be reliable.

    And again, my memory might be wrong so I would like to hear from someone who knows the law on confessions in conspiracy cases.

    Thanks!

  30. 30.

    UncleEbeneezer

    Dylan Mulvaney makes cheeky nod to Bud Light backlash after Streamy Awards win:

    “I look around this room and I see so many amazing allies that have platforms, and I think allyship right now needs to look differently. And you need to support trans people publicly and proudly.”

    Dylan continued: “I think the trans community and the creator community actually have something in common. And it’s that people often underestimate us.

    “But I know that we can stay optimistic about the future of trans-ness in general, because if we can influence people to buy $22 Erewhon smoothies, we can also do this.”

    Of course, Dylan couldn’t leave the stage without making a crack at the absurd Bud Light controversy.

    Closing out her speech, she jibed: “I love you so much, thank you, thank you, thank you. I’m gonna go have a beer!”

  34. 34.

    eclare

    I still can’t get the image of TFG’s mugshot next to the photo of Jack Nicholson from The Shining out of my head.  It’s uncanny.

    At least TFG isn’t strong enough to swing an axe.  And he doesn’t know how to type.

  35. 35.

    JWR

    Speaking as a disinterested observer, (wink wink), I’d say that those two images are practically indistinguishable!

    @Chetan Murthy:

    SFB (h/t Ruckus) has trafficked in Big Brother images in the past:

    That second image was probably what had my minds eye thinking about putting Big Brother next to our sh*tty EX preznit’s mug.

    And yes, WaterGirl, you have permission to “out” me as the culprit. ;)

  36. 36.

    Alison Rose

    @HumboldtBlue: HE DID AT THE WHARTON SCHOOL OF FINANCE WHERE THEY DID NOT TEACH HIM THE WORD MUGSHOT APPARENTLY

    (Also hopefully my sarcasm came through in the previous tweet. If kids screamed like that for him it was in terror and nothing less.)

  38. 38.

    LAO

    @Alison Rose: I think you’re misunderstanding “willful blindness.” The concept is simple, a defendant cannot bury his head in the sand (ignore bad facts) and then claim he/she lacked the knowledge to intentionally commit a bad act. The DOJ understands this and has crafted the J6 case along those lines. It’s not a defense,  it’s a prosecutorial tool to counter a defendant!s claim that he/she acted in good faith and without the intent to commit a crime.

  40. 40.

    RSA

    @MattF: Nice. Elsewhere I’ve commented that Simon Blackburn, in his book Truth, does a nice job explaining the idea of willful blindness. He quotes the opening of William Clifford’s “The Ethics of Belief” (1877):

    A shipowner was about to send to sea an emigrant-ship. He knew that she was old, and not overwell built at the first; that she had seen many seas and climes, and often had needed repairs. Doubts had been suggested to him that possibly she was not seaworthy. These doubts preyed upon his mind, and made him unhappy; he thought that perhaps he ought to have her thoroughly overhauled and refitted, even though this should put him to great expense. Before the ship sailed, however, he succeeded in overcoming these melancholy reflections. He said to himself that she had gone safely through so many voyages and weathered so many storms that it was idle to suppose she would not come safely home from this trip also. He would put his trust in Providence, which could hardly fail to protect all these unhappy families that were leaving their fatherland to seek for better times elsewhere. He would dismiss from his mind all ungenerous suspicions about the honesty of builders and contractors. In such ways he acquired a sincere and comfortable conviction that his vessel was thoroughly safe and seaworthy; he watched her departure with a light heart, and benevolent wishes for the success of the exiles in their strange new home that was to be; and he got his insurance-money when she went down in mid-ocean and told no tales.

    What shall we say of him? Surely this, that he was verily guilty of the death of those men. It is admitted that he did sincerely believe in the soundness of his ship; but the sincerity of his conviction can in no wise help him, because he had no right to believe on such evidence as was before him. He had acquired his belief not by honestly earning it in patient investigation, but by stifling his doubts. And although in the end he may have felt so sure about it that he could not think otherwise, yet inasmuch as he had knowingly and willingly worked himself into that frame of mind, he must be held responsible for it.

  41. 41.

    Roger Moore

    @eclare:

    At least TFG isn’t strong enough to swing an axe. And he doesn’t know how to type.

    At least he doesn’t have to worry about all work and no play turning him into a dull boy.

  42. 42.

    Brachiator

    I remember Republicans swooning over how manly ‘Texas Cowboy’ George W Bush was.

    A news story from 2007 acknowledged Dubya’s swagger, but also noted how phony it was.

    President Bush may like to be seen as a swaggering tough guy with a penchant for manly outdoor pursuits, but in a new book one of his closest allies has said he is afraid of horses.

    Vicente Fox, the former president of Mexico, derided his political friend as a “windshield cowboy” – a cowboy who prefers to drive – and “the cockiest guy I have ever met in my life”.

    He recalled a meeting in Mexico shortly after both men had been elected when Mr Fox offered Mr Bush a ride on a “big palomino” horse.

    Mr Fox, who left office in December, recalled Mr Bush “backing away” from the animal.

    ”A horse lover can always tell when others don’t share our passion,” he said, according to the Washington Post.

    Mr Bush has spoken of his fondness for shooting doves and cutting brush on his Crawford ranch in Texas, which he bought in 1999.

    The property reportedly has no horses and only five cattle.

    I think that Reagan at least knew how to ride a horse.

  43. 43.

    eclare

    @HumboldtBlue:

    As always, kids can tell who is genuine.  They loved Obama, they love Joe.  They recoiled from TFG.  And Cruz’s own daughters recoiled from him.  Who wouldn’t.

  44. 44.

    SPN in CO

    If Meadows didn’t care to know whether the lawyers on the phone were government or campaign, it becomes laughable to claim it was an official duty of his formal governmental role as the President’s Chief of Staff.  Because the prosecutors in this case have taken their time creating a well-thought-out case in terms of what can be prosecuted successfully, we in the larger and more impatient population have developed a dread that they are getting away with things.    As I see it, taking a couple years to put together a case against the former President and his assistants is actually a good thing.

    If we had instead had a hastily-assembled and poorly developed criminal case filed too early, he would be more likely to have been acquitted – which would be much worse for democracy than letting him run around spouting his nonsense for the time it takes to develop an airtight prosecution.

  47. 47.

    karen marie

    @BR:   She wrote that before Meadows testified.  It will be interesting to see what she has to say now.  I just read through the threadreaderapp provided above, and while IANAL it sure looks to me like Meadows admitted that his actions were outside the scope of his job.

  54. 54.

    Ruckus

    @Albatrossity:

    I don’t believe that Meadows is in any way dumber than SFB.

    I’m not sure that he’s any more honest though. We’ll find out if he ever has to testify. But possibly here’s the catch. His EGO might just not be quite as over stretched. Might Not Be….

  56. 56.

    LAO

    @bjacques: I read somewhere, that the defendant likes to scowl because he thinks it makes him look like Winston Churchill. Which, quite frankly, I find hilarious. Is there anyone less statesmanlike then him?

  57. 57.

    RaflW

    So, peeps. WTF do we do with this ↓? (I’m also seeing that WI Republicans are whipping up a ‘scandal’ for Justice Protasiewicz to get her to recuse, or face state lege impeachment).

    @maddow
    “Georgia Republicans Say They’ll Move to Remove Fulton County DA Fani Willis From Office With New State Law”

    These f**ers are still going for the brass ring, and just ‘voting them out’ in ’24 is not going to be soon enough. I’m pessimistic that the center can hold. Anyone able to help me back off the ledge here? I don’t want to be this alarmed.

  58. 58.

    opiejeanne

    I didn’t recognize the other guy because I’ve only seen the movie with John Vernon in that role.

  59. 59.

    Ruckus

    @Brachiator:

    Hell, I know how to ride a horse.

    And I was born and raised in Los Angeles county.

    Not a freaking rodeo cowboy for sure but I have ridden horses. Yes that’s more than one. I’ve ridden a number of times.

  60. 60.

    LAO

    @Albatrossity: I don’t think Meadows is stupid at all. Rather, I think he’s a savvy political operator (I say this not in admiration), and he’s calculated that admitting the Hatch Act violations is less damaging than facing prosecution in the state of Georgia. I hope it’s fruitless and he loses his bid to move the case to federal court. And then all of his admissions are used against him in state court.
    Testifying was, for him the lesser bad choice when he has no good choices.

  62. 62.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @LAO: In the most famous picture of Churchill scowling at the camera, the photographer got the Churchill to look that way by snatching the cigar out of his mouth just before clicking the shutter (at least that’s what Manchester said in his Churchill bio).

  64. 64.

    LAO

    @WaterGirl: I have a very difficult time believing that he is a fellow Quaker. I haven’t admitted to graduating from Penn since 2016. 🤦🏻‍♀️

  66. 66.

    Cameron

    @LAO: A couple years ago I read a comment from one of his Wharton professors that DJT was the dumbest student he ever had.  Of course, the prof was probably a libtard – you know what those business school people are like.

  67. 67.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @LAO: The thing is it wasn’t part of his federal duties to violate the Hatch Act, so I am not sure how confessing to it helps him.

    OT:  I saw that you said your brother was a first responder at Sandy Hook.  Does he still live in Newtown?  I lived there when I was in middle school.

  68. 68.

    Ruckus

    @LAO:

    THIS.

    Anyone involved with SFB and who isn’t running for the hills or the DA’s office is very likely an idiot. And while I don’t approve of his seeming political views I do not think Meadows is an idiot. I do believe that he’s gotten in way over his skis and is like going to have to pay a price for that. But I don’t think he got the job because he was or was likely to be prejudicial to SFB. I believe he got the job because he believed the politics of SFB. I can’t make that connection without him having something wrong going on inside his thickish skull.

  69. 69.

    Mai Naem mobileI

    @LAO: i don’t think Meadows is stupid but I don’t think he’s all that smart. He wouldn’t have taken the job of COS if he was smart and he sure as heck would have stayed far from the insurrection stuff. The consequences of working for TFG were glaringly obvious by the time he took on the COS job.

  70. 70.

    LAO

    @Omnes Omnibus: my brother is an ATF agent working out of New Haven. He lived in Easton (which is a neighboring town) and he was the only federal agent who new where Newtown was. So he led the caravan.

  72. 72.

    Sure Lurkalot

    @eclare:

    As always, kids can tell who is genuine.  They loved Obama, they love Joe.  They recoiled from TFG.  And Cruz’s own daughters recoiled from him.  Who wouldn’t.

    Excellent points all. Same with the doggos. Think the most mellow pooch would either bite Trump or piss on his shoe.

  76. 76.

    Dmbeaster

    @Brachiator: 

    I’m curious as to how the attorneys here might view what Meadows is doing. 

    I do not practice in this area, but I understand the issue.  Meadows’ motion is a Hail Mary as he is desperate to avoid being part of the big party.  His conduct in question all involves his efforts to assist Trump’s election effort.  None of that is official business being performed by the Chief of Staff.  His testimony appears to have been stupidly awful.  It seems to have boiled down to Trump told me to do it as his Chief of Staff, so therefore it was official business.  I was just following orders.

    That does not make it a federal case.  The orders have to relate to a government function of the office of the President.  These all relate to Trump’s election effort.

  77. 77.

    raven

    Maybe I wasn’t clear that Judge Jones is the judge who will rule on the motion by Meadows.

    CNN — 
    Federal district Judge Steve Jones of the Northern District of Georgia will hear requests from three of the 19 defendants hoping to move their Georgia election subversion cases out of state court.
    The group, which includes former Trump White House chief of staff Mark Meadows, is trying to get the case dismissed under federal law – a determination that may impact Fulton County District Attorney Fani Willis’ case against former President Donald Trump and others. Meadows and others will present evidence about whether to move the case, while the judge has allowed the state court case to proceed in the meantime.
    Jones, a Barack Obama appointee, was confirmed by the US Senate in 2011 by a 90-0 vote. A former Superior Court judge, he grew up in Athens, Georgia, and graduated from the University of Georgia School of Law in 1987.

  79. 79.

    West of the Rockies

    As much as I loathe the guy, I bet Pompeo is glad not to have been overly invested in the Trump trash fire.  But if he thinks he will cultivate charisma between now and 2028… nah.

  81. 81.

    Brachiator

    @Ruckus:

    Not a freaking rodeo cowboy for sure but I have ridden horses. Yes that’s more than one. I’ve ridden a number of times.

    Riding a horse and being skilled and comfortable with horses is not the same thing.

    On one of my early adventures at a riding stable, the horse I chose seemed to understand that I was a rank amateur and deliberately veered off the trail and ran into a section with overhanging tree branches. Knocked me on my butt. The horse was quite a smartass, and returned to the main stables.

    I hated Reagan as a governor and a president, but people in the know said that he enjoyed being on his ranch and enjoyed riding horses.

  82. 82.

    zhena gogolia

    @Cameron: Maybe the professor was a business school professor, but let’s be clear that Trump did not get an MBA from Wharton Business School.

  83. 83.

    Redshift

    WG:

    To me, it seems like this will be the bellwether for whether this kind of bullshit will pass for legal arguments and will fly in these coup cases.

    Maybe not. Apparently, there’s considerable precedent that if one defendant succeeds in getting removed to federal court, the whole case goes to federal court (even defendants who weren’t government employees.) It seems bizarre, but I guess it’s considered less objectionable than automatically severing the defendant from the others.

  85. 85.

    wjca

    @Ruckus:

    Anyone involved with SFB and who isn’t running for the hills or the DA’s office is very likely an idiot.

    Fixed that for you.

  87. 87.

    HumboldtBlue

    @Brachiator:

    I got my first compliment for making a funny comment from Betty Cracker in relation to Bush.

    I described him as “a Connecticut Yankee in Sam Houston’s court.”

    Betty said I was the funniest person she had ever read, and I should start blogging, stat. That was on Rumproast back in them days, and that first sentence may, in fact, not be entirely true.

    Also, does anyone else, at a certain point in the thread, read comments from the bottom up? I mean, if you’re on the original thread you get down to 30-40 comments, and you’re up to date, but you come back 20 minutes later and start reading at comment #89 and work your way back up? I do.

  89. 89.

    Jay

    @Brachiator:

    One of my first jobs, was as a green Ranch Hand at the Douglas Lake Cattle company. The horses spent the winter on the range and had to be re-broken every spring. That was my job. They thought it was funny. I got bit a lot, kicked a lot, never got thrown.

    Once the horses were ready, it was fence line patrols, clearing out beaver dams, moving cattle, and then roundups.

  91. 91.

    Another Scott

    Meanwhile, indication #34134127 that generic mass polling is not a good way to set public policy or measure reality.

    It is hard to do meaningful polling.

    Catherine Rampell
    @crampell
    23h

    Six in 10 regard unemployment as a very or somewhat serious national problem.
    Unemployment is very close to a half-century low
    today.yougov.com/topics/econ…

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  92. 92.

    Cameron

    @zhena gogolia: IIRC he was an accounting prof.  Yeah, I had heard that Trump didn’t get MBA, although he got a degree in something at Penn.  Maybe at the time they had a rich kid’s Participation BA or some such.

  93. 93.

    Uncle Cosmo

    @LAO: I read somewhere, that the defendant likes to scowl because he thinks it makes him look like Winston Churchill. Which, quite frankly, I find hilarious. Is there anyone less statesmanlike then him?

    Check out Yousef Karsh’s iconic 1941 photo of Churchill and then read Karsh’s description of the situation. (I first posted this a few threads up.)

  98. 98.

    Uncle Cosmo

    @WaterGirl: ​Trump said again in one of his social media posts today that he was “indicated” – what a maroon.

    So all the jackals who misspell words in their posts are maroons too, right? C’mon, man.** There’s plenty of better things about TIFG to hammer him for.

    ** Even a spell checker wouldn’t have helped anyone who bothered to use it, since “indicated” is a perfectly spelled word, just the wrong one.

  100. 100.

    Elizabelle

    @LiminalOwl:   Good catch.

    The only high point of the Titan story is that Stockton Rush went boom with his submersible.  Sad. And sadly preventable.

  101. 101.

    David 🌈 ☘The Establishment☘🌈 Koch

    Maybe it’s because they were both morbidly obese but Dump’s looks more like Hermann Goering’s mugshot. (Photo)

  103. 103.

    LiminalOwl

    @LAO: You don’t read the letters column in the alumni mag, do you? I stopped acknowledging a Penn connection decades ago.

    TFG and his offspring seem to be consistently supported by a majority of the alumni.

  105. 105.

    Mike in NC

    Mark Meadows ran some sort of sandwich shop in western NC until he decided to run for Congress. Then he gave up that safely Republican gerrymandered seat because he ached to be Fat Bastard’s CoS. Be careful what you wish for, motherfucker! Meadows should get at a minimum 10-20 years for his role in the coup.

  108. 108.

    RSA

    @LiminalOwl:  Am I the only person who read this and thought (also) of the submersible Titan?

    Wow! It’s a spot-on analogy, and thanks for mentioning it, because it didn’t occur to me.

  111. 111.

    Steeplejack

    @Cameron:

    Trump got a bachelor’s degree in economics from the Wharton School, which does have some undergraduate programs. But he says “Wharton School” and leaves it to people to assume he got an M.B.A.

  112. 112.

    Alison Rose

    There’s an op-ed at NYT titled “A Fitting Final Gift From Jimmy Carter” and for a second I was like WAIT DID HE DIE and then I realized that this news would not be confined to the op-ed page.

  116. 116.

    Alison Rose

    @Elizabelle: Yeah, I hope it has an impact. My Dad was home on hospice for his last few weeks, and it was a huge help for my Mom. He’d been shuttled between the hospital and a sort of rehab place for about a month, and she wanted him home once they realized there wasn’t anything left they could do for him. But caring for him herself would have been difficult, things like bed-bathing and such. The hospice team was incredibly helpful for her and made those last weeks a little bit easier, in that way at least.

  117. 117.

    Glidwrith

    @RSA: Why is this concept of willful blindness not applied to all the crap surrounding the need for access to abortions? Women die from pregnancy complications, fetuses can be malformed and won’t survive. These are indisputable facts. How is ANY of what the religious fanatics are doing actually permissible in a court of law?

  119. 119.

    Brachiator

    @HumboldtBlue:

    I described him as “a Connecticut Yankee in Sam Houston’s court.”

    Great description. I was not a huge fan of the show, but I remember a King of the Hill episode where a character said that the only true Texan was somebody actually born in the state.

    ETA. I will often read the first comments in a thread to get a feel for the discussions, and then skip down and read from the bottom up. Especially if it is a long thread with many comments.

  120. 120.

    LAO

    @LiminalOwl: oh good lord no! I think the gazette gets sent to my childhood home. Personally, I’m not a big believer that where you go to college matters (beyond maybe your first job) I met plenty of morons at Penn. It also occurred to me that I also may be a moron.
    I’m a fairly low key person, I haven’t worn a piece of college paraphernalia since I graduated. One day, I was getting on the elevator in my apartment building and there was a younger woman that I was friendly with because we used the same dog walker and our dogs were buddies. She was very NYC snobby and she was wearing a penn P cap. So, I say “oh, are you a fellow Quaker?” She looked me up and down and said, in total disbelief, “you went to Penn?”  I could stop laughing, the girl was shocked. Good times.

  122. 122.

    sxjames

    Also, does anyone else, at a certain point in the thread, read comments from the bottom up? I mean, if you’re on the original thread you get down to 30-40 comments, and you’re up to date, but you come back 20 minutes later and start reading at comment #89 and work your way back up? I do.

    @HumboldtBlue: Yes I do that also.  Although I usually end up going back to where I left off if there is a particularly detailed discussion I want to follow.

  123. 123.

    Elizabelle

    @Alison Rose:  I was thinking about that.  Had started to type “in the face of losing so many patients.”  But loss is the wrong metric.  It is the expected outcome, and making it less painful and frightening, as possible, is the work.

    JEC has lasted about six months since his decision to enter hospice, and that may be on the long side.

    I think the hospice staff is there as much for the family/caregivers as for the patient.  Maybe more.

    Also wonder if JEC entered hospice a tad early, so that he could be sure to be home and with his beloved Rosalynn, suffering from dementia.

    I will love it if Jimmy Carter makes it to 100, comfortably.

    You won’t remember him, probably, but WaPost humor columnist Art Buchwald got kicked out of hospice at one point, for surviving too long.  That was kind of cool, and he found it amusing.  You’re dealing with an estimate of patient’s remaining time; not a guarantee.

  124. 124.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    @LAO:

    Do you have any thoughts on the potential impact that the new state law, SB92, that’s coming into effect that could potentially mean Willis’ removal as Fulton County DA, could have on the case?

  125. 125.

    Alison Rose

    @Elizabelle: I know what you mean, though. Being a witness to that many end-of-life times must be hard to process sometimes. And yeah, I think any prognoses that doctors give at that point are very tentative. When my Dad went home, the doctor said it could be up to a couple of months, and it ended up being about three weeks. But I don’t fault medical staff for that, there’s just no way to be sure at all.

  126. 126.

    Ruckus

    @Uncle Cosmo:

    I just found out that a man came from the same country as my father’s lineage, with the same last name and there was a US Navy ship named after him who might have been in my lineage and the time makes reasonable sense. He secured 2 medals of honor so I’m actually doubting this but still I served on a sister ship in the USN of the same design and age. I doubt that he was in any way directly but  it is possible he had a brother, I can’t find that info.

    This world can not be that small.

  130. 130.

    Sister Golden Bear

    @Brachiator:

    If he were smart, he would confess and grovel for a pardon. Problem is, he ain’t smart.

    And he’s an off-the-chart narcissist, it would mean admitting he did something viewed as shameful,* and for narcs that’s quite literally a fate worst than death. He literally cannot do that.

    *Narcs are incapable of feeling shame themselves, but they’re acutely conscious of being perceived by others as shameful. Much like your dog is incapable of feeling shame about eating your favorite shoes, but does know that you’re displeased about it.

  131. 131.

    LAO

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): I’m concerned and have been for a while. The only positive, according to my understanding, is that nothing can be done to remove Willis with out Kemp’s involvement. So who knows. The removal of elected DAs is so fascist it makes me sick.

  132. 132.

    Ken

    @SPN in CO:  he would be more likely to have been acquitted – which would be much worse for democracy than letting him run around spouting his nonsense for the time it takes to develop an airtight prosecution.

    Indeed, the spouting of the nonsense helped build the case, insofar as it was bragging about crimes that had been committed.

  133. 133.

    Sally

    @Brachiator: I see fear too.  I see misery.  He’s been a criminal his entire life, and can’t understand how he is not still getting away with just more illegal acts.

  135. 135.

    JoyceH

    This is a ways down the road, but it occurred to me to wonder – for these trials in GA and DC, where is Trump going to stay? Surely he’s not going to commute from Bedminster every day. Trump has this tendency to only stay at properties he owns unless he absolutely can’t help it. Sleeps in his own hotels or clubs, eats in his own restaurants. I don’t think he’ll be able to do that for the trials, and suspect the whole thing will make him increasingly nervous.

  136. 136.

    Shalimar

    @Elizabelle: I am very happy with all the personnel from my step-dad’s time on Hospice care except for his doctor, who belongs in hell.

    The Hospice company convinced mom to sign up so she could get extra help with him, nurses coming by to check on him several times a week.  He was having trouble breathing so mom called an ambulance that took him to the emergency room, where the doctor said he needed surgery to drain fluid from his lungs.  He had this surgery 3 times previously and it helped greatly for months after.

    The Hospice doctor was angry he was taken to the hospital, would not authorize the surgery, and sent him home, where he was dead within a week from something which was easily treated.  Doctor said it was end of life and he would have died anyway.  She never even saw him personally, just looked at his charts during a phone consultation.  Horrible person.

  137. 137.

    Chetan Murthy

    @JoyceH: A Google search says there’s a Trump Towers condos in Atlanta.  Who knows, maybe he can stay there.  I’m just spitballing.

  138. 138.

    Ruckus

    @JoyceH:

    suspect the whole thing will make him increasingly nervous.

    Breaks my heart in, let’s see one piece. IOW not so much. He’s made his bed, no one else has. Given his size he’s an overgrownass man but given his personality, he’s a snotty assed 8 yr old. At best. And no, I don’t mean that in the nicest way…..

  139. 139.

    frosty

    @Jay: ​You’ve really been all over and done everything. You’re one of the two or three commenters here who should write an autobiography. There are classes in this, my mom took one.

  140. 140.

    H.E.Wolf

    @RaflW: I’m pessimistic that the center can hold. Anyone able to help me back off the ledge here?

     Taking one small, concrete action – volunteering your time and/or money, especially at the local level – is a very effective mood lifter for me. It’s one of the reasons I write GOTV postcards.

    I’ve also made some choices in news consumption. I go to Electoral-Vote.com for daily news (they post Mon through Fri, with a Q&A format on Sat; posted at ~ 9 AM Eastern Time). In contrast to many other sources, they refrain from OMG_WTF_PANIC_NOW!!1!! types of coverage.

    I’m not a head-in-the-sand optimist; plenty of our family history intersected in devastating ways with big events in the 20th century. What our family history also contains is a lot of very effective rolling up of one’s sleeves and getting to work. :)

    On which note, I’ll add that I’m looking forward to finding out what kinds of activism WaterGirl will have in store for us jackals in 2024. There have been some tantalizing hints!

  141. 141.

    Gary K

    @WaterGirl: Thanks for your question about Mastodon’s dark mode, because it made me realize (after months on Mastodon) that it’s a customizable feature, and now I’m using it in light mode — much better, in my opinion.

  143. 143.

    Jay

    @Jager:

    “English” saddles are riding saddles. If all you are doing is riding, jumping or racing a horse, or doing horse therapy, they are the best saddles for the job.

    “Western” saddles are working saddles, weigh extra, are harder on the horse, but are more like tractors than a sports car. They have utility.

  144. 144.

    frosty

    @Alison Rose: ​I have a friend from my last job, a Marketing Coordinator, who chucked writing proposals to go to nursing school to be a hospice nurse. It’s her calling and she’s really happy about the change. I’d add a line to my will asking for her at my end if it wouldn’t be too weird.
    Hospice was great for my father in the last weeks of Parkinson’s. Kudos to Carter for bringing it to MSM attention.​

  145. 145.

    Ruckus

    @Shalimar:

    I met a doctor like that once. One of my best friends in this world had Sickle Cell and she would have attacks and be hospitalized for a few days and properly cared for and be released and fine. Till the last attack and the doctor from hell. This racist fuck did nothing for her and she died from his shitty care. Her partner was going to sue the bastard for all he could possibly be worth but really there wasn’t a way to prove what a fucking racist ass this fucker was and that his standard of care was who gives a fuck about a – insert n word here.

    I won’t say what crime I was contemplating, just let’s say it would not have been a misdemeanor.

  148. 148.

    Nettoyeur

    @Another Scott:  There was a big article today about how ALL the businesses in downtown Knoxville TN are desperately seeking to hire , and new business are trying to move in. I am ild enough to remember when central Knoxville was considered to ve in its death throes .

  149. 149.

    Doc Sardonic

    @Jay: Yeah, I ain’t working cows, roping, etc on one of those damn postage stamp saddles. Not that I am doing that anymore, I’m too old for that shit.

  151. 151.

    Punchy

    I have to believe Meadows is trying to stall and finagle this trial, being his only real opp to avoid the pokie is the mass pardons that would be handed out by the next R pres….

  152. 152.

    Jay

    @Doc Sardonic:

    I don’t do bareback any more. In my old age, the horse’s spine cuts hard. It is special to have a horse bow it’s head, press it into your chest, for scooches and rubs. That warm hay breath, like cut grass.

  154. 154.

    NotMax

    @Punchy

    No presidential pardons for state crimes. If removal from  state to federal court should occur, it is still a state offense being tried and still not subject to presidential pardon.

  155. 155.

    StringOnAStick

    @Jay: We made friends last year with a 31 year old farrier; the guy is amazing with all animals.  His dog is the smartest, most well trained dog I have ever met and his skills with horses blow me away.  I had a pony and then a horse as a teen, so I have an idea of what I’m talking about here; I’ve never seen anything like it in person.

  156. 156.

    Jay

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    On each side of a Western Saddle, below the seat, is a flank pad of leather, underneath that, another leather pad, often backed with felt. In between is a buckle, like a belt buckle, which raises or lowers the stirrups by about an inch.

    If you are a novice, you want the stirrups adjusted to the point where when you are standing full up on the stirrups, there is about 2 inches between your butt and the saddle.

    Prevents pommel injuries.

    If you are experienced, you want 5 to 6 inches gap, so that at speed on a downslope you can drop your butt back over the back of the saddle and onto the horse’s haunches, to better distribute your weight and prevent a front somersault or trip.

    With Range Horses, the key thing to watch out for is “blow” or “barreling”. They will suck in a lung full of air, and hold it. They will hold it until you cinch the belly strap. They will let you ride out about a mile, exhale, take a hard right and the saddle will slip off and put you in the dirt. Then they trot back to the corral and eat some hay.

    When a horse “barrels” you, you give it a moderate tap in the sternum, then when it exhales, you cinch the belly strap,

  157. 157.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Jay: ​
      I merely was saying that I have no experience with that kind of saddle or riding. That’s all.

  160. 160.

    piratedan

    there are times like today when I feel like most of my existence as a political junkie leaves me encapsulated in amber.   Trying to avoid feeling like prey hypnotized by a cobra that is the constant sociopathic entity that makes up the Conservative movement.  I have to remind myself that while I am still armed with my vote and knowing that there are many working tirelessly against those forces aligned against us.

    I guess it’s just that some days are so full of sighs that I fear I may hyperventilate.

  161. 161.

    CaseyL

    @Jay: I like to ride, but some of my best bonding experiences with horses was just hanging out with them in the pasture.  My horse and I used to play tag (he once playfully, meaning no ill will at all, nipped my nose and for a dreadful moment I thought he’d bitten it clean off, that’s how much it hurt) (and no, I didn’t yell or freak out at him; he really was just being playful).

    I love how they feel, how they smell, and would quite happily stand next to my horse (or any horse) burying my face in their neck.

    I just love horses.  Only owned one for a few years – lordy, they’re expensive, and a lot of work – but it was a grand few years. I sold him to someone who could train him better and ride him more often.  He’s still around, last I checked, and happy as a clam.

  162. 162.

    Jay

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Ah, never ridden a horse.

    You should some time.

    My favorite horse of all time was Pepsi. Sweetheart, but hated having any other horse in front of her. MustangX. Had two speeds, smelling the flowers and turbo and man she was fast.

    And smart.

    I was her favorite rider, because I gave her, her head, and carrots.

    At times, I would sleep with her in her stall, to make sure she was “my horse” when we were doing hard work like moving cows.

  163. 163.

    karen marie

    @Chetan Murthy: He doesn’t own it, they pay him to use his name. I’m surprised any such agreement is still in effect. A bunch of buildings got name changes after he was elected because the residents didn’t want the stain of association.

  164. 164.

    Odie Hugh Manatee

    @Uncle Cosmo:

    Republicans harp on every single fucking thing Biden (or any other Democrat) does, no matter how small. If you want to give him this then go right ahead and do it.

    The rest of us can enjoy shitting on the FORMER President of the United States for not knowing the correct word to use.

  165. 165.

    Viva BrisVegas

    Sometimes events can make you consider how karma works.

    Joe Wurzelbacher, aka “Joe the Plumber” dead at 49 from pancreatic cancer.

    Rest in Hell.

  166. 166.

    Jay

    @CaseyL:

    When we bought “The Place”, the tenants left their horses there, (early winter). They wern’t really responsible people. They took the goat, the sheep, the chickens I think, and all but one of the cats and kittens, (We adopted Lil’Bit),

    2 MustangX’s and 2 Belgians.

    They wern’t feeding them, so I hauled up hay and made sure they were fed every day. Also bulk bags of carrots and apples.

    I learned that when a Belgian pushes it’s head into you, while you are rubbing it’s nose and neck, while feeding it a carrot, on a half frozen peat bog, you go knee deep.

    It’s hard to get out gracefully.

  167. 167.

    Brachiator

    @Sister Golden Bear:

    And he’s an off-the-chart narcissist, it would mean admitting he did something viewed as shameful,* and for narcs that’s quite literally a fate worst than death. He literally cannot do that.

    I don’t think that Trump cares about shame. Feeling shame or avoiding shame doesn’t motivate him.

    I think he cares about being seen as a loser, which is not quite the same thing.

    And once he wants something, he must have it. And he will do whatever he can to obtain it and to convince others that he deserves it.

    This is his undoing. There is no limit to what he will do, and what he will try to convince others to do, in order to fulfill his desire.

    He can’t say to himself or to anyone, “I have gone too far.”

    It’s funny. My cousin has a new puppy who tries to eat my cousin’s shoes. The puppy for now only knows his desire, but he can learn that this displeases my cousin, or at least that she will not let him eat her shoes.

    Trump doesn’t have the intelligence that even a puppy has.

  168. 168.

    piratedan

    @Viva BrisVegas: yeah, the guy who fought against getting healthcare help from the government , dies with a medical gofundme…

    irony, she still walks among us does she not?

  171. 171.

    Jay

    @Brachiator:

    Quite often puppies often eat your shoes, ( or in the case of Sugar, or Casey, stick their noses in them until the contents are moist, okay soaked), is separation anxiety . They miss you and your shoes carry the strongest scent you have,

    I don’t know why TFIG eats shoes though,…..

  172. 172.

    Matt McIrvin

    @LAO: I once worked at a large software company where the lawyers told us never to *look* at a patent database, because it was essentially impossible to avoid violating software patents and any evidence that you had ever looked at a patent could be used to get triple damages from a knowing violation. Was this bullshit? (Granted it’s civil rather than criminal law.)

  173. 173.

    Paul in KY

    @Ruckus: I’m afraid of them.  That’s a very big creature right there. One of it’s favorite defense actions is biting.

  174. 174.

    Paul in KY

    @Elizabelle: Also a couple of miser billionaires (misers as they had the money to correctly build their own ‘working’ sub and not get in that BS contraption).

  175. 175.

    Miss Bianca

    @Brachiator:

    I think that Reagan at least knew how to ride a horse.

    Indeed, he was an avid horseman. And so far as I’m concerned, that’s his one redeeming facet.

  178. 178.

    evodevo

    @Jay:  If you can invest in some used harness, Belgians can be REALLY handy for pulling trucks out of the mud, hauling trees out of the woods, etc.  Friends of ours raised them, and they were used for all kinds of stuff.  One friend contracted with the electric company to use his team to drag electric wire up steep hills and through rough country here in KY.  They got them some new-fangled track pullers to replace the teams, and they all turned over and fell back down the slopes.  The teams would automatically compensate for changes in pull angle or load shift or whatever, and the machines failed to do that.  Nowadays with AI I suppose it’s different, but he made a good living renting out their services up to the 1990’s…

  179. 179.

    Burnspbesq

    @karen marie:

    If the judge is inclined to remand the case to state court, Meadows gave him plenty of raw material from which to craft an appeal-proof opinion and order.

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