Well, let’s see. Slow news day.
Judge Jones DENIES Mark Meadows’ Emergency Motion to STAY his case pending appeal. So now it’s up to all the legal arguments from both sides, which are due tomorrow, I believe. But I believe they would only grant a STAY in this case if his appeal had a good chance of prevailing. Bad day for Mark Meadows.
Did everyone see that Boebert had to be “escorted” out of a theater because of all the complaints about her? Vaping in the theater (not allowed), taking photos (not allowed), being loud and rowdy (not allowed). They gave her a warning, and she basically told them to fuck off. They said they would have to call security, she told them to fuck off. They said they would have to call the police, and she told them to fuck off. So after the intermission, when they got yet one more complaint, she was “escorted” out of the theater.
Judge In-the-bag-for-Trump Cannon has finally entered a protective order governing disclosure of classified information during the discovery process. I’m too lazy to look it up, but I believe she delayed that for something like a month. The fucking protective order for classified information.
This doesn’t seem quite right – could this be true?
JUST IN: White House Issues Memo to U.S. Media Leaders
“It’s time for the media to ramp up its scrutiny of House Republicans for opening an impeachment inquiry based on lies.”
Impeachment is grave, rare, and historic. The Constitution requires “treason, bribery, or other high
— Heidi Przybyla 🌺 (@HeidiReports) September 13, 2023
Remember all those logic “word problems” in school, that you either loved or hated? (I loved them.)
Anna Bower came up with this one. Are there any sets of 2 or more people who could be tried together?
One more random thing in the news. In 2020, Trump’s Department of “Justice” issued a bullshit OLC opinion that impeachment inquiries are not valid unless they are based on an official vote of the House. Yesterday, the Squeaker didn’t put it up for a vote, surely because he didn’t have enough votes to pass it. Well, now they are stuck with Trump’s stupid OLC memo.
Speaking of OLC (Office of Legal Counsel) memos, I do not understand why Biden’s legal eagles haven’t issued a bunch of OLC memos that contradict some of the bullshit ones we are stuck with.
Open thread.
Scout211
No news? Here’s some sad news:
MattF
I would not want to be tried alongside anyone named ‘Chesebro’.
WaterGirl
@Scout211: That’s horrible! What a devastating loss. One minute they are there, the next they are not. Impossible to comprehend.
WaterGirl
@MattF: I wouldn’t want to be tried with the Kracken lady. (Is that how you spell Kracken?) edit: KRAKEN
The fact that most of them don’t want to be tried with the others is kind of telling, don’t you think?
Old School
Looks like plenty of them.
However, I’m uncertain the court needs to honor those requests.
WaterGirl
@Old School:
I beg to differ! I don’t think the courts need to honor any of them!
Baud
@Scout211:
Oh, that’s sad.
Roger Moore
Yes, because these are all requests, not demands. The judge can tell them to get stuffed if the requests are unreasonable.
Baud
Which OLC opinions are you thinking of?
MattF
@WaterGirl: Kraken. It’s also a crypto exchange.
Gravenstone
What they want and what they get need not be the same thing.
VOR
re: Judge Cannon. Remember Trump’s MO in legal issues is to delay, delay, and delay. I maintain his goal is to drag everything out long enough that he can simply pardon himself post-election – assuming he wins. He will continue to claim legal proceedings are election interference when they begin to conflict with campaign dates. As long as the MAGAts keep sending him money to pay his legal costs, a quick trial is not in his best interests. Cannon bought him a month.
trollhattan
Sydney Powell and Ken Chesebro depart Chicago on the 9:13 train, headed east @ 62mph. Rudi Giuliani and Donald Trump depart New York on the 6:54 express, headed west @74mph. Solve for the time and location democracy is restored.
trollhattan
@Scout211: That is sad. Plane crashes seem to be an occupational hazard in order to be an Alaskan. Shockingly common.
karen marie
@Gravenstone: What you’re saying is, You don’t always get what you want, but if you try, sometimes you get what you need?
Parfigliano
@Old School: I’m certain the Court does not need to honor their requests.
WaterGirl
@Baud: It seems like we are often hamstrung by them. Can’t charge a sitting president. Barr had some secret OLC memos, too.
laura
GA defendants desperately attempting to get the stank off from “those crazy people” can’t quite grasp that they are; each and every one; crazy and stanky in almost every way. It’s as though they cannot grasp the concept of criminal coconspirators.
WaterGirl
@trollhattan: Are they on the same train track, headed toward each other? I haven’t done the math, but I’d ay it’s when the two trains collide.
WaterGirl
@laura: Right! They think it’s everyone else who has the cooties.
Barney
“This doesn’t seem quite right – could this be true?” – a real question on whether the White House wrote that to media groups? Or sarcasm about someone calling out media groups?
It is true, anyway – see eg White House sends letter to news execs urging outlets to ‘ramp up’ scrutiny of GOP’s Biden impeachment inquiry ‘based on lies’ | CNN Business or White House calls on media to ramp up scrutiny of Biden impeachment inquiry (nbcnews.com)
Shalimar
@WaterGirl: Maybe you’re thinking of Krackel, the Hershey’s chocolate-covered rice bars (otherwise known as the crunchy ones that aren’t Mr. Goodbars).
WaterGirl
@Barney: Good for Team Biden! And Team Democracy.
Will the media listen?
wjca
After all, what they want is to have the charges dismissed. With prejudice.
In their dreams. Definitely not in the real world.
MisterForkbeard
@Scout211: Oh no! That’s awful. Mary Peltola (and the loved ones of all the other victims) must be heartbroken
FastEdD
There was a worksheet I used to use teaching Geometry. We were studying locus, which is just a description of a set of points. One problem described a set of points equidistant from a tree (a circle) and its intersection with the shadow of the tree in the morning (basically a line.) A compass showing North was on the diagram. Where is the buried treasure? The kids asked, “Where is the shadow? Which way is the sun? Why do I have to know this stuff?”
I loved this. My answer was, “Open the window and take a look. You have to know this because you ought to know which way the sun comes up in the morning.”
WaterGirl
Anna Bower:
Something for nothing? Trump’s was NEVER going to invoke his right to a speedy trial. Never.
WG translation:
“I get what I always wanted, delay, delay, delay, and in return you give me the other thing I want.”
indycat32
If you have 19 defendants tried together, does that mean 19 defense attorneys cross-examining each witness? I envision a lot of “asked and answered”.
Have you noticed there’s been no attacks by Trump and his sycophants on Judge Cannon. I wonder why that is.
WaterGirl
Kyle Griffin:
So much winning!
wjca
A very Trumpian definition of “compromise.” Also widely used by his acolytes.
WaterGirl
@indycat32: Imagine being a witness – say Ruby Freeman or Shaye Moss – having to go through 19 trials.
MattF
@wjca: Yes. ‘We negotiate’ means ‘I get what I want, or else’.
mrmoshpotato
@WaterGirl: These bastards sullied the name of a delicious dark rum.
Bastards.
mrmoshpotato
@trollhattan: They’re leaving, but why is this trash in my city?
WaterGirl
@mrmoshpotato: Drink enough of it, and you won’t care. :-)
mrmoshpotato
@Shalimar: Hershey’s chocolate bars with almonds for the win.
(Why didn’t I buy a pack the other day?)
mrmoshpotato
@WaterGirl: Oh no. I will care more. :)
Ken
This is why we need high-speed rail.
Oh, and in the original “Fulton County Case Motions to Sever” puzzle, Chesebro owns the zebra.
bbleh
@WaterGirl: @wjca: @MattF: “in exchange for”? Does he think he’s bargaining with the court? That sounds presumptuous enough to me that I can see where it might piss a judge off pretty royally.
Ken
I’m imagining a man with a duck standing on his head, telling the judge he doesn’t want to be tried with that crazy guy with a chicken on his head.
Wait, was that a Far Side cartoon?
Soprano2
@Scout211: Fucking small planes, I know in some places they are necessary but I doubt you could ever get me on one now. I feel so sad for Rep. Pelota. ETA – and all the loved ones of the other victims, I’m sure there were several other people on that plane. Fucking small planes…..
wjca
In all cases, they are strapped to the cattle guard (or modern equivalent) at the front of the train. Just because we are taking no chances.
Dorothy A. Winsor
@FastEdD: Someone once told me about teaching some astronomy class and assigning the student to report of the position of the moon at various times she designated. A student complained that she was making them stay at night all month. She pointed out the window to the moon.
mrmoshpotato
Oh cicadas…
rikyrah
Hoes for Hitler Are at it again in Indiana😠😠😠
https://vm.tiktok.com/ZT8j6xvPv/
AM in NC
And UNC is in lockdown AGAIN because of an armed freak on or near campus.
I called Sen Thom Tillis, and his young staffer sounded pretty disgusted (not with me, with the gun issue and the GOP stance). I think this is a place where we can do serious damage to the GOP. Most people love their kids more than guns. Make them own this ghoulish fetish garbage.
narya
Okay, since it’s an open thread. I’m visiting my parents soon. Dad is 93; his bladder cancer has returned, and he wants no more scoping, treatment, nothing. I want to talk to my mom about getting hospice care–my understanding is that there are a lot of services, that even if he’s still around in six months (which could happen!) that a doc can just renew it, and that Medicare will cover a lot of it. Mostly, I want someone other than/in addition to my mom to get specific about what my dad wants and doesn’t want, so it doesn’t suddenly fall on their heads. Dad currently has an aide three mornings a week to help shower and dress, which has been a huge relief for my mom (my brother and I nagged for MONTHS). Have any of you done anything like this? Any advice?
(No need for sympathy, though–I adore my dad, and will miss him terribly, but I mostly want him to have as pain-free and uncomplicated a death as possible, whenever it happens, and I want to support my mom in whatever ways I can.)
docNC
@AM in NC: Thom Tillis isn’t going to help anybody do anything.
Is it just me, or did Loren Boebert have an enhancement?
hueyplong
Saw elsewhere that M Romney will not seek reelection.
Tom Levenson
@karen marie: I needed this.
Doc Sardonic
@narya: Having dealt with hospice a few years ago for the last month of my mothers life, it is one of the best things that you can do. They come in, take over care and give you support, so that you can be with the patient as a family member and without need to be everything else. Medicare does cover most of it, but you probably will not see a bill from hospice.
Alison Rose
@narya: My father was under hospice care for his final weeks earlier this year, and it was a Godsend for my mom. I definitely recommend it, because there are so many things the family might not think of that will be difficult for you all to manage. Hospice will come daily and help with feeding, bed-bathing, even grooming (they trimmed my dad’s beard and clipped his nails). They can help with turning them so they don’t get bed sores. All kinds of things. Plus you’ll have a nurse on call 24/7 if you need advice or if something seems wrong. They’ll come out at any time if you need them to. My mom said all of the hospice folks were friendly and compassionate and it made having Dad home with her at the end so much easier, because she simply couldn’t have done the things that needed to be done herself.
You say he already has an aide to help with some things, but hospice can also provide the medical assistance too, which his aide may not be equipped to do. Plus the on-call factor can be very important when dealing with end-of-life care.
AM in NC
My mom went on hospice service for the last months of her life last year. I was her primary caregiver, and the hospice nurse visited once a week because I (and my sister) provided her regular care. We were lucky in that Mama was mostly functional up until the last week of her cancer. We also used the 24 hour hotline anytime we had medication or other questions, and they were very responsive.
Medicare covers 100% of hospice costs and medication/medical equipment because hospice care is far less expensive than hospital end of life.
The hospice providers were all great. The volunteers couldn’t visit because it was still COVID era. There was also a hospice center she could have been checked into for a few days at a time to give us a break as her care-givers, but we never took advantage of that. They also checked in with us by phone daily at the end to see if they were needed, so they would have come more often, but we had things covered.
I don’t know what hospice would be like if you needed it for more round-the clock care, but we had a very good experience in NC. I know our nurse did tell us he saw some sad situations where his patients had nobody else caring for them.
Sorry that you are having to go through this. Doesn’t matter how old we or they are, losing a parent stinks. Sending you strength.
AM in NC
@docNC: No, he is not. But the younger generation sees that inaction and this staffer at least didn’t sound too happy about being associated with it. I think we can peel away younger GOOPers with this issue particularly (and climate crisis).
Albatrossity
@docNC:
Looks like she had at least two…
Nelle
@trollhattan: We knew someone who died in a plane crash every year we were up there. My husband flew a lot of searches and, unfortunately, not a lot of rescues. (My husband had a few squishes, as we called them, but everyone walked away. One time, I arrived on a red eye to Fairbanks. When we went to bed, I saw he had a huge bruise all up his leg. “What happened?” “I ran into something.” The next day, I found out he ran into a mountain. In a plane. A downdraft hit the plane, he hit the mountain, and then slid down the side. But he limped away. The plane was totaled.)
I so respect Mary Petola. I grieve for her and her family
It takes a lot of fundraising to run for Congress and she won’t be interested in fundraising. Could we send her small donations to take that pressure off of her for now, at the very least?
NotMax
@MattF
The Chesebro stands alone.
//
Origuy
@rikyrah: Apparently Tiktok is blocked at my office. Not surprising.
Indiana Nazis aren’t surprising either.
Alison Rose
The caption in the article doesn’t say when or where this was taken, but LOLOL at this photo of TIFG with MTG. What a pile of ick.
Baud
@Alison Rose:
I wouldn’t even recognize him if you hadn’t said it was him.
...now I try to be amused
@laura:
Yeah, but I’ll bet they all believe they are less crazy and stanky than the rest.
Baud
@AM in NC:
I don’t know. Have you met their kids?
zhena gogolia
@Alison Rose: That was a while ago (this year, I think, but a while). I can’t remember what the occasion was. She was flirting up a storm. 🤢
Alison Rose
@Baud: He didn’t have time to slather on the bronzer, apparently.
laura
@narya: Hospice care is a wonderful thing- managing pain relief, practical matters of physical care, emotional support for family and the person who is terminal. The only aspects of care that bothered the Roadie Brothers and me was the pastoral visit that was unwanted and intrusive, and that we couldn’t cease the home aides agreement for dad’s final days when toileting was no longer an issue. Hospice helped us prepare to take over all the aspects of his care that we deeply wish to provide ourselves for dad and for us as his children. We deeply appreciated the opportunity to be of service and comfort. I wish you and your family all the best that hospice can provide.
narya
@Doc Sardonic: @Alison Rose: @AM in NC: Thank you all–I think the big challenge is going to be talking to my mom about it; she will likely resist. Neither she nor my dad is fooling themselves, I don’t think, but these things are still hard. And they are lifelong atheists, so it’s really up to me (and my brother, though he took on talking to my dad about getting an aide, so this one should be mine). Knowing in one’s heart what the situation is, and actually being able to talk about it with one’s daughter (me), are two different things. But the recent re-emergence of his cancer is the opportunity to have the conversation, I think.
Alison Rose
@zhena gogolia: I’m baffled enough by people who just support him. But the women who seem to think he’s hot, I’m just like…I would literally fill my vagina with cement before I’d let him anywhere near it.
Elizabelle
Mitt Romney is retiring. Won’t run again in 2024.
Tragic news about Mary Peltola’s husband. Not surprising in Alaska though, sadly.
Baud
@Elizabelle:
Whoa.
narya
@laura: Yeah, pastoral care is a big nope for us.
Alison Rose
@narya:
I’m not clear about this? Hospice isn’t religious-based. I mean, I suppose it sometimes can be, but it’s usually just done through your local hospital/Medicare. My mom is Jewish and Dad was agnostic, there was no religious aspect to it at all.
But I think maybe just going through all the little things that will come up that he’ll need and how hospice can help with all of it might be a good way to begin. Especially the part about on-call medical help.
E.
@indycat32: I once attended a trial of 16 Earth First! defendants in federal district court in Idaho. And yes it was a horrific mess from the perspective of the judge, prosecutor, court staff, and locals. Hysterical for the rest of us.
Roger Moore
@FastEdD:
Your students were right to complain about the question; you haven’t given them enough information. The position of the sunrise depends on the day of the year and the latitude. If you get very far north or south, there will be times of the year when it rises closer to north or south than east. If you’re inside one of the polar circles, there will be times of year when it doesn’t rise at all.
Roger Moore
@bbleh:
Yes, he does. He thinks everything is a negotiation, except he thinks negotiation means him dictating terms and the other side accepting.
Elizabelle
@Baud: He took a good swipe at Biden’s age on his way out, but so it goes. I will just love it if he eventually comes around to endorsing Biden, depending on what’s on the GOP ticket next fall.
FTF NY Times (for whom the age comment was music to their elitist ears):
WaterGirl
@zhena gogolia: There’s definitely a sexual look to that interaction. Ugh.
Barbara
@narya: My father had at-home hospice care for two months before he died of pancreatic cancer. Most hospice care is at home unless a person really can’t be medically stabilized outside of an inpatient facility. If you need something in between, you still have to pay the equivalent of room and board, but there are residential hospice facilities, sort of like nursing homes.
Prior to hospice, my dad also had in-home care providers who were at a lower level of training than the hospice nurses. In general, your best source of information for how to go about arranging for hospice is likely to be your father’s oncology team. They tend to stay out of the actual provider selection process if there is more than one choice (or they should) especially if they are affiliated with a hospice provider.
Once you make a decision to go with hospice, they will pretty much arrange everything. What I don’t know is whether once you get hospice you will be able to maintain the home care attendant. It might depend on what source of funding is paying for that person now.
Baud
@Elizabelle:
To be expected. I highly doubt he’s really retiring because he think he’s too old to serve.
HumboldtBlue
Speaking of legal matters, Hunter Biden is punching back.
Also, Mitt Romney will not seek re-election and AOC has some fun at the GOP’s expense on the subject of corrupt courts.
@Scout211:
That’s terrible news!
narya
@Alison Rose: I just meant I can’t hand the conversation off to a pastoral counselor of some kind.
skerry
@narya: My mother was under hospice care for the last 9 months of her life. They were angels. Hospice allowed my father some respite for her care and, very importantly, they taught my father and I how to care for her as her health deteriorated.
I strongly recommend getting hospice support.
Tenar Arha
@narya: Your decision to find out explicitly what your father wants is important. You can get a hospice to come out and meet with you and your mother and father. Do it as soon as you can, so if there’s a sudden crisis where he ends up in the hospital, you know what he’d want you to do and be able to insist on it with your family and the hospital.
I say this because I have the experience with my mother and my father’s end of life care. My mother waited too long to meet with hospice, she had a bad fall that broke her hip, the hospital wanted her out of there ASAP, my father wasn’t fully comfortable with her dying at home, and I had too little ammunition without that meeting. So unfortunately she didn’t get to die at home. OTOH my father had one of those crises around Christmas where he had a bad reaction to excess calcium in his system and was very confused. But because we’d already met with in home hospice, I was fully prepared to insist the hospital not discharge him, until it was possible to get set up with the hospice he wanted in his home.
IOW you’re absolutely right to insist on meeting with hospice. He doesn’t even have to be admitted to it yet, you just have to have the conversation and his preferences on the record. That’s a big part of the difference.
sab
@narya: I would recommend hospice. My dad is 99, in a nursing home with a nurse’s aide almost every day. The nursing home recommended hospice because of his dementia. He’s had them coming in for about a year.
It has been a real help to the nurse’s aide. They don’t replace her in any way. They are more of a support system. They checked his medication. They come in to provide activities and conversation. They have social workers. They have religious counsellors if hey are wanted (Dad said no but they still stop by to visit the nurse’s aide.)
My sister was upset at first but it really hasn’t felt like writing him off. It feels like more knowledgable help and some oversight.
We haven’t seen a bill yet. Medicare must cover it.
WaterGirl
@Baud: You don’t think he’s “retiring” so he can swoop in at the last minute and win the R nomination if things don’t go Trump’s way?
Elizabelle
@Baud: I would bet he is just sick to death of dealing with the MAGAs. A while back, they were harrassing him in airports.
I am happy for him. Just wish he’d not dissed Biden, but Joe probably just laughed when he heard. It’s a backhanded compliment. “Get this guy out of here before he wins again.”
narya
@Barbara: They’re paying for the home care out of pocket, so this would actually reduce the cost! Which is another thing I’m gonna mention to my mom.
Alison Rose
@narya: Ahh I see. Well, as thorny as it might be, I think it’s definitely worth the effort to have the conversation with them yourself. You can’t force it, of course, but maybe you can help them come around.
narya
@Tenar Arha: Yeah, the very big main reason I want to do this is that I want my dad to have a say–I want to do it NOW, while he can still express his wishes.
ETA: If I thought it would work I would try to get my mom to set up an appointment while I’m there, but I’m not sure I want to have that conversation over the phone. Day One, though . . . I’ve already told her we’re taking some walks.
Barbara
@narya: It might or might not reduce the cost, because home care attendants might not be considered to fall within the hospice benefit, which is part of Medicare. If Medicare doesn’t cover the services now, it might not cover them even under the hospice benefit. I looked at all this for a friend of mine when a fellow classmate had terminal cancer, but the questions tend to be highly specific to your individual circumstances. I would make a list of such questions so that you will have clarity on important issues.
The Very Reverend Crimson Fire of Compassion
@narya: Been through this many, many times, and wound up working in hospice for a decade as a result. What resources are available will vary wildly in your area. The hospital social worker assigned to your dad’s case is usually the best starting point for getting the process initiated, if you haven’t already. Other than that, it sounds like you have a loving and clear-eyed view of the process. Know that I’m holding you and your loved ones in my thoughts, and if I can be of any specific help, please feel free to dm me for further conversation (just be patient if it takes me 24 hours to respond, please.)
HumboldtBlue
@narya:
We just went through a similar ordeal with our dad, who passed on July 5.
Barbara addressed it as well as I ever could because my brother was the primary caretaker for dad before he entered hospice. I know that once hospice was involved, they took care of all the details about care from oxygen machine to bed to you name it.
It’s not easy, but our dad knew it was time, and we came to accept that as a part of his life and ultimately his death.
Now I’m crying, have some love for your family from ours.
UncleEbeneezer
@narya: To clarify: is the problem that your Dad isn’t being clear about he wants, and your request is for suggestions on how to get to that info? My wife’s Dad just died after only a couple days of hospice (in a hospice home, since he couldn’t go back to his Independent Living facility), just last month ago, so we may have some relevant experience, just trying to figure out what exactly you are looking for, before chiming in.
Roger Moore
@WaterGirl:
I think he’s being pretty honest about why he’s retiring. Dealing with the Republican fuckwits running the House can’t be a pleasant experience, and their leadership in the Senate will be no better once McConnell retires or dies. If he wins in 2024, he’s stuck either at odds with a president of the other party or one of his own party he’s twice voted to convict. That sounds miserable, and I can totally understand calling it a career and retiring while he’s still young enough to enjoy retirement.
Sure Lurkalot
@Elizabelle:
Seems to me that many of Biden’s policies are geared to those decades younger than he…pro labor, pro alternative energy, pro education.
Mitt, with his 5 children, 24 grandchildren and 1 great grandchild can’t vote for tax cuts for his ilk fast enough.
Shorter, shut the fuck up, Mitt. You don’t give a rat’s ass about anything except your net worth.
zhena gogolia
@Sure Lurkalot: Exactly.
narya
@UncleEbeneezer: I think my dad is clear about some things–he’s the one he said “no more scoping/scraping” w/r/t the bladder cancer, knowing that it had returned (based on markers showing up in blood tests, I think?). (And then joked that my mom shouldn’t buy his jugs of wine any more, that he should get wine by the glass, and no green bananas.) Neither parent wants heroic measures, hospitals, etc.–but there is a lot of care and space between. I need to convince my MOM to bring the people in, I think; she’s the one that manages his care. And I have to convince her that it’s a good thing, that it will help with all of his care (COPD, lack of mobility, etc.), and it’s not saying that he’ll die soon, though he might. I WANT YOU ALL TO GIVE ME THE PERFECT WORDS THAT WILL WORK PERFECTLY. And a unicorn.
Seriously, though, you’ve all been super helpful, and I appreciate it.
Sure Lurkalot
@Alison Rose:
I’d chop off his mushroom and stubby fingers and do all the vaginas in the world a favor.
JoyceH
@WaterGirl:
References to the Kraken always crack me up, because to me it indicates Tennyson’s poem The Kraken, about a sea monster which basically sleeps on the ocean floor. Ends:
Wellllll — that doesn’t sound particularly scary.
Sure Lurkalot
@narya:
You are so right, a very hard conversation to have. Glad to see so many juicers sharing their hospice experiences.
My only advice would be the sooner the better because as good as hospice is, it does take some time to evaluate needs and set up.
Best wishes to you and your family.
Alison Rose
@Sure Lurkalot: Hero.
Tenar Arha
@narya: Yeah. It’s a hard but worthwhile conversation to have. Good you making the question in person. It is tougher when you’re essentially getting in the middle between your parents. Also, find out if you can join her hospice meeting(s) via telehealth if you can’t be there in person.
If your parents respond to stories—my father benefited from my experience with my mother’s death. I think my brother and I were both much more involved with the hospice decision with my father because of what happened with my mother. I tend to think that my father learned from my mother’s death too. He understood however he wanted to die, he had better be very prepared, so he was on board with having the talk. (NB Thankfully we also had about an extra decade of hospital policy changes and the ACA to legally back us up when everything happened at the worst possible time to make arrangements). Fingers crossed that all your conversation(s) go smoothly.
narya
@Tenar Arha: Oddly enough, I think it’s also possible that my mother is absolutely ready for the conversation. I can hear in her voice just how very much she is looking forward to my visit. She is absolutely terrible about saying what she wants, absolutely terrible about giving voice to difficult emotions, etc.–but sometimes she just needs me to bring things up.
narya
@HumboldtBlue: I will gladly accept that love from you–and from all the rest of you jackals. Thank you.
laura
I would wish for the Art Buchwald hospice experience- he Lived It UP!
FastEdD
@Roger Moore: They were told the question referred to now. In the town we all lived in. Hence, look out the window.
frosty
@trollhattan: Need more detail: are they on the Pennsylvania or the New York Central?
CaseyL
I’m going to Florida in January to see my Mom, and am thinking this is a conversation she and I should have. She’s in relatively good health, still alert and engaged, perfectly well able to take care of herself, but she has also reached the age (and has some chronic health conditions) where one mishap could change all that in an instant.
One problem is, of course, Florida: I don’t trust any institution there to take good care of anyone, and neither does Mom.
FelonyGovt
@narya: Add me to the list of those heartily recommending hospice care. We had it for my mother-in-law, who had vascular dementia and was in bad shape for her last 4 months or so. Our only regret is that we didn’t call them in sooner- my father-in-law kind of refused to acknowledge that she was near the end. The hospice folks are wonderful, caring people who lightened our burden immeasurably.
And they asked if she wanted a member of the clergy to come visit; my father-in-law said no and it wasn’t an issue at all
ETA and add me to the outpouring of love to you. It’s so, so hard.
Barbara
@narya: I might start by saying that you need to at least understand what the choices are, and for that, you really need to talk to a hospice provider. I might also tell her that your dad always has the right to forego treatment if he wishes — he can do that without opting for hospice — but the focus of hospice is to help manage whatever time remains to reduce pain, and increase function, once someone decides that they don’t want more active treatment.
Some people benefit more from hospice than others, and there is something of an unspoken understanding that caregivers can sometimes benefit the most.
Connor
@Doc Sardonic:
Last month our six year-old daughter died from Huntington’s Disease. We absolutely would not have been able to get through the eight months of decline and care leading up to her end without the incredible people of our local hospice team. They were straight-up miracles, every one of them.
Alison Rose
@Connor: I am so incredibly sorry. What an absolutely heartbreaking and terrible thing to go through. I’m glad you had a team there to help, and I hope you continue to have all the love and support you need. I’m so so sorry <3
narya
@Barbara: That is helpful; thank you. Honestly, when I was poking around on some sites, the help available to HER, in terms of counseling, etc., was part of what caught my eye. She had asked me to help her find a therapist (good thing I was sitting down when she asked for THAT), but getting in to see someone has been impossible. She hasn’t told me why–and I haven’t asked, but instead told her that one of the best things about therapy is that everything you say is private and you can say whatever you need to say. But having professional, caring help in navigating all of this will be super helpful for her, and for my dad.
narya
@Connor: Oh, that is awful. I’m so sorry, and I’m so glad you had help during that time.
Elizabelle
@narya: Good luck to you. Your mom may be way more ready to have this conversation than you suspect.
Jimmy Carter is thriving in hospice.
Elizabelle
@Connor: My condolences to you, Connor. Very sad for your family and loved ones.
Thinking about your caregivers and hospice team. It’s one thing to aid a person at the end of a long life well lived. Maybe harder to see young lives ending too soon, but would guess the young may be the best patients.
UncleEbeneezer
@narya: As others say below, getting your Mom onboard is the toughest part. When my wife’s Mom (who died in April) was in a similar situation where things were clearly going South but her Dad was relatively in denial and in our opinion, not really acknowledging the reality of the situation, what seemed to finally get through to him was when a doctor basically told him that now it was only suffering and nothing more. That finally made him come around. It probably also informed his approach five months later when it was his own life that was eroding fast. He was pretty quick and certain in the fact that he didn’t want to try and drag things out with chemo. So perhaps there is a way to frame things with your Mom, from a perspective of minimizing your Dad’s suffering. Like our kids (though I don’t have any) I think we all really don’t want our spouses to suffer. And I think most of us understand that that may mean making hard decisions under terrible circumstances, but that that is part of the deal of what we’ve pledged to them. It’s one of the duties of our love. Perhaps you can take a similar tack without trying to make your Mom feel guilty, but to nudge her into approaching things from that perspective.
So sorry you have to deal with all this. It’s not fun.
Gravenstone
@narya: My condolences for what you and your family are facing. My stepfather has recurring bladder cancer (among other issues) and he’s driven himself anemic twice from ignoring blood loss because of it. Just another possible complication your father may face as his disease is allowed to progress at its own rate with discontinued treatment.
trnc
@trollhattan: when the trains collide and kill all the fascists onboard.
UncleEbeneezer
@CaseyL: My wife’s parents both died this year and she was dealing with facilities in (spit) Texas. But the hospitals and social workers etc were mostly good-to-great (with only a couple bad experiences). Even in horrible GOP states, the people who go into that work are generally good people doing it for the right reasons, so you may be surprised to find quality institutions, even in (spit) Florida.
narya
@UncleEbeneezer: Yeah, it took me and my brother doing a lot of nagging, and then my brother talking directly to my dad (I told bro to throw the two of us under the bus, and he did) about getting some help in for her to finally agree to it. And she is soooo happy about it–but the caregiver may be quitting (my SIL works for the care-giving agency so my mom has advance notice about this). I think the way to spin it is to say that this isn’t about sitting around waiting for him to die, it’s about making sure that whatever remaining time he has–no matter how long or short a time that is–is as good for him as it can be, and that when things really go south, they won’t have to make decisions on the fly.
Cheryl from Maryland
@narya: Maybe not on point to your question or what hospice caretakers do, but my spouse set up a Door Dash account so he could order food etc for his mother while living in another state. The twice weekly home care health aides called in a grocery list each week, received the delivery and put everything away. It was a big relief.
sab
@Cheryl from Maryland: What a good idea.
stinger
@Connor:
It can’t have been easy even just to come here and type those words. Peace to you and your family.
hotshoe
@narya:
Not really likely at hospice care will replace your family paying for a home health aid.
What hospice covers probably varies a lot depending on which state/local organization you have. But it is all intended to support the family in not taking the patient back to hospital for each new “crisis”. That’s why they will have an RN / NP return your phone call at any time, and will send a nurse to visit outside of usual visiting hours, for example, to check a wound your patient got from falling out of bed. No panic. That’s why they will make sure you have a morphine prescription for the patient and are instructed how to make him comfortable.
Hospice is not actually 24-hour care. It’s supporting the family to allow the person to die with dignity. It’s a daily reminder that it’s okay to die naturally without going into hospital to get shoved full of tubes and wires. Since that’s already your dad’s idea, he will get along with hospice just fine.
As folks have already noted, hospice provides an amazing amount of service, such as providing a hospital bed (no charge to you!) and helping with bed turns to prevent bed sores.
But as far as every morning diaper changes, help with sitting up to eat and drink, etc, don’t count on hospice for that.
Even if your mom is physically and emotionally capable of doing all that caretaking, your family should still plan on paying for home help — if there is any way you can afford it — at least a couple days a week — so mom doesn’t have to do literally all the heavy work herself.
Best wishes for you and your family.
narya
Again, thank you all for your helpful and kind words! Dad is still a bit able to get around (not bedridden), using a walker–he was pretty active before the pandemic (golf, daily trip to the clubhouse to play pool, etc.), but basically stopped moving as soon as he couldn’t go to those places. Watching his ability to move absolutely plummet has caused me to commit myself to moving as much and as long as possible. He’s mentally there, though his short-term memory is a little weak. He doesn’t read as much (he’s down to one eye, thanks to cataract surgery that went bad), his hearing is terrible (even w/ hearing aids, which he’s had for decades), and he has stopped doing daily crossword puzzles; he and my mom have been married for 67 years, so there’s not a lot to talk about, but he participates in conversations when people visit. In addition to the bladder cancer returning, he has some other stuff (COPD, chronic eczema from one of the chemo rounds, I think, managed w/ one of the new meds). In short, he’s still sorta functional, which means it’s the time to have this conversation. I really appreciate everyone’s thoughts–you’ve really given me some words to use w/ my mom, and, maybe, with dad as well
ETA: my parents are fortunate that they can pay for the additional help that some of you have noted isn’t covered by Medicare
ETA2: Mom is held together with spit and baling wire–five fused vertebrae, for example–so she can and does do a lot, but obviously can’t do (literally) heavy lifting.
Dan B
@narya: Making sure your mother is not the sole caregiver is crucial. Spouses who are caregivers for people with long illnesses often die before the person they are taking care of. A social worker may be better able to communicate with your mother than you. Hopefully there are geriatric social workers available. Hospice might know who to contact.
Doc Sardonic
@Connor: They are walking miracles, that they willingly take on the task of helping with the end of life, they truly are, and have a gift. My sincere condolences on your loss, and my prayer that the universe will wrap you and you family in it’s peace and light.
sab
@narya: Thank you for asking the question. This is a topic that needs to discussed, especially in the typical jackal demographic.
narya
@sab: I knew that a lot of folks here had/have been caring for their parents and/or in-laws–I thought I’d get some answers that would help me phrase what I say to my mom, and I did! And my dad, if it comes to that. I think the thing that might tip the balance is the access to medical advice (nurse/NP) over the phone, 24/7. I also want to find out what my mom wants when my dad dies. They’ve said they’re not going to have funerals or anything, but that doesn’t tell me what would be helpful to her. Come out ASAP? Wait a couple of weeks? Dunno.
Honestly, I’m also gonna spend time just hanging out. I told my mom I’d cook for the whole time I’m there. She’s said she’s “tired of cooking,” but that’s because, in the past, they’d go out for dinner sometimes. That’s no longer an option, and there’s not a lot of delivery options where they live, so she’s stuck doing all of it. I told her I’d do it, plus I’d fill the (small) freezer w/ whatever she wants.
Ruckus
@trollhattan:
Very often a plane is the only way or at least the only way to reasonably travel very far in Alaska.
Ruckus
@hotshoe:
My sister tried to take care of my dad, even hired a woman to help. I think that lasted about 3-4 weeks. I went to her house and she was giving dad a shower because he couldn’t manage more than standing up. I looked at her and she told me that she had no idea how hard this would be. And she had raised a son (very well BTW) on her own. But a parent? I don’t see it for the vast majority. It’s just too hard emotionally and it takes every day, all day and that adult may be bigger and heavier than you. My sister owned her own business, and that had taken second place in her world. She learned a lot in those weeks and the first thing she learned is that most people can’t do that for their parents. She had to do for her fully grown dad with Alzheimers, all the things she had done for her son as an infant/young boy. It isn’t the same, not in any way shape or form.
MaryRC
@docNC: I’m going to guess she had the pillows fluffed, yes.
Connor
@stinger:
Thank you. And thanks to everyone else who commented, sharing such kind words. Intellectually I know that our daughter Brigid came into this world already dying, and that no person or force on Earth could have given her more than the six years and five months that was programmed into her genes. But that doesn’t make the loss any easier to handle, emotionally. In some ways the knowledge actually makes it worse — I keep drowning in the fact that there is, on average, only one case of HD onset at the age of three in every 20 million births. It’s the worst lottery ticket in the world, and she pulled it at the moment of her conception.
All that said, though, she was stunningly creative, kind, loving, empathic, and happy, right up to the very end. I can’t begin to put how much I miss her into words, but surrendering to sorrow is not an option, no matter how tempting that path feels. It would not honor who and what she was.
LiminalOwl
@Alison Rose: I agree with the rest of your comment,, but I’d use a bear trap (OK, make that a mousetrap. A tiny mousetrap.) rather than cement.
(I know, thread long since dead. I attempted several comments yesterday and none posted.)
LiminalOwl
@Alison Rose: I agree with the rest of your comment,, but I’d use a bear trap (OK, make that a mousetrap. A tiny mousetrap.) rather than cement.
(I know, thread long since dead. I attempted several comments yesterday and none posted.)
LiminalOwl
@Connor: I don’t know if you’ll see this, but oh, I am so sorry. Deepest sympathy to you and yours.
LiminalOwl
@narya: (hoping you see this) Sympathy to you and your mom. I know very little about hospice, but am in various informal networks of therapists; please feel free to contact me if you’d like me to put out a bat-signal for availability in your/tour mom’s area. (Also any other jackals who are having trouble finding a provider.)
Connor
@LiminalOwl:
I saw it. Thank you for your kind words.