Commenter Lobo added this comment to the end of a thread on Wednesday.
I hope this helps:
“Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly.”
― Martin Luther King Jr., Letter from the Birmingham JailWe have to have each other’s back. They are after all of us.
For anyone who missed the conversation in this thread…
… I posed the following question:
Is there any interest in a guest post series?
What it’s like to be __________ right now?
Trans, gay, Ukrainian, female, Jewish, Palestinian, black, Russian, undocumented…. the list is much longer, and I am not signaling importance by whether a group is listed, or the order in which they are listed.
We could have one or two people writing from each group that feels particularly threatened by the authoritarian threats around us? Because I’m betting that even within a particular group everyone may not see it the same.
Happy to hear feedback, whether it’s yay or nay.
With this post, I am not trying to re-litigate things that were discussed in that thread, just trying to get a feel for whether there’s interest in a series where we hear about what life looks like from different points of view.
Life is complicated right now. If anyone wants to write a guest post for this, please send me an email message.
Otherwise this is a TOTALLY OPEN THREAD. What do you want to talk about?
J. Arthur Crank
I am still trying to wrap my head around Congressional hearings with nude witnesses.
trollhattan
@J. Arthur Crank:
Baud’s shopping for D.C. plane tickets for Pantsless Subcommittee Hearings Day.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@J. Arthur Crank: It would do wonders for C-SPAN’s ratings.
frosty
Totally Open Thread? Apparently we want to talk about nude Congressional hearings instead of injustice everywhere. Why not? That’s why we don’t have threaded comments.
ETA What’s it like to be pantsless right now? [glances out the window]. Cold, very very cold!
ETA2 Apologies in advance for making a joke out of WG’s serious topic.
Anne Laurie
I vote nay. This is victim porn — demanding people show us their wounds, so we can feel all warm & righteous about having the correct opinions.
Not against people sharing their stories, just hate the idea of setting up a sideshow here.
J. Arthur Crank
I guess there will have to be locker rooms, and towels for the witnesses to sit on. I wonder how drafty those rooms are. There are a lot of these types of issues to consider, and I current leadership of Congress is not up to the task.
trollhattan
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation: Kinda depends on who’s appearing, doncha think? “Hey, it’s Ted Cruz!”
“Yaaaaagh!”
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@Anne Laurie: I’m gay in Massachusetts. No more than a slight inconvenience. I’ve added Texas and Florida to what was originally England, France, and Russia on my travel ban list recently, though.
England and France for reasons unrelated to being gay.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@trollhattan: Some will come for the skin show, some will come for the freak show; but they will come.
Miss Bianca
@Anne Laurie: Yeah, I think I’m with you on this one.
Mostly because I’ve started seeing these back-and-forthing flame wars breaking out in the comments lately over Who’s More Oppressed These Days Anyway? and I Am Merely Making a Point About How Oppressed I Am, I Am Not Being Racist/Sexist/Anti-Trans/Anti-Semitic etc etc and I am just so…not here for it.
J. Arthur Crank
As for the serious topic of this post, I fully endorse Lobo’s quote. We have to watch out for each other. In my own little world, I have started to speak up and advocate for my colleagues who are overworked and underpaid. Change won’t happen unless we make it happen.
Chacal Charles Calthrop
@frosty: your comment did make me laugh out loud.
Other than that, I’m merely glad that here in the Northeast we are actually getting some kind of winter, even if it is only for a week.
I scattered lots of birdseed on the snow outside my windows to provide my cat with quality cat TV.
WaterGirl
@frosty: No, it’s fine. Think of this as a sign that’s been put up in the break room. Tear off the little strip of paper if you’re interested and send me an email message. :-)
JoyceH
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation: just curious – why are England and France on your travel ban list?
WaterGirl
@Anne Laurie:
You appear to have misunderstood what I am suggesting.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@JoyceH: England wants to shut themselves off from the world. Let ’em. Fuck it, Scotland interests me more anyway.
France is openly horrible to its immigrants and owes Haiti one economy, minimum.
MisterForkbeard
Do we need a post on what it’s like to be a replacement level middle-aged white dude in California? Because I’m all over that one.
Sister Golden Bear
I’ve got mixed feelings about this. OTOH, people need more than an intellectual understand of what’s going on.
OTOH, as Anne said, it’s asking people like me to show us our wounds. Plus in my case, I’m a bit gun shy given that some here helped run off a trans/non-binary front pager who was trying to educate folks about their experiences in the face of what’s been going on. Plus there have been similar situations in the past, like Angry Black Lady.
Finally, it’s not like I’ve been shy about posting about the ongoing trans genocide, and how it’s been affecting me. I realize not everyone sees my posts, especially because as a West Coast jackal I mostly post in the evenings. But if you don’t get why trans people are feeling existential terror right now, I don’t know what else I can say to you to that will make you get it.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@MisterForkbeard: I’d like to hear your story.
Geminid
I would be cautious about this one, WaterGirl. I thought that, figuratively speaking, the thread the other day generated more heat than light.
These matters come up anyway, in their own time. One of the good things about this forum is it we often get to “see what lives look like from different points of view.”
WaterGirl
@MisterForkbeard: As the most misunderstood group of all, that would, of course, be the first post!
Anne Laurie
Another highlighted sidebar, and posts sprinkled with wingdings and colored text? Nah.
People can tell their own stories, without front-pager ‘mediation’. Regularly scheduled travel pics or garden chat make sense; pulling out ‘Let me show you all my wounds’ is… not like that.
BeautifulPlumage
One of my favorite things about this blog is when someone puts their experience into words or adds a link to another’s relevant writing about their human experience as ________ . The different perspectives really help me understand how others experience life. I would welcome posts like this.
WaterGirl
@Sister Golden Bear: I’m not asking anyone to do this.
There was a lot of conversation in that thread where it was clear that some folks feel that other people do not understand what it’s like to be X.
So this isn’t asking anyone to do share what it’s like, but it is offering anyone who wants to do so the opportunity to share what it’s like – in a post that is more likely to be seen than a comment in one of 10 threads in a day.
And there’s no reason a name or nym has to be attached to the guest post.
Another Scott
@Sister Golden Bear: @Geminid:
This is kinda where I am.
Maybe they could be done without comments being enabled? But then someone could (intentionally or not) post problematic (or worse) comments in a subsequent thread… :-/
Maybe as a sidebar item without comments? Like:
“How to be an ally to:” with links to contributed posts (without comments) from anyone who wants to contribute to the project?
Dunno.
Lots and lots of people are hurting now. Talking about it can help. But talking with mostly kinda-strangers in ways that doesn’t derail the conversation here is difficult.
My $0.02.
Cheers,
Scott.
Lobo
Thanks for the acknowledgment. I would propose, maybe, another angle to this. How can we be an ally, advocate or accomplice to each other. What positive actions would help? Maybe it can be as simple as people stating, “I got your back.”
Peace & Love
schrodingers_cat
@Anne Laurie: I couldn’t have said it better myself.
Kay
“Discussion of Ballon Juice” threads are my least favorite threads. Be careful or you’ll end up with your head up your own ass like all of political media.
Anne Laurie
There will *always* be a name attached to any post — in the purported series, WaterGirl’s. I don’t think FYWP permits posts with no author.
WaterGirl
@Another Scott:
Interesting thought. Or perhaps static pages that could be linked in the sidebar.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@Lobo: Great. I’m particularly interested in helping immigrants with the bureaucracy of the immigration process. I understand any oversight can be immensely disruptive.
I’m curious about the most effective organizations helping people with this.
WaterGirl
@Kay: Made me laugh!
Lapassionara
@Sister Golden Bear: what I would like is to be a better ally. I need information to be able to do that. I am not asking you personally to educate me, but I would be interested in hearing the factual information that I can use when arguing with others.
smedley the uncertain
@Anne Laurie: I share your opinion. Discussions could easily go off the track when others are asked to gauge/analyze the subject.
frosty
@Chacal Charles Calthrop: I bought a seed feeder last week and the birds discovered it a couple of days ago. So did the squirrels because I didn’t pay the extra $60 for a squirrel proof one. So now I have to buy some of the hot pepper seed that the birds eat but the squirrels hate. Or maybe just mix in some of my son’s collection of hot sauces.
But it’s fun to watch a ton of birds swarming around!
Kay
@Sister Golden Bear:
Fuck off. I didn’t ‘chase off” anyone. I disagreed with the post. I’ll do it again too. I’m not gonna fucking apologize for being an outspoken woman. Anyone who has the keys is free to frontpage here and I’m free to disagree with them in the comments. That’s the deal.
Baud
Soprano2
I have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, I have learned a lot from people here posting things about their lives that are completely different than my life. On the other hand, I cannot ever completely know what it’s like to be black, gay, or trans in America. I joined a Facebook group for spouses of people who have dementia. Periodically others who are children or siblings of people with dementia try to join, and the reply from the mods is always the same – “This is a group for spouses of those with dementia. There are issues that do not come into play for others who have relatives with dementia. Only spouses are allowed to join this group, period.” It’s absolutely true that there are issues when your spouse has dementia that won’t come up with others; this group is a “safe space” for spouses to post about their issues and just vent when they need to. You can never completely understand this if you haven’t experienced it. People in this group sometimes say things that I’m sure would shock children or siblings of people with dementia; that’s why they can’t be in the group.
frosty
@frosty:
Since I’m OT all over the place does anyone else hear an echo from an old song in the phrase “Cold, very, very cold.”
Geminid
@WaterGirl: I sometimes think the most misunderstood people are Balloon Juice Front-Pagers. Maybe y’all should do a special post this December, for Festivus.
Eolirin
@Anne Laurie: I don’t have the energy to contribute anymore, but if this had been asked six months ago, I would have written a long piece on how little recognition or consideration exists towards the disability and mental health community. And how dangerous what the courts have been doing in chipping away at the ADA is. How much of a risk attacks on Medicaid and the ACA are. The consequences of a chronic lack of funding and why it’s not okay to pine for the days of widespread forced hospitalization.
But a large part of that would have been exactly how our struggles are fundamentally relegated to invisibility status because the mere act of being seen is so uncomfortable to everyone else that we learn to keep you all safe from it by denying and deflecting our lived experience.
So you’ll excuse me if I take a little bit of offense at someone, in good faith, offering specific space for that kind of conversation to happen being compared to a sideshow, of all things.
Even if I can kind of understand where you’re coming from, please understand that a core part of the problem with being a marginalized voice is that no one provides that space, and in those few instances where we can actually speak, it feels like no one actually listens because they’re too busy defending themselves, or are immediately running from the reality of our existence.
Which, look, I get. If most of us had the option to get away from the reality of our struggles we’d all fucking run for the exits too. Hell, a lot of substance abuse and suicide is us doing exactly that.
But shit like this is why we can’t ever talk about any of this.
@Miss Bianca: You aren’t wrong. But also all of the above still applies.
There’s no winning for any of us here.
frosty
@Sister Golden Bear: I see your posts and I get it.
Kay
@WaterGirl:
Ugh. It’s a politics site. There isn’t that much to analyze, thank God.
I always think one can talk about their issue or issues in the comments. It’s what I do. I’m often the only person bringing womens autonomy up- doesn’t bother me a bit.
I was regularly criticized as a front pager in the comments. Sometimes I thought it was unfair or unkind. I survived the onslaught of disagreement :)
scav
Jesus, based in the reactions in this post, I may re-evaluate posting under a dead-end nym. (actually not, snarling nest of usual but still. It was just a god damned suggestion.)
Kay
I think you do a great job WG so you should have a little leeway to run experiments. There’s no harm in it and anyone who doesn’t like ti can read something else.
BeautifulPlumage
I think of it like the recent Cole post about being taller than Joelle and seeing her place from his perspective and understanding “short people” perspectives/experiences.
Miss Bianca
@Eolirin: Your point is taken.
WaterGirl
@Kay: In case it wasn’t clear, I meant made me laugh in a good way. Because of the points you made and the way you made them. There was truth in what you said. I love that you’re direct and that you aren’t afraid to say what you think.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@Watergirl:
I’m sorry that this was the reception your post received. Allyship is complicated and sometimes well-meaning actions get complicated reactions from the affected groups and fellow allies alike.
My first impulse was that I liked what you did here but I’ve been posting frantically all morning and I didn’t want to center this on a “woe is me” for me personally.
I was happy to engage in other diversions this presented. I think we can still work together to put thread to a constructive place. I’ve seen good suggestions here
This, also, too.
Kay
@Geminid:
lol
cain
I don’t know how safe of a space this is for that. I think it might be better to get a collection of stories/blog posts from other corners of the internet that gives a reasonable idea of what each demographic goes through.
I suggest a ‘code of conduct’ on such posts so that there is a definite set of rules that we need to adhere to. :)
Chief Oshkosh
@frosty: I just mix my regular bird food with ground cayenne pepper that I buy from our local farmer’s market. Does the job, but wear disposable gloves when you do the mixing.
Eolirin
@Kay: You engaged in repeated bigotry until those of us your bigotry was directed at gave up on trying to have a conversation with you about it.
It had nothing to do with you being an outspoken woman, but specifically with you gatekeeping who gets to count as a woman. To trans people.
Completely proving the point that was being raised about how a bunch of otherwise progressive white women aren’t allies.
But I’m not willing to try to reengage. You have a lot of valuable insight on other topics, but I just can’t with you on this one.
Lobo
One last thought. Approach this with grace, humility and compassion. I am working on this and trying to be better every day. I know I may be dreamer. Can we dream of a better world for all us?
RevRick
The hard question raised by Dr. King is “how am I participating in injustice?” Instead of finger pointing or baptizing ourselves with claims of innocence, it begs for us to confess. Otherwise, we sink into a swamp of smug self-righteousness.
Kay
@Eolirin:
Yeah, Disagree. Here’s something for you to think about – I think eddie is a bad ally. To me.
I know that’s unimagineable to you, my perspective on people who write shitty stereotypical posts about “feminists”. Feminazis! Women are so catty and untrustworthy, am I right? And the comments! “yeah, women suck, and we’re all sorry”. Forget it if you think I’m doing that. No.
That none of you are capable of recognizing it is not upsetting to me- it’s amusing. Talk about fucking blinders. Don’t try to repackage Rush Limbaugh’s views as some advanaced level of “progressiveness”. It’s bullshit.
planet eddie
@Sister Golden Bear: exactly.
In regards to “I am X,” I tried that, and I personally decided to take a big step back after numerous female commenters willfully misunderstood pretty commonly used terminology to attack me, and some gleefully mocked me for being the victim of a hate crime. I took a bigger step back after that behavior was defended in an extremely exhausting video chat with WaterGirl. I took myself permanently off of any FP stuff after WaterGirl decided to create unnecessary public drama with Adam via the FP email thread about a month ago. I appreciate this blog, but posts like this make me cringe now given my experience. I don’t recommend anyone partake in that particular Sisyphean exercise.
This December a trans person I know in NH commit suicide after their neighbors murdered their cat and then hanged it on their porch with a transphobic sign. I’m also dealing with a “radical feminist” who is trying to take custody away from my partner, in no small part because she’s extremely transphobic.
Kay
@Eolirin:
I would have had EXACTLY the same response if any person had written a shitty, poorly informed and reductive post about feminism or feminists.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@Kay: I missed the conversation in question; but reading about it here, I have one question.
Are trans women women?
Kay
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation:
I don’t answer to you but yes, trans women are women.
But someone pissed off over a custody battle is not some reflection of society! Lots and lots of people are pissed off over custody battles. Custody battles are nasty. Extrapolating that into some half assed broad “reflection” on “radical feminists” where it’s demanded I just silently nod my head and agree (feminists suck! yeah!) – proper place as woman, don’t you know- is just nonsense.
Allyship is either reciprocal or I don’t offer. I know women are supposed to offer no matter what, but I don’t.
Miss Bianca
@RevRick: That sounds like a fruitful topic for discussion.
I dunno, sometimes I think bigotry is a knee-jerk thing – that all really meaningful social change has to be accompanied by a willingness of a sufficient number of the dominant culture to examine their belief systems and what passes for their “thoughts” on a particular subject and come to the realization that they may have been wrong.
Think about AIDS, and how so many people had to travel such a long way from “it’s an icky gay disease, why should I care about it?” to seeing pictures of Nice White (Het) People getting it because of a blood transfusion, or whatever, and having to readjust their thinking.
And then on the other end of the spectrum you had activists like ACT UP who went into peoples’ faces and basically demanded a change in attitude and policies. They were loud, they were theatrical, and they were *focused* – and so they were very, very effective.
And now I’m no longer sure what my point is except to say, “you need relatability for the dominant population and you need activism from the affected population and you have to be willing to change your mind about things and you need all of these things at the same time.”
JaySinWA
@MisterForkbeard: I saw a piece on PBS Newshour about a project asking people to talk through post cards about race, They ended up receiving most responses from white Americans. It gave the non-white authors a view into racial attitudes that they didn’t see in face to face encounters.
Here’s a link to the discussion
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/michele-norris-discusses-her-new-book-on-how-americans-see-race-and-identity
UncleEbeneezer
I’m very much in favor of a series like this, because honestly it was first-hand accounts from people in marginalized groups (in particular, ABL/Imani Gandy right here at BJ) that really helped inform me, and move my stances, outlook and priories towards trying to be a better ally. But it would only work if 1.) the poster’s really want to share their stories and, 2.) a serious effort is made to keep the comments section clean of ignorant fuckery, so we don’t end up with a disgusting display of toxic comments like we saw when ABL and more recently Planet_Eddie tried to speak their truths. As for the Victim Porn issue, I think that the person who chooses to write a post can do whatever they are comfortable with. It doesn’t have to be a post that is all doom and gloom. And just because some marginalized commenters don’t want to do the emotional labor of telling their story, doesn’t mean there aren’t others who would. No group is a monolith. So if a Black, (Cis) Woman, Transgender, Jewish, Palestinian, Muslim, Immigrant etc. commenter wants to give their perspective to help the rest of us better understand, I think that would be a great thing. But the big challenge is that the only way I’ve ever seen this work is in spaces where there’s a very strict moderation of the comments section. Spaces where just one or two shitty comments (even if you didn’t know any better) would get you permanently banned. And BJ has historically never been willing to go all-in like that, so I’m not sure if a series like this is even really possible here. And then there’s the problem of who has to do the moderation. People outside of the marginalized community, generally can’t be entrusted with that job, because we don’t see the ism/phobia as clearly and easily as the people in the marginalized groups do. So then those people end up having to do that work, which is unfair to them. It’s a Catch-22 that really sucks. And this is why I’m always so saddened by the lack of marginalized voices in mainstream spaces. Because their absence is always a result of the fact that we the White, the Cisgender, the Hetero, the Men etc., simply can’t be relied upon to avoid any discussion turning into a hot mess of fuckery. We can’t (or more accurately won’t) do the work to make real safe-spaces for marginalized voices. And it’s one of the reasons why I always encourage to go to marginalized spaces (ones that are okay with us joining them) and respectfully listening and learning. Because those are really the only places you get to hear their voices and where “shit gets real.”
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@Kay: Never meant to suggest you answer to me. Just curious what you had to say.
planet eddie
@Kay: we all know you are a TERF, and I’m glad to see you’re finally accepting it.
Me using the phrase “feminazis” is just something you made up. I was very very clear about what kind of woman I was referring to, and I sourced material as far back as the 1970s to support it. You willfully ignored it to act like a victim. Get a grip.
different-church-lady
@MisterForkbeard: I worked on a diversity video for [major corporate bank] a few years ago. About 20 people came in to tell stories. They, of course, included one white guy. And he had no idea what to say. Like, they’d start with, “How do you identify?” and he was just stumped by the very nature of the question. And I realized, “You want a white straight male to understand what it’s like to feel ‘other’? Just drop him in the middle of a diversity video!”
Kay
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation:
Oh, bullshit, it was a challenge. I don’t care that you did it, I have a thick skin, but let’s not kid one another. Challenge accepted! But just once. I don’t, in fact, answer to you.
different-church-lady
Welp, looks like this is going just about as well as we feared…
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
Allyship is a community-based project. Individual grievances ought not to matter.
@Kay: Ok, valid.
Delk
I’d tell you all about what it is like being in a same sex marriage but unfortunately I’m too exhausted destroying traditional marriage.
planet eddie
@different-church-lady: whew. And I’m out again.
Bupalos
I’d love to read and learn from such a series. It’s pretty clear there are thorns and complications here, that in a way parrallel the difficulties of coalitional politics that we navigate as dems. I’m pretty much always for risking the existing peace in favor of finding a deeper, more durable, and more just one. But I think it would take some very sensitive and skilled handling for it not to devolve. “I understand what it’s like for you, but you don’t understand what it’s like for me” is one of the most natural human feelings, and when it gets paired with deep identity and questions of historical and ongoing injustice…that can can go toxic quickly.
different-church-lady
@Delk:
Y’know, people are pretty good at destroying their own marriages, so maybe you’ve been trying too hard.
Frankensteinbeck
@Baud:
Behavioral evolution is a science that has advanced rapidly over the last couple of decades just because there’s so much to correct. Everything we know came from a good hundred fifty years or more of male scientists assuming that how they imagined the dynamic of the sexes must be natural law. It turns out, no. All those rules were wrong, and now there’s a lot of research room to correct them.
different-church-lady
I mean… how the fuck did we make the last thread worse?
Kay
@planet eddie:
Thanks for the allyship, eddie. I recognize it goes only one way with you. That’s from my lived experience. Plenty of women are anti women. It’s not at all uncommon. Fucked up, IMO, but not uncommon.
Because you’re in a dispute with someone – the individual feminists in your life you object to- is not key to a broad societal truth. Just talk about your custody battle without dragging feminism into it. I’m a lawyer. I know those are hellish for just about everyone who ends up in one. My sympathies. Not the fault of feminists though.
Jackie
TIFG Veepstakes grew: Tim Scott is endorsing the Conman.
Who gets to tell Scott it’s never gonna happen for reasons we’re all familiar with?
Also, second rule to qualify in TIFG’s mind: Absolute Loyalty – which Tim screwed up by daring to run against The Anointed One.
Tony Jay
@Delk:
That was you?
UncleEbeneezer
@different-church-lady: Surprise, surprise :(
Miss Bianca
@different-church-lady:
This is Balloon Juice! We try harder!
Delk
@Tony Jay: only Monday to Friday— I control the weather on the weekends.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@Miss Bianca: There’s still a lot of room for this to go downhill. I’m not angry and I’m sure some of us remember how that goes.
Kay
@planet eddie:
The feminists in your recovery group and the feminist who is your partners former partner. Did I miss any bad feminists we’ve discussed? Is anyone bad other than feminists or do we (feminists) cause most of the problems in the world? Forgive me, I just think extrapolting from what sounds like a total of 4 women you dislike and are engaged in some kind of dispute with to “feminists” is a reach.
planet eddie
@Kay: I will continue to state that I am pointing out that these women aren’t feminists. They claim the mantle as cover for bad behavior.
I just think you don’t want to believe that I actually agree with you. Why is that? I imagine you’re just as frustrated with women who misuse the term feminism to justify being shitty to other marginalized groups.
The whole point of WG’s post was to be personal, so I posted about the transphobia I am currently experiencing, which include the murder of cat leading to a trans person’s suicide, and the harassment of someone who is active in “radfem” groups online who are actively transphobic as a group.
I regret wading back in. This was why I told Cole and WG that I would only come back if Kay either had a conversation with me or was banned.
WaterGirl
@planet eddie:
What I said then, and what I will repeat now, is that I think you and Kay were working with different meanings for the same words and that each of you felt attacked and dismissed and not listened to or understood by the other one.
scav
@Delk: I do so hate over-achievers!! I wanted to weaken the institution as well! All that was left was to manufacture some very disappointing showers and stag nights.
WaterGirl
@Delk: LOL. Literally!
Tony Jay
@Delk:
That was you too?
Oh have I got an uncomfortable conversation coming up with the local wise woman.
UncleEbeneezer
@Miss Bianca: Both threads are picture perfect examples of the never-ending problem of White Feminist™ gatekeeping.
Kay
@planet eddie:
I told you I won’t comment on your posts and I meant it. I’m not in charge of the feminists though. No telling what another one of them might say. They’re mouthy, as a rule.
Martin
So, I don’t have any skin in this game – I’m about as non-marginalized as a person could be. But I think it might be more beneficial to link to existing content that is disconnected from the community, because I agree that we are not always good at protecting our community here, mainly because, IMO, we are much more focused on trying to be heard than listening.
WaterGirl
@Tony Jay: Appreciating the several comments that are making me laugh.
MisterForkbeard
@WaterGirl: I’ll get back to you guys after the next six times I’m interviewed by the NYT in a diner.
Baud
@different-church-lady:
I’m not nominating this. Too easy.
MisterForkbeard
Kay is not a TERF. Eddie isn’t Limbaugh. I know we’re upset about this shit (it’s upsetting!) , but no bueno.
Everyone needs to calm the fuck down, we’re 95% on the same page here.
planet eddie
@WaterGirl: which I agreed with, and I asked you as a fellow FPer to do some light research and allyship given your positional power on the blog. We talked for almost three hours, and I never once disagreed with that point. There was a lot more to that conversation.
Ruckus
@Miss Bianca:
I’m not oppressed. I’m just an old, white, male who wonders the same thing as you. We have histories of large groups of people oppressed. Many, many histories. And the list of groups one might get often depends on which group the complainer belongs to. And it can be a very large group, say anyone of the female side of the aisle. Or, or, or, the lists can go on for all of time, past, present, future. Someone is likely to always be higher up some scale. More money, less skin coloration, a particular heritage/gender/sexual orientation and on and on. Some people seem to have to have a higher plateau they have to be a part of or their life is horrible. Some have to have large groups they can look down upon, often for the most asinine reasons and all of this because they can’t seem to exist without being higher up some ladder of standing. They can’t just be one human, they have to be in competition for something more than air to breathe and food to eat. There are something like 7 billion+ of us on this planet, maybe we could find a way to feed us, house us and not have to kill off others for asinine reasons.
Baud
@planet eddie: Hi eddie. It’s nice to see you again, although I wish the circumstances were different.
Tony Jay
Okay, I think I have an answer to this Back And Forth Bombardment Sinks All Ships issue.
Every comment has to end with one of three statements.
1) Ron DeSantis is a (fill in the blank) who can shove his (fill in the blank) up his (fill in the blank) until it comes out of his (fill in the blank).
2) I was walking along the beach in Brazil when I looked over my shoulder and saw Glenn Greenwald being (fill in the blank) by a (fill in the blank) with a (fill in the blank) until he started to (fill in the blank).
3) When Donald Trump dissolves into the constituent greases from which he was originally formed, I intend to (fill in the blank) on his grave and (fill in the blank) with a (fill in the blank) to the approval of all the watching (fill in the blank).
All the good feeling thus generated should buffer any responsive insta-venom and result in a much more pleasant exchange of opinions for all concerned. And if it doesn’t work, well, we’ll still have some happy memories.
FelonyGovt
WaterGirl puts in countless hours on this blog for which she gets no pay and a certain amount of grief. That’s in addition to her own work that earns her a living. Whether or not her suggestion is advisable in your opinion, let’s all please remember that.
different-church-lady
@Tony Jay: If this is not accompanied by the funk music from Match Game, then screw it.
Kay
@MisterForkbeard:
Yeah, I’m sorry, but the women piling on “feminists” reminds me of the 1980’s and 1990’s when it was fashionable for certain women to brag about how much women suck and they prefer men. There were always women who jumped onboard there too. Gross.
trollhattan
@MisterForkbeard: Yup. Judges would also have accepted:
https://youtu.be/aLUOTeJOEdc?si=tiS23NKYLNC0VfjV
Manyakitty
@Sister Golden Bear: I am pretty sure you also posted about your transition experience here, right? What an amazing journey 🍾
I’m sorry the world is so shitty right now. Why can’t people see that not everything has to be for them? It’s possible to see another human making personal decisions and just keep going. (Vast oversimplification, I know).
Anyway.
different-church-lady
@FelonyGovt:
Amen.
MisterForkbeard
@different-church-lady: You’re not wrong! I hired a majority-female, majority-minority engineering team. I get asked to show up to these trainings and sometimes to represent them (with women’s groups), and I’m decent but not great at it.
But there’s always some guy there who has no idea. And the first few times I did it I made some dumb mistakes that I owned up on immediately.
But holy shit, even taking the DEI classes is eye-opening. Other white guys will say things like “This is really interesting – I had no idea that women get asked to pick up coffee all the time” or “Oh, that’s why the girls won’t go to happy hours” and my personal favorite “yeah, but a woman’s pregnancy is really hard on my scheduling so I still don’t want to hire women”. And the other white dudes expect you to agree enthusiastically. It’s another fucking world.
Bupalos
I agree the suggestion that the series be comprised of outside sources. I think that would potentially help lower the temperature.
MisterForkbeard
@Baud: I second this. It’s good to see Eddie again.
dexwood
@Miss Bianca:
Balloonjuice, where there is always someone who will say you’re doing it wrong.
Baud
@MisterForkbeard:
I didn’t know I could do that.
Tony Jay
@Martin:
I’ll marginalise you, if you like. Just a bit of light Othering, nothing too ostracising. Is an hour on Thursdays and longer sessions every third Sunday okay for you?
Competitive rates!
(Also, too, your suggestion is a good one. Must be, since it occurred to me as well.)
Baud
@dexwood: Especially when it comes to grammar.
Betty
@Jackie: Yes, but he just voted against the Continuing Resolution. Does that count as loyalty?
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@dexwood: It’s the internet. What did you expect?
MisterForkbeard
@Kay: I have a real problem with people attacking feminists too. I do make an exception for TERFs, since exclusionary radical feminists don’t really seem like feminists to me, just assholes. And 99% of the time I hear someone complaining about feminists, they’re just being misogynist assholes too.
I entirely get why everyone is angry as hell, but goddamn.
But sorry, I get that you probably don’t appreciate me butting in :/
Manyakitty
@Geminid: some good points here. Outside of the random troll, etc., we’re all here with the expectation that we align on most of the Big Ideas. It’s fascinating to see which blind spots pop up and where.
MisterForkbeard
@Baud: You can certainly try.
@Betty: Scott ran, said almost nothing negative about Trump, and dropped out early. Trump probably doesn’t have a big problem with him, especially how he toes the line with everything else. Including the CR.
eclare
@Anne Laurie:
I am with you on this after that thread the other day which started off with a great post and then devolved quickly into a competition. There is way more downside than upside with this.
Manyakitty
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation: that is a great idea. I’m also interested.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@MisterForkbeard: I love getting asked to pick up coffee. Gets me put of the pharmacy for a few. And my bosses are all women. Feminism in action.
dexwood
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation: Internet behavior, of course.
zhena gogolia
@WaterGirl: I’m a little worried that I haven’t seen Alison Rose since that thread. I think it’s hard to be nuanced and sensitive on a blog, so I guess I’d vote against this.
Sister Golden Bear
@WaterGirl:
I understand you didn’t. And honestly it doesn’t matter whether my nym is attached or not.
It’s more a general exhaustion with repeatedly having to show my wounds (here and elsewhere) — even if I’m doing so voluntarily — to convey the enormity of what’s going on. Because if I don’t, who will. Because I feel an obligation to visible up for those who can’t. Because I need to fight against those who want to eradicate us.
@MisterForkbeard: Amen.
@planet eddie: Good to see you here. I miss your insights.
WaterGirl
@Tony Jay: Great idea! But what about the lazy people will simply copy and paste their favorite choice, over and over, onto the end of their latest comments?
Manyakitty
@Soprano2: “There can only ever be 4 Beatles.”
It makes perfect sense.
Kay
@MisterForkbeard:
You can write any shitty, reductive thing you want about feminists as long as you append “radical” in front of it.
Sorry. I think it’s bullshit. And the idea that I’m going to do some kind of groveling “apology for feminists” in the comments because eddie dislikes some of them in their life? Never.
eddie thinks I’m a bad ally. The feeling is mutual. Reciprocal.
different-church-lady
@Tony Jay: All the best doms have British accents.
Sister Golden Bear
@Manyakitty: Yes, I did. Thank you.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@different-church-lady: I’ve been surveying pornhub and it turns out a disproportionately large percentage of doms have British accents. Must be something in the national character.
Glad at least those on pornhub are putting it to good use.
Tony Jay
@WaterGirl:
Yaz welcome.
One day we’ll all be tucked up in our Venusian cloud-pods as snuggly as bunnie wabbits and as in tune as the Beach Boys, but until that far off bio-gengineered day, we’re all just stuck with being a bunch of snarling monkeybrains who typically do not respond too well to being told we’re doing this good thing we’re so proud of RONG!
It’s not your problem, Mom. Have another glass of wine and turn on some Motown. All will be well when the walls are hosed down.
different-church-lady
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation:
Ah, your grant money finally came through!
Tony Jay
@different-church-lady:
You had me at Funk. Bring it!
MisterForkbeard
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation: I offer my (female) boss to get coffee or snacks for her when she looks really busy. I frame it as “I’m heading to the coffee shop, can I get you anything?”
Gets me out of the office for 20 minutes, gives me a chance to talk to her, and to be honest small favors don’t hurt you.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
If only. This is purely a passion project.
Martin
@Tony Jay: I’d appreciate that. I’m an atheist in America which is about as much of an opening as I think I can give you. At the same time, as an American, I’m pretty sure I’ve got the high ground on this one.
eclare
@different-church-lady:
How is your mouth doing? Better I hope.
schrodingers_cat
This is not a good idea on many levels. Even though we post under psuedonyms it would not be too hard for someone to trace us down. Asking members of vulnerable populations to expose themselves in a public forum for the educational purposes of the privileged is a potentially dangerous exercise.
WaterGirl
@Sister Golden Bear: I heard a couple of people, Alison Rose being one of them, essentially saying “you guys just don’t get it, you don’t know how it sounds/feels to us when we say Jewish and you response with Palestinians.”
(incredibly shorthand version)
So I thought, well, maybe some BJ peeps would like us to know how that feels to them, so we don’t inadvertently kick another BJ peep in the teeth.
So I tossed out the question, and I got lots of input. Some of it was even constructive! The rest I ignore.
MisterForkbeard
@Kay: Sure. That’s valid.
Just noting that I personally don’t think TERFs (self-described ones especially) fit with my model of what a feminist is, especially given who they tend to ally with.
Like anyone, taking arguments one at a time is the technically correct and also totally fucking exhausting approach >_<
Boy, did you ever.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@MisterForkbeard: That is kind of you and probably accrues no small share of brownie points.
I’m lucky. In the pharnacy we all work directly together and are usually of the same mind when we want a treat.
Manyakitty
@Miss Bianca: definitely something we can solve on this here blog 😄😁
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@schrodingers_cat: Some more pseudonymous than others.
different-church-lady
@eclare: Much better, thanks, but progress is still annoyingly slow.
The winner of the “first solid food” contest: baked white fish. Still can’t do anything that involves serious biting, but at least it doesn’t have to be pudding consistency anymore.
Tony Jay
@WaterGirl:
By their works ye shall know them.
@different-church-lady:
That’s because Hollywood makes us play all the Bad Boys In Black Uniform roles and, yes, that does make us (sound) hot enough to burn chilli.
I have it on good authority, though, that all of those doms are actually Canadian or Scots with a complex.
MisterForkbeard
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation: I used to just bring in chocolate truffles for the office every once in a while. Kept a big box of them on my desk, anyone can have one if they need a pick me up. Would drop a couple off at someone else’s desk if they were having a hard time
It’s amazing what small things like that earn you – though probably only if you’re not obviously doing it to earn brownie points. People recognize goodness, and I have people I met that way a decade ago who still check in on me every once in a while, or who have given unsolicited support on job transfers, project requests and so on.
It’s weird, given how awful a lot of the world is but good people often look out for other good people. It’s a great feedback mechanism.
Sister Golden Bear
@WaterGirl: I realize it your offer was made with good intentions. I’m not yelling at you for it.
Nelle
@Chacal Charles Calthrop: i can’t get my back door open (snow drifts) more than enough to throw out seeds. Then another round of snow covers it up. Great entertainment for the young grandson.
Manyakitty
@different-church-lady: lol. There’s definitely meat in here, too. But, oy.
bluefoot
My first reaction is like Sister Golden Bear’s. My second is maybe posts could be less “what it’s like to be _____ right now” and more “from my perspective, this is what people like me could use right now” or “people in my _____ community could use help with _____ right now.” That is, identify some gaps where allies can help, or help find resources (like, I don’t know, legal aid groups in city x for immigrants). Jackals are inclined to action, like we’ve done with postcard writing, Four Directions, etc. And everyone here has a wealth of experience and knowledge. Even small things can make a difference. Hell, sometimes just listening makes a huge difference.
PaulB
@Kay: You wrote:
Wow…. Just, wow…. This is both offensive and delusional. Your description of what took place bears absolutely no resemblance to the reality of those threads that you participated in and derailed.
You took everything personally and, in fact, continued to re-litigate your offenses in multiple threads thereafter, refusing to accept that you might, just possibly, have had an inappropriate knee-jerk response. And you were, and are, so thin-skinned and self-deluded that you simply cannot let it go.
WG, I’m not in favor of what you are proposing, precisely because of people like Kay and because of the shit-show that will likely result, as we’re seeing in this thread. And yes, I know full well that I’m contributing to it, but I cannot let such lies go unanswered. I will, however, refrain from further replies when Kay responds to this post, as I’m quite confident she will.
What I would suggest instead is what has been proposed above: a post or series of posts about “How can I be a better ally?” Have people list the websites and organizations worth paying attention to, how to respond to the casual bigotry and misinformation we hear from friends, relatives, colleagues, and neighbors, which organizations can use additional funding, and so on. That approach would, I think, be more likely to generate light than heat, whereas what you propose is far more likely to yield the reverse.
eclare
@Sister Golden Bear:
I learned a lot from your posts about transitioning, they were very informative. Thank you for doing that and keeping us informed about all of the hateful legislation designed to erase you.
Manyakitty
@WaterGirl: I call those parallel conversations and they cause more fights than just about anything else, at least for me.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@MisterForkbeard: Sharing food is one of life’s great pleasures. I only cook if I can share
And this gets to the most constructive repeat suggestion of this thread. Learning how to better support one another.
eclare
@Tony Jay:
We want the funk, gotta have that funk…
planet eddie
@Kay: There is a difference between someone being a woman and someone being a feminist. Same goes for trans folks. There are also many divergences among feminists. As I’ve stated in the past, I’m a feminist, and I’m active in feminist causes because feminist issues are trans issues. I also have a masters from Brown University where my focus was on intersectional queer and gender studies, so no I’m not just pulling things out of my personal life.
In regards to “reactionary feminism” and the modern “radfem” movement (AKA TERFs by another name), they are both extremist feminist ideologies that exclude trans people on opposite sides of the spectrum which are both premised in biological essentialism — that what’s going on downstairs is all that matters.
All of this is very easy to google.
Regardless, there is NO justification for the vitriol and hate you have towards me. I have tried to explain myself and my position repeatedly, and you persist in this bizarre victim complex where you are just making up things I supposedly said.
I dont think BJ is a safe place for trans people until the cisgender FPers — both male and female — step up and educate themselves on the complex issues that face trans folks in this country, and how different factions try to create a wedge between women’s issues and trans issues when they are inextricable. That’s what allyship is.
Sister Golden Bear
In happier news, Maine could be the 15th state to pass a trans refuge law. I invite you to consider why they feel need to consider this law, and how it feels to be a member of a targeted group that needs such such laws.
Baud
@Sister Golden Bear:
I assume that should be “refuge,” unless there’s something unique about your garbage.
ETA: Fixed.
eclare
@MisterForkbeard:
I work temp contracts, and on my first day I bring in a dish of candy, and I keep it refilled. It’s a great way to get to know people. Candy is a small gesture but always appreciated.
Luckily I do not have a sweet tooth so having this on my desk is not a problem. If it were cashews, I would hoover them up in minutes.
Sister Golden Bear
Also too, if you want to take an action to help out trans people in a concrete way, here’s a list of trans Girl Scouts that you can order cookies from.
Tony Jay
@Martin:
That’s a damned funny way to spell Canadian. Must be all that lack of faith in a Just and Loving God messing with your keyboard.
That’ll be $10, please. No bitcoin, I’m trying not cut down on being a dick.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@Sister Golden Bear: It’s sad that such measures would be necessary, but here we are. States having to defend the human rights of Americans from other states just screams for a federal solution. We need our House back.
Sister Golden Bear
@Baud: Out of coffee error. Fixed now.
West of the Rockies
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation:
People will cum, Ray. People will most definitely cum…
wenchacha
@MisterForkbeard: This thread is making me sad. You’re probably right, that “we” likely agree on 95% of the issues, and we get stuck on nomenclature.
I don’t see any solutions, and it feels as though that damn 5% gets stronger all the time.
And “we” still have to deal with terrible people who disagree with us about 95% of the time.
I appreciate your optimism; that you see the glass mostly filled. I wish I could.
Kay
@PaulB:
I didn’t bring it up in this thread.
I told eddie I wouldn’t comment in their posts. You’ll have to accept compromise that since I don’t think Balloon Juice bans for dissenting. They are assured of lockstep, enthusiastic agreement with no pesky backtalk. I know it’s my proper female role to be warm and supportive and encouraging whether that is reciprocated or not. I’m just a little surprised this scolding is coming from “progressives” but I’m really familiar with it.
UncleEbeneezer
@MisterForkbeard: Nah. She’s doing exactly what planet eddie wrote about in the earlier post. A behavior that is very common among Cisgender Feminists and is super-problematic. So much so, that eddie felt the need to explain it to this community in a detailed and lengthy post, even knowing damn well the defensive/fragility and weaponized-Feminist responses that would likely result. Think about that. eddie could rightfully expect a bunch of bullshit responses, but the problem is so common and so bad that eddie still felt the need to write that post! And it wasn’t just eddie that pointed out the problem. Several other Trans/NB and Queer commenters chimed in as well co-signing the post, pointing out how common this shit is for their community and pushing back at the shitty responses. This should speak volumes to all of our Cisgender ears.
I’m Cisgender but I follow a bunch of Trans/NB people, listen to Trans podcasts, read Trans authors etc., and in my experience, this sort of behavior would get a person immediately bounced from any Trans-focussed or even just Trans-Inclusive space, and rightfully so. They are tired of this sort of casually-Transphobic bullshit. And many of us who support, love and try to stand with them, are tired of it too. The fact that several Trans/NB people have spoken up to explain that this is why they don’t feel safe/welcome here, really says it all. They told us why, in very clear words. It’s not complicated. And all the supporting evidence is right here in these two posts. It doesn’t take some advanced degree in Gender Theory to see it.
Tony Jay
@eclare:
…gotta get that funk, swingin’ like my junk…
Oh, wait, no. No! Very no!
UncleEbeneezer
@planet eddie:
THIS PART^^^
PS- sorry for the bullshit you’re dealing with here, in your personal life and the world in general. Virtual hug, high-five etc., to you and thanks for chiming in.
Mousebumples
Late to the thread/drive by posting thought – would a short term action series* (*depending on need, opportunity, etc., and not actually a series, lol) be more useful?
Juicers who live in #STATE should (call, attend rally, etc.) on Topic X because…
Postcard campaign for #ABC is ongoing here. This election will….
I enjoy learning things and reading new perspectives. I would hope it someone wants to share a perspective, FPers would be open to that, but I don’t think that (or my idea even) needs to be a Series of Posts.
I really like having tangible, small steps I can take to help. There’s so much that’s in need of fixing and help that I find myself subject to paralysis by analysis sometimes.
And I mostly know what I see and hear about locally – eg the postcarding threads for WI SC race last year.
Kay
@planet eddie:
Another patronizing lecture on feminism. Unbelievable.
Listen- godspeed to you. I give up. I don’t think you’re a good ally to me but it doesn’t matter- you’re only one person and I just finished helping with the abortion campaign in Ohio- I have plenty of allies. Butjust don’t use me for why you “can’t” post here. Post whatever you want. As I said I won’t comment on your posts. I don’t comment on a lot of posts – the majority, really. It’s not a big deal.
Sister Golden Bear
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation:
It does indeed. Unfortunately the flip side is that may be all too easy for Republicans to legalize trans discrimination across the country, even without hitting the trifecta in the next election.
Look at how they judge shop to get things in front of the reactionary zealot who’s made anti-abortion and anti-contraception rulings that were imposed nationally, and upheld by the Fifth Circuit court. Yes, they’re being appealed, but with the current SCOTUS, it’s entirely possible that Sinister Six uphold it directly, or refuse to hear appeals, which effective achieves the same goal.
The Republicans are following the exact same playbook with anti-trans laws that they did with anti-abortion laws.
Soprano2
@different-church-lady: Or send him to a place like Japan, where I understand people used to cross the street to avoid white people.
Dangerman
His grave had best be at sea; there are potential flooding risks involved otherwise.
Alternatively, tickets could be sold; piss on Trump’s grave for charity, $50. Some sort of system would have to be set up, however; can you imagine preparing for an appropriate piss and have to stand in a long line?
Kay
@UncleEbeneezer:
I just love how you feel perfectly comfortable lecturing cisgender feminists but would lecture no one else in this way. I wonder why that is. Hmmm.
Miss Bianca
@dexwood: “Welcome to Balloon Juice – we’ll gore *anybody’s* ox!”
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@Miss Bianca: Balloon Juice is not a space for the linguistcally delicate.
Kay
@UncleEbeneezer:
Fucking hilarious to me that none of you see this. Kee-rist.
I knew the “let’s lecture Kay on proper feminist behavior” would come and you didn’t disappoint!
I don’t accept the box you put me in. Just so we’re clear.
MisterForkbeard
@UncleEbeneezer: I’m awful in that I think everyone here has a point. Though I haven’t read the previous thread.
Kay is right that women and/or feminists get labelled, saddled with a ton of expectations, and lumped in with a lot of other groups. Even if she’s not right in this particular instance (and could be right), she’s right that this happens a ton and it’s immensely exhausting to deal with this all the time.
Eddie’s also right that trans folk have other unique needs and that allyship is hard – and that the people they’d expect to be allies aren’t always.
I’m being stupidly reductive with all the above. But I think they’re both sorta right and aiming at the wrong targets.
EDIT: Eddie wrote the post and some people agreed with it because it has good points. You’re right that we should note that eddie wrote it in a particular way felt the need to do that almost protectively and that should inform the conversation. I think Kay is generally one of the more insightful people here, but we should also keep in mind that her viewpoint on this is really useful as well and she also has a reason to dislike terminology, certain kinds of allyship, and certain kinds of call-outs. Women (and especially feminists) aren’t exactly a majority and privileged group either, you know?
I’m just gonna shut up now.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@Kay: I hate when I miss the last episode of Baddies and they’re fighting about the fight about the fight, but I don’t know what the original fight was about.
RevRick
@MisterForkbeard: Vibes are coming out of the Trump camp that they’re looking intently at Elise Stefanik. She loudly brays the MAGA line and is quite amoral, willing to junk whatever she said before to please the crowd.
Kay
@UncleEbeneezer:
A behavior that is very common among men tendentiously lecturing women on proper “behavior”
I love how you don’t even address it to me- you’re hoping for a consensus on just what to do with me? Is that it? Are you my supervisor?
Captain C
@Dangerman: Given the impending phosphorus (for fertilizing) shortage I hear about, perhaps we can set up a combined grave-pissing/collection site wherever TFG is interred. Any revenue generated could go to paying off his various business and rape lawsuits. I’m thinking on a custom-built pitch-and-putt somewhere in the industrial areas of Bayonne, NJ or Queens or suchlike.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@Captain C: Good idea. How about we cremate him and make the ashes into urinal cakes to be used at Grand Central Station?
MisterForkbeard
@RevRick: I wouldn’t be surprised. She’s got the benefit of being completely amoral, as you said. She’s also got the benefit of explicitly having tossed her entire previous identity and political stances to become a Trump acolyte, and being very open about it.
She’d make a great pick for Trump, in some ways. And you know she’d take everything negative he’d do with women and be perfectly supportive and enthusiastic, just like Kari Lake.
mrmoshpotato
@Anne Laurie:
Completely agree. If people want to share their hardships in the comments, they’re free to share. But post requests doesn’t feel right. Even though we know your intentions are good, WaterGirl.
eclare
@Tony Jay:
Hahaha…too early for Balloon Juice After Dark on this side of the pond.
Tony Jay
@Dangerman:
Put the Very Popular Vote Loser Mausoleum in the middle of a flood plain, line the queuing routes with connected metal troughs/crouching pans wending all the way down to the gravesite and let gravity do its magic.
Dangerman
Damn. Those words just gave me a tingle.
Sadly, Trump is gonna have to get the Lenin treatment; Trumpers won’t believe he is dead.
Captain C
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation: Works for me. Maybe with a cameo of his face pressed on in the manufacturing process.
mrmoshpotato
@Captain C:
Giving the orange shitstain money – even after death? No!
Though I’m all for a different collection at his grave – pudding of piss collecting.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@Captain C: We’ll have to market test it. Some may find it satisfying, but I worry about shy pee-ers
different-church-lady
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation:
I’d be more worried about Trump’s ghost finding it satisfying.
Tony Jay
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation:
Pee-by-Mail?
Old School
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation:
If you really want to do the homework, start here, scroll down to April 6th, and move forward.
mrmoshpotato
@Tony Jay: Oh, I’ll piss on Dump’s grave loooooong before he putrid body (even in life) dissolves into the constituent greases from which he was originally formed!
And that’s a horrible, reprehensible thing to say about grease!
Bill Arnold
@RevRick:
Yeah, she’s loathsome and merits a full and well-maintained oppo dossier.
Sister Golden Bear
Wanna know why I’m scared, we’re at the point where multiple states are unsafe for me to visit, because I can potentially be arrested for who I am. And it’s getting worse.
Utah Advances Criminal Trans Bathroom Ban, With Penalties Of Six Months In Jail
The bill — one of the most extreme anti-transgender bills in the United States — mirrors Florida’s trans bathroom ban law, and would also end all legal recognition for transgender people.
Erin in the Morning has done heroic — an emotionally traumatic — work covering the Republican attempts to legislate trans people out exist. Another concrete bit of ally-ship you can do is subscribe and support her SubStack.
Betty Cracker
@MisterForkbeard: No need to shut up — FWIW, I think you’re making more sense than most! ;-)
mrmoshpotato
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation: No need for freshness. Bring a jar – old peanut butter jar, old pasta sauce jar, massive Target jar that they sell their bar mix peanuts, etc in, OIL DRUM!
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@Old School: Thank you
This sounds like the appropriate urine delivery vehicle for a live Trump.
Sister Golden Bear
@RevRick: And Stefanik is less likely to pose any threat of upstaging/outshining Trump — which MTG, Ramaswamy, and others failed to understand. Only Trump can be in the spotlight.
Captain C
@mrmoshpotato: Nah, no money for him. Any money gained from selling the phosphorus or other urine products goes to his many victims. Other than Mary, no TFG family members will be allowed near this cash flow.
Captain C
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation: Yeah, we may want to have some plain versions for such people.
Bill Arnold
@Tony Jay:
Would need a proper earthen lagoon berm.
Lyrebird
@Anne Laurie: I also vote nay, though I’m not sure it’s for exactly the same reasons… I am just going based on what I’ve seen a couple times here.
I don’t remember the name of the trans person who was posting here, and at least comment thread did end up being all about gee, let’s dispute this person’s identity or something, just kinda WRONG. And I feel like having that kind of guest post would very easily lead to the same sort of pillory-style experience, that’s awful.
Given what some recent threads have been like, I am just gonna drop this and run away, but I wanted to vote. I wish I could send a hug (only if acceptable to them) to the poster whose nym I can’t remember and to Angry Black Lady.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@Captain C: My concern with shy pee-ers made me aware of another flaw in my plan. Women won’t have a shot at him. Unforgiveable. Back to the drawing board.
Soprano2
@Kay: My mother was one of those people. She complained a lot that other women weren’t that smart, I guess because they didn’t vote for Republicans. I was always too scared to ask her if she thought that meant I and my sister were dumb.
Sister Golden Bear
@eclare: Thank you. Knowing that people are learning from them are why I do them.
cain
@dexwood:
lol -you should try open source communities. Although all of them have to deal with men doing ‘well, actually..’
Bill Arnold
@cain:
Yeah. I vaguely recall a study that strongly suggested that open source contributors with female gender hints in their name/nym were given a lot more trouble in code reviews etc. Conclusion, that women should use gender-neutral pseudonyms when contributing to open source projects.
Soprano2
@Kay: Well, that stood out to me as well.
PaulB
@Kay: (Okay, just one more. Sorry, but this is unmitigated bullshit.)
In fact, you did, by loudly proclaiming your innocence and attacking when nobody had even mentioned you.
And, once again, this is offensive, ridiculous, and delusional, bearing no resemblance to literally *anything* that anyone here has said, ever. Your delusions and your assumption of victimhood, when no such assumption is even remotely warranted, are duly noted.
I will end by noting that, once again, you have derailed a thread with your grievances, your misinformation, your attempts to re-litigate (and lie about) prior interactions, and your knee-jerk responses. Congratulations!
cain
@Bill Arnold:
That would not surprise me in the least. It’s why we have a code of conduct.
Open source communities also have a greater share of transgendered contributors – a lot of former men are transitioning.
One of the more interesting anecdotes is the fact when trying to make a safe space for women – non-transitioned men would get very upset. At first glance, it seemed like misogyny but in fact it was a cry for help – these non-transitioned folks wanted to be part of women only events because internally they were grappling with their gender identity as different from their birth gender.
So in one way creating a safe space for women needed to be a lot more nuanced.
My wife hated the women only events at open source conferences – many other women did as well.
Kay
@Soprano2:
It stood out to you because it’s sexist as hell and ONLY cisgender women would be addressed like this, as a group, scolded for our “behavior”.
I guarantee you’re not the only one who sees it.
Kay
@PaulB:
“My grievances”. Hey thanks for that “allyship” Paul. Maybe other women will take you upon it – not me though- I insist on reciprocity. I’m not a fucking doormat.
Another Scott
@Kay: This isn’t a good look from you, Kay. Not at all.
SGB didn’t mention you.
She said, “some here helped run off a trans/non-binary front pager” and that’s undoubtedly true. PE hasn’t posted here much since then.
It’s fine to have strong opinions, but jumping in with a “Fuck off” puts everyone on edge, hijacks the topic, and turns the thread into something ugly.
You have strong opinions about things, and generally express yourself well, but at times you brook no dissent (I remember the long threads about TPP and your strongly held views about it and I felt like I had to tread gently if I disagreed and wanted to say anything). SGB’s comment wasn’t about you – it was about how difficult it is to have posts and comments about marginalized people’s experiences.
We don’t have to agree. We can disagree. We’re not all the same and we should understand that people posting here generally aren’t trying to rile up others. Maybe we can let people state their opinion even if we disagree, even if we think they picked the wrong words, even if their choice of words bothers or hurts us. Maybe they can speak their truth even if we don’t like it.
My impressions. Could be wrong. I’m not interested in arguing about it.
I hope this thread ends soon.
Sorry, WaterGirl.
Peace, everyone.
Cheers,
Scott.
planet eddie
@MisterForkbeard: Allyship partially means being uncomfortable with your preconceived notions being challenged. If someone stops being someone’s ally because they don’t phrase things exactly the way they want them to, can they be counted on to step up for the really uncomfortable conversations that are needed to make change?
Trans issues are women’s issues. Why? Because trans folks deal with all of the same misogyny that women do in different flavors. Trans women are often denied their womanhood in their personal and professional lives, as well as by the state (depending on the state), and even a fully passing trans man needs access to gynecological car, birth control, or even abortion access. I honestly don’t know a single trans person who doesn’t identify as a feminist, and it’s painful to be rejected by those we expected to stand by our sides.
I have no issues with women or feminists, but right now there is a vast movement by the right to create a wedge between trans folks and women, so THAT is my target. Identifying and calling in allies by having conversations with them where we can see our mutual blind spots is exactly what I dedicate my time to. I have worked with numerous institutions to have these conversations, and change policies around gender, so that it’s more equitable for both women and trans folks.
Being constantly attacked and misrepresented isn’t something I have the energy for. The way I was treated was unacceptable, and it’s something that BJ as a community should address.
For me, it’s not about who is right or who is wrong, but about whether folks can continue to have the conversation, learn from each other, and recognize that we’re actually on each other’s teams, but that teamwork is just that: WORK.
Tony Jay
@mrmoshpotato:
The greases knew what they were doing when they signed the deal, they were no angels.
@Bill Arnold:
Finally, a proper Infrastructure Week!
Anotherlurker
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation: Both very good points.
Kay
@planet eddie:
Right back at you, planet eddie. I think we can agree that you think I’m a bad ally and I think you’re a bad ally.
planet eddie
@Sister Golden Bear: I miss you too! I’m just lurking these days and very busy. I was down with a cold, so I was in bed on my phone today, perfect timing to get into the weeds here I guess 😂
Feel free to shoot me an email and we can connect!
planet eddie
@Kay: I would like to be a good ally. What would help you change your mind? I’m absolutely willing to try.
Betty Cracker
@Kay: FWIW, I see it too, and not for the first time. Sometimes I wonder if conflicting notions about what this blog is for contribute to the misunderstandings.
planet eddie
@Betty Cracker: can you clarify? What is the blog for? So far, every time I have tried to clarify or have a conversation with Kay, she has chosen another way to attack me.
Sister Golden Bear
@Another Scott: I could have phrased it with more nuance, e.g. “eddie doesn’t didnt feel comfortable posting here after several contentious threads.” Any honestly I wasn’t thinking about Kay at all, just the totality of the thread blow- ups.
I take some of Kay’s comments to heart. For example, I’m careful to note when I’m talking about TERFs in the UK — who are now aligning themselves with religious reactionary and various racist and anti-Semitic group — vs feminist in general, or the multitude of non-TERF feminists in the UK who have been vocal in their support of trans people.
Sister Golden Bear
@planet eddie: I too would like to know, Kay, how you think I can be a good ally. Instead of long-running arguments, how we get out of that and learn how to be mutual allies.
Betty Cracker
@planet eddie: Some people think it’s a place for freewheeling discussion — dorm lounge shoot-the-shit sessions for grownups. Some believe it serves its highest purpose as a hub for organizing or consciousness raising or something like that. I guess it’s all those things, but if you’re going into a conversation believing it’s A and other people think it’s B, different expectations can cause conflict. I tend to nope out when that happens, and I’m about to do that again because it’s time for a boat ride. ☮️
Kay
@planet eddie:
If you mean TERFS then say TERFS. I know a lot about feminism including the entire intersectional argument. I’ve read a lot. It sounds like you have too. There’s just no reason to group us all like this, especially now, when we’re so under attack, where we no longer have basic bodily autonomy.
“Feminists” didn’t write all those anti trans shitty laws and “feminists” didn’t vote for them either. I think it’s this weird misdirection, where all the anger is directed at women. It wasn’t even just you- it was the comments. I was shocked at how nasty the comments were towards women. This language just gives permission to people who don’t give a shit about trans people OR feminists to shit on feminists (or women in general), under cover of defending trans rights.
UncleEbeneezer
@Kay: Almost every woman in my social circle are proud Feminists. Executive directors at Planned Parenthood and League of Women Voters, Board Members at the National Women’s Political Caucus, Professors of Feminism/Gender Studies at local Universities, Organizers of LA’s Women’s March. I learn from them. I follow their example. They routinely and rightfully call out this sort of Transphobia and would be appalled by it, if they were here. They’ve asked us, especially Cis/Het men, to call this shit out whenever we see it because they care about all women, not just Cisgender ones. So have the Trans/NB people in my life that I care about. But believe me, most of time I’m calling out and pushing back against Misogyny/Sexism (and Transphobia) from Cis/Het men, in my own circles and in spaces far more toxic than this. Men who don’t even bother to couch their Transphobia under a patina of Feminism but respond very much like you. But at this point I have zero interest in what you say/think about any of this stuff. I’ll keep taking my cues from the Feminists I know who actually stand with Transgender People.
NotMax
Nay.
(Donning pedant chapeau, it’s yea or nay.)
Formerly disgruntled in Oregon
Courageous conversations are difficult, but they’re still worth having. We can all learn from each other. Good faith is critical for this, as well as humility.
“What-aboutism” derails things without fail.
Soprano2
I think everyone is on edge right now, which is contributing to what I see as an unusually high level of fighting on this blog. We’re all terrified that TFG could actually win the election and come back into power (and probably not ever leave until he’s dead *shudder*), with all the awfulness that entails. Things are heating up in the Middle East, to the point that I wouldn’t be surprised to see a full-bore regional war break out any day now. Then there’s the awfulness of what’s happening to Ukraine, and how Republicans in Congress are determined to help that along. Add how some states, like mine of MO, are trying to turn trans people into non-people, and other states are trying to criminalize women who want to leave the state to get a legal abortion elsewhere or who just need regular care for a miscarriage, and it’s no wonder people are hollering past each other in pain. I hate seeing people who I like fighting with each other, but I guess it’s unavoidable. We each have our own lives and experiences that color how we see and hear the things other people say and do. That’s why we talk past each other so much.
Just my 0.02¢.
Formerly disgruntled in Oregon
@Sister Golden Bear: So fucked up.
Republicans are making rapid progress is removing everyone’s bodily autonomy in the states they control. We have to keep them from seizing even more power.
Ohio Mom
To take a step back from the discussion on trans issues, for me personally, the discussions here and elsewhere in blogtopia on Israeli-Palestinian issues have set off a lot of introspection. What does it mean to me to be a member of the Jewish people, especially since the type of Judaism I most identify with, the Eastern European Bund, is pretty much extinct.
I don’t feel any camraderie with the ultra-Orthodox or Sephardim or many other variations on being Jewish. I mean, I wish Ethiopian Jews well but I don’t feel any commonality with them.
But then I read all sorts of clueless comments here (not malicious, just completely clueless, boy, were some of them clueless) and I think back to the shock I felt when my uncle, a sophisticated secular man who moved in public with ease, once said as an aside, “They all hate us.” It seemed so out of character. But there seems to be a certain truth there. I am connected to other types of Jews whether I like it or not.
Do I feel unsafe here on Balloon Juice, no, I identify with Kay when she talks about having thick skin.
Do I feel unsafe in my surbaban Midwestern life? Not at all. But I am increasingly aware that my sense of safety could be transient. A feeling that was reinforced recently when I read that FDR remarked that the United States was “a white Protestant country and the Catholics and Jews (and others) are here under sufferance.” (Had to look up sufference).
I don’t want to be in a contest on who feels/is more oppressed, there’s plenty of oppression to go around among those of us who are here under sufferance (we know who we are).
And I don’t need to read any more threads with clueless comments. I learned enough from the ones I already slogged through. So I also vote no on continuing this type of discussion.
Kay
@planet eddie:
If you had said to me “I’m concerned about my partner’s custody case because of the real threat of bigotry towards trans people entering into it” I am right there with you. I agree. It’s a real fear and I say this as someone who is in juvenile courts every day. Get a good lawyer. You’ll need one.
But you lose me with “this is an example of radical feminist anti trans bias” (paraphrasing, obviously). No, it’s not and if you’re actually going into this battle I’d spend more time worrying about a biased court system than I would about the failings of feminism. Punch up.
planet eddie
@Kay: Thank you for your response.
I have been trying from the beginning to differentiate and not lump feminists together. That was my intent from go. That is why I specified the differences between “reactionary feminism,” which is a creation of the far-right that is all about getting women back into patriarchal gender roles, and “radfem,” which is the online subset of “gender-critical feminists. In the UK, “radical feminism” is the branding that those like JKR have adopted to oppose trans rights, but the lineage goes back a lot farther and can be traced back to transphobic feminist groups in the US from the 1970s.
The former I don’t consider feminists at all. These are essentially the Moms for Liberty type folks who are harassing trans children and educators by claiming that they are a threat to women’s rights.
The latter I consider TERFs who have rebranded themselves to make themselves more palatable to the mainstream. Online groups that identify as “radfem” harbor a lot of women who are pro-abortion and women’s rights but anti-trans. They fight for “women-only spaces” by which they mean “no trans women/biological boys.”
I totally understand your position, and I understand that it can be triggering when someone uses language that you are proud of. I also think it’s fucked up, and I think that radical feminism MUST be intersectional. My intentions is to distinguish the various factions that threaten all of us, NOT to lump all feminists together.
As a trans person, I also find that once use the word TERF, folks just stop listening — it’s the same way that folks tune out if you call someone a racist. It’s why I’m trying to delineate the different ways folks are appropriating the language of equity in harmful ways.
Does that clarify for you at all?
Sister Golden Bear
@Ohio Mom: I see you. I hear you. If I make a clueless comment please feel free to let me know.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
I remember the fraught conversations last time. When you have a diverse coalition and the needs and issues of some folks conflict with the needs and issues of others, this is going to happen. I can tell you, for example, if you ask some of my Jewish friends what it means to be an ally to their community, there is no room to also be an ally to the Palestinians and vice versa. I also agree with MisterForkbeard that everyone has a point. This is all painful and awkward and true.
This is why I think allyship may be too much to expect for all people in our coalition. I remember something a friend of mine said years ago about the difference between a nice person and an ally. She meant it to be a critique of people who were unwilling/unable to become true allies. I realized I was fine with people who don’t meet that high bar. To give a specific example that hasn’t recently blown up the threads, I’m a lesbian who is married to a woman. I don’t care if someone calls my wife a ‘friend’. I don’t care if in their heart of hearts they can’t see my marraige as equivalent to theirs, as long as they don’t vote for people who want to take away the legal recognition of that marraige. It truly doesn’t matter to me if they are just being ‘nice’ and polite. All that matters is their stance on the law, that they are fine with people like me marrying our significant others even if they secretly find it a bit icky (basically pro-choice about gay marraige). Vote my way and you are ally enough for me. I extend them that grace. The world would be a better place if we had more nice people, even if they aren’t all true allies. More nice people would mean fewer horrible things happening to women, trans people, black people, Jewish people, Arab people, immigrants, workers, etc. I challenge you all to think about what behavior you consider to be close enough to allyship. Where do you draw the line for extending grace to people who don’t fully agree with you?
Ohio Mom
@Sister Golden Bear: I don’t remember you making a clueless comment, so rest assured.
Elizabelle
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony: Wonderful comment. Gracious.
WaterGirl
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony: Wow!
Great comment, great question.
planet eddie
@Kay: re: the custody case.
I am concerned about how this woman uses transphobic dog-whistles to argue that I am a threat to her child, and bully me into fearing for my relationship with him (which is very positive). She uses language that has emerged from online “radfem” groups (of which she is a member), which are the equivalent of redpill MRA groups. Those groups are gender-critical “feminists,” who are extremely hostile to trans folks, who they view as trying to harm women.
FWIW, I continue to put “feminist” in quotes when I don’t think someone is actually a feminist. Because anyone who wants to harm trans folks isn’t one in my book.
I understand—and have understood—that you are hurt by words that you feel strongly about and that have been taken away from you. I ask that you consider that I am trying very hard to be specific about the exact factions that are harming not only trans people but women as well. I agree that it sucks that the language has been co-opted, but it has, and the groups that use this language are trying to blot trans people out of existence.
Ohio Mom
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony: That is a good point because I suspect most if not all of us extend that sort of grace often in meat space life. I know I do.
It’s funny that you mention Jewish friends who balk at allyship with Palestinians. That is certainly one of the sources of my sense of alienation from other American Jews, my long-standing ambivalence (even disinterest in) Israel and my sympathy for the Palestinians.
Apparently too many of us want everyone else to conform to our way of thinking, whatever that may be, without any empathy for why they are unable to.
eclare
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony:
Wonderful comment. My only line for grace is who do you vote for, that is all I need to know. But I am a white cishet woman, so it’s easy for me to have a line like that.
Soprano2
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony: Thanks for this. I think sometimes people don’t realize how much fear and confusion there is about what’s the “correct” language to use, or the “correct” way to talk about these issues, and they’re afraid of using the “wrong” words and getting attacked for it as being not an ally or friend. Lots of us are just trying to understand these things, and especially if we’re older stuff has changed a lot in our lifetimes and we’re just trying the best we can to figure it out. Sometimes it seems to me that no sooner is a word or phrase deemed “correct” that something happens, and now suddenly that’s wrong and you need to say “y” instead of “x”, and some of us just can’t keep up with that all the time. Everyone needs a little bit of grace as long as they’re trying their best to understand.
Tony Jay
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony:
Excellently said as ever.
I guess, to be going on with, an ally is someone who has your back even if they don’t have your phone number and thinks your taste in music stinks.
We’ve all got different priorities, different bugbears, different hang ups, different blind spots. But we also know that what we’re fighting is, basically, the globally organised campaign to drive us apart on these fracture lines so a few people can be stinking rich.
I don’t have to like piccalilli sandwiches in order to march alongside a piccalilli sandwich salesman in the fight against making piccalilli sandwiches illegal. I just won’t eat lunch with them afterwards.
AlaskaReader
Bigots have always latched onto whatever they can in their attempts to ‘normalize’ their bigotry.
When faced with public acceptance of one of their hates, they pivot to another hate, a substitution, so that they can continue their push for normalizing their bigotry.
When mixed marriage became more socially acceptable, they pivot.
When gay marriage became more acceptable, they pivot.
I fervently hope we will, in the end, always beat them in the public arena, but in the meantime, whoever is subject to their hate has to, in all ways, bear the brunt of their hate.
I hate that.
satby
@Another Scott: Right there with you.
planet eddie
@Kay: I am heading out now, but I just ask that you stop paraphrasing what I’m saying as though I am some villain who hates women or feminists. I’m not, and I haven’t said many of the things you seem to think I have. I am very clearly differentiating between different groups of people.
If one of the cis-women who FPed at this blog was attacked the way I was by a man over a linguistic misunderstanding, I think y’all would have been up in arms. I had expected more from the other FPers here.
satby
@planet eddie: I am sorry you were and continue to be subjected to this kind of hostility here.
satby
@WaterGirl: golly, maybe you can use it to start another dumpster fire.
Kay
@planet eddie:
It does clarify but I would ask you to consider the effect your language had on the comments to that post. It immediately turned into feminist bashing. I use “feminazi” because one of the comments under your post did. If I hadn’t have objected no one would have. Apparently it’s just fine.
You know, Matt Gaetz now uses “Karen” to insult liberal women. He blows off the political risk of Dobbs by sneering that the Right will replace every “Karen” voter with a man. They’re using this “joke” on the Left- our thinly veiled contempt for middle aged women- against women. I knew they would. Being careful of the effect of language works both ways. That’s what intersectional means.
Kay
@UncleEbeneezer:
Oh, just stop intellectualizing and read what you wrote. You would be insulted if I had written that about “liberal men” or some group you belong to, your “problematic behavior” and the stern correction.
Women recognized it as sexist because it is. You don’t deliver these lectures to anyone but women and only on this issue.
Kay
@Sister Golden Bear:
I would ask that you stop using “feminists” unless you mean “feminists” and if you DO mean feminists well, expect me to disagree with your low opinion of us. All it does it give people permission to bash women in this bullshit “I’m only defending trans people!” dishonest construct that happens every single time it’s used. The Right gets that- they’re fucking GLEEFUL about it and they’ve all adopted it. When do you get it? You can’t cover “feminism” or “feminist” in shit and have me sit back and accept that.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@Kay: The feminists they’re discussing are every bit as feminist as right wing Christians are Christians. The labels still gets applied because those groups apply them to themselves.
It isn’t SGB and eddie’s fault the term feminism is being appropriated by awful people and they are not covering feminism in shit. Fucking TERFs are.
O. Felix Culpa
@Kay:
By that logic, every FPer is responsible for every ugly turn in the comments to their posts, which seems a little harsh. I’ve seen things get nasty here in response to the most benign of topics, regardless of the FPer’s proper use of language or not. Perhaps the comments were a reflection of some members of the community, since I believe they (we) too have agency.
John Cole
I’ve had about enough of this discussion. No mas. People’s intent may be to help, but they just wreak havoc on everyone. There’s enough shit to fight about without looking for stuff.
Anne Laurie
From one of the female cis-gender front-pagers: No, no they would not. Some of the loudest self-proclaimed ‘allies’ would be the first to dismiss such attacks as ‘Well, you see, she’s tough. She knows how we talk around here. We can say *anything* to her, it’s perfectly fine!’
But the *most* contentious battles would start with another female front-pager going into See how I am *victimized* by this monster!!! mode.
Which, frankly, is one reason I don’t think setting up a Victim Porn sidebar is a good idea.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
I think some productive stuff came out of this thread, if you look for it.
Fighting drives engagement. Maybe we should have dedicated blog nemesis posts. One on one cage matches where we hash out our differences. Some of us might even wind up finding a better place with each other.
ETA: I’ll jump on a Zoom with Schrodinger’s Cat right now.
rikyrah
@Sister Golden Bear:
I learned a lot through reading your posts. I appreciate them, for their information and their honesty. The connection of the dots of hatred that are teeming in red states.
satby
@Kay: just stop. Enough.
When the kindest man in the Internet chastises you it’s time to sit back and think about your choices. The horse is dead.
FelonyGovt
@rikyrah: Concur 100%.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
Who dat?
Lobo
Something nice to end the day:
Hope lives inside us, despite the darkness.
https://twitter.com/tetyanaukrainka/status/1744194285530935481
Lobo
Something nice to end the day:
Hope lives inside us, despite the darkness.
https://twitter.com/tetyanaukrainka/status/1744194285530935481
WaterGirl
@Lobo: Thanks for that link to the Ukraine artist.
I deleted the previous comment because the link didn’t work and I could see that you had just posted again with a working link.
Miss Bianca
@Kay: No, she’s not. :/
Sister Golden Bear
@Kay: If you’ll read my comment at #224, you’ll see that I took your criticism from the prior threads, and have now tried to be specific in my language. Whether it’s TERFs, or Second Wave radfems like Janice Raymond, who wrote the influential anti-trans book “Transsexual Empire.” Neither of which represents mainstream feminism of today, which I actually have an high opinion of, and which I believe in.
It sucks when reactionaries and haters co-opt your language — ask me how I know — but there are some anti-trans cis women who actively work to enable discrimination under the mantle of “feminism.” Moreso in the UK, but some of them were active in campaigns that successfully enacted bathroom bills and bans on trans athletes. There’s plenty of receipts of them working with the reactionary right on this.
I would hope we can agree that while they’re calling themselves “feminists,” and promoting their anti-trans actions in the name of “feminism,” that they aren’t representative of feminism in the main. And as said previously, I’ll continue to try to be careful to distinguish them from mainstream feminism.
Bupalos
I feel like this is working it’s way to a better place. Personally I value both these commenters a great deal. We all have sore places that can stop us in our tracks and leave us unable to sort out or litigate intentionality when pushed on in certain ways. It’s unreasonable to expect us to be able to fully hear each other through that pain, but there’s really nothing more noble and more apt to lead to growth than when we try. Pain has obviously been present in this discussion, but that effort is present in this discussion as well, and I’m grateful for that.
TiredOfItAll
“Be kind, be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.”
Tony Jay
@TiredOfItAll:
Simple, but all true things are.
KSinMA
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony: “Vote my way and you are ally enough for me.”
Just wanted to see that again. Thanks.