Election Interference trial Day 1. Day 5 if you include jury selection.
Where are BJ peeps following along on the NY Election Interference case?
Josh Kovensky at TPM – Live Blogging
Mark Sumner at Daily Kos – Live Blogging
Washington Post – Live Blogging
All I can find on C-SPAN is a 3-minute video of Trump whining and making excuses. Seems like they should either not have that up on their site or include more of the trial.
I see ABC and NBC “live” coverage, but it’s mostly talking heads blah-blah-blahing, so I won’t include the links here.
If you have good sources, I will add them up top.
Because I love you guys, I will not add a photo of the orange guy to the post.
Update: Link to transcript of the NY trial (24-hour delay) h/t LAO
Mr. Bemused Senior
TPM is live blogging it.
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/live-blog/opening-arguments-set-to-begin-in-trumps-first-criminal-trial?entry=1486601
NotMax
There’s no direct audio or video. There is live offsite coverage – such as it is. For example, ABC News.
smith
Mark Sumner at dkos is liveblogging, as is AP here: https://apnews.com/live/trump-trial-updates-opening-statements#0000018f-0651-d7ed-a9af-afd56bd70000
Nelle
Thank you for no picture. Funny how it insinuates into the brain. The orange face appeared in a dream last week, about 3 am. That was the end of sleeping that night. I’m more cautious about what I look at, but it is everywhere. Time for a news break?
feebog
Several twitter sources saying Trump is already nodding off during opening statements.
brendancalling
Washington Post is liveblogging.
Although I think my favorite blog today is Eschaton, which may be the only lefty blog not paying attention to any of this. Top post currently is something about Harvard and Taylor Swift.
Villago Delenda Est
Good call, WaterGirl. Otherwise we’d have to go all smell-o-vision on you.
WaterGirl
@smith: Thanks for those!
NotMax
Wow. Dolt 45 declined to spout off after court, just strode right on past the press pool and sent out the odious Habba to prevaricate in his stead.
Quinerly
I am following on the Tune In app…MSNBC on my outside speakers.
As a retired atty, I find it incredibly interesting that there are 2 attys on the jury. For most of my practice lawyers were excluded from jury duty in Missouri. Only in the last few years of my practice was the rule changed.
Would love for our atty BJers to weigh in on their thoughts about having lawyers on this jury.
WaterGirl
@Nelle: Oh, ugh. shudder.
WaterGirl
@Villago Delenda Est: You can kind of see his face on the CSPAN whine embed, but it’s small.
I had to take down the ABC video embed because his ugly, reptile face was fucking HUGE, and that’s the image that showed until you played the video.
Just could not do it.
Anonymous At Work
Doing the Daily Kos. Simple summaries.
The defensive strategy chosen goes long on hanging the jury with one guy. This won’t end in an innocent verdict; only guilty or hung. “He did it but everyone does it and ‘outsiders’ are making it a deal, along with Cohen seeking vengeance.”
Were I the prosecutors, I’d have Michael Cohen’s testimony sandwiched in deep between the two most trustable and polished witnesses.
WaterGirl
@Quinerly: I heard last night on Lawfare that there are 3 attorneys on the jury. I don’t know which number is right, but either way, it’s interesting.
Like you, I found it surprising. I think it happens more than we know because Harry Litman was talking about when he was on jury duty.
Gin & Tonic
Nowhere. Life is too short as it is.
WaterGirl
@Anonymous At Work: Mark Sumner was most excellent for the first two days of jury selection. He didn’t do the third day.
Glad to see that he’s back for this!
NotMax
@Villago Delenda Est
Scream.
;)
Anonymous At Work
@WaterGirl: That BLOWS MY MIND. I’ve never been called and thankfully so. Wait 2 hours and then be told, “We’d rather not have an attorney who can easily second-guess everything we say and do AND knows what all the sidebars with the judge are about.”
And I don’t practice.
WaterGirl
@Gin & Tonic: Fair enough!
Tyler McBrien from Lawfare will be doing two summaries every week. A Wednesday summary of Mon-Tues events and a Saturday summary of Thur-Fri events.
I plan to read that for sure. He is an excellent writer.
currants
@Quinerly:
Lawyers and even judges serve on juries in MA. I was on a jury relatively recently, and when the case was settled (after we were empaneled), the judge came back to speak to us about what happened and why. He said that doing so was a result of his recent jury service and how little information was given to jurors and he wanted to change that.
lowtechcyclist
Pecker’s about to testify.
The tabloid guy, not Trump’s pecker.
Quinerly
@WaterGirl:
Each state is different.
There is some on line speculation that an atty on this jury would be more likely to hang the jury decision.
I am not so sure. My feelings….for the most part, attys respect the system, rules, judges, the court room setting. I think Trump’s antics, plus his falling asleep/overall disrespect for the process will piss off these attys.
I am curious what others think.
WaterGirl
@Quinerly:
Me, too.
Baud
@WaterGirl:
Lawyers usually get dinged with peremptory challenges, but when you have to use them to get rid of people who you think hate you, lawyers can get through.
smith
In TFG’s other encounter with the law today, his attorneys have reached an agreement with the court to fix the worst flaws in the proposed bond for the fraud judgment so that the Schwab bank acct is truly and legally pledged if he loses his appeal. I still think that money is probably already pledged as collateral for something else, and it will be a bitch for the state to actually claim it.
Chris Johnson
@WaterGirl: I’ve been watching Harry Litman on the case. Interesting and elucidating :)
coin operated
@WaterGirl: Agree. Mark is probably the only person besides Kos that I pay attention to at GOS.
NotMax
@Anonymous At Work
Touched base with a friend here who is currently serving on a jury. He told me they pump in white noise during the sidebars but that from his particular seat in the jury he’s close enough to clearly hear what’s said at the bench. Also said he informed the judge of this and was essentially given the response, “That’s life, kiddo. Nothing to be done about it.”
Anonymous At Work
@Quinerly: Plus side of attorneys: “This is it?”
Negative side: “This is an incredibly sanitized version of a lot of shit TFG does. And it IS all illegal.”
cain
@feebog: Gonna get smelly in there.
counterfactual
@smith: My understanding is that Knight Insurance is on the hook for the funds, so if Trump can’t pay Knight, Knight goes under,
JoyceH
I’ve got dog class this evening and trying to decide if I want to bag it and stay home and glut out on trial coverage. It’s not every day the worst and most dangerous person of my lifetime goes on criminal trial.
Anonymous At Work
@NotMax: A practicing litigator as I think at least 2 are would NOT need to hear anything. “Objection!” with the judge or opposing attorney requesting a sidebar would be enough to 90%.
WaterGirl
@Baud:
That makes total sense! I should have thought of that.
NotMax
@counterfactual
So Dolt 45 is a … Knight rider?
//
Butch
@JoyceH: Go to dog class. There will be plenty of coverage when you get home.
Geminid
@Quinerly: My Atlanta friend was talking yesterday about his experience on Georgia criminal juries. He retired from civil law practice some years ago, and has served on juries for three criminal trials.
He said that in general he thought jury members “really want to get it right” and tried their best. As for himself, he said he never participated much in deliberations because he’s a “professional persuader” (he’s a good one!) and did not think it was fair. He avoided being named foreman for the same reason. He’s a very scrupulous person though, and some lawyers might not see their role like he did.
WaterGirl
Interesting from TPM:
Leto
Came back from a long dog walk to find Marc Short, Mike Dense’s chief of staff, blabbering on MSNBC about how “the country is so polarized at this point, that most of the electorate doesn’t like either candidate” and just immediately muted it. Again, most of MNSBC’s morning/afternoon coverage is dominated by former Republicans/conservatives. It’s basically not worth watching till around 6pm EST.
@Villago Delenda Est: Clean up on aisle everywhere… just clean it all.
WaterGirl
So the trial is done for today. Resuming tomorrow 11am Eastern time, going from 11-2pm.
Short day!
edit: starting late because of the contempt hearing and leaving early because of Passover. Thanks to brendancalling and PAM Dirac.
Leto
@WaterGirl:
How long were they waiting to write that? Was that one stored for just this occasion? Is it too early to start a drinking game? Hahaha, just so many jokes with that one sentence.
WaterGirl
I really like being able to choose whether to order the live blogging starting with Oldest or Latest.
brendancalling
@WaterGirl: Passover, people want to go home.
WaterGirl
@Leto: from TPM comments
Baud
@WaterGirl:
Can’t believe they accommodated Trump’s need for executive time.
TBone
@WaterGirl: this is why I made a dick joke about him yesterday.
rikyrah
@counterfactual:
I still believe they were trying to pull a fast one on AG James.
PAM Dirac
@WaterGirl: Except I think they will be in court at 9(?) to argue the contempt motion and then get back to the trial at 11.
WaterGirl
I am going to save this photo from the TPM comments – and use it for the image of all these NY Trump Trial posts.
WaterGirl
@PAM Dirac: Oh, you are so right!
WaterGirl
@brendancalling: oh, right. Starting late because of the contempt motion and leaving early because of Passover.
Anoniminous
Just the first steps in the kabuki. In order of low-to-high likelihood in the context of WTFDIK and IANAL so IMHO:
If he is found Not Guilty that’s the end of it.
If a hung jury and a retrial and the kabuki resets to start.
If he is found guilty he’ll appeal.
Thus this particular tate, tanzen, roppo, or mie is meh ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Another Scott
@NotMax: I was on a civil trial jury for a few days a few years ago. At the end of jury selection the judge called the opposing teams up to the bench. I heard him saying to the opposing teams (in a whisper) that he was concerned that we were an all white jury (because the plaintiffs were a Black family). Both sides agreed in whispers that they thought we could be fair.
And I think we were. (We found for the Black family.)
Cheers,
Scott.
TBone
Until I can see (find) a full transcript of the prosecution’s opening statement, I’m reserving my opinion today. Except to say that objections and side bars during opening are 🧐
I am not a lawyer, by design 🤣
smith
@counterfactual: That’s why they had to make Knight’s access to the money in the Schwab account ironclad, so they will have the money if they need to pay. As it was originally set up, TFG could have played games with it so the money would be inaccessible when the time came.
Baud
@Another Scott:
I bet you look like a fair person.
Mr. Bemused Senior
@WaterGirl: classic!
Anonymous At Work
@WaterGirl: Wonder which way that will cut. Will it make jurors think, “The really rich DO live in a different world and cutting checks is just part of their world” or “No wonder TFG seems so entitled; he just cuts a check and makes legal problems disappear.”
I wonder if the prosecution or defense will try to run with it later on.
WaterGirl
@Mr. Bemused Senior: If that’s A.I. then I don’t want to know. I am believing that the kitty is snuggled and content underneath his bigger buddy.
WaterGirl
@Anonymous At Work: Or maybe some of the sleeve emanating from Pecker will rub off on Trump, by association. Of course, Trump is sleazy all on his own. Or maybe sleaze by association makes it easier to see.
There’s no telling.
oldgold
I really dislike how leisurely these trials move. All the damn breaks and interruptions are BS. Once started, jury cases should be tried hard from 9 to 5 with minimal breaks and go 5 days a week. Of course, there will be exceptions to this, but they should be very rare.
Stopping at 12:30 today? What the hell? And, worse, every Wednesday no trial session. The inconvenience to the parties and jurors, the opportunity for mischief and losing the narrative are all problems with this pacing. And, yes, I know this Judge is better than most at keeping things moving.
Leto
@WaterGirl: I’m glad I put my water down before I read this. :P
WaterGirl
@oldgold: I wonder if they’ve come to realize that humans simply cannot focus like that all day, every day, for a long period of time.
WaterGirl
@Leto: haha
cain
@WaterGirl: How many Trump farts is that?
TBone
@oldgold: the longer and more drawn out it is, the more Dotard suffers. He has to get up and get sprayed every morning to sit at Judge Merchan’s mercy. That’s part of why he’s sleeping, the other part is sedation I bet.
Van Buren
@Anonymous At Work: Same here. My wife is an attorney and was kicked out of the jury pool for the Sackler case even though both sides said they were OK with her. The judge didn’t want her on.
Mr. Bemused Senior
That was my reaction too.
Leto
@oldgold: the judge has more than just this one trial; he’s working multiple trials at once, and has taken Wednesday as the day that he tries to do more of the administrative work on a lot of them. Want this shit to move faster? Judicial reform: add more federal judges, add more SC members. Do I like it taking this long? Fuck no, but I also recognize that unlike Cannon, most of these judges are trying to move it as fast as they can.
oldgold
@TBone: So what? That is not the purpose of this exercise.
From Mueller forward, the systems inability to move forward at reasonable pace has been Trump’s ally.
smith
@oldgold: Judges have multiple responsibilities that they have to fulfill even when they are trying a case. In Merchan’s case, on Wednesdays he oversees a Mental Health Court, where mentally ill defendants get extra attention and guidance.
Captain C
Contempt charges? What did I miss today (or last week when I was on vacation)?!?
oldgold
@Leto: Let him do his paperwork Saturday morning.
This just isn’t any old case. The Judge has a responsibility to keep this damn circus on the road.
Leto
@oldgold: How about this? You volunteer to do the paperwork. Sounds like a great compromise. Chop chop, get to work.
oldgold
@smith: Assign it to another Judge during the term of this trial.
dmsilev
@oldgold:
The judge reserves Wednesday for hearings on all the other trials on his docket. Would you shut down all the other cases and their path towards trial for the six or so weeks that this one is estimated to need?
Baud
@oldgold:
Actually, this is any old case. It’s not the court’s job to keep Trump out of power. Its job is to try the case.
Eta: Fixed wording
Leto
@Captain C: Bragg’s office has raised several instances where the Russian asset has potentially violated his gag order on tweeting threats to/about the jury. They count 10 instances so far, so tomorrow’s ruling will be on that.
WaterGirl
@Captain C: 7 violations of the gag order have been presented by the prosecution. Both sides had a few days to respond, and this is the hearing about the potential gag order violates.
@Leto: Are there 10 now?
dmsilev
@Captain C: Those are about Trump mouthing off (Truthing off?) on social media over the last week or two, going against the terms of the gag order.
TBone
@TBone:
https://crooksandliars.com/2024/04/about-those-opening-arguments
Quinerly
@Baud:
💙
LAO
@Baud: In my experience, it’s virtually impossible not to seat a lawyer on Manhattan jury. In the last SDNY jury voir dire I participated in, 1/3 of the panel of prospective jurors were either practicing attorneys or had law degrees.
Baud
@LAO:
Interesting. I’ve heard that about DC, but I assumed NYC would have a more diverse jury pool.
oldgold
I was setoff when Pecker was called to the stand for just a few minutes this morning. Stuff like that is so disruptive for trial attorneys trying to set the narrative of their case. This is particularly so in the early stages of the trial.
Leto
@WaterGirl: I thought it was up to 10, but if the last count was 7 I’m good with that. Hell, he might have added some more charges over the weekend. We’ll see what they present tomorrow morning. Just hoping that he’s hit with a substantial penalty to shut his fucking yap. Maybe bring EJ Carrolls lawyers in to assist because they know how to effectively close that shit down.
TBone
@Leto: 😎
oldgold
@Baud: Ha. Right, just any old case. Just another Monday at the old courthouse.
oldgold
@dmsilev: No, I would not shut down those hearings. I would have them assigned to another Judge. It happens all the damn time.
Baud
@oldgold:
Correct. The BJ position is that Trump should be treated like any other criminal defendant.
TBone
@TBone: law professor school on opening statements
LAO
@Baud: Manhattan. There’s a much better mix in Brooklyn and Queens. Not going to mention Staten Island (the Alabama of NYC).
Ceci n est pas mon nym
@WaterGirl: Must have to do with the type of case. I’m used to being dismissed just for having advanced degrees. But the one jury I actually sat on, a first-degree murder case, the entire jury was highly educated.
So something about these charges made one side or the other decide they like lawyers. Or at least don’t dislike them.
LAO
@Leto: You’re correct, it’s at 10 violations ( the original 3, plus 7 new violations).
smith
@oldgold: Merchan has driven this case more relentlessly than the judges in TFG’s previous cases, so your anger seems to me to be misplaced. If you need to blame someone, maybe look to some of the appellate courts that have been involved that have at times appeared to be content to mosey through what to me are matters that should be urgently resolved (lookin’ at you, Supreme Court).
oldgold
@Baud: Your missing my point. I am not arguing the Judge has a responsibility to move the needle one way or another as to the outcome of this trial. What I am arguing is that he has a responsibility to keep this circus moving. That goes for every case and, given the totality of the circumstances presented by Trump, it is extra important to do so in this trial.
Villago Delenda Est
@TBone: I sat on a jury involving welfare fraud back in the late 70s, when dinosaurs ruled the Earth. It involved a lot of documentation of various attempts to fund a nightclub using welfare as a basis. What really killed things for the defendant, however, was a particular police report involving child abuse by the defendant that was not entered into evidence, as there were so many documents related to the defendant just lying around. We told the judge about this, and several of the jurors admitted that this non-evidence had swayed their opinion of the defendant. It also didn’t help that this guy was blah, this is Oregon we’re talking about here.
Baud
@oldgold:
He is keeping the case moving. You’re arguing for a special schedule for Trump.
way2blue
This one too—Adam Klasfeld at Just Security »
https://nitter.poast.org/KlasfeldReports
oldgold
@Baud: The first 3 days of this trial he is using 50% of the time available. That is a leisurely pace.
Leto
@Villago Delenda Est: @Ceci n est pas mon nym: the one time I had a jury summons was during my first enlistment, and first duty station. Yes it was the same state, but different counties and I was active duty mil at the time. I wrote back stating that, and that was that. It’s been 27 years and I’ve never received another summons. Ofc where I live now is the longest I’ve lived in the states since 2008. It’s not that I’m particularly jumping at the bit to be on a jury, but I’m also not going to try to shirk my responsibility if called upon.
Baud
@oldgold:
How do you know how much time is available to this judge?
smith
@Ceci n est pas mon nym: It’s not just the number of lawyers on this jury that surprises me, it’s the number of college educated professionals. There are very few of the jurors who haven’t had at least some college. I guess it reflects as much as anything the cost of housing in Manhattan. There are necessarily a lot of blue collar workers in Manhattan, but few of them can afford to live there.
LAO
@oldgold: The judge set the early break today in deference to a juror. It may be unfortunate for the public but NYC Judges will bend over backwards to accommodate jurors. Happens every day and trial lawyers understand this.
Eolirin
@WaterGirl: Hell, the evidence that 9 to 5, five days a week work schedules broadly create negative value for productivity is now overwhelming. Having people making important decisions holding to that kind of schedule would be absolutely counterproductive.
trollhattan
@WaterGirl: That’s gonna have me laughing for awhile.
LAO
@oldgold: How are you calculating the 50% trial day?
Tomorrow is 9:30 to 2pm. The short day is to accommodate the religious beliefs of a sitting juror. 9:30-11:00 is the contempt hearing. What am I missing?
Quinerly
@oldgold:
You are clueless.
oldgold
@Baud: Specifically, I do not, but having sat around courthouses for decades trying cases, I have a pretty damn good idea.
cain
@Villago Delenda Est:
Character assassination is a go to tactic. My wife was a defendant in a trial and they tried to make her out as something evil for the temerity of filing a lawsuit against a nurse who didn’t listen to her when the nurse was trying to give her a shot and damaged a nerve. She won regardless – but they do some serious background checking.
prostratedragon
@Leto: Taking aim
JaySinWA
From the DKOS feed:
So if Trump takes the stand they get another chance to impeach (his testimony anyway). May a conviction follow.
oldgold
@Quinerly: How many jury cases have you tried?
smith
@LAO: Right, and that juror had an emergency dental appointment. I can’t see what other choice the judge had — make the juror suffer through the trial until Wednesday? Remove that juror, and put in an alternate even before the trial starts for the sake of gaining about two hours of extra time today?
The other reason we have short days today and tomorrow is because of Passover. Would it be reasonable to make it difficult/impossible for Jews to serve of this jury to just save about 6 hours? In Manhattan?? If this trial were in December, would anyone fume if the trial weren’t being held on Christmas day?
Quinerly
@oldgold:
24 to completion.
Federal, Missouri, Illinois.
Practiced from 1985 to 2020. 3 law firms, in house counsel for a bank, solo practice.
cmorenc
@Quinerly:
I am a retired / recovering :=) attorney who was on a jury in a federal criminal trial – maybe because both sides had exhausted peremptory challenges by the time i was called into the panel. I had formerly done trial work myself, including criminal defense, when i was called.
My fellow jurors were a true representative cross-section of business and trade people, and during our several-hour deliberation toward deciding a verdict, what greatly impressed me was that each individual member picked out some important fact or point the rest of us had overlooked or failed to grasp the full importance of on our own. Can’t say all juries are this sharp, but at least ours would have been impossible to baffle with B.S.
BTW I was elected foreman of this jury, but the only way my background had any special influence was my awareness of how some of the indictment counts charged which the prosecution had technically proved the defendant guilty dead-to-rights on, would likely under federal sentencing result in an unjustly harsh sentence for the actual nature of what he did, and so I and another like-minded juror persuaded the others to only find the defendant guilty of a single felony count out of 18 charges. It’s likely both sides initially reacted to our verdict with “WTF?” but likely figured out quickly that what had just happened was a classic case of partial jury nullification – make sure the defendant gets labeled a felon with some modest jail time, but without potentially binding the judge to an unduly harsh amount of minimum prison time.
Leto
@prostratedragon: You know, when I first saw it in person I thought I was going to giggle just because. But I was too busy staring at all the other details, and thinking about the creative process, that it wasn’t till a few hours later when my wife mentioned, “I thought you would’ve giggled” that I was basically like, “Yeah, me too.”
Albatrossity
I too am a bit surprised that attorneys are on this jury, but upon reflection, I think it might be a good thing if it helps other jurors get through some of the confusing and obfuscatory language of the defense attorneys. I have been an expert witness in a number of cases (both on the prosecution and on the defense sides), and have never been called for jury duty here. I always wondered if I am excluded because of that prior involvement with our local legal folks, And I imagine that attorneys in areas less urban than NYC have no chances of ever being on a jury; they have probably pissed off enough other attorneys and judges to get on the blackballed list permanently!
oldgold
Then, you must know that calling for jury trial to move forward with a minimum of interruptions and delays is not a position that is clueless.
LAO
@cmorenc: Do you know what the sentence was cause the federal concept of relevant conduct permits sentencing based on acquitted conduct?
I’m curious.
Belafon
@oldgold: You’re someone who thinks it’s the job of the court to save us from Trump, aren’t you? Guess what: This outcome, whether guilty or not, will not replace our responsibility to keep him out of office.
So the case will take as long as it needs to and will be done when it ends.
oldgold
@LAO: Monday 9:30 to 12:30. Wednesday no trial. Of the first 3 days, using one half of the time.
Gaffer
Thanks for no long list of re-tweets.
Albatrossity
@oldgold: Passover might help explain the trial schedule this week
Quinerly
@cmorenc:
Once the rule changed in Missouri, I was summoned twice. Even though St. Louis is a good sized city, it really has a small world legal community feel. For the most part every one knows each other. Things may have changed in the last few year, but in the past it was really rare to have an atty on a jury. Both times I showed up, I was struck immediately. Was personal friends with some of the attys.
TBone
@oldgold: yet, here we are, actually having an election interference criminal trial with solid evidence and everything! Sorry (for you) if your demand for pacing isn’t being accommodated. I’m just thrilled to be witnessing this very American history. Due Process.
oldgold
@Belafon: No. I do not think that.
I think the job of the Court in a jury trail is to keep the thing on the road.
Leto
@cmorenc: so what you’re saying is that you were in 12 Angry Men irl? :P
LAO
@oldgold: I don’t know where you practiced but it’s standard in NY (not every judge but most judges in trials scheduled to be longer than 2 weeks) to have a 4 day trial week so that there is a single day open for all the other cases on the Court’s docket.
I realize you’re unhappy with the schedule but it’s fairly normal for NYC. Trump isn’t getting special treatment for good or for bad.
oldgold
@TBone: I would like a more emphasis in due and less on process.
West of the Rockies
Tuning in late… did Pecker appear in any way helpful or harmful or just neutral?
Leto
@oldgold: I’m sure Judge Merchan doesn’t know this, so my advice of you volunteering to be a pro-bono law clerk still stands. I’m sure you’ll be Saavk to his Kirk.
rikyrah
@smith:
truth
I don’t know how NY is set up.
Is that courthouse the only place where someone can serve on a state jury?
In Cook County, we have 5 Courthouses, plus downtown and 26th and California(where the jail complex is). You can be chosen to serve on a jury at a Courthouse /Downtown/26th and California. While you will get the Courthouse closest to your house..Anyone from Cook County can be chosen for downtown or 26th and California.
Leto
@West of the Rockies: well he started out a little shy, but with some encouragement he really rose to the occasion…
(and yes, we’ve been like this all day)
TBone
@oldgold: so say we all.
H.E.Wolf
Paraphrasing one of the live-bloggers: one of the jurors has an emergency dental procedure in the early afternoon.
oldgold
@LAO: Do you think it is a good idea to have the first witness in a trial testify for 15 minutes and then have the trial shut down for the day? It is ridiculous.
prostratedragon
@Leto: I’ve only seen photos so far, but there’s a kind of memory thing where one builds up an image over time, and then uses it as a platform to see more. This is a very great statue.
Quinerly
@LAO:
Lots of jurisdictions do the 4 day trial week. Jurors are accommodated for medical appts. Holidays happen. I fail to understand what the commentator is ranting about.
Personally, I think now that it has finally started, Trump’s mental state and any self control he has left will further deteriorate. I think a little dragging on will push him over the edge and we are in for quite a performance either in the courtroom or outside or both. I am not at all upset about the schedule.
LAO
@rikyrah: NYC is made up of 5 boroughs, with 5 separate District Attorneys offices. They are: New York County (Manhattan), Kings County (Brooklyn), Queens county, Richmond County (Staten Island) and The Bronx.
Each county has there own Supreme Court, although there may be more than one location within the county. Jurors have no choice but a juror must live in the county they are called for juror service
TBone
@oldgold: the jurors might not think so. I mean, the less Pecker I see, the better I feel, most days.
LAO
@oldgold: ok
oldgold
@H.E.Wolf:
Yes, I know. It was an alternate juror. And, except for that, the Judge was going to end the trial at 2:30 PM today.
Tuesday is truncated and on Wednesday there will be no trial.
Wapiti
@smith: I was on a criminal trial jury maybe 5-8 years back in Seattle. I think the entire jury was white collar or retired. I think that salaried employees have less room to ask to be exempted. A hotel maid or a journeyman carpenter would take a serious economic hit to be on a jury for 2 weeks, nevermind this 6 week trial. (We did have a youngish guy who was disappointed to be dismissed in voir dire; he was looking forward to the experience, but lawyers didn’t like his man-bun or piercings…)
WaterGirl
@LAO: I was just thinking I wish you were here, and you appeared!
LAO
@Quinerly: Agreed. I practiced criminal defense in NYC (state and federal). What’s happened/happening is nothing strange. I personally loved when the trial day off was Wednesday because it gave me the opportunity not drop dead in the middle of a lengthy trial.
ETA: well I sound crazy. The break in the middle of the week made it easier to maintain the punishing pace of a trial. You can easily put in 18 hours a day during a trial, weekends included.
Dangerman
Damn. Present photo on dart board full of holes.
I won’t share the bulls eye. You can likely guess
ETA: Clue. Ed Ames.
Ruckus
@Quinerly:
As a non lawyer that has been on juries before, some easily reached verdicts and one that took a couple of days to discuss the issues, I am absolutely glad I live no where near this so that there is zero risk that I could be called and picked, if for no other reason than having to be possibly be in a room for any length of time with Stinky McStinkypants.
Frankensteinbeck
@oldgold:
Passover is the second holiest week in the Jewish calendar. Passover vs the High Holidays is Easter vs Christmas for Jews. The seder nights are extremely important and ‘you do not skip’ events for observant Jews. If there are any observant Jews involved in the court, including jury, quitting early is a complete no-brainer.
Treating Trump like any other defendant means making the same court schedule exceptions you would for any other defendant.
prostratedragon
@Quinerly:
He’s on the path already.
TBone
@TBone:
smith
@oldgold: Are you still unwilling to acknowledge that today and tomorrow were planned to be truncated because of Passover? Should the judge just tell any Jewish jurors to like it or lump it?
I don’t understand the panic over getting this trial over with yesterday. It has started! The locomotive is rolling down the track, aimed straight at TFG, and there is very little that could stop it now. It will be over in a few weeks, LONG before the election. What more could you ask for? Having him in prison before the election? There was never any chance that this or any of his trials would accomplish that — even if he’s convicted, the appeals will take a year or so. Getting this trial over with a few days or a week earlier will change none of that.
TBone
@prostratedragon: excellent *rubs hands together, grinning
oldgold
@Frankensteinbeck:
Then, the trial should not have been started this week.
I repeat, my position is that once a jury trail starts, it should proceed at a good clip with as few delays and interruptions as possible. The first 3 days of this trial do not suggest this is going to be the case.
Ishiyama
As a trial attorney, one spends long nights trying to find the key phrase or image that captures the essence of your argument. Something simple and catchy, e.g. “Donnie didn’t do it!”
Frankensteinbeck
@prostratedragon:
I’m flashing back to his deposition in the rape/defamation case. He could not resist bragging that he was famous enough to commit rape and get away with it.
Ken
I think this is rapidly moving into that special category where everyone believes it, and it doesn’t really matter if it’s true or not. Sort of like hunchbacked Richard III murdering the two princes in the tower.
TBone
@LAO: every single attorney I know absolutely abhors going to trial and will go to great lengths to settle or plead down, resulting in shorter fighting time. It’s never a good day to be on the assist when court is going on. Tempers flare, stress and tension explode all over the office.
Leto
@prostratedragon: from his lips to the wardens ears…
cmorenc
@LAO: I do not know what the actual sentence was, but it would have been very difficult for the prosecution or judge to have justified enhancing the defendant’s sentence on the one count we found him guilty of, based on our finding him “not guilty” of the seventeen other counts, many of which were similar kind of offense, but on completely distinctly separate occasions. IIRC the max the judge could have sentenced the defendant to on the one count we found him guilty of was 5 years, and I seriously doubt he got more than several months.
Frankensteinbeck
@oldgold:
Okay, but this seems like kind of an obscure argument. Who cares? It’s not being made on principle that Trump’s case should be made faster, if you approve a delay to starting. You’re in the realm of arguing about whether standard court practices are efficient. That seems esoteric, and subject to issues of practicality laymen can only guess at.
TBone
@Ishiyama: I believe one of Todd’s first sentences was “Dotard has not committed any crime.”
😂🤣
Belafon
@oldgold: “Don’t delay it, unless I say you should delay it.”
Just let the courts do their work.
Trivia Man
I’ve read some of mark sumner’s sci fi books, i enjoyed them.
Cant recall the names offhand.
hueyplong
This is likely a minority opinion, but I hope this trial drags, because it’s sort of like incarceration for Trump. The longer the better. It’s tough on jurors in a way, but on the other hand they’ll get to watch Trump deteriorate.
So long as I had some kind of smelling salt-like substance I could rub under my nostrils so as to handle the repeated diaper loadings, I wouldn’t mind being one of the 18 to watch him fade away, especially if it were in the status of alternate.
smith
@oldgold: If it had been scheduled to start after Passover, it would have been delayed at least a week instead of the approx 6 hours that are lost this way. If it had started before Passover, it still would have been delayed by those same 6 hours when Passover started.
oldgold
@smith: I am not arguing, in this particular instance, about the start date. What I am arguing is that undue delays and interruptions in jury trials are to be avoided. They ef-up the process.
I am surprised this is such a controversial position.
TBone
@hueyplong: Vicks Vapo Rub
LAO
@cmorenc: I hope that you’re right but the standard at sentencing is a simple preponderance of evidence. So, all it requires is that the judge finds it more likely than not that the defendant committed the acquitted conduct.
This April, the US Sentencing Commission voted unanimously to end the practice of using acquitted conduct in calculating a defendant’s sentencing guidelines. So, progress!
TBone
@oldgold: Gene Wilder .gif
“Good day, Sir!”
zhena gogolia
@Frankensteinbeck: Whenever Michael Moriarty or Sam Waterston or Jill Hennessy gets in the courtroom, it goes really fast. Like 20 minutes.
Martin
@oldgold: Understand that in NYC, all Jewish holidays are recognized – all of them. Everyone learns the holidays because alternate side of the street parking is suspended on holidays and if you move your car on Tisha B’Av, you’re going to get ticketed.
So they’re going to have an abbreviated schedule this week. That’s just a given.
Leto
@TBone: if you’re gonna lie, might as well make it a whopper.
LAO
@oldgold: I don’t find your position to be controversial just premature. While I understand your frustration, I disagree with you about the pace of trial to date. Did you believe a jury would be enplaned is 2/12 days? I thought it would take 2 weeks. I can’t help but feel that things are actually moving.
ETA: should read empaneled. I really hate commenting with my phone.
Frankensteinbeck
@oldgold:
I think it seems like such a technical issue that no one was expecting and few people have arguments about it. Certainly I assumed that your point was speed of trying Trump. I’d have to leave the issue to experts, because no one not deeply immersed in the realities of court is going to have a knowledge base to handle it.
It’s the kind of topic where on-the-ground realities usually make the theoretically appealing practically unwise? Who actually knows? Only the people who work there regularly.
LAO
@zhena gogolia: Law & Order has a lot to answer for. lol
Quinerly
@LAO: spoken like a true trial atty who has spent a lot of time in courthouses.
I would guess that during my first 10 years of practiceI I spent more of my 8-5 time in courthouses than in my office. Granted, more motion practice than actual jury trials. You still learn a lot about how dockets go, how trials are delayed, etc.
cmorenc
One unearned benefit for we BJers of the Wednesday break in Trump’s NYC trial is that we can focus on SCOTUS arguments on the immunity issue, which is scheduled for Wednesday.
Quinerly
@LAO:
I am surprised how quickly the jury was picked. I had several informal bets going. I was betting over 2 weeks to pick the jury.
Quinerly
@hueyplong:
TOTALLY AGREE.
moops
Don’t you need to provide a respectable reason to file an appeal? How is it just assumed that Trump is able to appeal any decision he doesn’t like? Trump losing a trial is not sufficient reason to grant him an appeal. Why are there never any discussions about the merits of an appeal?
LAO
@Quinerly: I was and remain totally shocked at the speed of the jury selection. I once took a week to pick a jury on a run of the mill assault case. This was crazy fast.
Quinerly
@prostratedragon:
Yep. Just came in from the yard. Heard a clip of his rant.
oldgold
@Quinerly: You “TOTALLY AGREE” with the proposition that the trial process used to determine if a defendant is guilty of the crime charged should be used to punish the defendant?
Remarkable.
Trivia Man
@Quinerly: I am hopeful that an ethical attorney will be a positive in the jury room. If defense tries a Chewbacca defense some help n the deliberation room can easily blow away the smoke. I bet defense goes heavy on “NBD, all rich people do this and if you dont understand its because you aren’t rich. Besides, ‘legal services’ can mean ‘anything a lawyer does for me.’ A lawyer can explain the truth.
LAO
@moops: No. All criminal defendants have a right of appeal to the intermediate appellate court regardless of the merits.
Here, it would be to the Appellate Division, First Department. To take an appeal to the NY Court of Appeals requires permission.
Jesse
I honestly didn’t even know about an election interference case in NY. I thought it was GA suing Trump for election interference.
Citizen Alan
@Martin: I remember being flummoxed at St. John’s (a Catholic school) when we got off for Jewish holidays. Not that I was complaining.
Eolirin
@Jesse: The media is referring to it as the hush money case.
Ruckus
@WaterGirl:
I imagine that in some places, NYC possibly being one, that excluding attorneys limits the jury pool numbers in a not unnoticeable way. Some parts of LA are/can be like that. I long ago lived in a not all that large an apartment building and 3 of my neighbors were young lawyers.
Martin
I never understood why Michael Cohen recorded his conversation with Trump regarding payment – I guess I just missed that before. But it was because Trump would routinely stiff AMI and in order for AMI to go along with this plan, they wanted assurances that Trump would pay – so Cohen recorded Trump agreeing to pay to assuage AMI.
LAO
@Jesse: The prosecution is framing this case as an election interference case re: 2016. I’m not saying that they are correct but it was the theme of their opening statement. Georgia is about 2020.
Ruckus
@Anonymous At Work:
IANAL but I’ve served jury duty 3 times. I’ve been on 3 juries. It was interesting and if I never have to do it again Hallefuckinglujah.
Quinerly
@oldgold:
What is your gripe? It looks like every practicing atty in this thread disagrees with you. The jury selection went faster than anybody could have dreamed. There’s a holiday, a juror who has to see a dentist, a hearing scheduled tomorrow AM, and it is not unusual to have a 4 day week trial schedule. Most of us have spoken of our experiences and where we have practiced. Where are you that it is so different?
I totally agree with the commenter about the more the trial drags on the more Trump will deteriorate. More chance he will lose it in court. More chance he will dig a deeper hole with these little press conferences. Anything he says outside that courthouse can be introduced as evidence.
I think you are just looking for an argument. I have seen you do this in other threads. It’s obnoxious. There…..I said it.
Martin
@LAO: It’s always been an election interference case. Why the media cast it as the hush money case is more an illustration of why they are so fucking useless.
Leto
@Trivia Man: is the Chewbacca defense where the defense attorney threatens to rip off the arms of the foreman, but recommends instead: “Let the defendant win” ?
Is that followed by the Dodgeball commentary? “Bold strategy Cotton, let’s see how it plays out.”
Leto
@Quinerly: personally what I see is an old dude yelling at the women in this thread, demanding experience of practice, being super argumentative, refusing to admit that maybe they’re wrong about things. Again that’s just me, but that’s the optics here.
WaterGirl
@Martin:
Say it again, Martin.
Quinerly
@Leto:
You called it.
LAO
@Martin: That’s fair
Ruckus
@Quinerly:
I think that any actual adult is going to fully understand that SFB is not only wrong 99.9% of the time but lies, cheats and fully believes that he is the second coming – not in a religious way, in a “I am the best human being to ever live!” way. He’s not even close. If we put up a line, (as they used to say in the Navy) nuts to butts, of all the adult males in this country, best to worst, he’d be in the last 5%. And possibly farther back.
rikyrah
@Martin:
clap clap clap
hueyplong
@Quinerly: You underestimate the lonely struggle involved in being the only person who’s right on the Internet. Snark and condescension are at times the only weapons available to fend off psychic harm when the pack attacks the lonely seer of truth. It’s all so unfair.
Quinerly
@hueyplong: ❤️
Trivia Man
@Leto: why would a Wookie live on Endor with the much smaller Ewoks? That makes no sense! And if you agree that makes no sense, YOU MUST ACQUIT!
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chewbacca_defense
Leto
@Trivia Man: I can sing the “Stinky Britches” song, but totally forgot about that part. Lawdy!
Quinerly
Interesting piece.
https://www.salon.com/2024/04/22/the-alternate-reality-lives-in-is-crumbling-with-first-criminal-trial-ex-prosecutor/
LAO
https://ww2.nycourts.gov/press/index.shtml
Daily transcripts will be available to the public as part of the docket at the above link. There will be a delay though (about 24 hrs, ie end of business following day).
it’s pretty extraordinary for NY
Another Scott
@LAO: 👍
Thanks.
Cheers,
Scott.
WaterGirl
@LAO: Great find!
Adding the link up top.
Jesse
@Eolirin: ah, ok. I knew the trial under discussion by that label. Thanks 👍
UncleEbeneezer
@Martin: It really is both a hush money and an election interference case. Take out the hush money crime and there would be no felony trial taking place. Look at the words of the indictment:
“The People of the State of New York allege that Donald J. Trump repeatedly and fraudulently falsified New York business records to conceal crimes that hid damaging information from the voting public during the 2016 presidential election,”
Trump is charged with 34 counts of Falsifying Business Records. If he is convicted he will be sentenced based on guidelines for that crime, not for election interference. The fact that he did it with the goal of election interference enhances the charges, moving them up to a felony, but Trump isn’t actually being charged with breaking an election interference statute.
So is it a hush money case? Yes. Is it a falsifying business documents case? Yes. Is it an election interference case? Also, yes. It’s really all three, due to the unusual structure of NY law. But it’s silly to scold people who call it a hush money case. It is. It’s not ONLY a hush money trial, but it definitely is one.
oldgold
@Leto: I have no idea if the people who have challenged me on my opinion are men or women. To accuse me of “yelling at women” is much less than above reproach.
I have yelled at no one. I have answered those who have challenged my position. And, in doing so, have not engaged in calling anyone “clueless”, “obnoxious” or the like.
What I have held to is my original position that once jury trials start they should proceed with dispatch and that delays and interruptions should be avoided whenever possible.
Chris T.
@Quinerly:
Do you ever wish that, after the lawyers say “move to strike” and the judge says “granted”, the attorney would go over and whack the person over the head?
Miss Bianca
@oldgold: And maybe, just maybe, there are instances where the dispatch you are demanding JUST ISN’T POSSIBLE, for whatever reason, and you have been provided with a number of reasons why in this particular instance it hasn’t been possible.
So maybe, after the third or fourth time that’s been pointed out to you, you can just pick up the shattered pieces of your life and
shut up alreadymove on.oldgold
@Miss Bianca: “Pick up the shattered pieces of my life and
shut up alreadymove on.”Really? I can assure you my life has not been shattered by this discussion. Nor, am I inclined to “shut up already.”
And, despite it having been explained to me that it “JUST ISN’T POSSIBLE” to move this just trial with greater dispatch, I do not agree with that. And, generally speaking, yelling it will not make me more likely to do so.
Layer8Problem
@Miss Bianca: “Oh of course it’s possible, why, Joe Biden could turbocharge this New York trial with a stroke of his pen, BUT HE DOESN’T DO IT! What’s that about, eh?? Dammit everybody, am I the only person in the WHOLE INTERNET who can see that THEY’RE ALL DOING IT WRONG?!?”
Quinerly
@Miss Bianca:
Thanks for my afternoon laugh. I did startle JoJo las Orejas and wake him from his nap, though.
WaterGirl
@UncleEbeneezer: It matters, though, because it’s easier for people to dismiss a hush money case and say “no big deal”.
Villago Delenda Est
@LAO: Particularly the street scenes in which Briscoe and Logan/Green/Curtis always can find a parking space right in front of the building they need to access. Utter fantasy.
wjca
It is perhaps unfair of me. But you put me in mind of one of my fellow jurors, the last time I was on a jury.
He was basically outraged that there hadn’t been some kind of plea deal, so he wouldn’t have to serve. In the event, the other 11 of us were of the opinion that the defendant was not guilty. (The main prosecution witness, and victim, was simply not credible. As in, his story of how things happened could not be reconciled with the physical evidence.) But this guy only decided to change his opinion from guilty (“if he was arrested, he must be giilty of something“) because the alternative to changing his vote to not guilty was to return for another day of deliberation. And he hated being there — the facts of the case were not even a passing consideration for him.
Things Take Time. Schedules in the real world have to contend with other things happening in the real world. Irritating sometimes. Infuriating even. But that’s just reality.
WaterGirl
@wjca: What a dick that guy was. Holding someone’s life in his hands, and none of that matters to him. Fuck that guy. :-)
Odie Hugh Manatee
@oldgold:
While fast may be good for you, I think that slow is just fine. It’s like he’s being slowly fed feet first into a chipper that frequently comes to a stop, leaving him in agony knowing that it will be starting back up to finish the job.
I know that he’s going through what he thinks is hell and that puts a smile on my face. No matter how much he flails about, stopping this is out of his control.
Enjoy the ride, we’ll get there soon enough.
Melancholy Jaques
@TBone:
I’ve done only three criminal jury trials (2 & 1!), but I’ve done quite a few civil jury trials. My feeling is that the jurors’ decisions start forming during voir dire. That’s when they find out what kind of case it is, what the basic issues are, etc. But maybe more important, it is when they get a sense of who the attorneys are, whether they can trust them, and the like. A lot of human decision making is quick and irrational, then as the evidence comes in, they look for evidence to justify their decision. Cf. Job interviews.
Melancholy Jaques
@LAO:
Also normal for California. The term is dark. Courtrooms are dark one day a week.
oldgold
Yes, it is unfair. Your fellow jurors position has nothing to do with what I am opining about.
oldgold
@Odie Hugh Manatee: “I think that slow is just fine. It’s like he’s being slowly fed feet first into a chipper that frequently comes to a stop, leaving him in agony.”
I very much disagree with this.
The process used to determine if a defendant is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt of the crime charged should never be used to punish the defendant.
I am at a loss as to how anyone could in good faith argue otherwise.
Ruckus
@Frankensteinbeck:
I’ve been a juror a few times and have been on a criminal trial that lasted for a week and the deliberation, which took if I remember 3 or 4 days. (It’s been some years ago) I was amazed that we came to a conclusion as fast as we did. There were 4 or 5 fairly significant differences of opinion. The different takes by jurors sort of amazed me – but then we aren’t all the same or have the same opinions or experiences.
Ruckus
@Quinerly:
When I’ve done jury duty here in LA county all attorneys were excused. I’ve also served when I lived in OH but that was a while ago and that memory is faint.