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You are here: Home / Elections 2024 / Friday Evening Open Thread: Trump’s “Lead Balloon” Outreach to Arab-Americans

Friday Evening Open Thread: Trump’s “Lead Balloon” Outreach to Arab-Americans

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Tire rims and anthrax, anybody? Per Notus, “‘Like a Lead Balloon’: Trump’s ‘Shadow Secretary of State’ Meets With Arab American Leaders”:

As Arab Americans hold back their support from President Joe Biden until he changes course on the Israel-Gaza war, Donald Trump’s “shadow secretary of state” — Ric Grenell — met with Arab American leaders Tuesday night to try to convince them that the former president is a viable option for their community come November…

The meeting — which took place at chain Italian restaurant Maggiano’s in Troy, Michigan — featured about 40 Arab American leaders, Grenell, Trump’s son-in-law Michael Boulos, and Boulos’ father, Massad Boulos. According to two sources in attendance for the private dinner, Grenell came off as unsympathetic to the plight of Palestinians while actually angering some participants by reiterating a comment from Trump’s other son-in-law, Jared Kushner, who said in March that Israel should remove Palestinians from the valuable “waterfront property” in Gaza.

“He repeated Jared Kushner’s statement about beachfront property, which I think floated like a lead balloon in the room,” one of the meeting’s participants said of Grenell, who was Trump’s former acting director of national intelligence.

Another participant in the meeting stressed that Grenell kept saying how “brilliant” Trump was with his handling of the Abraham Accords, which were agreements Israel signed with certain Arab countries in 2020. But this person also mentioned that Kushner’s comments about turning Gaza’s waterfront property into world-class beaches fell flat…

Both attendees who spoke to NOTUS said Arab American leaders told Grenell they had three conditions for supporting Trump in November: his support for an immediate cease-fire, funding for the United Nations Relief and Works Agency — which has been the primary provider of humanitarian aid in Gaza — and a commitment to enact the so-called Leahy Laws in Gaza. (The Leahy Laws, written by former Sen. Pat Leahy of Vermont, prohibit the United States from funding foreign militaries that violate human rights.)

The sources agreed that the purpose of the meeting was for Grenell to lay out the case why Arab Americans should vote for Trump. However, both agreed that most participants left unsatisfied…

The sources said Arab American leaders didn’t leave entirely empty-handed, however. Grenell “promised” leaders that Trump wouldn’t enact a “Muslim ban,” as he called for in 2016, according to these sources.

And one thing everybody knows about TFG — his word is his bond!

Offering not a silk purse, but a sow’s ear, which is haram — “Trump allies face skepticism as they try appealing to disaffected Arab Americans in Michigan”:

… Richard Grenell, Trump’s former ambassador to Germany, repeatedly pointed to Trump’s governing record and said that other countries’ fear of him decreased global conflict. But two people in the room said Grenell didn’t provide the specific policy changes they were hoping to hear, which left at least one leader dissatisfied and unswayed.

The nearly two-hour meeting marked the beginning of increased outreach by Trump allies in swing state Michigan, where key parts of Biden’s coalition are angry with him over Israel’s offensive following Hamas’ Oct. 7 attack. But any apparent political opportunity for Trump may be limited by criticism from many Arab Americans about the former president’s ban on immigration from several majority Muslim countries and remarks they felt were insulting.

“We appreciate the outreach,” said Khaled Saffuri, an Arab American political activist who was in attendance Tuesday night. “But it won’t be easy to convince the community to switch from Biden to Trump, because even though we are angry with Biden, many still have a bad taste in their mouth from the four years of Trump.”…

The nearly 40 Arab American activists in attendance came from across the country. Some already support Trump while others were attending to hear directly from his surrogates, according to Yahya Basha, a Michigan doctor in attendance.

“I think most people were there to hear what specific policy changes Trump would have. It was a lot of back and forth with questions,” said Basha, who left the meeting still uncommitted to any candidate in November…

Massad Boulos, Tiffany Trump’s father-in-law, said he gave a speech sharing his experiences as an immigrant and how they shaped his conservative values. He also highlighted a more personal side of Trump, emphasizing his “love and admiration for the Middle East in general,” according to Boulos.

“And then we discussed the need to organize ourselves and get ready for November and to mobilize our respective communities,” Boulos said in an interview…

(Tiffany finally got Daddy’s attention, by marrying a real billionaire’s kid.)

Captain Obvious is… not wrong:

Reader Interactions

166Comments

  1. 1.

    Baud

    Republicans are clearly pursuing the pro-Israel crowd. Maybe if they can get the pro-Palestinian crowd too, we can see who guessed right.

  2. 2.

    catclub

    sab had a very bad vanguard story and now I have an idea:
    As executor, open an estate account at a different service such as Fidelity.
    Then demand via Fidelity that all assets be transferred to Fidelity from Vanguard.
    This way Fidelity will have your back.

    If anyone know sab’s email address, please let them know.

    Good luck.

  3. 3.

    Anonymous At Work

    Can we start with Arab-Americans, many being Muslim and at least trying to keep halal, heading to a non-halal chain ITALIAN restaurant, where pork and shellfish occupy a significant portion of the menu?

    Does Troy, Michigan lack any alternatives???

  5. 5.

    Nukular Biskits

    I can understand Arab-American dissatisfaction with the Biden Administration not condemning what is apparent to the rest of the world:  The Israeli government, via the IDF, is conducting what is for all practical purposes, war crimes.

    But … it baffles me that any would even consider voting for Trump.

    Whiskey.

    Tango.

    Foxtrot.

    Over?

  7. 7.

    comrade scotts agenda of rage

    @Baud:

    Trump got about 30 percent of them in 2020.

    The Crazification Factor!  More or less.

  8. 8.

    Geminid

    Richard Grenell did not think his pitch through. Instead of luxury seaside villas, he could have talked up employment in Gaza IT ventures. There actually were some tech startups in the Strip before this war began, and they’ll come back. But a lot of people have seen Palestinians as perpetual victims for so long they can’t see them otherwise. Grenell seems to share this point of view, and I think his audience could tell.

  10. 10.

    Nukular Biskits

    @Baud:

    “pro-Israel crowd” requires quite a bit of context.

    Trump’s evangelical supporters, for example, are only “supporting” Israel as a means to an end:  To bring about the End Times where all Jews (and pretty much everyone else “not worthy”) will be destroyed.

  13. 13.

    Baud

    @Nukular Biskits:

    Not really. The motivation is irrelevant. The evangelicals support Israel in this war and think Biden is to hard on them. So do many Jews.  The GOP already has the evangelicals but would love to get more Jewish voters to switch.

  16. 16.

    twbrandt

    @Anonymous At Work: it’s not like Dearborn, where the vast majority of Arab-Americans live in Michigan, has a dearth of halal restaurants. I live in Dearborn, and even the Thai, Chinese, and Mexican restaurants advertise they are halal.

  18. 18.

    Nukular Biskits

    @Baud:

    Small business owners who hate taxes. Cultural conservatives. Social connections. Etc.

    True. Cue the ol’ saying about it takes all kinds to make the world go ’round.

  19. 19.

    twbrandt

    @Nukular Biskits: many conservative Muslims are upset with Democratic support of LGBTQ+ rights. This became a big issue locally in Dearborn and Hamtramck, two cities with large Muslim populations.

  20. 20.

    Geminid

    @Princess: The pitch probably was not just to Christian Arab Americans, or at least not intentionally. There aren’t enough of them; Trump needs to make inroads among the larger Muslim Arab Americans population to turn the Michigan election.

  21. 21.

    Baud

    @twbrandt:

    That’s not new though. We’ve been supporting LGBT for at least a decade, or more. Unless trans made things different.

  23. 23.

    Michael Bersin

    @Baud:

    I’m certain there are a sufficient number of not yet and probably never millionaires who will vote accordingly in 2024 in anticipation of their promised disproportionate tax cuts.

  25. 25.

    lowtechcyclist

    @Nukular Biskits:

    “pro-Israel crowd” requires quite a bit of context.

    Trump’s evangelical supporters, for example, are only “supporting” Israel as a means to an end:  To bring about the End Times where all Jews (and pretty much everyone else “not worthy”) will be destroyed.

    That is true.  They’re pro-Israel until the End Times.  But that’s functionally equivalent to being pro-Israel, period.

    Doesn’t mean they’re not anti-Semitic with respect to Jews elsewhere in the world, including here in the U.S.A. But they want the U.S. to back Israel to the hilt.

  26. 26.

    Nukular Biskits

    @twbrandt:

    It strikes me as being really hypocritical that members of one minority group would oppose equal rights and equal treatment under the law of another.

    But American history is replete with cases like that.

  27. 27.

    Martin

    @Nukular Biskits: Knocking doors in my area we have a lot of Taiwanese immigrants and periodically you get the ones that in 1979 made the decision that they would never ever vote Democratic ever again after Carter put forward the One China policy. I’ve tried to talk these voters and convince them of Biden vs Trump policies and it bounces off hard. They made their decision. They’ll die on that hill.

    A lot of voters are that way about a lot of issues.

  29. 29.

    Geminid

    @Nukular Biskits: I operate under the assumption that a member of a minority has every bit as much right to be a bigot as a white man like me. I won’t even say they have less reason to be, because there is no good reason to be a bigot.

  30. 30.

    Baud

    @Martin:

    If Trump wins and he loses Taiwan to China, that’ll show them.*

    * Of all the bad things that would happen with Trump, I put this fairly low on the list. But you never know what he’ll do for a trademark.

  31. 31.

    Anonymous At Work

    @twbrandt: Just seems like Maggiano’s (while a great chain Italian place) is the second-worst idea behind a pork BBQ joint.  Like Grenell either purposefully got the best meal possible for 40 people from the situation or was so ignorant that the insult was unintentional.

  34. 34.

    lowtechcyclist

    @Martin:

    Knocking doors in my area we have a lot of Taiwanese immigrants and periodically you get the ones that in 1979 made the decision that they would never ever vote Democratic ever again after Carter put forward the One China policy. I’ve tried to talk these voters and convince them of Biden vs Trump policies and it bounces off hard. They made their decision. They’ll die on that hill.

    A lot of voters are that way about a lot of issues.

    I’m not saying you’re wrong, in fact I’m sure you’re right.

    But damn, 1979 was a loooooong time ago, and the world and our politics have been through changes upon changes since.  I just can’t imagine being tied into a POV based on something that happened that far back, no matter what’s happened since.

  36. 36.

    lowtechcyclist

    @Baud:

    If Trump wins and he loses Taiwan to China, that’ll show them.+*

    * Of all the bad things that would happen with Trump, I put this fairly low on the list. But you never know what he’ll do for a trademark.

    It wouldn’t surprise me at all for Trump to just not give a damn about Taiwan, and leave the Taiwanese more or less on their own with respect to defense.  And if that means China conquers Taiwan, well, :shrug: from Trump.  “America First,” and all that.

  37. 37.

    Nukular Biskits

    @Martin:

    That’s another thing I’ve never understood:  Single-issue voters.

    In this country, you indeed have the right to vote for … or against … any candidate or any issue for any reason at all or no reason whatsoever.  But it strikes me as being beyond stupid to not weigh the pros/cons of those candidates/issues and vote in a holistic manner for the best outcome.

  40. 40.

    tcbleu

    Troy? What, all of Dearborn was booked?

    It’s even very close to the DTW which would have been convenient for all the out of town folks coming for this meeting.

    What a maroon.

  41. 41.

    Baud

    @lowtechcyclist:

    Trump doesn’t care about Taiwan because he doesn’t care about anything except himself. But I think he sees it to his benefit to be “tough on China.”

  42. 42.

    Gin & Tonic

    @Anonymous At Work: ​
    There’s a probably-apocryphal story about NYC’s uber-WASP 1960’s Mayor, John Lindsay, on the campaign trail, going to a Jewish deli and ordering a ham sandwich and a glass of milk. I think an aide may have stepped in at that point.

  43. 43.

    Baud

    Liberals don’t like to see themselves as second class citizens (which is why we’re so fractous), so we have difficulty understanding people who will take a secondary position in the social hierarchy in order to be given someone else to punch down on.

  44. 44.

    Michael Bersin

    @Nukular Biskits:

    “…vote in a holistic manner for the best outcome.”

    Exceptions in Missouri (your mileage may vary):

    1. republicans/Fascist pigs [same difference]

    2. Women’s reproductive rights

    3. Open season on school children

  45. 45.

    Nukular Biskits

    @Baud:

    Agreed that the only thing important to Trump is Trump, but I don’t follow you with respect to Trump “being tough on China” by all but abandoning Taiwan.

    It’s been a long day so maybe I should get something to eat.

  46. 46.

    Martin

    @lowtechcyclist: I mean, the whole concept of Israel was for it’s first half century or so an explicitly antisemitic idea. The brits who backed it saw it as a way to get Jews out of the UK. That was broadly true for the idea even outside of the UK, and some scholars have argued contributed to the Holocaust itself after decades of floating this idea that there should be some other place that Jews should live that isn’t here.

    I’m not convinced that Germany needed any new arguments, but they did borrow pretty heavily from US Jim Crow, etc. so it certainly didn’t help matters. Even after the war, the US and Europe weren’t exactly jumping at the need to give Jews equal rights, to put down antisemitism. Israel allowed everyone to duck needed domestic policies.

    You don’t really even need the rapture bullshit included. It was well understood long before Israel got traction as an idea that the idea would face stiff resistance from the people living in the region (including many of the Jews living in the region). Nobody was under any illusions of the amount of conflict and suppression needed for this kind of colonization, and the idea of giving Jews a border to defend knowing it’d be damn hard to defend was an appealing idea to tie up Jews and Muslims in a conflict that would keep both parties busy. Evangelicals side with Israel but only in the settlements, really. Their main interest seems to be in keeping that conflict going and keeping American Jews relocating to the West Bank.

    I’ve wondered if part of Israels intransigence on matters is because they know this arrangement was never expected to be peaceful. They’re doing the thing they were sent there to do and Hamas is doing the thing they were expected to do when the borders were established. That some of us have changed our mind isn’t their problem.

  47. 47.

    Another Scott

    @lowtechcyclist:

    Cue the Who Lost China? Debate:

    McCarthy and his Republican Senate colleagues, Richard Nixon and Barry Goldwater, used their anti-communist crusade as an effective wedge issue by challenging the Truman administration’s Korean War strategy and their failure to save China from the communists [ in 1949 ]. Truman’s Secretary of State Dean Acheson organized one notable attempt to answer the administration’s critics. Acheson instructed his department to compile a detailed history of US policy toward China. Totaling over one thousand pages, the China White Paper, as it came to be known, was an attempt to educate the public on why the communists won China. Many mocked Acheson’s efforts as an elaborate attempt to cover up administrative malfeasance. Columnist Joseph Alsop captured the attitude of Acheson’s critics, saying; “If you have kicked a drowning friend briskly in the face as he sank for the second and third times, you cannot later explain that he was doomed anyway because he was such a bad swimmer.”

    There were Americans who saw it differently. In an editorial answering the Truman administration’s critics, the Washington Post questioned the idea “that China was a sort of political dependency of the United States to be retained or given away to Moscow by a single administrative decision taken in Washington. It was not. China was—and still is—a vast continental land, diverse and disunited, peopled by some half a billion human beings—most of them living at a level of bare subsistence, immemorially exploited by landlords and harassed by warlords, in the throes of revolutionary pressures and counter-pressures that have been felt the world over. The United States has never at any time been in a position to exercise more than a minor influence on China’s destiny. China was lost by the Chinese.”

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  50. 50.

    lowtechcyclist

    @Nukular Biskits:

    I think Baud is saying that while Trump doesn’t give a damn about Taiwan, he sees an advantage in being tough on China, and that may well include standing up to them over Taiwan.

  51. 51.

    Bill Arnold

    @lowtechcyclist:

    But that’s functionally equivalent to being pro-Israel, period.

    For those who engage in “applied eschatology”, no, that is not functionally equivalent. E.g. increasing the probability of (thermo)nuclear warfare which includes the nuclear destruction of Israel is a means towards the end-times.

  53. 53.

    JoyceH

    But but but… why is the beachfront property remark so offensive? Kushner was only inviting the Palestinians of Gaza to visualize their golden future – as servants in the glitzy resorts and casinos that would be patronized by rich white foreigners. Hey, I’ll bet the tips would be great!

  54. 54.

    Geminid

    @Anotherlurker: Talk about holding grudges: when the Gaza war broke out, most Turks seemed to take Palestinian side. But I saw some Turks posting video of Ottoman troops being led off to captivity by the British in the First World War, with the admonition, “Never forget how the Arabs took English gold and stabbed us in the back!” That happened over a hundred years ago.

  55. 55.

    smith

    @lowtechcyclist:   I just can’t imagine being tied into a POV based on something that happened that far back,

    Southern rednecks voted D and Northern Blacks voted R from the end of the Civil War right up to the Civil Rights Act, and a bit beyond.

  56. 56.

    Baud

    @Nukular Biskits:

    Worse than single issue voters, to me, are voters who find a different single issue each election for why they can’t vote blue.

    I can, for example, respect single issue pro-choice voters. That’s an extremely serious issue of freedom, dignity, and personal health.

  57. 57.

    Nukular Biskits

    @lowtechcyclist: @Baud:

    Given Trump’s willingness to throw Ukraine and the rest of Europe under the Russian bus, I wouldn’t be willing to bet he’d stand up to China over Taiwan.

    Unless, of course, he could negotiate some more sweet, sweet Chinese trademarks for his daughter’s merch.

  58. 58.

    Martin

    @Baud: I think that’s less and less true. I think the left rejects more and more of the hierarchy and sees the people willing to take a secondary position as a traitor. In a lot of ways Thomas is seen worse than Alito, because Thomas understands the dynamic and chooses the secondary position for selfish benefit, where Alito is just maintaining his primary position, which is his default behavior.

    The left isn’t terribly consistent on this point, but there is a steady trend toward that outcome at least since 2008. It’s not that we don’t understand it, it’s that they should be fighting but choose to be selfish cowards instead. See also white republican women who would rather agree to be at the bottom of the upper class for free than risk being somewhere in the middle with effort.

  60. 60.

    Princess

    @Geminid:

    I’m trying to find reliable stats but one source I read claimed that 58% of metro Detroit Arabs are Christian and 42% are Muslim. Many Assyrians, Lebanese Christians, Chaldean Catholics, Copts etc. Most Arabs in Dearborn are Muslim however.

  61. 61.

    lowtechcyclist

    @Martin:

    I’ve wondered if part of Israels intransigence on matters is because they know this arrangement was never expected to be peaceful.

    But it’s been getting progressively more peaceful for them.  I remember the 1967 war, when Israel was attacked by Egypt, Jordan, and Syria.  Today, Egypt and Jordan recognize Israel, and Syria’s not going to attack Israel on its own, especially not while Israel continues to hold the Golan Heights. Meanwhile, most of the Arab nations are coming around to accept Israel’s existence.  The likelihood of a foreign army trying to conquer Israeli territory – one of their ongoing justifications for holding onto the West Bank – is minuscule.  There’s no existential threat to Israel anymore, just the potential of terrorist attacks, which they’re capable of limiting when they choose.

    The nation that is Israel’s worst enemy and greatest danger to their security is Israel.

  62. 62.

    Baud

    @Geminid:

    A 75 year old was 10 years old in 1959. His 75 year old grandfather was 10 years old in 1894.  We’re two generations distant from a wholly different world, but memories and values from that time can easily have passed down through those two people.  It’s why change is hard.

  64. 64.

    lowtechcyclist

    @Bill Arnold:

    For those who engage in “applied eschatology”, no, that is not functionally equivalent. E.g. increasing the probability of (thermo)nuclear warfare which includes the nuclear destruction of Israel is a means towards the end-times.

    How can Israel rebuild the Temple if they’ve been nuked out of existence?  A nuclear war might be the ‘end times’ for most of the world, but it would not be the End Times as evangelicals and all would define it.

  65. 65.

    Baud

    @Martin:

    I agree there’s improved appreciation of the dynamic since 2008.  I still think there’s a ways to go in that front.

  66. 66.

    Martin

    @Baud: One of the things that I think Democrats have a huge blind spot on is the desire for radical change. If you look at a situation like Ukraine that looks kind of dire, the Democrats can either guarantee you a slow, grinding loss, or you could take the chaos agent and maybe get a win.

    For a lot of voters that are pretty despondent about housing, or drug problems, or their industry dying – Democrats are really clear about having policies that won’t really help them. Republicans have no policies, and will do random shit for random reasons. You have a choice between a party you know won’t do enough to help because they’re too afraid, and a party that might make things worse but also might make them better.

    If you think the status quo needs to change, the Democrats aren’t your party, even if you think it needs to change to the left. You’re really betting on catastrophe to shake everyone out of their lane, and Trump is your best bet on that one.

  67. 67.

    Princess

    @Baud: A lot of Arab Muslims in different countries have made it hard to impossible for the Arab Christians in their midst to live their lives, and the ones who could have emigrated. Same, of course, for the Jews. There were once thriving Jewish communities in all the Arab countries.

  68. 68.

    Nukular Biskits

    @Baud:

    Do you really think that, setting aside what Trump would or would not due, that the GOP would support US assistance to Taiwan?

    What I see in the Twitter replies to my senior US Senator, Roger Wicker, who is VERY hawkish, is demands to end any/all support for pretty much anyone but Israel.

    But, of course, you have to take those replies with a grain of salt as I’m sure a lot of them are ‘bots or trolls.

    ETA:  Forgive the horrible grammar, etc.  I did too much outside work today and there is an early bedtime in my near future.

  69. 69.

    Baud

    @Martin:

    I think the opposite. People who want radical change don’t realize how much of a minority they are. The vast majority of people are resistant to change.

    ETA: I don’t disagree that some people convince themselves to do evil things by telling themselves it’s for the greater good.

  70. 70.

    YY_Sima Qian

    If these Arab-American leaders sincerely thought Trump might be an option, they are delusional. However, I suspect that this is posturing for the Biden Administration. Their only leverage is threatening to walk during the election, & that leverage only has credibility if they actually make a show of flirting w/ the other side.

    OTOH, if these Arab-American leaders were traditionally GOP supporters alienated from the modern incarnation, that would be different.

  71. 71.

    Martin

    @Nukular Biskits: A lot of these people are incapable of taking a nuanced view about very much. Living in a world dominated by good and evil means that once you drop the evil label on a party, there’s not much point caring about anything else. Evil is evil.

  72. 72.

    Nelle

    @Martin: Reminds me of stories my husband has told.  Postwar, he grew up  in LA in a family that has no religious or even cultural observances of Judaism (his father, yes, Jewish, was left in a Masonic orphange at age 6 and had a strong revulsion towards religion).  But still, especially in grade school (late 40’s, early 50’s) my husband was taunted as “Jew boy, Jew boy” and the target of a few beatings.  When his father wasn’t around, his mother (yes, Jewish) would make some ethnic food so he has a few, very few, of those cultural memories.  I don’t think at the time, they were presented as Jewish.  My paternal grandmother (Mennonite) and his maternal grandfather (Jewish) grew up about 18 km apart in Crimea and the foods have some similarities.

  73. 73.

    YY_Sima Qian

    @Geminid: The Gulf State & Israeli kleptocrats already have access to dirty cheap Pakistani/Bangladeshi/Indonesian labor they can exploit, I guess they want to save money by exploiting even more desperate people. As for the American kleptocrats, they are already accustomed to “Mexican” or “Filipino” help, so naturally they slot the Gazans into the same role.

  75. 75.

    JaneE

    Trump already said he will back Netanyahu doing whatever it takes to defeat Hamas in Gaza.  Sort of like kill them all and let God sort them out.

    How the Arab population can think that Biden would be worse is beyond me.  Being upset and angry over not doing enough is not the same as being upset and angry about actively helping Israel kill Palestinians.  The sooner they realize that the better.

  76. 76.

    Martin

    @lowtechcyclist: It’s gotten ‘more peaceful’ because they got nukes, which shifted everything to proxy fights and terrorism and away from nation state interactions.

    But insurgency warfare is still disruptive and it petty much never ends, even if it’s smaller in scale.

  77. 77.

    Honus

    @smith: and with good reason. Guys like Strom Thurmond, George Wallace and Lester Maddox were democrats until right around the time of civil rights act.

     

  81. 81.

    Kay

    The person quoted is a conservative with a think tank. I looked him up. He was a huge Bush backer.

    Khaled Saffuri, chairman of the board of the Islamic Free Market Institute, a conservative-leaning, Washington, D.C.-based organization, said Arab Americans are increasingly aware of the importance of donating and becoming active to campaigns, but that they don’t always organize in ways that make it obvious they are operating as an Arab American interest group.

    They need people they know to get other people to come so they probably tapped Saffuri for that, and Saffuri is hoping he can get the votes away from Democrats.

  82. 82.

    hitchhiker

    @lowtechcyclist:

    I mean .. I made a decision never to vote for Republicans after Nixon was exposed as a thug in 1974. I like to think that if events had unfolded in such a way that it made sense to reconsider, I would have been able to do that.

    That said, I can’t understand anybody voting for trump or for any of his sycophants in office. Like, no matter who they are or what their preferred policies are, it just doesn’t make sense to me.

  83. 83.

    Nukular Biskits

    @hitchhiker:

    That said, I can’t understand anybody voting for trump or for any of his sycophants in office. Like, no matter who they are or what their preferred policies are, it just doesn’t make sense to me.

    I don’t disagree but I DO understand why white “conservative” males support him.  Most will claim they’re not really racist (they have a black friend, after all) or misogynist or otherwise bigoted … but they have an innate need to hurt pretty much anyone and everyone different from them.

    Plus, they want to return to a time when white men were the unquestionable authorities for everything.  Changing demographics skeer the fuck out of them.

  86. 86.

    YY_Sima Qian

    The danger for Taiwan (& the world) should Trump get reelected, is not so much that Trump might abandon Taiwan immediately (as he is likely to do to Ukraine), but that his incompetence, personal vanity, & propensity for rage will greatly exacerbate the already concerning downward spiral in trilateral dynamics. Just look at the history through his 1st term, when the Trump Administration, far more than anyone, shifted the Overton Window on the framework governing Sino-US & US-Taiwan relations.

    He certainly does not give a damn about Taiwan, but he has been more than happy to play the Taiwan Card in all kinds of risky ways that edge toward Beijing’s red lines, blowing past old implicit Sino-US understandings that have helped kept the peace (although Xi & Biden have done their own share). The PRC (CPC regime & population) will react w/ even more coercion/grey zone action against Taiwan & even greater nationalist fervor against the US, while the current pro-Independence leaning DPP President Lai (who is more ideologically pro-Taiwan Independence & seems to have higher appetite for risk than his predecessor Tsai) might be encouraged or pushed by his more hardline supporters who are encouraged by Trumpian risk taking to make moves toward de jure independence (not necessarily via formal declaration or referendum, but more explicit assertions of de jure independence as a fact), also edging close to if not crossing Beijing’s red lines. Hawks & hardliners in Beijing, DC & Taipei all feed on each other’s hawkishness.

    Trump himself is too much of a coward to court a hot war w/ the PRC over anything, but his coterie has many Ăźber-China Hawks (along w/ parts of the DC “Blob”) who are eager to wage Cold War w/ the PRC & firmly believe a hot war is inevitable, & that it is better for the US for such a war to happen sooner rather than later (surely some of them hope a nuclear war w/ the PRC will help bring forth Rapture). Some of these reactionary Ăźber-China Hawks are experienced & adept bureaucratic players (not Grenell) who can easily manipulate Trump via his vanities & propensity for rage. (See how they got Trump to OK the assassination of Suleimani.) Trump is not smart or knowledgeable enough to appreciate what kind of risk taking & posturing could be dangerous in the short term, something the Biden Administration does understand (although I don’t think the Biden team appreciates the medium to long term & 2nd/3rd order consequences of their choices).

    Once the shooting starts, it is entirely possible that Trump will immediately sell out Taiwan & try to sue for peace (because he is a coward), & it is also possible some of the most vocal GOP China Hawks in Congress will be frightened by the prospect of a nuclear war w/ the PRC & do the same (because they are cowards), but there are other committed Cold Warriors both in Congress & in the FP bureaucracy who will want to escalate to the bitter end (because they are bloodthirsty primacists). The hardliners in Beijing will also want to escalate to the bitter end. Of course, once the shooting starts, a Lose-Lose-Lose-Lose outcome is all but guaranteed, it’s just a matter of how much everyone loses, & Taiwan will lose the most of them all.

  87. 87.

    Nukular Biskits

    @Wapiti:

    @Nukular Biskits: Not all Arab Americans are Muslim. About 70 percent are Christian; they may not feel the Muslim ban affects them.

    That right there encapsulates Trump supporters:  They believe his policies won’t negatively affect them, just “other”.

  88. 88.

    different-church-lady

    It’s really hard to believe there’s anyone left in the country who doesn’t realize Trump is an asshole, but here we are.

  89. 89.

    Geminid

     

     

    @Martin: Israel had about 10 nuclear weapons when Egypt and Syria attacked them in October of 1973. Moshe Dayan wanted to use one early on when things looked grim, but Golda Meir was made of sterner stuff than her Defense Minister and told him, “No, things aren’t that bad yet.”

  92. 92.

    hitchhiker

    @Nukular Biskits:

    I DO understand why white “conservative” males support him.  Most will claim they’re not really racist (they have a black friend, after all) or misogynist or otherwise bigoted … but they have an innate need to hurt pretty much anyone and everyone different from them.

    My relationship to my 9-yrs-younger brother is hanging by a thread because he supports trump. He’s white, 63, father of four, works in the building trades, lives in a rural part of lower Michigan.

    I don’t see a random cruel streak in him, in the sense you suggest. But I do think he’s been persuaded that “everyone” despises him and all his friends.

    When we were still able to talk about any of this (some years ago now) I used to ask him if he knew that trump would love to punish people (me, his wife, his grown daughters, for example), just for the sin of not voting for him.

    That kind of question invariably got slipped over into the “you take it all too seriously/personally” column. It’s ironic because, as I said, he seems to take the “elitists are laughing at you” stuff very seriously and very, very personally.

    And that makes no sense to me. He knows I’m not laughing at him. He knows I love him. Lately his daughters, who are now 19 and 26, have moved hard away from him to keep from having to watch this sad lunacy. He’ll probably find a way to blame Biden.

  93. 93.

    BR

    For those on the left who are in denial about it, I would think they would care that fewer people in the middle east have been killed with American support during Biden’s administration — including Gaza — than under Trump. The absolute numbers are lower, by a good bit. It’s just that there’s intense media attention on Gaza, rightly so, whereas the media ignored Yemen and Iraq and Syria and Pakistan and Afghanistan and all the drone strikes during Trump’s term.

  94. 94.

    twbrandt

    @Wapiti: Do you have a source for that statistic? Living in Dearborn where Arab Christians are the minority (although I personally know a few), it’s hard for me to accept that Arab Christians outnumber Arab Muslims by that margin. But I know that my judgment is skewed by where I live.

  95. 95.

    Baud

    @hitchhiker:

    Heard lots of stories online during Trump’s first term about old white guys tearing their families apart out of devotion to Trumpism.

  96. 96.

    Harrison Wesley

    @eclare: Bro aces another one of those cognitive tests: “My guy came up to  me –  big guy, strong guy, he had tears in his eyes. ‘Sir, he said,’sir, the zipper is supposed to be in front.'”

  97. 97.

    Marc

    @lowtechcyclist: I remember the 1967 war, when Israel was attacked by Egypt, Jordan, and Syria.

    I know it’s hard to remember this, but the 1967 war started when Israel launched airstrikes against Egyptian airfields.  One can argue whether they had no choice, but the notion that the Arabs made an unprovoked attack against Israel in 1967 is carefully crafted mythology.  There was saber-rattling by both sides.

  99. 99.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    @Nukular Biskits: I have no reason to doubt you … but the questions remains: Why?

    There some reason Muslims can’t be dentists who sell cocaine on the side? Remember what Trump’s voting base really is.

  100. 100.

    YY_Sima Qian

    @BR: I don’t think that is the argument you want to make, since a lot of that happened under Obama, some of which he had clear responsibility for (supporting the Saudis in Yemen & the drone strike campaign).

  101. 101.

    Baud

    Hope this helps

    Mark Cuban defends Biden, bashes Trump on economy

     
    ETA: He says what I’ve been saying. I wonder if he lurks here

  102. 102.

    Geminid

    @twbrandt: I was surprised too, and got it wrong at #20, but Wikipedia seems to back that number up. I hadn’t realized there were so many Lebanese Americans, almost one third of all Arab Americans. I knew a lot of them are Christian, but as someone else pointed out, there are a lot of other Christian minorities in the Middle East and many of them are under pressure from bad actors. Egypt has a Coptic Christian minority comprising around 10% of the population, or over 10 million.

  103. 103.

    Ohio Mom

    @Anonymous At Work: My reaction was similar, of all the restaurants in the world, why Maggiano’s?

    There’s one in the mall near us; we went there a couple of times, out of curiousity. I’d describe the food as very mediocre and the atmosphere as ertasz swank. Which as inappropriate as the menu might be for practicing Muslims, seems on point for the Trump family.

  104. 104.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    @YY_Sima Qian:  Xi and Trump together again in crises over Taiwan, now there is an unpleasant thought. More so since both men seem to have built up their own personal information bubbles in the intervening years.

    From what I recall in Trump the First Part,  the PRC managed Trump with a few well places and cheap bribes. But that doesn’t seem likely to happen if there is a Trump Part Two (Trump Harder).

  105. 105.

    Marc

    @Baud:  Except Southern blacks switched from Republican to Democrat during FDR. Lots of complex dynamics.

    The only problem with this notion is that the majority of southern blacks could not vote at all until the 1960s. And yes, there were complex dynamics.  FDR was never very popular with black folks, Eleanor, however, most certainly was.

  107. 107.

    Baud

    Via reddit, thanks Biden.

    TurboTax lost 1 million customers just when the IRS introduced its own free tax filing option and its stock is plummeting

  108. 108.

    different-church-lady

    @Wapiti: I exist in this country partly because my mother’s father was a Christian in Syria. And the opportunities for a Christian in Syria at the start of the 20th century were approximately zero. (And maybe they still are.)

  109. 109.

    strange visitor (from another planet)

    @Baud: bullshit. most jews in america are totally not down with netanyahu’s gaza purge.

    citation please.

  110. 110.

    David 🌈 ☘The Establishment☘🌈 Koch

    “Taiwan is an example of somebody who’s done an amazing job that is being recognized more and more.”

  112. 112.

    different-church-lady

    @Nukular Biskits: ​
      Well yes. What I mean is, there’s still some who don’t at all realize he’s an asshole. That blows my mind.

  113. 113.

    Nukular Biskits

    @Baud:

    ia reddit, thanks Biden.

    TurboTax lost 1 million customers just when the IRS introduced its own free tax filing option and its stock is plummeting

    It’s only a matter of time before Congress changes the law to prohibit the IRS from offering free-file services, then. And I don’t mean just Republicans … some of that lobbying money goes into Dem pockets as well.

    Anyway, how can Republicans run on a mantra of “government doesn’t work” if it actually works?

  114. 114.

    strange visitor (from another planet)

    @Martin: right. because there were no jews who wanted a nation of their own in the nineteenth century, when zionism was born.

    just the brits, tryin to get rid of all the red-sea pedestrians.

    FFS.

  115. 115.

    Baud

    @Nukular Biskits:

    It was started by the IRA.

    The $15 million study was mandated by the climate-focused Inflation Reduction Act, which was backed by only Democratic lawmakers and provided $80 billion over 10 years for the IRS to beef up enforcement, modernize its technology, improve customer service and rebuild its workforce

     
    But Republicans hate it

    Republicans on the House Appropriations Committee in June proposed a budget rider that would prohibit funds to be used for the IRS to create a government-run tax preparation software, unless approved by a group of House and Senate committees.

  117. 117.

    Smiling Happy Guy (aka boatboy_srq)

    @Anonymous At Work: That was my first takeaway as well. That one item was “How To Be Culturally Insensitive” n a nutshell. It would have taken a lot for Grenell to have won the crowd after that, and Grenell is very, very good at losing the crowd.

  120. 120.

    lowtechcyclist

    @Martin: ​
     

    It’s gotten ‘more peaceful’ because they got nukes, which shifted everything to proxy fights and terrorism and away from nation state interactions.

    Israel was generally believed to be a nuclear power before the Yom Kippur War. And also those proxy fights aren’t backed by nearly so many Arab nations as they used to be.

  121. 121.

    YY_Sima Qian

    @Enhanced Voting Techniques: Once the pandemic started, bribing no longer worked.

    I am quite confident that Xi does not want to wage war over TW, but a century+ of Chinese nationalism has boxed the Xi & CPC leadership on TW, just like it had boxed in Hu, Jiang, Deng, Mao & Chiang. A nominally democratic government in Beijing would be even more vulnerable to nationalist passions.

    If Trump gets reelected, I am going to scrap my plans of taking my daughters back to the U.S.

  122. 122.

    Matt McIrvin

    @Nukular Biskits:

    That’s another thing I’ve never understood:  Single-issue voters.

    In this country, you indeed have the right to vote for … or against … any candidate or any issue for any reason at all or no reason whatsoever.  But it strikes me as being beyond stupid to not weigh the pros/cons of those candidates/issues and vote in a holistic manner for the best outcome.

    It does make sense to me.

    Most political controversies are complicated and involve issues that I actually don’t know a lot about and would take a long time to master the nuances of. Suppose I feel that way about most things, but there’s one issue where I actually feel I do know a lot and I feel very, very strongly about it. Why not just vote on that and leave the other issues to people who understand them better?

  123. 123.

    strange visitor (from another planet)

    @Baud: the jews that vote republican are a SMALL fraction of the american jewish population.

    we have the crazification factor too, the 27% or so. the majority, the VAST majority of red-sea pedestrians vote democratic.

    the MAGA jews are the chasids.

  124. 124.

    Jay

    Police have arrested a teenager who is accused of attacking pro-Palestinian protesters at an encampment at the University of California, Los Angeles (UCLA).

    The attack three weeks ago led to brawling that ended after more than two hours, when police cleared the site.

    The arrest of Edan On, 18, appears to mark the first arrest of a counter-protester linked to the overnight campus chaos.

    Mr On is reportedly the person, in widely shared pictures and video of the melee, seen wearing a white hoodie and mask and hitting protesters with a wooden pole.

    Police have not identified the man they arrested by name but arrest records show that Mr On was taken into custody by UCLA police on Thursday morning.

    He was detained at a business in Beverly Hills and is being held in a Los Angeles County jail.

    He faces one felony charge of assault with a deadly weapon, according to the LA County Sheriff’s Department.

    Mr On’s mother initially said her son was the person seen in videos in the white mask at the protest encampment, according to reporting by CNN earlier this month, although she later said he denied being there.

    She said that Mr On was in his final year of high school and plans to join the Israeli military.

    bbc.com/news/articles/cjee2py1en0o

  127. 127.

    lowtechcyclist

    @Marc: ​
     

    There was saber-rattling by both sides.

    Nasser’s threat to push Israel into the sea was a pretty serious bit of saber-rattling. IIRC, he also blockaded the Gulf of Aqaba which was more than just saber-rattling.

  128. 128.

    Nukular Biskits

    @Matt McIrvin:

    I guess the reason it’s hard for me to understand is that I try to understand the issues and the positions of the candidates.

    Having said that,though, I have to admit to being presented with ballots where there were candidates I had never even heard of.

    So … at best, despite my best efforts, I’d call myself a “somewhat informed voter”.

  130. 130.

    YY_Sima Qian

    @Martin: Remember there are two camps among Taiwanese immigrants of that generation: ardent Chinese nationalists who fled the Mainland w/ Chiang Kai-Shek, & ardent Taiwanese nationalists who favored colonial rule by Imperial Japan over that by the KMT from the Mainland.  Both emigrated to the U.S. because they were disaffected by Chiang Kai-Shek & Chiang Ching-Kuo’s hard authoritarian rule, both were committed anti-CPC, both were upset by Carter switching recognition to Beijing, but one camp was not upset by “One China”, they were upset because Carter switched recognition to the “wrong China”. Some probably held hopes of double recognition of “2 Chinas” a la “2 Germanies” & “2 Koreas”, but that was one of Mao’s & Deng’s red lines.

  131. 131.

    lowtechcyclist

    @Nukular Biskits:

    Anyway, how can Republicans run on a mantra of “government doesn’t work” if it actually works?

    There will always be some areas where government doesn’t work as well as it should, and they can harp on those. The media will give them a hand.

    And failing that, they can make shit up. They’re very practiced at that.

  133. 133.

    catclub

    @Enhanced Voting Techniques: But that doesn’t seem likely to happen if there is a Trump Part Two (Trump Harder).

     

    I consider it very likely. trump gets his foreign policy advice from Putin, who is the only person he trusts.

    Putin will tell him to cave on Taiwan just like he caved on Ukraine.

  134. 134.

    hitchhiker

    @Baud:

    Heard lots of stories online during Trump’s first term about old white guys tearing their families apart out of devotion to Trumpism.

    It’s been surreal to watch that unfold in real time, in my own people.

    I think if you’d asked my brother back in 2016 if he’d be okay with giving up the respect of his kids and the closeness with me for a person like trump — whom he saw at the time as very funny — he wouldn’t have chosen that.

    But very gradually, he has chosen it.

  135. 135.

    Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony

    @Martin:

    If you look at a situation like Ukraine that looks kind of dire, the Democrats can either guarantee you a slow, grinding loss, or you could take the chaos agent and maybe get a win.

    For a lot of voters that are pretty despondent about housing, or drug problems, or their industry dying – Democrats are really clear about having policies that won’t really help them. Republicans have no policies, and will do random shit for random reasons. You have a choice between a party you know won’t do enough to help because they’re too afraid, and a party that might make things worse but also might make them better.

    I know some people like that. That have this weird combination of being angry that they aren’t doing as well as others, willful blindness to the ways they are getting some help (even though they need more), and a real lack of imagination about how much worse it could be. Take Ukraine, the chaos agent would just feed them to the wolves. There is zero chance it would get better.

    The GOP really doesn’t care about the poor. They would let them die in the street and step over the corpses. Trump is no exception. The people who depend on the programs Democrats are barely able to keep funded would sorely miss them when they are gone.

  136. 136.

    gene108

    Last paragraph in the first linked article in the OP.

    “It was an interesting and positive meeting because they’re reaching out to our community, asking what they can do to win our vote versus, you know, the alternative right now,” one of the meeting’s participants told NOTUS.

  137. 137.

    YY_Sima Qian

    @catclub: Putin wants the US & the PRC at each other’s throats. Hot war is better than Cold War, nuclear war best of all. The more intense the Sino-US Great Power Competition, the more the PRC will need Russia, & the less unequal the Sino-Russian relationship.

    You don’t really think Putin is Xi’s, or anyone’s, puppet, do you?

    Modi is another one that probably wants the PRC & the US at each other’s throats. More more intense the rivalry, the more the US needs India, the less the US will care about Modi’s illiberalism & authoritarianism, & the more trade/technology/military benefit the US will provide to India.

  138. 138.

    Geminid

    @Marc: I reread David Oren’s book about that war, Six Days of War (2002). Oren researched his subject extensively, and focused on the decision-making of the various nations, and the diplomacy between them. It’s a good book, without very much pro-Israel bias (Oren had a tough time telling the story of the Liberty attack, though).

    One interesting fact: the Joint Chiefs gave LBJ a prognosis for the war that looked more and more inevitable as May drew to a close: Israel would win in one week if it attacked first; if it let Egypt and Syria attack first, Israel would win in two weeks.

    Johnson’s main concern throughout was avoiding a military confrontation with the Soviet Union. He was very relieved when the war ended without becoming general. However problematic Israel’s conquest of the West Bank and Gaza has been in the decades since, at the time Johnson saw it as a minor problem compared to what could have happened.

    LBJ  was also preoccupied with the mess he’d gotten the US into in Vietnam. So the US began 56 years of neglect, and drift, and choosing to manage this problem instead of trying to solve it.

  140. 140.

    David 🌈 ☘The Establishment☘🌈 Koch

    @YY_Sima Qian: What was their view of Nixon for founding “One China” in the Shanghai communique and removing the US nuclear umbrella from Taiwan?

  141. 141.

    YY_Sima Qian

    @Geminid: If Israel had only temporarily occupied the WB & the Gaza Strip before helping to establish a Palestinian client state there, or fully incorporated them into the Israeli State & gave the inhabitants the same rights as Arab Israelis, & not turned them into colonial projects w/ more than a whiff of Apartheid, it would have remained a minor issue.

  142. 142.

    Nukular Biskits

    @hitchhiker:

    It’s been surreal to watch that unfold in real time, in my own people.

    I think if you’d asked my brother back in 2016 if he’d be okay with giving up the respect of his kids and the closeness with me for a person like trump — whom he saw at the time as very funny — he wouldn’t have chosen that.

    But very gradually, he has chosen it.

    I’ve seen it in my own life as well.

    My brother is typical of the demographic supporting Trump:  white, middle-aged, hates taxes, is convinced “those people” (meaning blacks, immigrants, etc) are stealing his jobs, ranted about masks and bought into the COVIDiocy, among other things.  We’ve had some heated discussions with me throwing down the gauntlet that we’d have to agree to not discuss politics at all or we’d not be speaking at all.  Fortunately, he chose the former option.

    As for the “Trump is funny” reason, I have a former coworker, now retired, who told me he’d vote for Trump in 2016 because he thought it would be hilarious.

  143. 143.

    YY_Sima Qian

    @David 🌈 ☘The Establishment☘🌈 Koch: Utter betrayal, but Nixon had not switched official recognition to Beijing, though he probably would have if it were not for Congressional opposition. The ROC always had one of the most effective lobbies in U.S. politics, even after Chiang fled to Taiwan, probably the most effective one before the onset of the Cold War, & 2nd only to the Israel Lobby since the 70s. Now inherited & maintained by the DPP (although the KMT still does its share).

  144. 144.

    Roberto el oso

    Since others have commented on the possibly tone-deaf choice of a non-halal restaurant for the meeting, another peculiarity is the Trump campaign’s decision to send Grenell, who is openly gay. While this wouldn’t be noteworthy in a meeting with any other demographic group, it’s been pointed out that the “conservatism” (read ‘bigotry’) among elements of the Muslim-American population in Michigan has made them wobbly as allies for the Dems, and so putting Grenell as point-person on this outreach seems, well, odd.

  145. 145.

    catclub

    Another Trump case, another gag order:
    Special counsel asks judge for gag order in Trump classified documents case

  146. 146.

    Mai Naem mobile

    The CBS radio top of the news quickie 3 minute update had Lloyd Austin’s non cancer procedure today as breaking news earlier today.  It had that ‘Michael Jackson died’ vibe to it. I just bet Lloyd Austin luurved that.

  147. 147.

    David 🌈 ☘The Establishment☘🌈 Koch

    @Geminid: There’s a brilliant PBS documentary on how the Soviets engineered the six day war.  Starts at the 49 minute mark (video)

  148. 148.

    Mai Naem mobile

    @Baud: Mark Cuban has talked about his experience with TFG way pre-Shark Tank when he was at Mar A Loco in jeans and a t-shirt. TFG didn’t realize he was talking to a wealthy guy and was giving condescending advice to Mark Cuban on how to get rich.

  149. 149.

    Jackie

    Did this get mentioned? Apparently some Libertarians are pissed about TIFG and RFK jr being invited to speak at their convention!🤭

    Donald Trump won’t be speaking to his usual self-selected crowd of adoring red-hatted MAGA fans when he addresses the Libertarian National Convention on Saturday,” Politico reports.

    “As delegates gathered at the Washington Hilton on the eve of his speech, the party’s decision to host the former president, which had split the organization, erupted Friday into open revolt. Fuming delegates at the convention said they plan to protest Trump’s speech, and one group sought unsuccessfully to remove the former president along with Robert F. Kennedy Jr., from the agenda — a move that resulted in thrown punches and obscenities between supporters and opponents of the move.”

    I hope the media got film!

  150. 150.

    A woman from anywhere (formerly Mohagan)

    @Michael Bersin: This reminds me of the saying I first ran into in a Law and Order episode after the detectives visited the Irish father, who was suffering from dementia, and did nothing during the visit but complain, of one of the detectives. After they left, she said “Irish Alzheimer’s: forget everything but the grudges”. I’ve known a few people like that!

  151. 151.

    Wapiti

    @twbrandt: first hit on my google search was a piece for National Arab American Heritage Month (2021) from some group called Insight into Diversity, it fit my preconceptions, it could be wrong.

  152. 152.

    opiejeanne

    There’s a poster whose name I can’t remember right now that I haven’t seen here in a long time. He used to post about going to his brother’s house to take care of the dogs when the brother and his parter were on vacation. I think the brother had a couple of kids.  He referred to his brother’s place as Sighthound Hall. Does anyone else remember him or know if he’s been here and I’ve just missed him?

  154. 154.

    sab

    @Princess: That’s true in Ohio also. We have a lot of Arabs but they are mostly Christian:  Lebanese or Syrian. Some of them are even Palestinian Christians. 50 years ago about 30% of Palestinians were Christian. A lot of them have left Israel.

  155. 155.

    mrmoshpotato

    @What46HasDone

    I feel like everyone who says they won’t vote for Biden over Gaza should be required to have a mandatory meeting with Ric Grenell. Or at least view a video of one. Because this is who you get if it’s not Joe Biden, and I wouldn’t want anyone to be unclear on what that means.

    Amen.

  156. 156.

    Roberto el oso

    @Jackie: I just read that one of the anti-Trump delegates filed a motion to ask Trump “to go f*ck himself”, and received a round of hearty applause.

    My money is that Trump discovers a scheduling conflict between now and tomorrow. If not, should be fun.

  157. 157.

    sab

    @catclub: Thanks. That won’t work. My dad listed us as specific beneficiaries (each kid listed by name) after my mom died, because he was not going to have more kids.

    So his estate has no claim on the IRA and therefore I as executor have no claim on it. It’s avoiding probate. It goes to the listed kids.

    The problem apparently is that Vanguard doubts than I actually am one of the listed kids because with two names and one social security number there is a risk of identity theft. And since their system doubts I am 8who I am they won’t give me any information about how to clean it up.

    My siblings did fine signing up but they can’t get any actual money until I can sign up. I can use one of them who is signed up to get a lot more information because they trust that she is who she says she is.

    They did finally relent and send me a 120 page document ( with two forms) so I can fill it out on paper and send it back with various documents to prove who I am. Five weeks (and many many hours on hold on the phone, plus three times hung up on after waiting) into the process I finally got that paper booklet. I did get at least four people who really tried to help, but apparently their system is so opaque internally that even their employers don’t know what is going on, or why or how things aren’t workimg.

  158. 158.

    Geminid

    @lowtechcyclist: You’d probably like that book by David Oren I talk about at #138, Six Days of War. You are welcome to borrow it if you ever come by on your way to the Shenandoah Valley.

    Oren’s account of the dynamics behind Egypt’s role in the war is fascinating. It starts out in 1954, with three young Egyptian Army officers: Gamel Abdul Nassar, Anwar Sadat and ‘Abd el-Hakim ‘Amer. They were good friends and for the next 10 years worked closely together as Nasser became Egypt’s dynamic President, then the popular, charismatic leader of the Arab world. Nasser became known worldwide as “a champion, along with Nehru and Nkruma, of nonalignment.” Sadat and ‘Amer remained his trusted allies throughout.

    By 1967, Sadat was Speaker of the National Assembly, and Nasser’s loyal confidant and advisor. ‘Amer was Field Marshall and headed up the Army; but he was drawing away from Nasser and starting to develop a personal power base of chosen generals.

    Nasser was not a well man by then. He had developed diabetes in the early 1960s and it severely sapped his energy and stamina. Nasser’s mind was still good, and he was realistic enough to know his army was not up to a war with Israel. For one thing, some of its best troops were fighting in Yemen.

    ‘Amer thought otherwise, and he forced many of the decisions that led to the war. Israeli and the Syrian leaders contributed their share to the the war’s origins, but ‘Amer bears a lot of the blame by Oren’s account.

    ‘Amer’s conduct of the war once it started was wretched, and the cronies he had placed in important commands were as bad or worse. ‘Amer resigned after the disaster, but by August he was demanding his job back and preparing a coup. Nasser sent a general to arrest him, and ‘Amer took poison and died.

    Nasser lived three more years, pressed by a failing economy and constant warfare across the Suez Canal. Then in August of 1970:

       Nasser consented to a ceasefire, but a month later he was again thrust into conflict as Palestinian forces in Jordan staged an open revolt against the monarchy. Syrian tanks rolled towards the Jordanian border, and the Israelis pledged to help Hussein– the entire region verged in conflagration until Nasser stepped in and mediated a solution in which Arafat and his guerillas would evacuate Jordan and receive asylum in Lebanon.

    The Jordanian civil war or, as the Palestinians called it, Black September, utterly drained Nasser. He returned to Cairo on September 28 and went to bed, never to rise again.

    Oren, Six Days of War

  159. 159.

    Another Scott

    @sab: Thanks for the update.  I’m glad you’re making some progress.  It sounds like it will be over in the not too distant future.

    I’m sure it’s been painful and aggravating and frustrating and senseless.  Too much of life is that way.  :-(

    Fingers crossed!

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  160. 160.

    sab

    @sab: I hated Touche Ross and Deloitte Touche when I worked there 35 years ago and this experience hasn’t improved my opinion of them. Sign an employee up for a retirement account a full year before you have to contribute? And leave it hanging in limbo forever afterwards?

  161. 161.

    Subsole

    @Martin:

    Except…we have been enacting policies to help. Biden has done all sorts of things to help everyone from students to Union workers to people with health issues. We’ve made massive investments in the American middle and working classes. (For which we’ve gotten absolutely nothing in return but abuse from a bunch of smelly fucking Libertarians in Hippie-drag…)

    Hillary had all kinds of plans to help those West Virginia coal miners. They voted with their dicks, instead. That’s not the Democrats’ fault.

    And I’m sorry, but it is borderline gaslighting to say the GOP is some unknown, unknowable lolrandom entity on which desperate people roll the dice. There has never been a day in my life where the GOP was not brutally and systematically fucking over the middle and working classes as a matter of policy. Anyone who doesn’t know what the GOP is about on that front is, frankly, lying to themselves.

  162. 162.

    brantl

    @Bill Arnold: It still gets them all the idiot support they want, how does this work out differently than supporting Israel to ridiculous levels?

  163. 163.

    brantl

    @Martin: That whole argument is some of the dumbest shit I have ever read. Trump’s people aren’t competent enough to jerk off, much less do anything of equivalent technical competence, anyone trying to bet on someone who will fix it, and has more than coonshit for brains, isn’t betting on Stumpy.

  165. 165.

    trnc

    I feel like everyone who says they won’t vote for Biden over Gaza should be required to have a mandatory meeting with Ric Grenell.

    Really? Because I feel like everyone who says they won’t vote for Biden over Gaza should spend about 10 minutes looking up anything that DT ever said about Palestinians or Muslims in general. That’s a realistic goal, it comes straight from DT and not some self-styled rep for him and it would be at least as illuminating.

  166. 166.

    Ryan

    “Maggiano’s in Troy, Michigan ”

     

    I mean this is just sad.  Granted, it’s not Olive Garden, but could they not find a Pantangilis?

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