Epshteyn wields enormous power and influence in Trumpworld. He’s survived a lot longer in it than Musk.
If it’s Musk v. Epshteyn, I wouldn’t underestimate the latter. https://t.co/sNnwKZ9NJ9
— Anna Bower (@AnnaBower) November 18, 2024
The latter is Putin's proxy. He appears regularly on RT, has Russian roots and is fluent in Russian.
— Blank Slate (@blankslate2017) November 18, 2024
Thing about Kremlinology — fellow Olds will remember — is that it can be very difficult to parse out the difference between actual disagreements & kabuki theater intended to send a message, frequently to more than one audience. Per Axios:
… The friction between Musk and Boris Epshteyn — a top adviser who’s pushed for Cabinet picks that include Matt Gaetz for attorney general — surfaced in public last week. It signaled a rivalry stemming from Musk’s growing influence on the president-elect, to the dismay of some Trump loyalists.
* Musk — who fueled Trump’s election effort by giving at least $119 million — has questioned whether Epshteyn has had too much influence in Trump’s selections, especially his top Justice Department picks and the White House counsel, three people familiar with the conversations told Axios.
* At the same time, Musk has begun to push for his own Cabinet favorites.
* Epshteyn has bristled at Musk’s questioning the qualifications of Epshteyn’s favored candidates, two of the sources said.
Zoom in: Their rocky relationship came to a head last Wednesday during a heated discussion at a dinner table in front of other guests at Trump’s Mar-a-Lago club, three people familiar with the episode told Axios.
* At one point during what the sources described as a “massive blowup” and a “huge explosion,” Musk accused Epshteyn of leaking details of Trump’s transition — including personnel picks — to the media.
Zoom out: The rift between Musk and Epshteyn wasn’t a surprise to Trump senior staffers and confidants who’ve seen tensions between them bubble up during the transition meetings at Mar-a-Lago that began shortly after the Nov. 5 election….
Potential Easter egg, the NYTimes article referenced by Axios is a joint Maggie Haberman / Jonathan Swan piece on “The Trump Lawyer Who Wields Outsize Influence on the Next White House” [gift link]:
President-elect Donald J. Trump was flying to Washington for his first face-to-face meeting with President Biden since winning the election when a top aide offered a startling idea to broker peace between Russia and Ukraine.
The adviser, Boris Epshteyn, who coordinated the legal defenses in Mr. Trump’s criminal cases, suggested to the president-elect that he should be Mr. Trump’s special envoy for the Russia-Ukraine conflict, according to four people briefed on what took place.
Mr. Epshteyn, who was born in Russia and lived there as a child, has no experience in foreign policy. He told the group that he had family on both sides of the conflict.
Several people on the plane appeared shocked at the idea of appointing Mr. Epshteyn to a sensitive diplomatic post, according to the people briefed on the matter. In addition to his lack of diplomatic experience, he is currently under indictment in Arizona along with several other Trump allies for their efforts to overturn the 2020 election with so-called fake electors. (A fifth person with knowledge of the events insisted people on the plane reacted well to the idea and suggested thoughts on how to structure such a move.)
But none of the people with knowledge of the incident disputed one key fact: The person on the plane who registered the least shock at the special envoy notion was the only person whose opinion ultimately matters. Mr. Trump listened with apparent interest and did not dismiss the proposal, even though he did not commit to it.
Whatever comes of Mr. Epshteyn’s idea, Mr. Trump has already given his adviser extraordinary power and shown a willingness to heed his counsel above that of others. Even the world’s richest man, Elon Musk, who has been in many transition meetings in the past week, has privately remarked at how surprised he is that Mr. Epshteyn has been granted so much authority…
Of course, Mr. ‘You’re Fired’ is known to delight in making subordinates via for his attention by battling each other, but one has to wonder just how serious this Epshteyn / Musk tiff ‘really’ is…
Boris’ fluent Russian helps when tattling to boss Putin. https://t.co/bcxPVerXhE
— BevMarie 🪷 (@evenbev) November 18, 2024
NobodySpecial
Other handlers of Russian assets must be insanely jealous that they don’t have such an easy way to handle drops.
The Thin Black Duke
I’m old enough to remember when Russia were the bad guys.
Baud
@The Thin Black Duke:
They still are, until Jan 20.
Betty Cracker
It’s always disappointing when media accounts of a “massive blowup” and “huge explosion” turn out to be a boring squabble between a pair of frog-faced fuckwits. Is it wrong to wish for more, uh, kinetic “explosions”?
Baud
@Betty Cracker:
Media wanted Trump for the clicks. They’re going to take advantage.
sukabi
@Betty Cracker: no Betty, it’s not wrong at all… 🙂
The Thin Black Duke
@Baud: Yeah. (sigh)
eclare
And another person, a ballet dancer, fell to his death.
cnn.com/2024/11/18/style/vladimir-shklyarov-ballet-death-scli-intl/index.html
Splitting Image
The thing to understand about Musk is that he is very, very stupid. Possibly even stupider than Trump, even if Fran Lebowitz doesn’t think that is possible.
Musk is also the best kind of stupid person. He’s a stupid person in control of an enormous pile of money. And by entering Trump’s orbit he has surrounded himself with people whose primary life skill is separating stupid people from their money.
I expect that right now, Musk is the one person in the room who can’t spot the sucker.
NotMax
“All presidential motorcades shall henceforth include at least one Cybertruck.”
TBone
Heather Cox Richardson’s unequivocal statement today is a solace. She ain’t never lied.
heathercoxrichardson.substack.com/p/november-18-2024
We are the majority – no ifs, ands, or buts.
Baud
@TBone:
No, we’re not.
TBone
@Baud:
Gerry. Mander.
(Elbridge Gerry)
Baud
@TBone:
Affects groupings, not totals.
p.a.
tRump is capable of a very narrow range of thought; narcissism and whatever is hurtful to his targets, but within that range I think whoever had his ear last, that’s the path tRump will take (or whatever recommendations he remembers.)
One way to wage guerrilla war on his admin is to push the “Mr X is the real Preznit, tRump is incapable/a figurehead” meme. If it gets into the mainstream, it could drive him nuts. Or nuts-er, if that’s a word.
TBone
@Baud: the effect is on how they are able to game the system so the majority loses.
TBone
Senator Bob Casey recount results are reported by Marc Elias to be due November 27.
It’s basically a tie.
Baud
@TBone:
Just because they game the system does not make us a majority. We can try to build a majority for the future, but right now we’re not a majority, and if we think we are, we’re going to end up making mistakes.
TBone
@TBone: politicians get to choose their voters instead of the voters choosing their politicians.
TBone
@Baud: take it up with Heather Cox Richardson.
She does meticulous research. I guess you didn’t click.
Me and Bob Casey not going to give in 😆
Baud
@TBone:
If she says we’re a majority, then I’m glad I didn’t click.
Recognizing reality has nothing to do with giving in.
Suzanne
@Betty Cracker:
No. I want these schmucks to at least entertain me.
TBone
Reposting something RevRick brought yesterday – an interesting Will Bunch article:
inquirer.com/opinion/commentary/trump-cabinet-gaetz-rfk-gabbard-20241117.html
(I bolded)
The Thin Black Duke
@Baud: If we’re a majority, then 2+2=5.
Keith P.
Epshteyn reminds me of Irena Briganti at Fox News – flies somewhat under the radar but has been around since the early days and has a row of heads-on-pikes from higher profile individuals who crossed her.
TBone
PA rethugs suing to “Stop The Counting!” PA Supreme Court says OK, no ballots that are “incorrectly dated” or that have other issues on the outer envelope can be counted.
MagdaInBlack
@Baud: @TBone: In all fairness, what she says is that “more people voted for other than trump.” That includes the Jill Stein and RFKbw voters. Unfortunately, those folks aint “us.”
Princess
Trump loves it when his underlings fight to win his favour.
satby
@eclare: An important ballet dancer who spoke out against the war on Ukraine two years ago. Probably a coincidence.
MagdaInBlack
@Princess: Chaos among the courtiers.
TBone
@MagdaInBlack: I am creating a reality for myself that includes anyone who did not vote for Donold. I prefer to buck the narrative that any kind of “mandate” exists for these fucks. The Will Bunch article brought by RevRick explains why I am not buying into the narrative.
This is the preceding context paragraph for Heather’s statement:
satby
@MagdaInBlack: Correct. Though I don’t think it’s unfortunate that the voters for the election cicada and brainworms aren’t “us”.
I do wish people wouldn’t spam morning threads.
Princess
@MagdaInBlack: “We” certainly don’t include RFK or Stein voters so it’s hard to see how they make “us” a majority. I personally not a reader of Heather Cox Richardson. I find her writing turgid. But I do get that many others find her consoling and hey, if it helps a person in these days, go for it.
NotMax
Entirely OT.
A little more homework was too much trouble?
Watched an otherwise informative short documentary put together by an Australian who pronounced a waterway on the east coast of the U.S. the POH-toh-mac River and FDR’s name as Franklin De-LAY-no Roosevelt.
Princess
@satby: You’d think it would be a coincidence but the story is he slipped on a balcony. A ballet dancer. Lost his footing. Think about that. Seems suspicious to me.
Shalimar
I don’t recall a single fight between Epshteyn and any other Trump advisor that Epshteyn didn’t win. He doesn’t need to leak to the press to create leverage. Trump almost always takes his legal advice.
MagdaInBlack
@TBone: I’m also troubled by the narrative of a “mandate” but that doesn’t change where we are today. They’re full steam ahead with the media all on board.
( screaming into the void is now my morning ritual, btw)
Shalimar
@Splitting Image: Musk is persistently, arrogantly dumb. He never let’s go of his stupidest ideas, like X the everything platform, no matter how much the people around him try to help him see reality. And the people around him, from the Paypal mafia all the way to his Twitter advisors, always consist of the most patheticly natural ass-kissers. For them to tell him to his face that something is stupid means it is way beyond normal dumb ideas.
NotMax
FYI. From July.
MagdaInBlack
@Princess: I’d rather listen to her than read her. Her series on the history of the republican party was a big help to me in understanding who they are and how they got here.
TBone
@MagdaInBlack: solace is my business 😁
– Margaret Mead
Comment from elsewhere:
🔴 2004 – Bush +2.4%
🔵 2008 – Obama +7.2%
🔵 2012 – Obama +3.9%
🔵 2016 – Clinton +2%
🔵 2020 – Biden +4.4%
🔴 2024 – Trump +1.9% (Current)
Hillary beat Donold again 😆
Princess
@MagdaInBlack: She’s obviously a fine historian.
NotMax
@MagdaInBlack
Did someone say mandate?
;)
TBone
@NotMax: 😂 exactly
MagdaInBlack
@NotMax: 😄😉🌻 Good morning !
NotMax
@MagdaInBlack
Howdy.
;)
satby
@Princess: My coincidence comment was snark.
And even if it was legitimately an accident, the thing about falls from high places for critics of the government in Russia is that everyone else will assume it was a murder, which helps silence other potential critics. Win-win for Putin.
NotMax
@MagdaInBlack
If you don’t mind me asking, seen any uptick in people bringing in their vehicles for deferred maintenance in anticipation of tariffs on auto parts?
(IIRC, that’s your bailiwick.)
Princess
@satby: D’oh, haven’t had my coffee yet.
NotMax
@satby
Would have been a telling experiment while you had your market stall to track the sales of otherwise identical soaps colored red or blue.
Gin & Tonic
Day 1,000 of the current phase of russia’s war on Ukraine.
Baud
@Gin & Tonic:
Sad milestone.
Geminid
Thr third party vote declined this year. The Greens typically attract over 1 million voters, but Jill Stein is running close to 750,000. RFK Jr. also has around 750,000, so maybe he captured a chunk of the Green Party vote.
The Libertarian vote collapsed. I think Jo Jorgenson totaled 1.8 million in 2020, while this year Chase Oliver has about 670,000. Intra-party struggles may have caught up with the Libertarians.
I don’t know what to make of this. I’d like to think it means the Greens and the Libertarians are on the way out, but I doubt that.
And at the lower levels, 3rd party candites may have had an impact. I’m thinking here of the Arizona 6th CD race, where the Green Party candidate might have helped Reublican Rep. Ciscomani win, and the extremly close Pennsylvania Senate race. The Green Party candidate there did well. I suspect voters protesting the Gaza war accounted for a substantial portion of the Green vote in these races.
And in Marcy Kaptur’s Northwest Ohio Congressional race, the Lbertarian got 4% of the vote. I expext Kaptur will win by less than 1%, so she may have benefited from 3rd party votes.
lowtechcyclist
@MagdaInBlack:
This. And Chase Oliver, the Libertarian Party candidate, also not ‘us.’
For ‘us’ to be a majority, we’d have to count all of the above, plus >80% of the third-party voters who voted for someone besides that trio, as ‘us.’ And like you say, they ain’t us.
Nice that Trump couldn’t quite get 50%, but doesn’t really mean much.
Baud
@Geminid:
I can’t believe the Libertarians found something that goes too far for them.
Quinerly
Excellent idea..
“Biden should be neither ashamed nor afraid to thoroughly investigate Trump’s picks, given the signs that Trump may not. Through executive order, he should mandate that the FBI conduct background investigations on Trump’s picks and instruct the FBI to begin the process now.”
msnbc.com/opinion/msnbc-opinion/biden-trump-cabinet-picks-fbi-background-checks-rcna180698
Quinerly
Britt Hume explains to his Fox viewers that Trump has no mandate. No landslide.
foxnews.com/video/6364878592112
mediaite.com/tv/foxs-brit-hume-says-trump-should-ignore-talk-about-having-enormous-mandate-because-t…
Chris Johnson
Having American (ok, South African, but they immigrated!) billionaires getting in fights with direct proxies for Putin seems like tons of fun. Especially when the proxies think they can take an election victory only possible by the work of the American billionaires, and immediately turn it to ruining the United States by any and every means.
What if Elon’s taken too much ketamine, and he’s like ‘hear me out. How about, instead of YOUR old guy ruling both Russia and America, okay, how about OUR old guy rules both America and Russia? We can do a way better job of it.’
‘Your guy is our literal puppet and you risk more than you know, yankee’
‘Your guy depends on me personally to run communications on his battlefield. I’m just saying, think about it. Who do you think really won the election anyway? I’m getting tired of your old ways of thinking.’
‘…’ (fumes, in Russian)
These power struggles might be really LIT. It’s absolutely true that Epshteyn’s people would not have a win without the aggressive help and efforts of Musk, and they’re in desperate need for such help. Yet, none of the South African billionaires involved really have fealty to Putin. They believe and behave as if they are their own power bloc, not necessarily with the same interests. They might stand to gain from their own palace coup, stealing the puppet strings, and considering themselves the literal rulers of the world as they’ve often wished to be. Putin stands in their way, and is greatly weakened through not beating Ukraine, plus all the election-meddling could rightly be blamed on him, as that’s where it started.
Times just keep getting more interesting…
NotMax
@Quinerly
Disagree only because none of them has been officially nominated. Much as I may want to support this, I cannot. They are potential nominees until all the Is dotted and Ts crossed on the election on January 6.
Geminid
@Baud: Their candidate, Chase Oliver, is gay and that might have cost them some votes. And the Libertarians’ internal power struggles with its “Von Mises Caucus” may have taken a toll.
Another potential explaination: Trump is such a polarizing figure he attracted people who would otherwise have voted Libertarian. Trump leaned into polarization this year with a sort “Leave No Nut Behind” strategy. RFK Jr. helped there.
lowtechcyclist
@Chris Johnson:
As the tag line says, “fuck these fucking interesting times.”
But not all interesting times are created equal.
Sure, being run by a cabal of tech billionaires who want to take Putin down a few notches might well be better than being run by Trump’s crew of crazies. Now if only they wanted to take on global warming as well…
p.a.
Aren’t there 2 different points here? 1) Yes, we’re not the majority: liberals can do math. Adjust to become majority in next elections (waaayyy above my pay grade.)
2) Yes, tRump is a minority presnit, and this should be screamed from rooftops. Deny his legitimacy by any means necessary.
Quinerly
@NotMax:
I’ll side with the ex FBI and lawyer guy.
Splitting Image
@Geminid:
The Republicans have basically turned themselves into a third party, in the sense that they are gathering up every loony who has a grievance against the government or “the system” and promising to implement a hodge-podge of contradictory promises that will totally destroy the country if no one can talk the loonies down. Naturally they took votes away from the Greens and the Libertarians.
The system assumes that 90% of the country will vote for parties who will steer the country in the direction they prefer by fixing things that have the most serious problems but keeping everything that seems to be working more or less intact. Democracy doesn’t work very well when only 50% of the country is willing to do this.
tobie
@TBone: This is something of a bone of contention for me but I could not understand why the PA Dem Party was urging people to vote by mail, when it was crystal clear that the GOP would take advantage of every screw-up in mail ballots to exclude them. This was so tragically predictable.
Frank Wilhoit
@TBone:
The essential subtext of this is that if you want to have first-past-the-post elections, there must be exactly two candidates on the ballot. If you want to be able to have more than two candidates, then you must use something other than first-past-the-post.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@TBone:
Now we’re in Franken territory. It’ll go to a recount and (crosses fingers, tosses salt over whichever shoulder counts, guts a goat and reads the entrails, etc) hopefully he’ll pull it out.
I fully realize it won’t change the Senate but it will makes things better to get it back in two years. As everybody says, every vote counts.
RevRick
@The Thin Black Duke: In a plot twist to the Fx series, The Americans, Philip and Elizabeth Jennings, after fleeing from the FBI to Russia via Canada, are welcomed back and appointed Attorney General and Director of National Intelligence respectively.
Another Scott
@tobie: As a comment upstairs reminds us, voting by mail increases participation substantially. That’s why we should push for it. It’s the right thing to do, while also lessening the power of the monsters.
The GQP fights for every vote when they think it’s close and can be tilted their way. Otherwise, not so much. They try to do the same under every voting system (restricting numbers of machines in precincts, allowing monsters as “poll watchers”, letting husbands “help” their wives, etc.). It’s not a reason to oppose vote by mail. It is a reason, though, to make sure the vote by mail rules are sensible and not arbitrary and difficult and subject to manipulation by partisan actors.
FWIW.
Thanks.
Best wishes,
Scott.
Quinerly
I’m behind on the news that Comcast is considering selling off MSNBC. Separating it from NBC.
shorenewsnetwork.com/2024/11/12/comcast-to-put-msnbc-and-oprah-founded-oxygen-networks-up-for-sale-i…
Baud
@Quinerly:
Are there any liberal billionaires who can, or will, buy it?
Another Scott
@Baud: Maybe Vicente Fox can be a part owner and have a show on it??
Best wishes,
Scott.
frosty
@Baud: @TBone: Depends on how you define “we”. People who voted against Trump? We’re the majority. People who voted for Harris? We’re not.
RevRick
@Splitting Image: Stupidity might be described as the combination of the Dunning-Kruger syndrome of believing one is more competent than one really is with an obstinacy which brooks no challenge.
As Dietrich Bonhoeffer observed, “Stupidity is a more dangerous enemy of the good than malice. One may protest against evil; it can be exposed and, if need be, prevented by the use of force. Evil always carries within itself the germ of its own subversion in that it leaves behind in human beings at least a sense of unease.
Against stupidity we are defenseless.
Neither protests nor the use of force accomplish anything here; reasons fall on deaf ears; facts that contradict one’s prejudgment simply need not be believed— in such moments the stupid person even becomes critical— and when facts are irrefutable, they are pushed aside as inconsequential, as incidental. In all this the stupid person, in contrast to the malicious one, is utterly self-satisfied and, being easily irritated, becomes dangerous by going on the attack.”
Bonhoeffer has a lot more to say about stupidity. It’s an insightful analysis.
Quinerly
@Baud:
I know there is a lot of dislike here for the cable channels.
MSNBC gives voice to Liberals. Plus, it platforms interviews with folks CNN and Fox ignore. It would be a huge loss. Trump et al would be very happy.
TBone
@frosty: just posted upstairs. Yes, I included all non-Donold popular votes.
Philip Bump at Digby’s place:
digbysblog.net/2024/11/18/more-mandate/
TBone
@comrade scotts agenda of rage: 💜
Who would have predicted this fight undertaken by our gentlemanly, elegantly understated, “mild” Senator?
I don’t care who is predicted to win it at this point – it’s the fight in the dog that I’m applauding.
TBone
Wonkette:
frosty
@TBone: I’m applauding Casey’s fight also. Don’t concede until the votes are counted! Duh.
Tony G
@Baud: Well, of course, in our “system” winning the majority of the popular vote DOES NOT MATTER. The more broad conclusion that I draw is that in 2016, 2020 and 2024 the popular vote totals were close. In other words, in each of those three elections roughly half of the people who bothered to vote voted for Donald Fucking Trump. That is the problem; about half the country is broken. The other details don’t matter much.
TBone
@frosty: 💙
TBone
@tobie: and we had too many such screwups here in PA. My household mail ballots didn’t arrive (held up at Post Office for unknown reasons) until I phoned our Dem Council Chairwoman to raise hell (ballots finally arrived 2 weeks prior but not in time to mail them back) and, furthermore, a LOT of mail ballots in PA were never received by voters.
Citizen Alan
@MagdaInBlack: the narrative of the mandate makes perfect sense once you accept the reality that the liberal media has been dominated by fascist propaganda agents for years, if not decades. After all these years, the new york times still loves the idea of a Fuhrer.
tam1MI
Where are we standing on House races? Aren’t there a handful yet to be counted? Which way are they leaning?
Betty
@TBone: I knew that it was important that my vote count after it was challenged by a MAGAt. Fingers crossed!
Thank you, ACLU!
Heidi Mom
@TBone: Late to the party, but I wanted to add to the chorus: This is the same guy who traveled around the Commonwealth in 2007-8 introducing Barack Obama in those not-likely-to-be-friendly red, rural counties. He’s a stand-up guy.
Geminid
@tam1MI: Associated Press has called 430 House races, with Republicans winning 218 and Democrats winning 212.
Five uncalled races include Alaska, where Nick Begich leads Democratic Rep. Mary Peltola. Democratic Rep. Marcy Kaptur (OH09) leads her race but has not been declared winner by AP. Republican Rep. Mariannette Miller-Meeks leads in the Iowa 1st CD.
Two California races have yet to be called. Rpublican Rep. John Duarte leads in the Central Valley 9th CD by 2200 votes with 86% counted. And there is a real squeaker in the LA-adjacent 45th CD, where Democrat Derek Tran leads Rep. Michelle Steel by 102 votes with 94% counted.
tam1MI
@Geminid: Dead thread, but still wanted to say Thanks for the info!
Geminid
@tam1MI: As the younguns say, “No problem.”
Bobby Thomson
@TBone: I expected Casey to be in the mold of Carper and Coons, and he has been anything but that.
dnfree
@TBone: Trump got more votes than Harris. That is still true. The total of Harris and third-party votes is very slightly bigger than Trump’s total. Hence “we” do not have a majority of the vote unless “we” includes all the other votes, regardless of motive.