The New York Times has reported greater detail of how the Intelligence Community whistleblower went about bringing his complaint. We already knew, from previous reporting, that he or she first tried to go through the anonymous internal whistleblower complaint hotline at their own, home agency. This then triggered that agency’s counsel to coordinate with the White House Counsel’s Office, the National Security Council Counsel’s Office, and the Department of Justice. When the whistleblower learned of this, he or she decided they needed to find a way to get the concerns before Congress as soon as possible and this is where today’s New York Times‘ reporting starts off:
The Democratic head of the House Intelligence Committee, Representative Adam B. Schiff of California, learned about the outlines of a C.I.A. officer’s concerns that President Trump had abused his power days before the officer filed a whistle-blower complaint, according to a spokesman and current and former American officials.
The early account by the future whistle-blower shows how determined he was to make known his allegations that Mr. Trump asked Ukraine’s government to interfere on his behalf in the 2020 election. It also explains how Mr. Schiff knew to press for the complaint when the Trump administration initially blocked lawmakers from seeing it.
The C.I.A. officer approached a House Intelligence Committee aide with his concerns about Mr. Trump only after he had had a colleague first convey them to the C.I.A.’s top lawyer. Concerned about how that initial avenue for airing his allegations through the C.I.A. was unfolding, the officer then approached the House aide. In both cases, the original accusation was vague.
The House staff member, following the committee’s procedures, suggested the officer find a lawyer to advise him and file a whistle-blower complaint. The aide shared some of what the officer conveyed to Mr. Schiff. The aide did not share the whistle-blower’s identity with Mr. Schiff, an official said.
“Like other whistle-blowers have done before and since under Republican and Democratic-controlled committees, the whistle-blower contacted the committee for guidance on how to report possible wrongdoing within the jurisdiction of the intelligence community,” said Patrick Boland, a spokesman for Mr. Schiff.
Mr. Schiff’s aides followed procedures involving the C.I.A. officer’s accusations, Mr. Boland said. They referred the C.I.A. officer to an inspector general and advised him to seek legal counsel.
Mr. Schiff never saw any part of the complaint or knew precisely what the whistle-blower would deliver, Mr. Boland said.
“At no point did the committee review or receive the complaint in advance,” he said. He said the committee received the complaint the night before releasing it publicly last week and noted that came three weeks after the administration was legally mandated to turn it over to Congress. The director of national intelligence, Joseph Maguire, acting on the advice of his top lawyer and the Justice Department, had blocked the inspector general for the intelligence community, Michael Atkinson, from turning over the complaint sooner.
Much more at the link, some of it previously reported.
There’s nothing actually shocking here. The whistleblower, concerned he needed to get the information to Congress ASAP, approached a House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence to seek guidance on how to do so. That staffer told the whistleblower to make a formal complaint under the Intelligence Community Whistleblower Protection Act (ICWPA) to the appropriate inspector general – either the IG at their own agency or the Intelligence Community Inspector General. This is what the whistleblower did. He or she filed the complaint with Mark Atkinson, the Intelligence Community Inspector general.
Brad Moss, a national security lawyer who works with Mark Zaid, who is currently of counsel for the whistleblower’s attorney Andrew Bakaj, and who is walled off from the case so he can publicly comment, provides the Office of the Director of National Intelligence guidance for bringing a whistleblower complaint.
https://twitter.com/BradMossEsq/status/1179472717856333824
Here’s the link to the guidance at the ODNI website.
So while The New York Times‘ reporting is interesting, as it fleshes out the timeline and presents more context for all of us, there’s nothing irregular, strange, unprofessional, unethical, and/or illegal here. Enter Fox News’ John Roberts. Roberts had the first two questions at the President’s 2 PM EDT press conference. His second question teed the President up by framing this new reporting as a conspiracy between Congressman Schiff and the whistleblower, intimating that Congressman Schiff actually directed the complaint, fabricated the key accusations, and basically created his own need for oversight to drive impeachment. The President, as I’m sure you’re shocked to learn, took Roberts’ line of bullshit and ran with it.
Fox News gets the first question and Trump immediately goes on a lengthy rant. He ultimately accuses Adam Schiff of "a criminal act" and "treason." pic.twitter.com/97fJSFs6SQ
— Aaron Rupar (@atrupar) October 2, 2019
Kevin McCarthy, the House Minority Leader, is already pushing the President’s and John Robert’s take on The New York Times‘ reporting.
BREAKING –> Chairman Adam Schiff just got caught orchestrating with the whistleblower before the complaint was ever filed. Democrats have rigged this process from the start.https://t.co/oMdSGByYtf
— Kevin McCarthy (@SpeakerMcCarthy) October 2, 2019
As has RNC Chair Ronna Romney McDaniel.
This is a stunning indictment of this impeachment charade.
Schiff got a heads up on all this.
His team then advised the “whistleblower” how to proceed, like getting a Clinton/Schumer lawyer who donated to Biden.
Who’s colluding now?https://t.co/qLDM3AYHmO
— Ronna McDaniel (@RonnaMcDaniel) October 2, 2019
If I had to make a professional estimate, as soon as The New York Times‘ story was reported, a set of disinformation talking points was prepared and quickly circulated throughout the Republican, movement conservative, and conservative news and digital information media ecosystems framing the reporting this way. This is why Roberts’ framed the reporting in the way he did, in line with the disinformation now being pushed, which was done to tee up the President’s response at the press conference.
We’ve just watched the disinformation process in real time.
And Congressman Schiff has decided to push back directly on the disinformation.
When a whistleblower seeks guidance, staff advises them to get counsel and go to an IG.
That’s what they’re supposed to do.
Unlike a president pressing a foreign leader to dig up dirt on a political opponent.
That’s not what a president is supposed to do.
And we all know it. https://t.co/dzVAFGpMen
— Adam Schiff (@SenAdamSchiff) October 2, 2019
Open thread!
Citizen Alan
I am glad George Romney is not alive to see how vile and morally bankrupt the generation to follow him has become.
donnah
Push back, Schiff, and everyone else. Trump is livid and he’s going to direct all of his flunkies to pull out all the stops. The lies and misdirection will reach a fever pitch.
Push back, push back, push back. Don’t let them set the narrative!
PenandKey
And, once again, the NYT shows its true colors as a stenographer and propagandist outfit for the money classes, who have gone all in on the GOP to protect their wealth.
The fact that the whistleblower alerting Congress is explicitly allowed per the regulations they appear to have stringently followed will get lost in the noise, like always.
Elizabelle
Appreciate these posts, Adam. They are going to be keepers.
(Which is not to say I have read this one yet! ;-) Still on the ones below.
Roger Moore
The other critical point is that focusing on the process like this is fundamentally intended to distract from the substance of the complaint. Even if the whistle blower didn’t dot all his i’s and cross all his t’s, the evidence against Trump is still there.
jl
Anyone whose blood pressure permits, should watch to see if corporate news is successfully played by the knowing and repeated Trumpster and GOP lies, and if so, complain to their local station, or the outlet’s national headquarters. Interesting see if this new lie makes it as far as the Sunday news talkies. If (not Fox News reporters) do their jobs, it shouldn’t. If Shep Smith and Chris Wallace keep up their recent work, they might shoot it down inside Fox News itself , and the brass there will warn them again to lay off.
Cermet
Putin gets extra orgasms every time a thug congress-orc furthers dis-information thus dis-crediting and perverting our countries foundations. The thug party are criminals and need to be put down so it dies before our democracy does.
scott (the other one)
Who has what on whom at the New York Times? Sure, some of it can be ascribed to hippie-punching and some of it can be chalked up to its owners being part of the 1% of 1%ers and partly I’m sure it’s as simple as Trump being good for their circulation. But JFC…at some point the bad faith starts to feel like it’s so much bigger than all that.
LesGS
My dad was an FSO from the late ’50s through the ’80s. This is part of an email he wrote me after reading the whistle-blower’s memo published in the WaPo on 9/27.
“This a watershed document. I’m sure there’s a classified version, although this version was enough to get the oversight process started. I don’t believe the Administration can keep stonewalling Congress given the way this memo was pried out of the DNI and Justice. The drafter cited the relevant US Code in his first sentence. With the rest of Congress away on holiday, the back and forth between the three oversight committees and the Administration will get full spotlight.
On a lesser level, reading the memo sent me on a real nostalgia trip. Topic aside, it’s very well drafted and a model of the writing style I learned at Northwestern and polished up with 30 years of drafting and political analysis in the Foreign Service. The drafter is very careful to draw the lines between what he knows, what he doesn’t know and what he surmises. Except for putting it into a certified “dissent” channel addressed to what he knew were Democratic controlled committees, it has no policy slant. That’s what I tried for and what I tried to teach younger FSO’s when I had a division in the Bureau of Intelligence and Research.”
Our civil service is pushing back.
Another Scott
Twitter:
A perfectly reasonable question, given the Occupant.
Grrr….
(via Popehat)
Cheers,
Scott.
Kent
@jl:
There is a difference between “getting played” and “playing along”. If you are watching corporate news repeat these false “talking points” the real question you should be asking is whether they are “playing along” or “getting played”. In most cases it is the former which is the real problem.
Sebastian
What I’d like to see is a subpoena for preservation of communication records at the NYT.
Kraux Pas
There’s been a lot of speculation around here whether Trump knows the difference between right and wrong.
I’ve determined that he must know; if he didn’t, he would occasionally do the right thing simply on accident.
jl
Read that the first question to Finnish president at presser, from Finnish reporter, at the presser was what favors Trump asked of him, and what did he promise. And Labor in Australia is pressing for an investigation into what PM Scott Morrison said (subtext: promised) to Trump on the Australian call.
Edit: and have to say, hearing reporters ask real and impertinent questions to their leaders as opposed to corrupt BS we get from many (most?) of our corporate news reporters is very refreshing.
I wrote a little satirical dramatic scene yesterday on this here very blog to illustrate what idiots Trumpsters and Trump have to be in order to think foreign leaders are going to rush to do Trump’s bidding and got a little polite push back from a commenter. But I think these two examples back up my point. Trump and his gang of criminal fools are really stupid to think their running around asking for favors would accomplish anything.
People in other countries drawing the all too obvious conclusion, that any private conversation with Trump is an opportunity to inject corruption into their country and any cooperation would just be in invitation for domestic pesky and unwelcome questions and attacks. Morrison was a fool if he said anything to Trump other than ‘bugger off, wanker’, in plain language or disguised in diplomatic appropriate-speak.
Jeez, Trump and his gang are true fools. Dangerous and vicious fools, but still fools.
Kent
@LesGS: The history teacher down the hall from me is having his AP Government students dissect the whistleblower memo both for content and also for writing style as per how you describe. They are basically doing the same textual analysis of this document that one would do with Shakespere or Maya Angelou.
Kent
@Kraux Pas: Thanks.. . I’m going to use this with my MAGA relatives over Thanksgiving!
J R in WV
Seriously, First?!
I bet it’s just FYWP not working well today with all this activity.
Playing along is way the big problem, how much do you want to bet the White House had a heads up from Maggie, and conspired with the Faux guy to be the first questioner… I’d bet a crate of champagne. Well, white sparkling wind, anyways…
Our power is going on and off repeatedly, usually for just a few seconds. A contractor is working on the power line in the hollow, regularly schedules maintenance, and every time they need to switch over from a jump around the piece they’re working on, back to replaced parts, they drop our power just that long.
Which is all good, our generator has only come on once or twice, which takes 15 seconds. But there’s internet equipment that needs to reset when that happens, so we lose connectivity for, maybe a minute or so. And the A/C won’t run for several minutes after a power drop. And it’s 93 right now, not quite as bad as yesterday.
ETA: Of course NOT first… but we all knew that!
Jeffro
Jesus these people are fucking scumbags.
mrmoshpotato
@Roger Moore: They misused an Oxford comma! Throw it all out!
jl
@Kent: good point. Need to complain about either.
Adam L Silverman
@PenandKey: Actually if you read that whole article, it wasn’t out of line at all. Straight line reporting of the context and the timeline. Just because it is easily predictable that the President, his surrogates, and his supporters were going to turn this into disinformation and then weaponize it, doesn’t mean that you don’t report accurate information. And that’s what this article is.
rikyrah
Thanks Silverman. I have appreciated all these posts from you.
Kay
The problem for Trump and the NYTimes is the White House admitted it. They haven’t disputed anything the whistleblower wrote. In fact, they verified it.
Even if it were a conspiracy it would be a conspiracy to reveal something that the White House then admitted.
I feel like it’s absolutely perfect, however, that the NYTimes would focus on the process rather than the substance of the charge.
Which, again, is NOT in dispute. The whistleblowers allegations are no longer allegations. The parties in question admitted them. The whistleblower is probably thinking “WTF?! They admitted it! How am I even still a whistleblower?” :)
Adam L Silverman
@Roger Moore: The thing is that this whistleblower, unlike virtually every other one the news media or others keep citing, did 1) follow the law and 2) dot all the “i”s and cross all the “t”s.
J R in WV
Back on topic…
Adam says:
Actually, there is. Earlier in your piece you quote from the FTFNYT:
So for two weeks the White House, specifically Mr. Trump, was in violation of yet another legal requirement, which should still be shocking to everyone who believes in the rule of law, and that no one, not even the President, is above the law!
Kent
@jl: I knew some top national reporters during my days in government. Usually they are fucking sharp as hell and rarely actually get played. At least the print ones. The smart ones can scope out and predict who is going to say what 10 moves in advance. The network news talking heads, not so much.
They are not your friends. There is a reason why it is called the “News BUSINESS”
Chip Daniels
@donnah:
And always, always, work the refs.
Because they can’t be allowed to have pressure from just one side.
Kay
So is the President now denying the words he spoke in the call or the call itself? This is a conspiracy to do…what? Reveal the truth?
Since the moment they released that transcript everything they have said and done is to take it back. But they can’t. It’s done. They’re trying to manage time and space at this point- literally change reality.
Betty Cracker
The wingnuts are reacting exactly as you’d expect in response to the NYT article. But once again, I have to ask: why did Trump release the not-transcript of the call? That’s the really damning thing that is difficult to squirm out of — asking for “a favor” and naming the Bidens — and he could have gotten away with not releasing call notes by claiming that it sets a bad precedent, which it kind of does.
If the public saw the complaint only, the lie about it being a plot led by Schiff would be a lot easier to sell…
Kelly
I’m impressed by Mr Schiff. He seems to be the person we needed for the events were caught up in.
Adam L Silverman
@jl: @Kent: I only have NBC/MSNBC on streaming while I was working and they most certainly were not being played. Ali Velshi repeatedly called the President’s remarks lies. I’m sure right now Nicole Wallace is not amused, but I’m recording that to watch later.
eric
Let’s all admit the inevitable: the WB will be “outed,” either by others or self. The WB will testify or be interviewed in front of TV cameras. Trump is banking on this person being a terrible witness. Normally, i would argue that this means Trump knows who it is and is ready for the WB’s poor performance. Here, however, I do not think that Trump and his bad lawyers are that strategic. Much of this may rise and fall on how good of a witness the WB truly is. PS It would not shock me that Barr is overseas looking into the WB, just as much as the Russia stuff.
Kent
@Betty Cracker:
I don’t think they even fucking care. It’s like the Mueller report. They know they can just lie about it enough and muddy up the narrative enough and eventually people will just shrug…”both sides” and say it’s time to move on. It’s exactly like how the NRA and gun control works. Delay and obfuscate just long enough and eventually the air goes out of the balloon.
Adam L Silverman
@jl: As I wrote the other night, if you were looking to cause a legitimacy crisis in multiple countries that could, potentially, bring down the governments in them, this would be a good way to do it.
Adam L Silverman
@rikyrah:
I too will miss them once I’m gone.
Kent
@Adam L Silverman: These may be signs that we are finally reaching a watershed moment and turning point with this presidency. The press are no longer eating up the bullshit. Even 6 months ago during the Mueller report they seemed mostly focused not on the content of the report but the political narrative about it. This seems different.
trollhattan
We interrupt this homage to the president* for braking Florida Man news.
We now rejoin our disintegrating government, already in progress.
hells littlest angel
Remember, foreign leaders, “everything Trump touches turns to shit” doesn’t stop at the water’s edge.
Adam L Silverman
@J R in WV: That is shocking, but it was shocking when it was first reported. We’ve known this information for a while now.
jl
@Adam L Silverman: Good to hear. Actually, in most of the Sunday news talky clips I watched earlier this week, the corporate news media celebs cut through the BS directly and quickly. Hope they keep it up.
To repeat my theory about one reason for when the tide turns with the media. If most of the corporate news media celebrities think investigative reporting is sitting by the phone waiting for some big shot to call up with something good, the hacks and pols need to keep calling up with something good. You feed them BS that they can’t spin without looking like dopes, you start to run into problems.
Need to do regular maintenance on the quality of the BS you put out, is it spinnable? That’s an increasing problem when you have to go with whatever toxic nonsense Trump vomits out on any given day.
rikyrah
@Kay:
And now, we’ve found out that stuff that the Whistlebower didn’t even know – Pompeo being on the phone call.
I listened to the Whistleblower Complaint on audio. That was one well-written document. Not a word wasted. To the point and easy to understand.
Fair Economist
This is a very good series, and would be good for a government or media class.
rikyrah
@Kay:
Vogel and the NYT are still mad that they will be clowned for letting the ACTUAL story get away, because they want to push a both-sides bullshyt story on Biden.
kindness
Bullshit is all Republicans have on this impeachment and they are going to scream and throw it everywhere.
Kay
The Trump Administration really can’t credibly conduct foreign policy. The Finnish reporter asked what everyone is thinking “did he ask you for anything?”
They’re not credible.
jl
@Adam L Silverman: I think Trump is ignorant and dumb enough to really believe that there are suitcase sized ‘servers’ buried in the Ukrainian woods or under Ayers rock, and missing pizza joint basement hidden in some country that could be much nicer to him if it wanted to. And finding those would make all this not niceness to him go away.
He’s the prefect dupe for all the foreign leaders, mostly Putin, who have bought time shares in his presidency.
Adam L Silverman
@trollhattan: Get back to me when someone does this and uses an alligator to cut the brake lines.
Amateurs.
Elizabelle
@Adam L Silverman:
What??
Betty Cracker
This is shallow of me, I know, but I’m glad Rep. Jamie Raskin rethought his hairdo and hope he sticks with the present look for the duration of the impeachment.
Adam L Silverman
@jl: That too.
Kay
@rikyrah:
I keep going back to that fact. But for the whistleblower the NYTimes would have covered this as a Biden scandal and all the rest would have followed. The whole thing turned on one person. Remarkable, how fragile it is. It’s terrifying, really.
Adam L Silverman
@Elizabelle: Just being a smartass. Also, I’m pretty sure the site rebuild will actually cause the heat death of the universe rather than fixing our technical issues with WP. So pick whichever explanation you prefer.
germy
Adam L Silverman
@Betty Cracker: You didn’t like the “I go to Treebeard’s Ent-leman’s Barbers” look?
rikyrah
@Kay:
And, I never forget that, Kay. Thanks for pointing it out. And, it’s how I always present the story elsewhere.
I don’t believe they SHOULD be allowed to live it down.
It’s the SAME PHUCKING BULLSHYT THAT THEY DID IN 2016.
Adam L Silverman
@germy: Oopsie.
rikyrah
@germy:
The State asked for 28 years.
Kay
The funniest part to me is we all know it wasn’t just Ukraine. Fat fucking chance. If you believe that I have a bridge to sell you.
germy
@Elizabelle:
I think Adam meant he will disappear back into the Deep State once Trump is defeated.
That is, of course, if the check from Soros clears.
rikyrah
@Kent:
Excellent teacher.
Elizabelle
@Adam L Silverman: You reassure me. Worried you were going deep undercover somewhere.
Or into witness protection. All hail — WB!
germy
@rikyrah:
Elizabelle
@germy: Bring those texts out. Sunlight is a good disinfectant.
Reminds me, we haven’t heard much about the Border Patrol Facebook page group lately, have we?
The difference between a court proceeding and a corrupted government department.
germy
@Adam L Silverman:
Remember the photo they found of her posing with her family, and one of the guys is flashing the OK white power sign?
Elizabelle
Also, where is baud? I miss him.
Adam L Silverman
@germy: That guy is going to pay what he owes! I’ve got expenses…
germy
@Elizabelle: I remember the head of the border patrol expressing “shock” that the account existed… and then they found she was active on it.
Yarrow
I’ve been swamped all afternoon. What is happening? Trump had a crazy press conference? What was Jaime Raskin just talking about? There is so much news I can hardly keep up.
Kelly
@Kay:
My dear departed father used to say “It’s better to be lucky than good” when things worked out better than expected. Our luck has turned.
jl
Trump is certainly whacked out in the head enough to think is reasonable to make outrageous requests to a foreign leader to dig up some dirt in the recent past in their own country in order to get himself out a jam he created for himself. They don’t seem to realize that almost every time, the foreign leader will just think “Just who do these nutcases think they are?”
Kay
@rikyrah:
The book writing and selling is a disaster. It’s a conflict. They’re withholding information they gather and waiting until they can put it in a book. It’s going to happen after Trump leaves. They’ll all be selling the shit they didn’t tell us when it mattered. It seems to me so blatant and obvious a conflict of interest with their readers that I can’t imagine it doesn’t occur to them.
It isn’t just “information”. It’s TIMELY information. Would have been nice for the public to know the President was insisting innocent people should be SHOT. They’re sitting on it and then selling it when they deem it’s most personally profitable. Doling it out for an additional fee. They should have to decide! Be an independent contractor or work for this newspaper. They can’t serve two separate markets at the same time.
Adam L Silverman
@Elizabelle: I regularly get asked if I’ll deploy for short (few weeks), medium term (few months), or long term (a year). So far no one who has asked has been able to actually come up with the requested deployment, but eventually I’ll be off camping somewhere for an extended period. I’m actually on standby again right now. Waiting for them to get back to me with dates and other details. They will and I’ll go or they won’t and I won’t go.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
So that’s the entirety of their defense “yes, Trump broke the law, but the Democrats aren’t perfect saints”. Pretty damn weak.
PJ
@Adam L Silverman: The funny (not “ha ha”) thing about all of this is that, if the Soviets had been able to remove their ideological blinders and realize that all they had to do is spread a little (or a lot) of money around in the right places, they could have brought Western governments down for a small fraction of what they were paying in defense costs. (I am reminded that this is one of the strategies the Persians used to keep the Greeks out of their hair.) Of course, social media has played a large role in it, too, and that is a new tool.
Adam L Silverman
@germy: Yes I do.
germy
@Kay: Back in the 1920s newspapermen would just write satirical Broadway plays, and leave it at that.
Adam L Silverman
@Elizabelle: I think he flounced out of here last week. He didn’t like one of my posts. Commented indignantly. I informed him we weren’t forcing him to be here. And he soon because scarce.
rikyrah
@Another Scott:
that question is on point
waspuppet
They will turn themselves inside out to keep you from remembering that Trump admitted everything.
Everything. Every. Thing.
Adam L Silverman
@PJ: Doing what you describe was actually in their manuals. They were trying, they just didn’t have the tools back then. If Facebook and Twitter and the Internet had existed, they’d have been far more successful.
Kelly
@Adam L Silverman: My cousin, a retired Special Forces CSM, always told us he was just a middle manager in a huge bureaucracy that happened to go camping a lot.
PJ
@Elizabelle: @Adam L Silverman: I hear his campaign was in disarray and he had to replace some key people at the top. Or did I hear he just had emergency heart surgery? Might keep him lying low for a few days.
Elizabelle
@Adam L Silverman: Oh no! I missed all of that. (Was traveling.)
Come back baud.
I think this whole Trump experience has been a real slog for all of us.
gvg
In the last couple of days, I have realized why so many Americans don’t realize what Trump did was wrong. They have always been so ignorant of what diplomacy is and how useful it it, that this is what they have been imagining has been going on all along with all our Presidents. They also don’t actually understand how markets work even though most think they are Capitalist. I don’t know how to cure this much ignorance.
Yarrow
Oh, great. Just saw on CNN that Tom Steyer made the debate. Yuck.
Adam L Silverman
@Kelly: The large organization and camping were accurate, the middle manager part was an understatement.
A Ghost To Most
I got stuff to do, preparing for a trip to Ouray for our 40th, but I can’t tear myself away from the ongoing multi-car pileup. If the last several days have been wild, today is just weird.
Millard Filmore
@Kay:
The difference between newsprint and news.
Jay Noble
A slight tangent – could “covfefe” be the codename server? That baffling little typo showed up just about the time the upgrading of clearances is said to have begun.
“Despite the constant negative press covfefe” Maybe someone smacked Trump is why the tweet ended abrubtly
trnc
@Betty Cracker:
Seems reasonable, given the shallowness we are currently surrounded with.
Fair Economist
@Kay: Tell it, Kay.
I’m hoping, however, that the changes in media ecology work to our benefit here. Book promotions and publications don’t drive awareness much anymore – people buy nonfiction books on subjects or by authors they were already interested in. Nobody bought the Mueller report because they’d just learned about it or because of quotes or reviews. To get people to buy a book in October they need to have gotten their info into lead stories weeks or months in advance. Hopefully, by waiting until their scoop was yesterday’s news before revealing it, they will have killed interest in their book and so others will be more responsible in the future.
Sab
@Adam L Silverman: Whistleblower followed the law and rules, dotted all “i”s and “t”s, and thereby probably blew career. How is that right ? Decent yes. Object lesson to successors, not so much.
Yarrow
Yikes. This seems like a way to send him back to the hospital:
MJS
It won’t be the NYT, and it certainly won’t be Fox, but hopefully some other media outlets start to catch on and consistently report that all the Trump cartel has is process complaints, and poorly concocted ones at that. To paraphrase, when you’re complaining about “the process”, instead of stating your case, you’re losing. Most thinking people have tuned out the process complaints. It’s akin to the coach of a team losing 50-0 throwing out the red flag to have a holding call reviewed.
Elizabelle
@Kay: I think we should contact the NY Times about that.
Maybe even start privately with Krugman, who would be a friendly ear, and tell you/us who would be most amenable to a discussion on that.
Dean Baquet is a clueless disaster, regrettably, and it seems to me a lot of the crap issues from the publisher’s suite.
Another avenue might be contacting former NY Times folks — David Cay Johnston comes to mind — and seeing if they will start bringing that up. Either in their writing and social media, or even in a backchannel with their remaining contacts at the NY Times.
Jay Rosen too. We should think of people we could approach.
The FTF NYTimes is off the rails, and why are we the only people seeing this? (Very honestly, I don’t think we are, but we’re the only people I see discussing it.) I truly don’t see that level of profiteering at the WaPost, although maybe it exists there too. Obviously it’s Woodward’s home, but expectations are low for him anyway.
What Have The Romans Ever Done for Us?
@Betty Cracker: He’s my rep. How’d he do?
Adam L Silverman
@Sab: It is a real concern. Unfortunately the law is misnamed and needs serious adjustments.
Yarrow
@Elizabelle:
Clueless seems to be doing a lot of heavy lifting there. It seems to me he knows exactly what he’s doing and he keeps doing it after it’s pointed out to him time and time again. The more relevant issue to me is why is he doing that?
Adam L Silverman
@Yarrow: My money is on Sirota having just taken out a life insurance policy on Bernie with a 7 figure payout.
germy
@Yarrow: Just following orders.
If he doesn’t follow orders he’ll be replaced.
Yarrow
Heh. This made me laugh:
Elizabelle
@Yarrow: Yeah, you’re right. Baquet is doing what the publishers, the Sulzbergers want. (And whoever owns/supports the NYTimes, that we don’t know about.)
The most recent Sulzberger retiree, Pinch. was Clinton Derangement Central. I would kick that guy if I ever met him.
germy
@Adam L Silverman: Not Jane?
the Conster
@Yarrow:
The video was from yesterday, he was admitted on an emergency basis today. Clearly he was suffering. He needs to go to one of his 3 homes and stay there.
Amir Khalid
Dang. Liverpool just beat Red Bull Salzburg 4-3 at Anfield in Champions League Group E. Crazy game. Liverpool were cruising at 3-0 up, and then Salzburg levelled it at 3-3 in the second half, and then Mo Salah scored again to make it 4-3, and then Liverpool barely hung on for the three points. Whew!
germy
@the Conster:
Yarrow
@Adam L Silverman: I think it’s Wilmer’s ego. Can’t look weak and can’t quit the adoring crowds.
@germy: Yep. That’s my take too.
@Elizabelle: Like I’ve been saying for a long time, look up the food chain at the money. Guys like Baquet are just hired hands. Look upstairs and see who runs the place. Who owns them? Then you’ll figure out motivations.
Yarrow
@the Conster: Thanks for the correction. I took it to be true since Bloomberg tweeted it. Guess they got it wrong. He really needs to be in the hospital or at the very least home resting.
Elizabelle
@Sab: Think of all the career government stars — Sally Yates, a long long list of good people — who have been ejected from their jobs that they were doing on our behalf, at the behest of Trump and his cronies. McCabe. Strzok.
There has been such a brain drain from our government. Everything that Trump touches dies.
Maybe the whistleblower saw that and decided to make use of his/her limited time left; go out with a bang.
You will recall the acting DNI made some comment about “however long he should serve” in his preamble last week. Because it might have been 3:00 p.m.
donnah
@Betty Cracker:
OMG, thank you, Betty! I know it’s shallow, too, looksism and all, but honestly, it was impossible to hear his words because his hair was completely distracting, as in WTF is on his head?
So yeah, color me shallow.
Matt McIrvin
@gvg: Believing that all politicians are equally dirty in the same way is the kind of foolishness that makes people feel smart. A lot of people fall prey to it and it particularly seems to be the chosen fallback defense of right-wingers presented with evidence that their chosen politicians are corrupt. It’s also Putin’s favored propaganda strategy– never mind how good I am, the other side is just as bad– and it goes back to Soviet days. Works equally well on far-leftists looking for reasons to hate liberals.
germy
rikyrah
@Yarrow:
how?
and, what does he bring to anything?
Betty Cracker
@What Have The Romans Ever Done for Us?: Raskin was in a press scrum after the inspector general meeting. He did fine, but the whole situation is beyond weird — the IG turned over to the committee an envelope that contains conspiracy theory propaganda? No one seems to know where it came from or what it significance is, if anything, but it’s an odd business.
Yarrow
@rikyrah: I guess he met the criteria. Jake Tapper said he qualified and it was his first debate.
He brings rich white guy. We’re so short of those in government.
rikyrah
@germy:
That doesn’t signal SWING voter to me.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Kelly: He’s my CongressCritter and a good one. Interesting thing is that one of the reasons he got elected in the first place is his predecessor was one of the Clinton impeachment managers and got the perception of spending more time on that than his district.
Quinerly
@Betty Cracker: we need a separate FP post on this. I’m very confused.
Yarrow
@Betty Cracker: @Quinerly: I couldn’t follow that at all. Came in in the middle of it. What was it even about?
Adam L Silverman
@rikyrah: They have some rather unique personal preferences… That kind of swing.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@jl: The pizza joint’s basement is under Ayers rock.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Adam L Silverman: There’s a shortage of alligators since Trump bought them all up for his moat.
Elizabelle
NY Daily News reporting Amber Guyger got 10 year sentence.
germy
@rikyrah: It’s a joke about what the NYT does.
Kent
@rikyrah: No, that’ actually what the fucking NYT did a few days ago. And they were crucified for it everywhere:
alternet.org/2019/09/the-new-york-times-published-a-story-alleging-moderate-swing-voters-are-repelle…
Kay
@Fair Economist:
I never watch cable anymore but I happened to catch the actual Vogel comment where he said Biden was the story. Amazing to watch. A full-out promotion of his upcoming “reporting”. He said “there’s a story there”. Da-dum. To be revealed.
It’s just really unfair. Either he has it or he doesn’t. Announcing he has it but not revealing it? How is Biden supposed to respond to that? They did the same thing with the emails. for months. “There is a story here”. But there never was. There was just the original charge- she put the emails in the wrong place. They didn’t have anything more than that and they never GOT anything more. They didn’t even fulfill the promise they made. What was Clinton supposed to defend on? The scandal they might find in the emails?
NotMax
Oh my stars and garters. Because the NYT puts part of an article below the fold doesn’t make that practice a bad thing (when it comes to the front page here).
;)
Elizabelle
@Kent: You know, we should keep a file here on the blog somewhere for this. Maybe an open blogpost where we can link in all the insane and irresponsible journalism clickbaited out by the paper of record.
Seeing this stuff all at one time would be staggering.
Could we have a Fuck the Fucking New York Times post, or file?
rikyrah
Murdering cop only got 10 years
What an insult
Elizabelle
@rikyrah: It should have been more, but I am relieved it was not significantly less. Could have been 3 to 5.
I wonder how long a ten year sentence actually is behind bars, in Texas.
Yarrow
@Kay:
Are you referring to him saying soldiers should shoot immigrants if they throw rocks at them? I thought that was public knowledge months ago.
SiubhanDuinne
Ten years. JFC.
patrick II
@Adam L Silverman:
I agree with you about the story, but not the NYTimes theet that followed. That was very misleading.
Quinerly
@Yarrow: this thread is annoying to me.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Elizabelle: The New York Times is garbage.
Yarrow
@Quinerly: It’s an open thread. Talk about whatever you want!
Peale
@Kay: Today: When my bombshell story on Biden comes out, he is toast. Why doesn’t he save us time and drop out now?
Tomorrow: Why is that perfidious Biden still in the race, when I have my bombshell story coming out?
Friday: The gall of that man to hang around when there’s a bombshell ticking right now.
Saturday: Most clueless politician ever. Has he dropped out yet?
Sunday: Biden speaks to crowd, and doesn’t seem to notice the cloud of smoke hanging over him.
Monday: Liberals are so dumb. They still go to rallies to support Biden even though there’s a story coming out. Why don’t they just stay home?
I think they did this once to Governor Patterson in New York: Basically they ran stories each day wondering when he was going to resign over the scandal that no one had published.
Amir Khalid
@Elizabelle:
Guyger will serve less than that as long as she stays out of trouble in jail, I suppose. The main thing is, her conviction is on the record, along with her history of racism and indiscipline as a cop. She’s a felon, and she’s never going to have a gun and badge again. The length of the sentence almost doesn’t matter.
Kay
This is very familiar to me because I say it weekly to my juvenile delinquent clients, who are absolute sticklers about process :)
“But she called it in! And she’s bad!” Yes, yes she did. And then you admitted it. Because you did it.
Elizabelle
Good god.
Because they’re all criminal. Jebus.
I thought in first seconds that maybe it was so they could reunite the families with their detained children. But no. It’s more Mexicans as rapists shit.
J R in WV
@Adam L Silverman:
All true, but I don’t think I will ever become inured to blatant, obvious, open law-breaking by those expected to both enforce and adhere to the rule of law.
These folks are so different from even the Evil Bush — Cheney administration, who tried to deal their savage illegality late at night in the dark. Trump and his minions would really prefer to do their dirty work on live Faux TV broadcasts, which continues to astonish me. I just need bigger doses of cynicism, I guess…
Quinerly
I know the purity ponies are hating on the media right now. but Howard Fineman and Chuck Todd are sounding some alarms
Kent
@Elizabelle: Media Matters does a pretty good job of it. They probably need to open up a special section just for the NYT.
Quinerly
@Elizabelle: pay attention!
Yutsano
@Adam L Silverman: Are you sure you’re not my friend Wally?
I tease. Wally* is actual active duty. But I swear that kid has been to about every hot spot around the globe.
*Wally is his surname BTW.
Elizabelle
@Quinerly: What are they saying?
J R in WV
@rikyrah:
It’s also the same fucking bullshit they did in 2003-2004 to foment an illegal war with Iraq, for no legal reason.
It’s the same BS they did around the Gulf of Tonkin events, to legalize (in Amerikan terms) the illegal war in Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos.
I won’t go further back into time, but NYT has always been in favor of authoritarian dictators everywhere, and war is good for Business, don’t you know, of course you do!!
NotMax
@rikyrah
Couple of points:
TS (the original)
I’m sure theis has already been said – but my first thought – no doubt the NYT knew they were setting up GOP talking points. It is what they do
Amir Khalid
@Amir Khalid:
By which I mean, no length of time in jail is going to restore the status quo ante: Botham Jean will not get back the life this ugly reckless fool took from him. Ten years minus whatever for good behaviour will have to do.
Yarrow
@Amir Khalid: According to news reports, she is ineligible for parole.
TS (the original)
@Elizabelle: Whatever happened to the life without parole that most murderers seem to receive in the US?
Quinerly
@Yarrow: I guess I’m generally annoyed with just about everyone about now, except NP. I’m not fond of the NYT from the the last election and other MSM outlets. But I’m weary of the attacks. I feel like the tide is turning. Alarms are being sounded. I’m annoyed by the hashing and re hashing here. I’ll see myself out….
jl
@?BillinGlendaleCA: ” The pizza joint’s basement is under Ayers rock.”
You should take pix with one of your special cameras.Trump will give you the Medal of Freedom.
sdhays
@Kay: Indeed. Something that has been difficult for me to comprehend is how this story was actually reported months ago, but the political press didn’t seem to invest any time in digging into the implications of Rudy shuttling all over Europe meeting with foreign governments as a personal representative of the President*. But NOW it’s a big deal.
Obviously, now we have the WB actually spelling it all out for our lazy reporters who are basically just typing up what other people are now leaking (so they know that they don’t have to connect the dots themselves), but it’s not exactly “news” that this is what Trump was up to if you actually looked at the implications of Rudy’s travels when it was reported at the time.
Jeffro
@PJ:
They had to be inspired, in an evil way, by the ROI that our corporate overlords were getting on their investment in Congressmen, Senators, and the like.
“For $20K in campaign contributions, you get $20M in tax breaks? Are you keeeeding me? That’s how things work over there, now?”
And seriously (reasons not excuses here people) how could they not? That ‘fruit’ is so low hanging you have to dig it up
Elizabelle
@Quinerly: Don’t go.
@TS (the original): I don’t know that much about murder sentences. (Any other Juicers?) You can bet a cop killer** would have gotten life without parole, or even the death sentence.
Ten years is insufficient for shooting someone who was sitting on a sofa eating ice cream, but juries are so bad at convicting cops of much of anything that a sentence in the double digits is a relief to me.
ETA: Cop killer. Um, we are now in criminal defense lawyer territory, if you get my drift. But I speak of someone who kills a law officer.
For example, and very tragically, a “career criminal” (their description) shot a Sikh police officer in the back at a traffic stop in Houston very recently. You can bet that guy is facing the possibility of death penalty charges.
schrodingers_cat
Off topic question for Ms Manners.
If you can’t go to a funeral (Its on Monday Morning) what is the proper thing to do. Go and pay condolences later at their home? Take flowers and a card?
ETA: This is for our neighbor’s wife. She died of complications due to cancer. Our neighbor had become good friends with my husband and helped him plant trees in the front yard. We exchanged gifts at Christmas. We didn’t know the wife too well since she was ailing.
NotMax
@BillinGlendaleCA
High speed rail trams run hourly through the center of the Earth to Jade Helm station under an abandoned Walmart in Texas.
Amir Khalid
@Yarrow:
It is what it is. All the living can do today is put a killer away for the time the jury decided she deserves, and remember a good man killed for no reason.
Yarrow
@Quinerly: I’m glad to see the MSM asking some tougher questions. I think we are all poorly served by the media consolidation that’s been happening and ownership at top levels is something that is worth looking at. We need to know who is pulling the strings of our fourth estate, just like we need to know who owns our elected officials.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@Kent: Those aren’t Republicans, those are Trump groupies.
Fair Economist
@Quinerly: It is true there is some movement in the media. But it’s still far less than it should be.
Also, the rightwing strategy of constantly attacking everything the press does they don’t like seems to work. I’m up to try it.
Amir Khalid
@?BillinGlendaleCA:
Uluru. That is the name of the sacred site, which should never have been opened to tourism by the white man.
Jeffro
@Yarrow: @rikyrah: Here’s hoping he just wants his 15 minutes of fame to…say exactly what the entire rest of the Dem field is already saying. Fight climate change. Impeach trumpov. Medicare for All (Who Want It) (Maybe) (I Dunno). SUCH HUGE DIFFERENCES!
Come on, DNC, raise the bar up to a whopping 5% in polls or something. Let’s get on with this, we’ve got a war to win.
Fair Economist
@Enhanced Voting Techniques: We know that. So did the NYT. The Times portrayed them as swing voters anyway in a big promoted piece. They lied, deliberately, and that is the problem.
Vhh
@Betty Cracker: “These guys are not all that smart, and things got out of hand.”
Fair Economist
@Jeffro: Nah, he’s running to save his Trump tax cuts. He’s just doing it in a way that won’t help Trump get re-elected, unlike Schultz, which I suppose means he’s at least still basically human.
J R in WV
@rikyrah:
Please recalibrate your sarcasm detector, perhaps?
Yarrow
@schrodingers_cat: The usual thing is to bring food. Especially if it’s the wife who passed away (sexist, but that’s the the general thing). Everyone is different in what they can handle. Putting a card in the mailbox or just dropping off flowers or food is also okay. Family may be in town so you might be able to ring the doorbell and hand over food and card if husband can’t handle guests.
Card, food, flowers, donation to relevant charity. It’s all good. Since it’s cancer it sounds like it’s not completely unexpected so they may be a bit more prepared for it all.
NotMax
@Jeffro
Incremental steps.
Quinerly
@Fair Economist: thanks. Appreciate your piping in. I’m not in a good head space today. Tired of the attacks on the media. I live in a world that I am capable of sorting thru it. After a while, if we continue to attack the media we sound like Trumpists.
Kent
@Enhanced Voting Techniques:
What’s the difference? I didn’t think there was one.
Jeffro
@Fair Economist: Eh, I haven’t heard word one from his many ads about preserving tax cuts or anything. I think he was beating the ‘impeach’ drum starting quite a while back. My issue with him is, ‘Tom, we’ve got this covered – no need to buy your way into a debate here’. He’s not offering a single thing that Dems aren’t already doing/working on/pushing for.
‘We’ve got this, Tom. Go find something else meaningful to do with your bucks, like supporting Stacey Abrams’ anti-voter suppression efforts’
Quinerly
@Yarrow: great comment. Thank you.
debbie
@donnah:
Schiff’s tweet won’t cut it. Not strong enough and not forceful enough.
I did laugh when I heard Trump bellow that Schiff should be tried for treason “for saying horrible things.” Perhaps it’s time for Trump to self-impeach for saying horrible things every day.
MattF
I recently found out about this Twitter bot. Scroll down a bit and you’ll see the concept.
dmsilev
Alexandra Petri explains Trump’s strategic brilliance:
Kent
Folks:
10 years in a Texas prision with possibility of parole would be a pretty big fucking sentence in just about any other Western democracy. Our perceptions are all distorted to fuck here in the US by the 3-strikes life sentences that get handed out like candy here in the US, especially to minorities, which is why we have more prisoners than all the other western democracies put together.
10 years in prison is a LONG fucking time. And it’s progress. What we need to be doing is rethinking how we give out life sentences like candy, especially to people of color. No other civilized country comes close to doing that. It isn’t civilized or normal.
NotMax
@schrodingers_cat
Might check (with the funeral home?) if there is an “in lieu of flowers” request by the family. As it is a neighbor, a condolence call accompanied by “if there is anything we can do, please let us know.”
PJ
@Matt McIrvin: In the Cold War days, this was called “whataboutism” or “whataboutery”, because whenever a Western critic pointed out, say, show trials, or the invasion of Hungary, or the invasion of Czechoslovakia, the Soviets would respond, “Well, what about Jim Crow? What about Vietnam?” And, of course, Jim Crow and the Vietnam War were very bad things, but these arguments did lead a lot of far lefties to say, “Both sides are equally bad (but of course the Communists mean well and we don’t)”, and to become knee-jerk anti-American everything (like our own Bob in Portland).
This same argument was used by Trump, when Bill O’Reilly described Putin as a “killer”, he responded: “There are a lot of killers. We’ve got a lot of killers. What do you think, our country’s so innocent?”
debbie
@schrodingers_cat:
Both or either. If your husband can attend the funeral, he can convey your condolences and you can follow up with card, casserole, or flowers. If you’re familiar with his food habits, food would probably be appreciated, especially with family members around.
J R in WV
@schrodingers_cat:
Often there’s a visitation or wake prior to the actual funeral. Otherwise, yes, drop by the home and hug people and regret their loss. Especially for a neighbor…
Patricia Kayden
The NYT’s framing makes it appear that Rep Schiff did something sneaky. He didn’t.
Quinerly
@Elizabelle: you know where to find me. ?
Plus, I’m working on a Chaco Canyon and/or Bisti Wilderness and/or Mesa Verde and/or Canyon de Chelly meet up. How grand would that be? I’m cranky with the thread. That is all. ?
Quinerly
@Patricia Kayden: link?
Mnemosyne
@Kraux Pas:
It’s not that he doesn’t know what other people consider to be right and wrong. It’s that he thinks those rules don’t apply to him.
NotMax
@dmsilev
It ain’t chess. It’s 52 pick-up.
TS (the original)
@schrodingers_cat: I would visit before the funeral – unless it is very close to the death. I would usually take flowers but baking is an alternative. I do live in Australia & things could be done differently here. After the funeral I would consider making a meal/s if it was a close relationship.
Jay
JPL
@Yarrow: Thanks .. That’s what I thought.
The Lodger
@rikyrah: That report was as clear, concise, simple, and understandable as you’ll ever see. If the WB can speak anywhere near as well as he or she can write, they’ll be an effective witness.
J R in WV
@Quinerly:
We’ve been to Chaco Canyon and Canyon de Chelly, which are stupendous, both of them, in very different ways. Our Navajo guide to Canyon de Chelly was a great example of knowing the history of the Navajo national park, and Chaco Canyon is so full of the ancient people and their remains. The Park office has a great set of scientific books about the archeological research at the many sites, I read several of them after our visit. Great old history!
Still have so many places to visit out west!
JPL
@schrodingers_cat: One time I brought breakfast pastries because there were several extra people staying at the house. That was well received. Another time I went to a bakery and delivered bread and rolls. Most people get plenty of casseroles.
A donation for the Cancer Society is always appreciated .
Kent
@Jay: What are Wagner mercs doing in Lybia? Is this the same group that made the horrible mistake of taking on US Special Forces in Syria a couple years ago and got massacred?
debbie
@SiubhanDuinne:
Just read about your upcoming surgery and am hoping your recovery is a speedy one.
Quinerly
Relevant.
www-m.cnn.com/2019/10/02/politics/state-department-inspector-general-briefing-congress/?r=https%3A%2…
Yarrow
@TS (the original): I agree with the idea of bringing food by later. There is a lot of activity initially and often a lot of food. A week or so later the activity slows down, the reality of it sets in, and it’s nice to have someone stop by with some food and/or a visit. Maybe also some flowers at that time to brighten up the place. Since you’re neighbors just keeping in touch so he’s not alone can be good. Not sure how old he is but if he’s older he might also benefit from company. Isolation is a big problem for seniors.
JPL
@SiubhanDuinne: What surgery? ugh I was hoping that you could do without.
Adam L Silverman
@Yutsano: As far as I know I am not, nor have I ever been, your friend Wally.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@jl: Well, first I’d have to get to Australia; that ain’t happening in this life*.
Ah, that means I’d have to be in the same room at Trump, no thanks.
*Not a lack of desire, just lack of means.
rikyrah
@Kay:
I’m glad that I am not the only one mad about those phucking book excerpts about what he wanted to do at the border. I got angrier and angrier when I read the tweets with the phucking excerpts. I was like..
You didn’t think that we should know what he wanted for mostly women and children???
Phuck you and your book.
NotMax
There’s a lot to unpack in this piece. The Man Behind The State Dept. IG’s ‘Urgent’ Allegations
Unsaid and not even hinted at but I immediately suspect Pence’s fingers on Mr. String’s appointment.
Adam L Silverman
@schrodingers_cat: You politely let them know why you can’t be at the actual funeral and you go for whatever memorial, celebration of life, wake, and/or shiva at the home or other venue. And if they’re Jewish: no flowers!
NotMax
Hee hee.
Jay
Chetan Murthy
@Kraux Pas:
The traitorous piece of shit has *often* exhibited “consciousness of guilt”. Sure, sometimes he’s too stupid, or too deluded, or too lazy, or too *whatever* to do it. But he does it often enough, that it’s clear he OFTEN knows the difference between right and wrong.
Another Scott
@Adam L Silverman: Entropy Man.
;-)
(The campus newspaper at the University of Dayton had a comic called “Entropy Man” in the late 1970s. I’ve not been able to find it since.)
Cheers,
Scott.
Jay
@Kent:
They were doing maintenence, drone operations and combat training for Haftar’s LNA,
Then because “on to Tripoli” isn’t going well, and Haftar’s ISIL and Tribal allies have their own agendas,
The Wagner Merc’s were moved to frontline tasks like sniping and operating mortars, and got smoked by the GNA Militias and Turkish Drones.
Putin is using Wagner Merc’s to chase control of oil and gas programs across Africa by providing weapons, training, financing and “internal” security. Diamond and Gold mines as well.
So is China/Eric Prince, but they are going after the rare earths and other minerals.
Jay
Jay
Cckids
@schrodingers_cat: Speaking as someone who’s lost family members recently, food/vouchers for food, or other tangible, helpful items were so, so much more welcome than flowers. Being surrounded by dying memorial bouquets was horrible.
Elizabelle
@Cckids: Yeah and no lilies! We had those at my mother’s funeral and they just smelled like something meant to cover up formaldehyde. It was the smell of death. Hated them.
Food and companionship is best. And invite him over for dinner, when you can. He will be tired, lonely, and hungry.
Mnemosyne
@schrodingers_cat:
Bring a card and some main dish type of food — a casserole is traditional. The food is to take some of the burden of meal planning off him while he’s stressed beyond belief.
NotMax
@Elizabelle
Would it be crass to offer after a bit of time (possibly to his children, if any) a gift certificate for a housecleaning service?
Mnemosyne
@Cckids:
If I have to send something long distance, I usually send a houseplant. I like the symbolism of sending a living plant, and the recipients tell me that they get a little boost out of caring for it.
After our dad passed away, one of my brothers got one of those topsy turvy tomato planters and he said it was very meditative to come home after work and care for it. I wouldn’t buy something that’s that much of a commitment for someone else, but it made me feel like I was on the right track sending plants instead of flowers.
J R in WV
@Adam L Silverman:
What’s the tradition there, Adam? I hadn’t heard that, ever…
chopper
@schrodingers_cat:
normally in the case of an acquaintance, i’d wait until after the funeral b/c the bereaved is busy as all hell and more often than not they’re using that as a reason to push all the emotional dealing off in the name of holding it together. it’s the weeks after when they really have the worst time and need people around the most. that’s when just being there, or delivering food, is really helpful.
a neighbor tho, is a bit different. i’d ask if he needs anything first, even just by a text. some times people like their family are in town for the funeral and need a place to stay, sometimes the guy needs a petsitter, i dunno.
NotMax
@Adam L. Silverman
From Torch Song Trilogy, on sitting shiva:
Why are the mirrors covered?
So we don’t see the pain in our faces.
Why are you sitting on boxes?
To make sure there’s pain in our faces.
Adam L Silverman
@J R in WV: Flowers die. And because they die they are inappropriate to give to those in morning. That’s why the tradition for Jewish cemeteries and memorials is to place a stone to let others, especially the family, know that someone has stopped by to pay respects/visit and not flowers.
J R in WV
@Adam L Silverman:
OK, that makes sense. Thanks.
I knew about the stones at the cemetaries, didn’t connect it with flowers, which do die.
MomSense
@schrodingers_cat:
Food that is easy to reheat is always nice. When he answers the door you can gauge whether he is feeling like company.