AG Garland appointed former prosecutor Robert Hur as special counsel to lead the investigation into Obama admin-era classified documents found among President Biden’s papers in two locations. Here’s a summary from CNN:
Attorney General Merrick Garland announced he has appointed a special counsel to take over the investigation into President Joe Biden’s potential mishandling of classified documents.
The White House confirmed Thursday aides located documents with classified markings at two locations inside Biden’s home in Delaware. Biden told reporters the materials were in a locked garage and that he was cooperating fully with the DOJ.
This move won’t stop the howler monkeys from making false equivalencies about Trump’s egregious classified document heist, but it sounds like the right thing to do regardless. Open thread.
Jerry
Yeah, no surprise here. Garland had to do it.
Ksmiami
Eh fuck that guy. Worst nominee of Biden’s administration
jonas
Agree Garland had to do this. He can’t bring charges against Trump over this stuff while not at least making some gesture towards having treated Biden’s case similarly.
TaMara
Obama just needs to proclaim he declassified them with his mind, and it will be okay.
I’m over Garland at this point.
Barbara
I don’t think anyone should be exposed to criminal liability for the possession of classified information that was consistent with their classification status unless they shared documents with third parties. David Petraeus is the worst offender here, having shared classified information with his girlfriend who was writing a biography on him. Even he skated with a slap on the wrist. I say this with regard to Trump as well, whose worst offense was to refuse to return the documents, IMHO, not that he had them in the first place.
Ksmiami
@TaMara: it took him 2 fucking years w Trump’s malfeasance… he’s a Republican and there are no good Republicans. Rinse and repeat.
narya
I’m glad Garland took the step–and I still think this is a nothing burger over the long term, despite the snipe-hunting and howling that is occurring. I guess my question to the jackals who have had security clearances is just how common is something like this? I know folks have said the classification system itself is kind of a hot mess, for example, in terms of over-classification, and I can imagine that if one routinely handles classified stuff–other than the super-top-secret stuff–it wouldn’t be that difficult to just forget that something has a classification, that THIS document, of the 250 on your desk, is classified, but nothing else is.
Ken
This is of course all part of the Democrat’s sinister master plan to make Kamala Harris president.
trollhattan
@TaMara: God, I so want Barry Bams to come forth and do a Vulcan mind thing, on teevee, for this. The brain explosions would be epic.
MNDoug
I’m with Ksmiami. It took 2 years for Trump to get a special counsel but he’s lickity split with Biden. Garland is a worthless piece of shit.
guachi
Two years for a special counsel for Trump but two days for Biden. Talk about a double standard. This was clearly done for political reasons by Garland.
SFAW
@MNDoug:
I don’t have any particular like for Garland, but considering it’s his boss, he had to name a Counsel PDQ, since having Biden’s own DoJ investigate him might be … interesting.
[In case anyone wants to get huffy about the “Biden’s own DoJ” phrasing, please save yourself/selves the effort. Unless you want to spend three hours debating “clip” vs. “magazine” (so to speak).]
Juju
I think the tell that the documents are a low level classification is the fact that the National Archives people didn’t even know the documents were missing. They knew the documents Trump took were missing and were desperate to have them returned. It will be interesting to see what the documents are in the end.
The AG is doing the right thing. It’s what he has to do.
I’ve heard about the timeline on the news shows, and why there was no news given in November, when the first documents were discovered? My guess is they weren’t going to release information while elections were taking place, since DoJ is supposed to look apolitical.
Ksmiami
There’s no hint of bad intent either- just a mistaken accident – what a waste
SFAW
@trollhattan:
Not a big fan of ‘sploding brains in movies/TV, but I might be willing to make an exception, if the so-called “brains” belong to Rethugs.
Josie
I read somewhere that, because Trump was being investigated by special counsel, the Republican committees could not bring the counsel in to create a sideshow from the investigation. Maybe that is why Garland appointed one for President Biden, to keep the investigation out of Republican hands.
Juju
@MNDoug: If they delayed getting special counsel for Biden, it would look worse in the long run. The whiners would be whining about how unfair it is that they are treating Biden like he’s above the law. Just yank the bandaid off fast.
Hildebrand
It’s almost like some folks don’t want to know how politics work in this country.
Of course Garland immediately named a special counsel – that’s good oversight and smart politics.
Likewise, when investigating a previous president who will once again be a political rival, you can’t bloody well rush the process. Yes, it’s taking a long time. Would you rather go fast or actually build an airtight case, especially knowing the political climate we live in – because you can’t do both.
There are no sane republicans left who will do the work that the party did with Nixon. This means it’s not just a matter of the court of public opinion, it is purely a legal case with pretty specific markers to get to a guilty verdict. And this case must return a guilty verdict, or else the whole thing will be seen as exactly what Trump has been declaring, and not just by the MAGA hordes.
This is not just another case, or just another political problem. This is uncharted territory – I would rather we take the time to get it right.
Brachiator
The idiot media have seized this with all the feverish excitement of an addict finding the last dose of his favorite drug. I am also hearing some talk radio hosts claiming that Biden’s objections to Trump’s actions are mere politics. I am sure that if the investigation goes deeper, they will find that every president after Eisenhower “mishandled” classified documents.
What a stupid farce.
Geminid
I think that once some people decide that Garland’s a bad actor, judging negatively any and all decisions made by him becomes reflexive on their part. That makes it hard for me to take their criticisms seriously.
Betty Cracker
@Juju:
I wonder how that works since there doesn’t seem to be a reliable system in place to track classified documents.
lee
Since this is an open thread I want to suggest a great scifi series I just finished reading.
The Murderbot Diaries.
The first 4 books are novellas, so they are short reads. The second 2 are novels. They are all fun and quick reads. They are all self contained so you don’t have to worry about getting an ending to the story. The author plans 2 more novellas and 1 more novel.
It won the Hugo award a while back.
lee
@Geminid: This is my exact feeling on Garland.
jonas
@MNDoug: Why should Garland have appointed a special counsel for Trump before the 1/6 committee had made any referrals or before we knew about the documents at Mar-a-Lago? He faces state sanctions in NY over his business and taxes — that’s not DOJ’s brief. And the special grand jury in Georgia just wrapped up its work, and that’s also a state matter.
karen marie
@Barbara: We don’t know what Trump’s “worst offense” is with regard to his theft of documents. Refusing to return them is the least of it.
Omnes Omnibus
@Ksmiami: Garland isn’t a Republican, you nihilist rage-monkey.
jonas
@Geminid: They wish he were more like Barr, just for Democrats. But that’s how it does/should work.
Also I wonder if appointing a special counsel means there’s less likelihood of House Republicans fucking with either investigation, trying to leak anything that might embarrass Biden while running interference for Trump and other Republicans. They definitely want to be able to do that.
SpaceUnit
There are reports of Chuck Todd dancing a jig on the roof of the NBC building.
Barbara
@karen marie: On its face, yes, I agree. That’s what I meant — it will not surprise me at all to learn that he has shared them with third parties. In fact, a few people have admitted that Trump offered to show them classified documents.
KCSteve
@Ksmiami: Amen
jonas
@karen marie: Wasn’t the DNI supposed to have presented an intelligence damage assessment to Congress recently? Or has he not done that yet?
Bill Arnold
@Brachiator:
Not the same. (Daily Mail, which is British very right wing)
Trump kept documents marked ‘secret’ and ‘classified’ in his drawer at Mar-a-Lago alongside notes from a book author after his presidency, new FBI court documents say
jonas
@Betty Cracker: From what I’ve been reading, virtually everything in the federal government is classified at some level and most of it isn’t “tracked” directly — people who need to have access to work with it and are expected to make sure it’s properly handled. Most of it is completely mundane government business and records. I would think the super top-secret stuff like what ended up at Mar-A-Lago would have called for some more stringent chain-of-custody protocols, especially the TS/CI material that wasn’t even supposed to leave a secured room in Langley. Someone fucked up big time there.
H.E.Wolf
Folks who are spending their energies fulminating against the US Attorney General could also decide to do something that might make a tangible difference. Such as: Help flip a seat in the PA State House at the end of this month!
Election is Jan. 31, and you can sign up to write a few postcards (4 is the minimum, then you’re done if you want to be):
1. Text JOIN to Abby The Address Bot at 484-275-2229
OR
2. Email [email protected]
If calling strangers bad names gives someone joy (I don’t get it, but I won’t stand in the way), it’s very compatible with a little GOTV at the same time. :)
Off to write 5 postcards for a pro-choice Democrat. I invite all y’all to join me!
mvr
@Juju: Yeah, there really isn’t another possible move. In general doing the right thing as quickly as possible is a good thing, both intrinsically and generally also PR-wise. So I don’t mind that the appointment is quick. I would however like to see something happen with Trump relatively soon, but than I don’t know what all they have on him.
Almost Retired
This seems like the best thing to do in a bad situation. I’m neither a supporter or detractor of Garland. I just don’t know enough about criminal law, federal practice, considerations behind the scene, etc. to have reached an informed conclusion. The pacing is frustrating, but it seems to go with the territory.
I worked briefly as an attorney for a California regulatory agency. I went screaming back to the private sector two years later due in part to the frustrating bureaucracy, glacial pace of decision-making and mystifying internal politics.
For me the jury is still out, so to speak, on AG Garland.
KCSteve
@Ksmiami: Nailed it. I’ve come to the same conclusion. As I recall, when Obama chose him for SCOTUS nominee, it was based on the hope that the Repubs would consider him since Orrin F___ing Hatch had previously pushed for his appointment. Garland is another “good” Repub in the same vein as Jim Comey, Rod Rosenstein and Bill Barr.
CatRadio
I don’t get the griping about Garland appointing a special counsel. In fact, I am relieved. Nothing will stop the monkey howling, but I would like to know exactly how the Biden (and/or possibly Obama) papers failed the classification rules.
Obs. not the same as the crazy guy before Biden, but something smells rotten, and it needs to be tracked.
Betty Cracker
@jonas: It sure seems like there’s an over-classification problem, which may need to be addressed. But some of the coverage I’ve read about the Trump case leads me to believe that even the most sensitive documents aren’t really tracked. IIRC, Trump had TS/SCI stuff that no one realized he had until the FBI found the documents in his Florida dump.
Balconesfault
@Barbara: “I say this with regard to Trump as well, whose worst offense was to refuse to return the documents, ”
You’re sure of this?
Josie
@jonas: Yes, this is what I way trying to say. You explained it much more succinctly.
Ruckus
@narya:
My experience was a very long time ago but I held a Top Secret clearance in the military. To show you how well it seems to have worked back then, one day the officer that I answered to told me I had that clearance. It was because we had equipment in a compartment with equipment that was considered at the time to be top secret. Actually we had equipment in every compartment that people might be in and someone therefore had to be able to go into any compartment on the ship. I was the guilty party, the one guy. I have no idea who else on the ship, other than the guys that worked in that room might have had a TS clearance, likely the captain and the XO also, and that clearance wasn’t government wide, only on that ship. And it didn’t give me access to anything other than that compartment. As I remember Need To Know was the operative phrase.
Hildebrand
@KCSteve: How in the world do you come to the conclusion that Garland is a Republican? There is absolutely no evidence, throughout his entire career, that would support that he is anything other than a moderate Democrat.
If you are arguing that he acts too much like a Republican for your tastes, great, say that. But don’t just make up crap because you don’t like the pace of the proceedings.
tobie
@H.E.Wolf: Thanks. This feels like a better use of my energy. I’m tired of tying myself in knots about investigations and judicial processes I don’t fully understand, and responding to outrage, panic and despair is also wearing me out. Fighting for a Dem PA statehouse to help Josh Shapiro succeed as governor is a good cause.
Balconesfault
@Hildebrand: re: Garland, I heard speculation that the Biden revelations would cause Garland to withhold charging Trump.
Clearly, after so many years of chaotic partisanship… people don’t understand how principled people follow process.
narya
@Ruckus: Yeah, I remember you discussing that in another thread, thank you! It just seems like it would be pretty easy to forget stuff, especially if (a) you routinely work with lots of documents, (b) some of which are classified, (c) but not all of which are super-duper secret. I can imagine handling the SCIF-type super-duper-secret docs separately.
Ruckus
@Betty Cracker:
Once again my experience is very, very limited but what I do know is that there are different rules for different levels of classification. And there are several levels, all of which have different requirements.
If the locked up documents are minimum classification, which seems likely because he was able to remove them, were locked up, then the penalty is likely very minimal to zero, especially for some one allowed to have them in the first place. The risk/rational for classification and discovery is, if I remember correctly, sets the guidelines for access, storage, usage and timely return.
jonas
@Betty Cracker: Everyone I’ve ever known who’s been in the military or done government work says the classification system is a huge PITA and lots of stuff is over-classified. But no-one wants to be held responsible if they *underclassify* something and it leaks and turns out to be a big embarrassment. It’s mainly a CYA thing.
I’m not sure whether the TS/CI stuff at Mar-A-Lago was only discovered during the search, or whether the FBI and NARA pretty much figured out what he had down there, but couldn’t get him to turn it over.
Bostondreams
@lee: If you like that series, you might enjoy The Locked Tomb series by Tamsyn Muir. Currently 3 novels with a fourth later this year! and the audiobook versions are stunningly good.
Ken
I do hope he is careful. There could be ice. He might slip and fall.
Ken
Would you accept “worst offense that he’s admitted on social media, and used in fundraising emails”?
Mallard Filmore
@jonas:
A few decades ago, as a computer programmer, simply making a listing created a Secret or even Top Secret document. It was up to the facility manager to track and dispose of those print-outs.
Some of Biden’s documents are of interest to the Archives only because he touched them. Perhaps he created them, which means the Archives would never have known they existed before.
On the other hand, the news as of yesterday was that some of his documents had more than incidental over classification.
livewyre
When the argument becomes about the inner lives of the characters involved (e.g. Garland Betrays Us Again), that’s how you know there isn’t an argument against the process. A lot of Republicans getting investigated these days – gotta distract somehow. Too bad the law doesn’t run on distraction. Too bad for them, I mean.
Old School
According to CNN, Robert Hur, the special counsel, is a former law clerk for William Rehnquist and was a US attorney in Maryland (nominated by Trump).
SpaceUnit
@Ken:
He’ll be doing the Bothsides Boogie to his last breath.
Chief Oshkosh
@narya: From my time working with the feds, it’s for-sure grounds to be fired, though each case is handled distinctly.
Mike in Pasadena
Until we see indictment and prosecution of individuals who planned and executed the sedition including Trump, Meadows, Bannon, the Willard Hotel crew and the like (instead of only prosecuting the little people physically attacking the Capitol), I’ll be withholding judgments about this DOJ. The next Republican president will simply pardon everybody involved just like H.W. Bush pardoned the Iran Contra defendants. So, unless Jack Smith proceeds with lightning speed, we’ll never see prosecution let alone conviction of anybody other than the little people who will soon see pardons from a Republican president.
Mike in Pasadena
In other words I’m not holding my breath.
patrick II
Why were the classified documents found in the first place? Did someone just happen to run across them when cleaning out an old desk? Or was someone looking for them, and why would they be?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I’d completely forgotten about Petreaus in all of this! Haven’t heard the comparison drawn once on the Cable TeeVee, though I feel like I could write a Wiki entry on Sandy “Socks” Berger.
Also, we may never know, but I’d bet a large amount of money that trump showed the KJU letters to some of teh Mar A Lardo trash
livewyre
@Mike in Pasadena: Good news for you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stewart_Rhodes#Attack_on_United_States_Capitol
One of the foremost planners in question. And they’re not remotely done. I hope that assuages at least one of your concerns.
Mallard Filmore
@patrick II:
Yes, cleaning out an old office.
Betty Cracker
@Balconesfault: I don’t think it’s as simple as principled people following processes, at least not in practice since prosecutorial discretion is a thing. Obama admin AG Eric Holder was against the Biden DOJ going after Trump for his role in the 1/6 coup plot at first because he thought it would heighten the divisions in the country. But Holder changed his mind as more evidence came out, reasoning that deterring future presidents who might try something similar via prosecution was more important than avoiding a politically divisive prosecution.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
that’s the phrase I’ve been looking for!
WaterGirl
@Jerry: They can demand that Garland come to the Hill every single day for questions about Biden and these documents, but with a Special Counsel in place, Garland doesn’t have to answer a thing.
frosty
Right on the money. That’s why I’ve had the nym pied for months.
Kristine
@H.E.Wolf: Crazy week here at Chez Renovate but I can do at least 5.
EriktheRed
“the right thing to do”???
Just to placate the already unplacatable??
Nah…
Ksmiami
@Omnes Omnibus: OFFS…. I’m hardly a nihilist..
evodevo
@Betty Cracker:
As one who once worked in a library, I would think you could just barcode their folder and scan them out and in like a Netflix DVD lol…
EarthWindFire
@patrick II: I have the same questions. Trump’s being investigated for mishandling classfied documents and now we’re all of a sudden finding classified documents in Biden’s Wilmington garage? Something stinks in Delaware…
jonas
@Mike in Pasadena: That’s my assumption as well — any charges or convictions of Trump and his circle at the federal level will simply be dismissed/pardoned by the next Republican AG and president. That’s why it’s essential that the AGs in GA and NY do their job and nail him on state charges that can’t be waved away by POTUS. (I presume there will be pressure on a Republican governor, like Kemp in GA, to make sure Trump skates there as well, but I don’t know what pardon/commutation powers the gov has there.
Frankensteinbeck
I would have appointed a special counsel. It seems like the smart move. When Biden’s investigator goes “We found he took some work home, and returned it as soon as he noticed he’d made the mistake” and Trump’s goes “We had to actually raid his home to get back the papers he lied to us about returning and had no right to when he took them,” then you can honestly say you treated both sides the same.
Howler monkeys gonna howl. When this drops off it’s 15 minutes they’ll go back to Hunter Biden because they are obsessed with the crazy theories they made up about him. Way more fun and salacious.
tobie
@Old School: This post from someone on Mastodon who knows Hur reassured me. Time will tell, of course.
randy khan)
@guachi:
First, yes, this was done for political reasons (as well as legal ones) – the politics are that doing something quickly is way better than dragging it out. So it’s the right call.
I think the big difference between the treatment of Trump and Biden here is that NARA’s primary goal with Trump, and one that the FBI undoubtedly understood, was to get the documents back so they could be stored (and protected) properly. If Trump had turned everything in after the first request or even after the subpoena, I don’t think he would be in legal jeopardy (even if I think that’s not entirely a right call). Everything was stretched out for that reason. Here, Biden’s team is cooperating fully and, in fact, the documents were discovered by them, with no prodding from NARA. So there was no reason to drag it out.
tobie
@Old School: This post from someone on Mastodon who knows Hur reassured me. Time will tell, of course.
Old Man Shadow
I’ve got absolutely zero faith that Trump will ever be prosecuted for anything.
Which means, if, Gods forbid, he’s in the position to do so, he’ll do it all again. So will all of his asshole fascist followers. They’ll keep staging coups until they go to jail or succeed.
WaterGirl
@patrick II: Biden aides were packing up an office Biden had previously used.
WaterGirl
@Ksmiami: If that’s the case, and you are indeed not a nihilist, then you might want to review your Balloon Juice comments and figure out why you not infrequently present yourself as one with your “burn it all down” comments.
EarthWindFire
@WaterGirl: According to ABC, the second set of documents were found in a garage. That’s what spiked my paranoia. I guess we’ll see.
HinTN
@narya: Every classified document is marked on every page and is required to have a cover that is impossible to misunderstand. They don’t allow you to overlook it AND they’re not supposed to be anywhere outside a secure location.
@Betty Cracker:
There is for peons. I don’t know about lord high potentates.
Betty Cracker
@tobie: I get the rationale, but it’s enormously frustrating that Democrats are constrained by optics like that and Republicans just aren’t. There’s always a thumb on the scale, and that sucks.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
If trump went to prison tomorrow (and personally I think he’s forty-year career criminal: tax-, bank- and insurance fraud and rape (including his first wife) off the top of my head), DeSantis, Kemp, Youngkin, Whoever will still do their best to pursue and Orbanist agenda to the extent Congress and voters permit
ETA: trump got ten million more votes after four years of cheap grifting, blatant abuse of power, and he told us to inject bleach. Thirteen Senators who voted to let him off for January 6 were re-elected, three more were replaced by trump-friendlier candidates. Merrick Garland didn’t do that.
ian
MuellerGarlandButtigiegSmithGarland sold us out!!1!!1 ! s// !!HinTN
@Omnes Omnibus: Thank you!
Anyway
Dem AGs follow process to a fault — Rethug AGs (hello Bob Barr) ride roughshod over process.
There’s such an asymmetry to the two parties/admins…
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Thanks, Obama!
JoyceH
My first job in the Navy was at a message center in the Pentagon. And let me tell you, the Confidential and Secret documents just sculled around all over the building, no numbering or signing or anything – that stuff’s common as dirt. It’s not until you get to TS and above that copies are numbered and signed for and handled in special rooms.
Side issue – the NYT has been investigating the funding of the Santos campaign, including fundraising by organizations that appear not to exist. I’m starting to suspect that the Santos campaign was a political equivalent of Springtime For Hitler. He wasn’t supposed to win, just rake in the money!
tobie
@Betty Cracker: I agree with you and, boy do I wish things were different in the US. But I also think that the appointment of a Special Prosecutor keeps the matter out of the dirty hands of the House GOP and I’d rather this matter be looked at by someone who is reputed to be a by-the-book prosecutor than Grand Inquisitor Jordan and his Inquisitor buddies.
Sister Golden Bear
Politically is was necessary, and the right move regardless.
Legal Twitter seems to think the the main implications for a Trump prosecution is that 1) prosecutors will likely narrow their focus to the obstruction charges, 2) it narrows the range of potential documents they want to present at trial to the ones seized by the FBI. (In trials involving classified materials, prosecutors want to show documents to jurors, and jurors only, classified info that’s serious enough to secure a conviction, but not so serious that there’s problems if the info gets leaked.) But the consensus it’s more a bump in the road than a wall.
Miss Bianca
@Omnes Omnibus: “Nihilist rage-monkey” for the WIN! I am so stealing that one, it seems to apply to more than a few folks I can think of.
RedDirtGirl
@H.E.Wolf: Thank you!!!
frosty
I always thought this was TFG’s plan too. Winning brought the bright lights down on the Roach Motel that was his business. Oops.
Brachiator
@JoyceH:
Reminds me of the Eddie Murphy comedy, The Distinguished Gentleman. Murphy plays a con man who gets elected to Congress, but who has a change of heart and does some good.
But this Santos guy…
Sure Lurkalot
Like Almost Retired, I don’t have the expertise to weigh in on Garland’s predispositions or the crossing of T’s and dotting the I’s concerning the law and precedents being followed with regard to the many transgressions of Trump.
I do think that appointing a special counsel with all alacrity in the case of Biden and taking baby steps with regard to Trump does not sit well. Regardless of how Biden supporters parse the difference between the cases, Garland’s action will likely make them look equivalent in the eyes of the public.
That 2 years after a violent insurrection, fewer than 1000 people have been charged and none of the principal players and financiers, that it took a year and a half of playing footsie with Trump about the return of archives before action was taken to investigate…”the wheels of justice move slowly”…”when you come for the king, you better not miss”…at some point these maxims miss the mark.
Gravenstone
@MNDoug: Is stupidity contagious here today?
@guachi: see above
Outta this thread. You kids have fun with yourselves.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Absolutely! The oft-forgotten context of “I could shoot somebody in the middle of Fifth Avenue…” is that trump was expressing near-disbelief that rubes kept coming back for more. I forget which insider-y account, the one for which Chris Christie was pretty clearly the source, reported that trump looked like he had seen a ghost when the returns started coming in on election night, 2016
(Good lord, Nicolle Wallace, who spent eight years selling everything from the Iraq War to John “Shelby County” Roberts one behalf of one George W Bush, is in full emo-prog mode, and she has Glenn Kirchener to give a legal gloss to her emoting)
Joseph Patrick Lurker
Merrick Garland did the right thing and the attacks against him on this thread are pathetic and disgusting. Some of you jackals need to grow the fuck up and stop being so goddamn childish.
OB-118
@Ken: Falling from a roof would be an unfortunate defastigation, which I hear Putin might be interested in :-)
patrick II
@WaterGirl:
Geez, Joe.
lowtechcyclist
@Hildebrand:
I’m just gonna second this. I certainly couldn’t have said it any better.
Omnes Omnibus
@Joseph Patrick Lurker: Now I feel like I need to rethink my initial reaction. Maybe it was a bad idea after all.
Ksmiami
@Gravenstone: why does this even warrant a Special Prosecutor in the first place? Literally, these are stale documents that were wrongly packed up… and they’ve been locked up for years.
@Sure Lurkalot: Exactly- if you aren’t still outraged over the lack of January 6th actions, then you’re ok with the end of US democracy …
trollhattan
@Ken: Here’s hoping said roof has a 45-degree slope.
ian
@Joseph Patrick Lurker:
NOOO! *Throws mashed carrots against wall* *Cries furiously*
Redshift
@Barbara:
That is in fact how it works, from what I understand. No one gets prosecuted for that, they only get administrative penalties (probably just a black mark on their employment record, unless it’s done repeatedly.)
Kent
The two very best things about this whole episode are:
1. The second stash of Biden docs were found in a box in his Delaware garage behind his Corvette. Which has to be the most peak Biden thing ever, and
2. Biden’s approval rating has shot up to his highest point in months today and into positive numbers in the middle of this scandal (according to Slate).
WaterGirl
@EarthWindFire: I was answering the question of what started all of this.
The ones in the locked garage are interesting. I doubt that was enemy action though.
Along the same lines as every accusation is a confession… if the Rs found those documents, they would have hidden them or destroyed them, so they surely assume Biden would do the same.
trollhattan
@Brachiator: “Hi, I’m Ron Santos*, new congressman from New Mexico. Now that we’re done with introductions, let’s talk about what you can do for me, Ron Santos*.”
*Or is he?
tobie
@Sure Lurkalot: I don’t get this response. It’s not like Trump & Company were not being investigated until a Spec Prosecutor was appointed. Multiple grand juries were already empanelled, search warrants issued, phones seized etc before Jack Smith came on the scene. 4 things happened that made his appointment inevitable: Trump declaring his candidacy, Biden saying as much, the Jan 6 committee wrapping up and the House falling into the hands of the GOP.
Given this context, it was inevitable that a Spec Pros would have to be appointed once classified docs were found in Biden’s possession.
Fanny Willis has been investigating Trump on a single matter–not a straddling conspiracy–for longer than anyone else and I haven’t heard a single complaint that she’s yet to issue an indictment. We’re selective in our fury.
narya
@HinTN: @JoyceH: These are both helpful comments–even though they kinda go in different directions!
livewyre
Is it really unseemly to protect an investigation from impending political interference by a political body? Is defensively acknowledging the existence of politics an unacceptably political act? Or does it just stand out in contrast?
If the investigation involves Garland’s boss, it has to be placed in someone else’s hands. I’m sure he takes the law seriously enough that he could be trusted to handle it, but we shouldn’t have to trust him, whether we’re a Republican majority House committee or not. If that’s as close to a political consideration as it gets then I’m not too worried.
WaterGirl
@Betty Cracker: Two sets of rules is absolutely maddening.
Leto
ACAB:
The sheriff’s office sparked a social media firestorm. Now a commissioner wants answers.
The grieving families who can’t escape the police.
Repatriated
Then everyone’s going to be dancing jigs on icy roofs with 45-degree…
Wait. That’s a slippery-slope fallacy. Nevermind.
WaterGirl
@Sure Lurkalot: Patience, grasshopper.
I think you’ll see some charges against Trump by the end of February, if not sooner.
Joseph Patrick Lurker
@Omnes Omnibus:
@ian:
From the day Garland was sworn into office, he’s been a model of impartiality, neutrality, and objectivity. I’m fed up with the cheap shots leveled against him. He deserves the benefit of the doubt.
Omnes Omnibus
@Ksmiami: Never liked Thomas More but this seems to fit.
livewyre
@Omnes Omnibus: Yeah, the bit is a little transparent on this one. Which side to take doesn’t matter as long as it adds heat.
ETA: And another one about the fine upstanding character of whoever, rather than about the process. That’s framing for you.
WaterGirl
@patrick II: I read here on Balloon Juice that the classified documents were mixed in with papers about funeral arrangements for Beau.
If that’s the case, can I completely believe that Biden could have been slightly disorganized in his grief? Yes I Can.
lowtechcyclist
@frosty:
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
For exactly that reason, I half expected him to show up at the 2016 Republican Convention, decline the nomination and leave, laughing, leaving the assembled Republicans to figure out the answer to “what the fuck do we do now??”
Of course, Putin may have insisted that he see it through.
jonas
@tobie: Yeah, As I wrote upthread early on, I also don’t get this “Garland waited two years to appoint an SC for Trump” stuff. The NY and GA cases are state actions so of course DOJ isn’t going to be involved in those. Until the DOJ opened a case over the Mar-A-Lago documents and the Jan 6 committees made their referrals there were no federal cases (that I can recall) pending against Trump that you could appoint an SC for. I agree with others who have pointed out here and elsewhere that part of Garland’s calculus had to be to wall both these cases off from Congressional interference.
zhena gogolia
@Joseph Patrick Lurker: I agree.
C Stars
@JoyceH: I read an article in the Washington Post about this yesterday. Once he announced his candidacy he suddenly had something like $1,400,000 in his bank account that appears to come out of nowhere.
Ksmiami
@WaterGirl: sorry I don’t have the stomach for 2 years of the media and the Rt wing. Crucifying the one man who’s been the best president in my lifetime, but yes we should always accept the Calvinball nature of US politics when clearly mice have eaten the gameboard and the pieces (institutions) are rotting away. Maybe it’s time to not settle for unjust rules?
Citizen Alan
“Democrats have to scrupulously obey every law and Republican never do” isn’t how it should work either.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Tish James has been unable to hang a criminal charge on trump. I don’t get it. I’m just a simple country dumb guy with an internet connection. I don’t know how Allen Weisselberg is on his way to jail, how the trump company can be charged and sued, but not The Beast. But I assume it’s because the law is an ass, and a complicated ass, not because Tish James is a secret Republican.
Ksmiami
@Citizen Alan: it’s getting ridiculous- maybe the actual institutions are less important than truth, justice etc…
patrick II
@WaterGirl:
Me too. Joe has had some hard times.
ian
@Joseph Patrick Lurker: I’m a model of jackassery and snark. This particular photoshoot must have failed, as it does not seem clear that I was attempting to be humorous. If I had to state an opinion of Garland, this part right here
Would probably be accurate. We won’t know until we get to the end if the strategy pursued by the DOJ will work or not.
tobie
@Ksmiami: Biden is not being crucified.
C Stars
@Leto: Reading the story, it seems pretty obvious that she didn’t even “refuse to serve” them, but her shift was over so she passed on the job to the person whose shift was starting, and the cops decided to torture her for the fun of it. In fact, I bet they went to the deli with the express intent of harassing her.
ETA to add missing response link
gvg
@Betty Cracker: Tracking classified documents would itself have to be classified, otherwise the tracking would give away too much info. Need to know includes the need to know that certain secrets even exist. You CANNOT by definition have one tracking system for all classified documents. Only the low level general stuff can even be tracked by a system. Everything else would have specific gatekeepers at tighter and tighter levels.
Omnes Omnibus
@Joseph Patrick Lurker: I am aware. But do carry on.
Ksmiami
@tobie: just wait…within a month, he’ll be portrayed as Charles Manson’s hidden twin. Besides we should have reacted the same way Brazil did but here we are…
tobie
@jonas: People have been calling for Garland’s head since about a month into his tenure. I stopped watching Maddow and Wallace because of this sometime around May 2021. I now don’t watch cable news at all. Joy Reid’s “Merrick the Meek” bothered me a lot too.
Citizen Alan
@Old School:
Oh Jesus Fucking Christ! He’ll be interviewing Tara Fucking Reade before the month is out.
Ksmiami
@KCSteve: our obsession with process will get us all killed. These aren’t normal times as much as we wish it were true.
tobie
@Ksmiami: Lula was in office when the coup in Brazil occurred. He was the commander of the military and had his lead prosecutor in place. What did Biden have on Jan 6, 2021? Nothing. He wasn’t inaugurated. Trump controlled the military and he and his friends had plenty of time to destroy evidence. I don’t know much about Brazil’s justice system but fast trials and quick convictions usually attest to the absence of due process.
Baud
@Citizen Alan:
That’s exactly how good vs. evil works.
Jackie
@Joseph Patrick Lurker: 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
Mike in Pasadena
@livewyre: You are right, Elmer Rhodes’ conviction was nice but he is not among the primary movers of the overall strategy for Jan 6 but rather organized one of the important groups, the bad twits. I don’t think he had much to do with the fake electors scam (I may be wrong of course) and otherwise he was a pretty minor cog in the machinery. Just my two cents.
Citizen Alan
@tobie: I just don’t believe it. I don’t. As far as I’m concerned, anyone who would accept a judgeship or a AUSA job from Shitgibbon is clearly a person of no moral or ethical character and, at best, keeps their fascism mostly in the closet.
Betty Cracker
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I know a person who did 5 years for embezzling a sum that would be a rounding error in the vast pile Weisselberg stole. His sentence is 5 months. On one hand, I’m astonished he’s being punished at all. But even on the rare occasions when they do get held to account, the rich have a VIP justice system.
Skepticat
Nor have I or most other people, but it doesn’t seem to hinder many of them.
Citizen Alan
@Old Man Shadow: Every Republican president of my lifetime has been exponentially worse than the one before (except that witless clod Ford). Exponentially. Worse.
Geminid
@jonas: I think the Georgia legislature took direct powers of pardon and commutation out of the Governor’s hands after it was abused by a Governor (Eugene Talmadge I think). Kemp still appoints the state officials who form the committee that has that power.
But I wonder if Brian Kemp would pardon Trump even if he had the chance. Most Republican officeholders want to put Trump in the rear view mirror, I think. He’s a drag on their party now.
Baud
@Betty Cracker:
Not that I disagree with you in the least, but I think (1) state laws tend to be harsher and (2) recidivism laws are where they really stick it to people. Not sure if that’s your friend’s situation.
billcinsd
@jonas:Until the DOJ opened a case over the Mar-A-Lago documents and the Jan 6 committees made their referrals there were no federal cases
You are kind of missing the forest here. Why were there no federal cases against Trump for nearly two years?
Baud
@Geminid:
I saw that you’re governor has decided he’s ready for his closeup.
UncleEbeneezer
@Joseph Patrick Lurker: Thank you! (Standing ovation)
Mike in Pasadena
@narya: Long ago I had a clearance giving me access to classifications as high as we saw on trump’s floor (top secret, noforn) and reviewed the documents in a SCIF, or the vault as it was called. If I had inadvertently taken such a piece of paper home, returned with it the next day to surrender it, I would still be in Leavenworth 40 years later. But that was how the military reacted long ago. Maybe now everybody is ho hum about classified docs. I doubt it.
Leto
‘Lost their minds’: Missouri Dems cry foul over GOP-proposed dress code for female state lawmakers
UncleEbeneezer
@billcinsd: Because the moment you indict you have to disclose all evidence to the defense and you are limited to what new evidence you can collect via Grand Jury. You also potentially scare off numerous cooperating witnesses you NEED to convict.
billcinsd
@Citizen Alan: Many people said good things about AG Barr, and Kavanaugh and Coney-Barrett at SCOTUS, too. Maybe this guy will surprise, but this seems more like Fitzmas or waiting for the Mueller Report
livewyre
I have to admit, Kanefield’s misgivings about whether we’re actually ready for democracy and rule of law get to me sometimes. It seems a lot of the time like the definition of good is whether it puts on a show of fighting evil, rather than process or outcome. But then two things steady me.
One, we’ve gotten this far. We’re showing strengths that the spectacle of impunity can’t comprehend, let alone make use of. And for once we’re heading in the direction of survival.
Two, it’s all we’ve got in any case. What we have to do is the same, whether we’re ready for it or not. If we can throw off the need for heroes then we’ll be somewhere we’ve never gotten before as a planet. The problem with heroes is that we still rely on them.
Hildebrand
@UncleEbeneezer: I swear some of the folks on this thread are completely oblivious to the high bar for getting convictions in cases like this. It’s not enough to indict – that is not going to turn anything around. We need convictions, and that’s a bloody hard. We need to do this right – and that takes time.
Leto
@Mike in Pasadena: the military is still like that, at least it was as of a year ago. Doubt it’s changed. The Federal government on the other hand is a different beast, specifically with regard to the Pres/VP/other high level civilians like that. I don’t think they can spend several hours, at once, sitting in a SCIF just reviewing material. It doesn’t work like that. I also don’t know how to make it better as I’ve never been a part of their daily routine, nor has anyone on this blog ever been.
Does it need to improve? Yes. Will it? Idk. The Trumpov case might push it in the correct direction, but we’re still dealing with civilians and this is how they are.
billcinsd
@UncleEbeneezer: You can potentially do many things. Did Garland even investigate the big people doing 1/6 before the House Commission started? You stop coup recidivism at the brain, not the legs
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Hildebrand: and assuming conviction, that/those conviction/s will be appealed immediately, and those appeals might well go to some higher-court version of Aileen Canno
ETA: Fellow Nicolle Wallace watchers and sometimes fans: Has she ever disclosed to her audience that frequent guest Mike Schmidt of the NYT is also Mr Nicolle Wallace? It’s always a little weird, but today she’s promoting his book, which sales will ultimately benefit her. I’m sure she makes more than he does, but still….
it does sound like an interesting book, about Jon Kelly, in no small part about Kelly trying to manage trump and Kim Jong-Un. Kelly is being fluffed by the panel, of course, and no one has as yet explained why it was okay for Kelly to be mostly silent about what he saw for trump’s final two years and two impeachments.
Baud
@Leto:
The Don’t Show Me Your Arms State.
Sure Lurkalot
@WaterGirl: That there are two sets of rules for Dems and Repubs as concerns transparency is maddening but I like the side (Team Truth) I’m on. What I also see implicit in the discussion here is how the wheels of justice grind much more slowly and much less surely for the rich, powerful and politically connected.
We all know that Trump has crimed without significant consequence his entire life. And some of that is because of this deference and reticence and the idea in my previous comment “if you go after the king you best not miss.” Too often that translates into don’t even try.
Hildebrand
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Yep – which is why I just don’t fully grasp why folks don’t understand this. We have far too many who have fully bought into Green Lanternism.
narya
@Leto: Maybe they should all show up in burkas. And the men, too, in solidarity.
Geminid
@Baud: I think that Foungkin’ Youngkin is looking at 2028. He’s a calculating guy.
Youngkin would happily take the second spot on the 2024 ticket, though.
Leto
@Baud: but I thought they were pro 2nd Amendment…
@narya: can’t wait for the Hilly Billy Taliban to show up…
delphinium
@ian: Count me in as well for the ‘jury is still out on AG Garland’ category. Given that, I am also not going to denounce him at this point nor get angry because things haven’t moved in the manner I would prefer. Hopefully at some point soon we will see if his strategy will be effective.
Omnes Omnibus
@Ksmiami: On January 6, the primary focus was, as it should have been, on clearing the Capitol so that Congress could do its job and certify the election results. Anything else would have been playing into the hand of the insurrectionists who were seeking to prevent exactly that.
delphinium
@Leto: Wouldn’t the easier solution be to just issue these assholes blindfolds whenever they are in session? Then they won’t have to be outraged at women having the temerity to leave their arms uncovered in their presence.
schrodingers_cat
@Baud: Also didn’t Weiselberg co-operate with the prosecutors? That may be the reason for the reduced sentencing.
Burnspbesq
@Ksmiami:
There’s a Steely Dan song about comments like yours.
Mai Naem mobile
@Old School: that’s my problem with Garland. I get he had to appoint a special counsel but seriously you get somebody who clerked for Rehnquist and worked right under Rosenstein and was appointed by TFG? Its not like the GOP is going to give you credit for appoint ing a GOP. FFS grow some balls and at least nominate a moderate Dem. You damn well know a Rehnquist clerk is going to be a Federalist nutjob. Oh, and the original Trump appointee guy just magically decides to go into the private sector. BTW this whole Bide classified docs deal stinks. I don’t care if I sound conspiratorial but its just a little too conveniently timed.
WaterGirl
@Sure Lurkalot: That may generally be the case. But in this particular case, you only have to look at what Jack Smith has been doing to see that is not true in this instance.
bjacques
Well, you did say “Open Thread”. Hoo boy, that was one demented rant by Governor Abbott on CNN’s The Lead with Jake Tapper just now, basically demanding Biden give him control of the border, crying “terrorist!” and “Fentanyl”
I presume putting the people-smuggling cartels on the terrorist list allows criminalizing the refugees and anyone helping illegal immigrants survive the Texas desert crossing.
Abbott was pretty good at speaking without pause, especially when Tapper didn’t even try to interrupt, but sat there looking like a hostage. It’s a shame Tapper didn’t even prepare by getting hold of Abbott’s letter to Biden, which had already leaked, and challenging him on it.
I feel dumber for having watched it.
Nora
@delphinium: Hasn’t anyone sued under this law? Clearly discriminatory based on sex/gender.
Mike in NC
Is Chuck Todd the only person hyperventilating over this non-story?
Geoduck
@Geminid: I wouldn’t say that Bush I was exponentially worse than Reagan, just bad in different ways. Everyone else though, yeah.
Burnspbesq
@Geminid:
I’m more worried about DeSantis refusing to extradite him when he’s indicted in Georgia.
delphinium
@Mai Naem mobile:
Yes, this. Let’s stop appointing Republicans in order to avoid cries of partisanship or to ‘reach across the aisle’. The GOP will howl anyway and the media won’t care for more than a day anyway. And the GOP is never expected to do this. Was reading that the newly elected PA governor, Josh Shapiro, has selected Republican Al Schmidt as secretary of the commonwealth, the state’s top elections official. Hope that doesn’t go awry.
Sanjeevs
Reading the profile of the new Special Counsel, Garland has really fucked over Biden.
delphinium
@bjacques:
It should be pointed out whenever Abbott is whining about the border that he has been governor going on 8 years now. Besides PR stunts, what has he actually done to help the situation? I get he won’t work with Biden but will be quick to blame him instead, but he had 4 years to work with Trump on this, so why didn’t he? Am guessing this is a question the media will never get around to asking him.
Yutsano
Since the thread be open…
Greetings from Canuckistan!
I’m enjoying some poutine for a late lunch before things kick off for the convention I’m attending tomorrow. I’m going to take a good nap after I eat, then maybe head over to the con space to see what’s what. I’ll try to pop on when I can!
lowtechcyclist
@Geminid:
Might not be the smartest move: no VP nominee on a losing ticket in the past century has later won the Presidency.
livewyre
Is law really that new of a concept? Maybe it is, actually. How long ago was justice another word for revenge?
Stab-in-the-back myths are perennial. We’ve really got to resist the urge to worship strength and immaculateness. I’m convinced it’s not inevitable once the fever breaks. Bit of a grind in the meantime, though.
artem1s
Appointing a special prosecutor was the perfect thing to do. The last thing the MSM wants to have to do is listen to a bunch of boring lawsplaining. They will be off this in a couple of news cycles now.
Geminid
@lowtechcyclist: Youngkin would take that nomination, I think. Although he’d have someone prepare a spread sheet of electoral results and analyze it first just to be sure. He probably has that spread sheet and others already prepared. Like I say, Youngkin’s a calculating guy.
And Youngkin could try out his new, special high tech fleece vest on the campaign trail. The one that changes color depending on which side of his mouth he’s talking out of..
PST
@MNDoug:
Garland appointed special counsel promptly after Trump declared that he was running for president in 2024. Only then was there a potential conflict of interest, because Trump would be running against Garland’s boss, so only then was a special counsel inserted into an investigation already well under way. With Biden the conflict was apparent immediately. Agree wholeheartedly with whoever observed that ripping the band-aid off quickly is the best way to keep this short.
Ghost of Joe Liebling’s Dog
@Leto:
Surely that’s unconstitutional – don’t they have a Second Amendment right to bare arms
Edit: oh damn: pipped at the post again.
zhena gogolia
@Ghost of Joe Liebling’s Dog: It’s tough around here.
Baud
@Ghost of Joe Liebling’s Dog:
It’s tough around here.
ETA: Damn you, zhena!
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Doesn’t sound like the Rs have caught into Hur is a RW plant, unless Harvard Elise playing some wizard chess or whatever the fuck
I wonder what percentage of voters you stopped on the street remember what the words “Steele Dossier” mean, assuming they ever did
Baud
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
11 dimensional chess!
ian
@lowtechcyclist: Yes, but the last guy who did so went on to win 4 times.
geg6
@Joseph Patrick Lurker:
Thank you! Too true.
Yutsano
@Joseph Patrick Lurker:
@geg6: Seconded/Thirdeded.
Jeffro
@KCSteve: and Wray, too
twbrandt (formerly tom)
This is probably a dead thread, but Missouri is turning into Iran https://wapo.st/3QyuoQZ
Kent
But actual VPs have a very big habit of becoming president.
Truman, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Bush I, and Biden were all former VPs.
Jeffro
@Geminid: yup – he knows it’s all about name recognition (or almost all about that, anyway).
The media (especially here in VA) got it all wrong, with him flying all around the country and endorsing mostly losing GQP candidates.
It wasn’t about his endorsement meaning anything. It was about GQP audiences all across the country seeing his face and having him spout The Words.
Jeffro
@Geminid:
@lowtechcyclist:
yeah but it’s all about name recognition…in a field full of GQP scrubs like Pompeo, Haley, and the like all scrambling for attention, Youngkin has to at least get on the playing field in terms of name recognition and national (read: DC snooze media) profile.
Jeffro
apologies but I might just be stealing this going forward ;)
Starfish
@Ruckus: I think it works a little differently for people in the military, as in you have more flexibility than others.
Geminid
@Jeffro: Take it away!
It will still be in the neighborhood.
Spanky
The real question none of you jackals seems to have raised about Hur is obvious. Does he have a brother named Ben?
UncleEbeneezer
My prediction:
SC investigation of Biden (like the Durham investigation) ultimately finds no crimes committed.
SC Smith indicts Trump for Obstruction and possibly Espionage (and possibly 1/6 charges too). Also indicts Eastman, Meadows, and more VIPs in Trump’s orbit.
People who shit on Garland, continue doing so no matter the result.
MomSense
@SpaceUnit:
Ha!! I see what you did there.
middlelee
@H.E.Wolf: Is this for Patricia Lawton?
Uncle Cosmo
@KCSteve: Whoever the fuck you are – I’m betting on “nofuckingbody” – you can fuck right off along with that bloodthirsty arsehole BSMiasma.
Ruckus
@Starfish:
I have no knowledge about that, but it for sure isn’t a free for all with any information or access. I understand the rational why that compartment was Top Secret but I’m not discussing it even though that ship has been scrap for a number of years. And I’m not sure there is more flexibility, I believe the rules to be the same, other than often the military is discussing equipment and congress or the executive branch it discussing paperwork. At the end of the day even if I was in that compartment, what I would have seen would only be equipment, not paperwork. And I could no more walk into that compartment except when necessary than SFB should have ever been allowed in DC, it was all need to know/allowed to know, which is the basic standard.
brantl
@narya: If it’s classified, is it supposed to be allowed outside a SCIF? I had the impression from what Adam Schiff wrote, that they aren’t?
brantl
Dorothy A. Winsor
@UncleEbeneezer: I like the way you think
Omnes Omnibus
@brantl:
Yes, there are many levels of classification and only a few of those levels require a SCIF.
Omnes Omnibus
@UncleEbeneezer:
Exactly.
brantl
@Ksmiami: But you ARE a rage-monkey, there’s no doubt about that…….
Miss Bianca
@Baud: @Leto:
No right to Bare Arms here!
tybee
@Spanky:
ha!
David 🌈☘The Establishment☘🌈 Koch
I’m not against a special counsel.
But did it have to be reactionary from the Federalist Society, who worked for Rehnquist and Jeff Sessions?
Surely he could have found an Independent without bending over backwards. And to what end? If this guy exonerates Biden the “but her emails” media and republicans will still trash DOJ and their electric stoves and sexless M&Ms.
Juju
@Baud: I guess they don’t have the right to bare arms.
David 🌈☘The Establishment☘🌈 Koch
@Juju:
When Paul Ryan was Speaker he banned women reporters who wore open toe heals or sleeveless tops.
As most people know, DC routinely has unbearable heat during summer and people try to deal with the heat with light attire.
YY_Sima Qian
I am beginning to think over classification of government documents is an entrenched & endemic problem. This is far beyond the issue of incidental classification, but points to a bureaucratic culture that seeks to avoid public scrutiny of its operations by classifying everything as sensitive material. An interrelated problem is careless handling of classified materials by current & former senior officials, perhaps partially caused by so many documents that have no business being classified end up being classified.
BTW, unfairness in the prosecution of cases related to handling of sensitive documents has always been deeply unfair. Remember the Wen-Ho Lee case from the late 90s? For improper handling of sensitive material, he was branded a spy, had his name dragged through the mud, spent 9 months in solitary & constantly shackled, until the government’s case collapsed. Even so, his career was over. For similar transgressions, his non-ethnically Han Chinese colleagues were able to continue their careers. Then CIA Director George Tenet got away w/ a soft verbal admonition for similar transgressions, too.
Trump, of course, is materially different from all of the above (including Patreus). He probably thought to monetize the documents he had absconded, & perhaps already have.
J R in WV
@delphinium:
Mav be we should just encourage the Missouri male lawgivers to poke their eyes out lest they see a woman’s bare flesh and catch a desire to touch them? It is the men who have the problem, not the women, after all. There could be a pain killer so that the [oke won’t hurt a bit at first.
I’m sure the Bible tells us not to suffer the witch to live that exposes their bare arms to the eyes of men not their husbands.
I misremember the exact Chapter and Verse of King James where that commandment is given to them… but if we’re gong to have a religious christo-fascist government, we need that kind of laws handed down by a religious leadership pronto.
Probably they should have to go to burkas right away to end the controversy. . . . Demoncrat hoors in the legislature — how horrible! /s/s/s