In about six months, when it’s too late to do anything about it, the GOP will start to talk about jobs again. By ‘talk’ I mean screaming slogans and mobbing every event with signs that say ‘Where Are The Jobs?!?’ Now imagine that the Bureau of Labor Statistics keeps releasing reports as bad as the one that came out today. Not too hard when the left and the right side of every economics conversation focuses on nothing but deficit, as if we already solved the jobs problem and nine ten percent unemployment* is hunky dory.
Will people care that Obama gave up talking about jobs because Republicans had the votes to kill any program that might help? I guess we will find out.
(*) We will get there soon if we do not notch more 200k+ jobs reports.
OzoneR
Uh, Tim, Boehner said that this morning, while following up with “we won’t raise taxes when he cut the deficit because it will kill more jobs”
People won’t care even if he didn’t seeing as the public doesn’t believe “programs” help. The stimulus failed in their eyes, remember?
At some point, liberals really need to come to terms with the fact that most Americans don’t see the deficit and jobs are two mutually exclusive things. The Republicans are successful because they tie the two together, albeit falsely, using logical bullshit.
WyldPirate
Time for a little Krugthulu truth-telling.
Question is, when are you O-Pologists going to rent a clue?
ETA: Cue up the “but he can only do so much because of the mean old Congress horseshit”..
OzoneR
when we had two sides…2009-2010, Americans decided they didn’t want to hear ours, so yeah, he has to adopt the right’s rhetoric, because that’s what America wants to hear.
Go ahead, flame me, but Obama wasn’t talking about budget cuts and “tightening the belt” until November 2010, and there’s a reason for that.
PurpleGirl
I just read the BLS press release. ADP needs to explain where they got their numbers yesterday. While I don’t particularly believe every thing the BLS says, this is still a shitty report.
BLS report:
http://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/empsit.pdf
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
WyldPirate
Could you at least try to answer Tim’s question?
And no, Tim, most people won’t care. That would require them to remember two years out.
DBrown
Only in amerika can the most critical issue – lack of jobs – be overwhelmed by bullshit and the very party that is being killed by it, adopts the same talking points as the very people who caused the problem and continue to do all in their power to make it worse. Obama has either gotten stupid or else always was – makes no sense.
OzoneR
my guess is those numbers will show themselves in future monthly reports. I expect that by September, the June numbers will be bumped up.
boss bitch
don’t know where you are getting this from.
Obama talks about jobs all the time when he goes on the road and talks to normal people. While he does that maybe Dems in Congress can spend the little time they get on TV exclusively trashing Republicans instead of complaining about the president.
BR
ECRI, one of the few organizations that actually accurately predicted the last several recessions and also had no false positives, says that we are going to have basically zero growth (or worse) at least through the end of this year.
My hope is that we have a sharp rebound starting next year, since people have a recency bias and will think “oh, the economy is doing a lot better now” around election time.
WyldPirate
@OzoneR:
What baffles me is that you rarely see a Dem on the TV point out the fact that taxes were slashed to the bone during the Bush years (and now as well), yet there are fewer people working than there were before the tax cuts went into effect.
Dems need people who aren’t morons presenting their arguments before the public–not reinforcing Rethug’s bullshit, erroneous rhetoric.
liberal
Huh? Since when does the left side focus on the deficit but not jobs? Maybe it’s too early and I’m reading your post wrong.
WyldPirate
@Belafon (formerly anonevent):
got a little butthurt going on this am, Belafon?
Captain Haddock
Hell of a campaign theme: I gave up because the Republicans are mean.
OzoneR
Actually, you see that all the damn time. Obama even made that case from August-October 2010. I saw Chuck Schumer say that same thing last week.
No one pays attention to it because it’s quickly followed up with a panel discussion about how that person is wrong and shrill.
Scott
What baffles me is that you rarely see a Dem on the TV point out the fact that taxes were slashed to the bone during the Bush years (and now as well), yet there are fewer people working than there were before the tax cuts went into effect.
It might help some if the news networks would book someone other than Republicans… :/
boss bitch
@Captain Haddock:
When did you hear that from Obama?
WyldPirate
@BR:
Hope isn’t a fucking plan.
The White House needs to learn that too and they need to learn that this fucking austerity kick they have joined in on with the Rethugs was lunacy back in the 1930s and it is fucking lunacy now.
liberal
OzoneR wrote,
It’s partly the Dems fault for not countering their bullshit, or at least giving up the liberal side of the argument too soon.
Yes, yes, the Dems have to run up a steep hill given MSM bias, but that’s the way it goes.
mk3872
How is unemployment now suddenly 100% only a presidential issue?
The GOP swept into power last year on a supposed “JOBS AGENDA”!
Yet the media never get in the GOP’s face about “WHERE ARE THE JOBS”!
Ever since they’ve come into power, job growth has STAGNATED.
OzoneR
No, I gave up because the Republicans won. Really, I don’t get how this surprises anyone on the left. Anyone with half a brain could have told you electing a black guy whom 40% of the country wasn’t even sure was born here was going to destroy any chances Democrats had of changing the national narrative.
It was pretty clear from day one that he would be forced to operate under conservative terms. A lot of people got flamed for saying it.
Han's Solo
Don’t you think a lot of this has to do with how well the right works the media? I agree with your points, but the media was complicit.
WyldPirate
@Scott:
I watch the he/said she said bobbleheads of Dem/Repubs and the Rethugs will invariably say that “cutting taxes generates jobs” and you here crickets fucking chirping from the idiot Dems.
Nice try, though.
Next.
liberal
OzoneR wrote,
Huh? The president’s rhetoric must reflect what people want to hear?
Obviously in the short run it might be politically advantageous to do so, but it misses the entire point of leadership.
aisce
i don’t want to be a dick, and i do feel genuinely bad (and more than a little shocked) about economic news like this…but man will it be nice to see the last of fred derf for a few days.
you win this round, john galt cole. lol.
OzoneR
They try to counter the bullshit all the time, they can’t get a word in.
Yes it is the way it goes, and they keep trying to run up that steep hill and they keep failing. They are not going to make it up that hill, so at some point we really need to blow up the damn hill.
boss bitch
@WyldPirate:
Blaaming Republicans isn’t a plan and neither is shifting the argument back to the left as Krugman suggests. We are still left with a Republican House and a conservative Senate. Let me know when Krugman has a plan to get a good jobs bill passed in Congress.
Tim F.
Right now several clans of government officials are wrestling about where to take the country. Teabaggers just want to burn the whole thing down. Boehner’s business caucus at least wants to keep the country going so that they can bleed it to death more slowly. Obama seems to be fighting for everything the Republicans want, plus just enough compromises to make it look like he didn’t give in completely. Senate Democrats are holding out for a little more (tax increases that is, not anything that might help jobs) and Pelosi’s caucus has drawn a line around Medicare and Social Security.
Not one of those people are fighting for more jobs. At the very best you have Pelosi fighting a losing battle to leave the middle class with as much of a lifeline as she can. Not to expand or grow.
Suffern ACE
@OzoneR-3-Yep. I remember him going to one of those G-7 ministers meetings last year requesting that the west co-ordinate on more stimulus and being rebuffed. There is not a single leader of a western democracy of any significance that wants what liberal economics calls for.
OzoneR
yes welcome to America
you can’t lead Americans, they have their opinions and they’re not going to change them. (i.e. Casey Anthony verdict). You cannot “lead” this country, it leads itself.
WyldPirate
@boss bitch:
There’s my Opologist blaming the mean old Congress.
Here’s something novel. Maybe Obama can quit going around talking about “belt tightening” and “shared sacrifice” and doing the goddamned Rethugs work for them as Krugman points out.
Obama has gone from skull-fucking the kittens to skull fucking the unemployed, the economy and, quite possibly, a second term for himself.
OzoneR
I think by now we must accept that while Krugman is a great economist, his hatred for Obama, manifested in his childish and smug comments like “great progressive hope,” show he’s not serious in any political discussion.
liberal
OzoneR wrote,
Nah. 27 points of that 40% is Republican crazies. The other 13% is just the wash that comes out in any poll, some of which is people saying “Yes” when they mean “No”, the other part of which is people who have really low IQs (paging she-of-many-handles!) or advanced Alzheimers.
And it has little(*) to do with his being black and more to do with his being Democratic, as evidenced by all the attacks on Clinton.
—
(*) Some but not all that much.
OzoneR
and do what?
liberal
OzoneR wrote,
Bullsh*t. Krugman’s been completely willing to give credit to Obama when he deserved it; I’m pretty sure he did so regarding health care reform.
Davis X. Machina
Did you happen to notice the relative figures for public and private employment?
liberal
OzoneR wrote,
You’re really scraping the bottom of the barrel now.
Tim F.
OzoneR
you would be wrong
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/26/opinion/26krugman.html?partner=rss&emc=rss
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/30/opinion/30krugman.html?_r=2
liberal
@27 Tim F wrote,
Oh, OK, you’re looking at politicians/office holders. Your point is pretty much valid, then.
I agree, but you know you’ve just placed yourself in the Firebagger camp, right?
OzoneR
why, for pointing out the obvious? You honestly thing this country can be “led” in a different direction? Seriously?
homeruk
Here are some genuine questions in light of the jobs report and the kvetching that the only conversation is about the deficit:
1. what – in the real world – can be done to improve the jobs situation in the short term? I know that some will say more stimulus but is that frankly a realistic option?
2. as far as I understand it spending hasn’t yet been cut for anything – so how come job growth is declining? i know there were some small cuts back in december but really they don’t amount to much.
3. does anyone acknowledge that the jobs report may not really have anything to do with a lack of more stimulus or the deficit but rather caused by a number of external factors such as the tsunami in Japan, increased oil prices (at least til recently), more people coming back to the job market, greece etc.
4. and finally a macro question. there is tendency amongst liberal economists to rail against supply side economics (which in my limited understanding I associate with trickle down economics) but isn’t the stimulus just another version thereof? Isn’t the idea to pump money in to the economy – somewhere, anywhere – so that it trickles around (alright, not necessarily top down but the principle’s the same)?
boss bitch
@Tim F.:
you need to cut this bullshit out. Obama is working to make sure we don’t default because it will make today’s job report look freaking good. As much as I adore Pelosi, she is not the only one fighting to make sure benefits aren’t cut. We’ve heard the same thing from Obama too many times to be questioning him again and members of the Senate have also “drawn their lines in the sand.” She’s not some lone soldier here.
The Snarxist Formerly Known as Kryptik
So Democrats must necessarily lurch rightward to get anything done because America has decided it hates hippies so goddamn much that it will refuse to listen to anyone to the left of Lieberman, and our politicians are shifting accordingly.
Is there any fucking point to being a liberal in this fucking country anymore then? Do we even have a fucking voice any fucking more?
liberal
OzoneR wrote,
Yeah, if you think Krugman’s commentary ended in 2009.
For example:
[Paragraphing removed to preempt blockquote fail]
WyldPirate
@Suffern ACE:
George Santayana:
Our “masters of the universe” including the Prez and European leaders appear to be leading a massive FAIL parade because of pig-ignorance.
Litlebritdifrnt
I suppose it would be silly to point out that due to the “austerity” measures 180K teaching jobs have gone kaput.
According to Nate Silver that is.
WyldPirate
@liberal:
Put two “__” between paragraphs. That will fix the blockquote fail.
Downpuppy
Looking at the BLS data, government jobs were down 39,000 for the month, 660,000 for the year.
Cutting jobs means less people employed. It’s a bleeding tautology, but still too complicated for the Serious People.
liberal
@41 homeruk wrote,
No. Stimulus (expansionary fiscal policy) is “demand size”.
From the Wikipedia article on supply side economics:
The Snarxist Formerly Known as Kryptik
@Litlebritdifrnt #46:
Of course it would be silly. That sounds like dirty fucking hippie talk, and everyone knows that they don’t deserve to be in this country, forget ever be listened to.
WyldPirate
@The Snarxist Formerly Known as Kryptik:
No and No.
/SATSQ
Tim F.
I don’t know any more. How he handles the Republicans sometimes makes me want to break a wall with my face. If I really did believe, like Krugman does, that Obama believes the economic theories that he defends in public then he is already 90% in the Republican camp. In that case he is essentially writing his own political doom.
It feels more and more like he bends over backwards to people like Mitch McConnell who hate him and spend every waking minute trying to destroy him, while he seems to despise and resent his earnest supporters on the left.
Maybe I’m wrong and he has some grand plan to win this fight and turn the economy around. For everyone’s sake I sure as hell hope so.
homeruk
liberal thanks for that. i knew i was misunderstanding something.
liberal
OzoneR wrote,
Uh, yeah. IMHO there was no consensus for invading Iraq. Bush 43 turned that around, somehow.
Yeah, sure, Obama/Dems have a much more difficult problem on their hands than one of “how do we fan the flames of war?” But the notion that you can’t lead people is nonsense.
boss bitch
@WyldPirate:
You are calling for rhetoric while telling me rhetoric is not a plan.
Give me a plan to get a jobs bill passed. Lay it out in detail how Obama should get a bill passed in the Republican House and then in a conservative Senate that has broken records in obstruction. I also want you to keep in mind that you, Krugman and a good portion of the professional left have said Republicans don’t want any compromise, they are evil and have every intention of seeing this country fail. Give me the plan. I ask for a plan because at some point the talking wears off and voters want results. So I know what you want Obama to say, that’s the easy part. Once he says it, then what? What is Krugman’s plan to get his wish list passed?
Hugh
@homeruk #41
Not being an economist either, my understanding of well-crafted stimulus is that it puts money directly into the pocket of middle and working class people who are far more likely to spend that money than are rich people.
Regarding your first point. I don’t know what can be done about jobs right now if more stimulus won’t pass (which doesn’t mean anything except I really don’t know). But if Obama isn’t talking about jobs now he’ll look very lame when he has to talk about jobs in a reactive way down the road in response to Republican talking points. He won’t look like a leader that’s for sure. Seems to me he can talk about jobs now and all the ways Republicans prefer tax cuts for rich people to creating actual jobs programs.
liberal
@52 Tim F.:
Agreed.
Bill Murray
well at 200k+ new jobs, which is like 50-100k jobs over population growth, 160M people in the work force leading to at least 3M extra jobs being needed to get to 6-7% unemployment requires 2.5-5 years — in 18 months this would mean around 8% unemployment.
Krugman did poraise Obama’s first budget proposal http://crooksandliars.com/john-amato/paul-krugman-praised-president-obamas-n and the ACA proposal http://www.americablog.com/2009/05/krugman-praises-obama-over-health-care.html
liberal
@45 Wyldpirate wrote,
IIRC Krugman pointed out that the Europeans are actually worse than our guys. (I think they’re raising rates over there.) Now that’s saying something!
Evolved Deep Southerner
“Where are the Job Creators?” is more like it.
If the wealthy are going to just hoard their last few quarters worth of (excellent) profits and not use it to hire anyone, then it undercuts the “But we can’t penalize our Job Creators with higher taxes!” argument, does it not? If they won’t hire anyone, tax the fuck out of them and create a modern-day CCC and other analogs to the “pump priming” programs created by FDR. No matter how fucking friendly the Obama administration tries to be to the business community (sic), they’re going to bitch and fight him, so why not give them something worth bitching and fighting about?
MomSense
Could we get a transcript of President Obama’s presser? I seem to recall that one of his big points was that there are a lot of bills in the congressional pipeline right now that would create jobs. He went on to say that these have traditionally enjoyed bipartisan support and that he came to the conclusion that the Republicans are just playing politics.
In every single interview/speech I have heard him give he talks about jobs. Why is everyone so focused only on sending President Obama messages, listening only to what he says (but then ignoring what he actually says), and pressuring him to do the right thing. Shouldn’t we be putting at least as much of the onus on the people who are actually responsible for legislating and spending the money?!?!
A good 95% of the blogosphere could use a civics 101 class–or even just a viewing of Schoolhouse Rock’s “I’m just a bill”.
WyldPirate
@boss bitch:
Horseshit. You had Jay Carney up there on the podium doing a goddamned George Orwell impersonation yesterday. You had David Plouffe talking shit about “unemployment won’t really matter”. You have Obama talking horseshit about belt-tightening, shared-sacrifice, etc, ad nauseum.
This bullshit is straight out of the Austrian school of economics. It was an epic Fail for Hoover and it is going to bite Obama in the ass as well unless he is damned lucky and the Rethugs nominate the craziest psychopath in their clown car.
Krugman is right now and he was right two years ago when he was screaming at the top of his lungs in the NYT that the stimulus was at least 50% too small. But WTF did Obama do? He didn’t go big into the negotiations from the start and hammer the Rethugs. He slashed his own proposal top something smaller and ignored both history and good economic advice. He capitulated out of the goddamned gate.
Bobby Thomson
I certainly care. Republican intransigence calls for more talk, not less, but here we are.
The Snarxist Formerly Known as Kryptik
@Tim F. #52:
@Bobby Thomson #63:
This, and This.
liberal
@41 homeruk wrote,
AFAICT economic historians say downturns after massive financial crises are the nastiest. As opposed to the conventional post-WWII downturn we’re used to: Fed hikes rates to cut inflation, economy cools, Fed lowers rates.
So the fact that the jobs situation sucks is a reflection of just how badly we (well, the entire developed world) were hurt by the housing bubble burst.
DecidedFenceSitter
@liberal: Yeah he turned it around – by lying and playing to the anger and fears.
boss bitch
Oh hey look. Another thread blaming Obama for the economy while shouting that he doesn’t blame Republicans for the economy.
One thing that Repubs have on their side is a right wing media that adopts their talking points and sticks to them 24/7 and has done so for decades. Democrats have no such thing but have people who are demanding that they have the same stealth messaging as Republicans. Every liberal/Dem commentator should either tow the party line, shut the fuck or stop whining about Dem messaging.
Like Tim F said:
MomSense
I challenge all of the posters here to attach your legislative strategy to your critiques. Count up the fucking votes and watch your theories FAIL!
And yes, I am putting .50 in the swear jar.
Bob
The messaging isn’t really that hard:
In 2011 the stimulus ended, the Bush tax cuts were extended and the economy stopped growing. Why do we need to return to that?
WyldPirate
@boss bitch:
Obama is shit out of luck now because he fucking BLEW IT by being a timid bitch for 2.5 years, hiring shitty advisors, etc.
It’s not my goddamned job to come up with the plan you
bossdumb bitch. Obama is the leader of the fucking Free World and has a fucking staff of tens of thousands. They fucking blew it by being a bunch of timid pussies.Obama may very well pay for his goddamned timidity as well with his job.
Chris
I back this up: bull fucking shit. I remember being queasy as hell about the health care bill myself, and I remember quite clearly Krugman’s arguments in support of it being one of the main factors that made me support it also.
There are plenty of people out there with a pathological hatred of the President, right wingers, left wingers, center wingers or whatever-the-fuck-have-you. Paul Krugman isn’t one of them. And at some point, the community of Obama supporters needs to acknowledge that not every single person who criticizes the man does it because he “hates” them or because of some other psychological derangement.
Bill Murray
Hugh @56
I’m not an economist either, but alot depends on what you mean by puts money directly into the pocket. Tax breaks can do this but aren’t particularly stimulative, while providing projects that result in more jobs is very stimulative. As I understand it it is all in the multiplier effect — a tax break doesn’t effect everyone and primarily effects people who are already getting most of their needs satisfied, while a job for the jobless will allow someone who is likely not meeting all their needs to do so. So more spent, more multiplying throughout the economy and this builds on itself. IIRC (and I probably don’t) tax cuts have a multiplier around 1.3 (for every dollar spent you get a dollar thirty back) while new jobs run more like 2.5
Bobby Thomson
It’s impossible to get a good jobs bill passed in this Congress. Can’t be done. The only thing left to do is run against Congress as Truman did in ’48.
The only thing we can expect out of this Congress is a vote to raise the debt limit, and only because the people who own Congress want it. They just don’t want their fingerprints on it. But jobs legislation? Are you on crack?
Unfortunately, the unemployed are just going to have to weather it out another year and a half. It sucks, but that’s the cost of Republican governance.
WyldPirate
@Bob:
This. Plus this:
The Bush tax cuts were supposed to stimulate the economy and create jobs. Since their institution, America has lost X thousands of jobs while the population of workers has grown. The Bush tax cuts to the rich do not create jobs.
Bill Murray
here’s a theory — propose a bill that would add jobs, have a vote. Even assuming it won’t pass, you have on record who supported increasing jobs. By proposing nothing, the message is no one cares. Politics isn’t just about passing legislation, it’s about showing what you stand for.
gene108
We’ve already found out.
For a good chunk of this country, the only way to create jobs is to cut regulations and lower taxes.
Anything else is a “Job Killing ____________ Law Act”.
For the rest, I think people are too frustrated to realize tax cuts and deregulation aren’t going to create jobs, but since Democrats and President Obama are “Johny on the Spot”, they will get the blame and the wrath of voter backlash.
WyldPirate
@Tim F.:
You’re not wrong, Tim F. At some point, as Krugman says, you have to believe that Obama has bought into this austerity shit.
The Krugman blog post I quoted in #2 above has this interesting tidbit at the end:
OzoneR
I disagree, I think there was a consensus to invade Iraq, otherwise Bush wouldn’t have done it.
Linda Featheringill
I read the NYT article on the jobs report and now I am thoroughly depressed.
MomSense
Bill Murray,
Please go to votesmart.org and see how many bills have died in the Senate and House that would have created jobs. There are a lot of them!!
You are seriously low information to think that there haven’t been job bills proposed and that Republicans are not on record having either not voted for them or having prevented them from even coming up for a vote.
And I am not going to go and look them all up for you. I think you should do the work and maybe even report back to the rest of us how wrong you were.
boss bitch
JESUS CHRIST TIM, ITS CALLED POLITICS!
Next time try to remember that Barack Hussein Obama beat the Clinton Dynasty to become the first Black president in THIS country and proceeded to rack up achievements that no other Dem prez was able to get. And despite the economy is STILL popular, more popular than all of Congress, is beating almost if not every Republican candidate in their own home state and gets 8%, 8 fucking percent of the blame for the recession. Which of Krugman’s liberal heroes, who say all the right (left) things have gotten anywhere close to that?
I will keep saying this forevah – Liberals are the last ones to be giving advice on politics. They clearly don’t see it when its at work. They allowed their name to become so poisonous that some hide under the label Progressive. And they continuously complain that they don’t control the party because of mean ole (wimpy, limp wristed, spineless) Democrats. They refuse to accept how Americans think and working with that to win elections and instead choose to stick to some BS about principles. I will never forget reading that article from Arianna where she advised Obama not to move to the center during the general because he would lose the base and would lose the race. LOL!!! And so many of the professional left agreed with her. LOL!! and then I can’t even count all the times since then that liberals have said Obama was finished or that he has totally lost his base or some bill really sucks only to find that all the polls show that you are still as clueless as ever. Krugman can stick to policy but he needs to shut the fuck up on how to get it accomplished.
OzoneR
I don’t think every single person who criticizes the President hates him.
I do, however, think Krugman does.
Lol
No one gives any credit for “trying” or “showing what you stand for”, not even the left.
How much credit did Obama get from the left for trying and failing to pass a tax bill that didn’t extend the tax cuts for the rich? (Yes, there was a vote.) Zero. Most lefties don’t ben know it happened.
How much credit did Obama get for trying and failing to pass the DREAM Act? Absolutely none.
But these same people who won’t give credit for trying are convinced the public will care if Obama tries and fails.
Xenos
Do you want to know when the jobs are coming back?
They are not.
Not with a stimulus, nor without it. Not with fixing the mortgage mess, nor leaving it along in a state of malign neglect. Not with raising taxes, not with lowering them, not with leaving them unchanged. Not with massive investment in green energy, not with staying in a coal economy, not with drill, baby drill.
High tech, low tech, no tech. Nothing will turn things around.
Even with the most enlightened budget ever, we need 30 years and to write off a couple generations, just to get back to 1979, when we decided to throw the country away on a series of get rich schemes and a dozen financial bubbles.
Nobody has a solution, because nobody wants to admit this fact.
MomSense
Wyld Pirate, I challenge you directly to lay out your legislative strategy. Present your superior proposal. Share with us your strategy for swaying our Senators and Representatives. Count the votes for us right now. Dazzle us with your brilliance. I haven’t seen one constructive post from you yet. You deconstruct like nobody’s business but you seem incapable/unwilling to ever post a proposal and provide a realistic strategy for how it could become law.
OzoneR
lest Corner Stone come here and mock you for saying “Nothing Can Be Done”
Xenos
Plenty can be done, but the American public does not want to admit that it is at fault, and has to sacrifice like hell just to stop the decline. I hope that moment comes around while Obama, or someone like him, is still in charge.
MomSense
Boss Bitch I think I love you! #81 is spot on.
WyldPirate
@OzoneR:
Some data say you would be wrong.
Probably just like you are wrong about Krugman.
I hope it doesn’t hurt you too much pulling all this stuff out of your ass, though.
ETA: And you also disregard the fact that Bush got what support he did by having his minions just flat out fabricating “evidence” as well and putting his most credible voice in front of the UN to pass on those lies to win approval.
whoops. misread my poll data in the link. I retract that
OzoneR
what data? This data says nothing about the public’s support for war before it started.
That’s nice, but that UN presentation happened months AFTER Congress authorized the war, a move that was quite popular.
Citizen_X
There damn sure was a consensus to invade somewhere, anywhere, after 9/11, along as it was populated by someone swarthy. We’re lucky we didn’t decide to invade Mexico.
aisce
generally, if you want to pass yourself off as a realist and a fatalist, you shouldn’t then be pounding your keyboard with rage and demanding people “give me a legislative strategy, noooooowwww!!”
to put it quite simply, if you truly believe that nothing can be done, you shouldn’t give a shit about what anybody says otherwise. because why bother?
WyldPirate
@OzoneR:
This disputes what you say.
But what the fuck does it matter if it was “months after the AUMF”?. There was a concerted propaganda campaign by the Bush administration for months conflating 9/11, Bin Laden Saddam Hussein, Mushroom clouds and all that shit. That propaganda campaign massively swayed public opinion which result in the support in the polls.
OzoneR
Sure sounds like a consensus to me, and that’s over a year before.
Georgia Pig
Man, everyone woke up on the wrong side of the bed today. From where I sit, Obama’s making the best of a pretty shitty hand, but what do I know, I’m an Obot. A lot of folks here seem to forget that this is the same country that elected Richard Nixon, Ronald Reagan and George W. Bush, the latter merely a few years ago. There are dozens of certifiable lunatics in the House and Senate, duly elected by their addle-brained constituents. The press is a bunch of courtiers, whores and assorted other sleazebags. Paul Krugman is a brilliant guy, but he’s an academic who has never run anything other than an economics conference. I guess it’s pretty bad when you feel you have to challenge a guy calling himself “WyldPirate” as to what his legislative strategy is. Maybe you should ask him how he motivates his crew — booty or “booty”? Did I miss this place becoming a diary at DailyKos?
gene108
PRESIDENTS DO NOT HAMMER THE OPPOSITION!!!!
The President’s supporters in the media and other organized PR groups, like think tanks, do the heavy hammering, along with maybe some grass roots or astroturf protests.
Bush, Jr. never called Democrats or anti-war protesters “America Haters”, “Nazi Stalinists”, or whatever other insults were hurled around in 2003 and 2004.
That was left to Rush Limbaugh, Fox News, Robert Novak, et. al.
I’m sick and tired of hearing about how President Obama should be “tough”. It’s not his job to be tough on Republicans.
It’s our job to be tough on Republicans.
With the Right-Wing domination of the media, it’s a very uneven fight.
I don’t see the point in helping Republicans be echoing their talking points that President Obama is weak, ineffective, etc.
If people spent as much time bashing Republicans as they do bemoaning President Obama for not “being tough”, there might be a chance to move the country left.
I think a lot of liberals have embraced the “boy-will-be-boys” idea about Republicans. They just accept Republicans will behave badly, so they don’t waste their breath trying to highlight such bad behavior.
OzoneR
For the record, this blame for the bad jobs report is on…stalemate
Perhaps if Obama can just control the weather.
WyldPirate
@OzoneR:
A consensus overlapping the margin of error. A consensus by a nose. It swelled based on lies.
For fucks sakes, I would imagine a good 65% of Americans could find Iraq on a map either then or now. And it is no suprise. We live in a country of fucking barbarians that like to kill brown people. We always have and still do.
Not something I’m proud of and I don’t really understand your point and what it has to do with the fact that the economy is in the tank other than the fact that these wars were conducted while massive tax cuts were put into effect; something that was unprecedented in US history, BTW.
WyldPirate
@gene108:
Nice fucking excuses, gene108.
Poor, poor, Barry. He’s just fucking helpless isn’t he? Everyone is agin’ him. He has no money or influence whatsoever to change a thing.
Enjoy those fucking excuses as you wave buh-bye to him in Jan 2013….
OzoneR
You answered your own question. Americans are stupid, so they support stupid things, like bombing countries for fun and massive tax cuts.
At what point are liberals going to realize using logic to an illogical-thinking public is failing.
MomSense
Aisce,
I actually think that we have gotten a lot done. I think that the people who complain the most are a combination of misinformed, unrealistic, and tactically imbecilic. It is easy to criticize, easy to be the opposition but much more difficult to govern. I am of the school that criticism ought to be constructive. Otherwise it becomes just a contest to see who is most clever on the internets. Meanwhile the Republicans are “holding a gun to our heads” as Warren Buffet accurately called it and the liberal/progressive/left/somewhat sane people are too busy aiming their slingshots at each other to take on these traitorous, power hungry, ego maniacs.
liberal
OzoneR wrote,
52%/42% is a consensus for going to war? LOL.
OzoneR
You know what, we will. If he loses, it’s going to be because his election was a fluke and he never should have been there in the first place and quite frankly if McCain had picked anyone else for VP or Lehman Brothers hadn’t collapsed in September but rather December, he wouldn’t have been, energized base and all.
In 2008, I proceeded to tell every lefty I knew that they were electing someone who is going to be completely hamstrung in every way, by a scandal-loving right wing media, by an apathetic base, by a public devoid of logic and an opposition willing to cut its own wrists to bring him down. I was mocked, spit on, told to shut up, even, hilariously, called a PUMA, even though I thought Hillary would have had the same problem.
I was right, I’m not sorry about that. Because despite all that being true, he’s still exceeded any expectations I had.
liberal
@101 Momsense wrote,
Nonsense. Yglesias had a very good argument showing that the right thing for Obama to do re the debt ceiling was state he would sign no bill that had any strings attached, and thereafter refuse to negotiate.
While governing is difficult, often requires compromise, blah blah blah, this simply wasn’t one of those cases.
OzoneR
yes it is
liberal
@gene108 wrote,
Huh? When I say Obama should be “tough,” I mostly want him (well, it’s too late now, but…) to get up there and say he will not sign any bill to raise the debt ceiling that has strings attached.
OzoneR
I honestly thought Yglesias was joking when I read that. Why would he VETO a bill raising the debt limit and cause a default, this accepting blame for it?
OzoneR
Here is spineless Democrat Carolyn Maloney of New York’s statement on the jobs numbers
See how many media outlets run with it
OzoneR
He did say that liberal, he said that and Boehner told him to go fuck himself.
gene108
It’s not an excuse. It is a fact.
The nasty crap you hear from right-wingers DOES NOT COME FROM ELECTED REPUBLICAN POLITICIANS, ESPECIALLY A SITTING REPUBLICAN PRESIDENT.
Those assholes stay above the name calling and mudslinging, for the most part.
It’s the people in the media, who stir shit up.
If you want to fight against Republicans, you need a liberal response in the media, which is heavy on Republican bashing and light on Obama bashing.
Again, it’s not an excuse. It’s the reality of how politics work.
liberal
@gene108 wrote,
What’s the point in Obama helping the Republicans by echoing their talking point that it’s important to balance the budget, here and now?
ruemara
Liberal
You do know he did ask for a clean bill, right?
liberal
@109 Ozone wrote,
Because he wouldn’t get the blame for it.
OzoneR
In the meantime, I got a right wing nut friend of mine bitching about the debt, then complaining Obama cut the shuttle program and thus cut jobs.
I asked him “but you support cutting teachers and other government works, why are you screaming about NASA”
He didn’t respond
WyldPirate
@OzoneR:
Perhaps we should just all wait for the demise of the country and the rebuilding from the ash heap of history then.
Of course, the Urinary Olympiads should continue on Balloon Juice as a form of cheap entertainment as the country crumbles. ;)
liberal
@ruemara wrote,
I guess you can’t read: I added: and thereafter refuse to negotiate. That’s the whole point.
OzoneR
not if he didn’t get a bill, no. If the House never passes a bill, they get blamed for it, but if Obama vetoes one, they get to stand on their laurels and say “We did what we didn’t want to do, Obama wouldn’t negotiate. He let the country go into default because he wouldn’t cut spending” (which is popular)
You want him to do the very thing you want him to criticize the Republicans for doing, being unreasonable. It doesn’t make any sense.
Commenting at Balloon Juice since 1937
I wish Obama would grand stand a bit on the issues of jobs with respect to the debt ceiling crap. ‘These Rupublicans ran on creating jobs. Where are the jobs? They have passed (X number) of ideological bills since January. Where are the jobs? Now they are acting irresponsibly and are trying to crash the economy. What are they doing to to increase employment?’ Throw it back into their faces.
OzoneR
what help? they already won.
This is like saying the Mets are helping the Phillies by admitting they have the best record in the league.
liberal
@OzoneR 114,
In the deadtree ed of the Wash Post, some Federal Voices thing, some asshole working on space or military stuff said similar stuff about the necessity of cutting lots of waste from the Fed budget.
Don’t have time to find the quote from a few years ago on this forum or another about libertarians dreaming of sex with robots on the surface of Mars.
gene108
How can you be “tough”, when your base will throw you under the bus, if you stay “tough” in this game of chicken to raise the debt ceiling?
The Republican base would love to not raise the debt ceiling and default on paying the Chi-Com’s their interest payments or gut Social Security and Medicare.
I don’t see the Democratic base rewarding President Obama, when the economy takes a nose-dive because we can’t make (1) Social Security payments, (2) have to furlough or lay off many federal employees or (3) default on the debt.
President Obama seems to have everything to lose and nothing to gain, by not raising the debt ceiling by August 2, 2011.
Lol
The stimulus started at around $1.5 trillion according to Dem House members who were actually involved in the process and got whittled down by the reality of the Senate. But that’s inconvenient to the “Obama sold us out” narrative so lefties ignore it.
OzoneR
what is this supposed to accomplish, I don’t understand.
OzoneR
I’ve actually made the argument for this once or twice.
No, I think liberals need to change the way they operate. They need to reach the ignorant and the apathetic in new ways.
Use their words against them, use people who look like them. We won gay marriage in New York by having religious leader, suburban tough guys and athletes come out in favor of it, it swayed people because those making the arguments looked and sounded like them and came from their backgrounds. Liberals NEED to do some of that
liberal
OzoneR wrote,
First, I dont’ think it would ever get to that; the Wall St lobbyists would start crucifying the Republicans, because they’d have hte most to lose.
Second, Obama wouldn’t necessarily get blamed, just like Clinton wasn’t blamed.
How is demanding that the bill to raise the debt ceiling be clean unreasonable?
Furthermore, from the rhetoric coming from the Republicans, it’s clear that they’re demanding total capitulation. So why negotiate with them?
Yeah, failure to raise the debt ceiling would be very bad, but you have to draw the line somewhere.
OzoneR
This is ridiculous because a month ago the left was saying the Republicans were bluffing and the President should get involved in negotiations and he didn’t until it became clear they weren’t bluffing and now that he is, we’re hearing he needed to do what he did a month ago, demand a debt ceiling bill with no string attached (which is very unpopular) and then stay away from negotiations.
This is what pisses me off about the left, they keep demanding Obama do what he’s been doing, because they can’t admit it’s not working.
It’s like blaming the surgeon for not doing surgery on the patient who died on the operating table.
gene108
I don’t know.
Maybe because Republicans rode the talking point about the deficit to a take over of the House, nearly taking over the Senate, if a few Tea Party candidates hadn’t beaten establishment Republicans in Senate primaries, and taking over several state wide elections.
For whatever reason that talking point, when ARRA was being voted on, gave the Republicans the ability to build a counter narrative to the Bush-bashing that had been going on since 2006 and it worked.
liberal
OzoneR wrote,
Yes, though that’s a long-term project. One that’s not helped by Democrats like Obama issuing rhetoric that elides the differences between Republicans and Democrats.
NobodySpecial
I love watching Nick bitch about ‘liberals’ using logic against the illogical, and then peppering his stuff with anecdotes of him trying the same thing regarding NASA and gov’t jobs.
Why do you people even pretend to take him seriously?
liberal
gene108 wrote,
Sure. Unemployment rates north of 9% had nothing to do with it. The political science empirical literature on the impact of high unemployment on elections doesn’t exist. Polls showing that the public rates jobs as a much higher issue (#1 IIRC) than the deficit don’t exist.
The stupid, it burns.
Corner Stone
@Lol:
No it didn’t. Cite please.
liberal
@129 Nobody Special wrote,
You saying Ozone Man is “Nick,” our beloved former handle who was once accused of anti-Semitism, who thought (IIRC) Japan was suffering from high inflation (rather than near deflation) during its lost decade, who (etc)…?
liberal
@129 Nobody Special wrote,
Who said we do? Me, I’m just taking a break at work.
:-)
OzoneR
Well that’s your problem, you do realize Wall Street lobbyists have already done that to no avail and that’s why Obama got directly involved.
You clearly missed this part
He recovered AFTER the shutdown, when it was solved, mainly because of stupid PR moves by Gingrich
It’s not, he did that, he didn’t get that, keep demanding the same thing in the face of a default is unreasonable.
cause they won and they have power.
I draw the line at not making things worse.
NobodySpecial
@132 Liberal:
Yeah. Fairly obvious even though he tries to hide it. Thought everyone knew by now.
EDIT – Your snark is delicious. Please send more.
Corner Stone
IMO, one part of the job of an elected official, especially at a high level, is to find a way to do the job they were elected to do.
If we’re supposed to figure out how to do their job for them, then why are we paying them?
OzoneR
Obama cannot reach them. What he says is pointless, he can’t help.
WyldPirate
@OzoneR:
Ignorance is fixable, but stupid runs to the bone.
liberal
@135 Nobody special,
Yeah, I guess the stuff about the American public being hopelessly stupid and right-wing, and how there’s no way the Dems can overcome that, is the same.
Not quite as obvious as the stuff posted by “My Taco’s Tan” and her following handles, though.
OzoneR
I think it’s the other way around.
liberal
Corner Stone wrote,
Well, there indeed might be no way forward. But they should at least try, for f***’s sake.
OzoneR
I don’t believe that. I think there’s definitely ways to overcome it, and I’ve mentioned them and you’ve mocked me for them.
I don’t think the left is interested in those ways however.
OzoneR
He has tried, he tried when arguing for the stimulus, he tried when arguing for more infrastructure spending (high speed rail), he tried when arguing against tax cuts for the rich and, predictably, he failed.
He’s not trying anymore, he CANNOT do it.
Someone else probably can, but not him.
liberal
@134 OzoneR wrote,
OK, you want to negotiate with terrorists, I don’t. Please change your handle to “ChickenLittle.”
Corner Stone
@boss bitch:
bitch, it’s the Dems in Congress who are paying the price with their jobs. Chanting in unison about a “Recovery Summer” probably would not have helped them.
OzoneR
This sounds awfully Cheneyish.
That’s what’s funny so about the left, the only terrorists we should negotiate with are the ones who are actually blowing shit up and killing people.
Republicans, however, now we need to turn into Dick Cheney.
liberal
OzoneR wrote,
No he didn’t. Re the debt ceiling, pace chicken littles like you and pace Obama ass-kissers like Memwhatsherface, he could have just stuck to his guns. And he didn’t.
LOL. Might want to go back to that archive of columns from your favorite Obama hater (Krugman) and learn something.
OzoneR
Now you don’t want him to try, liberal, you want him to sent the country in default just to stick it to the Republicans. That’s ridiculous. That is not a fight he would’ve won and you know it.
OzoneR
learn what? Did or did not Obama make the case that government spending creates jobs? It doesn’t matter the stimulus was small, it matters what it meant, doesn’t it?
You’re complaining he’s using right wing rhetoric, he certainly didn’t concerning the stimulus, high speed rail, green technology, tax cuts. Are you denying otherwise because it wasn’t big enough?
James E. Powell
@OzoneR:
There was no consensus to invade Iraq, specifically, but there was widespread demand that the U.S. military kill some Muslims, somewhere, anywhere.
NobodySpecial
JEP:
…which is why there was a large consensus to go to Afghanistan, pull Osama out of his caves by the balls, and hang the fucker and anyone who wanted to protect him.
Iraq? Not so much. It consistently polled lower than Bush Sr.’s war, to the point where at least one poll showed a majority opposing invasion if Bush didn’t get an ok from the UN Security Council.
Nick is making shit up. As usual.
Heliopause
No, because from the start Obama has not painted Republicans as the people who are killing his jobs program, he’s painted them as his golf buddies.
cleek
@Heliopause:
oy. through the muthafucking rabbithole.
OzoneR
Did he NOT compare them to his children? Did he NOT say that they didn’t believe the greatest country in the world could do what Brazil and India did.
You’re really being selective with your memory here.
Heliopause
Talk about selective memory. Apparently in your world one-off comments every few months trump daily shows of bipartisan fealty.
The reason you notice when Obama calls the Republicans a bunch of creeps (and the left in general gets very excited for a news cycle) is because he so seldom does it. The consistent image he has projected is of everybody’s buddy who is trying to bring all sides together. That’s fine, it’s his schtick, it works for him. But if you want a broad spectrum of people to blame Republicans for killing jobs then you have to get out there and blame Republicans for killing jobs, every single day, over and over. A sarcastic remark about Malia’s homework isn’t going to turn the tide.
Lawnguylander
This:
Is fiction. You made that shit up. Obama and others are out there making various economic arguments that have nothing to do with the deficit all the time. And this:
You’re not listening to anything that isn’t being filtered to you by your preferred media sources but he does talk about jobs all the time. You are one of the stupid, angry people with memory issues you mentioned in comments up there, Tim F. Congratulations.
@gene108
In the Liberal Punditry for Dummies book, it’s a checklist item that must be completed before moving on to attacking the White House for their “messaging.” It’s seems to be a very widely read book.
And I don’t know about angry but you’d have to be a very stupid indeed and for sure lacking in long term political memory to think that running away from this fight over the national debt with the Republicans would have worked out at all. Same thing with thinking that running away would have equaled strength. The Republicans have enough power and they’re crazy enough to force this fight that just saying “I’m only going to sign a clean bill” would have been a promise Obama never could have kept.
HyperIon
Han’s Solo wrote:
C-SPAN was covering the News of the World scandal in Britain last night and I saw a speech by Labour MP Chris Bryant who called out his fellow pols, basically saying “We suck up to the media because we want them to support us in the next election. We are afraid to criticize Murdoch because he has the power to end our political careers.”
linky
This quote is a bit misleading because what Bryant said would not be allowed even in America was one guy owning essentially all of the big media outlets (print AND TV) in a country.
For those playing along, the Tories have been big Murdoch supporters for years.
liberal
Lawnguylander wrote,
Yeah, because negotiating with terrorists works so well.
Lawnguylander
The terrorist analogy applied to American politics is played out and it didn’t work even when it was fresh. Whenever that was. If you’re stupid and boring enough to trot that out and pretend it’s a substitute for an actual argument then it’s entirely appropriate that you spend your days here clogging up these threads arguing with this Nick clown. You’re a couple of cartoon characters. Made for each other.
dogwood
Republicans have no intentions of creating any jobs. They’ll pass lots of tax cut, spending cut, anti -abortion bills that go nowhere and call them jobs bills. Bad jobs numbers are electoral gold for them. We’re going to continue this Baatan Death March and in a year and a half we’ll find out who the electorate blames. I really don’t know how much the pres. talks about jobs, but it’s hard to go all partisan from behind the presidential seal. I don’t believe W ever said vote for Kerry and the terrorists win from the Rose Garden or the Oval Office. Once the pres steps behind that seal ,the ethos of the discourse is defined. It can be powerful but it is restrictive. I don’t know when presidents go into at least part time campaign mode, but that’s where you’ll get the red meat. Congress critters, however, can be in campaign mode 24/7 and it couldn’t hurt for them to get in the game and set some rhetorical predicates for the coming campaign. They’ll really be needed next winter when the Republican primaries start dominating the news.
debbie
Someone with a big megaphone needs to point out how the Republicans insisted during the 2010 campaign that they’d create jobs. To quote Boehner, “We will focus like a laser on jobs.” Then they should quote his response when he was asked about the risk of jobs being lost as states pushed to end collective bargaining for public employees: “So be it.”