I will be the first to admit I do not understand why people like Oliver and Andrew Sullivan are surprised by this poll question:
A staggering 92 percent view the Coalition forces as “occupiers” as opposed to 2 percent who consider them “liberators.”
Shouldn’t 100% of them view as us occupiers? That is what we are, isn’t it? And the idea is to end the occupation as soon as possible.
Also, if they would read the actual polls, the would learn some interesting things. For example, Oliver wrote:
In other words… cut and run, leave Iraq to the whims of Sadr and Sistani… creating an Iranian style theocracy that does nothing to help the spread of democracy or curb middle eastern terror.
Apparently he read nothing but the Yahoo! news piece, because the actual poll itself states:
Moqtada
jeff
I can’t speak for Sullivan, but i think in Oliver’s case, he just sees it as a good excuse to use that ridiculous “but the schools are open” snark that he uses every time he gleefully reports bad news from Iraq.
JPS
Good post. I was amazed at Sullivan’s headline, “We’ve Lost the Iraqis”.
OK, first, I’m not sure we ever “had” them. And second, if in the near future the government we’ve helped install crumbles, or the Kurds split off and get invaded by Turkey, or the Shiites break off and join Iran or set up an Islamic republic of their own, or al Qaeda succeeds in fomenting wall-to-wall chaos: What headline would he left with then?
No, it isn’t all going just great over there. But people who think we’re failing now are allowing themselves to forget just how horribly worse it could be–or could yet become.
JohnO
The Iraqi’s don’t have to love us, just stop trying to kill us. If they hate us yet have no evil intentions, then at least that puts them ahead of the French.
Oliver
My point being that nothing will get done in New Iraq without the blessing of Sistani or Sadr (like even this temporary gov’t) — and those guys don’t exactly strike me as western style democratic leaders.
And I keep saying “the schools are open” because that’s the right’s continual argument to short-circuit criticism.
Jay
And I keep saying “the schools are open” because that’s the right’s continual argument to short-circuit criticism.
Not so Oliver. That’s simply your left wing spin. I commented and left links to tons of good news and the crickets were chirping louder than the cicadas.
And how do you make the leap that because Sadr has high approval that it’s going to take his blessing for anything to be accepted?
Face it. Your trying to equivocate the Iraqi’s feelings about the United States with success or failure.
Kimmitt
Wasn’t part of the point to replace an unfriendly regime with a friendly one?
HH
The point was to get rid of Hussein and put in not a “friendly” leader, so much as a leader that would stop dealing with terrorists and building up weapons programs. If s/he doesn’t like us so much, that alone is fine.
Oliver
Jay – I guess you haven’t being paying attention to the news. Even this powerless transition government had to be approved by Sistani. He’s the one pulling the strings here, and there’s nothing to indicate that he wouldn’t be dealing with terrorists, etc.
Face it, you guys know we should have not invaded Iraq, and especially not the way we did.
tallan
In the next several months, we will find out how things really are in Iraq. I am guardedly optimistic but prepared for anything. This always was a big gamble, but then, any policy vis a vis the middle east is a big gamble.
WildMonk
Don’t you all – but especially the pessimists – think that this is a bit premature? It is as if you are arguing that a 12-month old baby is a failure in life because he isn’t walking yet. More to the point, it should surprise no one that we face an uphill battle in the “hearts and minds” category: every major press outlet here and in the Arab world pounds relentlessly on every misstep by the U.S. and every ‘success’ of the opposition.
Bush’s primary strategic miscalculation was that he failed to realize that the ‘elites’ in this country share more in common with Saddam’s ‘elite’ than with the great unwashed, Bible-thumping masses that they view as Bush’s base. Both elites instinctively mistrust the self-organizing features of modern democratic capitalism and deploy all of the tools at their disposal to subvert it for their own gain. Has elitism, or the syncophants that enable it, ever been different?
Dean Esmay
Since I always feared we faced massive civil wars we’d have to put down–not these piddling hit-and-run matters we’ve been dealing with–I remained rather stunned at how ferociously negative a view people have allowed themselves to swallow over Iraq.
And I quite agree, John: we are occupiers, and of course they want us to leave. What of it? They’ll have their own government soon, and they’ll transition more and more and more to taking care of their own security. We’ll be a presence for a while but a smaller one all the time.
Germany took decades. So what?
blaster
Oliver –
You have a very shallow understanding of the Shi’ites in Iraq.
Here’s the deal – Sistani and Sadr are enemies. Sistani is the leader, if you will, of the largest proportion of the Iraqi population. A Shi’ite population that hates Iran and its theocratic government. Sadr is Iran’s tool.
Anyway, a democratic process will of course result in Sistani’s faction being strongest. But that is good because Sistani and the Iraqi Shi’ites will not be theocratic. And the Sunni’s can either play along in a government that guarantees minorities – i.e., them – rights or fight about it.
There are 145,000 coalition troops, but there are millions of Shi’ites – who won’t care what the NYT has to say, and who are also kinda mad about being oppressed by Sunnis for the past 35 years.
But of course we should have invaded Iraq. We have lots of unfinished business in that part of the world.
Look at the map – where else would we invade Iran and Syria from?
Dorian
It is a simple fact of physics that freedom fighters occupy space where they currently exist.
The goal of the enemy is to cause bullets to occupy the same space as these freedom fighters.
willyb
The problem with Iraq was it was a regime that hated us, that had access to WMD (or the ability to produce WMD, i.e., the know-how, scientists, etc.), and were smack in the middle of a region where most of the people don’t like us very much. And we have known for some time that members of Al Qaeda, as well as other terrorists groups, have had contact/connections with Iraq. What was stopping Saddam, or his variously-labeled gang of thugs, from giving WMD to terrorists that were intent on doing this country harm? Answer, NOTHING!
The fact that we have been able to get rid of Hussein and his sons, and eliminated much if not all of Iraq’s ability to produce WMD, means we have succeeded to a large degree. Even if some capabilitiy still exists, the people attempting to access it will not have the ability to operate unfettered by government interference. The biggest impact on that region will come from building a somewhat democratic country in Iraq. However, even if a Democratic Iraq takes years to build, the current threat to the U.S. has been significantly reduced.
Kimmitt
“This always was a big gamble”
You ain’t kidding on the “big” part — $500 per man, woman, and child in the US and counting.
Not 2 Amused
While loyalty to one’s friends, John, is certainly a most admirable virtue (so kudos to you), my online encounters with Gary Farber have engendered anything but warm fuzzy feelings toward Mr F. He consistently greets any criticism of the merits of his arguments with smug condescension and with what pass (in his unjustifiably confident mind) as pithy little insults. To me, he’s always been a guy who can dish it out put can’t take it. It would take only about 2 minutes’ research to find many posts and comments by Mr F wherein he disparages the intelligence and/or good faith of those who dare to disagree with the Gospel According to America’s # 1 Expert On Past Attorneys General and Current Political Affairs. I say, screw him. While I can’t disagree with you about online etiquette, I think Mr F ought to practice a little of it his own incredibly well-read self — at least before he starts squealing like a little victim.