This is a positive sign that perhaps this loss will finally mete out enough electoral punishment that they will learn:
First, we need to get real. I can’t tell you how optimistic I was going into this election, though, looking back, there doesn’t seem to have been a reason for quite such a sunny view. But I, like most of us, fell for the echo chamber. Daily Kos, MyDD, Steve Soto, Pandagon, and all the other blogs are run by good people with positive intentions, but if they’re you’re primary source for information, you’re outlook is perverted by an overwhelming amount of good news and a general disdain for the factual accuracy of bad news. It perverts your perspective and, because the sample group is so totally different than most of America, it begins to twist your political predictions and assumptions of what works (for more on this, see my article Power Trippi).
Not only were you in an echo chamber, but you flat out villified anyone who had the temerity to disagree with you (I don’t mean you specifically, Ezra, but rather, the collective) on any issue.
While Ezra seems to be getting it, Jesse is still in the fever swamps:
Incidentally, I really do believe Bush’s win is based on getting out the homophobic votes for the same-sex marriage amendments across the nation. I get the feeling he won’t get denounced for relying on homophobes to get him into the White House.
This is simply more of the childish, churlish, obnoxious bile that got you where you are. Opposition to gay marriage is not the same as homophobia or bigotry, no matter how many times you say it. Unless, of course, you think that the following percentages of the following electorates are all homophobic bigots:
Arkansas: 75%
Georgia: 77%
Kentucky: 75%
Michigan: 59%
Mississippi: 86%
Montana: 66%
North Dakota: 73%
Ohio: 62%
Oklahoma: 76%
Oregon: 57%
Utah: 66%
A sign of adulthood and maturity is an acceptance that other people’s positions on issues might differ from yours- something the Democratic party simply seems unwilling to understand. Look at recent history:
In favor of the War in Iraq- you have been fooled by the administration that Saddam was behind 9/11 or you are a bloodthirsty jingoist after oil.
In favor of tax relief- you are a greedy sob who hates the poor.
Do I need to go on?
Seriously, although I am glad my side (for the most part) won, the country is not well-served in the long run with such dominance of the electoral process. Until the Democrats come to terms with their deep problems, and manage to learn how to oppose someone on issues without villifying the populaces of entire regions of the country, they aren’t going to win a national race for years to come.
*** Update ***
Like I said, Ezra is learning, although he still seems to think that oppositin to gay marriage is a de facto position of ignorance. For some, maybe. For all, of course not.
Ripper
Come on, John, are you really surprised? Most of the rabid left are textbook examples of the cult mind Eric Hoffer described. They are absolutely convinced of the rightness of their position (which they imagine they have reached through independent thought, but more often simply assumed like a pair of worn jeans), and therefore, anyone who agrees with them is an idiot. “Easily led” fundamentalists, remember? It’s like our trying to speak intelligently to someone convinced the Bilderberg Group runs the world – the left begins with the proposition that their positions are correct and ours are wrong. We must be either dumb or malignant.
Not to say there aren’t intelligent liberals who can defend their positions and argue intelligently. The problem is most of them are Republicans now.
Ripper
Come on, John, are you really surprised? Most of the rabid left are textbook examples of the cult mind Eric Hoffer described. They are absolutely convinced of the rightness of their position (which they imagine they have reached through independent thought, but more often simply assumed like a pair of worn jeans), and therefore, anyone who agrees with them is an idiot. “Easily led” fundamentalists, remember? It’s like our trying to speak intelligently to someone convinced the Bilderberg Group runs the world – the left begins with the proposition that their positions are correct and ours are wrong. We must be either dumb or malignant.
Not to say there aren’t intelligent liberals who can defend their positions and argue cogently and cordially. The problem is most of them are Republicans now.
Steve Malynn
Unfortunately, the Ohio measure is overboard – not satisfied with banning gay marriage, the second clause seems designed to strip contractual rights by declaring domestic partner benefits provided by employers “unenforceable”.
Ricky
I’m giving the adolescents until after the weekend before I actually expect a cogent response to the election.
Right now, it sounds like my 4 year old when I tell him it’s time to brush his teeth.
adk46er
I understand your point, even though I don’t agree with people who are against gay marriage. Years from now it will be a non-issue. Sometimes however you have to convince people slowly & patiently via sound arguments, rather than mocking their beliefs. The democrats need to go back to the drawing board and try to get it through their heads that Michael Moore is not helpful. I would make the same claim about Air-America. I’ve only listened to it several times but my conclusion is you won’t win much support from people by constantly mocking their lifestyle and religion. This seems especially true for Marc Maron who (based on what I heard) clearly enjoys making fun of christians.
Kimmitt
Mr. Cole, most of those amendments also ban civil unions. It’s homophobia. You guys won because, among many other things, you turned out the homophobic vote big time.
John Cole
Kimmitt- I am indifferent at best regarding gay marriage, and in favor of civil unions. Furthermore, only Ohio went as far as you posit.
Kimmitt
I made no comment regarding your position, sir; I merely noted the position of your allies.
And if you think that only Ohio’s amendment went that far, you simply did not read the amendments.
Really, it’s okay. You can admit that your side has the homophobes. They got the job done for you, and they’re gonna demand that they get paid, so you probably need to get used to it.
Dodd
Don’t forget Missouri, where it passed with 70% of the vote in a primary election in which over 5/8ths of the votes were cast by Democrats.
Speaking of which, my state (Kentucky) passed it (over my No vote, I might add) and is 2-1 Democrat. California passed it in 2000 (also over my No vote) by 2-1 and is overwhelmingly Democrat. So, by their own logic, Democrats are homophobic bigots.
Ezra
John, you’re an endless disappointment. You truly, truly are. I remember reading you through a comment on yglesias’s website and being so impressed with what I saw. I had my own, small blog and I wished that I could have dialogue with conservatives like you. be careful, it seems, what you wish for.
And yes, anti-gay sentiments are either homophobia, prejudice or ignorance, and often a combination of the above. And if I’ll fight to change them, I will never compromise to accept them. God I’d feel ashamed to be on the same side — to be indebted to! — such a diseased and despicable issue for my win.
Slartibartfast
Those wouldn’t be Kimmitt‘s allies, would they?
John Cole
Weird, Ezra- I congratulate you for recognizing that villifying the entire opposition for holding a different view on an in issue than you is pointless and self-defeating, and you come shit all over me.
I again, fwiw, I am indifferent about gay marriage (or marriage as a government issue to begin with), and firmly in favor of civil unions. I guess I am a bigot, too. Were a ballot initiative for the FMA to appear in my state, or an amendment to the Constitution to ban gay marriage, I would vote against it. I would not, however, simply assume that everyone who did vote differently from me is a homophobic bigot.
What many on the left fail to recognize that this may have been in large part a reaction to judicial interference- all the attempts at creating gay marriage in recent years have been through extra-legal behavior by judges and elected officials, and helped to cause the backlash. Not homophobia, not bigotry, but drawing a line in the sand against judicial activism. I believe it was Judge Dlott the other day who embodied this attitude best when she stated (and I paraphrase)- “I don;t care what they think about my decision- I have a lifetime appointment.”
Slartibartfast
Elsewhere, Mr. Kerry has said he opposes same-sex marriage.
Good thing we didn’t elect that homophobe.
Kimmitt
Good thing we didn’t elect that homophobe.
You know, it’s really cool that you’re scoring rhetorical points and all, but what you seem to be arguing is that antigay sentiment does not exist, or, if it does, that there is no difference whatsoever between the Parties on the issue. Do you really believe this?
Slartibartfast
I’ve noticed that people usually say this just after they’ve stopped engaging in that very thing. Odd, that.
As Dodd noted, quite a few of your allies are voting against gay marriage. How’s that make you feel, keeping company with those homophobes?
adk46er
Ezra,
Who said anything about compromising? You can’t do a Michael Moore and say everyone who doesn’t agree with you is a moron – it just doesn’t work… BTW Since Kerry can’t be a homophobe he must have been lying when he said he was against gay marriage.
Harry in Atlanta
I like John am indifferent to gay marriage. I find getting a marriage license and permission from the state nothing more than regulation and another way to tax people. But it is the law. I am against all government activity in this area. But a large portion of the gay community wants the government to put its stamp of approval on homosexual behavior by legalizing gay marriage. The government has no business approving or disapproving of anyone’s lifestyle unless it is harmful or infringes on the rights of others.
And what really concerns me is the opening of a pandora’s box of fetishers who would demand equal protection under such laws. Hell in Sweden something like 60% of all animals taken to vetinarians have been injured due to bestiality and the Swedes are just now getting around to the realization that sexual relations between people and animals may not be such a hot idea and the Netherlands just last year finally made bestiality illegal. So if you think it can’t get that far think again because in some places it already has.
Plus I live in the state of Georgia and I can’t remember the last time a homosexual couple was dragged from their domicile and prosecuted for their behavior. It just doesnt’t happen. I wish you Christianphobes would get that through your thick skulls.
Kimmitt
How’s that make you feel, keeping company with those homophobes?
Like I have a lot of convincing to do.
It apparently makes you feel like . . . victory.
Plus I live in the state of Georgia and I can’t remember the last time a homosexual couple was dragged from their domicile and prosecuted for their behavior.
The seminal (heh) case regarding antihomosexuality laws (until it was overturned by Lawrence v. Texas) was Bowers v. Hardwick, in which precisely the scenario you describe occurs. The SCOTUS upheld the judgement of the Georgia Supreme Court.
Though I will grant you that antisodomy laws are more commonly used to deny custody or adoption rights.
scott
the second clause seems designed to strip contractual rights by declaring domestic partner benefits provided by employers “unenforceable”.
Who cares if the Gov. won’t enforce these ‘goodies’?
Either your (private) employer offers such benefits, or not.
Thus, you’ll receive such benefits if your employer is willing to offer them- why are you worried about “enforcement”- unless you’re talking about forcing an otherwise unwilling employer to pay for such benefits despite his opposition o them?
I’ll support any benefits for “civil unions” when single, “unattached” heterosexuals are guaranteed to receive the exact same monetary, health insurance(or equivalent salary in lieu of), inheritance, probate, taxation-rate, and Social-ist In-Security survivor/death benefits that are gained from a ‘government approved’ sexual relationship.
I voted for Issue 1 in Ohio- and I’m quite happy about the outcome. After all, when we as a state decide to go for true equality for all citizens- we can change the law again and these differences in current government policy that currently favor married heteros will be eliminated.
Slartibartfast
Of course not. Every bare assertion will fall on believing ears.
There’s that projection thing again. One day the distinction between it and intelligent argument will become clear to you. That’s my hope, anyway.
You’ve tried in the past to paint Republicans en masse as ignorant, bigoted, uncultured rednecks. You’ve ignored the ignorant bigots in your own party, and displayed feats of illogic that are…somewhat inconsistent with your level of education. Pardon me if I find your words unconvincing.
wild bird
Hey i understand that GORE lost in his own home state of TENNESEE and if you cant win your own home state then your day are numbered
kc
I believe it was Judge Dlott the other day who embodied this attitude best when she stated (and I paraphrase)- “I don;t care what they think about my decision- I have a lifetime appointment.”
You’re absolutely right, that’s appalling. Federal judges should tailor their decisions to please the majority.
kc
Hell in Sweden something like 60% of all animals taken to vetinarians have been injured due to bestiality
How can you post that crap with a straight face?
Ricky
FYI,
Bowers v. Hardwick dealt with someone losing their job. No one was taken anywhere and no one was prosecuted for anything.
And that law has since been remedied by the state, as it should’ve been.
Kimmitt still blaming the voters? Fell your pain, dude. Losing sucks, huh?
David R. Block
Uh, Oregon passed it’s no gay marriage referendum.
Oregon went Democratic.
Some Democrats HAD to vote FOR that, or it would not have won.
Math seems to be the one of the casualties of a Democratic loss.
Kimmitt
You’ve tried in the past to paint Republicans en masse as ignorant, bigoted, uncultured rednecks.
No, I argued that the ignorant, bigoted, and uncultured find their home in the Republican Party, not that any given Republican is ignorant, bigoted, and/or uncultured. I know, I know, nuance.
The Dems get a lot of votes from conservative African-Americans who are antigay but are also not fond of Republican policies. But the numbers don’t lie — people who voted based on “values” voted 80 to 20 Republican in the most recent election. Your side wins not least because it panders to homophobia. The proof is, of course, in the policy — which Party sponsored the FMA? Which Party has held up antidiscrimination legislation in the mold of the Civil Rights Acts? And which Party in its Platform has the following phrases:
We affirm traditional military culture, and we
affirm that homosexuality is incompatible with military service.
There are
different ways to achieve that goal, such as using Article III of the Constitution to limit
federal court jurisdiction; for example, in instances where judges are abusing their power
by … potential actions invalidating the Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA).
We further believe that legal recognition and the
accompanying benefits afforded couples should be preserved for that unique and special
union of one man and one woman which has historically been called marriage.
Your sophistry really is quite excellent, but the institutional Republican commitment to antigay legislation and rhetoric can’t be cleared away with a few clever analogies.
Thomas J. Jackson
Let’s hear it for anti soddomite legislation!
Why should civil unions be recognized? Will my employer parbenefits for my live in girl friend? So why should they pay for your live in pal?
Exactly what rights have gays been denied?
I hear the courst have passed queer marrgiage in Canada. Time to start packing Kimmit.
Slartibartfast
Values = antigay?
So Kimmitt says. Who’s the homophobe, here?
Kimmitt
And what do you think “values” is a summary category for? I’m dying to hear this.