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Is here.
*** Update ***
I see the dumbest person on the intertrons has referred to me as a whiny conservative for, well, I guess having the audacity to link to Jeff.
Question: If Amanda Marcotte trips on her penis while walking in the woods, when her head hits the ground, would it sound like lumber?
Answer: Who is Amanda Marcotte and who cares what she thinks?
Comments are closed.
Attention: America is a patriarchy
Before I address this, I’d like to share some crime stats with everyone. (Thanks, Chris Clarke.) For what it’s worth, that the female-on-male murder rate went down while the male-on-female rate stayed steady is something we can actually think the…
jg
Women is SA are treated badly, but the problem also exists in the USA….
Typical liberal, always bashing america first….
Dems could win if they get rid of people who bash america first….
Then I stopped reading, is there a point other than conservatives can’t see past their perceived ‘america bashing’ to understand what people are actually saying?
Saying the problem still exists here isn’t america bashing or blame america first, its take a look at your own backyard before bitching about your neighbors.
SomeCallMeTim
Let’s see, where have I heard a similar argument before? Oh, that’s right: “Blacks [almost certainly not the word to be used] should shut up and be happy. If we’d left them in Africa, they’d be chucking spears at lions.”
Do Democrats go over the line sometimes? Hell, yes – sometimes they go way, way over the line. And it is entirely legitimate to point those times out. But it strikes me that when someone takes a point you’ve conceded, and then builds an argument around it as if you haven’t conceded it, it isn’t unnatural to wonder about the good faith of the responder.
And, let’s be clear: name 10 great things about America, and Democrats/Progressive’s can claim an honorable share of at least eight of them. Southern Republicans, as far as I can tell, can claim none.
ppGaz
Gumbo?
jobiuspublius
Salami! Or, whatever it’s called.
Kimmitt
Man, I hate Democrats and progressives, the way they keep reminding us that the reason things are good here is because, despite everything, on average, we keep pulling this country to the left.
ppGaz
“Blame America First” is a marketing slogan for the right wing noise machine. Apparently we’re being treated to Columbus Day GOP Loyalty Festivus For The Rest Of Us day here.
Two things, kids: One, America is not the Governmet. I can, will, must and am obligated to criticize the government whenever and wherever I see the need to do so. Two, I can’t figure out what sparked Goldie’s rant, but if it’s anything to do with feminism, then he should direct his rant at feminism, not at the “left.” The left in particular, and Democrats in general, do not uniformly embrace feminist preachments. I personally think that most feminism is a crock of shit, but that’s just me. I think a lot of things are a crock of shit.
jobiuspublius
Goldstein doesn’t get progess. Apparently, there is a politcal party devoted to not getting progess and complaining about people who do. And Goldsteins plan is?
goonie bird
The demacrats are nothing but a bunch of whinning idiots they do nothing but complain when there are tax cuts or protection of legidimate buisnesses from frivlous lawsuits why dont they stop being such a bunch of cry babies
Jeff G
Why am I certain you don’t see the irony in that…?
Otto Man
I love the line about how “here in America, we know our past.”
Um, no. You don’t.
What you “know” a fictional past in which America was founded as a religious nation and everyone was happy before those liberals/minorities/women started complaining. It’s a history cobbled together from old episodes of “Leave It to Beaver” and the sermons of Judge Roy Moore.
In general, the conservative ignorance of American history is astounding. The efforts to rehabilitate the reputation of Joe McCarthy, or defend the internment of Japanese Americans, or whatever the current revisionism is today — they’re all pathetic attempts to create a fantasy past to go with the conservatives’ fantasy present.
And when you point out that the professional historians are 99.99% against their creative version of events, all you get is the standard cry of “liberal bias.”
srv
Yeah, right. No doubt Jeff feels alot of angst over forgetting that guilt. He could be writing about all those failings, but 9/11 got in the way…
If the Dems just become a little more patriotic and complained less, they’d, well, be more repubilican. How grand. More hypocrites, more rose-colored glasses.
Inspector Callahan
Since nuance is not an attribute that seems to be shared within this group of commenters, I’ll offer some help:
1. The concept of beating one’s wife because she had a toenail showing IS a more evil concept than a conservative fundie expecting his wife to stay home and make babies. The second wife is not in a coma, or in a hospital; the first one was.
2. Honor killings are also evil, as compared to divorcing your wife because she cheated on you. So women in the U.S. DO have options and are still protected by the law, cheating or not; those in Saudi Arabia don’t.
3. Beating one’s wife is illegal in the U.S. It is not illegal, is in fact encouraged, in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia.
4. Rape is NEVER the fault of the woman in the U.S., and the only people who argue this are either defense lawyers or transplanted Islamists; in S.A., rape IS considered her fault.
See the differences? For the moral-equivalence crowd here, thus ends a lesson in nuance.
John – I think your readers failed the quiz.
TV (Harry)
Kimmitt
Ah, but who is responsible for those differences? The US was not always so different from Saudi Arabia.
DJAnyReason
You know, as a card-carrying left-wing, Deaniac, democratic base liberal, I think Goldstein’s got a point, at least relating to Clarke’s response to Karol. Saying “I’m right, and if you disagree with me you’re a sheep” is rather worthless to developing constructive dialogue, and is obviously going to turn off moderates.
We’ve got a few good (IMO) arguments about the absurdity of the “hate America first” slogan in this very thread, and any of them could’ve been used instead, but Clarke chose to take a classless route, and Goldstein is right to call him out on that.
On the other hand, when you make that point, then say “And yeah—blah blah Michael Savage Rush Limbaugh Ann Coulter blah blah blah,” you lose a little bit of credibility. Its not productive or appropriate from either side, both sides engage in it, and the VAST majority of major pundits who engage in this sort of bullshit are on the right. Minimizing that fact really works to undermine the argument.
Geek, Esq.
It must sting a little bit to be called out on hypocrisy.
In general terms, Conservative Republicans only care about the oppression of women if Muslims are doing it. Take a look at the debate over combatting domestic violence in this country. Compare the ratio of R’s to D’s in the anti-domestic violence activists vs. that in the ‘men’s rights’ movement.
Which party demonizes feminists?
Which party sucks up to homophobes like James Dobson?
Which party is consistently aligned against women’s rights?
The point, dear Goldstein, is that there are those who use the abuses of the Saudis as an exercise in whitewashing the problems in the United States. “Women in Saudi Arabia are caged like animals, and you feminazis are whining about sexual harassment?”
You see, dear Goldstein, if you really care about women’s rights, maybe you should actually walk the walk instead of merely using women’s rights as a club with which to beat the infidels.
Lines
You never see the right using a liberal concept that is blown out of proportion as a stepping stone towards a discussion of how to make America better, because America is always the BEST. We never fail, our track record is perfect and those of you that say different are just revisionists.
Our economy is up, we’ve turned the corner in Iraq, in Israel, and all the socialist countries in Europe are poopy heads. Ignore the elephant in the living room, he’s not really there.
jg
Do you see the irony in what you just said?
Slartibartfast
Somewhere in the dim recesses of America’s past, the killing of women was not only legal but actively encouraged. True or false?
Inspector Callahan
Kimmitt said,
“The US was not always so different from Saudi Arabia.”
Oh, for crying out loud. WHO CARES what the US WAS? How about what it IS NOW?
Look, I’m more than willing to give the left credit in this country for changing the culture into a more permissive, free culture, than it may have been 50 years ago. The left deserves kudos for that. The fact that the left today sees things that are obviously worse, and turns its head (or flat-out condones it), shows how out of control its moral compass is.
It’s time for the left to gain a little perspective.
TV (Harry)
Inspector Callahan
The point, dear Goldstein, is that there are those who use the abuses of the Saudis as an exercise in whitewashing the problems in the United States.
So what? A lot of us aren’t whitewashing. And a lot of us think what happens over there to helpless women is a hell of a lot worse than what happens to most women here. You may think otherwise, and that’s a different argument.
It looks like you’re shooting the messenger. Since the complaint comes from a conservative, you automatically dismiss it out of hand, thinking there is some kind of nefarious ulterior motive.
Did it ever dawn on you that sometimes, when conservatives make such statements, that they actually mean it?
TV (Harry)
srv
If they meant it, they’d be volunteering at rape/crises centers around the country, joining Amnesty International and not trying to co-opt ‘liberal’ concepts and applying them militarily to people they don’t like.
Yes, SA is evil. Now, go back an fill up your SUV.
jg
Who thinks otherwise? His point was that some people see what happens to women over there and use it to say that as long as we ain’t doing that, we ain’t bad. Thats not even close to what you’re saying, leftys think what happens over there ain’t worse than anything going on over here. Way off.
Lines
Just because things are better than they were 50 years ago doesn’t mean things can’t continue to get better.
You’re ok with the mysoginistic tendencies of the right? The acceptance of lower wage levels for women, the glass ceilings that exist in the business place? How about the inability of minority women to overcome even the basest of obstacles?
It was a damn stepping stone for the original blogger to use the treatment of women in SA to launch an argument about how women’s rights in America can still progress to some degree, yet Goldie and his minions of inbred protein strains continues to mock anyone for suggesting it.
But go ahead, feel good about where we are now, don’t let sites like this suggest that things arn’t as rosy as you or Goldie want them to be. There are sects within the US that want Women’s Rights taken back 50 years, or more. Coulter herself said that women shouldn’t be allowed to vote. If you are unable to look around and recognize these weaknesses in America, what else might you be missing?
ARC: St Wendeler
Please, whatever you do, don’t stop talking like this… it’s great! Nothing sells better in the Red States than the inability of the Left to recognize true evil without first pointing out how evil America is.
Regards,
St Wendeler
Another Rovian Conspiracy
ARC: St Wendeler
If they meant it, they’d be volunteering at rape/crises centers around the country
Yes, only “progressives” volunteer at rape/crisis centers.
twit.
CJ
Anyone that believes that getting our own house in order is not important is part of the problem here. Introspection and self-criticism is a condition precedent to achieving anything good (unless one is playing the lottery).
That said, we need to get past the he said – she said bitching that this discussion seems to engender. I would state that we as a nation should not advocate for radical change anywhere in the world until we advocate for the same type of change here. The debate then shifts to whether what we are advocating a ‘good’ thing and to what extent; a much more useful debate in my mind.
And, if we look within and find our own actions are somewhat lacking, we do not have to stop and fix things before we advocate for similar changes elsewhere, so long as we are making good faith efforts to move in the same direction we are telling someone else to go. Similarly, if we have already moved on down the prescribed path a bit and seem to have a lead on others doesn’t mean that we should sit back and rest on our laurels.
We seem to have a situation where some liberal critics say we can’t do anything until we’ve removed the log from our eye and the conservative critics say we shouldn’t remove the log from our eye since the other guy’s log is much bigger than our own. Both sides seem to view this as a particularly good time to get what they want at everyone’s expense, i.e. stop pushing for improvement elsewhere as well as at home. End result? Stalemate.
The only explanation that makes any sort of sense to me regarding why we put up with this type of stalemate situation is that it represents some sort of Darwinian equilibrium that best suits our relatively conservative country. That or we are batshit insane.
CJ
Otto Man
Right, because conservatives never engage in moral equivalence.
Remember all the arguments that Abu Ghraib wasn’t really a problem because it wasn’t as bad as Saddam?
Tim F
cough.
adam
I lived in Saudi Arabia for eight years. Anyone who thinks there’s even a passing resemblance between the average woman’s life in America and there needs to have their head examined (or actually go to Saudi Arabia). Are things perfect here? No. Women make 76 cents on the male dollar, etc.
That said, I’m a liberal, and I’m also getting sick of the inability of a certain portion of the left to levy any criticism toward any group, nation, ideology, etc., without first making it crystal clear that America is surely just as guilty. Although that kind of relativism sometimes has some merit (as with America’s shady military maneuverings over the last 25-30 years), in many cases, it doesn’t, and is just incredibly predictable and tiresome.
Lines
I fail to see anyone calling America evil, except for Conservatives saying that Liberals must feel that way.
Criticism of something doesn’t mean its evil. Everything has greater potential, but I’m beginning to think that Conservatives don’t see potential in anything, except a chance at potential profit from something.
Ancient Purple
Jeff Goldstein wrote:
Oh, really, Mr. Goldstein?
Perhaps you can explain, then, this little tidbit that happened right here in Arizona this year.
Four Republican douchebags stood in the way of a spousal rape law in Arizona despite the fact that the AZ Senate passed it 29-1 and the House would have passed it easily had it gone to the floor for a vote. They killed the bill in committee and told everyone that the bill was bad law. This year.
Four Republicans decided that if you are married and your husband rapes you, then, well, tough shit. Take it like a woman and do it for God and country. This year.
Four Republicans made vomit-inducing statements defending their vote including such appalling bullshit as “When you enter into a marriage, you enter into a contract for all sorts of different things with your spouse. Why should we take it to a Class 2 felony and put a husband away who’s been a good husband for however many years … based off of something that was OK in a marriage up until that point?” This year.
Thankfully, the firestorm was so great that these four clowns had to reconsider the bill and let it out of committee.
So, Mr. Goldstein is flat out wrong that “we know our past.” I will show you four idiots in Arizona that certainly don’t.
I am sure they are not alone.
Inspector Callahan
You’re ok with the mysoginistic tendencies of the right? The acceptance of lower wage levels for women, the glass ceilings that exist in the business place? How about the inability of minority women to overcome even the basest of obstacles?
That is one hell of a straw man. I know of no study, whatsoever, that makes these ridiculous claims. Please prove to me that conservatives are more mysoginistic than liberals. And please prove to me that conservatives are in charge of this phenomenon in the first place (making these rules about women). For example, a lot of business executives vote democrat – just look at the entire entertainment industry.
I have entirely different explanations for your statements above, and they have NOTHING to do with mysoginy.
Regarding minority women, they can’t advance because they’ve been snookered (by the left) into believing they can’t. Your statement that they can’t makes that point. I believe they can, with the right mentoring, and the right incentives.
Regarding salary levels – when you compare salaries of women with men with the same experience levels, they are virtually the same:
And lastly,
Just because things are better than they were 50 years ago doesn’t mean things can’t continue to get better.
And just because things can continue to get better, it doesn’t mean we have to ignore the worse things going on around the world, until we are at that utopian level. Since utopia ain’t gonna happen, there will never be a point in this country where the left will try to advance the cause of Saudi Arabian women.
It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy.
TV (Harry)
Slartibartfast
Misogyny. Misogynist.
Spelling flame off.
Inspector Callahan
Thankfully, the firestorm was so great that these four clowns had to reconsider the bill and let it out of committee.
Ancient Purple,
This last statement ironic. Can’t you see this proves that Americans are different!! Nobody is saying things are perfect here. I certainly didn’t.
The fact is that in Saudi Arabia, the guy who even tried to bring the original bill to the floor would have been beheaded. The fact is that spousal rape is the norm in SA.
Thanks for making my point.
TV (Harry)
Inspector Callahan
Thanks, Slart – I don’t use that word very often, but I’ll keep the spelling in mind.
TV (Harry)
Lines
Ah, I’m sorry Harry, but most countries don’t have a single track mind.
Is it because in the saying “remove the log from thine eye before removing it from thy neighbor” that Conservatives have the inability to do both at the same time?
Both things can be done. We can improve our own conditions for women while doing more for other countries. We should also recognize that its easier to be introspective, because we can change our policies through voting and buying habits (to a much lesser extent).
But of course, to a weak mind, doing two things at once is impossible.
adam
I think part of the problem is that when a certain breed of liberal says, “yes, but…” the “but” portion sounds a lot louder than the “yes.” Kind of like, “Yes, yes, Saudi women are oppressed, BUT LOOK AT HOW FUCKING OPPRESSIVE AMERICA IS.” I wouldn’t mind the “yes, but” formulation so much if people emphasized the first part as much as the second.
Geek, Esq.
So what? A lot of us aren’t whitewashing. And a lot of us think what happens over there to helpless women is a hell of a lot worse than what happens to most women here. You may think otherwise, and that’s a different argument.
Apples and oranges. Only a brain-dead idiot would contend that things for American women are as bad as they are for Saudi women.
That’s Goldstein’s straw-woman, not an argument anyone is advancing.
What we’re saying is that, criticizing injustice abroad, without a commitment to righting such wrongs in the USA, serves as a means of excusing injustice at home.
It looks like you’re shooting the messenger. Since the complaint comes from a conservative, you automatically dismiss it out of hand, thinking there is some kind of nefarious ulterior motive.
Did it ever dawn on you that sometimes, when conservatives make such statements, that they actually mean it?
TV (Harry)
Our point is that we’ll take your side seriously on the issue when it isn’t led by rightwing freakazoids who demonize feminists, labor unions, and the other progressive movements which are responsible for 90% of the reasons why the USA is a better place than it was 50 and 100 years ago.
The rightwing, anti-feminism Phyllic Schlafly cavepeople ARE the Republican base. Goldstein would rather hang and vote with that crowd than folks who suggest he walk the walk as far as social values are concerned.
Lines
Or maybe thats just the Conservative in you trying to be an asshole and find something wrong with a liberal opinion. The attack of “why do you hate America?” is so obnoxious and so overused, its just a pathetic attempt to divert from the issue to be discussed.
I try not to point out that Conservatives tend to point to everyone else’s faults in an attempt to cheerlead America, as its so blatently obvious that I don’t think it has to be done. Why can’t Conservatives do the same?
A couple posters above actually attempted to do it: Since SA treats women so bad, America looks great! What is there to piss and moan about you moonbats?
Its a lame argument, and far from what the original blogger was attempting to do. Mr Goldie, in all his superiority (he’s a man, baby!), plays that game, and comes off looking like more and more of an asshole each time he rolls the dice.
Ancient Purple
And in the U.S., there are some people who think it should be the norm.
Thank you for making my point.
Kimmitt
Salem Witch Trials?
Lines
She turned me into a newt, burn her!
adam
I assume this is directed at me. Listen:
If you think there’s not a certain type of liberal that will gloss over or diminish anything that happens in the world in order to gleefully point out how fucked America is, you’re either fooling yourself, or you are that type of liberal. I’ve had too many arguments with people over the last couple of years in which, I pointed out that maybe, just maybe, Saddam and the Baathists being out of power is a good thing, regardless of how screwed up everything else about the invasion/occupation is. Some people won’t even concede that. It gets boring and predictable really quickly, especially in the context of women’s rights in America vs. SA, where there’s no real comparison, whatsoever.
Ancient Purple
Build a bridge out of ‘er!
ppGaz
Please don’t damn my state with faint praise!
The Arizona Legislature is the best evidence I have ever seen for the argument that the American Experiment may yet fail.
Slartibartfast
Because a little over three centuries ago, we killed about sixteen women (never mind the eight men) for witchcraft, we can’t legitimately criticize SA for their policies relating to beating and killing of women.
OK, then. Just trying to calibrate.
Lines
Slarti:
huh? Where did that come from? No one has yet to say you can’t criticize SA for their policies against women. The original blogger used SA’s policies as a stepping stone towards a criticism of American policies and trends.
Maybe a lot of you like to ignore the fact that it was liberal bloggers that pointed out that the Sharia law the Iraqi Constitution embraces is one where women can be raped, killed, beaten, subdued, etc without any reprisals. You know, the same law that Iran uses, Saudi Arabia, and other Conservative Middle East countries.
Steve S
Well this article is pretty cliche and stereotypical. I could have written it using the right-wing blog poster program. That is, put in a subject, and it’ll go looking for a quote somewhere about some guy “blaming America”, and then the rest of it is just cookie cutter fillin the blank blame all liberals for “blaming America”. At some point though you have to look at this and go “Oh good grief. How idiotic do you have to be to actually read this shit and think it’s worth pointing out to other people?”
There is an interesting undercurrent argument here being missed, which I think liberals should pay more attention to. That is. we know it’s true that there is a private sub-current of mysoginistic attitudes in America. But it’s private, and hidden from public view. Nobody wants to pay attention to it.
However, you start pointing out the flaws in Saudi Arabia, and it wakes people up to the subject and they will say “Wait… That’s what uncle Jack does! That’s not right!”
Liberals aren’t interested in blaming America so that right-wing idiots feel bad, they do it in the hopes that we improve ourselves as a Nation. Christ, I get into these arguments daily with my girlfriend. She pesters me, not to irritate me(even though it does), but in hopes that I’ll be a better person.
Steve S
I don’t think that’s a fair statement. They don’t want to ignore the liberal bloggers.
They want to ignore that Sharia law treats individuals like shit, because it’s inconvinient to their arguments of promoting freedom and democracy at the point of a gun.
Ancient Purple
Now, now, ppGaz. You know full well that our Legislature has been doing a wonderful job of bringing Arizona into the 18th Century.
Inspector Callahan
And in the U.S., there are some people who think it should be the norm. Thank you for making my point.
For your benefit, Purple, I’ll repeat myself, since you flat out ignored it. I already said that things aren’t perfect here. So that’s a wasted effort by you.
There are people who think this should be the norm in EVERY country on the planet. The question is – IS it the norm here? No – it isn’t. It IS the norm in middle eastern countries.
It is not the norm here, so there’s no comparison. Period.
TV (Harry)
srv
No doubt. Your triumphilism is predictable and quick (and we told you so). But we can assume you were trying to make some other great point with all ‘those’ kinds of liberals, and they’re just wrong about everything because they won’t parrot you on that.
Slartibartfast
And of course it went without saying (literally) that one of these things is not like the other.
Huh? Where’d that come from? I’ve got absolutely nothing against liberal bloggers.
Silk
Wow. A lot of you people are pretty dumb. It really isn’t worth even attempting to discuss anything of substance with you. Enjoy your circle.
Lines
Slarti:
I’m not sure I understand how you link these two things and come to that conclusion?
Oh, and the second part of my rant wasn’t about you, sorry :)
Silk:
I’m so sorry your experience here was not better for you. Would it make you happy if we stopped thinking about women as equals and started telling them to get in the f’ing kitchen and fix us some dinner? If your inability to debate your point of view is so weak that you find these threads so intimidating, maybe you should just go hang out on the yahoo boards where you can say “Michael Moore is Fat” and “Bush rocks0rs youz a11!” to your heart’s little desire.
Slartibartfast
That was just a tweak in response to Kimmitt’s The US was not always so different from Saudi Arabia. I’m sure that Michael can go into our less remote past and find even more instances of how much we are just like the Saudis. Why, he may even find that in Arizona, if you rape your wife, you only do a year and a half on top of the assault charges, which is just exactly like SA.
Ah, ok. My apologies for the waste of time, pixels, etc.
jg
You had me up to ‘regardless’. Saddam being gone is a good thing, but it wasn’t nescessary and certainly wasn’t worth the cost.
To me your comment sounds just like, ‘fuck the human or monetary costs, Saddam has to go’. I’m sure thats not what you meant of course.
ppGaz
I’m surprised we don’t still have slavery here.
(Unless you consider the plight of households with four cats, in which case, we do. These cats are stern masters!)
adam
Nope, not what I meant. Typical intentional misreading. I don’t think we should’ve invaded and I think the whole thing’s pretty much been a debacle. But is Saddam being gone, in itself, a good thing? Yes, but try saying that on dKos.
Oh, and SRV? Piss off. I’m triumphalist about absolutely nothing America’s done in the last several years.
Dan Kauffman
When was the last time school girls were beaten back into a burning building because their head were uncovered?
In America?
In Saudia Arabia?
If you were a woman in which country would you prefer to live?
ppGaz
That requires a stretch of the mind, though. It’s a little like saying “Well, we burned the house down, and lost everything, but we sure got rid of the termite problem.”
Isn’t it? Since this subtlety of this is lost on Bushmonkeys, what ends up happening is that they fall into boilerplate EJM argument (Ends Justify Means) in which no accountability need ever be required for anything, as long as some “good” can be argued to have come of it.
EJM is the road to hell. It cannot be the basis for the implementation of a democratic process, because it is the death of all process.
adam
No it doesn’t. Taken on its own merits, is Saddam being out of power a good thing? You’d be surprised how many people on dKos, for example, are completely incapable of answering “yes” to that question, posed exactly that way. I was surprised how many of my liberal friends, when Saddam was captured, reacted with dismay. IMO, hatred of Bush has short-circuited a lot of otherwise reasonable people’s sense of perspective.
Geek, Esq.
Everyone to the right of Ramsey Clark agrees that it’s good that Saddam is out of power. That’s not what would get you in trouble over at a place like dKos.
What would draw fire is to suggest that removing Saddam was worth the consequences.
Think of it this way: All Steeler fans agree it would be a good thing, in and of itself, to have the Steelers win the Super Bowl. However, if the price for such a victory were the human sacrifice of the firstborn child of every household in Pittsburgh, I suspect that most would believe that the Super Bowl victory wasn’t worth the cost.
NH
“But of course, to a weak mind, doing two things at once is impossible.”
That’s why conservatives argued that we couldn’t take on Iraq until we’d finished Afghanistan! Except that they didn’t, because it turns out you CAN do 2 things at once, provided they’re things conservatives think need doing in the first place.
Do something about domestic violence in this country? Eh, can’t be bothered. It’s more important to focus on what’s wrong with Islamic countries. Once we’re through with that business then maybe, MAYBE, we’ll see about appeasing the little women at home.
But probably not.
adam
Well, that’s interesting to learn, since I have gotten into arguments with people on dKos who seem absolutely loathe to admit there was anything good about Saddam’s removal. People who, even if you preface such blasphemy with a disclaimer to the effect that removing Saddam wasn’t worth the carnage and money spent, still call you a fascist. Like I said, I knew people who genuinely seemed bummed out about Saddam being captured, and I bet if you’re honest, you did too.
Notice I’m not saying these folks represent the entire Left, or anything like that. I’m a democrat who’s never voted republican or even independent. But I think this shrill minority we’re talking about does not do the Democratic party any favors in terms of PR.
jg
Where do you get intentional misread? You agreed that you didn’t mean what I clearly said I don’t think you meant. Wheres the misread? Then show me where it was intentional.
This is a new argument. The first one included other factors although they were disreagarded, now you want to examine Saddams removal in a vaccuum. Removing all factors that would make it seem a bad decision, I must agree with your spot on assessment that it was a good decision.
ppGaz
That’s an argument of language, not world affairs. The fact is, you can’t tweeze the absence of Saddam out of the spaghetti of events that got us here from there. Maybe historians twenty or fifty years from now will do so, and be right to do so.
Today, we are still embroiled in the war that ousted Hussein. We are stuck with the effects on the region, and we don’t know yet what those will turn out to be.
You can say your thing over and over all you want, the fact is, the thing does not now, today, rest on “its own merits.” Not for us, not for the people of Iraq, not for Arabs in general, not for the world, and definitely not for the government of George W. Bush, and especially for the thin bond of trust that needs to exist between the citizens of a democracy and the government. Not in Iraq, but here. That bond has been broken and it is not going to be easy to put it back together. Right now public “approval” of the handling of Iraq is hovering in the low 30-percent range. I think it will go lower, and that’s bad news for everybody.
DJ Any Reason
Yes, but, Adam, isn’t that kind of a rediculous argument to make? Its like asking, regardless of all the devastation and lives lost in Katrina, isn’t it a good thing that we now know how poor our disaster preparedness is? The cost of the issue is the 600 lb gorilla – trying to ignore it to make a point seems rather bass-ackwards.
And, also, unless you’re saying “regardless of the government to take his place, isn’t it a good thing to get Saddam out of power” a legitimate case could be made for someone disagreeing with you. If Iraq turns into a fundamentalist Islamic theocracy, its not obvious to me that its a good thing Saddam is out of power – either for Iraqi human rights, or for US foreign policy.
adam
I took the your last sentence to be sarcastic – “I’m sure that’s not what you meant, of course.” – Sorry, sounded sarcastic. If it wasn’t, I apologize.
I’m not making a new argument. What I meant originally with “regardless” was – “these other factors notwithstanding.” You can mock the obviousness of the moral assessment in question (is that what you’re doing? Maybe you’re being sincere again), but once again, there are plenty of people who will only admit to it being a good thing under extreme duress, and not without adding that BushChimpyHitlerburton is just as bad. Spend 5 minutes at dKos and tell me I’m wrong. People have become deranged.
jg
You are a victim of my writing talent (or lack of). I’m much better at sarcasm in person, trust me.
I don’t blame them. Look what you’re asking. Its only when removing all the facts that you can arrive at a ‘good’ outcome. I spent the entire 90’s saying I can’t wait for a republican president so we can finally get rid of Saddam yet I wouldn’t want to answer the question because you can only get half my opinion at best. The issue can’t be looked at ‘in itself’.
Tim F
When I scoffed at Jeff Goldstein upthread I had this sentiment in mind. Marge Simpson could paraphrase Jeff, “I’ll never move from Springfield to Shelbyville. Crazy people live there.”
I’ve met the fringe right. “The left” doesn’t own crazy, or smelly.
jg
Ok I’m not sure how you’d read that, I’m not even sure what it means. I was not being sarcastic. I did not think you meant it the way I rephrased it. My point is that to a Kassack that might be what they’re hearing. I don’t know tho, I never go to that site. I gotta get some work done right?
adam
All right, well for the record, I agree with most of you about the particulars of the Iraq debacle. I didn’t really want to get into an argument about the war, and was using the Saddam thing as a kind of thought exercise to illustrate a point about a certain type of liberal that, as they say in England, gets on my tits.
And I’m only talking about liberals because everything bad to be said about the right seems completely obvious.
jobiuspublius
This is what Goldstein is basing his tangential rant and blame game on:
As usual, Goldstein misses the point and distorts the view of the person he critisizes so he can go off on some stupid rant and blame game. Just like Saint Bennett the Absurd and Bubbles Coulter do to Freakonomics, for instance. When you consider all the much greater problems and culprits we have to deal with, I have to wonder why Goldstein insists on being so wrong and clinging to silly tangents. He might be more useful if he could persuade his 3 audiance members to just suck it up and join in the solving of bigger problems.
Sojourner
A question for you folks:
Should the US be satisfied with an Iraqi constitution that gives more rights to men than to women if the fighting in Iraq were to end?
DJ Any Reason
I think you’re missing a large part of Goldstein’s point, Job. Yeah, insofar as he attacks this post as “blame America first” and defends Karol’s response vis-a-vis the same slogan, he’s wrong. But the main thing which set him off was the bleating response to Karol’s response. He’s right to attack Clarke’s reply to Karol, which, IMO, seems to be the main thing he objects to.
srv
OK, so I assumed too much and deserved that.
Amanda Marcotte
John, just because my dick is bigger than yours doesn’t mean you’re funnier than me. Other all-around losers tend to avoid pissing off smart women and getting emasculated, but I suppose it’s sport for you.
John Cole
Yes, Mistress. I feel so emasculated. Tedious waste of time, you are, Marcotte. BTW- you ever get around to reading that study? At any rate, what you lack in brains, you make up for in self-esteem, so I guess public education is doing what they set out to do- produce marginal idiots who think they know everything.
I can’t believe it took almost 80 comments for someone to point that out…
Slartibartfast
I’m sorry, who was claiming such a thing? I mean, do strawmen actually build themselves?
jg
Armanda and John, you sound like Fraser and Diane arguing on Cheers. Get a room already, can’t you see you love each other?
Johnny
Answer: Who is Amanda Marcotte and who cares what she thinks?
Funny thing. I stumbled on Amanda the same way I stumbled on you Mr. Cole…Reason’s Hit & Run Blog. I notice a certain Mr. Walker has linked to her a couple of times. He must be one o’them godless libruls.
jg
Well said. They certainly have produced a lot of those. I would add that the republican media machine has done a great job exploiting it too.
Zifnab
The beautiful thing about the media (liberal, conservative, cheap talk radio or multi-million dollar cable news) is that everyone with a mic is throughly convinced they’re right.
Screw higher education. To hell with scientific research to the contrary. Damn Darwin. Fuck Freud. What do you know if you’re not live on air between 6 and 9pm M-F with a viewer base of less than half a million people.
But that was horrendously off topic. Please continue.
John Cole
?
A frightening prospect. I am perfectly content to ignore her, and have, for months. Then, out of the blue, I get linked and called a whiny conservative for, well, nothing.
So I fling feces back at the fool.
jobiuspublius
ROFLAMO How did I miss that salami? Nice one DJ. ;)
Yeah those bleating responses, even when they are spot on, are worse than wife beating. And that’s saying alot because right now my hands are a little puffy.
jobiuspublius
Um, she was referring to the thread which you started off with:
She didn’t single anybody out. And she couldn’t single you out because you didn’t stake a position. Only the commentariat staked out a position. So, if you want that title, get off your ass. We know you can do it.
Kimmitt
In the country where liberals have more power, of course.
Amanda Marcotte
Aw, John, I swear I didn’t tell anyone about our passionate night of love and the tweezers and magnifying glass. My overly high sense of self-worth, which I as a subhuman cunt-owner shouldn’t have, led me to be unable to admit that I’d debased myself that way.
Geek, Esq.
My only honest response is that you should go fuck yourself. Ann Coulter does neo-fascist McCarthyism in a much more entertaining fashion.
ppGaz
Your stuff is smart and funny. I still think a lot of feminism is nonsense though. But I tend to think that a lot of most things is nonsense, so you can’t go by me.
jobiuspublius
Silence woman! That is not your property! You are mearly to tend to it’s maintenance.
John Cole
Classy, as always. BTW- Those weren’t tweezers. It was a chainsaw I was using to chip away at your back hair.
Amanda Marcotte
LOL–you guys know this esteem-having bitch eats up the flattery. John, I think the only reason you trot out these unfunny and ancient creaker jokes about how women who don’t worship your cock must have cocks of our own is so that you can get a commenter or two to pretend that my loathing for you and your unfunny ilk has some relation to sexual desire. Fantasize away about having access to my enormous cock, John, but not in your lifetime. This feminazi only goes for the guys who actually make her laugh.
Amanda Marcotte
Aw, now you’re jealous of my back hair? Do you have like no testosterone at all?
Geek, Esq.
Worst. argument. ever.
jg
You have it wrong. Women don’t ‘tend to’ things, they do your bidding.
Otto Man
Jesus, the Steelers are leading. Why so pissy?
She dared to call you “whiny.” And you respond by saying she has a penis?
Not only is that a crass move, it also does nothing to disprove the whiny label. You’re better than that, John.
DougJ
This whole thing is very silly.
Joey
Best. Line. Ever. And, remind me again, why the hell are you two fighting again? Ah, who cares. It’s kinda amusing.
John Cole
Not sure. Apparently Amanda took deep offense to me linking to someone.
So I stooped to her level and said something I knew would get her knickers in a bind. Kinda funny.
jobiuspublius
Ya know, they say that a clitorous is like a very very tiny tiny salami, or whatever it’s called. So, maybe Cole was saying something like that. I’m still working on the back hair thing. Exactly where does it emanate from?
Joey
Haha, oh well. A good ol’ fashioned flame war never hurt anybody.
Amanda Marcotte
Nah, I didn’t take deep offense. I used you as a tool to demonstrate how pathetic it is that some men, especially those with no brains or talent or looks or sex appeal to lean on, have to support male dominance for their self-esteem, even though that makes them moral degenerates because they excuse a culture that leads to men beating the living shit out of women at the drop of a hat. And then, because you can’t even have the courage of your convictions and go beat a woman yourself, you actually had the nerve to whine that my cock is bigger than yours. Blame your daddy, Cole, it’s not my fault.
John Cole
And there you have the dumbest persyn on the intertrons at her best- a jumbled mess of incoherent feminist cliche.
Joey
Okay, I came from a household that had domestic abuse. You attacked John without reason, from what I’ve read (He did just link to the damn site, he didn’t even comment on it), so I take offense to you using domestic abuse as an excuse to attack him for something so trivial. And then you started in on more meritless “male dominance” bullshit. No, scratch that, I don’t just take offense to it, it fucking pisses me off that you would trivialize something like domestic abuse by using it to attack somebody in a damn flame war. Nowhere did John say that he excused domestic abuse.
Amanda Marcotte
Because you can’t read, John, doesn’t make me incoherent.
Joey, you want to play “victim wars”. I’ve been beat by two boyfriends and have zero tolerance for apologists like Johnny-boy.
Ryan
“The Dumbest Persyn on the Intertrons”
I think you have a crush, John. But here’s a tip: Pet names should be as endearing as possible.
Joey
Once again, HOW WAS HE BEING AN APOLOGIST? I’m sorry for your past abuses, I really am. I saw my mother beaten, I saw my father arrested in front of me. I have a deep seeded hatred for most males that I’ll never get rid of in all likely hood, so I can certainly relate. But he said nothing about the article, just to read it, to provoke discussion. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.
DougJ
This has really taken an ugly turn.
Joey
Indeed it has. I can’t believe I’m going so far to defend a Republican…
Amanda Marcotte
Apologist because he linked approvingly to a post that demanded that women like me who’ve had to suffer abuse at the hands of loved ones be fucking grateful we don’t live in Saudi Arabia. Sounds like a threat to me, “Don’t like the crap you have to tolerate in America? Well, you could live in a place where men get to kill you and get away with it, so shut the fuck up and be grateful you get off with just a beating.”
Ryan
Joey’s got you there, Amanda. Linking to the PW post as a “Reading Assignment” and filing the post above under “Excellent Links” is in no way an endorsement of the content therein.
Kind of like a professor having a class read Mein Kampf and discussing it with glee, while reminding everyone how horrible it all is.
ppGaz
Uh, does anyone want to play Scabble?
Joey
You are reading an awful lot into a simple link. But I’m done with this, I’ve put entirely too much effort into something so stupid. Good night everybody.
Amanda Marcotte
Oh, did I just fart in here and remind everyone that we do live in a society where women are beat and raped?
John Cole
Joey- You are asking for a rational response from an irrational person.
Pretty soon she will be making claims that you beat women or favor beating women.
ppGaz
Er, Scrabble?
Ryan
Oh no I didn’t!
ppGaz
How about those Angels?
Amanda Marcotte
So, basically it’s “irrational” to think that “Excellent Links” means that you think a link is excellent?
Of course you’re against beating women–we have a record of you against men you don’t like beating women, but no indication that you’re overly concerned about men you like who beat women.
Joey
Okay, sorry, came back to turn off the speakers and refreshed the screen. Excellent Links doesn’t mean that he agrees with them. Go read the archives. Excellent Links just implies a thought provoking article, which this one, apparantley, was.
DougJ
John, if your goal was drive me away from this blog forever with this truly disturbing thread, then…*Mission Accomplished* as your favorite president would say.
anon
doogy j wails:
Don’t let the door hit your ass on the way out.
And take that “cam con” jerkoff with you as well.
ppGaz
Idiot. Doug ain’t goin’ anywhere. You could show your displeasure by killing yourself, though.
TIA.
Otto Man
Not so sure that’s a defense. “Excellent Links” usually include laudatory comments like these:
In any case, John doesn’t seem to be distancing himself from the post at all.
He does, however, seem to be distancing himself from his regular readers.
Slartibartfast
Being one of his regular readers from way back, no, not particularly. His NEW regular readers might be offended, but they pretty much came here that way.
anon
ppbbqwtf wails:
Yeah, he’s just like you. He spends 16 hours a day here. Quite an existence.
You never did respond to the Midshipman’s question last night. Are you his old high school science teacher?
ppGaz
Nobody could be stupid as you are. I am around online computers and stop by when the mood strikes me. I don’t “spend” any hours here. My entire reading/writing activity today hasn’t taken 45 minutes of total time. Of course, I don’t have to sound out the words like you do.
Didn’t see it, and don’t care.
John Cole
For goodness sakes- the post was an interesting read, I linked it. Thought it would cause a discussion. it did.
Never in any way anticipated that any idiot (not even Amanda) would come out of this post thinking I endorse beating women.
Would you guys please come up with some rules for when I am allowed to post what under what category, since the content of my posts appears to matter less than the category they fall under?
Good grief.
John Cole
And stuff like this is just idiotic.
It would be nice if some of you, even those of you who disagree with me from time to time or even most of the time, would recognize heaping piles of dung like this and call it for what it is.
ppGaz
I tried to follow the thread and have no idea what you and Amanda were “arguing” about.
For the record, I am pretty much against anyone beating anyone.
anon
GazMan sez:
Well, not quite as stupid as you. You claim “you are around
online computers”. Yeah, probably the one computer you spend the entire day in front of.
Before you start telling people to kill themselves, you may want to review your own situation.
TIA.
Pb
You? A whiny conservative?
Hmm, I guess she has a point after all.
A: she’s Wonkette, and I would posit that (much like your blog) her regular readers care. Also, judging from your post, it sounds like you have some aggression towards women that can’t be blamed on Saudi Arabia–further exposing the B.S. that was your ‘Recommended Reading’.
ppGaz
Hmm. There are five within twenty feet of me, and three of them are online 24 x 7 365 days a year. If I were at another favorite location, there would be about 150 of them within a 50 foot radius of me, and I have access to about 2/3 of them. What exactly is your point, you crazy sumbitch?
I told you to kill yourself? I simply offered it to you as an alternative. Judging by your posts tonight, it might be the best suggestion you are going to get.
anon
John Cole said:
I agree with about 90% of what you post, and disagree with about 95% of the posters that have inhabited these comment areas recently.
Your comments regarding and in response to that idiot Marcotte were totally justified.
Hey, Steelers won.
ppGaz
But, we’ve established that you’re a complete idiot.
Kimmitt
Mr. blog owner guy, Amanda’s right about this one and you’re wrong. I hate to be a punkass, but putting aside all of the rhetoric which has made it socially impossible for either of you to back down, but there are two sides on this one, and Amanda’s on the right one.
jg
Now you know how it feels when to get labeled as a troop hater.
anon
ppGaz
I think I hit a nerve that isn’t dead yet. Love the feedback!
ppGaz
Okay, getting no help here. As near as I can figure out, you are not in favor of anyone beating anyone, but somehow the way you framed this thread has outraged Amanda.
Much ado about nothing. A personality clash.
Drinks are on me. Everybody lift a glass and have a good time.
ppGaz
You couldn’t hit a nerve if your life depended on it, Sparky. You’re an idiot.
anon
Hey GazMan,
For a old fart who is on a medical leave, why do you five computers in your living room?
Maybe I answered my own question.
ppGaz
?
Because I’m rich as Cresus and I can afford it, son.
anon
GazMan sez:
Heh. You’d be better be off buying one that works, than buying 5 Dell shitboxes that don’t. Toshiba makes a good laptop.
G’Nite
ppGaz
Sweet dreams.
Ancient Purple
I have no way of knowing if you endorse the beating of women or not, John.
However, it does seem a bit of a stretch to think that there is something interesting in an article that wants to boil down the American motto to “Well, as least we don’t treat our women as bad as they do in Saudi Arabia.”
MisterPundit
Because I’m rich as Cresus and I can afford it, son.
Holy shit, John Cole must be paying people to surf his web site now. Either that, or you’re John Cole’s love-struck pet monkey he forces you to surf for food. NOBODY spends this much time on a web site unless they’re getting paid, or getting porn.
MisterPundit
I have no way of knowing if you endorse the beating of women or not, John.
We also have no way to know if you’re planning on killing your parents tonight. Think about it.
anon
MisterPundit sez:
These comment areas are the Thunderdome for these lefty pinheads. I gather a lot of them are Duncan Black’s unsolicited gifts to Mr Cole.
Thinking has little to do with their unintentionally humorous “commentary”
MisterPundit
These comment areas are the Thunderdome for these lefty pinheads. I gather a lot of them are Duncan Black’s unsolicited gifts to Mr Cole.
I’m just throwing some peanuts at Cole’s pet librul monkeys coz’ there’s nothing on TV. When SMC and Video Professor infomercials make leftwingers look interesting, you know that late-night TV has hit rock bottom.
Pb
MisterPundit,
You mean you’re missing Beverly Hills Ninja?! :)
adam
A: Wonkette is Ana Marie Cox. This Marcotte person sounds like a complete psychopath with a very inflated idea of her own outrageousness. (She said “cunt” and “fart.”)
I had no idea before personally. How enlightening. Does it count that men also get beaten up in our society and, btw, are raped (counting prison stats) more often than women?
Tom DiMato
Amanda the shitbat skank speaks! However, she didn’t tell you that her ‘Latino’ boyfriend tossed her sorry ugly ass out of ‘Mouse Manor’ because even he couldn’t stand her skanky ass and man-hating crap anymore. Now poor Amandaskank will have to whine at her pretend ‘job’ at UT all day and post to Shitagon, I mean Pandagon.
Stupid Amanda can’t even keep a racial token, and she’s going to lecture others? What a maroon!
Rome Again
She’s someone whose gotten MUCH more recognition on CNN than you have… and I suspect that’s why you’are attacking her.
bwahahahahahahahahaha!
RW
John (and only John, thankfully Ezra moved to his own domain & I don’t have to scroll past the teenage musings any more & can instead just pretend they don’t exist. My condolences for your having to wade into the cesspool. I’m sure it’s tough enough what with your having to continually deal with your pool of unemployed commenters who stay here all day.
[yeah, I felt like starting something] :)
Inspector Callahan
Would you guys please come up with some rules for when I am allowed to post what under what category, since the content of my posts appears to matter less than the category they fall under?
No offense, John, but this is why the inmates should NEVER run the asylum.
I think it’s time for you to send in the guards and crack some skulls. Just the men, though; we wouldn’t want anyone to think you’re for beating women. I mean, you’re not running an Abu Ghraib here, you know…
:)
TV (Harry)
Inspector Callahan
Does it count that men also get beaten up in our society and, btw, are raped (counting prison stats) more often than women?
No, it doesn’t. Until all men are turned into whimpering house eunuchs, ladies like Amanda will never be satisfied.
I wonder if she kisses her mother with that mouth?
TV (Harry)
Slartibartfast
Amanda and John are so all over the map here that it’s not really clear where you think Amanda is in the right, Kimmitt. I’d ask for clarification, but I’m not really sure that I care all that much. Could be the crime stats thing, but I don’t see John arguing counter to that.
Rome Again
Speak for yourself, some of us have jobs, thank you. I happen to be off today, and even if I weren’t, my shift would have finished an hour and a half from now (11:30 EDT – I go in between 2 and 4 am).
Perhaps not everyone is tied to the Monday-Friday 8-5 daily grind? You are being stereotypical, I think.
John Cole
I am not sure what I have to be right or wrong about, since all I did was point people to an interesting piece at Jeff’s, and then flung insults at the village idiot.
jobiuspublius
OK, kids, reading is fundamental, but, it only works if you have reading comprehension.
Gee, Mr. Cole, congratulation for having achieved the status of plurality. BTW, what meds are you on? Seems like this is another case of “Dear Leader” syndrome. Do we all remember that incident?
ppGaz
Asked, and answered. Doesn’t anybody pay attention around here?
Rome Again
“Village Idiot” is such a relative term. Personally I think our president could qualify for that title, but others (such as our current Supreme Court Nominee) think he’s a veritable wellspring of intellectualism.
Village Idiotness is in the eye of the beholder.
Perhaps it is only because I’ve been through domestic violence in my past that I see where Amanda is coming from. I know that I was beaten far more than I returned the favor. I also know that I didn’t report it as I knew that would only cause MORE problems. In the end, the only way that I got out of it was to leave an abusive relationship and try to find a better life. As a child who was severely beaten by my father, it took several failed relationships to finally get to the point where I had broken the cycle of violence.
I am no feminist, I personally believe in equality of both sexes, meaning none should enjoy any standing above the other (feminism to me puts women on a higher pedestal than men simply because they have suffered, and to me that is complete and utter bullshit which does nothing to draw the sexes into a more synergistic relationship) but, on the other hand, I do see that we are a patriarchal society, which isn’t equal either.
Ask any anthropology professor, we are a patriarchy, and men being the stronger sex, they do get more opportunity to hold power over women, in the home, in the workplace, in society in general. That men have suffered I do not contend with, but I think women have suffered far more.
Does that make them more right? No, nor should it.
Sorry John, I don’t sympathize with your POV.
John Cole
Rome Again- Just curious.
What is my POV? Because I guess I just missed giving any comentary on Amanda’s babble, any commentary on Jeff’s piece, and I am real curious how it is that you, Kimmitt, and others have come to the conclusion I am ‘wrong.’
And Jobius- What is your point (in ten words or less, please)?
Joey
huh, I kinda figured this would be dead by the time I got up, went to class, and got back. I guess I was wrong. And Jobius, the word “conservatives” was linked to John’s site. I think everybody will agree on that, right?
Ancient Purple
I shall note for future reference that understanding nuance is not your forte.
Rome Again
Perhaps you have given away your POV by your attack on Amanda? Perhaps by your linking to Jeff at Protein Wisdom and not making any kind of statement on it? As a professor, you are giving us a reading exercise, yet not interjecting your reason for such, from which I can only conclude that you are in agreement with it.
Then you made snide comments about Amanda having male anatomy. You say you didn’t offer any kind of opinion, yet your attack does just that.
Personally, I don’t think we’ve learned from our mistakes, violence still happens here; nor do I think we should compare one country’s social ills with another. While we are talking about cleaning up the social ills of another country, we should also be cleaning up our own.
I don’t believe in Jesus as a deity, but Jesus was right when he said to cast the plank our of your own eye before deciding to cast the moat out of our brother’s eye. It makes one appear a hypocrit if they don’t.
I don’t have a problem with casting both out at the same time as a possible solution (if we have not worked on our own problem here though, what right do we have to judge how others have not worked on theirs?).
How about instead of arguing over who has worse violence, who suffers more, we instead be that guy who picks up the trash in that commercial when a bunch of others stand around talking about the fact that someone dropped it there.
I do my part proactively to stop domestic violence. I talk to people about what I went through when I hear them signalling that they are involved in that type of relationship. I once wanted to be a social worker and work in Domestic Violence. Alas, my chance to get my LCSW didn’t work out, but still I talk to women who are in violent situations and tell them that breaking the cycle means standing up for themselves and having courage to expect better all the same. I know how hard it is to break that kind of relationship. I can do that much and I do try.
Slartibartfast
Which is pretty much the exact opposite of the situation in question, it’s got to be said.
John Cole
A.) I am not a professor on this blog, I am a blogger. My opinions here are not attached to my work, my work is not attached to my opinions. Enough with this professor nonsense, please.
B.) I was RESPONDING to crap from Amanda (who has a long history of both being a pinhead and launching silly broadsides at me and then playing victim), and responded in kind. This is some weird form of feminism going on these days- they say whatever they want, someone fires back, and the response is interpreted as an ‘attack on women.’ Nice gig if you can get the work, I guess.
C.) I am still kind of perturbed that Amanda seems to insinuate that I favor violence against women, and that none of you have noted how offensive a charge that is, as well as how it is wholly unsubstantiated.
D.) Jeff’s point was crystal clear and in no way advocated violence against women either here in the states or abroad.
Rome Again
I disagree. They are two different species of the same animal. One is overt (Saudi Arabia), while the other is covert (America). Actually, I would contend that it is not opposite at all. The situation in America is a mindfuck, since we’re under the impression that there is equality here when there really isn’t.
Maybe this is a sick way of putting it (and i don’t intend it to be sickening, just pointing out a different way of looking at it) that women in Saudi Arabia know more of what is expected of them in their current culture then we American women do. That is not to say I condone their culture, I don’t. But, we American women are told that we’re equal, and yet when we cross the line, many times we don’t know even what we have done (my first experience in marital beatings happened on my wedding day, because I walked two feet ahead of my husband on a narrow sidewalk). This happened in 1979 America, in the “land of the free”.
Steve S
Umm, well, the truth is…
John Cole is a whiny conservative. Take this post and contrast it with his Blame Blanco for Hurricane Katrina diatribes. It’s the same logic.
I prefer people who call a spade a spade… not just when it serves their partisan motivations.
Slartibartfast
I disagree. You’re talking perception; I’m talking reality. The reality of things is that women in SA have it much, much worse than women here. If you don’t think so, I encourage you to go over there and marry a local. Be sure and let us know how that turns out.
Overt/covert be damned. This is legal/illegal (as well as permissible/impermissible, but that’s nearly redundant). One might as well say that we are covertly a society of child-molesters, given that there is some incidence of that going on here.
John Cole
Thanks, Steve.
I don’t think I have ever blamed Blanco for Katrina, though.
I do, on the other hand, think that the state and local governments are getting off far to lightly for the foul-ups in the aftermath of Katrina, although I have no idea how that serves my partisan motivations.
Especially considering I am A.) not a resident of said localities, B.) Won’t vote in said localities, and C.) Am pretty damn sick and tired of the GOP in general, and certainly no fan of the southern ‘Christian’ wing of the GOP.
Slartibartfast
Rome Again:
American society is not your (I assume former) husband, any more than you are Hattie Dorsett. I have some appreciation for what you’ve been through (to the degree possible, in this discussion), but don’t smear us all with that overly broad brush.
Rome Again
Regarding your A: Well then maybe you should stop giving us “assignments” then if you are not a professor on this blog.
Your “B” I’m not even going to substantiate with a response, as you seem to have much more knowledge of what is going on (I haven’t been following your war, sorry). I will say though that there are feminists who try to trap men in to victimizing them, and there are men also who think all women are pinheads. Which is which here, I cannot say. Maybe a little of both.
Your C: I didn’t think that, nor did I see anyone else coming to that conclusion. I do see John always feeling rather hurt though when attacked (yet John hardly ever seems to think of how his attacks hurt others). John, I’ve seen you respond to this type of thing before, and you always seem to “whine” about how unfair people are being to you. Grow up John, life is full of these situations, grow a backbone please. I’m sorry for putting it so bluntly, but I’m not the first here to talk about how you always seem so reactive to these things.
I never said Jeff’s point of view advocated violence, but Jeff seems to think that we’ve solved our problem here [ie: “We in the US know our failings. We know our past.”], yet we haven’t. Ask any policeman what type of call he fears most, he’ll tell you it is Domestic Violence, because of the height of emotion and unpredictability, it makes for nasty brew when trying solve the situation.
Slartibartfast
I’m not sure what sort of logic leades to the equation of knowing one’s failings with we’ve solved our problem. You’re arguing counter to a point that Jeff hasn’t made.
Kimmitt
Slarti —
It’s my opinion that Amanda’s right about the subtext of the article that John linked to, that it’s an attempt to shut down discussion on the issues women in the US face by bringing up the specter of the endless horrors faced by women in our ally, Saudi Arabia. “You never had it so good.”
In addition, John (whether he meant to or not) implied endorsement of the views in how he posted the link. If that was an implication which was not valid, well, that’s blogging. Sometimes you end up saying something you didn’t really mean and have to clarify.
Slartibartfast
In quotes, despite the fact that no one said it, or even said anything remotely related to it. If you think that Jeff is attempting to shut down discussion of anything, bringing that up with him would seem to be the thing to do. If anything, Jeff’s bit was about how others were attempting to shut down discussion.
Rome Again
Thank you Kimmitt, you said it far better (and with far fewer words) than I ever could have.
Slartibartfast
Not to get all meta, and I think we’ve just about beaten this to death, but if criticism is right and good, why isn’t criticism of the inappropriately critical right and good?
If anything, this stimulated more discussion than saying nothing would have. A curious shutting-down technique, if you ask me.
Rome Again
I disagree. What is the reason for stating “we know our failings” if not to minimize the reason for looking at American culture in this discussion? We really don’t know our failings. Many domestic violence crimes still go unreported.
By the way, I’m not painting all American men as women-abusers, either. My current husband has never done a single abusive thing to me (either physically, nor non-physically). I will admit though (and have above) that I’ve gone through numerous relationships where this was not the case. I think that America is not aware of how prevalent the problem is, and I don’t think we’ve recognized the magnitude of our failings in this area. That’s just my opinion though.
As for illegality, I’m not up on Saudi law, but it seems to me that women’s rights aren’t very big over there. It seems to me that it’s more about morality vs. immorality to me. I’m not under the impression that men in Saudi are committing huge crimes, but maybe I’m wrong (and I’m admitting that I haven’t studied the laws in Saudi Arabia).
Here, women are under the impression that they have all kinds of rights. Here it is illegal to assault someone (male or female), but that doesn’t mean than the law doesn’t still find ways to allow some people to get away with it (ask me about custody issues sometime, I got a story that would curl one’s hair).
adam
Indeed. They know they’ll be beaten within an inch of their lives if they contravene Sharia law. They know they’d better keep their ankles covered. They know their husbands can legally rape them.
No one is saying that these kinds of things don’t happen in America, but if they do, they happen illegally. I don’t see where the confusion on this point is coming from.
Kimmitt
Not all criticism is right and good, of course, just like not all ice cream is right and good. Doesn’t mean that ice cream isn’t a good thing in general.
Anyways, you have my impression upon reading the article. You don’t see it, and I honestly don’t care enough to get into it. Mostly I wanted to post that I, as a guy, saw what Marcotte saw.
Rome Again
You’re going by reaction rather than intent. The reaction is what we’re discussing. The intent (“we know our failings”) was brought out to minimize the American culture question.
Slartibartfast
Maybe it’s to note that we do know our failings. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
Probably true, but I don’t think it’s true that anyone worthy of regard thinks it just doesn’t happen anymore, or even that it’s extremely rare. Me, I think guys that beat on women need to have something to that effect branded on their forehead. Without the benefit of anesthetic.
The law is an ass; I certainly agree with Dickens on this one. There are times and situations where men are favored by the law, and there are others where the law favors women. Are women, in general, disadvantaged by the law? I have no idea; this discussion hasn’t gone there. Yet.
Slartibartfast
I’m afraid you’re going to have to discuss any question of intent with Jeff Goldstein. Or, if telepathy works for you, go with that.
Slartibartfast
Fair enough, Kimmitt.
Rome Again
Okay, I guess I have to go into this.
Years ago I was married to a man who beat the hell out of me (our relationship started out being completely without abuse, I had just left my first abusive relationship). I had a child by my first husband and through my mother’s advice, I sought custody. I was granted custody. Then my second husband started beating me. I was heartbroken to find that I had just gotten out of one failed marriage only to find that I was in another one. While I was trying to figure out my plan of escape (he refused to allow me to earn any money after we married), he started abusing my child as well. When he went after my child, I went after him with a knife (I was trying to defend my child). I had my child removed from my care, and placed with her father. He ended up molesting her, then gave her away to complete strangers (the women would eventually one day put a gun to her head) and then killed himself. I brought out the abuse in the custody trial, the judge decided I was not telling the truth and gave her to him.
Judges very often don’t make good decisions, especially where the safety of women and children are concerned. Why? I’m not sure, I cannot know the motivation for the judge’s decision, but he placed my daughter into a situation where she was not safe at all. I had to endure the pain of not being able to be with my child, a child I loved and wanted to protect.
it happens, even though it is illegal; and sometimes (for any one reason or another) people in power let these things happen.
Now, am I saying it’s far better or far worse than what happenes in Saudi? No, to me its not an equivocation. They are different situations. And women (and children) are abused and die at the hands of men in both countries, whether illegal or not.
Rome Again
By the way, my ex-husband died before he received a day’s penalty for the molestation. He was awaiting trial when he committed suicide.
adam
Wow. Look, this is obviously a very sensitive subject for you and I’m sorry to hear about your experience. All I’m saying is, (and I say this having lived in Saudi Arabia for eight years), as fallible as the American legal system is, it is at least ostensibly illegal to beat or rape your wife here. In Saudi Arabia, under Sharia law, it is not illegal. More precisely, it is legal. In the eyes of Saudi Arabian law, women are basically property.
Am I saying bad shit doesn’t happen in America all the time? No, I am not. But SA and America are two different animals when it comes to women’s rights, and I will not be convinced otherwise.
Rome Again
I said the same, they are two different species of the same animal is what I said (maybe what I should have said is they are separate subspecies of the same species). While illegal, it is covert here; while legal is overt there. I’m not saying that American women have it harder than Saudi women, just that deaths occur in both places, despite the legality or illegality of it.
As a woman (and I am one), I would rather live in a society where I know the rules (even if I don’t agree with them) and can guage if I’m doing wrong, rather then to live in one where I am told that I’m free, and then find out otherwise.
Rome Again
I know an American woman who lived in Saudi for several years herself. She returned unscathed, she was there by choice.
Not all women living under Saudi rule end up as dogmeat, either.
Slartibartfast
God, that sucks, Rome. I have been around some [previously] battered women, but this…this is way outside of my experience.
Rome Again
No biggie Slarti. I’m in a good marriage now. I gravitated towards abusive men because that is what I knew growing up in my household where my father abused me. It’s been years since I’ve faced that situation, and it’s all behind me now. The only thing that remains unresolved is my relationship with my daughter, who is repeating the abuse cycle now.
adam
So, you’re basically saying you would rather live in a paternalist totalitarian state where you have virtually no rights than in an imperfect democracy where you do? Well, you’re certainly entitled to your opinion; your experiences probably entitle you to more of an opinion than most.
BTW, I would assume your friend was living in one of the Americanized oil compounds on the Arabian gulf, like Dhahran, where Western women are permitted to wear jeans and stuff like that.
ppGaz
Great line, I hope to steal it soon.
“John the Professor” issue:
I’ve done many years of classroom instruction (I’m an instructor, not a professor), gotta say this: When being the instructor week in and week out, a job which I find both exhilerating and rather all-consuming (it eats the brain, because it takes so much intense focus all day) … it’s DAMNED HARD to go back to being a “regular person” on weekends. One starts to imagine that one is explaining things on the whiteboard even when just having an ordinary conversation. People want to run away. I call it “instructoritis” and the main thing to remember is that the afflicted person has no idea that he is afflicted.
I’m just saying, for whatever it’s worth. Let’s take a ten minute break …..
ppGaz
Rome: My God. I don’t know what else to say.
My problems are as nothing compared to such a story.
Rome Again
I’m not looking for a ticket to Saudi, but I would rather live in a society where at least I’m not mindfucked into believing I have rights that don’t really exist. That’s what I’m saying. I agree that the covert legal option would put me in far more danger than the covert illegal option. At the same time, while I live in the covert illegal option, I’m mindfucked into believing I have certain rights that I really don’t have.
I only know that she lived in Saudi for a while, I didn’t stay in close contact with her. She is a person I knew many years ago, I heard she went over, I heard she returned, I am not sure what her living conditions were. Maybe it was a poor example, I don’t know much about the oil communities.
Ancient Purple
I am not so sure. adam, I understand your point, but the proof is in the pudding. Yes, we are better than Saudi Arabia. But that doesn’t really mitigate the issues that are still in America regarding how husbands treat their wives.
The law in Arizona that I mentioned at the beginning of this thread only took effect in August, a short two months ago. Before that, it was punished on par with those who are caught with a joint in their car. Then, when the bill came up for a vote in the House committee, you got four bozos that gave every BS reason in the book to say that rape within marriage really isn’t really that bad. What other message could be garnered than a wink and a nod that husbands can rape their wives with little more than a slap on the wrist?
This is the here and now, not 1962. The fact that anyone in this nation would think that raping your spouse is anything less than horrific should make you sick to your stomach.
ppGaz
It’s coming from a bad notion of mixing a serious subject — abuse, and Sharia, in general, and things that hang from those topics — with a non-serious one, namely, the animosity between John and Amanda, which has nothing to do with the other subject.
How the two got tangled, one must divine for him or her self by reading the thread and lookng into the backstory.
I have no comment, it isn’t my fight and I am not getting caught up in it.
Rome Again
Don’t feel bad, I’m okay. I made it through the situation. Now I’m happily married, and looking at possibly becoming a District Manager for the company I work for (I’m currently an Assistant District Manager).
All that happened years ago, and I’ve moved on. I’m just stating what happened to me in “home of the free” America.
RW
Wow, I can’t believe the arguing of the minutia in order to score points (as if there is a contest).
This is NOT a proper equation:
1 People are being killed in Darfur.
2 Democrats get killed in San Francisco.
3 People in Darfur are not that different than Democrats in SF.
Same goes with SA & America. Sorry (very sorry) Rome for your situation but anecdotal evidence is useless in any general discussion and frankly has little place.
The old Styx song “Too much time on my hands” is running through my mind. :)
adam
That’s all I was looking for.
I’m not saying it does. The modern power dynamic between American men and women is a completely seperate issue from the relative morality of the American and Arabian legal codes.
Rome Again
Democrats are targeted in SF? What? Can you at least create a relevant scenario?
Yes, let’s tell the Saudis how to be good husbands to their wives when many times we can’t even achieve that here at home. No matter, just push our American example under the rug, and make it look like we live in this non-marital abuse utopia, while we sell them a fantasy that doesn’t even exist here.
Righty-o. What are you smoking?
RW
Women are targeted in the USA?
Do tell. Let’s see the proclaimation.
Then let’s not tell our kids not to steal since theft still exists in the good old “home of the free”.
Let’s not even try to teach them not to bear false witness since people still lie here, as well.
And since baseball players still make errors, let’s not try to teach proper fielding.
You see, the old “as long as it exists in any form, then it is covertly condoned” argument is as valid as anecdotal evidence presented as general proof.
John Cole
Because, as we all now, the best way to shut down discussion is to publicly invite a debate about the issues in an open forum in which anyone can not only comment, but create their own website post about and link to.
Those joos are sneaky.
Jeff G
How sad that many of the commenters here have spent 200 comments trying to torch a straw man.
I like the majority of Jill’s post. I pointed out that — when another woman tried to suggest that drawing parallels between the situation for women under Sharia with the situation for women in the US (where the laws are precisely opposite) weakens the argument and dimishes the force of the post by unnecessarily qualifying it — she was met with a sheep noise, and that such a reaction is one of the reasons why political discourse is coarsening, a point I expanded on.
To suggest that I made that argument to shut down the conversation is ludicrous; I was JOINING the conversation by criticizing what I see as a ubiquitous knee-jerk rhetorical technique, and making the suggestion that that technique is a sticking point for many who read arguments across party lines.
Agree or disagree. Go ahead and explain to me how the formulation Jill used is not typical of a particular type of political argument offered from an identifiable ideological position. Tell me it’s not phatic.
But at least get the argument right.
Rome Again
Stealing and bearing false witness have never been condoned, these things were condemned in the Hammurabi Code, and are in each religion’s tenets. Get serious. You’re taking this to extremes. We have no right to tell another country how to behave if we’re having trouble managing it ourselves, and there IS a covert abusive situation in this country, whether you want to believe it or not. If we want to bring our situation out into the open and deal with it, then we could create an example for the Saudis to imitate. Until then, the best we could hope for is that the Saudis would create the same type of covert abuse we have here (which would be a vast improvement over what they have, but still, women would continue to be demoralized).
it would be like Russia telling us to get rid of our nuclear weapons in the 1960’s.
Baseball? Sorry, I don’t follow baseball, nor do I see that part of your post as even being a remotely related discussion.
Rome Again
Sorry Jeff, I stand corrected. At the same time, you are not female, and have not had to endure the covert gender issues of America as a female either. To many it appears we’re a bastion of equality, and we’re not really as equal as we appear. Maybe my situation is an isolated incident compared to the general population (although I’ve met others who have gone through similar), that doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen here.
RW
Stealing wasn’t condoned? Sheesh, the slaves would’ve had something to say about their being stolen from their homeland (let’s not ask the American Indians about their land, either).
So because Eric Rudolph bombed abortion clinics we shouldn’t be condemning suicide bombers Israel. Got it.
Anecdotal. There is a Democrat-on-farm-animal situation in this country, whether or not you believe it.
Oh, it’s illegal, but I saw it. The officials (the judge) decided that I wasn’t telling the truth but it still exists because beastiality exists and because I said so.
Wonderful foundation taht you’re arguing from, Rome. The possibilities are endless.
Treason, I say.
Kathleen
“That’s all I was looking for.”
then you should have read the original post by Jill for Christ’s sake. Jesus. Someone even reprinted it in this thread for your convenience.
nothing beats the crazy rants hopped up about something you didn’t even read.
Ancient Purple
And that’s it? That is all there is?
I don’t think there is a single person who has posted on this thread that thinks the US has an inferior legal code to Saudi Arabia. Now that you have your answer that America is better than Saudi Arabia, we are supposed to be content that because we are better than SA, we don’t need to work as hard to become even better?
Is America okay with you because we are “better than SA” and, if not, what are you doing to make sure that spousal rape is so abhorrent that people would rather leave town and disappear into the woodwork than actually say that spousal rape is not so bad?
Slartibartfast
Dunno where you’re getting this, Ancient Purple.
Ancient Purple
I get it from the lack of outrage from the right side of the aisle (save a few voices) regarding the treatment of women in American society. Why isn’t the conservative position “America is better than Saudi Arabia, but we need to stop treating women as second class citizens right now! No excuses”?
You say America is better than country X and suddenly the discussion ends.
Slartibartfast
Where’s the outrage from the left side of the aisle? Was this a major plank in the DNC platform, and I missed it?
Yes, just look at how it’s come to a complete halt.
Rome Again
Whatever RW, I hope that in your next lifetime you get to be female and experience the situation first-hand so you can say you have first hand knowledge of it.
End of discussion, I’m tired of your extreme examples.
jobiuspublius
Amanda did not single you out unless you consider yourself to be whiny individuals of a certain political persuasion. You have a habit of doing that.
But, I guess you enjoy generating traffic. Is blogads paying well?
jobiuspublius
Rome again can spend all day explaining to you and some of you idiots still refuse to see it. Some woman really need the encouragement. They need to see that the situation is not impossible. The fact that someone in much tougher terrain fought and won is something that some people need to see. The fact that we still have some work to do here is something that people need to see. But, don’t let me disturb anybodies comfort.
adam
I wasn’t commenting on the original post. I was commenting on the general tone of the comments following it, here and elsewhere, and the seeming inability of some people to ever admit that America, imperfect though it may be, may have a moral leg up on another society in some regard.
Nothing beats someone jumping in from out of nowhere and taking a shit on you for no reason. BTW, since this is America, you’re free not to, but if you want, feel free to go fuck yourself.
John Cole
Jobius- Amanda linked to this post, the sum total of which was “Your reading assignment is here,” and labelled me a whiny conservative, for whatever reason. In fact, I was the sum total of the ‘whiny conservatives.’
And since Amanda is a brainless shrill harpy who thinks all males to the right of Ralph Nader are misogynistic pigs who like beating women and think they should spend their time barefoot in the kitchen, I made a dick joke.
Why? Because that is how she thinks men (or at least me)think, she is such a caricature of feminism. And she is such an empty vessel, she didn’t even get WHY I made a dick joke, and instead took it as validation of her already screwed up misconceptions of what ‘evil men’ think.
I am sorry this whole thing has confused you so much.
Rome Again
Well John, I don’t believe you think that way (I’ve seen you get outraged over racist remarks and something tells me you would feel the same about gender issues). Furthermore, men are not exclusively aligned with evil. Personally I think Hillary Clinton is evil (and I’ve stated on numerous occasions that I can’t see me voting for her, although someone did recently bring up a possible reason, and I’ve considered it and still think I can’t vote for her). Evil is universally gendered, and so is good.
At the same time, I do agree with the content of her post.
Kimmitt
Dude, your mom.
RW
I was considering the same response since your entire foundation is based on your own (personal) extreme example. At least we can end on a good note. Have a blessed day.
Mac Buckets
John, by refusing to equate “backwards” treatment of women in the Middle East with the “not-quite-exactly-equal” treatment of women in the US, you are robbing some American women of their cherished victim status. How can US women of a certain mindset publicly rend their collective hems over their dramatic victimhood at the hands of evil, oppressive — oh, let’s just say it — conservative American men and be taken deadly seriously, if others keep pointing out examples where other women around the world have it much, much, much, much worse, and that American men are downright genteel by comparison? What’s the point of being a third-tier victim?
Note that this isn’t a reaction exclusive to women. Many groups of “victims” in this country hate it when you point out that others have it worse. The millionaire across the street spits feathers when I mention that, tax-wise, he has it good compared to the tax rate in the UK.
Rome Again
Yeah, well, it happened, whether you like it or not. I was not the only one who has this sort of thing happen to them, either, as I stated earlier. I do know of others who have been put into similar situations. Maybe it isn’t quite as extreme as you wish it were.
Using a “blessing” to wrap up an insult? How quaint.
Let’s leave religion out of this, shall we? I can assure you I don’t subscribe to any religion you are invoking in your “blessing”, as a matter of fact, I find the word “blessing” itself to be perverse. My belief in God doesn’t subscribe to any generally accepted applications of belief of this current world, I’d rather we not go there.
Rome Again
That may be so for “some women”, that isn’t so for me. To be quite honest, I don’t know if the men who affected my life would be considered Republican or Democratic or any political type at all. I never discussed politics with my exes, and I never did check to see if that judge (whose name eludes me 16 years later) was aligned with the Republican party.
Perhaps what you are describing is the revulsion some women feel towards a “good old boy network” which usually does appear to come dressed in conservative male clothing.
If we sweep the gender issues that are unresolved in this country under a rug, we never will reach a higher standard. I am no victim, I am merely pointing out a truth. Do with it whatever you wish, you cannot change that it happened.
Rome Again
Anyway, bedtime, good night all. Sweet dreams.
docob
“(my first experience in marital beatings happened on my wedding day, because I walked two feet ahead of my husband on a narrow sidewalk). This happened in 1979 America, in the “land of the free”.”
WTF? How does you marrying a psycho make America less free?
RW
I did not insult you. The example you put forth is in no way ordinary. Perhaps, as is apparently your penchant, you see abuse when it is not present? Try putting away the victim flag for 5 seconds and try reading.
It’s official.
There is no way to be nice to you, as you see any word as an attack so you can play the role of aggrieved victim.
Now wishing someone a blessed day is treated as an affont.
I would bid you adieu & wish you a nice life but I’m afraid of what barbarous acts I’d be accused of committing, so I’ll simply say “bye” and wish you a good tidings and reprieve from the evil males around every corner.
Oh, and “boo”. Heh.
Rome Again
It has nothing to do with my marrying a psychopath, although there are many psychopaths in this world and they do have a tendancy to marry sometimes. The fact is that there are quite a few men out there (not all, not even most, but quite a few) who seem to think that women are their property whether wife-beating is illegal in this country or not. To try to whitewash it and make it appear otherwise is to do a disservice to those women who suffer under such circumstances. I did not report my abuse because I knew it would only cause more harm. I’m not alone in that respect. What I’m saying is that we are not fully aware of the problem here in this country. I was merely stating that I disagreed with the statement that we’ve come to grips with our own problem, because as I’ve been able to surmise (by experience and talking to others) quite often abuse goes unreported.
I once knew a lady who wanted to press charges against her husband, and then she was told that if she did, he could press charges against her too, for defending herself. She withdrew her request. These types of situations do happen, and we appear to be sweeping them under the rug with this discussion. That’s all I’m saying.
Kimmitt
You absolutely cannot be serious. Ye gods. Yes, her example is painfully ordinary. I have analogous ones in my own family and friends. You speak from mind-boggling ignorance.
Rome Again
But that is the point, it is more ordinary than you think. I’ve talked to women who go through similar. I’ve seen other custody court decisions that put children in dangerous situations, not just my own. Mine is not as isolated a case as you wish to make it out to be. The examples you placed above were extremes (come on, baseball? that made absolutely NO sense in the context of this argument). You are minimizing my situation and stating that its not really normal, and I’ll bet you really haven’t been face to face with many women (or men for that matter – yes male abuse does occur as well) who discuss their domestic violence situations.
I am not a victim, I moved on and learned what I was doing wrong. Since then I have tried to help others do the same. What I found is that quite often, a woman is put into a position where she feels she’s fighting city hall, and has no power. That’s how I felt. I wanted to be a mother to my child, I never got to be, simply because I tried to defend her from an abusive attack. Everyday I consider the fact that if I’d only allowed my ex to beat her, I would have been able to raise her. I’d also considered the fact that if I had had more money, I could have hired a lawyer to fight for my maternal rights. I didn’t have the money.
You should go visit a county courtroom sometime and see the mothers whose children are being ripped out of their lives by the state, sometimes these mothers love their children dearly.
I apologize for thinking you were insulting me, it sounded like an insult. I am very sorry, sometimes the way things read online are not the way they were meant to be heard. I must have read wrong and jumped the gun. I was wrong.
As for the offer of blessings, I don’t believe in religious blessings and I would hope that you would respect that. Thank you for the kind offer, I’m sorry that I see that concept differently than you, but I hope that you can respect a person’s right to not have a religous concept (any religious concept)invoked on them if they don’t believe in such. A blessing involves invoking spirits that I am not comfortable with to intrude upon my life. Those spirits may seem harmless to you, I see otherwise. I hope you understand.
Again I apologize, but I hope you understand. Please consider the fact that you probably would not want me to invoke the spirit of my God on you either, nor would it be right of me to do so.
Rome Again
Out of sight, out of mind. Besides, most of these cases also involve poverty or lack of financial stability as well. Usually you only see them in the darker corners of society. I had the almost good fortune to be a millionaire’s daughter who went through it after my father died and had left my mother 100% of his assets (which she drank away, bad investments and such). She did not offer to help me financially. Talk about an eye-opening experience. I grew up in a well-to-do cacoon of cadillacs, mansions and condos to working for a living in a drug store and wrestling (alone) with the state for my child.
Rome Again
And I realize that I equate both the beatings and the loss of my child as being part of the same incident, that is because one came from the other in my situation, it is hard for me to separate the two. That is not what happens in most cases (I’m fully aware of that), but it does happen in some.
Oliver Cleary
I have to agree. I spent three years working as a counselor for domestic violence victims, and stories like this are disturbingly common. Usually, we had about 30-40 restraining order hearings going through a day; I’d say that on average, 2 or 3 of them were somewhere approaching the horror level of Rome Again’s story.
Some of the ones I haven’t successfully stopped thinking about yet:
1) A teenage girl who was accidentally shot by her father because he was beating his wife with the butt of a rifle when it discharged.
2) A woman who was 8 months pregnant, whose husband beat her within an inch of her life, causing her to miscarriage, and who then broke his 12-year-old stepson’s nose when the boy tried to call the police. She dismissed the restraining order because his lawyer convinced her to, and she was worried about the financial ramifications of getting her TRO finalized. (There were many, many cases where the victim had to choose between escaping the abuser and being able to feed her children. Especially when you consider that a lot of jobs can no longer employ someone with a restraining order against them; you can’t work in law enforcement, for example, and then your domestic abuse victim can’t get child support payments out of you.)
3) A woman whose husband shot her, slit her son’s throat so badly that he almost died, then threatened to burn her house down, came into the courthouse trying to dismiss the restraining order. A colleague and I spent 4 hours trying to convince her to keep the order; finally she agreed, and the judge granted her a permanent restraining order. The next day, she came in and dismissed it.
4) A husband had previously cracked his wife’s head open with a flashlight and molested their children came home one day and raped her, then threatened to kill her. She had to appear in front of the court pro se, we weren’t allowed to provide the victims with any legal representation. The defendant had a lawyer. The petition for a final restraining order was denied.
5) A woman whose boyfriend beat her with a frying pan over every square inch of her body below her neckline because she wouldn’t give him a blowjob. She also had to appear pro se, due to lack of funds. The judge asked her to show him if she’d received any injuries, but she was so intimidated by having the abuser in the room that she was visibly shaking and unable to speak. The judge denied the restraining order.
I could go on and on and on. Or, you could take a trip to the courthouse in Camden County, New Jersey, and see for yourself. None of the individual stories is anything more than a horrific anecdote, of course. I seem to remember Stalin said something to the effect of, “One murder is a tragedy, one million murders is a statistic.” If anecdotal tragedies aren’t your thing, check out some statistics.
http://www.abanet.org/domviol/stats.html
Frankly, I don’t even know what’s being debated anymore. Are we arguing about whether women have it worse in Saudi Arabia? Seems to me they probably do, from what I’ve heard. Sharia law, honor killings, etc. (While we’re on the subject of Saudi mistreatment of women, I’d also like to take this opportunity to thank the Bush dynasty for propping that Wahhabi regime up all these years. Of course, when that discussion starts, suddenly it’s all about realpolitik and safeguarding energy resources, and nobody really wants to talk about womens’ rights anymore. Very convenient.)
On the other hand, so what? I don’t live in Saudi Arabia, and in all likelihood neither will my wife or any daughters we might eventually have. We live in America. Anyone who’s trying to suggest that domestic violence isn’t a serious, ongoing problem in this country, regardless of its illegality, needs to study the problem a bit more carefully. It’s true that women aren’t being “specifically targeted” in this country (whatever the Hell that means), but you must admit that it’s a frightening statistic that one in three American women will be physically and/or sexually assaulted at some point in their lifetime. Mainstream America may not specifically target women, but I’ve met quite a few individual men who do so.
And veering away from anecdotes into statistics is kind of pointless, isn’t it? If you don’t want to believe domestic violence is a serious problem in this country, neither anecdotes nor statistics will convince you otherwise. I can’t say I don’t empathize. I hadn’t given the issue much thought either until I started working at that courthouse. It’s easy to be dismissive of the problem until you start learning more about it. And it shouldn’t be a partisan issue; I’m a liberal Democrat, but I volunteered with a lot of conservative Republicans at that courthouse. On the other hand, it’s also a fact that the Red states tend to be somewhat more likely to push this matter under the carpet. I don’t have statistics to back me up there, though, only anecdotes like this:
http://www.wistv.com/Global/story.asp?S=3233130&nav=0RaMYral
Cutler
“So, you’re basically saying you would rather live in a paternalist totalitarian state where you have virtually no rights than in an imperfect democracy where you do? Well, you’re certainly entitled to your opinion; your experiences probably entitle you to more of an opinion than most.”
More of an opinion?
‘Fraid not.
Any female who’d rather live in Saudi Arabia than the United States is either a masochist or ignorant.
Cutler
-Signed Mr. Unsensitive.
Cutler
-And also a poor speller at 3 AM. ;)
Oliver Cleary
Rome Again:
I’m very sorry for what happened to you. I hope your daughter can overcome this unspeakable adversity as well as you have. If you need any help finding outreach programs or counseling in her area, please let me know. I know how painful it is to watch someone you care about destroy themselves. Particularly when you’ve gone through the same experience yourself. But as you know, her escape from the cycle of violence is ultimately up to her; the best anyone else can hope to do is provide resources and information, then hope that she finds the strength to help herself. I don’t know much about the situation, so there’s nothing else I can say right now. Except that I hope for the best for you both.
RW
Rome,
I meant that going after one husband with a knife & having two that beat you wasn’t ordinary. If folks do want to argue that it’s near commonplace, then…..fine. Whatever.
Glad we can end on a civil note. I’m hoping “have a nice life” is okay & wish all the best for you & yours.
RW
One more thing, your personal example, aside from being rare, is quite illegal within the USA (which has been pointed out repeatedly). My extreme examples were put forth to illustrate the notion that arguing anecdotal evidence as being “covertly legal” is something that anyone could say, Rome. The evidence (local, state, federal laws) shows otherwise.
To then project anecdotal evidence across the nation and then claim that, based on your personal experience and people that you’ve “talked to”, the USA is in no position to condemn *legal spousal abuse* in other countries is, well, absurd. Anecdotal evidence is useless in a general discussion, especially involving countries.
For example (and I guess I can use this here since it occurred elsewhere), I recently saw someone claim that Bill Clinton didn’t run on a middle-class tax cut in 1992 because – get this – that’s not the way the person remembered it. Everyone with an internet connection knows that a google search easily shows the evidence to be otherwise, but since this dishonest moron declared that it wasn’t in their long-term memory cells, it didn’t occur. Now, you seem to be an intelligent person and I’m not using that example as a parallel in order to sideswipe you (that the other person is a dimwit has no bearing on you), I’m saying that one’s personal experience does not a national trend/act/phenomenon make. Yes, spousal abuse occurs. Yes, we prosecute it when enough evidence is at hand (and DA’s are up for re-election in our republic in case the citizens are unhappy) and to expand the notion that it’s “covertly legal” to an entire nation’s activity is stretching things, to say the least. Tom Sizemore will tell you that it’s not “covertly legal” (anecdotal evidence in return).
BTW, “blessed” is non-denominational and pertains to the religious or non-religious entity of your choice. “Fate” can bless you with good luck, you know.
Have a good one, I’m spent.
RW
But it’s still “a fact”, eh?
Cripes, I blame our public schools for this.
docob
“It has nothing to do with my marrying a psychopath, although there are many psychopaths in this world and they do have a tendancy to marry sometimes.”
Yes, they do have a tendency to get married sometimes. The thing is, in the USA they get married to partners that FREELY CHOOSE to marry them. What bothers me is your repeatedly stating “here in America, the land of the free” as if your experience somehow disproves the fact that US citizens in general (and females in particular) enjoy a MUCH higher level of personal freedom than the vast majority of the world’s population.
Congrats on your prospects for career advancement also. How many women in SA do you think are in a similar position?
Ampersand
I wonder if I’m the only regular reader of both Balloon Juice and Pandagon? I honestly think both sites are terrific, although politically I agree much more with Amanda. But this sort of fight – “you’re whiney! You’re a penis!” – is, for me, much more noise than content.
Earlier in this thread, TV Harry approvingly quoted this:
As far as I know, Ms. O’Neill – who has made a career for decades of denying that discrimination against either women or minorities is ever significant – has never published her 98% figure in a peer-reviewed scholarly publication. Instead, she published the number in an opinion column in the Wall Street Journal. That’s not really an impressive source.
It’s simply a bad study. As the bit TV Harry quoted mentioned, it apparently controlled for both experience and years of work – but these two controls are enourmously overlapping, and controlling for them both is double-dipping.
More importantly, it cut out from consideration anyone who’s not a parent, and anyone who wasn’t age 27-33 at the time of data collection – an arbitrary distinction that makes me suspect that O’Neill has cherry-picked the data.
That’s not true of all studies making that comparison. Many peer-reviewed studies (scroll to the bottom of this post) have properly controlled for the factors O’Neill is concerned about – and nonetheless found that a considerable unexplained wage gap remains.
Oliver Cleary
That whole post, complete with a link to website statistically demonstrating the enormity of the domestic violence problem in this country, and this is all you can find to comment on?
Cripes, I blame our talk radio blatherers for this.
Anyway, it was 2:30 am and I really didn’t feel like finding anything for you other than anecdotal evidence. (For fuck’s sake, though, how does anything become other than “anecdotal” when one is discussing the legislation of only 50 subjects? All you’re going to end up with is 50 anecdotes, you know. And that’s a fact.)
I don’t have time to look up the relevant statutes of every state and explain to you in each example why some statutes offer more protection than others. (For example, blue state Delaware only offers restraining orders if the relationship is spousal, or if you have a child in common; New Jersey is much more open, and includes gay couples and roommates- really, any situation where the violence could arguably be classified as “domestic,” intra-household; South Carolina offers less protection than either state). I’ll do a 2-second google search, throw some random links at you, and be done with you. Life’s too short to waste on the wilfully ignorant.
http://lists.uua.org/pipermail/bgilt-news/2005-April/001950.html (most relevant paragraph: “Recently, because of such [anti-gay marriage] amendments, the governor of Michigan has put a
hold on domestic partner benefits for state workers, while lawyers for the
University of Utah have nixed insurance perks for staff partners. A court
in Ohio ruled that unmarried couples are no longer covered by some
criminal statutes covering domestic violence.”)
Or, you could look on this thread and find the Arizona law. Or, you could go back two days, and read about the Indiana legislature’s wacky fun. (So far, the tally of red states I’ve got that are worse on domestic violence include South Carolina, Indiana, Kansas, Ohio, Arizona, and if we wanted to write a paper tying in states that have anti-gay marriage legislation with states that have watered-down anti-domestic violence legislation, I’m guessing we could add several more. Which would statistically cover about 90% of red states, anecdotally of course.)
But what’s the point, really? I’ve already shown you the evidence that domestic violence is a serious problem in this country, if you want to ignore it that’s your privilege. See no evil, hear no evil. I suppose that’s the easiest course of action, anyway. And it’s always good for shits and giggles at the expense of domestic violence victims like Rome Again or random feminazis like Amanda Marcotte, which is what’s really important here.
Oliver Cleary
If folks want to demonstrate how commonplace it is with a combination of personal anecdotes, statistics and data, then… fine. Whatever. I’ll attack them for something else, less relevant, but which provides me with the opportunity to stroke my own ego and completely disregard whatever factual basis they had for making this assertion.
Crawl back under your rock, RW. I’m sure you’re quite insulated from domestic violence there.
MisterPundit
That’s true. And since nobody is as “nuanced” as a retard, I have no idea what it is you’re trying to say. The rest of the monkeys are applauding approvingly though.
RW
That you allocated “fact” to something that is not.
Other than that, not much.
Yeah, that’s what people are doing, saying that domestic violence isn’t a serious problem. I bet it’s a “fact” that I don’t care about women & kick little puppies, as well, right?
Lighten up, Francis, and lay off the ad homs. The link that started the discussion pertained to people losing credibility via their argument tactics. You do yourself no favors.
Oliver Cleary
I’m afraid that it is, my quibblesome critic. But since you’re unwilling to concede so, I’m not going to force the issue.
Hey, I’m not the one that spent an entire night making fun of a domestic violence victim. Or making statements like this devoid of any “factual” basis:
Which is the outrageous idiocy that spurred me to post here in the first place.
I don’t know anything about your proclivities for kicking puppies, and I don’t care. I’m basing my criticisms based on what you’ve said in this thread, not what you do when you’re not loafing around here annoying me.
My name’s not Francis, and this is nothing to be lighthearted about. There’s plenty of other threads for you to joke around in. What made you decide this one was so fun? I’m not even making ad homs at this point, I’m not even arguing with you. I stopped arguing with you last night, really, because there’s no argument to be had. I’m factually right, and you’re factually wrong, and you’ve yet to even attempt to refute any of my substantive points. All you’ve offered is snark and insult and ad hominems, Mr. Pot. Meet Mr. Kettle, motherfucker.
These aren’t ad hominem attacks if there’s no argument. I’m just insulting the kind of worthless shitbrain who thinks any of this is something to be funny or snarky about. I don’t need any favors from you, either. Piss off. I’ve said all I have to say to you. If you want another torrent of obscenities, feel free to reply. That’s all you’ve earned this entire thread, really. I’m frankly a little upset I didn’t start cussing you out from the get-go, I would’ve saved myself a lot of wasted time and effort. I really don’t see the point in expending any more mental energy on attempting to reason with you. But cussing you out some more might be fun.
Rome Again
Oliver, awesome posting, thanks for jumping in. And also for the good wishes. I’m hoping she figures it out one day, but at the moment I’m not so sure. You are correct though, as much as I want to make it all better for her, I can’t, she has to do that herself.
RW, no hard feelings, but I still contend that it is much more commonplace than you realize.
Also, per the blessings thing, I’m not non-denominated, nor am I denominated. “Denomination” or the lack thereof has no meaning in my belief whatsoever. Jesus was a great philosopher, he is not the center of my belief, nor is he even at the peripheral. I follow his beatitudes as a social construct that I believe is how we should treat one another, but religiously speaking, he has no significance in my understanding of God. Therefore your statement that a blessing is okay because it is non-denominational still doesn’t give me reason to say “okay, thanks for that blessing”. I said last night, thanks for the thought, but the blessing itself is not welcomed. My understanding of a blessing is invoking a spirit, and a spirit (any spirit) being invoked to “work” in my life is not a welcoming idea to me. Can you understand now? Can you let it rest now? I will not allow you to do that to me, so if you’re still considering trying to change my mind, please don’t. My belief is my own, and I have a right to it. I’m not sitting here telling you what my belief is or why you should believe it, but please allow me to have my own belief, free from the influence of invoked spirits of a religion that I don’t believe. Fair enough?
RW
Once more, it needn’t be religious at all. If I intended it to pertain to “may Jesus bless you” I would have stated such. Once more, “fate” may offer blessings. It was non-anything except a wish for good tidings. Nothing but the best was intended, implied and put forth.
But, fair enough, it is.
Oliver Cleary
Thanks. Sorry for losing my temper arguing with someone who had already demonstrated he didn’t deserve the time expenditure necessary to research a serious argument on this issue. It feels disrespectful to you, which matters a lot more to me than my being disrespectful to him does.
Again, if you need any information that you might want to relay to your daughter, let me know. I can’t say anything about the way it feels now, you’ve just got to hope for the best and support her any way you can for now. If (and hopefully, when) she’s ready to ditch the motherfucking asshole(s) abusing her, she’ll be in a good position to permanently escape the cycle of violence.
RW
Original quote:
I’m sure there’s a handy-dandy reference for the FACT that red states tend to push domestic violence under the carpet more than blue states. With notion that something pushed under the carpet (hidden) means that it doesn’t show up in any sort of official data leads the mind to wonder where the source for your anecdotes comes from.
Or did you mean something else?
Nothing like a little bravado via the security of a keyboard & modem, eh?
ppGaz
Well, I am not going to do your work for you, but the last time I checked, the red states were leading in things like divorce, teen pregnancy ….. no reason to think that they’d be setting a good example in domestic violence, is there?
Let’s get some figures. I have $5 that says that in the aggregate the red states have more wife beating than the blue states. Takers?
RW
“push domestic violence under the carpet”
“fact”
“push domestic violence under the carpet”
“fact”
“push domestic violence under the carpet”
“fact”
I give up. Some folks cannot comprehend reading text unless it’s put forth in crayon.
Oliver Cleary
You should know, judging by your posts you only started reading at the third grade level about a week ago.
Cripes, I blame our private schools for this.
RW
As expected, you couldn’t back up your assertion.
You had no “facts”. You simply pulled something from your nether regions and declared them to be true. And when called upon to provide substance, you came up wanting. Must’ve been tough to know that you had to come up with a response that lacked any supporting data.
Not that it wasn’t predicted.
Some info: links take you to web sites. If you think I’m anonymous, then you’re not bright enough to click on a link.
Finally, let’s hope you learn from this. BTW, if you think typing teenage rants via a keyboard gets one street cred somewhere other than sites like the dailykos (where you likely came here from), you’re in for a bigger suprise than the one you garnered when you searched for supporting data and came up with nothing. That had to hurt.
Have a nice life. Heh.
Slartibartfast
Whoops, even a teeny bit of looking around would have shown you that RW is far from anonymous.
Kimmitt
Oh, for Pete’s sake. Listen, can I call, I dunno, Star Jones or someone to get the last word in here so none of us have to?
It’s best to let things die sometimes.
MisterPundit
Don’t worry Forrest, you’ll get the hang of it eventually!
Oliver Cleary
Stupid is as stupid does, Mister Pundit. :)
Catsy
The whining from the right about people who “blame America first” gets a bit tedious. It is a deliberate exercise in missing a few very important points.
It is true that many people on the left spend far more time and energy criticizing our own government and country and its ills than we do places elsewhere in the world that are worse. This is as it should be, and there’s a very good reason for it: we live here. Most of us were born in this country, all of us call it our home. We are nominally represented in government by our elected officials, and what we do as a country, whether officially or culturally, reflects on us as a whole. Moreover, and more relevantly to this right-wing whinefest, this is the country we actually have a voice in changing. Of course we care more about what our government and people do than what they do in Saudi Arabia. Of course we feel more keenly the sting of a lesser wrong in our country than we do a greater wrong thousands of miles away. Of course most of us think our energy is better spent advocating for changes in this country that we have a possibility of enacting than for changes in a Middle Eastern monarchy on which we have no influence at all.
These points are so blindingly, self-evidently obvious that the wingnuts who whine about “blame America firsters” can only be indulging in deliberate, studied ignorance to not get it. Whether they do this to perpetuate a smear against their political opponents or to avoid the necessity of taking a hard, critical look at what needs changing in our own house, I don’t know. But it’s an act of staggering, willful ignorance all the same.