Since the Marine Corps is recommending that officers read Jim Webb’s book, and Red State thinks it is nothing but filth and perversion and disgusting, I think what we all need to know is:
“Why do Republicans and Red State hate the Marine Corps?”
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Pb
Wow, you threw me for a loop there–I was sure the question was going to be, why does the Marine Corps hate America? Oh well, we’ll see what the right-wing blogosphere comes up with on that one. Like, maybe a Democrat infiltrated their reading list and snuck that one in! Uh oh, paranoia time, I see a purge coming! Seriously, that’s like their whole M.O. now, foreign and domestic.
The Liberal Avenger
The book is an example of what the Marine Corps is fighting AGAINST on our behalf.
srv
Well of course, now we know why we’re losing in Iraq. The officers are reading the wrong books.
Why isn’t the Bible on that list?
GADMAN
You’ll hear cricket’s chirping for a long time before you get an answer to that question…
This is the guy REDSTATE is sliming.
http://content.hamptonroads.com/story.cfm?story=113303&ran=33810
[i]The Navy Cross is presented to James H. Webb, Jr., First Lieutenant, U.S. Marine Corps, for extraordinary heroism while serving as a Platoon Commander with Company D, First Battalion, Fifth Marines, First Marine Division (Reinforced), Fleet Marine Force, in connection with combat operations against the enemy in the Republic of Vietnam.
On 10 July 1969, while participating in a company-sized search and destroy operation deep in hostile territory, First Lieutenant Webb’s platoon discovered a well-camouflaged bunker complex which appeared to be unoccupied. Deploying his men into defensive positions, First Lieutenant Webb was advancing to the first bunker when three enemy soldiers armed with hand grenades jumped out.
Reacting instantly, he grabbed the closest man and, brandishing his .45 caliber pistol at the others, apprehended all three of the soldiers.
Accompanied by one of his men, he then approached the second bunker and called for the enemy to surrender. When the hostile soldiers failed to answer him and threw a grenade which detonated dangerously close to him, First Lieutenant Webb detonated a claymore mine in the bunker aperture, accounting for two enemy casualties and disclosing the entrance to a tunnel.
Despite the smoke and debris from the explosion and the possibility of enemy soldiers hiding in the tunnel, he then conducted a thorough search which yielded several items of equipment and numerous documents containing valuable intelligence data. Continuing the assault, he approached a third bunker and was preparing to fire into it when the enemy threw another grenade.
Observing the grenade land dangerously close to his companion, First Lieutenant Webb simultaneously fired his weapon at the enemy, pushed the Marine away from the grenade, and shielded him from the explosion with his own body.
Although sustaining painful fragmentation wounds from the explosion, he managed to throw a grenade into the aperture and completely destroy the remaining bunker.
By his courage, aggressive leadership, and selfless devotion to duty, First Lieutenant Webb upheld the highest traditions of the Marine Corps and of the United States Naval Service.[/i]
OCSteve
Thanks for posting that Gadman, I had not read it before.
Capturing 3 dudes with grenades – with a .45? Big brass ones. BTW – Claymores are awesome. Glad to see you folks on the left approving of these actions. (no snark).
As a registered repub – I disown the Allen campaign using exerts from the man’s fictional writing. His early opinions on women in combat are more damaging I think – but I happen to agree with them.
Hmmm. All in all I would vote for this dude over that punk Allen.
He may have sold his soul to Satan though – look at his present pix. Born in ’46, Assistant SecDef in ’84, his ’06 pic looks like he could kick ass and take names.
Seriously – this should be no contest and I would cross the aisle to vote for him.
jcricket
I had forgotten (in my response in the other “Say Anything” thread) about the whole Schmidt vs. Murtha flap (where the 34-year career Marine is suddenly called a coward).
I think I trust Murtha and other Iraq/Afghanistan war vets to have his finger on the pulse of the military more than the vile Jean Schmidt.
Again, whose party really supports the military, the troops, etc?
searp
If Allen had anything at all to run ON, as opposed to AGAINST, we wouldn’t be bombarded by this drivel. All hat, no cattle.
The Red State stuff is simply a good illustration of Lord Acton’s aphorism – power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. They will say or do anything, no matter how stupid and unprincipled, to protect their own.
Casting my vote for Webb will be the most satisfying thing I do 7 November.
Tsulagi
Perfect opportunity for Pubs to once again step up to the plate to show how they support the troops. Demand the Marine Corps replace Webb’s Fields of Fire on that list with Cheney’s Sisters. Nothing like a good lesbian western romance novel to inspire Marine officers against the evildoers.
The Other Steve
When did Republicans start standing up for women’s rights?
When I was in college they were fighting against women working, the ERA amendment and equal pay and all sorts of things. Now they’re the champion of women?
jcricket
Around the same time they became the champions for gay rights (see the outrage around Edwards discussion of Mary Cheney, and the recent flap about bringing to light that certain actively homophobic (read: use it in campaigns and vote for anti-gay legislation) Republicans are themselves gay.
Zifnab
Holy crap! What a badass! If I’d read this earlier, I’d have moved to Virginia just to give him my vote.
If Red State can’t support this guy, at least in spirit… I don’t even know what to say. Except, maybe that they’re a bunch of pussies.
OCSteve
Well, speaking just for myself – I rather like them yes. (Not that if you don’t, there is anything wrong with that. Well, unless you want to marry, that could be a problem. Oh yeah – any embryos produced – hands off you b*tches.)
demimondian
Zif — he won the fucking Navy Cross, man. If you want to imagine real BIG BRASS ONES, the service crosses are the *second* highest awards given to members of the armed service. Step back and think about what the Presidential Medal of Honor means.
(Now, think about how vile it was to grant its civilian equivalent to George Tenet.)
The Other Steve
Anyway, I’m not surprised to see the Allen supporters attacking Webb’s military experiences.
They did the same thing to Kerry, and were doing much the same thing to General Clark during the primaries.
The reality is, the Republican party doesn’t respect soldiers unless they are voting Republican, and only then the respect is just for show not heart felt.
OCSteve
There is a HUGE difference between this genuine badass and Kerry. I’d hope you could acknowledge that. I don’t agree with disparaging Kerry’s service – but I could see where it was a legitimate question, once he chose to run on it.
This guy is a true hero – as in you don’t hear him mention it. He is not running on his service, WTHN I don’t know. He should be, I wasn’t aware of his TRUE heroism until today. I would cross the aisle to vote for him. He gives the Dems a huge leg up on national defense. Kerry – ah, not so much.
GADMAN
OCSteve –
He made a CHOICE not to use is military service during the campaign. However, that might change now since Allen’s campaign pulled this stunt.
OCSteve
It should. This is a great story. At the least, someone associated with the campaign should be putting it out there.
Zifnab
Kerry came back home and said we should pull the hell out of Vietnam. Which is something America needed to hear. But it doesn’t ring with the “live by the core, die by the core” mentality that so many servicemen hold dear. Kerry also served in the military, but made his living as a politician.
I don’t think anyone can go off and compare Kerry’s record of service to that to, say, the “Rio Grande Coke Head Wanna-be Flyboy” level of committment. But Webb is clearly cut from a different cloth than Kerry.
For fuck’s sake, the man was an Admiral and a Reaganite. They’re not even in the same ballpark.
Chuck Butcher
The current Governor of Oregon is Ted Kulongoski (D), raised in an orphanage, a Marine, former bricklayer, put himself through college, and the R’s chalenge him for lack of will. What he does do is consistently stand for the “little guy” in Oregon. He also has attended the funeral of every Oregonian killed in Iraq/Afghanistan.
Maybe it’s the caliber of the Dem Governor candidates over the past few terms that reduces the Rs to running such train wrecks, but they frankly would have been disasters as Governor. If I were a Republican I’d be seeing what I could do about that trend in the future.
BadTux
What do ya expect for a buncha goddamned coward chicken hawks who are fine with sending other people’s boys into combat, but too cowardly to volunteer themselves? You call them on their cowardice, they whine and whine and whine and make excuses. Crap, I had guts enough to walk into a recruiting station in 1983 when ole’ Ronnie Raygun was preznit and war between the Soviet Union and USA had moved from the unthinkable to the likely column, and the Soviets had the goddamn ATOMIC BOMB. Least these chickenshits could do would be to walk into the recruiting station and volunteer to fight a war that they want against an enemy that has nothing but crappy Chinese and Iranian copies of the AK-47 and a bunch of old howitzer shells set off by model airplane controllers.
As for John F. Kerry, any man who volunteers for combat duty is a f’ing hero, period. And anybody who denies that is a goddamned chickenshit who don’t deserve to be called an American. Period. It’s telling that it’s f’ing chickenhawks too cowardly to volunteer themselves who always spread crap about someone else’s military service. I spit on them. PTHEW. Cowards. Worthless scum. They aren’t fit to lick John Kerry’s bare naked ass clean after a dump. I might wonder what happened to Kerry’s balls after he got elected to the Senate, but his military service? Uhn-uh.
Sorry to be blunt here. As for Webb’s novel, anybody who thinks Marines don’t curse and fuck and fight and drink like fish ain’t ever been a Marine or even talked to one in real life. I found it very realistic. I.e., not prettyfied and pussified like those goddamned chickenhawks who are shitting on our Marines.
– Badtux the Military Penguin
wilfred
Remember, this is not just some isolated frat boy Red State pussy sliming a Navy Cross winner, but a whole site that routinely hosts important Republican pols like those great war heroes George Allen, Denny Hastert and Rick Santorum. This shows them for the lowlife, chickenhawk shits they always were.
82ndAbnVet
I read ‘Fields of Fire’ 3 times when I was a grunt in the Eighty-Duece back in the early ’80s. It was a popular book among the troopers. I remember no complaints about sex scenes or what have you
jcricket
You know, you hear that a lot (that there is such a mentality), and I don’t doubt it’s true for some non-trivial part of the military. As someone who’s grandfather and father both volunteered for military service, and yet have at times spoken out against military interventions they thought were misguided, there’s another side to the military we don’t hear about, for some reason.
If the whole “live/die by the core” thing is so deep, how do we explain so many generals speaking out against the Iraq war? Or all Fighting Dems while both wars are still going on? Or all the people that talk to Murtha? Or all the Iraq & Afghanistan vets who are busy speaking out (read the site, it contains a lot of honest talk from vets who are angry about the war and speaking their minds). Or Pat Tillman’s brother Kevin?
Let’s even look at Kerry – He wasn’t just one guy pointing out the atrocities in Vietnam. Regarding his military bona-fides, he volunteered and was wounded multiple times during combat (but instead a bunch of men who didn’t serve with him, or at all, are to be trusted when judging what type of military man Kerry was).
My point with all this is that there’s clearly an equally non-trivial group in the military that doesn’t find it unpatriotic or disloyal to dissent from the Commander-in-Chief. They clearly don’t think that failing to “toe the Republican line” when they come home means they should have their service records and honesty attacked. My favorite tactic is when Republicans criticize a vet because he wasn’t “on the front lines” (suddenly only the infantry are legitimate military folks, right?)
While I will gladly admit that these dissenting vets don’t have a monopoly on the truth, they’re certainly to be commended equally for their service to our country in war-time and their service to our country when speaking out when they think the military is being misused or mistreated. In a sane world Republicans would react to these vets by seeking to understand what’s at the root of their complaints. Instead, this is the world Republicans want us to live in:
The Other Steve
The purple heart bandages were justified?
I don’t think so. And that was the least of the baseless accusations made.
If Republicans actually cared about soldiers, they’d show a little respect for what they have done.
The Other Steve
Amen.
Zifnab
These are extraordinary times. In any other generation we didn’t have Father Knows Best as Secretary of Defense. Even in Vietnam, Cheney and Kissenger gave advice and offered options, but they never grabbed the reins and drove the carriage off the cliff like Civilian Commander Rumsfield has managed to.
In part, the military rebellion has developed because you’re not breaking ranks with an eccentric vetted general, but a plan clothes smuck who thinks he can run the military better than the military can. In part, we’re seeing this develop because the self-same plan clothes smuck is perpetually wrong.
When people ask why Republicans lost the military vote ten or twenty years from now, you can give them three reasons. Rumsfield. Rumsfield. Rumsfield. I’ve never seen a political figure absolutely poison the well against its own base since Benedict Arnold.
The Other Steve
Another interesting point… the Republican smear against Bob Kerrey was that he was a war criminal because of Thanh Phong.
The Republican smear against Wesley Clark was that he tried to start a war with Russia at the Kosovo airport.
[Both smears actually come from counterpunch.org or the world socialist website]
ThymeZone
Okay, can we start the thread over?
It’s the CORPS, not the core.
And,
Marines don’t do anything like fish. Fish drink like Marines.
Thanks.
Back to your regularly scheduled slugfest.
jcricket
What about Cheney? Not in charge enough for the troops to hate him? If I were in the military, someone who had “better things to do with his time” who shows such obvious contempt for actual veterans would be high on my list of people never to vote for again.
BTW, it’s not a new phenomenon. My father’s business partners were medics during Vietnam. Both came back, never spoke of the war again, and haven’t voted for a Republican since.
Andrew J. Lazarus
Why does that Red State thread have so few comments? Have they banned that many people?
demimondian
No. Fish wish they could drink like Marines. They aren’t man enough to do it, though.
For that matter, female fish aren’t woman enough to drink like Marines, either.
jcricket
Somehow I’m feeling a “Chuck Norris Fact” coming on.
tBone
Careful, OCSteve. That’s crazy talk. One wrong vote on your part could tip our country into a long national nightmare of gay marriage, unfettered illegal immigration, human cloning, and terrorist attacks, all orchestrated by the cloven-hooved Nancy Pelosi. Or so I hear.
Seriously, nice to hear from a sane Republican who can actually conceive of voting for someone across the aisle (aside from crazed proto-Defeatocrat John Cole, I mean).
Webb’s old comments are perfectly fair game for criticism, as far as I’m concerned. You’d think they’d hit that harder instead of trying this ridiculous bullshit about his novels. Then again, maybe they’re worried that there are a lot of Republicans like you out there who agree with Webb’s earlier stance on women in combat.
CaseyL
Yes.
The banning threshold has gotten so low, along with the caliber of the posts and comments, that anyone with a better-than-fifth-grade education and reading comprehension level is unwelcome there.
About a year ago, I called Red State “the festering ingrown toenail of political blogs.” But even I never imagined how much worse it could get. It’s not only gangrenous, it’s boring.
ThymeZone
Well, I lived in Santa Ana and Costa Mesa and Mission Viejo.
Those things would just make OCSteve feel at home ;^)
Ned R.
Wait, I live in Costa Mesa now. We’re a cabal!
stickler
Only an Oregonian could recognize what’s really happening to this site:
John Cole, I present to you a classic case of Californication. At this point, you have few options aside from rabid xenophobia (we’re going with demonizing them and preventing them from pumping their own gasoline), or simple acquiescence (and if you own property, obscene profiteering). Otherwise, I’d advise you that resistance is futile. You will be assimilated. Dude.
Jon H
tBone writes: “One wrong vote on your part could tip our country into a long national nightmare of gay marriage, unfettered illegal immigration, human cloning, and terrorist attacks, all orchestrated by the cloven-hooved Nancy Pelosi.”
Let’s not get carried away. The woman has a corn & bunion problem but that’s a long way from having hooves.
Mike P.
I just want to note here that the Marine Corps generally does not recommend it’s officers do anything.
If it’s on the Commandant’s “recommended,” list, you do it (or read it, as the case may be).
The Other Steve
Didn’t they ban most of their front page posters as well?
It’s telling that they choose the color red, I’m only surprised that bolshevik.com isn’t a redirect to redstate.com.
JK
I think of it more as “Josh Trevino’s bloody stool.”
Now that tacitus.org has bitten the dust, I wonter how ol’ Tac feels about having the current RedState as a major part of his legacy.
Zifnab
It’s comforting to know that I’m not the only who’s noticed that China, Russia, and the Republican Party all decided to color-coordinate.
Jay C
RedState? Heh; “DeadState” would be more appropriate – for a site that started out trying to be the “Republican DailyKos” they’ve managed to plateau at a whopping .01% of particpants (if that many); blammed the rest away, and have basically made themselves a blogosphere joke. I know it’s a common (dead common) saw, but for the sad Klown Kollege RS have made themselves into, it is, I think, justified: If Jim Webb were running as a Republican, and fluffing the Bush Adminstration at every turn, the RS gang would be expendi
Jay C
RedState? Heh; “DeadState” would be more appropriate – for a site that started out trying to be the “Republican DailyKos” they’ve managed to plateau at a whopping .01% of particpants (if that many); blammed the rest away, and have basically made themselves a blogosphere joke. I know it’s a common (dead common) saw, but for the sad Klown Kollege RS have made themselves into, it is, I think, justified: If Jim Webb were running as a Republican, and fluffing the Bush Adminstration at every turn, the RS gang would be expendi
Jay C
OOPS: AOL glitch posted my comment prematurely (twice!) and ate the rest. Sorry.
Shorter Jay C:
1. RedState sucks.
2. If Jim Webb were running as a Repub, RS would be praising him to the skies.
3. Webb’s response was “fuck you” – good for him.
Zifnab
I never really “got” Allen. He always came across as a bit of a sleazy, especially after that time he swiped Durbin’s amendment literally minutes before it was presented. I mean, surely if you’re going to pick a Republican to whole-heartedly defend and love and worship and glorify, you can do one better than George Allen. But that’s just my opinion.
Tulkinghorn
Its beginning to sound like scrutator.net
capelza
What front pagers did Red State ban?
chaos7023
Reporting from Virginia, they have. I’ve gotten at least three mailings from the Allen campaign about Webb’s old comments. Since I’m more concerned about recent history, I cast my absentee ballot for Webb on Saturday.
Lady Vet
Hi, y’all! Just a quick comment on Webb’s ’70’s views of women in combat: My Army service was in the late 70’s, as a German Linguist in Intelligence. I tried to be assigned Spanish, but they wouldn’t because Panama was considered a “combat zone” where women were concerned. (Or so “they” said…). At any rate, even though I’ve always disagreed with that view (having come of age as a young woman in the 70’s), Webb’s views were the dominant and operative ones. He may still feel that way, but he’s probably mellowed a bit. And anyway, times change. Women now give their lives, too. And moms – even vets – like me, with a child planning a career as an Air Force officer, can support someone who recognizes that we should never send our youth into harm’s way for the sake of this administration’s lack of cojones.
tBone
Thanks – hadn’t heard much about it recently with the flap over his novels.
Just to be clear, it would take me somewhat less than a nanosecond to choose Webb over Allen were I a Virginia resident.