Unsurprising news, via Steve Benen:
Nightmarish political realities in Baghdad are prompting American officials to curb their vision for democracy in Iraq. Instead, the officials now say they are willing to settle for a government that functions and can bring security.
Hell, Saddam brought security. He also counterbalanced Iran, kept a lid on jihadist crazies and tortured far fewer Iraqis to death on a per-month basis than the bloodthirsty gangs who will end up running the country. Iraq had electricity, sanitation, a vastly lower crime rate and a functioning medical system. Ethnic cleansing before/after Saddam seems to be a wash, only these days it is done with fewer beaurocrats and more cordless drills. Hey, at least we kept our credibility! Now when any middle easterner hears about America the first thing that comes to mind is abu Ghraib.
Don’t get me wrong, I liked Saddam about as much as a root canal from Laurence Olivier. Avoiding one of those would unquestionably count as a good thing as long as the alternative was not cutting off my own leg with a spork.
bpower
Ah, the spork, the comedian’s utensil.
TenguPhule
If wingnuts had brains, their heads would explode from this.
Expect the Right Nutters to start defending it in 5-4-3-2-1-
JWeidner
Nice Tim!
Subtle Marathon Man reference – me likey!
demimondian
Tim F., one of the few honest liberals in America, confesses that he really was a Saddam-lover all along.
Jake
Oh that’s easy:
“Clearly the Iraqis aren’t suited to (can’t appreciate) democracy.”
Spoken with the same mix of condesention and pity a Victorian era man would use to describe indenginous [sic] people, the poor and women.
myiq2xu
Robert Heinlein said that the distinction between “bad” and “worse” is far more important than the one between “good” and “better.”
Saddam = Bad
Current situation = worse
After we leave = worser
demimondian
There. Fixed.
Paul L.
Unleash the jackalopes.
Does that include crime’s committed by Saddam, his son’s or his cronies?
Naked twister == being dropping in a plastic shredder.
At least to a Muslim male.
So I can safely ignore any reports of human right violations in other countries as long as the ruler “keeps the peace”.
Dreggas
If they start saying that my head will explode. After all a lot of people (myself included) understood that:
1) the Iraqi’s were never going to be a democracy given their lack of real national unity and their various divisions.
2) if it were possible for them to have a democracy it would most likely never resemble our own.
3) there would never be a true democracy when it was conceived at virtual gunpoint.
Cassidy
While this may come as a shock, trying to shape Democracy out of a largely tribal culture that typically has no national identity, is a large part of the problem.
While I’m sure the more educated and secular Iraqis can appreciate the benefits of Democracy, the more rural areas do not.
Dreggas
Why not? After all we do so in Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and rhetoric aside we’ve done the same in Iran and Syria. This of course includes the ethnic cleansing done in Sudan and other parts of Africa as well as…what was that…oh yeah Somalia which you all bitched at us for doing.
Jackalopes indeed.
Cassidy
Fixed
demimondian
Payday!
Cassidy, either your comic timing is perfect, or you’re dumber than an anencephalic box of rocks. I’m voting for the former…which of the trolls writes you?
RSA
Szell: Is it safe?
Bush: Yes, Baghdad is safe, it’s very safe, it’s so safe you wouldn’t believe it.
Cassidy
Keep living in your utopian fantasies demimondian….the rest of us have a real world to operate in.
Nothing I’ve said is false. Your refusal to acknowledge that betrays a clear lack of understanding of the Arab world.
demimondian
I believe that completely. I just wish you’d actually do so. In the meantime…who’s writing you?
Punchy
Trust me, this qualifier will not be enough. You’re about to be labeled a Saddam-loving, dictator-sympathizing anti-patriot Islamonaziist.
I’d be stunned if the righties didn’t start linking to this by this afternoon in full scorn mode.
demimondian
coff…
https://balloon-juice.com/?p=8598#comment-365511
The Other Andrew
Amazingly, the latest National Intelligence Estimate doesn’t involve the promise of ponies when we turn the next corner. Click my name for more.
Punchy
Why would this be a shock? To whom? We Realists have been saying this since…April 2003.
That all the edumucated goons in the Bush Admin overlooked this is simply impossible. I’m guessing they knew, but didn’t care.
pacified
it’s the height of arrogance to think it will get worse without America there.
The cold hard truth: Iraqis were better off with Saddam in power. Sure, things sucked, but 95% of the time you knew what to do to NOT get killed. Keep your comments to yourself, etc. Now, just walking down the street and you might die.
RSA
Dentist-lover.
Tsulagi
Don’t forget, also a homophobic (if you’re talking about our dear Matty Sanchez) gay hater of the troops.
demimondian
Fixed
Ryan S.
OMG WTF, Right leaning people are now using the same logic that I used years ago when I was trying to show people how much of a stupid idea the notion of invading Iraq was.
Humorless Litmus
Everything Cassidy says is wrong, or if it is not wrong, it is only now coming around to the position I was taking all along. Sometimes it is both at the same time, but even then, I am still in the right, which is to say, on the left, and Cassidy is still, clearly, rightward leaning and therefore wrong. I hope you all got that.
Sorry Cassidy, thx4playing
Jake
Stay away from your TeeVee sweets. I’ve been catching hints of this train of “thought” for a while. Mixed in with that is the concept that Iraqis are ungrateful beasts who don’t appreciate all the US has done for them.
Add to that Bush has said they’re resilient.
I imagine the fRight will readily accept that a naturally un-democratic, ungrateful but tough population can be left to their own devices which will = VICTORY 4 US.
Of course, that leaves the problem of the democratically elected government already in place and everyone has a gun. In that sort of environment a power change is not going to be much fun at all and it is unlikely to result in a nice, friendly guy who is kind to puppies running the show. But hey, it will leave mean President Babs or Jenna Bush will have someone to fight.
Yes the Iraqis do have much in common with Americans. [rimshot!]
Dreggas
like I said…my head may explode.
Cassidy
I’m not right leaning, but oh well. I’ve been saying this for years as well. Hell, I’d be happy if we left and let them choose their own dictator.
Tax Analyst
Hey, whatever happened to that Chalabi fellow that was supposed to do that for us right after the Candy & Flowers parade?
Maybe we can option Bush & Cheney to Iraq. They’ve done such a bang-up job here at providing functional government and security that we really don’t need their services anymore. I think it would be rather greedy of us to insist they stick around all through 2008 when they could do so much more good on the ground in Iraq. They could give the Iraqi’s a first-hand demonstration in Country-Running.
I’m pretty sure we could muddle along just fine without their presence until our next election. We already have a line of sucession in place
Tax Analyst
Well, you ought to be thrilled then, because that is pretty much what those “American Officials” are talking about now.
Geez, that sure was a long trip to HOPEFULLY improve things enough to end up with things back to right about where we started, wasn’t it?
It’s not often you are able to take a BAD situation, sacrifice 3,500+ soldiers, thousands upon thousands of local citizens and untold billions of dollars and turn it into a WORSE situation – I wonder if there is going to be a “Mission Accomplished” ceremony at the end of this phase of the Operation?
Gus
So, let me see if I’ve got this right. If we leave before there’s stability, 4000 Americans will have died in vain. But if we can install a dictator, even a brutal, Saddam-like one who can at least put the lid on the civil war, it will have been worth it. Remind me why we took out Saddam.
Cassidy
I’m thrilled with any solution that brings my felllow Soldiers back. I’m thrilled with any sulution that keeps me from having to go back. I simply do not care about that country or its wellbeing.
Everything else, you said, you’re preaching to the choir.
demimondian
So why are you providing support to Lieberman and Miller, whose antics are calculated to leave the grunts over there?
Jay B.
It’s impossible to contemplate, really, how complete a failure the Bush administration has been. Seriously. In all your life, in the long study of history, there are few examples of just how inept, buffoonish, stubborn and ignorant these people are.
Of course, members of the opposition party (of whom I’ve been a lifelong member) are among the last few sentient people on Earth who would trust Alberto Gonzalez with MORE power, but I digress.
While the Democratic congress’ failures are obvious and many — all of them were simply extensions of the failures the administration had already manifested with full compliance of the GOP rubber stampers.
We live in a time when our government — with broad-based support in the media and ‘expert’ culture — fought a “preemptive” war on a faulty intelligence, presided while the greatest terror attack in US history happened, lorded over a stagnant economy that’s helped a select few, instruct political kommisars to overrule scientists, instituted a constellation of torture sites and a policy of forced coercion, spied on Americans, purged the civil service, debates evolutionary theory, ignores global warming, did next to nothing while an American city drown and claims that Executive Privilege trumps law.
I mean six months of shitty governance has made me doubt the Democratic Party completely — I can’t imagine how the GOP could stand six years of massive, epic failure with so few doubts at all.
Cassidy
I haven’t. I’ve never voted for either. The closest I came to voting for Lieberman was when he ran with Gore.
I may not agree with a lot of their positions, especially on being enablers for Bush, but that doesn’t mean I agree with their villification by the Democratic Party and its base. If anything I can repect them for being honest on where they stood. It may have been the wrong stance in my view, but they didn’t waver because of loss of favor. Also, something else that tends to be forgotten, Miller and Lieberman voted largely Dmocrat on almost every issue. So without the war, they’d still be members of the party awash with love and favor of the liberal base.
And don’t delude yourself. No one running for office on either side will be pulling us out any time soon. Anyone who says they will is just whoring for votes. Inevitably, the tune will change once they get into office and have to make compromises to their “plans”.
Jay B.
Please excuse the shitty grammar in that last post. Ignore it altogether actually. Goddamn pills….
David
Bush just gave al-Maliki the Kiss of Death. Said “he’s a good man” and “We support him”.
We all knows what happens to people when Bush speaks that way of them in public…
John S.
Except you’ve proven through your litany of posts that you have a right-wing authoritarian streak a mile long.
Cassidy
Call it what you want. Right of you does not equal right leaning. You are too blinded by rhetoric to see that.
David
Bah. Perhaps if I’d clicked the link and read the article instead of depending on CNN’s “developing story”…
Internet > television. And don’t ever forget it.
demimondian
Lieberman? Perhaps. Miller? No, sorry, Zell Miller went off the deep end before the war started.
And, again, I remind you that my objection to both of them is not their positions, but their lack of discipline. They both chose to directly betray the Democratic Party in order to further their own careers. Sorry — I don’t forget that kind of thing.
Tsulagi
Don’t fret for our man in Baghdad. You could nuke that fucker and like a cockroach he’d only burp.
Last I heard Chalabi was appointed to the job of selling The Surge to the average Mohammed on the streets and addressing their concerns. Meets regularly with Petraeus and Maliki to form strategy and tactics.
Wouldn’t it be just another cherry on top, if given current rumblings about Maliki and Back to the Future thinking, we push Maliki out and install Chalabi? Stay the course. You can never have too much success.
Cassidy
I think they felt betrayed by the Democratic Party. Zell made a huge mistake by appearin at the RNC, for sure, but the blame can’t be laid at their feet alone. They were sacrificial lambs for a party that was trying to distance itself from it’s enable status.
I don’t think career enhancement was the goal. If they had wanted that, they’d have gone along to get along and still be senior members of the party. They both made stands on principle. Flawed, sure, but respectable in and of itself.
demimondian
I don’t buy that.
In Miller’s case, he saw the D’s losing to the R’s in Georgia, and wanted to get the bennies of belonging to both parties back home. But, again, he wasn’t really cast out until after the RNC appearance. There’s NOBODY he can blame for that except Zell Miller.
In Lieberman’s case, the WHOLE FUCKING PARTY came out for him. Everyone in the Washington hierarchy showed up, Dean showed up, money flowed — and Lamont won anyway. So what does Lieberman do? Bolts the party, and wins on the basis of support from the Republicans.
rawshark
Saddam wasn’t going to let American or British companies work the oil fields. Ever.
John S.
Seriously, you are one of the best damn spoofs I have ever seen. That shit is gold.
Jake
He had WMD!He was BFF with bin Laden!He was a brutal dictator!His first name sounded a little like Sodomy!
Yeah, that’s it. Sodom & Gomorrah. Operation Fire n’ Brimstone. Boooyaaa and Yeeehaaaa!
Heh.
Dreggas
And not everyone left of you is a pinko lefty.
Aaron
Tim,
Sounds like someone’s on the side of rape rooms!
/sarcasm.
Sometimes I imagine tracking down some of those idiots who said that if you dont support invading Iraq its becouse your on the side of Saddam. and beating them.
But we can hold those responsible for this mess.
Accordingly, Bush, Cheney, Rice, Powell, Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld, and a host of others should be tried, convicted and executed for war crimes in the illegal invasion of Iraq and the resulting deaths of one million Iraqis (more or less).
PK
Why does it always have to be said “I didn’t like Saddam but…..”. The problem is that all conversation with republicans is at the level of 5yr olds.
Saddam was a dictator, but no worse than any of the other unelected lunatic leaders world over. In fact Mugabe and Kim jong are far far worse.
If you ask a majority of Americans if they could go back in time and have Iraq exactly the way it was before the invasion, my guess is the answer would be a resounding yes! I would say yes! And to hell with the rape rooms!
The truth is that George Bush has proved himself to be far worse for Iraq than Saddam. He may not be a cruel, sociopath like Saddam, but an ignorant, arrogant frat boy in charge of superpower will outdo a Saddam any day.
Saddam of 2001 was a stabalizing force in the Mideast. Bush has already destabalized the region and whatever happens next, whether we leave or stay, countless people will die and the region will be in turmoil for God only knows how many years. And yes that makes Saddam far far better for Iraq than the Americans. And does that mean that I was secretly in love with Saddam Hussain? I am sure everyone 10 and under, and republicans will answer that with a yes!
VidaLoca
Meanwhile, courtesy Juan (not John) Cole:
h/t Sadly, No!
Anne Laurie
It’s not often you are able to take a BAD situation, sacrifice 3,500+ soldiers, thousands upon thousands of local citizens and untold billions of dollars and turn it into a WORSE situation – I wonder if there is going to be a “Mission Accomplished” ceremony at the end of this phase of the Operation?
It’ll be held at the new Bush compound in Paraguay, and catered by former Saudi Ambassador Bandar Bush, because he has even better whores than Jeff Gannon in his phonebook-sized “little black book”.
Pb
I think that was the old contingency plan:
The Other Andrew
On the one hand, deciding that (the Iraqi) government is the problem, and thus getting rid of it, is classically conservative. On the other hand, it sort of clashes with the whole “We’re there to give them democracy!” thing. But that shark has already been jumped, I suppose.
If I were a grand conspiracy theorist, I’d say that Bush is using Iraq as an object lesson for the US. “Well, we tried to use gubment to solve their problems, but it di’n’t work! But now that the BOOTS ON THE GROUND are in charge, it’s a huge success! Let’s try it over here!” (Mind you, at least 30% of the population would go for this…)
srv
You know, Republicans really fell for the neocon line and got rid of the wrong guy.
Nobody killed more Iranians than Saddam. I guess that makes them a bunch of Iranian-Lovers.
TenguPhule
Says the one who thinks Iraqis should stay in Iraq and get tortured to death because ‘they need to pull themselves up by their bootstraps’.
When Cassidy can say the same thing in Iraq, outside of the Green Zone, without the US military guarding his back, maybe then he might have a little credibility.
myiq2xu
If we’re gonna give the Iraqis a government like that, can we have one too?
Cassidy
I was at FOB Falcon and patrolled the Al Dora area. Do a little research, then you can retract your statement.
Zifnab
Wait, did you know Danial Gonzales of the 4th Infantry Division? We went to high school together.
TenguPhule
When Cassidy can say the same thing in Iraq, outside of the Green Zone, without the US military guarding his back, maybe then he might have a little credibility.
Still time to earn some credibility, Cassidy.
Cassidy
I was in 3rd ID. 4th ID replaced us.
Flashy display of ignorance you’ve shown. Check a map or two. Al Dora is not inside the International Zone.
TenguPhule
When Cassidy can say the same thing in Iraq, outside of the Green Zone, without the US military guarding his back, maybe then he might have a little credibility.
Still no Credibility from Cassidy. Keep sleeping tight with the US military watching your back while the Iraqis you despise are dragged out of their beds and tortured to death.