Hillary Rodham Clinton’s campaign opposes Michigan’s plan to give fewer delegates to her and more to rival Barack Obama, a campaign spokesman said Thursday.
The Democratic National Committee stripped Michigan and Florida of their convention delegates for holding their primaries before Feb. 5. Both are looking for compromises that would get their delegates seated.
Michigan Democrats on Wednesday voted to back a plan that would give Clinton 69 delegates — four fewer than the 73 she gained by winning the state’s Jan. 15 primary. Obama would get 59 pledged delegates even though he took his name off the ballot, forcing his supporters to vote for Uncommitted.
The Clinton campaign can take their bullshit about Florida and Michigan and stick it you-know-where.
And yes, my title is sarcasm.
*** Update ***
Paul Krugman weighs in, and the nastiness is all the fault of Obama supporters and Obama. God, we really are terrible people for beating Hillary this primary.
nightjar
I saw crazy ass Wolfson on Hardball, blustering about how they’d only accept MI FL vote as is and on to the convention fighting all the way. Every day they look more and more like a cult with their own rules and fuck every body else with a rusty pitchfork. My anger is rapidly turning to pity at this farce.
John Cole
I saw Wolfson on Hardball too, then I watched Matthews mock him for the rest of the hour referring to him as a Japanese soldier after WWII was over but who fought on for thirty more years.
It is sad when Matthews is mocking you AND making sense.
Rick Taylor
It’s looking like this is going on into June. Even if the super-delegates declare, the Clinton campaign won’t accept that Obama’s one if he gets 2025 delegates; now it’s 2209. And it’s looking like Dean is going to defer any decision to the rules committee on May 31. Obama agreed to play by the rules the DNC set up, you’d think they’d have his back now when Hillary attempts to use that against them. What a spineless party.
Just remember, that everything she’s doing is stoking a divisive narrative that will further embitter her supporters and make it that much harder to unite against McCain (I can’t support a candidate who disenfranchised two states, Obama only one because of the black vote, working white class voters don’t support him). And she’s doing it because. . . I don’t even know; even she must know she can’t win. It looks like pure ego by now. I can’t feel pity under the circumstances.
Suicidal Zebra
Speaking as a confused Brit, does anyone have a concise link detailing what happened in MI and FL to get them thrown out of the nomination process?
AkaDad
There’s a good reason. It’s because SHUT UP, that’s why.
John S.
Oh, it’s really quite simple.
The DNC established a pecking order of which states get to have their primaries first. MI and FL decided to move their primaries up to dates that were earlier than they were allowed to, and in violation of DNC rules. The DNC warned them that doing so would cause them to be stripped of their delegates, and they did it anyway.
End of story.
nightjar
I know the exit polls say there’s a problem with her people not voting for Obama, yet national polls stay pretty much even with Mccain. So I wonder how many will actually not vote or vote for Mccain. HC say’s she will work hard for the nominee which the world knows will be Obama. It had better be really, really hard for her to salvage any credibility for herself.
Keith
Wow, her similarities to Bush never end. Now the refusal to compromise while blaming others for an agreement not being made. Just chock full of heady goodness.
nightjar
This should help
Ted
Further elaborating for the confused Brit: the DNC originally took a firm position that if they allowed MI and FL to get away with it, other states would want their primaries held earlier as well, so they could exert more influence in the beginning of the process. States would leap-frog each other further and further back prior to the convention, and we’d eventually be starting the Dem primaries a year or more before the nomination.
Now the DNC’s wimping out and are going to seat those delegates anyway.
nightjar
Once again.
Suicidal Zebra
Thanks John.
At the risk of heresy, isn’t that a rather stupid way to run a nomination process on the part of the DNC, and isn’t stripping them of all their delegates more than a little harsh? (though I can agree with them following through on the proscribed sanctions given a breach of the rules).
And that aside, why the hell would MI and FL choose to bring their primaries forward, that’s surely just asking for trouble? Why weren’t voters up in arms over the local parties attempt to sidestep the national ruleset and hence cause their disenfranchisement?
merrinc
If I understand this, the reason she won’t accept any compromise is because her campaign has been finagling behind the scenes to grab up a bunch of those uncommitted MI delegates too.
And at this point, I think we can safely assume that Team Clinton just does not play well with others.
Just Some Fuckhead Hard-Working White Clinton Supporter
I is glad her is fiting so hard for mah vote to be herd. Amurka is aint reddy fer a nig muslin presnit, no matter how finaly woven his lies are.
GO !! hillary)8!! We luv u!!!!
Suicidal Zebra - slightly less confused
Ah, thanks Ted and Nightjar, that makes sense.
Jake
Methinks he doth protest too much. Olbermann just said Wolfson is shopping around for a book deal. I think people are starting to head for the liferafts.
Ted
It’s the way both parties run it, if I recall correctly. Anyway, I believe the date change was pushed through a Republican controlled FL state congress, but over little or no objection on the part of the minority Dems.
Also, anyone know off-hand if the Republican nomination delegates were also stripped from FL and MI? States have the primaries for both parties on the same day, but I can’t recall if the RNC allowed the date change in those two states while the DNC didn’t.
Karmakin
nightjar:If you look at the numbers as a whole, the conclusion really is one of two things.
Either those problems with Obama reaching out to Clinton supporters or false, or that Obama is kicking serious ass in getting who would normally be McCain supporters to vote for him.
My guess is actually the second, but quite frankly, either argument is a win for Obama.
John S.
Yes. Many folks have issues with Iowa and New Hampshire’s special status (except mostly people from those states). But those are the rules.
I thought so. They probably should have just penalized them by seating half the delegates (like the GOP did). The DNC wanted to send a message to prevent the leapfrogging Ted mentioned.
Because they wanted to ‘matter’ and didn’t care if they were penalized for it. One Florida representative said that he would rather our state matter than have delegates. Little did they know how the primaries would go. They gambled and they lost.
Many were. But there were also many that agreed they would rather ‘matter’ than have delegates. They chise poorly, too. At this point, whining about what went down is just sour grapes or pure political posturing.
John S.
Yes, but slightly less Draconian. They took away half.
Rick Taylor
There’s nothing wrong with the DNC seating the delegates, so long as it’s done in a manner that doesn’t effect the outcome of the election. The real penalty in the first place wasn’t the delegate penalty; it was the agreement of all the candidates not to campaign in those states. The states were denied the very thing they tried to acquire by holding the early primaries, the campaigning and attention of the candidates. But of course the only way the candidates would agree to this was if the contests were unsanctioned, so the results wouldn’t effect the outcome of the election. Everyone expected the delegates to be seated after the nominee was chosen. What they didn’t count on was Clinton’s campaign using all this to her advantage, promoting the theme that the voters in Florida and Michigan were disenfranchised, and that they had to be counted or Obama’s election would not be legitimate. If Hillary was really concerned about those delegates being seated, she could make it happen overnight, just by dropping out of an election she has no chance of winning. Of course if they were seated in a way that gave Hillary the election, the DNC would have no power, and the states would move their primaries where-ever they pleased, passing each other until they were in December or November. Cadidates would be forced to campaign, as any decision by the DNC to sanction a primary could not be taken seriously.
Ted
Ah, thanks.
demkat620
I don’t think she has accepted yet that she can’t win. I think the thing that is holding her up is that she simply can’t believe the democrats aren’t so scared of losing again that they won’t do everything she is telling them to.
She’s used to democrats doing whatever Bill tells them to.
Just Some Fuckhead Hard-Working White Clinton Supporter
She is wiping the raunchy ejaculate of her spent campaign on America’s fine blue dress. Which means this thing is almost over.
Ted
True. But if they don’t affect the election, it’s the same as if they weren’t seated at all, right? Unless there’s some other benefit those two states get from having those delegates seated that I’m not familiar with (quite possible; I never knew about most of this stuff before this year).
Excellent summarization of the core issue.
scrutinizer
The minimum punishment under the rules was to have only 50% of their delegates stripped, but the rules made provision for harsher punishment. Because MI and FL refused repeated attempts at negotiated settlements, the Rules and Bylaws committee voted to apply the most draconian sanction of not seating any of the MI and FL delegates. Some of Hillary’s advisors (Ickes, for example), voted for these sanctions while they were on RAB.
John S.
She only cares because it benefits her. We all know damn well that if she were winning, she wouldn’t have much to say about it.
Ted
But, continuing your metaphor, what comes after that? Isn’t that the end? ;)
Rick Taylor
The DNC has legitimate reasons for wanting to have some control of the order of the primaries. For one thing, if a large state like Florida which already has a huge number of delegates goes first (as they attempted to), they’ll have an even more disproportionate effect on the outcome of the election than the first state usually does. Plus in campaigning in a large state, money and advertisements are a necessity. In small states, less well financed candidates have a better chance of getting their message out by getting out and talking to the people, so it’s more Democratic.
There are good arguments for mixing up how the order of primaries occur, but it’s only possible if the DNC is able to order the primaries in the first place. Florida and Michigan literally put their primaries in the front of the calendar before everyone else, and dared the DNC to do anything about. The DNC could have ignored them, and then we could have just gone with anarchy, states setting their primaries whenever they want, I suppose.
And the penalty of stripping all the delegates was necessary because the real penalty wasn’t stripping the delegates. The states were fine with loosing their delegates in return for getting to go first. The real penalty was the candidates agreement not to campaign in those states, which took away the very thing they were trying to get by holding early primaries: attention. But the only way you can ask the candidates not to campaign in those states is if it’s understood those primaries won’t effect the outcome of the election.
Obama cooperated with the DNC in good faith. He didn’t campaign in the two states, and even removed his name from the ballot in MIchigan. If they now turned around and said, oh, sorry, seeing as Clinton needs these states to win we’re going to count them after all, tough luck for you, it would be a travesty. But that’s what Clinton’s campaign is baldly arguing for; they’ve acted in bad faith. Her campaign didn’t raise a peep of protest to the DNC’s decision (and some of her chief surrogates like Ickes actually participated in penalizing the states). She only suddenly found her deep seated concern with enfranchising the voters after the elections where held, and she realized she needed the resulting delegates to have a chance of winning.
scrutinizer
There are other reasons why the delegates should be seated, if it doesn’t affect the nomination. They would be able to participate in drafting and voting on the party platform, and party rules, for example.
Jake
I’m watching the interview of Obama with Blitzer (the moron) from this afternoon. Man he put the smack down on Romney. Anyone else catch that?
Genine
It’s looking like this is going on into June. Even if the super-delegates declare, the Clinton campaign won’t accept that Obama’s one if he gets 2025 delegates; now it’s 2209. And it’s looking like Dean is going to defer any decision to the rules committee on May 31. Obama agreed to play by the rules the DNC set up, you’d think they’d have his back now when Hillary attempts to use that against them. What a spineless party.
ThymeZone
What strikes me today is that the Clinton machine is talking about the popular vote impact of Puerto Rico.
Now, they have been beating the drum about 50 states, of which about 20 are the apparently “important” or “big” ones …. the other ones being the ones where Obama has won, as near as I can figure …. so ….
Which category of “important states” does Puerto Rico fit into?
How about Canada? Isn’t Canada a state?
This new geogrpahy is confusing me.
Soylent Green
All Hillary needs to win the nomination is another Friedman Unit or two.
If the remaining contests go as expected, and the superdelegates move en masse to Obama in the next two or three weeks, won’t that put him well over the top? A month from now he could say, “What the hell, Hillary, let’s just seat MI and FL as voted.” That would be a great outcome, give her all of MI and her share of FL and he still wins.
Just Some Fuckhead Hard-Working White Clinton Supporter
It’s not over until the cigars are pulled out.
Dug Jay
A really good post with many fine comments. Taken together, all of this should help enormously in bringing all of the Clinton supporters together behind Obama for a united fight against McCain in the November election. Good job, folks.
scrutinizer
I give you the SBVT attack on John Kerry, and how the party jumped to the defense of the nominee.
John S.
I realize we are all saying the same thing, but I think for Obligatory Toll ProtectionTM it needs to be said that there are times when what may seem like groupthink is simply a matter of stating the facts.
Is water wet? Yes, yes it is.
scrutinizer
Well, geez, TZ, they have all those valuable electoral vo—
Oh, wait.
nightjar
yea, that was cool. I watched a few minutes of it, just long enough to conclude the guy will wipe the floor with MCcain.
John S.
I noticed that today on NPR, TZ.
They played a clip of Hillary saying that WV was going to be a ‘real test’ for her and Obama, and that for too long the Democratic party has handed states like that to the GOP. And while that is true…
Are you fucking kidding me?
Her campaign has argued for months that states like SC, VA, CO and too many others to remember don’t count for whatever arbitrary reason. And now she’s concerned about WV?? Seriously?
Does that pass anyone’s bullshit test?
Ted
While a McCain presidency would be extremely bad, it’s for that very reason I could give a shit less who Clinton supporters vote for in November. Why? Because if their unwillingness to support the Dem nominee leads them to not vote or vote for McCain, despite what that means for the country, then we’ll all know precisely who to blame for it. They’ll be the Nader voters of ’08. You don’t have to like Obama supporters to be able to see the difference between an Obama presidency and a McCain one. If you see that difference, and still won’t vote for the nominee (Obama), then you’re not even a Democrat.
So, STFU.
Just Some Fuckhead Hard-Working White Clinton Supporter
Translation: “You cursed brat! Look what you’ve done! I’m melting- melting! Oh what a world, what a world. Who would have thought a good little girl like you could destroy my beautiful wickedness…”
Incertus
This is the last flurry of the campaign. The outrage over Clinton’s (intentional or unintentional) racist statement is going to scare some supers off the fence between now and Oregon, and then it won’t matter what happens in Michigan and Florida–which was the whole point. As long as they’re not instrumental in putting either candidate over the top, I’m fine with seating them as-is.
nightjar
Thanks Dug Jay. We always await with baited breath your all important appraisals. Now Go fuck yourself.
Rick Taylor
That is it in a nutshell. Though don’t waste your time arguing with a Hillary supporter that she “agreed” with the rules. She and they will tell you that just because she agreed not to participate in the election, and just because she didn’t raise a peep of protest of the DNC decision and even wrote a nice little press release about the importance of the DNC calendar, that doesn’t mean she can’t push to claim the delegates from the election she didn’t participate in.
Just Some Fuckhead Hard-Working White Clinton Supporter
More importantly, PR is home to all those hard-working whi–
Hmm.
John Cole
It is ok to say it, Rick, you don’t have to prance around it.
She is a liar. Hillary is a liar. She will lie about anything, so long as it helps her in the short-term. Long-term fall-out, well, she will just construct new short-term lies and hope we forget what she said the last time.
It is the Clinton way, and there really is no way to deny that at this point. What is sad is that her supporters seem to think this is a sign of strength, and it shows she is a fighter? Worse, they are so beaten down after all these years of GOP rule that they think this is a qualification for office- because it shows she is tough and “knows how DC works.”
It is sick and pathetic and awful and sad.
Rick Taylor
Why wait until Oregon? If Clinton was running a dignified campaign on the issues, and turning some fire on McCain, that would be one thing. But she’s attacking the legitimacy of the nomination process itself, and she’s making naked racially divisive appeals. And it’s not at all clear when they make their decision she’ll even listen; it’s going to be tough for Obama to get 2209 delegates after all.
Ted
lol. Also, John, let me just say how awesome it is that you’re phone-banking. That is more work and dedication to a candidate than I have *ever* done, and I’m impressed. When I think of myself as a political junkie who’s extremely dedicated, I remind myself that all I do is give money, and there are way more dedicated people out there.
flyerhawk
I have a resolution to the plan. Give Hillary the as-is delegate counts in Michigan and Florida. She can have her 73 delegates to Obama’s zero in Michigan and her 40 delegate win in Florida.
All she has to do is agree to void all superdelegate votes. If all we are interested in is the will of the people and being democratic then I can’t see how this could possibly be bad. It would give Hillary a 115 delegate swing.
It’s a win-win for her. Lots of delegates and the will of the people reigns supreme.
Rick Taylor
*nods*
Alright John, it’s true. She really is a l . .. . l . . . ..l . .. … . .
LIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!! She’d say anything to win if she could get away with it. She’s a liar liar liar liar liar liar liar!!!!
*sniffles*
Thanks. . .. I feel better now.
Actually, seriously, when i listen to her speak now, its weird realizing I can’t trust a word she says. I was listening to her talking about ending the war in Iraq, and it all sounded nice, but it didn’t mean a thing to me. She’s pushed a meaningless gas tax holiday, full well knowing it wouldn’t do a damn thing. So maybe she really is planning to end the war, and maybe she’s just saying that because that’s what she has to do to win the primary and the votes of naive people like me who don’t understand how we need a long term presence in Iraq; I honestly have no idea one way or the other. Of course politicians aren’t renowned for their honesty, but she’s taken it to a pathological degree.
Just Some Fuckhead Hard-Working White Clinton Supporter
Because after Oregon it will no longer be possible for her to get more pledged delegates than Obama. Mathematically, she has virtually no chance to ovetake him now in a contest where the delegates are proportionally allocated but after Oregon it won’t be possible at all.
At that point, all the superdelegates who are waiting to endorse the pledged delegate leader will do so. Witnessing the math skills of the HRC folks so far, I don’t blame them for waiting. I can almost hear the Clintards wailing that she was going to win the rest of the contests by 70 points if they were to move against her now.
As is, they’ll probably still claim she was in position to win the ones after Oregon with 140% of the vote..
cleek
exactly. it’s all about the short-term fight: all tactics, no strategy. argue, deny, bullshit, hand-wave, confuse, lie, and whine until she owns the conversation because everybody else has thrown their hands up and walked away.
Cain
I’m preparing my vote right now… I wish I could get a hillary sticker and put a big X on it and paste it to my ballot envelope.
cain
r€nato
gee, that reminds me of somebody…
cleek
you’re forgetting one important point: delegates, even “pledged” delegates, can change their mind.
she can keep up the fight literally until the delegates at the convention cast their votes.
flyerhawk
It would appear that the Hillary supporters over at TL are unimpressed with my proposal. It would seem that stripping the superdelegates of their supervotes is somehow vote-stealing and undemocratic. Who knew?
Just Some Fuckhead Hard-Working White Clinton Supporter
I drive old people to the polling stations*
*This year I drove them to the wrong polling stations
flyerhawk
Cleek,
That won’t happen. She can talk the talk but the moment he officially reaches the magic number it’s all over for Hillary.
She would be CRUCIFIED if she kept fighting and she would be done in the Democratic Party.
Suicidal Zebra
Okay…
Given that HRC has pretty much lost now, all bar the shouting at least, and one assumes that the most vehement Clinton supporters are in fact right and Obama can’t win in November, why aren’t they counselling their candidate to pull out now? Drawing out the fight to the very last roll of the dice simply can’t do anything to help her in 4 years – when presumably they think she would be facing a weak field of nominees and an incumbent McCain in Nov. 2012 (*shudder*) – and may in fact greatly hinder her chances if she becomes a symbol for Democratic infighting.
I guess that Hillary supporters don’t particularly like entertaining the idea that she doesn’t have a hope in hell of winning the nomination, and so the idea of pulling out and appearing the ‘bigger man’ would be unpalatable. But even so, you get the impression that they simply don’t believe their own rhetoric that Obama can’t win in November and instead are worried that her next chance will be as late as 2016; what they only want is Hillary, and if not her by hook or by crook then the party can go off themselves.
– Hence the threats to stay indoors, vote McCain or even actively campaign for him.
Ted
I drive old people to the polling stations*
Also highly commendable work.
*This year I drove them to the wrong polling stations
I’m sure that was just an accident, and had nothing to do with polling demographics in this primary. :)
Chuck Butcher
The deal with MI/FL was that it was an egregious violation with no attempt by the responsible party, the FL State Party and MI State Party to comply. It was an across the board violation.
The outside benefit of being seated is the rubbing shoulders, partying, and connections available to seated delegates rather than visitors. Much of what I do would be enhanced by attendance, I can neither afford it or the time and the Democratic Party has already gotten enough of both from me. I would also have to campaign to be a delegate and that is time and money.
DNC’s intention was to seat the delegates after the vote if seating was not resolved. Hillary is a POS in this regard whatever else there is about her. She has behaved as though this was DNC’s or Obama’s fault, quite falsely and done harm to DNC. You can bet that warmed Terry McAuliff’s heart, he’s another POS.
Incertus
She can, but once Obama gets past the magic number, both the party big dogs and the media will start giving her the Ron Paul treatment.
cleek
we’ll see
wasabi gasp
Its despicable that Obama’s going to force Clinton to run as an Independent. It shouldn’t have to be this way. He’s a disgrace to the Party.
It is sick and pathetic and awful and sad.
r€nato
Well, I’m not telling you anything you dont’ already know, but they will not be happy with any solution which does not give Hillary the lead.
The sense of entitlement is astonishing.
Rick Taylor
I’ve seen your posts over there, flyerhawk. I’m impressed with your patience. I don’t have the heart to explain to intelligent people things that they could clearly figure out for themselves if they had the inclination. When you’re reduced to explaining to Jeralyn that giving Clinton 73 delegates and giving Obama 0 is unfair, because he wasn’t on the ballot in an unsanctioned primary, and even if we bought th argument it was his fault, it’s still completely contradicts the rational of your original stand that the actions of state officials in MIchigan are not the peoples fault and they shouldn’t be penalized, and you’re explaining this to a highly intelligent lawyer . .. well, I’m sorry John, but we’re going to say Hillary is a liar, then so is she.
Rick Taylor
Just to add, I love the part where she characterizes any compromise solution that awards Obama any delegates in Michigan as “vote-stealing” by Obama. That is rich.
Just Some Fuckhead Hard-Working White Clinton Supporter
I got a plan to bring us all together. The night Obama accepts the nomination I’m going to invite all the HRC supporters (the ones who didn’t spontaneously combust already) to a Big Ass Hillary Costume Party (where we wear brightly colored pantsuits generously padded around the thighs and buttocks.)
We’re going to dance are our fannies off to disco music all night. Then I’m going to break out some kickass organic pot and we’re going to get totally fucking lit up, put on some Helen Reddy and maybe a little Charlene and just work it out.
After a lot of screaming and hugging and crying, we’re all going to walk out of there together ready to battle McCain.
Rick Taylor
You have a point there. Our party is certainly renowned for it’s fearsomeness when crossed. Why when Hillary came out and baldly called for Michigan to be seated as is, in a naked power grab and in complete defiance of the DNC’s original decision, they ummm. . .said, the rules committee would look into it May 31. Ummm, but when she started pushing racial division, baldly arguing the nomination should go to the candidate who had the white working class vote, and quoting false figures to bolster this, all when she had no chance of winning, why, look what happened! A. . . few super delegates declared for Obama. Whew, that was fierce. Or if you need more examples, look what happened to Liebermann! Why after running as an independent, he’s openly endorsed the Republican nominee for President and is helping him campaign, and our ferocious Democrats. . um,. . assured him his committee chairmanship was in no danger whatsoever. *ahem*
Yes, I’m sure the Democrats will absolutely crucify Hillary Clinton if she continues doing . . what she’s pretty much been doing for weeks.
flyerhawk
Rick,
What amazes me is that they don’t even hide their hypocrisy in some token argument.
The Grand Panjandrum
Yeah, all 20 of us commenting here tonight are going to swing the election.
A vicious(but delicious) criticism of the Clinton campaign:
Ouch.
wasabi gasp
It never ends!
/pulling hair out
.
Rick Taylor
Well they do, but the token arguments are so threadbare as to be laughable. No one forced Obama to remove his name from the ballot, he did that on his own, to avoid the embarrassment of loosing! It was a perfectly good election in Florida; why Obama campaigned there and HIllary didn’t! It’s Obama’s fault we haven’t revotes, so tough if he doesn’t like the results. Hillary never agreed the primaries in Michigan and Florida wouldn’t count! I’ve been reading there long enough I can parrot them now.
Joe Max
Balloon Juice, the anti-Hillary choice!
“All bash Hillary, all the time!”
For Bog’s sake, John. If what you believe is going to happen, happens – Obama is the nominee – then he’s going to need Clinton’s supporters to beat McCain. Is utterly alienating them, by in effect calling them stupid, every day, twice a day, with extra snide and snark, the way to unify the party to win in November?
Clinton’s supporters are not going to repudiate her the way you think she deserves. Ever. They’re not going to wake up the day after Obama takes the nomination and say, “Wow, what a complete and utter idiot I was! I guess I deserve being raked over the coals (by Cole?) and laughed at by Obama supporters as they point and chortle and say, ‘we told you so – nyah nyah nyah!’ So I’ll just humbly accept my utter worthlessness as a judge of political candidates as well as a human being, abase myself and pull the lever for Obama to expedite my shame!”
Right. And I fart aerodynamic pigs.
You go on and on without pause or let about the damage Clinton is doing to the Democratic Party, John. Have a look in the mirror.
cleek
it’s on
crw
Oh come on. Don’t you guys see. The Obama Insurgency is in its last throes. The Clinton campaign is turning the corner. They just have to stay the course and all will be well.
John Cole
They could stop being stupid. That is an option.
This is a basic sense of fairness at play here. There was an agreement that this shit would not count, and now they are not only forcing the issue, but lying the entire way.
Just Some Fuckhead Hard-Working White Clinton Supporter
You know it, boi.
nightjar
This an intra party war that Clinton and her supporters started and continue in full gusto with every imaginable corrupt demand for votes and delegates she’s not entitled to, and round the clock racial politicking that would make Strom Thurmond wince. So please, come back when she and her supporters decide to look in the mirror themselves and realize they’ve gone fully insane. Till then don’t come around with concern trolling cause it falls on deaf ears. We like what the BJ host has to say and the way he says it.
Richard Bottoms
Heh.
demimondian
No, at this point, Clinton needs to quit. Fortunately, the one thing she could have done to truly split the party has been forestalled, by virtue of her having become a joke instead of a candidate — her campaign manager is openly being mocked on the air for his pretensions of victory, for instance.
People will stand for a lot of things, but they won’t stand for being asked to align with a joke.
Just Some Fuckhead Hard-Working White Clinton Supporter
John. John.. just let him work out his anger. All you need to do is be right there when this thing is all over and he needs a hug and someone he respects to say “Hey, you think you had it bad, I voted for the Dumbest Man On Earth – Twice!”
CBD
I think this has already been countered quite well by another here.
scrutinizer
Strom Thurmond laughs at your comment. I grew up in the South. I remember guys like Maddox, Thurmond, and Wallace. What the Clinton campaign is pulling is nothing compared to what those guys did. I’m not defending her, I’m just saying don’t trivialize how truly evil those guys were.
John S.
Enough of this bullshit – I get tired of reading it.
Of course Obama is going to need Clinton’s supporters to win in November. That’s a given. But pinning the failing chances of the Democrats on Obama and his supporters for not being nice enough is absurd.
Calling Hillary out for her constant bullshit is good for the party. Calling her supporters out for their flawed reasoning and continuing support of a deeply flawed candidates is good for the party.
What is hurting the party right now is her and her supporters. Period. And when Obama is facing McCain in November, if her and her supporters want to stay home and pout or pull the lever for McCain – then go right fucking ahead. That will be their choice to continue hurting the party’s chances of success and nobody else’s.
Bush fucked McCain over royally in 2000, and McCain supporters vowed not to vote for Bush. In November, they did anyway. Because even if Republican leaders are good at fucking up the party, Republicans know how to do what’s best for the party. Democrats should do likewise and look at the bigger picture.
People need to fucking grow up and take responsibility for their own actions and quit blaming others for ‘forcing’ them to do something.
Josh
Don’t know if this was the LLIIAARRRRR Rick Taylor was referring to, but damn it’s appropriate
Couldn’t have said it better myself…
jake
Well, you know how those non-hardworking, non-white, college edjumacated people are.
He’ll probably hock the stolen votes so he can buy crack and orange juice.
MDee
Yeah, they really tore Lieberman a new one when he endorsed and is actively campaign for McCain. Stripped him of all his committee assignments and everything.
Yep, if there is one group in this world I would never want to rely on to have my back it’s the “leadership” of the Democratic Party. I’d trust a pack of wild hyenas before I’d trust those sniveling self-serving cowards.
Just Some Fuckhead Hard-Working White Clinton Supporter
No, what is hurting the party right now are those kinds of sexist remarks.
nightjar
Well actually Thurmond went a long way to reform himself where others didn’t as did Wallace. But your point is taken..
Sasha
I don’t mind them doing it, so long as it’s after a nominee is essentially declared (almost certainly Obama at this point). The point of the punishment was to prevent the wayward states from having a say on who would be the nominee. If a nominee is recognized before the convention, the point’s been made and MI/FL will have lost out on weighing in.
Just Some Fuckhead Hard-Working White Clinton Supporter
For Cleek..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpRV5ufwquQ
Rick Taylor
Actually, the point of the punishment was to get all the candidates to agree not to campaign or participate in the primaries, so the states wouldn’t be rewarded for their behavior. And the only way that could happen was if the candidates could be confident the unsanctioned primaries would not produce delegates.
Notorious P.A.T.
I love people who blame others for the problems they themsevles cause.
Hillary got slightly more votes in Michigan than “undecided” and she thinks she deserves all its deletates? Sheesh.
How dare you say that about someone who dodged sniper fire to broker peace in Northern Ireland.
nightjar
Just for the record, my analogy of HC with Strom Thurmond was a poor one, and I withdraw it and apologize. The rest of my comment, I stand by.
Genine
Now, there’s some unity, peace and brother/sisterhood!
Hillary supporters would be a sad bunch if they do not do their part to defeat McCain in the fall. Unless they really did love the past 8 years and want more of the same. I’ve heard Clinton supporters say how mean Obama supporters have been to them. I’m sure some have. But I’ve never seen anything near the viciousness that seems to come from Hillary supporters.
But even through all of that, and the woman herself, I was willing to hold my nose and deal with nausea if she was the nominee to vote for her. Because if I truly cared about the state of the nation, that is what I have to do.
Just Some Fuckhead Hard-Working White Clinton Supporter
You know why we don’t like you, Eyeball??!? Cuz you are a big fat liar!
madlulz
r€nato
…commonly referred to as, ‘projection’.
I have watched the right-wing guzzle the kool-aid for the past 8 years and become fairly convinced it’s an exclusive trait of the right.
How disappointing to watch the Hillary-bots do the exact same thing. It is EXACTLY like trying to argue with a Free Republitard or Rat Stater.
Sorry to disappoint you John, after you came over to our side; it looks like ideological blindness is not an exclusive trait of the GOP any longer. Perhaps it never was.
John Cole
Just want to point out that the Clinton campaign is now being openly mocked by the Daily Show on a nightly basis.
Well done, Hillary.
Shouldn’t we be shitting on Bush and McCain?
incontrolados
Dont’t trust me, but wingnut radio is finally playing Obama’s voice — first time — and even in their news reports.
They’ve conceeded.
chopper
exactly. if indeed we need these people to come to the defense of obama the democratic nominee in the general, we first need to teach them reasoning and basic logic. don’t want them making the democratic party look even dumber than it already does.
incontrolados
Crap, I forgot to flip Jen off.
FY Jen.
MDee
This is such an absolute load of horseshit. If anyone and I mean anyone is going to decide whether or not they support a candidate based on what some fartknockers (and I proudly count myself among them) write on a blog they are too stupid to vote. Seriously. They should just fucking pack it in.
I don’t think any worse of Clinton because of the shit her supporters spew. It’s the shit she spews that means something to this voter.
Read my type: Coddling. Clinton’s. upset. supporters. is. not. my. fucking. job.
In fact, I’d be pissed off if anyone in the opposition camp tried to mollify me after my candidate tanked. It’s condescending and I’ve seen bits if this unity (we have to attract her voters and be nice now for the party) shit already. It’s cringeworthy to see people go from “fuck her” to “she’s was a really smart and terrific opponent” within a week. It’s a false sincerity that is maddening.
I’m not going to pretend to like Clinton for the sake of some people I’ve never met and will likely never meet. They don’t need me to hold their hand while the work through the shit we all work through when things don’t go our way. It doesn’t mean I’m going to slam her mercilessly. But I’m not going to hold my tongue when she pisses me off. Unity is a two-way street and I haven’t been hearing anything that resembles unity from her camp.
You need to look to the Obama campaign for this unity effort. It’s their job to attract and mollify her voters. He seems to be doing everything he can in that regards but the real work won’t be able to start until she leaves the stage. And that doesn’t appear to be anytime soon. Until that time, I’ll say whatever I damn well please.
r€nato
same here. Any Hillary supporter who really is willing to help John McCain select the next two (or more) SC justices… is worse than a Florida Nader voter in 2000.
For now, I’m going to put this down to the kind of mentality displayed by spoiled children who find out they aren’t going to get the 2008 BMW for their 16th birthday, just a 5 year old Acura. They’ll scream and cry and carry on, but eventually they’ll get over it and get on with things.
Remember, a year ago the fundies supposedly were never going to vote for McCain and would split off to a third party candidate. Don’t hear about that much now, do we?
drag0n
Chill.
They are just keeping the headlines going and trying to raise some cash to pay for their debts. McCain is irrelevent and once the Kleig’s turn on him. He is going to be toasted.
Tim Fuller
Looks like I’ve got my first bona fide Youtube hit!
Hillary – Going Out of Business
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XH0oJzT9WIg
52 seconds of pure bliss.
Enjoy.
r€nato
He’s going to go down faster than Larry Craig in a bathroom stall.
Thank you, thank you, I’m here all week, try the veal, make sure to tip the waitresses.
Delia
I just checked on the maniacs at No Quarter. They’re all convinced that Obama’s been committing voter fraud right and left and they’re having conniptions and sending emails to all their dear friends and relations about it. I almost feel like taking up a collection for them to send them all our old tinfoil in case they run out of hats.
Just Some Fuckhead Hard-Working White Clinton Supporter
Awesome soundtrack choice. (I’m a huge DanFan.)
r€nato
*sigh* this is really, really sad.
The Other Steve
You all need some cheering up.
I declare this the soundtrack of the evening!
Just Some Fuckhead Hard-Working White Clinton Supporter
That ain’t fast.. that’s slow and deliciously.
McCain’s going down faster than Republican Congressman Mark Foley on a prematurely-ejaculating teenage boy. THAT’S fast.
nightjar
It’s been so long since doing that, I might have forgot how.
Naw, like riding a bike.
Just Some Fuckhead Hard-Working White Clinton Supporter
Yoohoo, Cleeks…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jK3remdEFlc
Soylent Green
Crazy people usually believe themselves to be the only sane ones.
Cain
Jeezus, this organic brand is just everywhere. WTF.. is there a difference between normal pot and organic? I mean it’s not like it’s grown in some field with fertilizers and other shit..
Now.. where can I score some? :)
cain
funfunfun
ohhhhhh-k, now you’re starting to sound sort of warbloggery.
The Other Steve
Hillary’s new theme song?
The Other Steve
It’s sad that Hillary doesn’t care about the Michigan voters enough to let them be seated at the convention.
Bob In Pacifica
Suicidal Zebra, if Hillary stops acting the ass and admits she’s lost and doesn’t try to sabotage the Democratic Party anymore Obama will win. Our country is falling into the big black hole of recession/depression, the Bush class war has bankrupted the country, we are neck-deep in two foreign wars (with a third one on the way) that nobody but the oil companies want, and everyone hates the oil companies. In special elections to fill empty seats the most Republican congressional districts are falling to Democrats. In short, even the inherent racism of America wouldn’t stop Obama from becoming President–if Clinton wouldn’t keep fucking up things.
There are two theories, the obvious is that she can’t stop. As Wil Wheaton describes her, the psychotic ex-girlfriend who won’t let go. Then there’s the 2012 theory, but she’ll be 64 by then and she’s going to be pretty much despised by then anyway if she keeps this up, and who knows what’s going to be left of the Democratic Party by then?
My theory is that the Clintons have always had more allegiance to the DLC types, the big-money investors who diversified and bought the Democrats like they already owned the Republicans. Hell, look how Chelsea is making her money, running a hedge fund. So instead of Hillary being the crazy, power-driven candidate, she’s just a toiler for the monied class who see Obama as their least desirable option. If they can’t have McCain, they’ll take Hillary. If Hillary can’t win, she needs to destroy Obama so McCain can win. This theory explains her inexplicable cozying to McCain (remember the Commander-in-Chief bullshit?) and her neverending “oppo research” eruptions, as well as her neverending campaign.
Clinton has shown absolutely no allegiance to the Party because she has none. Her allegiance is to the permanent government. That is, the ruling class.
Mary
Nope. Hillary is all about Muse.
Soylent Green
Is there room for all of them inside the convention hall? Could be some long lines at the restroom.
It’s interesting how Hillary in her grab for all the Michigan delegates never concerns herself with how the 45% of Michigan voters who didn’t vote for her might feel.
KRK
The “best” argument I read for Clinton’s MI/FL duplicity was that of course Clinton had to do an end run around the rules. Women fighting for equality have often had to break The Rules because The Rules were set up by men and favor men.
Now, there’s a reasonable point in there in the abstract, but this is Hillary “Inevitable” Clinton we’re talking about. Hillary with the war chest and the 100 superdelegate endorsements before the first vote was cast. Hillary with the party machine in most states (where there is a party machine) in her pocket. Hillary whose staff and supporters sat on, and in some cases controlled, the national and state committees that set the rules.
Mind boggling.
Fulcanelli
Every blog you go to is divided into armed camps, gnashing their teeth and beating their shields with their swords in defense of Obama or Hillary.
Life-long Democrats spouting republican dog whistle, race-baiting bullshit with a totally straight face from the campign stump as though its a perfectly normal thing to do.
You can’t believe a fucking thing you see or read in the media unless you see it on video, and even then…
Logic and reason are laughed at or worse by 2/3rds of the USA. Torture is accepted.
Playing by accepted, agreed upon, established rules and even laws means nothing to our politicians.
Lying is expected from our spineless, elected officials.
Was all this really caused by a wealthy, six and a half foot arab diabetic religious fanatic who lives moving from cave to cave who had an ax to grind?
We are so completely and truly fucked as a country.
Brachiator
We may well be witnessing the self-destruction of the modern Democratic Party.
On the one hand, we have Hillary Clinton saying that some whites won’t vote for Obama, leaving the slimy implication that black voters will do what they are told and vote for Hillary if she manages to steal the nomination, no matter how contemptuously they are dismissed.
On the other hand, Hillary is resisting any Party decision on the Michigan delegates because she has called in a big favor with her Hollywood connections to subsidize a revote in Florida and Michigan which she hopes will get her all those white working class votes. Here is the story hot off the wires ( Sources: Clinton supporter pressures Pelosi):
How can the Democrats be expected to take on the GOP in the Congress if they cannot even shut down the BS that threatens to tear their own party apart?
Here is the malevolent genie that Hillary has let out of the bottle: it is one thing for the Democrats to look for ways to confront the dilemma of voters who might not vote for a black candidate. They are being shown a way out by all of the enthusiastic Obama supporters of all races, particularly new voters, independent voters, and voters who previously felt that the aging, cynical power structure wanted to stifle their participation.
But it is another thing entirely for the Democratic Party to say that blacks and other groups (probably including gays) can be members of the party, but are not good enough to lead the party, and are consigned to the back of the bus until further notice.
And it is a shame that the most vociferous and most despicable advocates for the new, tasteful, black disenfranchisement, are Bill and Hillary.
Rick Taylor
That’s another thing that’s hard to understand. The sense of victimization among her supporters. They really see her as the underdog in all this. Everything was against, here, the media was against her, Dean and the DNC has been plotting against her. It’s very strange, and it doesn’t even take into account her considerable abilities. And they use it to bash Obama. If he’s so great, how come Hillary beat him by 9 points when he was spending all that money? It’s like, coming from nowhere, an unknown in the senate, and taking on the wife of the former President, a powerhouse in the Democratic world, all that money, all that organization, all those politicians indebted to her or her husband, and actually winning is a small manner.
El Doh
No. It was caused at least in part by the toxic GOP pursuit of power at all costs that has, like a leaking oil tanker, destroyed and poisoned the surrounding environment.
El Doh
Rick Taylor: Indeed. Hillary had – and squandered – every advantage in this race. Somehow, her supporters suffer amnesia for pretty much everything that transpired before Super Tuesday though.
Zuzu
Oh yeah, DNC head Terry McAuliffe was working overtime on that one.
Snark alert.
TenguPhule
Obama says McCain losing his bearings.
McCain campaign whines about age discrimination.
Donations for cheese now being accepted.
r€nato
That nomination belonged to her and the primary races were supposed to be just a formality! A coronation! And now you dirty proles went and took it away from her!
KCinDC
Krugman needs to go back to writing about economics and get over his Hillary crush. Who told him he was supposed to be doing electoral analysis?
wasabi gasp
I would gladly vote for a wealthy, six and a half foot arab diabetic religious fanatic who lives moving from cave to cave who had an ax to grind over Obama any day.
You Obamalamadingdongs are deluded if you think your guy has a chance against McCain.
binzinerator
Me too. I’m shamed by contrast. I’ve done some things recently I’ve never done before politically, which is donate money to political causes — I gave money to a couple of Dem campaigns and to some progressive organizations, including most recently money to Obama’s campaign. And I’ve done something else I’ve never done before either. I’ve written letters and emails and made calls to my senators and representatives on a number of issues — I, who have never before contacted any congressperson in 25+ years of being eligible to vote. And in the past 6 months I’ve gone to rallies and listened to speeches and in short I’ve gotten physically political.
Oh yeah, I’ve been engaged in my head for a long time. But only in the past 6 months have I put my time and my money where my head and mouth was.
And although I’ve never been as physically engaged in politics as I have in the past 6 months — I’ve never ever before made a phone call or written a letter or sent an email, let alone gave a donation — I still haven’t done what John has gone ahead and done and actually volunteered my time to do something.
That’s something to be admired. Because what I’ve done some may say is passive but no one can say phone banking — taking the time out of your day, showing up, doing the calls — is passive. In fact, it’s pretty damn pro-active.
John’s become a better Dem than me. And I’ve been a Dem for a couple of decades.
I’m going to see where the Obama HQ in my town is located and see what help they need. I’m inspired.
Thanks, John.
stuck in 200
Taken together, all of this should help enormously in bringing all of the Clinton supporters together behind Obama for a united fight against McCain in the November election. Good job, folks.
They’ll never know – I’m sure Hilary!’s supporters are far too hard working to be reading blogs.
Jack H.
Clearly reality doesn’t have a liberal bias on planet Clinton. I wonder if things fall up there?
Why is a Clinton like a writing desk?
Keith
Wow, that’s some choice cherry-picking by Krugman.
It’s pretty bad when you can take this column, swap “Obama” with “Clinton”, replace “Donna Brazille” with “Paul Begala”, and manage to strike a reasonably accurate narrative of the race.
Fulcanelli
Been over at Talk Left? The circular firing squad of McSame dems. They howl and sneer at the ‘elites’ supposedly talking down to them, thinking they’re “bubbas” because they are fucking bubbas… Blue ones. If it wasn’t true, it wouldn’t bother them so much.
They’re pissed, believing they’re true blue, ‘salt of the earth’ folks (and most are), but feel marginalized and written off by Obama supporters (which they haven’t been) which tends to be a more progressive (read by them as smug) minded group. They sound like Bushbots minus the fundamentalism.
They’re circling the wagons because they’re insulted at being told they don’t get the joke. And it’s on them unfortunately. The problem I see is they’re pissed at the wrong person.
Obama’s the one who has made overhauling the process of shipping jobs out of the country a part of his stump speech boilerplate, along with tax breaks for the middle class and tax incentives for businesses who invest at home. Hillary talks about “tweaking” NAFTA. …Yawn… These are bread and butter blue collar Dem issues that need to be fixed and should rally them to him, but… Sadly, NO.
Socially they are republicans and won’t tolerate no uppity big city black lawyer telling them them anything. It’s irrational at best and pathetic at worst. If Hillary was running with Obama’s platform it seems they would try and coronate her, and every female child would be named Hillary for a generation, at least.
These are the “bitter” ones. The ones who will not, or maybe can not adapt to the changes I see in the US, especially in job creation. Unless someone with Obama’s ideas can get elected, large scale blue collar manufacturing, labor and tradesmen jobs, the meat and potatoes of the blue-collar Dem voter, are not coming back any time soon.
In the northeast, it seems most job creation is in the financial, software, information processing or retail fields. I don’t know many former factory workers or truck drivers with four kids who wanna tool up to work at Gap at the mall or behind a computer processing bill payments… And college? Can’t afford it with the republicans in government. But they do not see this.
They’re all on the edge of the cliff ready to jump over to McCain en masse if Obama is nominated, fucking fools. I hope the Lemming Queen can and will talk them out of it in sufficient numbers if she’s not the Dem candidate.
Fulcanelli
wasabiwahabi gasp.Fixt.
NR
Eh, Krugman was right about one thing. That Donna Brazille quote was a fucking stupid thing to say, and that shit needs to stop yesterday.
Delia
Yeah, what’s really the crying shame is the way Obama held the gun to poor Hillary’s head and forced her to keep Mark Penn as a top advisor all those months. The meathead didn’t even know the Democratic Party doesn’t have winner-take-all primaries. If only the nefarious Chicago party boss Barack hadn’t tricked them all on that one, Hillary would be waltzing to the White House by now. It’s just pathetic.
bago
Understatement of the day:
Of course, it’s not unusual for innocent people to run from explosions.
Rick Taylor
I didn’t think Krugman’s article was that bad (it certainly wasn’t as bad as the last embarrassing column he did on Obama), though it wasn’t very good either. It didn’t address Hillary Clinton, but I don’t see why it needed to. It was a bit condescending; Obama’s campaign is aware of how he’s doing with various demographics and he is responding; you could even hear it in his speech after North Carolina. And was doing it with a much defter touch than tossing back boiler makers or recounting his childhood hunting experiences. And I believe Krugman overstates the disparities, playing into the memes Clinton has been attempting to sell that Obama is in especially big trouble with whites. There’s a good diary on it at the daily kos here.
Rick Taylor
This is way late, but I just found it. It’s the audio from a call with Clinton’s campaign after North Carolina and Indiana, I believe the one Thymeone was talking about earlier.
isit2009yet
This is harsh……..but wonderful!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6Lstkiexhc&eurl=http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/
Zuzu
Dead link. I bet you meant this?
Killing by the Numbers
How heartbreaking.
cleek
assholes
Notorious P.A.T.
Yeah! After all, McCain has HUGE advantages in name-recognition, establishment support, and money. Obama could NEVER defeat someone like that!
jake
You might find anything in her drawers.
What?
Napoleon
I swear, if she draws a half way plausable primary challenger in her senate re-election campaign in ’12 I am contributing to that person.
Soliton
I guess I’m unusual for someone with Democratic tendencies..
I don’t like Clinton *or* Obama.. Clinton for all the reasons I see spouted here, day after day.
Obama because he is a world class hypocrite.. A black male, former druggie, Christian, Constitutional scholar.. Who supports the far and away most racist program in the USA today.. The drug war.
You would think that a truly intelligent Christian could read the Gospels and figure out that the Christ didn’t much care for hypocrites.. You would also think that a truly intelligent Christian would see the hypocrisy in supporting a policy which, if imposed upon himself, would have kept him from ever running for POTUS.
Those of you who think Obama is going to fundamentally change things in America are tragically wrong, IMO.. Obama is just another hypocrite who will say or do anything and pander to anyone, drug warriors included, to reach the reins of power.
cleek
Obama on pot:
YMMV
jake
Goodness gracious me Paul, how on Earth did that happen?
I’ve officially had it with people who blithely parse a candidate’s Caucasian support:
but lump African Americans into one big group. Wouldn’t be … oh, I don’t know … interesting to look at how highly educated AAs are voting or the o-so-elusive working-class AAs?
And what the fuck happened to all the people who aren’t Caucasian or African American who also vote? Clinton isn’t doing herself any favors with this White People Like Me shit.
nightjar
So vote for MCcain and throw rocks at the Moon.
Kevin K.
I need this primary to be over because yesterday I watched Ann Althouse vs. Jeralyn Demerritt on Bloggingheads TV and found myself siding with Althouse. And this morning my wife came in joyously telling me that Peggy Noonan had just eviscerated Clinton (and Pat Buchanan) over the “white Americans” comment on Morning Joe while I was wincing through that dreadful Krugman editorial.
My head hurts.
marjowil
I read michiganliberal.com this morning for their take on it. One of the uncommitted delegates said that is was the best proposal they could agree to and the most favorable to Hillary, and if she didn’t take it, she would most likely get less delegates than more.
I heard Debbie Dingell on Ed Schultz yesterday. (This was before Hillary declined.) She’s probably more responsible for the mess Michigan is in than anyone else. She was real careful not to point fingers toward either side, saying that the decision to move the primary early was “civil disobedience,” but since what’s done is done, it’s important to move forward and resolve this. She and most of those who decided to move the primary were pro-Clinton anyway, but now they’re just trying to get an agreement. I favor letting Obama decide to seat the delegates after he gets the nom. The supers in Michigan lost their vote because of this mess and they shouldn’t get it back before the nomination is decided.
The delegate quoted on michiganliberal said that he is encountering some during canvassing who feel this is Obama’s fault for taking his name off the ballot (to appease Iowa), and for that reason it should be resolved; the Clinton camp has convinced many that they are blameless. They’re not. The Clinton supers were trying to game the system and they lost their bet. Screw ’em.
I am willing to wait for the general. My husband voted Repub because the Dem primary wasn’t going to count; he wouldn’t have been allowed to revote as a result. I voted uncommitted, because I was afraid Clinton would try to grab a victory. She did, just as predicted, but now the danger is that she’ll try to grab uncommitted delegates as well.
just a big sorry mess.
Soliton
How is this not a drug warrior position?
Soliton
A well reasoned and cogent reply, kudos.
Bedlam
I dont understand this. Perhaps someone could help with the maths ( not Hillary maths – real maths ).
If she took the votes that definately voted for her in these two states, and Obama took half the uncommitted as we can assume atleast half would have voted for him based on his record. how would that balance the numbers?
would Obama keep the lead? as I dont think that Hills should steal a lead from this fiasco, but if they can keep similar %’s from it, then it takes out that arguement for once and for all.
can anyone count that for me ?
Karmakin
Mary:
Right band, wrong song.
New Born
I strongly believe that Clinton and her campaign are emotionally devoted to their cynicism. The bitterness and belief that things are well..hopeless just flows out of the campaign.
Bob In Pacifica
The pledge Edwards, Obama and Clinton signed for the DNC said that they would not campaign or participate in the Michigan and Florida primaries. These pledges were signed in the context of the DNC ruling that those primaries were bogus. Like I’ve said, there’s nothing that says participation like demanding delegates. The candidates who did take their name off the ballot did so because they promised not to participate. Hillary left her name on the ballot because she is who she is.
John Cole
Considering Cleek demonstrated you were wrong and you ignored it, why bother with other responses. Obama is the farthest left on this issue. You can vote for Tommy Chong and help McCain get elected, or you can vote for Obama and advance your cause.
nightjar
Wasn’t meant to be well reasoned or cogent. At least anymore more so than your comment. It was sincere advice for a rock thrower.
Original Lee
Also, the “he’s spending more money than we are” thing is an elitist dogwhistle. One is supposed to be scornful of politicians who are trying to buy elections by spending lots of money. Voters are supposed to spurn candidates who are trying to slide their way into office on a green stream of media purchases, because candidates like that are slimy rich bastards, not “salt of the earth” types who are really trying to help us.
Clinton is trying to keep the elitist label from peeling off by referring to Obama’s war chest as often as possible. White, blue-collar voters are supposed to resent Obama for having all of this campaign funding and vote for just-folks Clinton. It may have worked well in PA, and it might work in WV and KY.
cleek
it’s also an attempt to portray herself as the underdog, bravely fighting on despite her opponent’s advantages.
Soliton
Cleek did no such thing..
http://www.reason.com/news/show/124769.html
Sasha
But if the nomination is decided without Florida and Michigan’s weigh-in, doesn’t it essentially work out the same way?
MI/FL had the chance to truly affect how this squeeker of a primary went and blew it by trying to jump the gun. If their delegates are allowed to be seated after it’s too late for them to affect the primary’s outcome, then I believe the lesson will have been learned.
John S.
Any person with a shred of sanity stops reading at that point.
Shuffle off to Red State, Soliton. It’s a better fit for you. Especially with gems like this:
A true Christian wouldn’t be engaging in politics to begin with (Jesus made it a point to be decidedly apolitical), so spare us the faux-Christianist bullshit. Or to put it in biblical terms, remove the plank from your own eye before you start complaining about the splinter in your neighbor’s eye.
horatius
Soliton,
Just vote for Mccain and be done with it. There is so much stupid to deal with, we don’t have time for you.
Brachiator
Because, of course, when a Blue Collar Momma like Hillary peels off $6.4 million from her $109 million stash to lend to her own campaign, well, Hell, that’s not elitist at all.
/snark
les
You forgot to mention your favorite candidate, who’s going to end the drug war. Good to know that making decisions on single issues in order to poke a sharp stick in your own eye is a bipartisan habit.
Kevin
I think you might do something better with the time than wasting it in asking riddles that have no answers.
Janus Daniels
Actually (RTFA) this Krugman seems sensible and balanced. He does not say anything like, “… nastiness is all the fault of Obama supporters and Obama.” He does condemn the Axelrod & Brazile commments, and he does finish,
“Mr. Obama should center his campaign on economic issues that matter to working-class families, whatever their race.
The point is that Mr. Obama has an extraordinary opportunity in this year’s election. He should do everything possible to avoid squandering it.”
In short, correct on all counts.
nightjar
?
Singularity
Yeah, I went into that Krugman column expecting it to be as annoying as some of his other pro-Hillary stuff has been. And while there were moments when I found myself getting angry as I read, I realized at the end that his advice is actually not terrible. It is fairly imperative that Obama do what he can to pick up a good chunk of Hillary’s voters. And while I agree with the sentiment that pandering to people who were so willfully blind that they supported that liar and her band of douchebags is unpalatable, it is Obama’s job to do just that if that’s what is necessary to keep McCain out of the White House next year. I don’t know how easy it would have been for me to punch the card for Hillary in Novemeber, but thankfully that burden is off my shoulders now. I honestly don’t see or understand the major complaints of Hillary supporters against Obama at all, so I can’t imagine that their burden in voting for him could be worse than mine would have been. In any case, Krugman’s thoughts are probably something Team-Obama should take into account.
As for the Reason-reading drug war protester above, I’m fairly certain he intends to write in Ron Paul’s name anyway. I take nothing I see in conservative media sources at face value, and unless I see sourcing for the “New Hampshire newspaper” quote, I reject your entire cite from Reason. I can go to Newsmax.com and pull a dozen out-of-context or just fabricated quotes to make any liberal look bad. Doesn’t mean any of them are believable. Really, you should just go smoke a spliff and vote Paul. When McCain’s jackbooted thugs come kicking down your door, you can tell them you didn’t vote for Obama. That should make a difference to them.