We tortured. You can not read this report (warning- .pdf) and tell me it was just “enhanced interrogation techniques.” This was not, as Rumsfeld asserted, akin to standing at a desk all day long.
We tortured these people, and who knows what else we have done. The details need to come out, and there need to be prosecutions. This was not a few bad apples at Abu Gharaib. This was systemic torture, and it goes to the highest levels of our government.
ed
And, even though you’d think that one shouldn’t have to reiterate this point, torture is bad. Quite bad, in fact.
The Tim Channel
War crimes for war criminals. ASAP.
Enjoy.
Bill
"The details need to come out, and there need to be prosecutions."
I absolutely agree.
Argive
How long before some asshole wingnut starts going on about how all this was no worse than fraternity hazing?
anonevent
Actually, I predict wingers will start arguing that you have to prosecute the president for war crimes, because we have to prevent the office of the president from torturing. Not Bush, he’s not the president, Obama is.
Montysano
So the GOP is threatening to filibuster some of Obama’s nominations if he insists on releasing critical torture memos from the Bush era. Please, oh FSM, let Obama have a "Bring it on" moment: make them filibuster, make them talk all night, and make sure everyone is aware of the reason.
Country first, my ass.
Zifnab
People were already dying or attempting to commit suicide in US custody. If their insidious attempts at "asymmetrical warfare" (stop not-breating! you’re hurting the war effort!) didn’t sell the fact that they were torturing people, this new memo won’t change your mind.
I mean, you had a picture of a guy standing on a pail, hooded, with his hands connected to jumper cables. What more evidence did we seriously need?
Brick Oven Bill
‘Alleged’ waterboarding by 4 of 14;
‘Alleged’ forced standing by 10 of 14;
‘Alleged’ slapping by 9 of 14;
‘Alleged’ exposure to cold by most of 14;
‘Alleged’ threats of ill-treatment by 9 of 14; and it gets worse…
‘Alleged’ forced shaving by 2 of 14.
I agree that we need to listen to the allegations of these 14 prisoners, and prosecute our military and intelligence services. This was systematic, obviously, and goes to the highest levels of government.
burnspbesq
After they get the fair trials that they so cavalierly denied to others, throw the lot of them in the Federal Supermax in Colorado, so they can experience what they did to Jose Padilla and Ali al-Marri.
I wonder how long they will last.
GSD
Did anyone see the piece on 60 Minutes about the Iranian dissident who was put in Iran’s Evin prison and tortured?
Did anyone notice that most of the techniques that he described as torture were what we would hear described as enhanced interrogation techniques.
America is a nation that tortured many people and doesn’t have the moral fortitude to face up to that disgrace.
-GSD
Zifnab
@Montysano:
If he releases them, at least they’ll have something to read while filibustering, eh?
someguy
I agree with Judge Bates’ ruling in D.C. last week in the Wazir, al Bakri and al Maqaleh cases. Captured AQ or anybody else should not be held by the government unless they are formally charged in a criminal court in the U.S. Their constitutional rights are applicable no matter where they are captured, and it is shameful that we have taken this long to provide them with due process, never mind having tortured at least 14 (and probably tens of thousands) of other captured (or simply kidnapped) people.
Cynicor
I have had this debate many times with acquaintances.
When I say "we committed war crimes," I am told "How dare you say that about Americans?"
When I present the Geneva Conventions on torture, I am told "That’s not US law."
When I present the Constitution and show that the Conventions do have the force of law, I am told "That wasn’t torture."
When I provide definitions of torture that match what we did to detainees, I am told "That’s what they say, and they are trained to lie about it."
When I discuss the physical evidence and statements made by Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and others, I am told "We are protecting America by getting information to stop further attacks."
When I provide evidence that torture doesn’t produce actionable intelligence and that humane treatment does, I am told "But these are bad guys, I can’t believe you have sympathy for them."
When I point out that none of the detainees have been put to trial and that the majority of detainees didn’t do anything, I am told that "We meant well."
When I reiterate that the Geneva Conventions specifically refute any "meant well" defense, I am told "Obama is a socialist who wants to grab our guns."
Repeat as necessary.
John PM
I will be writing to my Republican Congressman every day until he agrees to an investigation. I will go to every public appearance he makes in my district until he agrees to an investigation. I will also be doing the same to my two Democratic Senators.
someguy
And this is how you fight terrorism, not by putting American troops in harms way. It’s good to see the Obama Administration putting the focus where it should be, on law enforcement solutions rather than ill-advised military adventurism and imperialism.
David Brooks
Torture has been morally intuitive for thousands of years. If the law of the modern United States is in conflict with the moral intuition that guided Pontius Pilate and the Spanish Inquisition, then the law should be changed. That’s a no-brainer.
liberal
We also launched an illegal war of aggression that killed hundreds of thousands of people (so far) and created millions of refugees.
IMHO that’s quite a bit worse than the torture stuff—I guess I’m just a raw utilitarian at heart.
(Not that the torture stuff is OK of course.)
Brick Oven Bill
Our methods of torture are much more advanced than traditional Muslim methods of influencing others. And these Iraqi guys with drills, cigarettes, scimitars, cell-phones, and hammers are advances as well.
But before the introduction of electricity, people had to make due with the tools they had at ‘hand’. But, as they say, necessity is the mother of invention! Take, for instance the old Muslim favorite for disobedient slaves or uppity subjects, the ‘salt torture’, as detailed in Douglas Porch’s Conquest of Morocco.
This one is pretty good. You cut four slices into the palm of your prisoner’s hand. And then you force the digits of your prisoner’s hand through the four incisions, and between the bones. Then, once this is complete, what you do is pour a bunch of salt on his hand, and wrap it tightly.
We have previously discussed pickling and the creation of sausage in warm weather climates, and this is very similar. You let your prisoner wander around while his hand pickles and salt cures. And then after the hand has become a useless appendage, you can then remove the wrappings. The appendage is then effective as a reminder to the poorly-behaving prisoner, slave, or political rival.
This might not rise to the level of alleged forced shaving, but it is still a pretty good effort, given the constraints of Morocco.
liberal
@someguy:
That’s kind of extreme. People who are captured on the battlefield shouldn’t be charged in a domestic criminal court.
The problem here is:
(a) Most of these people were not captured on any battlefield (indeed, were not captured by US forces at all), and
(b) They’re not being given by-the-book military trials and are instead relegated to this weird limbo status.
** Atanarjuat **
I’m just wondering how releasing all this classified material is going to keep Americans safer abroad, or even here at home (9/11, anyone?).
It’s all well and good to have a transparent government, but certain matters are best treated with discretion and confidentiality for the sake of national security.
But I supposed that embarrassing the former Bush administration has a higher priority among liberals than keeping America safe, so the recent disclosures come as no surprise.
-A
liberal
@someguy:
Hmm…then why are we still in Iraq, and why does Obama plan on increasing the troop commitment to Afghanistan?
someguy
Bill, you know damn well that they are just responding to US provocation and cultural (and in some cases actual military) imperialism. They are acting in self defense, and to the extent they aren’t, a state often needs to take tough action to keep unruly people in line. You have no basis to criticize their culture as inferior.
Stefan
Did anyone see the piece on 60 Minutes about the Iranian dissident who was put in Iran’s Evin prison and tortured? Did anyone notice that most of the techniques that he described as torture were what we would hear described as enhanced interrogation techniques.
Yes, but when describing what the Iranians did, it was described as torture, not "enhanced interrogation techniques" or "harsh questioning" or "what many Democrats and human rights activists have described as torture", which would have been the euphemisms that CBS would have used if they had been interviewing a Muslim prisoner describing what he endured at the hands of the Americans.
Rosali
Documented proof of the torture existed but the CIA destroyed 92 videotapes of the interrogations. Who in the White House gave the order to detroy the tapes in 2005?
The Moar You Know
My problem is less with the fact that we torture, and more that we lie about it and pretend we don’t. A lot of regimes torture. Hell, it’s the norm throughout most of the world. What these prisoners were put through is standard operating procedure in a lot of countries.
So if we’re going to do this, let’s not pussyfoot around it or call it "enhanced interrogation techniques" or any of that waffling. Say "fuck yeah, we torture and God help you if Uncle Sam gets hold of your ass".
Say it loud and say it proud!
And if you feel embarassed or ashamed about doing that, if you find that people look at you oddly or talk behind your back about what a sick sonofabitch you are, then maybe you shouldn’t be fucking torturing people.
The Moar You Know
Oh dear, I have used a forbidden word and am now in moderation.
Montysano (All Hail Marx & Lennon)
@** Atanarjuat **:
Speaking solely for myself: I’ll take my chances. I’m far more likely to get hit by lightening than attacked by terrorists. I want no part of torture.
In Jose Padilla, our government imprisoned an American citizen without due process, then literally drove him insane with sensory deprivation torture. These fuckers need to be in jail.
Balconesfault
@Brick Oven Bill: Someone seems to enjoy the specifics on torture a bit much …
Balconesfault
@** Atanarjuat **:
Hell, I was wondering the same thing when we invaded Iraq.
I’m still wondering.
At least prosecuting torture has some moral imperative as a basis.
I look at it this way.
Would the US ever condemn or seek sanctions against another country for invading another country?
Would the US ever condemn or seek sanctions against another country for torturing prisoners?
Would the US ever condemn or seek sanctions against another country for conducting trials of people who tortured prisoners?
Nuff said.
AkaDad
The document giving that order was accidentally shredded.
Zifnab
@** Atanarjuat **:
Given that the greatest threat our nation currently faces (according to the brave and noble Congresswoman Bachman) is an illegitimate Muslim Usurper President flying in on a black helicopter to take your guns, abort your kids, and drag you off to a re-education facility, I would think you’d feel a little safer at home knowing that US torture facilities are being exposed and dismantled.
But maybe you’re not worried. Maybe you’re just another one of the Obamaniacs who thinks the President should be allowed to do whatever he wants. Maybe you’re in on it too. I’m going to tighten my tin-foil hat, load my shottie, and hide in my basement, just in case.
dslak
@Cynicor: How dare you spy on conversations between me and my dad! Where are you hiding the vidoe cameras?!
jenniebee
That always steamed me. Forced Standing is a technique that was used by the KGB and Latin American dictatorships and is still used by the North Koreans. It was one of Stalin’s favorites for people he wanted to make confess for show trials because it doesn’t leave any marks. You keep someone standing for just a few hours and the pain is excruciating. If I recall correctly, you get massive swelling in the legs within 24 hours, and after that happens if the torturee doesn’t get a chance to walk it off – which is agonizing – you’re flirting with kidney failure (and, of course, death).
But hey, it’s just standing, right? What’s with all this lefty whining about it?
PK
Brick oven Bill
Are you mad? I mean that seriously. If you are under the care of a psychiatrist you need to change your meds. If not, then you need to get yourself one as soon as possible. Nothing but a mental disorder would explain what you just wrote.
The Moar You Know
@** Atanarjuat **: This is not a US Government classified document. It is a document that the International Red Cross marked for their own purposes as "confidential" – and they certainly have the right to make it not confidential if they wanted to.
US Government had nothing to do with this, so sorry, try again.
@Brick Oven Bill: Had to take a quick trip to the bathroom after writing that, didn’t you? Pretty obvious what gets you off.
Balconesfault
@Zifnab:
Clearly you’re a liberal.
Conservatives tighten their bulletproof vests, load their AK-47s, and wait in their upstairs bedrooms.
Ejoiner
On prosecutions:
One repeated issue we’ve had since the 1970’s and Watergate is an insistence that the highest levels of our leadership should not be held accountable for their misbehavior because we just can’t go there – the American public and political system just couldn’t take it. So no one pays a price for unethical/illegal and immoral practices and, in fact, many of them eventually benefit from such behavior (like after Iran-Contra). If we don’t ever apply the rule of law we will only continue to get more of the same. If no one enforces a speed limit everyone drives as fast they want to.
Brick Oven Bill:
Yes, the thing I dearly desire the most is to see my country behave on the same level as barbaric, tribal clans from the Middle Ages. Sounds totally like the United States our forefathers fought and died for.
geg6
@GSD:
I watched that and sat with my mouth open in amazement at all the pearl clutching in that report. No mention of the irony that what was done by Iran is not one iota different than what our own government did. No discussion of US abuse of prisoners and detainees, just a bunch of "Oh, noes! Iran is full of big meanies!"
Now, I have no desire to minimize or excuse the actions of the Iranian government, but I really don’t think anyone in this country has any business screaming and crying about Iran’s techniques for administration of justice. At least they openly admit to what they do and why they do it and make no bones about it. Unlike our own cowardly and dishonest government that does all the same things but brazenly runs around the world claiming our legal, moral, ethical, and spiritual superiority.
Balconesfault
@geg6:
Naah – we’d be no different from Iran if we tortured people who look like us.
It’s ok if you only torture people who look different. /wingnut
dslak
@PK: I think what BOB was trying to say is that the worst thing done at Guantanamo was forced shaving, which can hardly be compared to what those evil Moroccans did 100 years ago.
Brick Oven Bill
I am not mad PK. The post was meant to mock the idea of prosecuting our uniformed forces on the basis of ‘allegations’ by fourteen prisoners with too much time on their hands, whose primary entertainment these days probably involves playing with the panting European Red Cross brigade with white coats and clipboards containing lists of questions.
But the salt torture is reality and, in my opinion, gives an insight into the mindset of certain people. I’ve been invited to watch hands and heads be cut off, and chose to not take part in the ceremony. If I recall correctly, this is done every Sunday, but my memory as to the day is fuzzy.
dslak
BOB is right, of course. You can’t just go prosecuting people on the basis of allegations that they did something wrong. You need to torture them first.
** Atanarjuat **
@The Moar You Know:
We’re done talking, buddy.
-A
Hyperion
What are you imagining?
We tortured these people. IIRC about 2 dozen died in our custody as a result of what we did to them. Are you saying that something in the future could come out that would shock you more? Like we flayed a couple of suspects?
I don’t like this "ranking" of torture. that’s how we got here….
it’s just standing.
it’s just a mock execution.
how can it be torture if the target is walking around 15 minutes after being waterboarded? (my repub brother-in-law’s analysis.)
there is sufficient evidence that we tortured. there has been evidence for several years. it’s just that NOW the official documents are being released where previously we had to depend on leaked and unconfirmed allegations.
phein
"Enhanced interrogation techniques" sounds better in the original German: Verschärfte Vernehmung.
"It was just ‘enhanced interrogation techniques’" means "It was just torture."
** Atanarjuat **
@Zifnab:
Thanks for the chuckle, Zifnab.
For an Obama-approving leftist, you do have a good sense of humor, which is a rare and welcome thing.
-A
someguy
Which is why the entire war on terror is a fraud. A few sheep get eaten by the wolves. Big deal. It’s no reason to give the sheep machine guns or lock them up in the farmhouse attic at night, and only allow them as far as the kitchen during the day.
Which is exactly why the security apparatus ought to be looking at them a whole lot more. They pose a greater threat to us (e.g. Oklahoma City, abortion clinic bombings, the Pittsburgh shootings) than any other terrorist group.
It’s Niewart’s world. We only live in it.
Cris
@David Brooks: Beautiful.
@** Atanarjuat **:
what
** Atanarjuat **
@Balconesfault:
You ask good questions, Balconesfault, but I think the answers are obvious in a way that you may not have perceived.
President George W. Bush did what he had to do to keep the nation safe after 9/11, and prancing to the tune of other nation’s approval or disapproval wasn’t going to cut it.
Results do matter.
-A
someguy
@ liberal
Because he needs political cover before he can withdraw them. It will take a while to retreat from the loss in Iraq, You can’t just hop in the car and drive out and leave all that shit behind. In Afghanistan, he’ll need to give it a good effort before acknowledging the deafeat we’ve suffered, lest he be accused of not even trying. That he is faced by the political reality of having to do this is the fault of the Bush Administration, which never even tried, and which, as others have pointed out, was illegal and never should have been done in the first place. So it’s a bad situation and he has to give it a go before declaring it lost and cutting out of there, otherwise he’ll hand the wingnuts a tool they can use in the next election to bludgeon him, and it won’t help with NATO either. It’s not his fault, just the shitty hand he got dealt by BushCo.
Cris
I agree with the rest of your post, but you’re wrong about this part. It is a big deal. It’s worth preventing. It’s just that our country’s response to it (which you describe well in your metaphor) is neither proportional nor effective.
Tsulagi
That was his conclusion after intensive sandbox and countertop analysis by the “serious adults” advising him. Prior to that after seeing the undisclosed Abu Ghraib materials, Rummy’s apparently lying eyes told him and the Senate Armed Services Committee in testimony…
Maybe little Lindsey, The Maverick’s sidekick, saw the videos…
So to sum up, in response to 9/11, the previous admin employs techniques that every torture expert on the planet knows don’t work and are counterproductive. And we invade a country with all the attendant costs that only a Cheney masturbating to his own fantasies could see a connection to 9/11.
A Special Olympian who tends to run around the track in the wrong direction wildly flapping his arms to stay light on his feet brings far more brain power to the table than the tard collective brought in that administration.
PK
So one has to start with the assumption that these 14 prisoners are lying, and of course you have to throw in the mockery of the European Red cross as well.
Since the prisoners have too much time on their hands and the Red Cross is nothing but the Anti US white coat brigade, of course no one should be prosecuted for torture.
That is some tortured logic!
someguy
@ cris
I don’t think so. How many billions have we spent on domestic security, and the end result is enormous hassles at airports, a war on pretty much every non-white person in the world, and no proof that any of it is effective? Sorry, the threat is just plain made up. AQ got lucky one time and we utterly overreacted, and just because the overreaction may have prevented other attacks doesn’t mean the overreaction is a good thing. It would be better to spend the money on foreign aid and efforts to improve our image in the world, then to turn the country into a police state in the name of preventing attacks. Address the real reason people would want to attack us, rather than trying to treat the symptoms of the disease, and turn some of the effort toward those home grown extremists.
Cris
@someguy: we’re agreeing.
Brick Oven Bill
All I am saying PK is that as: The Al Qaeda Manual directs prisoners to claim that they are tortured; Mohammed directed that ‘War is deception’; these prisoners make a habit of collecting their excrement, and throwing it at their guards and medical staff; the whole facility has been under a microscope; these are allegations by bored men; and whenever our guys are captured by the religion of peace they are tortured, beheaded, defiled, and implanted with bombs to kill or maim the persons retrieving their lifeless bodies;
Perhaps we should give our uniformed forces the benefit of the doubt before calling for their heads.
The Moar You Know
@** Atanarjuat **: I can’t quit you.
dslak
Shorter BOB: Italian soccer players are trained to feign injury. Therefore, one should never assume that an opposing team has committed a foul against an Italian player, regardless of the evidence in favor of that conclusion.
geg6
@Brick Oven Bill:
You really are clueless, aren’t you?
Numerous members of the armed forces have admitted to witnessing torture perpetrated on the detainees at Gitmo. There are transcripts and memos and reports on the techniques used and against whom they were used. JAG lawyers practically muntineed over that very matter and that of the extralegal measures being taken against these people. We have photos of detainees being tortured both in Abu Grhaib and Gitmo. And we have medical reports and Red Cross reports that prove we tortured.
I know that none of that means anything to you, but those of us who live in the real world where real actions have real consequences would prefer to accept that reality, regardless of the pain it causes us as citizens of this country, now sadly degraded not only by the fact that our government tortured in our name but by ridiculous rationalizations like yours.
Stefan
Perhaps we should give our uniformed forces the benefit of the doubt before calling for their heads.
The benefit of the doubt was lost with the Abu Ghraib photos.
Kirk Spencer
Brick Oven Bill,
You are correct, sir, that prosecutions cannot be built upon allegations. You appear, however, to be missing a critical reading of what others are saying.
INVESTIGATIONS can, and should, be initiated because of these allegations. Should the investigations confirm these (among many other) allegations, prosecutions should follow.
As to the bit about higher echelons, the ALLEGATION at this time is that these and other actions happened in many places under the scrutiny and approval of higher echelons. It is ALLEGED that there were regular meetings of the President and selected cabinet members to review, discuss, approve and adjust the procedures that have been ALLEGED to have been done.
An investigation is, in my opinion, needed to confirm or deny these allegations. That investigation is needed for the whole – not merely of the individuals ‘just following orders’, but of the higher echelons who gave those orders. Let the chips – prosecution or exoneration – fall where they may.
Arguing that nothing be done because these are "only" allegations is ignorant or ingenuous. Hopefully the former as in my experience ignorance can be cured.
Balconesfault
@** Atanarjuat **:
And yet, Iran has suffered far more destruction and human loss due to attacks on their country during the generation of the current leadership than America has.
You want to deny them the right to use the same tools to protect their security that you’d advocate America using?
On what moral authority, other than "we’re America, and they aren’t"?
Svensker
Besides the reports, the photos from Abu Graib, etc., etc., Dick Flippin’ Cheney admitted that they tortured and he thought it was no big deal and the right thing to do.
So the wingnuts all claim: "We didn’t torture! You are a lying America hater!". Then when it is pointed out that we did indeed torture they claim: "Why do you love the terrorists? What would you do if you could save 1M people by torturing one terrorist? What’s the big deal? Torture saves lives! Why do you hate America?"
So which is it? A) We didn’t torture. Or, B) We did torture and it was a good thing.
Waiting for a straight answer on this one, wingers.
Balconesfault
@Svensker:
You can’t handle the truth.
(which, irony of ironies, was scripted for a character talking about goings on at Guantanamo)
Leisuregy
I understand that John Hinderaker refers to waterboarding as "getting your face wet." Has he ever experienced waterboarding? Would he like to?
timb
@** Atanarjuat **: Then the 4000 Americans he got killed in Iraq for nothing are an example of "not getting results." He didn’t kill AQ there, until he created them and then paid the people killing us to kill them.
George’s plan is a bit like "Syndrome’s" plan in The Incredibles and you are calling it genius.
You are not gifted.
TenguPhule
Yes, and torture got none.
Not only does Bush need to hang for torture, we can stick incompetence to the list.
TenguPhule
And with this, BOB jumps the shark.
When people argue that "our" methods of torture are better then the terrorists, the terrorists have won.
Hob
"We tortured these people, and who knows what else we have done."
Well, among other things, we’ve also killed some of the people that we tortured. That’s not even open to question — prisoners in U.S. military custody have been beaten to death.
Does anyone know if there’s still a grand jury investigation about Bagram and Dilawar? The last I heard about that was almost two goddamn years ago.
Ejoiner
Amen and end of discussion.
Argive
And they still don’t work. I mean, what is your point? In this whole thread, I don’t think you’ve addressed what many people consider to be a pretty big hole in the torture argument: that it produces bad information.
Marc with a C
@ BrickOvenBill
Torture is torture is torture. While some tortures are physically more gruesome than others, once you cross an absolute line and torture somebody, it doesn’t matter that your torture isn’t as "bad" as what your enemies do. Ironically, we liberals are the ones who are often accused of being the moral relativists.
For example, according to the logic employed by some conservatives, John McCain was not tortured. He simply received an enhanced interrogation. And he was dropping bombs on Vietnamese civilian infrastructure, while a lot of the guys in Guantanamo were guilty of nothing more than being captured carrying an AK somewhere in Afghanistan.
Furthermore, even if you want to pursue the logic that since our actions aren’t as brutal as what the Taliban does that makes us OK, remember that we have shipped dozens of prisoners to foreign countries SPECIFICALLY for the purpose of more brutal interrogations than we could get away with at Camp X-Ray.
Furthermore, while you seem contemptuous that the "forced shaving" of someone could be considered humiliating or torture, remember that one of the things the Nazis did when invading Russia and Poland was shave the beards off of the Rabbis there (not invoking Godwin’s law, simply providing historical context). Likewise during the anti-Rastafari persecutions in Jamaica in the 60s and 70s, soldiers would forcibly shave off peoples’ dreadlocks. Being bearded is an important part of some Muslim cultures and forcibly shaving them is a deliberate attempt at causing psychological pain. I’ll wager if the American hostages being held in Iran from 1979 until 1981 underwent anything similar to what we do to people at X-Ray, you would be screaming bloody murder.
Bottom line: if you don’t want it done to GIs, contractors, or civilians who are captured in Iraq or Afghanistan, you shouldn’t want it done to anybody. Otherwise, you’re engaging in the worst kind of American exceptionalism by plainly saying that torture is OK when we do it, but when anyone else does it, they are monsters.
kay
@Hob:
—prisoners in U.S. military custody have been beaten to death.
That’s the issue for me. In custody. The custodian is responsible for those in his custody. It goes back 500 years, at least. "In custody" has a literal and practical meaning, and it comes with responsibility TO the captured. The captor gets his prisoner. What he also gets is responsibility for that prisoner. This is not a fine legal point, and it can’t be dodged. It’s civil society 101.
I feel as those who advocate torture have pulled a sort of fast one. They want to talk specifics. That’s bullshit, and they’re smart enough to know it.
"In custody" means we’ve limited their capacity for self defense. We’ve quite literally tied their hands. That’s why there’s a custodial duty, a duty that exceeds any ordinary moral responsibility towards a person who can defend. They’re defenseless, and we put them there. That’s why our duty is extraordinary. More, not less. The proponents of torture want to argue that’s it’s LESS in the case of a prisoner, but that’s backwards.
Phoenician in a time of Romans
Our methods of torture are much more advanced than traditional Muslim methods of influencing others.
Actually, Bob, one of the most advanced forms of torture is one of the simplest. You can kill people simply by not letting them sleep.
But. It. Is. Still. Torture.
Svensker
@Leisuregy:
I’d like him to. Does that count?
Cris
You fuckin’ beat this prick long enough, he’ll tell you he started the goddamn Chicago fire, but that don’t necessarily make it fuckin’ so.
Even that isn’t sufficient. Hitchens notwithstanding, it’s perfectly possible to undergo torturous treatment — at the hands of your allies, knowing full well that they won’t let you be injured and that they aren’t trying to get a confession out of you — and come out thinking "that wasn’t so bad."
Reminds me of this conversation that grendelkahn pointed me to.
kay
The arrogance still amazes me. 100 years of combined American on the ground experience, a huge body of law, all pointing to the idea that coerced confessions aren’t reliable.
4 conservative lawyers get in a room and unilaterally decide it simply isn’t TRUE. Decide that THEIR experience is so unique, that they are so wildly brilliant, that all that wisdom doesn’t matter.
That’s breathtaking. Just over-ridden, by someone like David Addington. Oh, and a law professor. They brought one of them in, too.
That’s radical.
luisa da silva
About a 2 months ago, a Mr. Nowak of Amnesty International wrote to the Obama administration asking that Rumsfeld and Cheney be tried for tortures and he had all the reports ready. Obama answered like this: "we have to look forward not backward". But don’t you think that if you want to prepare a good future, you have to clean up your past first. Obama can give beautiful speeches as he wants around the world, but that same world knows what U.S. has done, and this starts with invading a country illegally. Unfortunately, Kofi Annan couldn’d do anything probably because of threats from Washington. Now, let’s say that Obama has 2 terms but the Republicans come back in 8 years – they are all war mongerers. U.S. will be back to square one. About the torture of innocent detainees, I think this is a cover up – torture was used to make them admit to anything including the 9/11.
luisa da silva
Last winter there was a guest at Bill Moyer – she had written a book about the torture of detainees (unfortunately I cannot recall her name nor the title of her book). She said that F.B.I. agents who had to be present during the torture (by C.I.A. agents by the way) to gather information had to leave the room as the torture used was too painful to watch. That tells you how bad it was. To those who say that the U.S. doesn’t torture like Muslims do is wrong – don’t forget that before being sent to GITMO, detainees were sent and tortured in secret prisons, very often in Egypt, Syria. Many died under American’s watch but we will never know the real number.
chuck
@BOB
Yeah and it’s a pretty effective trick when it’s backed up by the fact that we actually do it. Used to be we were the ones who got the benefit of the doubt, see. Or is the ICRC in on the conspiracy?
You’re a better spoof when you’re channeling Cliff Clavin from Cheers. This is unbecoming of you as a human being.