Yeah, yeah, I know I spend too much time reading the Washington Post online, but good Lord, you find some crazy shit there. From their Planet War blog moderator (no, I didn’t make that name up):
President Obama’s decision to release the so-called torture memos, over the strenuous objections of many of the senior national security and intelligence professionals, may go down in history as one of the most consequential of his first 100 days. The former Director of the CIA Michael Hayden and the former Attorney General Michael Mukasey argue strenuously that it was a mistake, and that it will hurt U.S. efforts to combat terrorism. There seem to be two principal objections to the Obama decision. One is that the release of the memos “tips our hand” to terrorists so that they can better prepare against interrogation techniques. When they know our methods precisely, they can better develop counters to them.
I think there is something to this concern, but only so much; presumably, one can develop counter-techniques to the counters, and so on, and so on. Even people who know exactly what they are getting into and exactly how far the interrogator will go, report that some techniques like water-boarding are so effective that there is essentially no plausible counter.
I am far more persuaded by the second objection: that the release of the memos will spur further witch-hunts which will produce an over-cautious intelligence and national security establishment. President Obama worried about this, and that is why he took pains to say he would not prosecute intelligence professionals who acted on the basis and within the limits of the guidance in these memos. But he left open the door to go after those who went beyond the memos, and that, of course, legitimizes more fact-finding to determine exactly what was done by whom. That is how Senator Leahy, who is keen to conduct such investigations, read Obama’s statement. But, as Hayden and Mukasey remind us, the bureaucratic response to such open-ended investigations is predictable: national security professionals will be even more cautious and even more reluctant to act going forward. Will such hesitation put America at risk? Candidate Obama repeatedly said that Bush policies made America less safe. If there is another terrorist attack, and if that attack can be traced to government failures due to an over-abundance of hesitation, will the charge apply to President Obama as well? What is your view?
I oppose speed limits because they make drivers too cautious. Why have any laws, really, since all they do is induce caution in otherwise law-abiding citizens?
These “intelligence professionals” know goddamn well that waterboarding someone six times a day for a month constitutes torture. What would caution mean here, that you only waterboard him twice a day?
joe from Lowell
This doesn’t make any sense, because these techniques have been banned. That’s the point.
Yes, THAT’S THE POINT!
That thing you keep talking about, where the interrogators won’t torture people because these memos were put out – THAT’S THE POINT.
Keith G
Doug, step away from the Post. Go find a puppy to snuggle. You’ll thank me later.
kommrade reproductive vigor
Heaven forbid we have intelligence agents who are so cautious they don’t torture prisoners! Gosh, if only there were a book or list of rules or something about interrogating prisoners …
cleek
i am always impressed by the amount of GOP cock some people are willing to swallow.
sgwhiteinfla
See this is that cockamamie bullshit they use to try to cover for Bush’s ass about 9-11. Well there WAS at least one person in the intelligence services who was aggressive about al queda BEFORE 9-11 and that was Richard Freakin Clarke. The problem wasn’t that the intelligence services weren’t sufficiently aggressive. The fucking President wasn’t listening and the agencies weren’t talking to each other. And for his trouble Clarke got shitcanned after we got hit because they ignored him. And then the media just eats the Bushies bullshit memes up lock stock and barrel as if all of that went down the memory hole. I guarantee you that on every Sunday show the host will give time to some dickhead who will argue that either this wasn’t torture and or releasing the memos was the wrong move. And I am positive David Gregory will be quoting Mukasey and Mullen extensively. Such is the state of journalism in this country.
Fencedude
Oh god I hope thats his real name.
Thats FANTASTIC.
mvr
I wish we had had caution here. They incautiously did a bunch of stuff that damaged our national standing. We need to get what we can of it back. Releasing the memos and making clear we’re not going further down that road is what we are stuck doing given the lack of caution paranoia on the part of the Bush justice department occasioned.
demkat620
What you people don’t understand is 183rd time’s the charm.
Wussies.
Xecklothxayyquou Gilchrist
As somebody put it, “Now that I know you’re going to shoot at me, bullets can no longer hurt me.”
Was that someone here?
Jungle Jil
Overcautious in what way? Does he think that it will change other non-torture-related intelligence-gathering activities? If CIA agents know that they will get in trouble for torturing people, will they curtail their monitoring of Jihadi internet activities? If CIA agents know that they can’t put a prisoner in a freezer will they stop watching terrorist bank accounts?
That’s more like saying “I oppose speed limits because they make people brush their teeth too much.”
WereBear
We have journalism in this country?
I don’t know which annoys me more; how idiotic the GOP apologists are, or how idiotic they assume I must be.
This shouldn’t be a contentious issue; torture is both wrong and counter-productive. But unlike the economic effects of Bush policies, I wonder if the current administration isn’t realizing that it hasn’t really sunk into some of the electorate.
Releasing the memos is a good step in that direction.
The Tim Channel
Prima facie.
Enjoy.
merl
Or, they could just read the Chicom manuals that we based our torture techniques from.
OOPs, I just gave away the secret.
eastriver
On the afternoon of 9/11/01, my wife and I walked down to our local hospital to give blood. We live in NYC, and figured they would need blood for all the people everyone thought were going to be found in the fallen towers. We were told by the hospital staff that they already had enough blood. So much blood they didn’t have any place to keep it cold.
On the way home my wife and I talked about the ramifications of what happened that morning. I predicted that the 2 Big Issues for the next couple of years were going to be torture and surveillance. Those are the things we were going to be debating. How much freedom to give up.
Little did I know that there wouldn’t even be a debate.
Little did I fucking know.
JK
The Washington Post is going down for the count.
OT – Priceless Photo of Norm Coleman
http://campaignsilo.firedoglake.com/2009/04/17/franken-coleman-update-041709-drag-watch-day-three/
wilfred
In the midst of all this, Swat Valley in Pakistan has adapted shariah. This is the same Valley that was once a vegetable sanctuary on the hippie trail.
At least one reason for that has been the endless drone-dropped bombs that have killed hundreds of innocent people, many of them children, and news reports like people being water-boarded 183 times.
You get what you pay for. None of the water pourers will ever see justice, nor will the bomb droppers. Oh, and Obama continued authorization of the drone project, which has resulted in at least 30 dead children on his watch.
But get pissed off at the Washington Post.
Comrade Michael "Uh Huh Mofo" Brown
Rarely seen a better headline from you, Doug.
Maybe “an over-cautious intelligence and national security establishment” wouldn’t have sat still while an idiot president ignored a memo entitled “Bin Laden Determined to Attack Inside US”.
Maybe “an over-cautious intelligence and national security establishment” would have stood up and objected when pliant legal hacks authorized torture.
Maybe “an over-cautious intelligence and national security establishment” is just what we need.
FUCK these people. Fuck them all.
geg6
The drumbeat continues but I don’t think they’ve got the rhythm down anymore. They’re half crazed with fear and desperation and just praying they can spin this their way. And the Village, as always, happily goes along. But the country isn’t the Village any more, if it ever was. I say they’re going down, one way or another. As with so many other issues like the war and and Katrina and Schiavo, they can’t be trusted. They have no credibility with the public and the public will settle the issue. And I don’t doubt that was Obama’s intention in releasing the memos in the first place.
JoyceH
I would far rather have a CIA, and in fact an entire government, that was ‘cautious’ than one that is batshit insane, which is what we had for eight long horrifying years.
And let’s not even pretend they believed this was legal. NO professional interrogators were involved in putting this ‘program’ together, because the professional interrogators know that torture doesn’t work.
Nor do I really believe that the amateurs they had create this program, and the people giving the orders to create it, were in a state of years-long panic induced by 9/11, because if they were, they WOULD have asked the PROS, ‘what works best to get timely, actionable intel?’
This happened because a proven sadist was sitting in the Oval Office, and a deeply evil man was pulling his strings.
At the time Abu Ghraib first made headlines, when it was pinned on ‘a few bad apples on the night shift’, I said then that when you’re doing something you even suspect your boss would disapprove of, you don’t do it in the hall, and you sure as heck don’t photograph it!
Why the photographs, after all?
I’ve always strongly suspected that if there’d ever been a way to execute a no-notice search warrant on the Oval Office, we would have found copies of those Abu Ghraib photos, both the ones printed in the media and the ones Rumsfeld and the Senators who saw them called, ‘too awful to release’, and the photos would have been frayed around the edges from repeated long and loving scrutiny.
HitlerWorshippingPuppyKicker
Well, let’s see. 911 happened after an overabundance of hesitation on the part of the president to do anything when his intelligence had warned him that it was imminent.
So we ratcheted up the intelligence using torture to make us “safer.”
What’s amusing to me is that these pundits … who strike me as being about as hip to the realities of intelligence and terrorism as a new McDonalds counter person is hip to the nutritional aspects of crispy versus grilled chicken …… think that the public is too stupid to figure out that none of these guys know what the fock they are talking about.
gwangung
What’s not so amusing is that they might be right.
*sigh*
HitlerWorshippingPuppyKicker
@gwangung:
Maybe, but my hunch is that last year proves them wrong.
Otherwise we might be looking at President McCain.
Which reminds me … where is the old geezer on this torture memo thing?
JK
Rush Limbaugh: Torture Works Because McCain Admitted He Was ‘Broken By The North Vietnamese’
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/18/limbaugh-torture-works-be_n_188633.html
Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, and Glenn Beck are driving the Republican Party off the cliff.
HitlerWorshippingPuppyKicker
@JK:
So, we can expect Limbaugh’s apology to McCain any time now?
sgwhiteinfla
Here is the fucked up thing, liberal and progressive bloggers will at least stand up for McCain against Limbaugh’s attack even if its only a lukewarm response. But try to find any wingnut blogger willing to refute or rebuke Limbaugh over this. They don’t exist. I doubt even the less wingnutty crowd like Frum will call Limbaugh out for such a disgusting attack from a man who didn’t even have the balls to get in the military. The truth is Joe Scarborough has alluded to the very same thing as Limbaugh before wrt torture. Of course if Keith Olberman had EVER said the same thing the wingnuts would be calling for him to be fired and boycotting MSNBC studios.
A Squirrel
I really, really hate these people. It speaks very poorly of a society that affords any measure of respect to these sadistic fvcks.
I don’t know about our species sometimes.
Xenos
It is depressing to realize more that 1/4 of the country are unreedemable assholes. I guess the only issue for the rest of us is finding ways to make sure they are beaten down and divided for as long as possible – to make ruining life for the neotards the primary goal of our politics, just like they made bullying the DFHs their primary goal and value.
Olliander
You really have no concept of what “intelligence agents” do in the field, and the environment in which they do it, do you?
If you did, you’d know that second guessing yourself in the field is not exactly conducive to accurate intelligence gathering, but the President has basically left the CIA little alternative.
This was purely a political move by a White House that is clearly partisan. If it wasn’t, the DOJ would be forging ahead with prosecuting the alleged torturers, and in a related move, wouldn’t have made themselves immune to lawsuits on wiretapping. Apparently, listening in on American citizens communications is very bad for Republicans, but a-ok for Democrats.
Fencedude
@Olliander:
So which intelligence agency do YOU work for?
Xecklothxayyquou Gilchrist
@Olliander: This was purely a political move by a White House that is clearly partisan.
I refer you to the post title.
sgwhiteinfla
Yeah Olliander, school all of us with your VAST knowledge about all things having to do with intelligence agents.
gwangung
@Olliander:
There’s skill involved in trolling that requires at least some surface plausibility.
You should work on it.
sgwhiteinfla
Marcy Wheeler is frikkin on FIRE today. Now she debunks the “half of the info we got was from torture” meme.
http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/04/18/debunking-the-torture-apologists-half-the-intelligence-claim/#more-3968
joe from Lowell
That was just lame, Olliander. It didn’t even make sense.
Ash
@joe from Lowell:
What these assholes have made a point to mention, from what I’ve noticed, is something along the lines of, “What if a president later on wants to reinstate them, huh? WHAT’S HE GONNA DO HUH? Obama fucked it up for future presidents!!!!!!11!!!!1!!!!”
bago
What the f. Conservatards in bum f Egypt have nothing on the people who gave blood in downtown cities everywhere.
sgwhiteinfla
I am now fully convinced that all MSM journalists are thin skinned pricks.
poopsybythebay
Olliander has no idea what intelligence officers do because he is unable to see the outside world from his parents basement.
bago
Sorry, at a party with the people I was with around then.
bago
Did I mention that involved Lebenese sisters and a gay black man downtown?
Eric U.
a significant number of our GI deaths in Iraq were because of torture. We had no fucking business torturing Iraqis, but there we were. And torture was instrumental in bringing the nutcases into the country and killing our soldiers.
J. Michael Neal
From the memo:
The postmodernization of the Republican party continues. I thought these guys were opposed to moral relativism.
DFS
Also worth noting: a “witch hunt,” by definition, involves the pursuit of people who are not actually guilty. As opposed to the situation we should have here, where people who are manifestly guilty as fucking sin should be hauled into the dock.
Dennis-SGMM
Never, to my recollection, have members of the preceding administration been so willing to criticize the current president. From Cheney on down to the lowest ball-licker, the pack of blundering fools known as the Bush administration has whined ceaselessly about nearly every decision made by the Obama administration almost from day one. If Bushco had one solid achievement, one instance of demonstrated competence, then they might have the stature to question someone else’s judgment. They don’t and their failures are going to affect this country for years. Serious criticism from people who know what they’re talking about is fine. Hand wringing and bitching from people who could fuck up an anvil in a sandbox is just plain lame. The media ought to give them a rest.
TenguPhule
Yes, because our CIA obviously tortures every contact they have in the field because it gets such good intelligence.
Hello, this stuff was happening on site at AMERICAN CONTROLLED PRISONS. Shit us not with the bull.
We need a simple citizenship test for this country.
Torturing Prisoners, (Yay or Nay?)
All Yays will be dropped into a vat full of sharks with freaking laser beams mounted on their heads.
TenguPhule
Is it a witchhunt when all of the fucking witches are brandishing their broomsticks and screaming “Curse you and your little Portugal water dog too”?
MikeJ
I really can’t see how intel agents in the field would get confused. All they need to do is ask, “Would we invade a country that did this to an American citizen?”
Jrod
How will our poor intelligence agents know if it’s ok to unleash rabid dogs on their contacts? How will they know if their situation calls for drowning people? Obviously the best idea is to make anything they do de facto legal, because it’d be just awful if our intel guys got stressed out.
Jrod
Oh ho @sgwhiteinfla:
I’m glad Dana Milbank is no longer lying to himself.
Lesley
Effective at what?
Eventually, if not right way, the waterboardee will say anything his torturer wants to hear to make the pain stop. He will make shit up because he has to. This is effective in dictatorships that don’t give a rat’s ass about the truth.
Oh wait, I forgot Bush was The Decider.
trizzlor
@Dennis-SGMM: One thing I’ll grant Bush is that he’s been very decent in this regard and withheld his criticism (including very recently). Likewise, the Obama White House has stated that Bush was very open on the way out and repeatedly said he wished them the best.
Of course, Cheney has made up for all this good will in spades.
Jrod
@Lesley:
It’s particularly effective when all you want is a confession.
What’s that, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed? After being waterboarded several times a day for six months you claim to be the mastermind behind 9/11, Bali, the fucking shoe-bomber, the disappearance of those left socks, the cancellation of Firefly, the kidnapping of Santa Claus, and pretty much every bad thing that’s happened in the last 10 years. Ok, we’ll let the New York Times know, and we’ll consider drowning you less from now on.
Right… He was obviously in al Qaeda, but who really knows what the fuck he did. After the torture he’s been through, I seriously doubt he knows anymore either.
angulimala
Waterboarding Shmaterboarding.
Everyone focuses on waterboarding.
Sleep deprivation is probably the most widespread torture we used and it can be agonizing after even 2-3 days.
J. Michael Neal
Really? Then waterboarding is too good for him.
Common Sense
Baptist Pastor beat to a pulp and tazered by Arizona DPS.
Youtube here.
Land of the free, baby.
Lesley
@Jrod:
That’s what I was getting at. Torture-extracted confessions aren’t worth the tape they are recorded on.
What’s even more galling about the torture of Al Quaeda subjects – and who knows who else – is Bush is on record months after 9/11 saying bin Laden had stopped being a priority, that he wasn’t concerned about him anymore.
Jrod
@Lesley: Of course, those “confessions” were taken completely seriously by the media. Just like every other transparently bullshit story their “administration official who wishes to remain anonymous” fed them.
Dynlisia
The caution that’s being referred to has nothing to do with torture or interrogation. What they mean is that when an intelligence operative would normally have gone Jack Bauer and pull off some crazy stuff to save the country, they will now feel restraint because they might get prosecuted for their actions. And then the smuggled-in nuke will go off and we’ll all die.
Yes, I’m being facetious, but I think there is some merit to these sentiment for sure. Obama thought so as well, clearly, but look at the choice here: Not release the memos and be a dirty hypocritical country for sure without much of a moral base to stand on with this subject, or, release the memos and ‘potentially’ induce ‘potentially’ counterproductive caution in intelligence officials.
I would have picked the first choice as well, but I think saying this was a no-brainer from the start is very naieve.
JGabriel
You know, the idea that people would be more “reluctant” to torture in the future is, oddly, a consequence I think I could live with.
Fucking jackasses.
.
Johnny Pez
Let’s see, that’s thirty-five outraged normal people and one dumbass fuckstick.
If only the proportions were the same in the rest of the country.
gil mann
This may seem counterintuitive, but it’s not really a “witch-hunt” if you’re going after actual practitioners of the dark arts.
MR Bill
Well, we have it from the WaPo’s Richard Cohen that “This is not an entirely trivial matter since government officials should not lie to grand juries, but neither should they be called to account for practicing the dark art of politics. As with sex or real estate, it is often best to keep the lights off.”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/18/AR2007061801366.html?hpid=opinionsbox1
From the Washington Insider point of view, of course we can’t have an investigation, as much of the Republican and Intelligence establishments are compromised, as well as plenty of Dems like Feinstein and Reid. I’m not sanguine about the chances of getting prosecutions for these crimes soon. I note that the World Court is just now getting around to the Cambodian Genocide. If we can begin investigations, and reestablish the US ties to international justice organizations, we might just see prosecutions.
The first step is to take out hacks like Judge Bybee (sp?) and John Yoo, and to document the atrocities.
Milbank’s snideness comes from the realization that his industry is dying, and that he haa too much stick up his butt to be a good court jester..His columns (like the ‘whine ratings’ column mocking anyone who suggested his version (from an anonymous source, natch) of an unrecorded Obama talk sounded like it was from a Republican operative, as it and the column in question set forth the “arrogant Obama” meme) are about defending Inside Washington. Here’s Media Matters evisceration of that spewing… http://mediamatters.org/items/200808010004
cosanostradamus
.
I never learned to scuba. I think I’ll stay ever and anon.
.
kommrade reproductive vigor
@Olliander: First of all, I’d like to thank you for hitting pause on your 24 DVD, washing your hands, pulling up your pants and waddling over to your computer. Now to answer your question: Yes I do. Now go get another sock.
Balconesfault
My God – a read of that blogpost … and of about 30% of the comments … is enought scare the holy crap out of me.
A competition between:
– the idea that asking someone who repeatedly slams someone’s face against the wall why they did it would destroy our national security …
– the idea that if you let the bad guys know that they’ll have their faces smashed against the wall repeatedly, they’ll somehow be trained to have their faces smashed against the wall repeatedly without giving up bad guy information … and
– the proposition that “f*** it, they’re (allegedly) bad guys, who cares if someone has to slam their face against the wall a few times to get them to confess to being bad guys?”
Balconesfault
@Dennis-SGMM:
Yeah – and when is the mainstream media going to start running with this realization?
The village practically went into apoplexy when 3 years after December 2000, Al Gore had the temerity to suggest that George Bush was “crossing the Rubicon” with some of his illegal actions. Cheney can come after Obama with a tire iron, and the media makes a bigger deal about someone in Obama’s administration snarking about Cheney than about the original attack.
Xecklothxayyquou Gilchrist
@Dynlisia: The caution that’s being referred to has nothing to do with torture or interrogation. What they mean is that when an intelligence operative would normally have gone Jack Bauer and pull off some crazy stuff to save the country, they will now feel restraint because they might get prosecuted for their actions.
And “going Jack Bauer” has nothing to do with torture or interrogations, right.
Yes, I’m being facetious, but I think there is some merit to these sentiment for sure.
I agree, except for the part about the merit. Seriously, there is no reason to legalize torture.
Kirk Spencer
@Olliander:
Actually, I do know some of what intelligence agents (and why the scare quotes, anyway?) do in the field, and the environment in which they do it.
They second guess themselves a lot. There’s a pretty good reason for this – intelligence is developed through patience. Patient observation and conversation, passing along anything that might be relevant – and oh God you hope you didn’t ignore something that’s actually important. Somewhere up the chain, people compare what you’ve found to what a bunch of other people found, and you might get a message back to keep an eye out for this or that.
Wham, Bam, break an arm and get the whole plot Just Does Not Happen. It’s rare – or it used to be – that we could get complete and unfettered control of people who might know what’s going on. And when we do…
What we do now ensures we cannot turn them, and because of the failure rate of torture we cannot trust what we get.
So I’m sorry, Olliander, but I’m afraid that with the exception of some cowboys it’s you who are displaying ignorance of ‘in the field’.
Enlightened Layperson
So far as I can tell, what Hayden and others like him are saying is that we should give up all attempt to impose any sort of rules or constraints on intelligence agency and effectively tell them to keep us safe and don’t tell us how. That we will only be safe with a rogue agency answerable only to the President “protecting” us.
Well, I don’t trust either rogue agencies or the Presidents who command them. And it surpasses belief that, even in the shadowy world of intelligence, a few simple rules like “don’t hold people in secret prisons for years on end for purposes of torture” would be so vague and open-ended as to paralyze the agency altogether.
Corner Stone
@eastriver:
WTF are you talking about? A debate? Fuck you. There’s no debate regarding how many of my rights a coward is willing to give up so Daddy can keep him safe.
Corner Stone
@bago:
Color me intrigued. Please, do go on.
Wile E. Quixote
Oh Jesus, more wankstains like Olliander wanking about how rough, manly men need to defend them roughly and manfully in the night, against those other rough men out there. Look Olliander, why don’t you just admit that you’re queer for Jack Bauer and fantasize about being captured by him, wrestled to the ground and sodomized until you give up the truth about the right-wing closet case terrorist group that you belong to instead of pretending that you know anything about how intelligence agents operate in the field.
Jack D. Ripper
“Fuck your RIGHT’S”. I like breathing. NOBAMA
Cataphract
Can I say something?
The media asking former Bush officials on how they feel about the new administration opening up the torture memos is akin to asking former Nazi officials on how post-war Germany turned out. An imaginary interview:
Media: “Former SS Colonel Kleinschwanz-Scheisskopf, you were an officer in the SS during the war and engaged in some hard decisions like do we wipe out that village or not, prisoners or no prisoners? Now that democracy reigns in Germany, how do you think that affects German security?”
A ridiculous conversation would follow. And everybody would know it was ridiculous. Same thing here.
What fucking bullshit indeed.
JohnR
Thanks for the rant! Unfortunately the comments here are composed of 90% preaching to the choir and 10% rotten-brain slime. It boils down to this, as you noted in the column: why does society have rules and laws? Admittedly, there is always a tension that comes from “when is it acceptable to break those rules and laws?”. Shoot, you can’t drive 5 minutes without seeing somebody breaking a traffic law, often right in front of a cop, and unless there’s an actual wreck (and sometimes even if there is) there’s generally no reaction or consequences. We live in a society any more where laws basically apply only if you feel like obeying them, which means that less than half of us actually obey more than a small fraction of laws on a day-to-day basis. Obviously, this is all the fault of FDR and those Godless liberals. Incidentally, I wonder why the 10 Commandments were written down in the first place?
As for torture, the effectiveness or lack of it, while germane, really isn’t the issue. The issue is, what is the cost we pay for doing this (and we all pay it whether we want to or not)? You would think that these loudly pious Christians would actually ponder this; that they don’t seem to care is one more indication that they don’t follow Jesus at all, but are stuck way back in the Old Testament books where the Chosen People must do whatever they need to to eradicate all threats (women and children naturally included). That those Chosen People do not in fact include them doesn’t seem to have crossed anyone’s mind.
LiberalTarian
OK, fine, I’ve been gone, responding to the original post:
What they seem to be saying is, “Omigod. Someone who is responsible, made the gawdawful decisions to break the law and act like monsters, not weak and helpless who were held captive and broken, will pay. Oh the humanity!”
Fuck ’em. Send ’em to prison, where they belong.
RememberNovember
Honestly if this were post-war Germany these guys would be purged in the Hague- but our self-ingesting Oroboros political machine won’t do the right thing for fear of the next admin doing the same. Why won’t these clowns man up and do the right thing and set an example for the world? It has been said time and again that torture produces no reputable intelligence ( and coincidentally torturers provide no reputable intelligence either)
Stalin- tortured
Pol Pot- tortured ( perfector of the waterboard technique)
Idi Amin- tortured
Saddam Hussein – tortured ( dangling feet over woodchipper a favorite)
George Bush- tortured
notice anything?
Ktd
It seems relatively obvious that those officials who went well beyond their rights–even beyond the Bush administration’s established rights–to torture illegally deserve to be punished. And, in the very least, their crimes should be known by the American people who they are supposed to serve. As many others have pointed out over the past few days, these techniques have been criticized, correctly speculated on and publicized for years. Therefore, the official release of the memos is just that–the official release/the proof. But it is not the only source of such tortures that the American public has received. Therefore, any such claims as to the destructiveness/anti-security of these memos becomes less plausible. Still, many are debating the issue. Granted, security concerns are a must. But they have been going on for years. I watched an interesting video on all of this at newsy.com today. It’s worth watching:
http://www.newsy.com/videos/making_sense_of_the_memos/