Michigan Attorney General Mike Cox, a Republican, finally fired his deputy Andrew Shirvell yesterday. Shirvell is the guy who started a blog about University of Michigan student body president Chris Armstrong, who is gay, which called Armstrong “Satan’s representative” and accused him of hosting gay orgies. Shirvell also showed up at Armstrong’s house three times, including once at 1:30 AM, called Armstrong’s employer repeatedly to slander Armstrong in an attempt to get him fired, and harassed Armstrong’s friends.
Shirvell was profiled on the Daily Show last week, where he said he was simply exercising his First Amendment rights and said there was nothing immoral about comparing Armstrong to a gay Nazi. Judging from that interview, my guess is that Shirvell is going to launch the mother of all employment lawsuits and that his case will be in the courts for years.
c u n d gulag
Of couse he’ll sue. He’s the aggrieved party after all, not the poor SOB he harassed.
Over/under:
How much time before we find this guy with a load of meth in the hotel room of his gay lover?
I say spring time.
russell
dude’s got issues.
300baud
I’m glad he got canned and humiliated on national TV; that level of meanness and cluelessness merits a certain amount of karmic balancing.
But I also feel bad for him. He’s so thoroughly closeted he’s been driven insane by the conflict between his desires and his nutbar religion. It’s just sad.
Anya
I hope Armstrong is careful. This nut Shirvell, is obsessed with him. I think he is a closet case with deep seated self hatred. But seriously, Shirvell and Cox?
toujoursdan
I’m not sure if it’s religion as much as an apparent case of Asperger’s Syndrome.
Tattoosydney
This is OT and already posted in the cat thread, but I’ll drop it in here anyway on the basis this counts as a gay open thread. Look, Satan and orgies and arseholes all in one post!
This makes me want to scream – Signorile speaks to gay/bisexual men who voted republican.
As one of the commenters paraphrases and then comments:
HeartlandLiberal
Meanwhile, here is hoping Armstrong sues for harassment, stalking, and threats.
Perhaps a condition of settlement could be that Shirvell is required to get the psychotherapy he so clearly needs to deal with what must be one really f*cked up psycho-sexual neurotic jungle in his mind.
Anya
@300baud: Nothing is more virulent than self hatred. He is similar to black teapaggers.
Tattoosydney
Good god. I hadn’t seen the Stewart clip.
I want to hate Mr Deputy Attorney General Shirvel, but the moment of stark staring terror on his face at about 2.45 in the clip almost makes me feel sorry for the sad, pathetic, evil little man.
MAJeff
One thing I think is relevant is that Shirvell isn’t really outside the mainstream when it comes to membership in the Christian Right. He worked for Cox’s campaigns and he’s being represented by the folks at the Alliance Defense Fund. He should be the face of the movement for no other reason than he’s wiped away the happy smiley face. He’s really no different than Maggie Gallagher, Tony Perkins, Brian Brown, George Rekers, or Michele Bachman.
Comrade Baron Elmo
Good to see that everyone seems in agreement that Shirvell is one major fucking closet case. Certainly the most cursory glimpse at the Daily Show interview made that obvious. He makes Lindsay Graham look like Charles Bronson.
I’d dearly love to know Shirvell’s true motivation for his psychopathic actions… unrequited love gone nuclear, that’s a good guess.
Omnes Omnibus
@Tattoosydney: If one happened to be gay, if one happened to agree with the Republican agenda aside from its gay rights bit, and if one was convinced that the Democrats were not going to do anything other than talk on the issue of gay rights, it might be reasonable to look at voting Republican. Otherwise, no so much. I personally would have issues with a party that consider me, as part of its platform, to be an abomination. I also think that the Democrats have been making progress (not enough) on gay rights. Of course, I am a straight, white, nominally Christian, educated man of obvious Northern European descent, so I really know nothing about being oppressed (seriously).
Linda Featheringill
Free speech? This should be enough to get him fired, even without the blog.
Downpuppy
I have enough faith in the courts to assume that his case will be tossed in the first hearing.
Snayke
Anyone can see that Mr. Shirvell is a closeted homosexual and I hope it doesn’t drive him to violence.
Larry Signor
Assistant AG Shirvell’s anti-gay rants could cost him license
Ash Can
@Snayke: This. The guy’s seriously scary, and if he doesn’t get professional help sorting himself out, the ultimate outcome would likely be somewhere between tragic and catastrophic.
gene108
@Omnes Omnibus:
The Democrats had made progress on a lot of issues, in the 111th Congress, but unfortunately for many people in the liberal coalition, it wasn’t doing enough quickly enough, because they didn’t overturn 30 years of Reaganomics overnight.
Tattoosydney
@Omnes Omnibus:
This exactly. I can’t understand the idea that my wallet would outweigh the fact that the person I am voting for thinks both that I am going to hell and that I don’t deserve the same rights as everyone else just because I am gay.
I agree. I’m conflicted because I do want our governments to do much more – here in Australia our left wing leader of a centre left government propped up by greens and independents firmly declares that marriage will remain between a man and a woman, and I get angry.
At least here I have the option to vote Green all the way down the ticket. Most of you guys don’t seem to have woken up to that option yet.
I’m a gay, white, ex-Catholic, educated man of obvious European descent. Frankly, I don’t know that much about oppression either.
pharniel
this nutjob best be careful, as he has essentially violated michiagan’s anti-stalking laws.
his wrongful termination lawsuit will be short lived and thrown out of court if cox can prove he even sent one harrasing e-mail from work.
cox is still a republican, and if shrivell goes after his old boss it’s going to be a bloodbath as the entire apparatus of government comes crashing down on his head.
so yha, i’ll take May for when he’s found with his gay lover rolling in
methcat.Anya
@Tattoosydney: That guy was not even the worst of it, at least he’s intent to vote for the Repubs was naively, to send a message to the Dems. The other caller who voted for the homophobic teabagger governor in Maine was worse. He voted Republican because Dems were spending money and he does “not vote only on gay issues”. So the asshole, was ok with repubs spending billions on an illegal war, but he’s devastated to the point that he is sacrificing his civil rights, because the Dems spent money, to get the country out of the ditch that GWB drove us into! Just incredible. Michelangelo was so astounded, that he asked “you would vote against your own civil rights OVER money?” The greedy asshole, said: Yes.
Napoleon
Gezz, the only Daily Show from last week I did not watch on my DVR was this one, which I erased last night. Now I am sorry I did.
MattF
That man’s got a bad case of something. And there’s a lot of that going around, these days…
Linda Featheringill
@Snayke:
Obsession.
The man had a career that I assume had some promise to it. You would think that the AG office had some interesting issues come through. Shirvell could have thrown himself into his work. He could have become an expert on some of these issues. He could have been busy and engaged and even rewarded. He could have prospered. He wouldn’t have needed to change his opinions about anything. He just needed to let that particular young man go.
But Shirvell threw it all away. That is sad.
But I do wonder about violence. In male-on-female stalking, violence is always a possibility. This case probably isn’t different in that regard.
Blue Neponset
@Tattoosydney: Instead of dismissing these people as idiots maybe you and the Democratic Party should try to understand what motivates these people to vote against their own interests.
Nick
@Omnes Omnibus:
and yet you have that dude in Maine who voted for the Republicans, including the tea party gubernatorial candidate, despite the fact Democrats in the state actually delivered on equality.
What incentive do Democrats have now if they’re going to face more ire from the opposition than support from the supporters?
Woodrowfan
@Ash Can:
I’m thinking he’s not far from violence already…. He is not a well man…
Nick
@Blue Neponset:
they’re stupid. What other excuse can there be?
Omnes Omnibus
@gene108: I know and I agree. I was just trying to figure out how someone might think in order to vote R because the Ds don’t do well enough on gay rights issues.
David
It’s Shirvell’s peculiar version “pulling a girl’s pigtails because he likes her.”
MAJeff
@Nick:
This is a point I’ve tried to make: If you flee, all you’re telling the Dems is that we aren’t reliable. It’s not sending the message “take us seriously,” it’s sending the message, “we’re fickle and not worth the effort.”
Tattoosydney
Mr “with my partner 16 years and going to adopt”. Ugh.
And Signorile very politely slaps him down, without even needing to ask “What the fuck were you implying there, you nasty little arse?”
Douglas
@Tattoosydney:
No, more like, these guys don’t HAVE that option, thanks to the winner-takes-all election system making voting for anyone except one of the two strongest parties usually a wasted vote (with very rare exceptions).
Dustin
@Blue Neponset: Quite frankly any nominally liberal person who voted straight Republican in this election is an idiot. That’s the explanation.
It’s the same BS I deal with every time I discuss evolutionary biology with my fundie relatives, or try to explain to them that “no, atheism =/= immoral hedonist”. Sometimes people’s actions have no other explanation except idiocy. Sure we can get into the motives behind their behavior, but it doesn’t answer the root cause.
Omnes Omnibus
@Tattoosydney: Dude, you just got front paged. Congrats.
alwhite
On gay Republicans:
There were a surprising number of Jews that supported the Nazi Party in the early days (no, I am not Godwining the GOP, just making an analogy based on people supporting those that wish them ill).
They did so because they thought that party was a bulwark against Communism, because it deflected the “Jewish Communist conspiracy theory” away from them and because they didn’t think the party really meant to do them harm, they only intended to use antisemitism as an election device. With a minor adjustment I think that could explain the Log Cabin Republicans nicely.
Hal
@Tattoosydney
Two of these guys were from Kentucky and one from Maine. Does anyone think there are enough gays in Kentucky to make any difference in the electorate? Even in Maine I would doubt it, and it’s not like Kentucky has been a swing state. It’s solid red.
States that have the largest, and most active gay populations also tend to me the most liberal leaning, and those queens aren’t voting Republican in any significant number.
What kills me as a gay man is the bullshit from some in the community that Obama is the same as the Republicans, because he hasn’t achieved all the goals he has stating he supports.
Meanwhile, the GOP is saying absolutely not to all of those goals. No marriage, no end to DADT and DOMA, and no ENDA. Period. There is a difference there.
It’s the bullshit, “lesser of two evils argument.” Hitler vs Stalin is a lesser of two evils. Palin vs Gingrich. Lesser of two evils.
Obama/Dems vs Palin/Romney et all is not a lesser of two evils. It’s sanity and a pretty god damned great chance at equality (faster Dems, please, faster) than no equality at all.
Tattoosydney
@Blue Neponset:
I ain’t got no responsibility for the Democratic Party or those idiots. They are your idiots. We have our own bunch of idiots over here.
Some people are misguided, and yes, we need to listen to them and educate them and live with them and make the arguments for the things we believe in every day so that eventually they believe in our rights as much as we do. We need to teach people like my mother (bless her) to stop thinking of gays as alien and wrong and start thinking of them as she now does, as my son and my son in law and my friends.
Change will come slowly. We are the unstoppable force of history and together with our families and our friends and our workmates we will eventually change the world, no matter how many politicians disappoint us or fuck us over.
However, there will always be venal, unpleasant and/or stupid gay men and women (and other men and women) who will support the forces of hate because otherwise they might have to pay more taxes so sick people can get medical treatment and their trash can be collected, or because they’ve already got theirs and don’t give a shit what it’s like to be an Afghanistani boat person or a single unemployed mother, or because they last current affairs show they watched featured 15 minutes about Britney Spears’ latest tummy tuck and they voted for Rand Paul because Obama is so two years ago, or they didn’t get everything they wanted right now and they want to send a message by voting for people who want to fuck every gay person over repeatedly and would strip away every single right we have if they had their way, or because asians or hispanics are taking away that lucrative fruit picking job they had their eye on, or just because they are nasty and fucked up inside.
Frankly, fuck them. Arseholes.
Sputnik_Sweetheart
Slander and libel is not free speech.
Tattoosydney
@Douglas:
I love you guys, but your political system is fucked up.
aimai
@Woodrowfan:
I couldn’t agree more. Cox should have had the sense to fire him directly for being a loose cannon, unable to behave appropriately. I hope Mr. Armstrong is getting some serious protection because Shirvell has the potential to go as nuts as the guy who travelled across the country killing people and ended up in FL killing Versace.
This has nothing to do with Freedom of Speech, although some of the commenters who are pro this lunatic over at the Ann Arbor paper still don’t get it. Targeting, stalking, and harrassing another person is incredibly dangerous behavior. No company or organization could or should tolerate that kind of behavior in an employee. It puts everyone at risk.
aimai
Tattoosydney
@Omnes Omnibus:
Yay myself! Thanks.
ppcli
@MAJeff:
“One thing I think is relevant is that Shirvell isn’t really outside the mainstream when it comes to membership in the Christian Right. He worked for Cox’s campaigns and he’s being represented by the folks at the Alliance Defense Fund. ”
Yes, yes, 100 times yes. Can’t be said often enough. This guy didn’t just happen to be hired by Cox, the AG who previously notched such “accomplishments” as successfully suing the U of M. to force them to stop offering domestic partner benefits. (Happily, U. of M., as it happens, knows the phone numbers of a few good lawyers – don’t even need to dial “9” for an outside line, in fact- and easily crafted a new plan that would hold legal water.) This was just after Michigan passed a “no gay marriage” referendum that was crafted very broadly. People pointed out that the law was broad enough that it could threaten domestic partner benefits. The proponents put on a mass of ads calling these claims “scare tactics” and insisting “it’s not about benefits, it’s about the definition of marriage”. Within a week of the referendum passing, Cox’s office launched the suit, the speed making it clear that they had been preparing the case quietly all the while. Not breathing a hint, of course, since that would undercut the message. Greasy little weasels.
The fact that this guy is rabidly anti-gay, Ave Maria law school grad, and a lunatic in other ways too, was a feature for Cox, not a bug. Cox defended him at first, until it became clear even to him that Shirvell was an embarrassment. A political liability. Because he was making it too obvious what they are all about.
kay
He’s truly unhinged and obsessed and he should probably welcome the chance to address his mental health issues without the distraction (and danger to others) of his serving as a prosecutor while he does that.
I have some sympathy for him. He’s either nuts or he was used by cynical conservatives, but he needs help.
“Powerful” and “crazy” are not a good combo.
Tattoosydney
@Hal:
Yep. Everything you said.
burnspbesq
@Blue Neponset:
We understand it completely. It’s commonly known as stupidity.
burnspbesq
@ppcli:
That tells me everything I need to know about this guy. Tom Monaghan has to answer for two enormous crimes against humanity: Ave Maria Law School and Domino’s Pizza.
Michael D.
I’m in agreement that Shirvell is a complete fucking moron, but statements like these make me fucking seethe.
@Snayke:
How? Explain how you “Anyone can see” that he’s gay.
@Comrade Baron Elmo:
Really? You can just tell? Let me know how you can please. I’d like to know.
Michael D.
Oh wait! I get it. You can tell he’s gay because he’s effeminate and because of the way he talks!!
Thanks for confirming what bullies everywhere just assume.
BruceK
Why should it matter whether Shrivell’s preferences are heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, trisexual, or if his preferences run to superintelligent shades of the color blue?
His actions were morally reprehensible on their face, and if he gets called on them before the Michigan bar, First Amendment claims aren’t going to cut a lot of ice. John Yoo notwithstanding, you’re supposed to hold yourself to a higher standard in order to keep your bar card.
Here’s hoping he joins Jack Thompson in crazyville.
Felanius Kootea (formerly Salt and freshly ground black people)
He showed up at Armstrong’s home at 1:30 a.m. Tried to get Armstrong fired from an internship with Nancy Pelosi by fabricating slanderous stories. Blogged about Armstrong *while at work* in the AG office and thinks this is about his first amendment rights? I’m not sure I believe this former AG actually went to law school.
celticdragonchick
@alwhite:
From what I have read, much of what support there was was more anti Russian in nature, since Russia was inextricably linked with the murderous pogroms of the 19th and early 20th centuries. I have read accounts of well educated Jewish prisoners in the concentration camps cheering German victories on the Eastern Front.
GregB
His lawyer told him that stalking and harassing are legal.
R. Johnston
Nah. Any lawsuit will disappear as part of a plea bargain on criminal stalking charges.
Bella Q
@ppcli:
Indeed. While this fellow’s pathology is on clear display, and he certainly has the potential to be dangerous, the bigger point needs to be made, repeatedly. His views are not terribly uncommon in the mainstream Christian right. His mental health issues aside, his ideas are fairly typical. That’s the part that’s really frightening to me.
The bar discipline case will be interesting to watch unfold. Speaking of bar discipline, it occurs to me to wonder whether the revelations about Joe Miller’s behavior could lead to an AK bar complaint. Here in Ohio, Jonathan Coughlan would be all over that sua sponte, as it’s rather a proactive office. So I’m curious whether anything will happen in Alaska. I suspect that Coughlan’s office would have pursued Shirvell, as well, even without a complaint.
Lavocat
Fuck firing the guy. How ’bout prosecuting his ass for any number of misdemeanors, starting with stalking and aggravated harassment.
In fact, flip this bastard’s ass into the Michigan Committee on Professional Ethics and see if he keeps his damned law license!
Kay Shawn
Tattoosydney, I think I love you.
JGabriel
Mistermix:
1:30 AM?
I think we have to ask: Was Shirvell’s intent harassment, or a booty call?
.
Allan
@Michael D.: People tell me all the time that discrimination against gays isn’t the same as racial discrimination because gayness isn’t visible like skin color, so nobody knows you’re gay unless you tell them.
To which I typically respond, “That’s interesting, because people driving 40 mph down dark city streets at night seem to have no trouble picking me out when they scream ‘Faggot!’ and throw their beer bottles at me.”
Nick
@celticdragonchick:
That’s true, because the German left never repudiated Russians for the pogroms. That still doesn’t change the reality that the Nazis were anti-semetic, even when they won a substantial number of Jewish votes in 1933.
300baud
@Michael D.:
Dude.
I get why you don’t like the notion that gaydar is possible. I also get why you don’t like stereotyping. But I’m writing from the Castro, where I’ve lived for 7 years. When the Daily Show thing with Shirvell came on the other night, it took maybe 30 seconds of video before my girlfriend and I looked at each other and said, “oh”.
Sure, we could be wrong. But combine that with his insane obsession with stalking an openly gay man from his alma mater and his feverish insistence on declaring to the world that Being! Gay! Is! Wrong! to the point where he fucks up a promising legal career. To me that spells super-closeted, self-hating gay Republican, a depressingly familiar species at this point.
It’s especially sad to me because every day I get to see people living the dream. They’re out and happy and in love and leading their lives. Shirvell’s life could be a good one if it weren’t for all the bullshit.
LikeableInMyOwnWay
@Michael D.:
Okay, but you can spot a gay by the way he supports the Flat Tax. You are okay with that, right?
kommrade reproductive vigor
And the fRighties make this sick sack of crap their new Victim of the Homosexual Agenda poster boy in 3…2…1…
Even if this jackass IS gay*, there’s no excuse for his behavior. I don’t care if they hooked a car battery to his nads while he was at Ave Maria to purge the unclean urges. Either deal with your shit in a way that doesn’t involve screwing with other people, or face whatever consequences the law allows.
@Sputnik_Sweetheart: Ding! Ding! Ding!
*I really hope to hell he’s not.
MattR
@300baud: I’ve gotta agree with Michael D on this and it is based on part of your response “Sure, we could be wrong.” You are stereotyping a person based on their behaviors and mannerisms and in doing so you really are reaffirming to the bullies of the world that everyone with those mannerisms is gay. Allan wondered above how people could recognize he was gay just be looking at him. They can’t really. They assume he is gay based on those stereotypes, but they also assume the same thing about straight men who act similarly.
kommrade reproductive vigor
@Michael D.: No. It’s ‘cos everyone knows gays who aren’t out behave like raving whackaloons. Sheesh, check your manual.
Frankly I don’t think Mr. Stalk is into anything that involves a consenting adult.
Splitting Image
@Allan:
As a straight man who’s also taken beer bottles to the head late at night, let me say that you are giving ignorant bigots way too much credit for their perspicacity.
I agree that the gentleman frothing at the mouth is likely gay, but that’s mainly because his behaviour fits the pattern of a stalker rather than a bigot, and his stalking a young man makes more sense if he is gay. I would assume Jack the Ripper was straight for the same reason.
Gaydar is merely confirmation bias in action. It goes hand in hand for me with astrology.
EDIT: I see MattR beat me to it. What he said.
Anya
@Michael D.: No. We are not basing our assumption because he’s effeminate, but because he is clearly obsessed with this young man. You should just watch the way he talks about him. He is completely obsessed with him. If he was serious about someone advancing a “radical homosexual agenda” his target would not be a 22 year old college student. He is practically a stalker. Who does that, if they don’t have an unhealthy obsession?
300baud
@Splitting Image:
That could be. Do you have any research to back your claim? Because the research I know about goes the other way. See the Wikipedia entry on Gaydar for references.
Tonybrown74
@Michael D.:
Actually, no.
I can tell he is gay by the way he obsesses over an out, proud gay man and the supposed orgies he’s having in his dorm room. That, and the stalking out in front of his house at 1:30 AM.
I, too, am a gay man. But what do I know …
Nellcote
@BruceK:
How does Orly Taintz still have a license?
300baud
@MattR:
Let’s break this down into two parts: factual accuracy and moral impact.
As to whether or not there are things in affect and appearance that correlate with gayness, that’s a question of fact. If I’m wrong about the possibility, then regardless of morality, I should STFU. Or if I’m wrong in this particular case, I should also STFU.
Suppose that I’m right, though. Suppose that based on behavior, there’s substantial reason to believe that Shirvell is gay. You’re saying that I shouldn’t point out what’s maybe driving somebody bullying a gay man because… I might be aiding people who bully gay men?
Honestly, how many anti-gay jerks do you think read here awaiting my approval to stereotype? And how long do you think we should act as if somebody possibly being gay is something we dare not talk about? It’s not as if I’m outing him, or doing anything based on my suspicion that he’s gay. Except saying that I have some sympathy for him.
I understand that stereotyping is in many cases problematic, especially when it comes from ignorance or hate and is used to justify shitty behavior. But I think it’s reasonable and proper for me to use my decade of experience in San Francisco to feel more compassionate for somebody who is obviously fucked in the head.
JMC in the ATL
Any guy who doesn’t believe in gaydar probably finds himself wondering why all these homosexuals keep sucking his cock.
Gemina13
@Tattoosydney:
I completely agree with this. “Fucking idiot” is too kind.
Michael D.
I love it how people here are justifying their stereotypes. It makes me sick to my stomach that some of you are even admitting to being gay. It’s just fucking sick.
I was fortunate to not be bullied as a kid because I was gay – I was bullied for other reasons. But I knew OTHER kids who were bullied for being “faggots” (people I know, as adults, are not gay), because they talked with higher voices, or enjoyed hanging out with girls. These kids regularly got a shit kicking because of peoples’ perceptions of their sexuality.
I, on the other hand, never exhibited any of those stereotypical traits, and so I “got away” with being gay. The people who were beating the crap out of xyz person they thought were gay were no more gay than their victims. And this was late high school. So we’re dealing with semi-adults here. These guys were no more gay htan most of you but, like this idiot, were obsessed with teaching someone a lesson about being a fag and making their lives miserable.
Not everyone who does this is a closet queer – although it might make you feel better about being straight to think that’s true. Look in the mirror. MOST people who do it are straight people – just like most of you. Get used to it. Straight people are responsible – BY FAR – for making gay kids’ lives miserable. By. Far.
What I’m seeing here is not a justification of bullying. Rather, a confirmation for any bully out there that they can tell who is gay just by looking at him or listening and hearing a lisp or an effeminate way of speaking.
@kommrade reproductive vigor:
So now it’s not just that you can “tell” he’s gay, but that he’s a pervert as well. We’re coming at gays from all sides here today aren’t we?
@LikeableInMyOwnWay: I don’t even know what your Flat Tax comment meant. Whatever.
@300baud:
Lovely. The whole Phelps clan is gay. Just what we need.
This is hilarious. I don’t think any of you hate gay people. I DO think you have a lot of preconceived notions about who is gay and who is not. What we look like and how we talk.
We’re all “Pride Parade” to many of you. (But you’ll support our right to look all “Pride Paradey!”)
And FWIW, the concept of gaydar is a myth. The only way you can “tell” if someone is gay is if that person actually tells you or sleeps with you. Real gay life is not high school myth or college wishful thinking.
Although you’re free to justify your stereotypes all you want.
Catsy
@Michael D.:
When you’re done with that cross, I’ve got a renovation project that could really use the lumber and nails. How about dialing back the melodrama?
It is a fact that there is an array of mannerisms that are stereotypically “gay”–mannerisms that get played up for effect by a large number of gays. This doesn’t mean that everyone who exhibits them is gay, just as not everyone who coughs should be assumed to have a cold.
But just as I might put some distance between myself and someone who’s coughing–whether or not I know for a fact they’re ill–there are times when my partner and I will see someone on TV and turn to each other to say, “Isn’t he just /fabulous/?”, or something to that effect. It doesn’t matter whether or not they actually /are/ gay–it’s that the behavior is usually a strong indicator, /when combined with other evidence/. Like, say, every other reason people have given for thinking this homophobic wingnut who’s obsessed with gay sex and stalking a gay student might just be a little light in the loafers himself. You know, the reasons you keep completely ignoring because it’s easier to bitch that people are assuming he’s gay solely because he sets off their gaydar.
You don’t have to like the fact that these mannerisms exist and are common amongst gay males. You certainly don’t–and shouldn’t–have to like the fact that people get bullied whether or not they actually are gay simply because they fit a stereotype. But pretending that the stereotype has no basis in fact is just idiotic. “Gaydar” is simply a colloquial term for a hunch formed on the basis of behavior. It doesn’t mean it’s a radar dish rotating above someone’s head that infallibly detects the gay gene at 200 meters–it’s simply a knack for accurately evaluating that array of behavioral cues.
What you do have to do is learn to differentiate between “he sure looks like a faggot to me” and “man, he sets off my gaydar like you wouldn’t believe”.
Barb (formerly gex)
@MAJeff: This.
In an earlier thread, John posted that many on the right aren’t actually bigots but just in it for the politics.
I think, however, that those that are actually bigots feel very, very strongly about this issue. Or they’d be busy thinking about their lives instead of ours.
They may not all be so dysfunctional that it comes bursting out like it has for Mr. Shirvell. But the believers are motivated by hatred – for themselves or for us. The pretty wrapping for public consumption is starting to come off with this guy, the “all fags must die” guy in Chambliss’ office, etc.
Barb (formerly gex)
@Allan: There are effeminate men that are not gay. Assuming all effeminate men are gay is another form of forcing some sort of gender norm on someone based on physical traits.
Yes, often those men are gay. But not always. The first step to getting effeminate gay men beat up less is to get rid of this myth of what being a manly-man is all about and that everything else is obviously faggy.
Barb (formerly gex)
And I guess that is my main point on the gaydar, “you can tell he’s gay” thing. That is one way of sort of bringing homosexuality into a norm accepted by society while still maintaining some requirement for gender conformity. So now you can’t be an effeminate man and be straight.
As a gay person, I suspect, but I never am willing to proclaim that someone is gay or is probably gay.
HyperIon
@Barb (formerly gex) wrote:
First, I still think of you as gex, never as Barb. (Seems like you were gex for a while.)
Second, I imagine this might be Michael D.’s position also.
I have never understood the impulse of gay people to assign sexuality to folks they don’t now. It’s either “i bet he’s gay..cool” when someone wants to “claim” the person in question. or “that guy is so gay and doesn’t even know it” when someone wants to “reject” the person in question.
I just don’t get the need to speculate out loud and I find that hets are less likely to do that (maybe because they are icked out and don’t want to bring it up. oh, well.)
of course, this might just be due to the fact that we’re on the intertubes and so are obligated to be assholes.
Sister Inspired Revolver of Freedom
I really hope Shirvell gets some kind of help for his mental issues. From day one, I’ve believed this guy is deranged, and potentially dangerous. Especially if he does get disbarred. He’s made Armstrong the centre of his life, and if things go bad for him, which they will, he’ll blame Armstrong.
Michael D.
@Catsy: Hey, Catsy:
When I see a black man walking down the street wearing his pants halfway down his ass and wearing a gold grill on his teeth, should that set off my “gonna rob or shoot me”-dar? Because when I watch the news at night, this is the vast majority of what I see in the non-white-collar crime reports.
And I have to say, if I succumbed to those awful stereotypes I would have one fuck of a horrible time living in Atlanta and taking transit every day.
But using your logic, I’d be more than justified making those assumptions about black men.
Which is it going to be?
(Or are gays still at the point where we have to put up with these stupid assumptions about us – even from each other – whereas we’ve moved on when it comes to stereotypes about black men? )
lahke
@Michael D.:
Well, now that you bring it up, I’ve always wondered about Phelps. Not just the over the top gay-hating, but thirteen children? Yeah, he could be one of those quiverful jerks, but maybe he’s just out to prove that he can do it with women.
Tattoosydney
@Kay Shawn:
Aw. Thanks.
Mnemosyne
Here’s my two cents: IIRC, most stalking cases occur because the stalker is sexually attracted to the stalkee, so I don’t think it’s totally crazy to speculate that Shirvell might be gay because he took the stalking to the point of showing up at the guy’s house at 1:30 am.
There’s that air of “I will not be ignored” that makes you think that there’s more going on than garden-variety homophobia.
Oh, and if anyone cares: Ira Glass from “This American Life” is straight. His ex-girlfriend Lynda Barry wrote a hilarious cartoon about him.
300baud
@Michael D.:
I’ve twice pointed people at scientific studies that suggest gaydar is in fact real. Do you have any evidence otherwise?
Also, living in the Castro, I think I have at least a passing familiarity with real gay life, thanks.