His last words are getting a lot of play:
“You’ve got to stop this war in Afghanistan.”
I thought this part of his Times’ obit, describing periods when he was out of the State Department, was interesting:
And his voice on the outside remained influential — as an editor of Foreign Policy magazine from 1972 to 1977, as a writer of columns for The Washington Post and analytical articles for many other publications, and as the author of two books.
Apparently, there was once a time when the opinion pages of that paper were taken seriously by those who wanted to assert influence. I was listening to an interview with James Fallows the other day, and he remarked that one of the things that surprised him the most upon returning to DC after a three year trip to China was the decline of the Washington Post.
gypsy howell
And as long as we’re at it, how about we stop the war in Iraq too?
comrade scott's agenda of rage
The last three years have seen the slow glide path downward that characterized the (com)Post’s decline for much of the awts turn into a nose dive.
Yes, many of the craptactular stenographers that came onboard in that decade, the Kornbluts, Murrays, BaconBits, etc, are still there. It’s just now that the old timers have mostly taken their buyouts and left while they could it means the aforementioned shitty reporters are, well, the first stringers.
And that’s one reason why the Post is crappy.
I say this as a DC native who’s been reading the Post since the 60s. Sad, very sad.
Woodrow "asim" Jarvis Hill
Needs to go into the BJ Lexicon as an oasis of sanity in the madness that is the Atlantic’s opinion section.
And as cliched as it is (and sounds), Holbrooke’s last words are making me rethink my position on the Afgan conflict.
Requiescat in pace.
aimai
Nothing concentrates the mind like the prospect of being Hanged. I don’t mean to be rude but heading into surgery for a life threatening problem really clarifies the issue. Holbrooke was a pretty good guy–I know people who knew him and loved him–but he had a complicated relationship, as negotiators usually do, with the situation in a war or a conflict which he was party to trying to “resolve.” The idea that the next move in the chess game, the next bribe, the next battle, the next plan won’t somehow fix things is very hard to shake. The “wash your hands and get out” school of thought is never in favor with the movers and shakers because its a failure of their ability to get things done. Heading into surgery and realizing that you will probably no longer be helming the ship of state? That all your plans are actually going to be carried out, or botched, by other people? That’s the moment when you see things clearly and grasp that a multi person, multi year, military struggle simply can’t be won.
aimai
stuckinred
“As the conflict in Vietnam escalated, President Lyndon Johnson formed a team of Vietnam experts to work in the White House under the former head of the Phoenix Program, R.W. Komer, in an operation that was separate from the National Security Council. As a rising young diplomat with significant experience in the country, Holbrooke was asked to join the group when he was only twenty-four years old.”
And a fine and effective group of experts they were.
re-posted.
stuckinred
stuckinred
@aimai: Westmorland was a good guy too, so was MacNamara.
soonergrunt
As long as we’re fantasizing without any basis about what he meant and thought, we could suppose that since he was talking to a Pakistani doctor (who, working on a senior US diplomat would undoubtedly be debriefed by Pakistani ISI) and he used the phrase “YOU’VE got to stop the war in Afghanistan”, meant the message for Pakistani ISI in reference to their continued support of the Taliban.
Because anyone who looks at his activities and statements since he became the US envoy to the region, will see that he thought the correct answer for the US was more involvement, particularly on the civilian front, not less. And as a man who served as a diplomat longer than most of us have lived, he knew that words matter and that precise use of language was absolutely critical to what he did and who he was.
SFAW
No, McNamara was not a good guy.
One supposes you were trying to be ironic or some such. But McNamara was a bureaucrat who did a great job in WWII, but then became overly impressed/convinced with/of his abilities. (Yes, I know running FoMoCo was not a job for chumps.) That, and he either lied about the state of the Conflict, or allowed himself to be fooled. I tend to believe he lied, but that’s more an emotional than a rational reaction.
Firebagger
I blame the Senate.
soonergrunt
@SFAW: We have his own words from his memoir that he lied.
stuckinred
@SFAW: Yea, you are right, Westy was a schmuck too.
Ana Gama
Meanwhile, Karzai is off the reservation again.
Linda Featheringill
@SFAW:
McNamara was not a good guy. And his latter-day confession of “mistakes” didn’t impress me. I never saw any sign that he realized that his mere mistakes caused a lot of death and dismemberment and pain and lifelong misery in the US and in Vietnam.
Westmoreland may have been a good soldier but he sold himself short. He allowed his whole life and intelligence and reputation to be wasted on a fool’s errand. Idiot.
SFAW
soonergrunt et al. –
Yeah, that’s what I thought I remembered. I was just too lazy to look it up. I do remember, when that “revelation” came out, wishing that there was a Hell, because that’s where he’d end up.
Thanks
ChrisS
Ending a war is hard, I can’t imagine that there would be 50 votes in the senate for that.
Linda Featheringill
Perhaps more to the point of today’s issue:
Is the war in Afghanistan a fool’s game?
liberal
@aimai:
Hmm…Wikipedia entry on him includes allegations that he was at least somewhat involved in greenlighting Suharto’s genocidal rampage in East Timor.
liberal
@stuckinred:
Heh.
liberal
@aimai:
IANAD, but given he was being treated for aortic dissection, I doubt he was thinking consciously of much of anything, but I could be entirely wrong about that.
ChrisS
@Linda Featheringill:
It’s pretty much always been, I think. Same with Iraq. The progressive liberal in me believes fervently in nation building, but that’s in theory, in a vacuum. In practice, there are too many competing variables and power struggles to pull in one direction. Look at Iraq, the most important thing that Bush Administration set up was the fucking stock exchange. Then there are the handouts to major league engineering/construction firms. I read Confessions of an Economic Hitman (while over the top in parts, it’s a pretty good primer on how to make money on developing countries).
Outside of raping their resources, bombing their people, and telling them that they’re doing it wrong, I can’t figure out why a native people would be resistant to US help.
Hawes
In response to both ending the war in Iraq and ending the war in Afghanistan…
We have ended our war, as much as possible, in Iraq. We are still trying to prop that country up. And effectively, we are trying to prop up Afghanistan, too, with more violent methods.
I have a buddy – Marine Lt. Colonel – who did two tours in Afghanistan and two tours in Iraq. He was gung-ho, as you might expect, in 2003. Iraqi Freedom, here we come.
By 2006, he was talking about just getting his men and women home.
By last spring, he was saying that Afghanistan was a lost cause and we were doing nothing there that benefitted our national interest.
If you’ve lost the fucking Marines…
We were able to stabilize Iraq enough to give the illusion of success, but I can’t see a road that leads to a pluralistic, stable democracy in Iraq. I see fragmentation and internecine warfare, eventually collapsing into dictatorship.
Afghanistan wishes it was that lucky.
SFAW
As the wingnuts have tried and tried to tell us – and you were apparently out of the room during that lesson – it’s because they’re like children. And we’re like their parents. We’re only doing it for their own good! Some day they’ll thank us for not being allowed to stay out all night
Omnes Omnibus
People seem to be being a little harsh toward the recently departed this morning. What about his AIDS, TB, and malaria work? The work ending the Bosnian War? Even as an up and coming diplomatic star, a 24 year old with two or three years of seniority in the Foreign Service wasn’t setting policy. He was writing memos.
cleek
end the war in Afghanistan? you mean pull out?
doesn’t sound very manly to me.
Russ
Haws,
“And effectively, we are trying to prop up Afghanistan, too, with more violent methods.”
Weren’t the methods used in 06, when things were unraveling, shown to be not working? If the policy Petraues is using pushes the Taliban into making Peace with the government, then it may be worth it. In any case, since 2001, our invasion and occupation has saved the Afghans from a Taliban government, and far far more deaths and war, than if we had not gone there. In every year since the invasion, the Afghan’s life has improved, and lives longer.
stuckinred
@Omnes Omnibus: And the memos got us what? He knew it was a fucking loser, as did most of the people “on the ground” as well as the other fucking “best and brightest. Some really great 18 year olds never got to be 24. I’m not really all that negative about him, just the whole goddamn deal.
EFroh
Anyone have the link to that Fallows interview?
Omnes Omnibus
@stuckinred: I don’t know. If he was writing memos saying that the war was being fought over pride rather than out of a hope of winning, it seems to me that he was doing his job. Was it his fault that his superiors kept the war going? Should he have resigned earlier? Do you want to condemn everyone over the rank of PFC or its equivalent for what happened in Vietnam? Like I said, I don’t know; it just seemed that comparing a junior diplomat to Westmoreland and McNamara was a little bit much.
stuckinred
@Omnes Omnibus: Ok you are right.
WyldPirate
@aimai:
Any war that isn’t an existential struggle is basically a losing proposition for everyone involved.
Afghanistan, Iraq and Vietnam are all particularly aglaring examples of sheer idiocy on the part of the US.
Joe Beese
[[ Holbrooke, a senior adviser to Al Gore, was acutely aware that either he or Wolfowitz would be playing important roles in the next administration. Looking perhaps to assure the world of the continuity of US foreign policy, he told his audience that Wolfowitz’s “recent activities illustrate something that’s very important about American foreign policy in an election year, and that is the degree to which there are still common themes between the parties.” The example he chose to illustrate his point was East Timor, which was invaded and occupied in 1975 by Indonesia with US weapons – a security policy backed and partly shaped by Holbrooke and Wolfowitz. “Paul and I,” he said, “have been in frequent touch to make sure that we keep [East Timor] out of the presidential campaign, where it would do no good to American or Indonesian interests.” ]]
In sum, Holbrooke has worked vigorously to keep his bloody campaign silent. The results of which appear to have paid off. In chilling words, Holbrooke describes the motivations behind support of Indonesia’s genocidal actions:
[[ The situation in East Timor is one of the number of very important concerns of the United States in Indonesia. Indonesia, with a population of 150 million people, is the fifth largest nation in the world, is a moderate member of the Non-Aligned Movement, is an important oil producer – which plays a moderate role within OPEC – and occupies a strategic position astride the sea lanes between the Pacific and Indian Oceans … We highly value our cooperative relationship with Indonesia. ]]
http://www.counterpunch.org/frank01272009.html
Just another company man trading other people’s blood for oil.
Plenty more where he came from.
PurpleGirl
@Linda Featheringill: Yes, considering that we are now there longer than the Soviet Union. For a few thousand years, other tribes/countries have tried to invade and rule the area called Afghanistan. Hasn’t worked out well for any of them.
Omnes Omnibus
@Joe Beese: Of course, no one is as pure as you.
Russ
PurpleGirl,
But, we are not trying to rule them. And, if human life is important, we have been successful. Many things have happened to Afghanistan since the Taliban rule, and most of them pretty good. Far better education, health, and economic growth, are just a few. The Soveits and British were not in Afghanistan with the backing of the Afghans themselves.
Omnes Omnibus
@stuckinred: It doesn’t happen all that often.
WyldPirate
@SFAW:
But McNamara he had metrics–data! We were killing more of them than they us. Yay team!
NcNamara was a corporate tool of the worst sort–the ones that believe their own hype– from they day he got out of Harvard B-School.
Best and the brightest my ass.
Joe Beese
@Omnes Omnibus:
I have not, as yet, abetted genocide.
Wish me luck in keeping the streak going.
liberal
@Omnes Omnibus:
If the allegations re East Timor are true, the only thing a decent human would have done is resign.
PurpleGirl
@Russ: It seems that we have lost the backing of the Afghan people… too many drone attacks that have killed civilians. Sorry but I don’t want my tax money used for killing wedding parties. And rule can also mean “compliant government who follows your direction”.
liberal
@Omnes Omnibus:
Yeah, you’ve got to be pretty pure to take a dim view of crimes against humanity.
WyldPirate
@Omnes Omnibus:
Nice, Omnes Omnibus. When you can’t attack the content of an argument, attack the person.
Elizabelle
@EFroh:
Link to a blogpost on what James Fallows noticed on return from 3 years in China.
http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2009/08/notes-on-repatriation-recession-media-depts/22746/
And this is without saying a word about Fred Hiatt’s opinion pages.
liberal
@Joe Beese:
On a lighter note, reminds me of an Onion op-ed by a young girl complaining that “Girls are no good at genocide.”
PurpleGirl
@WyldPirate: Best and the brightest my ass.
Yes, exactly. McNamara was the uber technocrat.
Omnes Omnibus
@WyldPirate: I learned everything I know about that from you.
liberal
@Russ:
Most occupiers say that.
Omnes Omnibus
@liberal:I just read the East Timor links. If true, you are probably correct. My earlier comments were primarily related to Vietnam where Holbrooke was not in a policy making position. I still stand by my no one is as pure as Joe Beese snark.
liberal
Funny—clicking on “Reply” to #42 redirects me to the Wikipedia entry on Ad hominem.
At least the craptacular code has a sense of humor.
WyldPirate
@Omnes Omnibus:
Right. They’re you go again.
When you’re in a hole, it is usually not a good idea to keep digging.
liberal
@Omnes Omnibus:
Which would be odd, given that JB was writing in reference to East Timor, not Vietnam.
WyldPirate
@liberal:
liberal, I have no idea how that happened. I pasted that link to the Wikipedia entry for ad hominem for Omnes Omnibus since he seems to think he is in the third grade this morning.
Omnes Omnibus
@liberal: I base it on Mr. Beese’s career as a whole. But again, if true, the stories about East Timor do not cast a good light on that part of Holbrooke’s career. Joe Beese is correct about that
ETA: I have a quick trigger this morning. I withdraw my comment. Mr. Beese, my apologies.
liberal
@Russ:
That’s not the proper metric. The proper metric is what happens to their lives in the long run. In the long run, we’re not going to be occupying Afghanistan.
Elizabelle
It’s depressing to see some folks fighting with each other in a thread honoring a dead diplomat.
Elizabelle
Per NYT Julian Assange has been granted bail by British court.
liberal
@Omnes Omnibus:
OK. I don’t know about JB’s “career”.
stuckinred
I only meant to suggest that about 3million people died for nothing as the result of gross stupidity. I didn’t mean to start a flame war. (:
liberal
@Omnes Omnibus:
Hat’s off to you—most adult humans don’t apologize for anything. And in a blog comment section, it’s unheard of.
stuckinred
@liberal: I did an no one said shit!
liberal
@WyldPirate:
I assumed right off the bat that it’s the code, not you. Which is funny.
liberal
@stuckinred:
OK, my hat’s tipping again…
:-)
Now gotta get back to work. (Which is a rather good excuse for OO—nothing like warming up for a boring day’s worth of work than telling someone to piss off. :-) )
liberal
@stuckinred:
3 million—you mean Vietnam? I thought direct and indirect death toll due to our actions was about 4 million.
stuckinred
@liberal: A million here, a million there, pretty soon . . .
WyldPirate
@stuckinred:
Man, you didn’t do anything but tell the truth. Some times that truth singes people’s ass, but not often enough and not the ones needing it the most. Those folks usually get big hagiographies in all sorts of media going on and on about them for days.
Imagine the coming blizzard of horseshit we will have to endure about Dick Cheney. Nothing will probably ever exceed that except Ronald Reagen’s.
Svensker
@Russ:
.
Well there’s a nice case of WTF.
EFroh
Thanks for the link, Elizabelle.
lacp
I guess I’m not seeing Mr. Holbrooke’s greatness. Certainly googling up his name in conjunction with “East Timor,” “Kwangju,” and “Rambouillet” produced some rather disturbing results.
stuckinred
@WyldPirate: When it was your best friends that were lost in that shit storm it sort of stays with you.
Russ
Svensker,
Yes, I suppose one does not get news flashes about the medical improvements, and schools being built etc..
“The children and maternal mortality rate has been reducing in Afghanistan since 2001, while maternal mortality comes down from 1,600 to 1,400 and children mortality under age of 5 years has come down from 257 to 161 annually, said Dr. Suraya Dalil, acting Minister of Public Health in a joint Press Conference with representatives of WHO and UNICEF here in Kabul on Sunday.”
http://www.reliefweb.int/rw/rwb.nsf/db900sid/MCOI-89PGMZ?OpenDocument
or
Economic recovery
pre-Saur Revolution GDP 3.7 billion 1977
2.7 in 2000
4 billion 1n 2004
5 in 2005
10.6 in 2008 (http://devdata.worldbank.org/AAG/afg_aag.pdf)
and also
repatriation and rehab
5 million people ( of 6 mill) returned, offered money
” More than five million refugees have returned home to Afghanistan since 2002, but over 2.6 million registered Afghan refugees remain in neighboring countries like Pakistan and Iran. The United States has provided generous levels of assistance to those refugees returning to Afghanistan, and to those remaining in Pakistan and elsewhere. In the last year, the United States, including the Department of State and the US Agency for International Development, has provided nearly $155 million to Afghans displaced by conflict or natural disasters. Of that amount, the State Department’s Bureau of Population, Refugees, and Migration provided $75 million this year to Afghan refugees in the region, both those who have returned home, and those still in countries of refuge. ”
In 2010, the United States has spent $43.5 million to help refugees who have returned to Afghanistan make a fresh start.
http://kabul.usembassy.gov/remarks_1210.html
Education:
“Khaled Hosseini writes that “If we accept the premise that education is the key to achieving positive, long lasting change in Afghanistan, then it is impossible to overstate how encouraging it is that this year[2009] nearly eight and a half million children will attend school in Afghanistan, with girls accounting for nearly 40% of enrollment.” Mortenson founded 131 schools, providing education for some 58,000 students.
stuckinred
@Russ: Ever see the Mouse That Roared?
agrippa
@liberal:
A key question is devising the means for leaving.
The old lie about the mission being accomplished, there fore we are leaving, may work. It is, after all, the ignored war. That may be the easiest way to get out.
Russ
stuckinred,
Yes, great movie, and I like all Peter Sellers. However, if one took stock of the destruction of Afghanistan during the Soviet scorched earth era and the civil wars among the warlords, one should be able to recognize how much Afghanistan truly needed foreign aid. 12% of Afghanistan is agriculturally suitable to farm, the Soviets took away much of that, destroyed seed stocks, and laid down tons of mines, and destroyed fruit groves.
From the book, A Brief History of Afghanistan
agriculture 12% usable in best of times. Soviet deforestation and neglect had a devastating toll.
-redistribution of seeds and fertilizer, de-mining programs, reconstruction of canals reconstruction of prewar 22 agricultural research stations
Fruits and nuts prewar was 50%
native seed varieties wiped out and had to be brought in from abroad
-the US has been clearing cluster bombs, dropped by the millions by the Soviets.
“Afghanistan has cleared two-thirds of the country of deadly mines over the past two decades, and had hoped to get rid of the rest by 2013. But experts fear Afghanistan can no longer meet its goals because of an increase in fighting and a drop in international funding.
The mines in Afghanistan are a legacy from decades of Soviet occupation and subsequent civil wars. Tens of thousands of mines and unexploded bombs still pepper the rugged country. Last year, 84,900 mines and 2.5 million unexploded bombs and ordinance were cleared.”
stuckinred
@Russ: We should have never left them hangin in the first place, I’m down with that.
Russ
stuckinred,
I agree, if we could have just helped them a little then, not even with any troops, the whole story could have been different.
The Grand Panjandrum
@stuckinred:
Not true according to my father who worked directly for him. Westmoreland was a prick and full of himself.
Joe Beese
@lacp:
If liberals were capable of idolizing Ted Kennedy, they’re capable of idolizing anyone.
agrippa
@Joe Beese:
Why idolize any politician?
They are mere mortals; no braver, no wiser, no smarter than anyone else. No less of any of those either, come to that.
ordinary men who find themselves in extraordinary jobs.
Brighton
Holbrooke’s last words and Bernie Sanders’ words still ringing in my ear.