I think the Wisconsin labor situation will end up helping Democrats, and, as with many important issues, this isn’t easily measured by public opinion polls. In most opinion polls, for example, Americans favor reproductive rights, but the majority of people who make their vote solely on the basis of reproductive rights are opponents of reproductive rights. Immigration plays out the same way; the people who really care about the issue are immigrants and their families, which represent only a small fraction of the population.
I don’t think there’s that many “independent voters” who hate unions so much that they’ll base their vote on which candidate busts unions harder. But I think there are plenty of center and right-center union members who will vote against a candidate who seeks to end collective bargain rights. Not many people outside of Georgetown and Bethesda give a flying fuck what wealthy, union-hating scum like Joe Klein or Richard Cohen thinks about much of anything. In fact, Villager opposition to unions can be used to our advantage as proof that union-busting is an out-of-touch, elitist past-time (which it genuinely is, in fact).
The right is trying to portray the protests as being led by Obama (here; here) with some wingers even suggesting that Obama’s involvement is an impeachable offense. That’s a sign of fear.
Tomorrow I’m going to try to assemble a list of ways to get involved in this struggle — a struggle we will win, decisively, if not now then within a few years. For now, I’m just giving another link to that Atrios page for the Wisconsin State Senate.
This was a big miscalculation by the right and we’re going to make them pay.
Remember which side you’re on and they’ll never keep us down.
UPDATE. Order pizza for protesters here.
UPDATE UPDATE. Solidarity rallies here. General food/organization supply fund for Madison protesters here.
Trentrunner
And here I was thinking it was a suicide rap.
D-boy
sign me up
The Dangerman
Baby we were born to run*
*not necessarily Tunch
Shadow's Mom
Gave at first prompting. Used MisterMix’s map from yesterday in an exchange with one RedStateRandy on Twitter who maintained that unions are the cause of all our economic woes and that he trusted corp execs over union leaders. He was very polite, as was I. His last response after I sent the link was: Interesting map, thanks. I believe he’s had food for thought and may find his way back here to B-J. Off to school for me.
SteveinSC
Yeah, by the way what’s the latest from President Harold Ford III? He still hiding out?
joe from Lowell
I hope you’re right, DougJarvus.
Fingers crossed.
Cronin
This is probably the most important domestic policy fight in recent memory. I bused myself up to Madison, but if you come up with other ideas / ways to push this, I’m all ears.
Baud
From your fingertips to God’s ears…
General Stuck
This is the over reach, and it will be the downfall of this seizure like manifestation of keeping the conservative movement animated in short bursts. Walker is an extremist, and not just on labor rights. He is most extreme on abortion rights, even well beyond most right to lifers. And on about any issue he cares about, the word compromise does not enter his fascist neural net. Americans by and large will recoil from this kind of true believing ideologue, even otherwise supporters of his basic policies.
Anne S
Thanks for this. We Cheeseheads aren’t backing down and we’re ready for the long haul. The protests have been amazing and very heartening. Unions are asking out of state folks to stay home and organize in their own capitols because we have enough people here to keep this thing going indefinitely, and they might as well get ready since the Koch Brothers and Grover Norquist’s gang are coming for their rights next.
70,000 protesters at the Capital Square was a sight to see on Saturday. We walked around and around with our 11 year old. He wrote out a big poster “I don’t have a college diploma. Can I be governor?” Lots of people offered him their support :-) The police said on Sunday that people left the square cleaner than they’d found it; even digging out trash that had been left under the snow since the fall and cleaning that up to.
Some of us see that community spirit as pure Badger goodness- Fox News just sees it as a bunch of thugs and commies.
cat48
I hope to hell your right. Sweet Jesus, Ezra Klein just told O’Donnell this was all Obama’s fault b/c he didn’t punish the banksters. WTF EVER!
SteveinSC
Well, well, the exquisite troll JFL has shown up. There goes the thread.
Turgidson
Doug Hill? Me no understand.
Resident Firebagger
I wish I could agree with you, but the whole states-are-broke-and-there-isn’t-money-for-pensions argument is one of those pieces of “logic” that I think most half-attentive people working crappy (non-union) jobs will accept at its face. Plus I know too many otherwise smart folks who can understand that the banks are pulling a scam, and seem to understand that all politicians are bought and paid for, and yet fail to grasp that these Koch-backed austerity measures are just another angle to that same scam.
This War on the Middle Class started a long time ago, and I fear we’re all too late to this battle…
Cris
I dreamed I saw Doug Hill last night.
SteveinSC
@Turgidson:
Same here.
LarsThorwald
I said it in October, and I said it in November, and I will say it again:
These Republican dumbasses cannot help but overreach. They do it every single time. No self control! They get their fingers in the till and one hand on the steering wheel, and they cannot refrain from totally misreading the last election, thinking that every vote was a vote for grabbing a far right-wing agenda and jamming it up Democrats’ asses. The overreached in 1994, they overreached with Terry Sciavo and the agenda in 2005, and they will do it here.
Boehner has no control over State Governors like Walker or Scott or Christie, so he can’t really deal with their idiotic overreaching, but he does have a leadership post over teatard freshmen, but he can’t keep them in line.
The wheels on the bus always come off when these assholes drive. It’s happening now, just a lot faster than I thought it would have. Absolutely no self-control.
And here’s my prediction: we will get a brief Gov’t shutdown, and the GOP will look like assholes yet again.
jwb
“That’s a sign of fear.” Yes, a sign that their polling on the issue shows they are horribly on the wrong side, so they are desperately trying to change the topic of conversation.
Ailuridae
Tomorrow I’m going to try to assemble a list of ways to get involved in this struggle—a struggle we will win, decisively, if not now then within a few years
The good folks at Ian’s Pizza on State are taking donations to feed the protesters.
Loneoak
@Turgidson:
DougJ + Joe Hill?
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@Turgidson: Doug has rightfully declared that this fight over the rights of workers to collective bargain is a hill worth dying on.
Yutsano
@LarsThorwald:
I’m thinking I’ll be out of work at least a month, and am making preparations for that exact contingency.
Doug Hill
@SteveinSC:
Joe Hill.
joe from Lowell
@SteveinSC: I’m flattered that I lurk this large in your mind, but I haven’t the foggiest idea what you’re talking about.
But, out of curiosity, when you have nightmares about me, what does my facial hair look like?
Commenting at Ballon Juice since 1937
I couldn’t agree more. The Kochs overplayed their hand. It will have the effect of a much better Obama second term if the people are willing to be in the streets. There’s no reason now to not fulfill their fear and have the President come out strongly on the labor side.
Madeline
Over the weekend, I read that there is some evidence that our overlords have a fear of unions making a comeback in the coming years, due to all the economic uncertainty and instability we’re facing. I wish I could remember where I read this, but I can’t.
MikeJ
@SteveinSC: Don’t mourn, blog.
minachica
@Ailuridae: Also, you can contribute to a general food/supplies fund here.
Ian’s Pizza is awesome, but they can only bake so many pizzas.
El Cid
The “Right to Work” movement & legislative attack — no closed union shops — was launched by a journalist.
It’s in their blood.
MikeJ
@Doug Hill: I was really expecting you to go for the Billy Bragg version. Not that I fault you for Paul Robeson.
Baud
@cat48: I like Ezra, but that was silly.
JGabriel
DougJ @ Top:
Excellent!
From everything I’ve read, Obama and OFA really haven’t been all that active except for wishing labor well and showing up to collect signatures and contact info.
But if Republicans want to blame Obama, then I say: MORE POWER TO THEM.
This is an issue where the only votes that are going to change are pro-labor soft Republicans, who may switch to the Dem column over it.
.
joe from Lowell
@LarsThorwald: Agreed.
The first things they do upon coming to power in the midst of an ongoing economic slump – a slump they made the centerpiece of their campaign messaging – are abortion restrictions and union busting. Oh, and turning down money for big public works projects.
If this country manages to survice the next two years, the 2012 election campaign is going to be a rout.
freelancer
Okay, I’d never heard of the Wackenhut guys who drank vodka out of each others’ asses. Maddow is hilarious right now.
Elia
Does anyone here have anything to say about the fact that Matt Yglesias has said basically NOTHING about this issue?
I mean, the one thing he did say was, “The way I see it, unions are doomed.” An academic, 1,000-feet-up prognostication that had very little to do with the current situation other than implicitly counseling not to bother…
I’m just confused because I thought he left the Atlantic for TP because he wanted to be more involved in the actual politics and advocation of the progressive cause…
General Stuck
I dreamed I saw Doug Hill last night.
alive as you and me
Liberty60
I am getting involved by leading a local MoveOn group; we are holding a protest this Thursday as part of a nationawide day of action by MoveOn to protest the GOP budget cuts, and by extension, the conservative Koch Bros-led agenda.
Its not enough to write angry posts or comments, to simply vote; if we learn anything from the events in Egypt it is the power of protestors on the streets.
burnspbesq
@Cris:
Alive as you and me
Says I, “But Doug, you’re ten years dead.”
“I never died,” says he.
Doug Hill
@MikeJ:
I like the Joan Baez but I don’t like the ones you can find on YouTube.
SteveinSC
Rachel is, right now, doing a masterful job of deconstructing Walker and his butt-vodka drinking Wackenhut SS goons. TV worth watching.
FoxinSocks
I pitched in $20 a few days ago. Trying to figure out how I can do more, besides voicing my support and educating people on the issues.
jwb
@JGabriel: I read somewhere that OfA has done a bit of logistic work, but it’s been local OfA volunteers.
Corner Stone
@freelancer: Not much different than a certain someone getting hog tied by a guy with a questionable mustache.
What do you think happened next?
dmsilev
From the third of those ‘wingnut reaction’ links:
I think I just filled my Wingnut Bingo card. But that aside, I found the first sentence rather interesting. First off, I thought that according to wingnut canon, the War On Terror was still ongoing, and indeed was near-eternal. Secondly, though I’m sure the author didn’t intend to say so, I’ll take this as admission that George Bush et al. trampled all over the Constitution and the law. Thirdly, can they *please* find another code phrase to replace “states’ rights”? All the neighborhood dogs are complaining about the piercing whistling noises.
dms
SBJules
My grandma used to sing Which Side Are you On when I was a little girl. She did, however, sing it to a different tune; she was tone deaf. I’ve kept the sentiment all these years.
Liberty60
by the way- it isn’t just John and ED; our local MoveOn, Progressive Democrats of America, Organizing for America, and Democracy for America all have a generous sprinkling of former Republicans, who have finally quit in disgust with what has become of the GOP; this, in Orange County California the original “Reagan Country.”
I am hopeful that this is finally the day when the Democrats found their spine, at long last.
TooManyJens
SEIU has a list of solidarity rallies here: http://action.seiu.org/page/s/solidarityaction
Also, if there are any other Juicers in the Champaign-Urbana area, there is a solidarity rally tomorrow at noon at the Alma Mater.
Baud
@Elia: I don’t read Yglesias, but generally I hate the whole “so-and-so hasn’t said or done something” line of argument, no matter who it’s applied to.
The Dangerman
@Yutsano:
I’m feeling a shutdown is guaranteed, but it will be short. I will be fascinated to see how Boehner gets the Tea Partiers to come to the table.
Commenting at Ballon Juice since 1937
@Doug Hill: I like the Joan Baez too!
joe from Lowell
@Commenting at Ballon Juice since 1937:
I really don’t know about this. Obama has a tendency to automatically become the center of attention when he involves himself in a dispute, so that it becomes a proxy war for pro- vs. anti-Obama factions.
I can imagine a lot of “hardworking Americans, white Americans” who might support the unions being turned off if the cause became associated with Obama. I can certainly imagine the teabaggers working to rally undecideds against him.
It’s similar to not wanting the U.S. to come out too strongly for the protesters in Egypt.
parsimon
@Resident Firebagger:
Much as I hate to say it, I fear that Resident Firebagger is right, nevermind his/her pseud.
The move to pit members of the middle class against one another (by, in this case, alleging that public sector employees receive pay and benefits out of proportion to those in the private sector, and are thereby bankrupting the system) is so far capturing the minds of many an average voter.
An antidote to that narrative is sorely needed.
Pooh
@Elia: He seems to have said rather a lot about it, actually. He hasn’t spent post after post talking about what a dickbag Walker is A) because that’s not really his style; and B) that opinion is basically present in all his posts on the topic which make it pretty clear that he thinks the bill to be bad policy.
Elia
@Baud: I’m not making an argument; I’m genuinely perplexed. This issue has consumed the rest of the left-wing blogosphere, near as I can tell. His silence is deafening.
Pooh – He has? I read him multiple times every day…I don’t recall. BTW the ‘tude, I assume, comes from an assumption that I’m a Firebagger. I’m not.
Suffern ACE
@Elia: Yglesias does not like teachers unions. Or at the very least, he has totally bought into the “reform” agenda that what is ailing schools is tenure. When I used to read the blog, I thought he suffered a little bit from “government workers make too much money for people who didn’t attend Ivy League schools” syndrome. Its a disease that afflicts many.
Baud
@joe from Lowell: Agree 100%. I think it would be a horrible move (at this time at least). Keep this a people’s movement.
MikeJ
@Doug Hill: Oddly enough, I was listening to this album earlier today.
Benz
Is there a way we can order baby sitters? There’s a lot of right wing criticism that the teachers unions arent helping themselves by forcing parents to stay home or pay for a sitter.
stuckinred
@TooManyJens:
Every time a virgin walks by she sits down!
Seriously, I was once in a knock-down drag-out riot right there!
TooManyJens
@stuckinred: Awesome! What riot?
@Benz: I thought I read that the teachers are going back starting tomorrow.
joe from Lowell
@Baud: Well, I don’t agree 100%. There’s a good argument to be made on the other side, too.
Pooh
@joe from Lowell:
Largely this. Engaging the lizard brain on this issue doesn’t seem necessary or productive given that it seems people sort of intrinsically get that changing the rules of the game to go after your enemies is unfair.
Commenting at Ballon Juice since 1937
@joe from Lowell: Good points. I’m conflicted between your position and a general ‘be a leader’ type argument. Have Hillary to issue a statement?
Cat Lady
Five years ago this shit Walker’s pulling would have happened without much scrutiny, but the ability for information to spread and organized resistance to be rallied is something that works against the Repukes. They’re used to hiding and lying and cheating and opacity to get their nefarious work done. The same thing with the Egyptian and Tunisian resistance – it happened all at once at the minute it could because of the hive mind abetted by Twitter and Facebook. They’re at a disadvantage, because we’re on the right side in this battle. It’s up to us to get it right, right now.
stuckinred
Here’s a picture of then U of I Poli-sci Prof Mike Parenti with the Illinois State Police after they bashed in his face.
stuckinred
@TooManyJens: Cambodia
Baud
@joe from Lowell: You’re too humble. Your argument was very persuasive. :)
Parallel 5ths (Jewish Steel)
The Baez version is sublime.
TooManyJens
@stuckinred: They still talk about that one, sometimes.
stuckinred
@TooManyJens: Here’s a website with lots of C-U history from those days. Strangely it’s “The Great Hollywood Hangover”.
jwb
@The Dangerman: Why do you think it will be short? A substantial number of Republicans will have to agree to avert it, and at the moment I don’t see where those defections would come from. Boehner clearly wants to avoid it, but he’s not had much luck controlling the teabaggers even for the stuff that his overlords want enacted.
Elia
The analogy to Egypt is pretty specious. The ways in which the issues are not comparable are numerous.
I think it’s probably for the best for Obama to stay mum for a bit longer. But if it looks like we’re at an impasse that could go either way, he’s absolutely got to come out — not swingin’, still Obama — for the unions. He’s done it already, for one thing. For another, he’s a DEMOCRAT. If you’re saying he should remain on the side-lines ’til the possibly bitter end (and I’m not saying you are, just if); well, that’d be like a contemporary high-profile national Republican refudiating Limbaugh. Or the Chamber of Commerce, if you prefer.
joe from Lowell
@stuckinred: You were in a riot over Cambodia?
stuckinred
@TooManyJens: Ever hear about the 4th of July, 1970 at Lincoln and Green?
Doug Hill
@stuckinred:
When was that?
Pooh
@Elia: I’m sorry, I wasn’t trying to cop an attitude. (No links to avoid moderation, but these are all amongst his last 15 or so posts) He’s talked about the false narrative of “austerity”, answered the charge of hypocrisy over supporting the absent WI state dems given his support for filibuster reform, talked about union member’s voting demographics (which makes the point that this to be just plain dumb politics for the GOP, as union members are only about 57-43 for dems…), had several posts on unions in general, talked about the problem of bad ideas leading to bad policies (which while not directly about Wisconsin, certainly touches on the issue of an undereducated electorate) and commented on the ridiculousness of the Fitzegeradl’s little game of nepotism.
stuckinred
@Doug Hill: Kent State. He was part of a blockade of the U of I Union. He was targeted and they did the three minute motherfucker on him.
Jack Bauer
I get the feeling this could be a big deal for the future of the labour movement. Made the front page of the BBC earlier this evening. There is good push back in the UK against the austerity cuts, and this movement in Madison offers a glimmer of hope for all our futures, I’ve been suffering some serious melancholy on that front recently…
The D party needs to grow a fucking spine and embrace this, fully.
joe from Lowell
@Elia: I like what Obama’s done so far. He’s made it clear which side he’s on, boys, which side he’s on, which side he’s on, boys, which side he’s on, but he hasn’t hogged the spotlight or acted like he’s leading this movement.
Pooh
@joe from Lowell: And nor should he.
Baud
@Elia: I agree that this can’t reasonably be compared to Egypt, and, unfortunately, it really is both sides in this case doing it.
TooManyJens
@stuckinred: That one, I haven’t heard of.
Elia
@Pooh: Oh, no problem at all.
I’d take issue with the last one you cited, since I believe he linked to an article making the opposite argument (but he may have been totally kidding there; I couldn’t tell).
I guess I’m a bit confused about why he’s been dealing with the issue in such a “read between the lines” way, but you’re right that that’s his style. I don’t know why this never occurred to me before, but I always assumed that moving to TP would mean a slight or marked shift in that style, towards something a bit more partisan…
To be fair, I’ve been feeling a bit radicalized by the whole Wisconsin thing, and I just forgot that everyone else isn’t necessarily having the same fluctuations, too.
jwb
@Elia: He can (and I believe will) join in whenever he sees a chance to help without making the issue about him—that’s a very difficult trick to pull as a president, especially when the opposition will seize every opportunity to make it about him.
SteveinSC
@Doug Hill: Joe Hill, great. Try this
Elia
@joe from Lowell: Agreed. When it comes to handling delicate situations that could change from one moment to the next, for whatever reason, he’s generally at his best.
freelancer
Just sent Madison a cheese pizza and a pepperoni through
http://www.badgerbites.com
Good end to an otherwise busy and crappy day.
JGabriel
@jwb:
True, true. I read that some OFAer’s started helping with logistics around last Thursday. So, yes, that too.
.
nelle
Off-topic – News from NZ. Christchurch badly damaged by earthquake with aftershocks rolling through. Fatalities are being reported and many trapped in buildings (the quake hit at about 12:50 this afternoon (Tuesday here). At least two buses crushed by falling debris. Many injured. Much liquifaction of the ground.
Southern Beale
Remember the Grapes of Wrath, where troublemakers break into the workers’ camp and try to stir up shit? That’s a true story … a friend of mine’s grandmother was there.
Anyway, nothing has changed in 80 years:
The Dangerman
@jwb:
It’s a loser for the Republicans and Boehner must know it. He either finds a way to break the Tea Party or will have to deal with the Dems and toss the Tea Party overboard. Both are losing positions on top of the loser of the shut down. He should be shitting masonry on March 3rd.
Elia
@Southern Beale: This is straight from the Segretti/Rove “ratfucking” playbook, as well.
Pooh
@Elia: Yeah, I pretty much took the “to be fair” link to be at least partially sarcastic.
I’m not sure how much Wisconsin has radicalized me vs. how much it’s just pissed me off. I’m big on process, and just changing the rules in the middle of the game rarely sits well with me. As I’ve commented other places, there is a reasonable debate to be had over the merits of public sector unions (for example my father for a time was counsel for the local school district, and trying to fire teachers he were pretty clearly fuckwads was harder than it needed to be), but the rank hypocrisy and attempts to gin up hysteria in Wisconsin is, to get all technical and lawyerly here, bullshit.
SteveinSC
@Elia: While Obama has to be circumspect in what he does to avoid looking like he is directly intervening in a state matter, he has no choice but to take a stand, if only to say, “look, compromise is how American government works. I have agreed to do so with republicans, how can the Governor of Wisconsin do less?” Otherwise he really will be President Harold Ford III.
stuckinred
Hey editor. I wrote a story about the 4th of July and it was caught in the spam filter. Can it get freed up?
Southern Beale
@Elia:
Yep. Ratfucking was my first thought.
I’m sure both sides do it though.
/sarcasm
stuckinred
@Southern Beale: Why would anyone think it wasn’t true. Read “In Dubious Battle” too.
jwb
@The Dangerman: I hope you’re right, but I fear the teabaggers have him by the balls and won’t let go.
Elia
@Pooh: Yeah, I agree with a lot of this. To be honest, I’m not very positively inclined towards teachers unions either (though I don’t feel the basis for my sentiment is substantive enough that I want to defend it, i.e. “Waiting for Superman”). But the way in which I’ve felt radicalized by this is feeling like it’s time to pick a side, and deal with the specifics of policy etc. after this assault from the hard-right has ceased or subsided. Maybe I’ll calm down in a few weeks, though; who knows.
joe from Lowell
@SteveinSC: Oooohhh. I like that.
This is about unions that want to sit down and negotiate, and Republicans who don’t.
Baud
@SteveinSC: You mean something like what Obama has already said:
jwb
@Southern Beale: That kind of ratfucking is hard to pull off if folks are ready for it, and they were ready for it already this past weekend.
Pooh
@Elia: I’m not anti-teacher’s unions at all, in theory. I think their focus on defending tenure at all costs is misguided, but if there is a non-first responded profession I want to see insulated at least to some extent from the political process, it’s teachers.
The Dangerman
@jwb:
I suppose it’s going to go one of 2 ways; either short or youhavegottobefuckingjoking long. I just can’t picture the real Orange Satan letting it go the latter; he can’t be THAT stupid. Can he?
Southern Beale
@stuckinred:
Dunno. I just think most people assume Grapes of Wrath is fiction and don’t realize it’s based on Steinbeck’s work as a journalist covering California’s migrant workers. While the Joads weren’t real people many of the events actually happened and their story was typical of Dust Bowl refugees.
One of my best friends was the grandchild of Dust Bowl refugees, the “Okies.” She grew up in the San Joaquin Valley.
stuckinred
@Southern Beale: The dopes!
SteveinSC
@Doug Hill: I was trying to offer a follow-on to the Joe Hill link with this one. I hope this one works. If not I will try to delete the post. Sorry if it fucks up.
Pooh
@The Dangerman: I don’t think Boehner really has THAT much control of the situation – they voted down a military procurement contract which was awarded to Boehner’s district – think about that for a second. A DEFENSE PROJECT GOING TO THE REPUBLICAN SPEAKER’S HOME DISTRICT FOR A SEXY PLANE ENGINE got voted down by these guys…
Southern Beale
@jwb:
Remember Phil Parlock? The “union thug” on the left is widely assumed to be one of his sons.
jwb
@The Dangerman: I don’t think he’s that stupid; he clearly wants a deal. Rather I think he lacks that much control over his caucus, and if he breaks with the caucus and makes a deal bringing along a just enough Republicans to make the deal, the caucus will skewer him (and those he brings along with him).
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Elia: Whatever ambivalence I may have towards teachers unions–and big organization is gonna stumble, any national organization is gonna get into trouble applying, as an example, urban rules to rural areas and vice versa–but whatever mistakes they may make, they’re more than outweighed, in my mind, by the steaming piles of shit dropped on them, from anti-science cranks getting on school-boards and in the Congress and in the Senate, to the general lack of respect on every level, from pay levels to hostile treatment from students, parents, etc. Just the other day I read an oped from some yutz saying “budget cuts are not a big deal, just increase class size!”.
Odie Hugh Manatee
I just got done sending Senator Wyden a long letter from a couple of his constituents. It’s a long letter but it lets him know that we are behind him 110% but he and his party need to do more to counter the divide and conquer actions that the wealthy and Republicans are employing to pit people against each other while they finish looting our economy and drowning our government in a barely filled bathtub.
I am sure that he is hearing from the nuts and we wanted to counter that by letting him know that while we have been fairly quiet, there are people out there who can see this mess for what it is and we know that it has to be stopped. Public workers are not getting golden parachutes and posh retirement accounts when compared to the public at large. Their unions have been successful in keeping their pay and benefits up with inflation and the economy. That their pay and benefits only look like they are solid gold because the non-union American workers have been reduced to working for potmetal pay and benefits.
The rich and their untaxed asses are killing us. We need to tax them back into the Eisenhower years if we want a return to ‘the good ol’ days’.
Southern Beale
I DO think it will be hard to disguise senior citizens on their Hoverounds as SIEU employees. Can’t imagine they’ll get too many takers. Maybe some James O’Keefe wannabes.
The Dangerman
@jwb:
Seems that way and a deal is going to be a loser for him, one way or another. That’s why I see it being short; take the hit, cut your losses. No idea how he navigates the maze, however.
Cacti
Contrary to popular belief, the GOP usually captures a respectable share of the union vote. George W. Bush took 37% in 2004.
But they’ve overplayed their hand. The GOP union voter will flee from them the way Latinos did in 2008.
Doug Hill
@Pooh:
There are plenty of debates to be had about high-school education. I’ll tell you what, though, that job gets un-unionized and we’re looking at fucking Walmartification of education. And all supervised by the same crazy incompetent fucks who gave us Iraq.
RinaX
@Baud:
Yeah, he should totally say that. Oh wait…
Doug Hill
@Cacti:
Yup, exactly. 37% is low for non-college whites, but it can get lower. If union is the new black, we can get this down to 20%.
Elia
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Preaching to the choir, in the sense that I think teachers are, generally, some of the most inspiring and noble and truly laudable people in the world. I get quite sentimental and rhapsodic about it, really. There’s just something awe-inspiring about those who put their heart and soul into it, because it’s a damned hard job — I’d imagine one of the absolute hardest — and it’s not nearly appreciated (culturally & financially) enough.
At the same time, I’ve read and seen enough to know that there are some very real problems with the biggest unions, and that, in some regard — but most certainly not all — they can be an impediment to reform.
Hence my very real ambivalence.
Southern Beale
@Cacti:
I read somewhere today (wish I could remember where) that only 57% of union members identify as Democrats. But I have to wonder if that reflects police officers and other law enforcement types?
Funny, really, how some Tea Party police officers I know will squeal like a stuck pig if anyone tries to mess with the FOP’s benefits. It’s always a different scenario when it’s THEIR benefits affected.
Martin
@Pooh: The front line of every culture battle right now is teachers and schools. Every one. Without tenure, we’d have teachers being fired left and right for teaching sex ed, evolution, that the South fired first, and so on. Tenure is more critical now than ever, but that’s only the fault of the wingnuts.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@The Dangerman:
Umm, how about Baby we were born to waddle? As fat as our country is getting, I think that’s all we will be capable of.
SteveinSC
@Doug Hill: Thanks for the Joe Hill link. I have one that might be apropos here.
Pooh
@Doug Hill: Obviously, I tend to agree with you. But like I said upthread, my anger over this issue has virtually nothing to do with the actual merits of public employee unions.
jfxgillis
@Elia:
Actually, Yglesias said the MOST IMPORTANT THING about this subject, and he said it last Saturday, and you’ll see me on the thread over there on Saturday saying that he said the MOST IMPORTANT THING on this subject.
What he said was, because of the regressive and undemocratic Labor law regime we have in this country grounded in the Taft-Hartley Act, the Union movement in this country is doomed.
As I said then, when some Tea Party type under the delusion they’re “populist” starts talking about the working man getting screwed, I always mention 14(b) to them and all I ever get back is a blank stare.
arguingwithsignposts
@Doug Hill: Shouldn’t you be Doug Guthrie? Or Doug Seeger? You seem to be more the musical type. Just askin’
arguingwithsignposts
@jfxgillis: Yglesias is a libertarian in progressive clothing. He’s shown that already with his barbershop inanity. A certified member of the juice-box mafia.
Cacti
@Southern Beale:
I was just reading that John Kasich received 37% of the union vote in his gubernatorial election.
Talk about lining up to have your own throat slit.
Pooh
@Martin: I wasn’t suggesting we end tenure – as I said upthread, I think teachers should be insulated from raw politics. My problem is that the maximalist position on tenure might get in the way of real educational improvement. Additionally, does it make any sense to have to resort to litigation to fire teachers who have been convicted of multiple DUIs? I know the plural of anecdote isn’t data, but I’ll be damned if my father didn’t have to litigate that situation 3 separate times when I was in HS.
Southern Beale
@Cacti:
Yeah cuz the firefighters and police unions endorsed him. These unionsi ALWAYS endorse Republican candidates. I have to wonder if they didn’t get a bit of a wakeup call … even though they are exempt from this legislation, they have to be nervous. They could be next.
Pooh
@Southern Beale: Apparently, it was 61% nationwide last fall.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Elia:
Yeah, I’m just rambling> It’s one of the many head-banging moments I have when I hear teachers scapegoated, and the fact that teacher (union, but I don’t think here’s a huge difference) bashing is one of the checklist items to Serious status in the Beltway, down to neighborhood blowhards carrying on about how they’d love to have a job with three months off every year! (so they can paint houses and work at the Hallmark Store, they never say)
@Southern Beale: I have a lot of cousins and family friends who are in the construction field. All strong union guys, but FoxNews conservatives. They run in age from 40 to early fifties, Abortion, “terrorism”, guns, even shit like the pledge of allegiance speaks to them. Paranoid nativism personified, and in person, one-on-one, some of the nicest, friendliest guys (these are all guys, and most of their wives are right in there with them, especially on abortion) you’d ever want to meet. Like Hank Hill, there the guys you want next door when there’s something wrong with your car or you need help with some home repair. Still at the state level, this could drive them to vote D; I don’t know what Wisconsin recall laws are like, but a lot of the guys I’m talking about would sign those petitions
Binzinerator
My septegenarian father took his sign and his support to the Madison State Capitol today. He spent several hours circling the square and several more in the Rotunda, while my Mom took care of their grandkids while I and my wife worked today. He walked down Main street at 6 to where I work and I took him home to warm up.
I’m damed proud of my old man.
And by the way, he never belonged to a union in his life, and was a life-long Goldwater-voting republican until ten years ago.
Yesterday, he, my 70-year-old mom and I walked a half-mile up icy sidewalks to join the protesters in the Capitol Rotunda. The only rudeness I witnessed was the guy who slowed his car and rolled his window down to yell at us “Walker won, assholes.” Then he sped off.
My parents didn’t say anything, they just kept walking up that hill.
Grover's Bathtub
It’s worth noting that the GOP attack on unions includes defunding the National Labor Relations Board, the agency that investigates and remedies unfair labor practices. Rep Tom Price (R-GA) introduced an amendment to defund the agency completely. The amendment was said to have passed a voice vote, but a Democratic Congressman insisted on a recorded vote, and it failed. The GOP budget that passed represents a huge cut, and will likely result in long furloughs.
vonhonkington
fyi, the ad below this post states: defund obamacare!
always gives me a chuckle. like how ads at wonkette tell me to buy sarah palin’s book. yeah, i’ll definitely do that.
Southern Beale
Well I certainly find it interesting that since “right to work” laws have become so popular in states around the country, wages have stagnated and even fallen.
Very interesting.
I’m turning in, dogs woke me up at 4 this morning … g’night peeps.
Doug Hill
@Binzinerator:
Great story!
jfxgillis
@arguingwithsignposts:
Irrelevant. He’s right about Taft-Hartley. And I’m not a libertarian. When I was a boy I was taught the three things you never do:
1. You never eat meat on Friday;
2. You never root for the Montreal Canadiens;
3. You never cross a picket line.
mikefromArlington
First time the WH, FDL, Krugman, this place and all the other progressive, liberal and Democratically leaning blogs have coalesced behind an issue since the 2008 elections.
Thanks Koch and Walker.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Binzinerator:
That’s something I’ve been wondering about: Was there any discussion of this, any at all, in the campaign?
Elia
@Binzinerator: So cool. Thanks for sharing.
snarkyspice
@Baud:
Amen. And can we stop with picking Harold Ford as the one Obama is supposedly like? Sheesh. We get it, they’re both black.
Binzinerator
Septuagenarian not septegenarian. Teh Spell Stoopid has afflicted me like a teabagger.
Doug Hill
@jfxgillis:
Yup, heard that before, though not with the Habs.
Jeffro
You’d almost hope for the emergence of a ‘Big Picture’ Party.
You’d almost wonder who could command national attention and speak well to these sorts of themes…and how to get that person a megaphone…
JWL
“Remember which side you’re on and they’ll never keep us down”.
That utterance encapsulates so much full-of-crapdom that I don’t know where to begin.
So I won’t even try.
Yutsano
@jfxgillis:
Ah. So you’re a heathen. Go Habs.
superking
Some days I honestly don’t understand how the country is going to survive. More than half of the voting population has no connection to reality and is completely motivated by spite.
freelancer
Oh, wow, Daily Show FAIL. Camels are not tauntauns, Mr. Oliver.
MikeBoyScout
All,
Let’s understand something.
The rights of Laborers to bargain collectively was not a miracle resulting from political treatises and highfalutin speeches.
The rights of Labor were won with the blood of Laborers.
Our prosperous middle class was won with the blood of those fighting to improve their lot; on the side of Unions and as mercenary soldiers on the side of the entrenched power elite.
Florence Reece understood this. Do we?
SteveinSC
So, now how does that Democratic National Convention look going to union-busting Charlotte? Where will it be, in the Harold Ford Convention Center?
Binzinerator
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:Regarding the “Walker won” thing, I haven’t heard this before until then.
Must be a new Rush Limbaugh talking point being focus tested.
Omnes Omnibus
@Southern Beale: Warning: Anecdotal data. Over the past several days, I have watch the police dealing with protester in Madison and they seem very much in sympathy with them. On Saturday, I the difference in attitude and heard the difference in tone of voice that was used in talking to pro-union protesters and that used with Tea Partiers. It was stark.
jfxgillis
@Doug Hill:
Doug:
Red Wings then, unless you were UAW.
jwb
@Binzinerator: Yay, to your dad!
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Southern Beale:
I’m going to grill one of my customers, a full metal racist redneck wingnut from Georgia who is employed as prison guard at Pelican Bay and enjoys platinum-plated benefits, about this issue. As an aside, it is interesting that he moved here to earn a better living but he still loves his homeland of Georgia. I’m going to point out that although he doesn’t have to worry too much about his goodies getting cut because Brown is governor, he may have to worry about the precedent set if Walker gets away with what he is trying. Right now it’s the teachers and public workers but when that proves not to be enough he can be sure that cops, firefighters and prison workers will be next to the chopping block.
If Walker ‘wins’ and California elects a Republican for governor in the next election, there may be a good chance of his pay and benefits getting cut. Hell, If Walker is successful it might give Brown the ammo he needs to go after the powerful California prison guard union.
It ought to be interesting to see what he has to say about this…lol
Comrade Luke
Since E.D would like to come over to our side, and we do a swap with him & Yglesias?
That guy’s worthless.
jfxgillis
@Yutsano:
Nope. Catholic. The Rangers fans were heathen.
Another Commenter at Balloon Juice (fka Bella Q)
@The Dangerman: The Real Orange Satan is actually pretty dumb, and he loves his booze. Which is really how he’s risen through the ranks – by being a great drinking bud to the folks with the $$. And he has far less control of the tea bag types in his caucus than he does of say, his 3 wood. So it could truly drag on.
I think we will see GOP overreach a lot this year. I’m hoping we’ll see a good turnout at Ohio’s protest tomorrow, and the WI folks have lots of support from lots of places. The Rs are in for a bumpier ride than they expected, I think.
jnfr
Best thing I read today was that someone in Egypt sent Ian’s Pizza some money for pizza for the Madison protesters.
junebug
@Binzinerator: Just beautiful.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@vonhonkington:
Good Al Gore rhythms; teh advertizers just don’t haz them.
The Dangerman
@Another Commenter at Balloon Juice (fka Bella Q):
The Shutdown (or lack thereof) is the pregame show; the Debt Limit increase should be a ton of fun.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Odie Hugh Manatee: Heh. I got Rand Paul’s head exhorting me to sign a petition for “Right to Work: The BILL OBAMA FEARS!”
and “find right wing gear” at CafePress. I don’t even click on links to the wingers to laff at them. Don’t know why they’re offering me this crap
Jules
Well McMegan blamed it on Obama so it must be true….
Another Commenter at Balloon Juice (fka Bella Q)
@Binzinerator: Heartwarming tale, eloquently told. Thank you. And thank your parents from me as well, please.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Because the algorithms in the advertisers code sucks green donkey dicks (ETA: Hell, if they even have them). More than likely this is deliberate so they can claim larger advertising fees for plastering their shit everywhere, even in places where people will laugh at it and nobody will ever be interested.
Hell, let them rip off the crazies who want to pay for this shit.
SeaMonkey + FlashBlock + NoScript + direct donations to John here = clean & lean ad-free reading.
And it’s that way everywhere on teh intert00bs!
sven
@Comrade Luke: It is astounding how far to the right MYglesias has swung. His take on events in Wisconsin is especially disgusting.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Odie Hugh Manatee:
Yeah, I always chuckle when I see Michelle Bachmann trying to raise money here.
jefft452
”Additionally, does it make any sense to have to resort to litigation to fire teachers who have been convicted of multiple DUIs?”
If there were no Unions, and teacher could be fired “at will”, how easy would it be to fire a teacher who has been convicted of multiple DUIs … if his dad is on the city council?
Not having worker protections dosent result in the “bad” workers getting fired and the “good” workers getting promoted
Instead it invariably results in incompetent cronies, yes men, and patronage jobs to friends and mistresses
asiangrrlMN
@Binzinerator: Love this story. It’s very heartwarming. Keep them coming, Cheeseheads!
MikeBoyScout
”Additionally, does it make any sense to have to resort to litigation to fire teachers who have been convicted of multiple DUIs?”
Good point. Line up all those teachers who have been convicted of multiple DUIs against the wall and ….
[sarcasm]
Or, you know, one could put a code of conduct in to a – what do you call it? – contract.
And I’m sure the facts show that all of our problems with education and fiscal policy are the result of teachers driving under the influence of alcohol and drugs. [more sarcasm]
J. Michael Neal
@Odie Hugh Manatee:
Don’t say this. I don’t want there to be *anything* that even provides the slightest glimmer that Walker’s plan is a good idea. You just violated that premise.
jfxgillis
sven:
Let’s go over this again. Yglesias’s take is not disgusting. It’s brutal, but it’s true.
I was born and raised a trades unionist. When I was in grad school I spent days on Ron Carey’s UPS picket lines for fun.
I was involved in the ultimately failed organization of a Fortune 500 company plant with over 400 employees in the unit. And it was how and why that effort failed that drove my understanding of the pernicious evil of Taft-Hartley like a spike through my brain.
When the company pulled out their coup de grace, the two professional organizers for the Aluminum Workers told we three activist regular employees, “We’re going to lose now.” The pros were willing to make the loss noisy, which would mean we’d get fired and sue and settle and blah blah, but we could just take the loss quietly and go back to to work. Up to us.
We took it quietly.
J. Michael Neal
@sven: Are you a parody or something? You find someone who laments that EFCA wasn’t passed, in the very post you link to, to be disgusting?
Binzinerator
@Another Commenter at Balloon Juice (fka Bella Q): to you and others: I’ll pass it on to my Dad and Mom. I do tell them they’re awesome, it’s not hard for me to speak the truth.
And thanks to everyone for their support. I wouldn’t presume to speak for everyone, it’s a complex situation for most of us, but there’s a lot of people here who believe we can figure this out without throwing bricks through their neighbor’s window.
J. Michael Neal
@asiangrrlMN: Yeah, for all the grief I give them, the paint thinner crew to our east is surprisingly not so bad. I guess. Better than what we have to the west, at any rate.
J. Michael Neal
@Binzinerator:
I’m going slowly with mine. Dad really doesn’t like unions for some reason I’ve never figured out. Right now, they’re backing the Republican governor’s budget plan in Michigan. I’m surprised at my mother on this.
Since Dad’s a professor at the University of Michigan, I sent them an email this evening praising Charles Woodson. It was smart of the protestors to sign a free agent whose specialty is preventing anyone from passing anything.
Yutsano
@J. Michael Neal:
Oh do you fight dirty. You go!
Omnes Omnibus
@J. Michael Neal:Consider the Woodson line stolen.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@J. Michael Neal:
Hell, I exist to violate…lol! You are right though, the Cali prison guard union has whipped up some killer benefits for their people. This guy I’m talking about took home a paycheck of almost $10,000.00 last month.
You read that right, ten grand. Granted, it was his regular hours plus tons of overtime and mileage having to escort a prisoner who was almost killed (and who he thinks the state is wasting money on saving) all over Oregon, guarding him at the hospitals he was kept at.
Sweet gig, that’s for sure. All of that OT counts towards his retirement and he has been building quite the retirement for many years now.
I am sure that he would hate to see that threatened…lol
Nicole473
We have to win it now. If we don’t, we are very probably finished as a major party.
huh. “impeachable offense”, my derrière. I think we should start screaming re the involvement in politics by certain members of SCOTUS, look at impeachment.
kideni
@Omnes Omnibus: More anecdata: from what I could see on Saturday, the anti-bill people were respectful and friendly to the cops and have been since this all started, while the tea partiers demanded more attention. The tea partiers just seemed more nervous and edgy, probably because they watch Fox and actually believed that a riot was imminent. One of my friends was in the midst of a large crowd walking the perimeter of the Capitol, and a tea party family started calling for security help. An officer made his way through to see what the problem was, and they said that they were with the tea party, and would he please clear the way so that they could pass through. The officer said very politely that they would just have to make their way through like everyone else.
Also, I think the cops know darned well that even though they aren’t being targeted this time, that doesn’t mean they aren’t next.
Omnes Omnibus
@kideni:
it is the same thing with the private sector unions. I saw quite a few with signs with their union ID and “Just Practicing” on them.
Moses2317
Doug, I’ve put together a guide to getting involved in this fight, including a schedule of rallies, links for submitting LTEs and contacting state legislators and Governors, etc. Feel free to share it on BJ if you’d like.
http://www.winningprogressive.org/updated-guide-to-supporting-workers-and-their-unions-in-wisconsin-ohio-and-throughout-the-country
kideni
@Omnes Omnibus: Absolutely. There’s definitely a sense of intraunion solidarity, which the speakers at the noontime rally certainly pounded home (from the Steelworkers, SEIU, AFL-CIO, a couple of different teachers unions, AFSCME, and I’m sure others; Tom Morello represented musicians and Wobblies, of course). I’m not in a union (and I’m not even a state worker any longer), and I’m sure fired up for whatever collective action needs to be done.
kideni
And another thing for Wisconsinites here, or people who know Wisconsinites. I e-mailed my Assembly rep and Senator to thank them for their good work, and I got a pleasant auto-reply from the rep urging me not only to also contact Walker himself and express my objections (I’ve done so), but to encourage any Wisconsinites outside of Dane County to contact him. So please spread the word so that Walker can’t just dismiss the protesters as just capital-area commies that he doesn’t have to listen to.
gnomedad
@Binzinerator:
Last I heard, Obama won also. I guess winning only counts if you’re Republican.
pattonbt
Sorry, haven’t read all the comments yet, but I do not think this is going to be a winner, I actually think it will end pretty badly. There is still too much casual talk taken at face value across the entire political spectrum about how “we have to reign in government spending and employees”. The R’s have picked an easy target and at a perfect time and they are going to win. This is like the demographic time bomb argument (about the R party being defunct in 20 years). It looks rock solid on paper, but real life doesn’t play that way. This is an emotional argument.
I am a cynic and do not believe the US can really recover or move to become the type of country I want it to be (or the one it purports to be in all it’s propaganda). I think too many structural changes have happened in the last couple of decades that any real progressive improvement in the US is decades away at a minimum. It’s going to be hard for the labor market in the US to be what it once was and the rich are sitting in the proverbial catbird seat. The disparity is going to get much wider before it gets better. People want jobs and in a bad structurally changed labor market they will sell their old benefits for the crumbs the rich will offer. And they will fight to keep these degraded positions because, what choice do they have? So the rich can easily stoke neighbour against neighbour while reaping the (short sighted) rewards.
What’s really interesting to me is to watch how smoothly the newest right wing talking point gets causally inserted into arguments and just accepted as fact – obviously among the right leaning sect but even among the middle and left sects. Over the last few weeks the “reducing government employee wages/benefits” meme and those being the economy killers has just become gospel and matter of fact. Weird. I wonder how people’s brains can work so strangely that they can just assimilate nonsense so quickly (although I do know it is because it is easier for the mind to latch onto things that sound simple that support already held deep beliefs). It still is amazing to me though.
Pooh
170 and 172, yes a code of conduct policy that makes sense WOULD be great. The maximalist position on tenure is incompatible with this because it gets slippery-sloped all to hell. Id basically always err on the side of the worker, but in some cases the actual policies don’t make sense. This isn’t meant to be an argument against collective bargaining, rather for smarter bargaining, on both sides.
Joey Maloney
@Top: some wingers even suggesting that Obama’s involvement is an impeachable offense. That’s a sign of fear.
It’s not a sign of fear, it’s just a reflex. Anything Obama does, or doesn’t do, or is accused of doing is an impeachable offense if Murdoch puts it in today’s talking points memorandum.
Spaghetti Lee
@pattonbt:
I certainly hope you’re wrong. I do think thought that one way or another, this is the big one. If we lose, that’s it. But if we win, it could be the start of something big.
pattonbt
@Spaghetti Lee:
Whenever I let me cynicism take hold I always say I will gladly be proven wrong! And one thing that can be counted on more than my cynicism is how wrong I often am at prognostication. Hence why it is not my profession (although I’m not very good at that either, but I’ve got my boss and company snookered to believe the opposite!).
So I’ve got that going for me.
CaliCat
I remember my dad singing this when I was a kid: “It’s that UAW-CIO makes the army roll an go. Turning out those jeeps and tanks and airplanes everyday”. I used to sing it along with him. It’s a nice memory. He died when I was 9. He also sang another song – something about “the finks and the company pinks”. I think I’ll Google it.
CaliCat
…It was from “Union Maid” but I’m pretty sure he changed the lyric from “company finks” to “company pinks” referring to the Pinkertons.
aimai
@Pooh:
What makes you think Teacher’s Unions have a “focus” on tenure “first” or “at all costs?” Teacher’s unions work on hundreds of issues related to teacher and child safety, work conditions, grading, etc… Tenure is just one of those issues. Frankly, the whole issue is overblown and misunderstood–just like unions generally. When a union gets a *concession* like health care benefits, or tenure, or seniority rules (which are different from tenure) those are almost always in place of cash money. Historically governments and employers have used benefits as a way of lowering direct costs (pay) with deferred payments and goodies. Its not something the teacher’s union is doing to the bargaining system or to the employer. Its a compromise between competing imperatives: getting and keeping experienced people, rewarding them with little money but some job security.
aimai
shortstop
My dog, the GOP is right about our lax sexual morality on the left! Just made a donation to the WI Teaching Assistants’ Association and learned this:
lllphd
fwiw, new poll out:
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2011/02/new_poll_of_wisconsin.php?ref=fpblg
walker will not like it.