I just can’t imagine any one of those clowns on stage becoming President, but I know they have a solid chance if they win the nomination. It’s enough to make me start investing in goats and generators.
Surely this has to be a lowpoint in the American experiment.
Gozer
Let’s see if Trump decides to “run”.
Surreal American
Hey! Don’t try to pin this on me!
gnomedad
I see tag potential here.
Angela
Why goats?
amk
amurikkka is fucked up country, indeedy.
jl
I thought Cole already had goats and generators.
David Richey
GOP debate: Spoiled children, righteously ignorant, mendaciously malignant, behaving badly. It’s like a hyperventilating form of inverse Socraticism:
“I don’t know only that I don’t know anything!”
John Weiss
John, calm yourself. None of these clowns stands a chance. Imagine a debate between Romney – or the Newtster given that the Republican machine would allow his nomination – and PBO. Geeze: an elephant gun vs. gnats.
cokane
“notice that any defense of environmental policy is finished in this party. The environment is the enemy. Oil companies can do no wrong – even after the disaster in the Gulf of Mexico.”
I thought this quote from sullivan was pretty good capture of how surreal the debate was. Same thing could be said for an independent judiciary.
amk
hackperin grades
Romney A-, Bachmann B+, Santorum B, Gingrich B-, Paul B-, Perry C-, Huntsman C-.
Fucking surreal indeedy. willard fucked up totally and his village minions are stroking him up to give him a hard-on.
jl
I dunno. The Fox color team kept saying it was not raucous at all, absolutely not raucous, but rather very thoughtful dignified and serious. And it wasn’t raucous.
Somebody should have told the production people who seemed to be running a cross between a Monday night NFL sporting contest and a game show.
The way the audience acted, I thought there must be APPLAUSE and CHEER signs flashing for the breaks.
MikeJ
@John Weiss: Romney will walk onstage and wet himself and the tv talking heads will talk about his bold ideas.
gaz
@John Weiss: I agree.
And let’s face it. Barring miracles or natural disasters, acts of god, etc…Romney will win the GOP nom and lose the general.
Pretty sure we’ve all kinda known this on some level for quite awhile. Certainly, I’ve maintained that since the clown car began rolling.
Most of these clowns are too crazy, even for people that voted for W the first time around.
Southern Beale
It’s the end of the empire, John. I imagine Portugal probably went through a period like this, too.
amk
More than 2 hours. And none of these muthafuckahs said a word about jobs.
gaz
@amk: He’s clearly grading on a curve.
heh
(even so, A- was the best they got. wrap your head around that one =P )
Brian S
It’s not 1860, but it can sure feel like it some days.
freelancer
Sully quoted me on the gmail chime, but his analysis is ridiculously, absurdly positive. He’s going off onto one of those Sully flights of fancy again.
It’s like there’s some kind of platonic starbursts in his prose. “I like Bachmann’s feminism!” “OMG Huntsman would stand up to the banks unlike Obama who hasn’t!”
What feminism?! She reminds you of Thatcher? WTF?! And Obama was the one who said to the banks “I’m the only thing standing between you and the American people. And they are pissed.”
What fucking piffle.
David Richey
@John Weiss:
Might be true if Obama was less risk averse and more assertive (and principled) in drawing bright lines of distinction betwixt reasonable and crazy. He ain’t.
So when you play patty-cake and pre-compromise w/people of horrendous bad faith, as does Obama, thereby validating on an equal footing the radicalism of a reactionary demagoguic movement, it’s my opinion that anything, regrettably, is possible.
jl
@amk: Funny, I had them all down as F minus. Guess I am a hard grader.
They all seemed like losers tonight, which made me happy. Maybe that happy impression will enable me to quit these total wastes of time.
I feel like a kid watching pro wrestling, wondering, even as a kid, why I was wasting my time with such nonsense. Except, pro wrestling was a better show all around.
Linda Featheringill
@amk:
That may be the most pertinent observation I’ve seen yet.
boss bitch
Who is telling these GOP candidates that America wants another war?
And bringing judges before Congress? Terrorists in South and Central America? Don’t ask for the drone just bomb it or go
get it?
Fuck me.
ruemara
Well, I’ve had 3 friends tell me that they most certainly won’t be voting for Obama in 2012 over the NDAA. I know that he hasn’t signed it yet, but he will because yadayada. He’s terrible, blahblah, voting green, blahblah. Somehow, Obama also came up with this bill, according to the Guardian. I guess Senate exists to breathe on plants in the buildings. I can’t truly say they are alone, because I’ve heard a number of people saying things in that vein. I wish I could say that. I wish I could take my ball and say that if I don’t get this thing I’m staying home in November 2012. There’s some real class differences here. I have to vote strategically and never give up, because my foes are dangerous, have money and worked for decades for America to be like this. I don’t know how anyone thinks that a vote is a valentine as opposed to a move on a chess board, but considering the massive fail parade of lunacy that can possibly be your president, your senator, hell, your dogcatcher, you’d think that voting like your life depends on it would be the one damned sensible thing that liberals and progressives learn.
gaz
@jl: Less faking and camera tricks, for certain.
More intellectually stimulating as well.
And the wrestlers made cogent points while attacking each other verbally between the matches where they attack each other physically.
Now that I think of it, the next GOP “debate” better have a cage and a ref, or I’m tuning out.
clayton
way to stomp Cole.
gaz
@ruemara: A-fucking-men
Hill Dweller
The last 20 years have been surreal.
jl
@Linda Featheringill:
I think to the audience they did, in WingCode.
Santorum will end all regulations! Every one of them.
Perry will free the states up for crony capitalism!
Willard thinks, yes he does, that manufacturing will come back. He really thinks that and is not fibbing.
Newt will threaten to kill payroll tax holiday and unemployment insurance extension for oil pipeline that will bring Twenty Thousand Jobs. Damn, twenty thousand oil jobs. He reminded me of Dr Evil demanding one million dollars.
I don’t think any of that will fly outside of Wingnutland.
Jerzy Russian
I don’t know whether to point and laugh, or crawl under the bed and hide.
Suffern ACE
@ruemara:
And none of those muthafuckas said a word about jobs.
gaz
@jl: do you really need to play with Newt’s name?
I’ve heard people claim that it’s short for newton, but I don’t buy it.
gaz
@Jerzy Russian: I suggest hedging.
Crawl under the bed, and from there, point and laugh.
Brian S
@ruemara: Long time between now and next November, which means a long time for voters to recognize the batshittiness of whoever the Republican candidate is and realize that Obama, no matter how he’s disappointed them, is loads better.
Hill Dweller
@ruemara: Can you link the Guardian article?
jl
@gaz: It was a typo, I fixed it. I have been trying to sell what should be an obvious fact that Gingrich looks like a cross between a blobfish and an obese naked mole rat, but no one listens.
So, I give up and just call him Newt.
Edit: and I can’t turn that combo into a catchy name.
gaz
@Brian S: I’m fairly certain that’s already happened – postulations of the VSP/MSM/usual suspects notwithstanding.
PK
Why Goats? Generators I get, but why are goats so special?
The prophet Nostradumbass
@PK: They produce milk, can be eaten, will eat practically anything, and are fairly easy to raise.
jurassicpork
There ANOTHER GOP debate tonight? That explains the calliopes I heard in the background. These seven clowns have been on TV more times than James Arness and Walter Cronkite combined.
Hey, peeps. Mrs. JP and I could use a bit of help this Christmas. Any assistance would be so appreciated. In fact, I’ll even kick in copies of both my novels.
ruemara
@Hill Dweller: It was linked in GG’s screed on this. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/dec/15/americans-face-guantanamo-detention-obama?CMP=twt_gu
This whole thing is tie Obama’s hands even further with the remaining Gitmo prisoners. This is about Gitmo. The damage to civil liberties is probably collateral. except for Lindsey Graham, who really wants the ability to lock up citizens indefinitely.
Suffern ACE
@PK: Goats reproduce like crazy and produce milk and are more resilient than modern breeds of cows. Can raise them on less land. I’m not much a fan of the meat, but i’d get used to it.
jl
@PK: Goats are the go to domestic animal for surviving in a post apocalyptic, threat rich, barren wasteland where only the strongest can survive. Them other animals will konk out but goats will get you through (Edit: the night, might as well add that since some one else will anyway). They can live on tin cans. I read that in books. Or at least I saw a cartoon once.
If you could train a honey badger, probably would want one of those too. Which is something I might want to look into to, if I can hire a guy to do it for me, then I would make some infomercials for whatever Beck is on these days.
OK, that is it. No more GOP primary debates, It is beginning to affect my brain.
Villago Delenda Est
Their masters of the Likud.
gaz
@jl: He does.
I just took a rough “google poll”
(Autosuggest on “Newt looks like”
Results include,
A car bomber – Chris Matthews
Why does Newt Gingrich constantly look like a smug douchebag? – from Yahoo answers,
“Gingrich looks like a volatile guy to have his finger on the button.” (Some guy from reason)
Among various unsavory things about what Camille looks like – heh.
People clearly don’t like the man much.
To me, he just looks like a mean, chubby, privileged, old white asshole with a small cock. (And yes – you can basically tell – ask teh ladies)
But I’m being charitable.
dww44
@ruemara: Thanks for your whole post but particularly for this:
Now, let those of us who agree put some feet on the ground in the New Year and convince enough of our fellow citizens to think and ACT the same way, all the while doing our part to refranchise the elderly, minorities, students who’ve been disenfranchised by the spate of GOP governors and legislatures that the crazies threw into office last year.
Ron Beasley
No, canned food and an assault rifle would be better although goats and draft animals would be wise.
Surreal American
What depresses me is that one of these cretins is going to be the GOP nominee, which automatically guarantees that individual 40 to 45 percent of the vote in the general election.
Platonicspoof
Don’t tell DougJ.
gaz
@PK:
Clearly you haven’t been properly inducted into the balloon juice commentariat yet.
Gentlemen, COMMENCE WITH THE HAZING
**bahhh**
heh
DanielX
We’re partying through the autumn of our heyday…and so forth. It is depressing that one of the two major political parties in America can’t come up with any better candidates than this bunch of…clowns. But then the Republicans aren’t really a political party any more. They’re more like a cult or religious movement (if there’s any difference). It’s a faith based movement…faith in the free market, faith in bombing brown people, faith in less regulation and so forth. The current group of candidates is just one of the logical outcomes of this evolution. They don’t have to be smart, they just have to believe, or at least present the appearance of belief, the same way the faithful believe. Of course, after eight years of having a major league dumb fuck as president, the rest of the country may not be ready for another faith-based presidency quite this soon, no matter how bad the economy is….
jl
OK, I have wasted enough time (on GOP debate, not on the brave and intrepid band that is the BJ commentariate)
Tonight my impression was the whole sick crew looked like total losers tuned all the way up to maximum fail. Which was some comfort.
gaz
@DanielX: When I get like that, I try to remember that this country survived The John Birch Society, the KKK, and Ronald Reagan.
It’s not much, but we may pull through this shit yet.
Movement conservatism is bad for America. But America is used to it (I think – or maybe – hope)
Suffern ACE
@Ron Beasley: Chickens, geese, rabbits and guinea pigs just don’t get the love in the post apocalyptic future.
MikeJ
@Angela:
He’s sharing a shelter with Micky Kaus.
Dee Loralei
Twitter is saying Christopher Hitchens has died.
Surreal American
@David Richey:
Gee, it’s as if you believe that when the 2012 campaign debates begin in earnest, Obama’s going to attempt to find middle ground with Romney/Gingrich.
Hill Dweller
@ruemara: Thanks for the link. That article states the government can lock up Americans indefinitely without a trial, but is that the case? I can’t seem to find a definitive answer. It is certainly confusing.
elmertfudd
The International Brotherhood of Clowns and Clown Car Drivers need to sue the shoes off the GOP for defamation!
MikeJ
@Dee Loralei: Vanity Fair says it too.
Phoenician in a time of Romans
Surely this has to be a lowpoint in the American experiment.
Ahem. Warren G Harding.
Admittedly, Harding wasn’t faced with the possibility of catastrophic climate change. Or oil running out. Or several nations with nuclear weapons. Or a country paralysed by corporate interests hijacking politics. Or economic inequality leading to a slow slide into feudalism.
But if he HAD been, I don’t think any of the current Republican slate could do any worse than him. Nor much better, alas.
pattonbt
I still think Romney walks away with the R nom. And I agree, while I think in sane times, O wins re-election with, dare I say, Reagan-esque landslide numbers. But times are not sane and with a bad economy, you just never know.
And what will help O the most is the fact the R’s have gone to proportional delegates instead of winner takes all. That could mean that we get the clown show for a much longer time. To me, the R primaries are much more detrimental to the R general election hopes than with D’s (D’s don’t seem to bring the same level of crazy to their primaries). So the more R primaries (and thus debates and commercials) there are, the more they have to bring the crazy and the more the middle gets turned off completely.
At least thats what I hope.
ruemara
@Hill Dweller: It is starting out with an untruth, as the bill has not yet been signed as of now, and this was published on the 14th. It is also not even the same bill. But you would have to not read GG and the Guardian to know that. Disappointing indeed. In fact, one of his sources, the lawfareblog, has a fairly different take on the bill which takes into consideration the edits. I oppose even this edited bill because I don’t see indefinite incarceration as an American virtue. But then, I also know this has been happening to immigrants for years, so WELCOME TO MINORITY STATUS! /snark
MikeJ
@pattonbt: There were actrual policy differences in the Dem primaries. Few differences in goals, but each candidate did have specific ways of achieving those goals that were unique in the race.
Republicans do not tolerate differences. The nail that sticks up gets hammered down.
David Richey
@Surreal American:
No, I fear that rather than repudiate transparent stupidity and beat back the rightward march of the Overton Window and seize the moment to make a principled case for liberal governance, Obama will (once again) try to seem “reasonable” and go for half a loaf.
I suspect Obama will win by default, largely b/c the Republican clown show is so preposterous, but for all me, I’d surely like to see Newt “Bombthrower” Gingrich become the GOP candidate, b/c I suspect it will force Obama to become sharper and more focused in his rhetoric.
But then I’ma name, blame and shame kinda guy. Think one of the many reasons mushy-middle Americans are so confused is b/c as president, Obama has given a walk to the crazy rather than confronting it head-on.
Calouste
@MikeJ:
The Beeb says it as well, and there’s really no way back from there.
Hill Dweller
@pattonbt:
It looks like they’re going to get the unemployment insurance and payroll tax cut extension, which should help the economy some. And the plummet in first time unemployment claims in the last month looks good, even if it is partly seasonal. If people feel like the economy is picking up, the President’s prospects improve greatly.
Unfortunately, the President’s fate could be determined in Europe. If their economies go south, taking us with them, the Republican nominee has a real good shot at being President.
boss bitch
@David Richey:
I have heard from several high profile liberals that Obama has made the case for liberal governance in some of his speeches. I am too tired to find that now but if I had $10,000 every time they did a report on how Obama just made the case or some version of how “Obama gave the speech liberals have been waiting for” I’d be a rich boss bitch right now
people need to fucking listen.
Micheline
I think the GOP’s desire to win will carry them to victory. I see too many Democrats’ lack of enthusiasm that I find it hard for Obama to win. I also think the elites want a Romney win. Add to that, the GOp’s war on voting rights which mostly affect Democratic supporters. There are too many factors that point to Obama’s defeat.
boss bitch
@David Richey:
And I’m damn sick and tired of liberals sitting on their asses waiting for some liberal God to make the case for them. Obama cannot undo decades of complacency and arrogance of the left. Get off your asses and start talking to people outside of your damn circle.
DanielX
@MikeJ: I could have happily spent the rest of my life without that particular image, thankyewverymuch….
Chuck Butcher
What is surreal, John, is that any one of these clowns would poll in the 40’s in a General.
Micheline
I think the GOP’s desire to win and plus the Democrats lack of enthusiasm will be impossible for Obama to win. I also think the elites want a Romney win. Add to that, the GOP’s war on voting rights which mostly affect Democratic supporters will suppress a number of votes for Obama. These factors point to Obama’s defeat.
MikeJ
@Micheline: Meh. There are some rich white Dems that have a lack of enthusiasm. the Dems I talk to every day in real life can not wait vote for Obama again.
Micheline
@boss bitch: Ain’t that truth. What’s even amazing is the left lack of self-awareness.
RossInDetroit
All of the GOP candidates may look like idiots of various stripes to us, but the large mass of Obama haters are looking for something to like there. And they’ll find it somehow.
The GOP could send a random fool off the street to the general election and he’d still pull 30% of the vote because he’s the Not Obama candidate.
I still think Obama will win but I’m not sleeping soundly until it’s in the bag. And past SCOTUS.
The best we can hope for is a GOP candidate so uninspiring that the disaffected, lazy and disappointed among the GOP base stay home and the Dems reap benefits thereby in the down ticket races. That’s the only positive I see in having Mitt as the nominee. The somnolence factor.
David Richey
@boss bitch:
Well, if you’re talking about stuff like “trickle down economics don’t work; never has”; hallelujah. More please, Mr. President.
It’s annoying that it takes President Obama three years of “reasonable” futility and lost opportunities playing patty-cake w/fools, charlatans and liars, including completely misreading the import of the 2010 mid-terms, but some risk averse folks is slow learners.
@boss bitch:
Delighted I could be your designated straw man. It’s clear you needed one.
amk
@Micheline:
Got anything to back it up ? Then we can talk about how obama is toast.
dance around in your bones
I swear, sometimes I think I have gone insane, and then I realize it’s the other guys who are fucking nuts. I gotta stop paying attention to politics.
I blame Obama, or maybe Cole.
Chris
Was the 1996 primary anything like this? I’m too young to remember, but I do know there was a post-1992 freakout similar to the post-2008 one, and an election in 1994 that brought about a Congress as batshit-insane as the 2010 one. Were their primaries also this full of mind-bending horsecrap?
gaz
@Micheline:
They don’t seem that excited about their nominee (Romney) either. They may even be less excited than liberals have been about Obama.
And various republican governors have done a lot of the ground work for obama in key states. Kaich, Walker, Scott – People HATE THEM. Their own constituents HATE THEM. And rather than trying to keep their heads down, they are doubling down on pissing off their constituents.
I don’t think you are looking at the whole picture.
A few other commenters have mentioned the economy, and the conventional wisdom is that the state of the economy dictates the incumbent’s chances. I do think there’s some truth to that.
But a lot of people still recall the bush years – and 2010 was supposed to be this big conservative revival or something. Instead, they just made asses of themselves in front of GOD and everybody for the 2 years since…
This election was the GOP’s to lose. I’ll give you that. But they are doing a fine job of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. Their party looks worse off than the democrats did in 2004 even – by a large margin. It’s in the weeds, off the rails, full bircher wacko. I smell Goldwater.
Brother Shotgun of Sweet Reason
@Chris: No, the ’92 and ’96 primaries were not like this. I’m not only old enough to remember, I’m old enough to have forgotten, but trust me, there has never been a primary with someone like Michelle Bachmann in it before.
gaz
Oh, and when I mention Goldwater, I was more referring to the politics at the time (JBS, etc)
I highly doubt Obama will get a landslide.
Also, we all know that predicting the presidential election results at this stage is a mugs game, but Citizens United makes it especially so, on further reflection. We’ve never been in a position like this before politically, as a country. So I’d stop short of putting money on it.
OTOH, I have the trump card:
Veritas says Romney will win.
Veritas is ALWAYS wrong.
I’m sure you can work out the rest of that equation.
=) hehe
Chris
@gaz:
IMO, 2010 would’ve been a bigger conservative revival without the teabaggers. They had the midterm advantage and a shitty economy backing them. If they’d only run people more in touch with their constituents in the not-so-conservative states, they could’ve retaken the Senate along with the House, but they just had to have their ideological purity, so instead, those states got Christine O’Donnells, and said “thanks but no thanks.”
IOW the Tea Party Movement actually hurt rather than helped the 2010 election campaign.
@Brother Shotgun of Sweet Reason:
Thanks. Well, one can hope there never will be again, but looking at the state of their party, I can’t say I’m an optimist.
Mike in NC
@Hill Dweller:
Please. The winguts (most of whom have never traveled 100 miles from whatever shitpile they were born in) know nothing about Europe except what FOX News tells them: it’s a Sosializt Hellhole and no place where Real Americans would live. Except Mormon missionaries.
gaz
@Chris: I totally agree with you that they are out of touch – and is basically why I believe they can’t beat Obama.
They’re not just out of touch. They’re out of their minds.
FlipYrWhig
The 1992 Dem primaries were full of drama, and were at least at first deemed to have a stature gap (no Mario Cuomo, no Bill Bradley, etc.), but the candidates themselves weren’t crazy people. I mean, for a while the frontrunner was Paul Tsongas.
gaz
@Mike in NC: Even if they can’t point Europe out on a map, our economy will dive along with Europe’s if things come crashing down across the pond.
They won’t need to know about europe. They’ll be plenty aware of the fact that they no longer have jobs, etc.
gaz
@David Richey:
I won’t disagree entirely. But I’m fairly certain that the lion’s share of the blame for what I quoted from you above can be placed squarely at the feet of the zombie corpse of our once noble 4th estate.
The media is not a passive actor. Especially today. It is probably the single most dominant architect of our current political zietgeist.
thymezone
Low point? Meh .
American Civil War.
Soonergrunt
Respectfully, but no. The low point is much closer than that. Some people associated with the yahoos from that Christian paramilitary group in Mississippi calling itself The Savior Unit (or Tactical Support Unit, if you prefer) found Balloon-Juice.
And they are EXACTLY what you would expect. So, being me, I’m poking at them. I know I shouldn’t, but I just can’t help it.
Yutsano
@Soonergrunt: What else are we gonna do? We might not have a job after tomorrow.
Soonergrunt
@Micheline: Ahh. Concern troll is concerned.
darkmatter
Wow. I spent 5 hours watching the end of Star Wars Galaxies instead of watching the debate. Looks like I won tonight.
Soonergrunt
@Yutsano: I know. The upside to that is that we’ll have plenty of time to poke at these morons.
MikeJ
@thymezone:
No, the Civil War was better than the 84 years of slavery before it. At least some of the people that got killed had it coming to them.
Yutsano
@Micheline:
LOLwut?
@Soonergrunt: I love how all the news reports talk like it’s a done deal WHEN THEY HAVEN’T EVEN VOTED YET. All that’s happened is the conferences agreed. That’s it. One douchebag Senator can send this all to hell.
Soonergrunt
@Yutsano: My money’s on Demint.
And honestly, to quote one of our tags, “I wish a motherfucker would!”
It would be great politics for the Dems, with the Repubs throwing the entire federal workforce out on the street the week before Christmas.
Yutsano
@Soonergrunt: I’m thinking Rand Paul because, well, it’s Rand Paul. I don’t have any information on whip counts or anything. I’m just glad I got money to get me through.
Oh and not sure if this affects SSA payouts either. If so there will be blood.
No one of importance
@Angela: Milk, meat, hides and lawnmowing :)
ETA: And companionship!
David Richey
@gaz:
Re: the press corpse, no disagreement there, gaz. Would only sez:
You play it as it lies. That’s the political terrain we find ourselves in, i.e. the establishment media carries water for or propagandizes on behalf of a center-right establishment and the Overton Window marches ever rightward (-tard).
My beef w/Obama is Obama has largely failed to use the presidency as a teaching tool to advocate for liberal governance (until recently, but desperation can be a strong motivator), in marked contrast to Reagan, who, tho’ misguided on manifold issues, never missed a chance to lay bumper-sticker banalities upon the American electorate.
Point being: back in the day, despite the right’s perpetual seige-mentality paranoia and unjustified victimhood, the right always believed, as an article of faith, that they were constantly assailed by a “liberal” media. (If only!)
Reagan successfully “sold” much of the citizenry on simplistic and easily understood conservative principles. Never mind that those conservative “principles” were often wrongheaded and didn’t work, things such as “government is not the solution to the problem, government is the problem; let the markets decide! etc.” became conventional wisdom for many. And still are.
It’s a problem. And one that ain’t been much addressed except obliquely.
I agree that the media is a huge problem. But taking on and repudiating a generation’s worth of conservative “wouldn’t-it-be-pretty-to-think-so” blathering, especially when undertaken by the office of the presidency (thereby emboldening Democrats and liberals to follow suit, b/c they’d know, for once, that Obama had their back) would, in my opinion, go a long way toward killing (or at least neutering) zombie Republican fantasies. And rather than always playing defense, such an aggressive posture would create leftward space to advocate for a muscular liberalism that needn’t apologize for its beliefs or beg for a hearing.
(Talk about wouldn’t it be pretty to think so!)
fwiw, that’s what I was getting at.
Suffern ACE
@Soonergrunt: @Yutsano: I’d throw you out this week, just to go home over the break to brag about it during town hall. Then I’d throw you out again in September until the election was over.
Yutsano
@Suffern ACE: I’m totally okay with this as long as you pay my rent and car payment. Then we got a deal. :)
dogwood
@David Richey:
This sounds great, but all presidents are somewhat restrained in their rhetoric when they speak from behind that presidential seal. What’s going on right now is what happens to all incumbents. A parade of challengers without day jobs or who are ignoring their day jobs, get to spend 24/7 in high gear campaign mode. People don’t really see the incumbent president as a candidate until after the convention. Until then he’s the president and is expected to behave as such. Obama’s taken some shots at the republicans when reporters confront him with some accusation coming out of the clown car. That’s acceptable to the average American; he can defend himself when directly confronted.
What many very savvy people who follow politics and obsess over polls fail to take into account is that the country’s view of a president is measured by 2 polls – job approval and personal approval. The challengers are only measured by personal approval. To say that the President has a 44% job approval and 46 approve of Mitt Romney is, in fact, comparing apples and oranges. If even 50% of voters had a favorable opinion of Romney at this point, he should be shitting his pants. In the summer of ’08, after the candidates were determined, both McCain and Obama had approval ratings in the mid 60’s. They started the process in the 70’s, and on election day not even cranky pants McCain was as low as New and Mitt are right now. If “name, blame, and shame” were as effective as you believe it to be, then Newt, Mitt, Michele, and the Ricks ,who do nothing but that, would be beating Obama right now. It’s a tactic that might work in a primary race to excite the base, but Obama ain’t in a primary race; he’s already running in the general where it has less effect.
‘
ruemara
@David Richey:
I offer you this quote from Obama:
I’m sure this his fault too.
Chuck Butcher
@dogwood:
Since you assert that Pres don’t do this, what was it Raygun was so good at again?
dogwood
@David Richey:
Wow. If Manchin, Landreiu, Tester, Nelson, Wyden etc. only knew the President had their backs they would be emboldened to pursue more liberal positions. The great liberal Russ Feingold by holding to his precious principles refused to sign on to the Financial Reform Bill so it had to be further watered down to get the votes to pass something that would at least start to rectify the problems. Yet the White House still sent Michelle Obama to Wisconsin to campaign and raise money. Having people’s back is a two way street. Since Lyndon Johnson, Democratic presidents have been on their own in the White House. Clinton got a good sense of this when he tried to lift the ban on gays in the military and not even those who probably agreed with him would say a word. They let him be pilloried by Republicans and the press. Obama got his big “fuck you” right off the bat on that 94-6 vote against closing Gitmo. He got another good look early on when Joe Wilson called him a liar during a joint session and Democrats couldn’t muster much outrage. Republicans have been successful in destroying this country because they are tribal and authoritarian. Republicans in Congress always have their president’s back. They have always had a better sense of politics than Democrats. One president having the backs of a few congressmen who refuse to compromise on principle doesn’t change public opinion and doesn’t produce any results. But an entire caucus standing with a president whose holding to a principle makes a big difference. Democrats in Congress are independent contractors who don’t see holding the White House as all that important. To Republicans it’s the holy grail.
Joey Maloney
@Brother Shotgun of Sweet Reason:
Pat Robertson. And he finished second in Iowa in ’88.
NR
@dogwood:
The financial “reform” bill does no such thing. Which is why Feingold was correct to vote against it.
Chuck Butcher
As for Primaries – Geo Wallace…
A Humble Lurker
@NR:
And make it worse ’cause they needed to water it down further to replace his vote?
Schlemizel
John – none of these assclowns has to win, the damage is already done. Look at how little has changed with a Dem in the White House controlling the Senate. Hell, it took them controlling all three branches to be able to pass Bob Doles Healthcare act and that was a close thing.
Sure, we are not going down the shitter as fast but we are still going down it. We need to figure out how to create a Democratic Party again.
amk
@dogwood: This.
Chris
@Joey Maloney:
Oh, that’s not so bad – like Huckabee twenty years later, he ended up third, and both of them lost to perceived moderates (Bush and Dole in 1988, McCain and Romney in 2008). Hence my personal view that the religious right doesn’t have nearly the clout it thinks it does.
RalfW
@ruemara:
Damn right.
El Cid
I don’t think a vote is about my conscience, in general.
It’s a particular point in time — not the only politically significant point in time, but a huge one — in which one chooses between a number of possible options.
Based on the likely outcomes of said vote.
Bill Arnold
@The prophet Nostradumbass:
Also, Goatwalking, which I’ve heard about but have never read.
Though a pastoral nomad can do without the generator, or with a very small one or a solar panel.
The Snarxist Formerly Known as Kryptik
@Schlemizel:
This is honestly what makes me fly into bipolar fits of alternating rage and despair.
I’ve become firmly convinced that no matter who wins what elections, no matter who’s nominally in charge, the GOP has won outright and controls the whole fucking shebang, and nothing is every changing that again ever. The only thing changing is how they flex nuts. Whatever happens, they’ll always end up getting their fucking way because god and America abhors hippies and liberals too much to even think about looking slightly leftward for anything.
zizi2
@David Richey:
Your kind of reasoning is precisely why liberals do not know how to HOLD ON to power when they do get it. The rhetorical bombthrowing you want is the job of a chorus of MOVEMENT leaders, not one President alone. But more importantly rhetorical bombthrowing is only effective if you have structural assets to make good on verbal threats. Wingnuts have structural assets to hold this country hostage, liberals don’t.
What the American Left needed to do after Vietnam war protests was to build Liberal institutional backstoppers and stable of liberal noisemakers. Liberals gave up their airwaves, the rightwing and religious kooks bought them up. Wingnuts used the government to siphon capital out of the treasury into the private hands of political haymakers. Liberals have none of that. Even independently wealthy and billionaire liberals have not made similar investments in a strongly funded liberal political infrastructure.
So here we are with liberals tearing their hair out that President Obama has not played the role of a giant hoover dam able to stop the onslaught of wingnut power. Duh! How many liberals or elected Democrats flood the zone to amplify anything Democrats & this President have achieved? Even when Osama bin Laden was killed which Dem congress person showed up to hog airtime? Not even Kerry. But we saw a parade of neo-con REpugs. Why? because liberals don’t have any structural assets that can put the fear of the lord in anyone.
President Obama is alone in his fight. and it is we who should be ashamed for leaving him out there in lurch to dam this tide. And you want to blame him for not doing it your way?
bcinaz
We have finally arrived at the place George Washington warned us about in his farewell address.
IrishGirl
Goats, really? I would have thought a cow would be a better investment…then again, they need more grass.
Liz
All’s I know is I haven’t watched one minute of any of these debates live, nor have I ever seen a single assemblage like the ones that have been on stage during these debates. Was a time when maybe there was one or maybe two kinda zany (to use the more popular term these days) candidates on stage; now the whole crew fits in the clown car.
I’d laugh but it makes me want to cry.
mclaren
At this point, safe to say that whatever the hypothesis behind the American experiment, it has been disconfirmed.
FlipYrWhig
@mclaren: Hey, that’s a pretty good line!
Nemesis
Although the gop clown car is badly dented, weaving wildly and running on fumes, the vast majority of real Murkans are too busy with important dialy activities to notice.
The fact is many Murkans possess a strong dislike for logic and reason, hence, presidential debates matter less than what we are told by pundits that the debates mean for us.
With a wee bit o’ vote suppression in critical states, a whipping up of the frenzied gop base with needless get-out-the-vote-evagelical-core-values oriented ballot measures, the election could be much closer than many expect.
Few agree with my assessment: Its needs to get a whole lot worse, before it gets any better.
This country is but one juicy Obama Admin scandal from making sweeping changes in gummit.
A wise doctor lady once told me not to worry over politics. It comes in roughly 8-10 year cycles. One party, then the next-hardly distinguishable from each other when viewed over time.
dogwood
@zizi2:
You said this much better than I did earlier. Polling this morning reveals that the President’s personal approval stands at 76%. I mean WTF. How hard can it be to stand up for a guy with numbers like that? There’s no downside. The war in Iraq is over and the neocons take stage to call the President a traitor. Democrats should be bludgeoning Republicans right now with John McCain’s heinous remarks on the floor of the Senate. In terms of the “war on terror”, “keeping America safe” blah, blah, blah, POTUS is in the 60’s. Unfortunately, as usual they ceded all the ground to the enemy. Congressional approval keeps sinking, but by a margin of 2-1 the public blames Republicans. In response to that Wyden signs on to kill Medicare.
We had a “name, blame, and shame” candidate in 2008. His name was John Edwards, and luckily for the party the David Richey wing didn’t prevail.
Chris
@zizi2:
In order to sustain these sorts of institutions, you need money.
For conservatives, not a problem: a party that dedicates itself soul and body to cutting taxes, regulations and restrictions of all forms on the richest Americans as much as possible will never have a shortage of money. As you can tell from the last forty years.
For liberals, well, it’s not as easy to create our own competing powerhouses. Organized labor and urban machines used to be the main institutions that sustained Democrats, but both those things are a shadow of their former selves, and both of them weren’t necessarily favorable to the causes of the post-1960s left (if memory serves, the unions and machines split with the New Left over Vietnam, for example).
So, where do we go from here? Rebuild those institutions? Build some new ones? Both?
David Richey
@zizi2:
@dogwood:
Your mutual self-regard must make you both rather difficult to live with, I’d imagine. Plus bonus points for lecturing me about rationales that you both impute onto me w/o justification. (As it happens, I agree w/zizi about the dearth of liberal backstops, but that is the field as it stands.)
Is it your mutual opinion that President Obama shouldn’t inform the gullible American electorate that trickle down economics does not and never has worked? Is that your point? Or that the free-market fairy stripped of all oversight and regulation has more in common with the Tooth Fairy than sound economic policy? Is that your point?) But hey, you both hadda hobbyhorse you wanted to ride and by gum, you rudely accomplished your objective.
Oh, and dogwood’s contradicting its own point in the very same post (#125) takes a certain showy flair for the unselfaware that achieves a kind of grandiose hypocrisy in its own sweet way. Nice work. (You’d prolly feel foolish if you were capable of recognizing it.)
dogwood
@David Richey:
I
There’s nothing in either post you are responding to that even remotely suggests the President shouldn’t inform the public of the failure of Republican philosophy on every level. I certainly wouldn’t call you unselfaware , however. I believe you are fully aware that you are misrepresenting the posts.
Thymezone
@MikeJ:
No matter how I slice it, that is one stupid comment.